Our Girls Play Hockey - Cassie Campbell-Pascall on The PWHL's Growth and Future

Lee MJ Elias [0:08 - 0:41]: Hello, hockey friends and families around the world. And welcome back to another episode of our Girls Play Hockey. I'm Lee Elias and I'm joined by Mike Benelli and Sherry Husband. You know, when it comes to guests, the shorter the intro, usually the more incredible the guest, and we have one of those today. Joining us today is the former captain of Team Canada who's part of multiple gold medal performances in multiple Olympics and World championships. She is a trailblazer in the world of hockey broadcasting and recipients of the Order of Canada. We are honored to have Cassie Campbell Pascal on the show today. Cassie, welcome to our Girls Play Hockey. 

Cassie Campbell [0:41 - 0:47]: Thanks. I'm honored to be part of this. So it's mutual feelings, I guess. Mutual feelings I appreciate. 

Lee MJ Elias [0:48 - 0:51]: We don't quite have the Order of Canada here yet, but we can dream. 

Cassie Campbell [0:52 - 0:59]: It's just a pin, you know, it's a little pin you get. No, obviously it was cool honor, but yeah, I'm just. Cassie. 

Sheri Hudspeth [0:59 - 2:12]: Cassie, excited for you to be here. I'm a former Arrows alumni. I played growing up playing Toronto Junior Arrows before I went to school. So I've watched you for a long time since you're playing defense. So I've been a big, big fan of your playing career and you professionally working around the NHL for a very long time. So today we're going to throw it back a little bit before we get to where we, you know, where we are today. And with the PWHL, I'm going way back. I'm going Toronto Arrows, 1999-2000. And I want to talk about this roster here for a second. And the old NWHL has Geraldine Heaney, Angela James, Cassie Campbell, Sherry Piper, Becky Keller, Cheryl Pounder. In goal, we got Kendra Fiser J or Jillian Ferrari. Just a wagon, wagon, wagon of a team. And so what I want to get to is, you know, I played on the Janeiro, so Ken Duff and, you know, call us up for practices and games when people were out. But at that time, like when you guys were practicing at the old, old York University in the Ice palace with this roster and the names and where you guys ended up, hall of Fame's arenas named after you. At that time in 1999, could you sense how special that roster was? 

Cassie Campbell [2:13 - 4:15]: Yeah, I think so. I think, you know, I played for the Mississauga Chiefs and then eventually was asked to come play for the Arrows. And, you know, the Arrows organization at that time just sort of had this aura about it. You know, they had the leather jackets and, you know, the late Colin McKenzie, who I know, you know, Big Guy, we called him, you know, really wanted his vision was professional women's hockey. And so he made that organization as professional as possible. And you know, you list some of those names and I can add Amanda Benoit, I could add Summer West, Summer west, you know, players that were right on the cusp of making the national team and so good. And you know, Natalie Rivard comes to mind. You know, so many names that played for the Arrows organization and you know, I don't know, I think we always had a vision of where hockey would go and what we wanted to see happen. And, you know, that was an organization that, you know, much like the Edmonton Chimos here out west, you know, sort of were two organizations that were the foundation of women's hockey and elite level women's hockey and sort of the vision of being professional. And you know, those are teammates that when I hear those names, they just make me smile. You know, they're a big part of my life. And Kenny was one of the best coaches I ever had. And you know, you know, I still keep in touch, you know, with, with Big Guy's family to this day. And, you know, we'll get to see Heen and AJ Every once in a while. And I can't remember if that was the year we won or we lost, but I remember there was one year where I actually was moving out west and we lost and I decided to go back and stay with the Arrows because I wanted to win with that group and Ange and I were co captains and we ended up winning the SO Nationals and eventually I moved back, you know, officially out west where my boyfriend, now husband was at the time and. But I did come out here for a summer, then went back because we didn't win. So I wanted to go back and finish my career there. Them and geez, the Arrows as you know, like, it's such, it's a huge organization in the history of women's hockey. 

Sheri Hudspeth [4:15 - 4:25]: Just even on this roster they have the juniors, me being one of them, but the ones that were just, you know, a couple games. Nicole Corriero, Heather Logan, like, people that just. You. 

Cassie Campbell [4:26 - 4:54]: Yeah, yeah, I, I only got to play with Heather Logan. I think maybe one year, two years. Like, I don't know how long we crossed over actually as being teammates, but I remember her, she could run. Like we would do fitness testing with the national team and like, I was usually one of the first ones finished in the running and all of a sudden Heather Logan comes along. I'm like, who the heck's this kid? You know, and yeah, just so many great players I think that came up through that organization, whether it was the Junior Arrows or the senior team. 

Lee MJ Elias [4:55 - 5:10]: Well, I'm going to make this note here. We've done several of these shows. Sherry, this is the first time I've seen you fan out a bit and I like it. I like seeing it. We can tell. I'm going to fan out a little bit too though. So I want to keep in the 1900s, late 1900s, as my son and daughter. 

Cassie Campbell [5:10 - 5:13]: What are you trying to say? I'm old. Like you gotta go back that far. 

Lee MJ Elias [5:14 - 5:21]: I'm in the late 1900s as well for some reason that the kids today are calling it that and it's just as they would say, it's cringe. 

Cassie Campbell [5:21 - 5:22]: Right. 

Lee MJ Elias [5:22 - 5:36]: But let's go back to the 90s for a minute here because your special advisor to the pwhl. Now I'm curious of if we can connect your experience from that time period. We'll say that time period of hockey. 

Cassie Campbell [5:36 - 5:37]: Back in the day. 

Lee MJ Elias [5:37 - 5:38]: I like it. 

Cassie Campbell [5:38 - 5:39]: I like where we're going. 

Lee MJ Elias [5:39 - 6:12]: Right. Of, of how that has a. Influenced you as a special advisor today. But also I would love if you could give the listeners, especially the young girls and young boys, perspective of what it was like to be playing hockey in that league at that time. Because obviously we've grown. Things have changed. I love that you mentioned that you loved it so much you wanted to go back. I, I think that is one of the most underestimated compliments in the world for a team when you want to go back. Right. But talk to us about. Yeah, the, the hockey in the 90s and, and then how that is assisting you in your role today. 

Cassie Campbell [6:13 - 6:44]: Well, it was pretty darn good, I gotta tell you. It's just, you know, our parents and our grandparents showed up to watch us and that was kind of about it. But man, like it was great hockey. You know, I think of all Kelly Weaver and Carol Cooper and Heather Ginzel and Andrea Hunter, you know, so many names. Karen Nystrom, like, we, we had a lot of great players that we played against and if you were on the national team and you played in our club system, you probably played 65 plus games a year. 

Lee MJ Elias [6:44 - 6:44]: Wow. 

Cassie Campbell [6:44 - 9:55]: And people didn't realize that like it was professional without the compensation and, but man, there was so much talent and for me it was sort of the no name and I hate to call them that, but the depth players that made our league so, so good. Like they were, you know, teachers and firefighters and doctors by day and then amazingly crazy good Hockey players by night, you know, and really good, really dedicated. Everyone was full training, you know, just like the men and sometimes with the guys. You know, I know I trained in Ontario and I was there with some of the NHL players and, you know, just it was same, but it wasn't the same. You know, we just didn't have sort of the publicity around it. And, you know, we really haven't had that since last year. If you think about it, you know, NCAA is a bit different. You know, I think, you know, that's a whole machine, right, that really promotes the women's game. But we never really had the fans and the. And more importantly, I think the infrastructure. We had the fans, they just didn't know how to watch us, but we didn't have the infrastructure. And I think that's where I've seen a really big difference. Where, you know, when I was part of the Canadian Women's Hockey League or the NWHL or whatever the leagues were called, kowa back in the day, you know, we had maybe one paid employee and then all of us were volunteers. And you know, in particular Canadian Women's Hockey League, it was our commissioner and executive assistant and then the board and 100 volunteers. And now what we're seeing is each team has this, its own staff. We have league staff. I believe we have over 120 people working for the PWHL and I think that's a minimal number. So you're seeing this machine that is helping grow the game. So even in the summertime, you know, it's not, you're not just seeing the Sarah Nurses or the Mary Philippe Lands or the Nally Spooners or the Hillary Knights or the Kendall Coin School fields anymore. You know, you're seeing more deaf players get appearances and get marketing opportunities. And that is a result of the PWHL machine. You know, our female hockey players don't go to the ESPYs without the connections of our head of business ops in Amy Scheer. You know, so we just have such a great staff. And one thing that strikes me with the PWHL is a staff that doesn't care who gets the credit. And we have a group of players that know where the game has come from, understand the traditions, understand that it's important to sign every autograph still. You know, obviously the product on the ice speaks for itself and it's going to be even, you know, bigger and better in year two. But I just think collectively as a group of women's hockey, we are finally together, which for so many years we were sort of separated and everyone kind of doing their own thing and there's no one to blame. But, you know, until we were going to work as sort of one entity, it was never really going to work. And so finally we have that and it's working. And, you know, we have a lot of work to do in here, too. But, you know, we were just as professional without the pay back then. Like, we worked our butts off and every player, whether you were a national team player or not, and, you know, so the tradition is carried on, for sure. 

Lee MJ Elias [9:55 - 10:03]: No, I love that you. You speak about that too, because I think there is a misconception that it was the wild, wild west during that time. 

Cassie Campbell [10:03 - 10:05]: Well, we were wild out here in the West. Don't. 

Lee MJ Elias [10:06 - 10:28]: Yeah, well, in some ways, sure. But look, the framework for what we today is always built on successes and failures of the past. Right. And you're a trailblazer within that world, as are all the women that you mentioned there. Right. It's just really cool to be in that place right now. We are going to get back to that later in the episode, but I'll throw it over to Mike now because I know we want to continue. 

Mike Bonelli [10:29 - 11:16]: Yeah, no, no, but I mean. Well, you're right in. You're speaking about, you know, a program that you've seen now grow from the very early stages. Right. And the importance of players and. And personnel within the organizations, helping the organization grow. Can you just talk a little bit about, like, the next stage then? Right, that, that stage that you're in now, which you're. You're basically an ambassador to the sport for. And just the impact, you know, on. On how female ambassadors play in the growth and for boys and girls. Right. In the growth of women's hockey and how, you know, people like yourself and the, you know, we'll call it the trailblazers of. Of the female women's hockey world. Just how important is that ambassadorship and the role that you play now? 

Cassie Campbell [11:17 - 14:32]: Well, you can call us the old dogs. It's okay. You know, like, for me, I'm excited now in my role. I don't person anymore. Like, for years and years and years, I sort of had to be that spokesperson of the game. So when anything was going on, it was like, oh, let's call Cassie. She'll, you know, she'll answer her phone. And. And I kind of felt like I had to just for the sake of growing the game. And, you know, that, you know, there was a few other, you know, big names, you know, The Wickenheisers and St. Pierre and Carolyn Willett in Quebec and Cami Granado, you know, comes to mind in the US but generally people would be like, oh, well, let's, let's. Cassie knows what's going on. And so I'm excited that I don't have to be that kind of person anymore. Like I can just sort of sit behind the scenes and just be like, oh, this is happening, you know, and, and so I want to be behind the scenes. Like I, you know, I'm the special advisor, but. And people think that's an ambassador role and there's no question that's one of my jobs. But I helped start our player safety committee. I'm, you know, part of our, we have a rules and competition committee that we started this summer. You know, I'm, I'm heading to Montreal for the mini camps coming up. You know, I traveled around a little bit last year, just sort of, you know, seeing games and Jana Hefford, who's my former teammate and friend, is my boss. And so, you know, I was at IHF meetings at the women's World championship. She asked me to be there. It's a part time role and I've asked her, you know, I don't want to travel. That's one of the things I'm really trying to take off my plate. You know, I hit the 2 million mile mark and I get this email and it kind of is this eye opening experience of like, what the heck. So I'm trying to eliminate my travel and be home a lot more, which is really important to me, especially having a teenage daughter and a husband who works in hockey as well. So, you know, giving back to him in his career. But I know my role as an ambassador of the game, there's like, I get it, but I'm so glad that I don't necessarily have to do it as much as I used to. And you know, now all these young players, that's one thing I'm so proud of them is how they stuck together through thick and thin and made this happen. But I watch them and I just, they don't miss an autograph. They, they understand their role of doing certain things and at the same time I'm also proud of them that they're getting so much from it. You know, they're like more and more girls are getting sponsors and opportunities and speaking and they deserve it. And I think that's something that makes me really proud too. And I might can kind of sit back now and just, okay, what do I want to do. I don't have to do anything as much as I used to. What do I want to do? And, you know, staying with espn, leaving Hockey Night and sportsnet, you know, just to slow down and keep the pace a little bit more reasonable for me and. And then joining this league, like I wanted to be part of it. How can I help? How can I make it better? And we know, like, we had a great success in year one, but we still have a long ways to go. You know, we got to keep this machine going and we got to keep the fans coming in and buying tickets and merchandise and. And we've got to make the product continue to make it better and better. And so that's our goal. And we just know that we're not going to sit back and rest on the exception. We really want to push it and make it better in year number two. 

Sheri Hudspeth [14:33 - 14:52]: I think growing up, I was pretty lucky to have players like yourself and just being around the organization in that rink with the Junior Arrows, having a lot of female role models and at that time, too, Manal Reum, looking at her. When you were growing up, did you have any female role models that you looked up to or any players that were women players that you wanted to aspire or model your game after? 

Cassie Campbell [14:52 - 17:02]: You know, not really, because we never saw them. Right. But, you know, my mom. My mom was an athlete and she played softball and she was into question riding. And so I got to watch her sort of firsthand be sort of that athletic mom, you know. But I remember when I was 16, Sherry, and the 1990 World Championships had just happened, and I was playing at the Brampton Candidates Tournament, which I know you're familiar. Yeah, it was. It's like the biggest tournament, basically, and it's amazing. And you get to play teams from all different countries and, and. And some of those players, Angela James, Laura Schuler, you know, there was a whole bunch of them that came, that 1990 team, basically the Ontario ones, and they signed autographs for us. And I remember that I was 16 years old, and I remember like, holy wow. They played for Team Canada. Like, I didn't even know you could do that, right. And I remember watching that final game on tsn, they had the pink uniforms, and that was really, you know, it sort of gave me something to aspire to. And then right around that time, the Canada Winter Games was announced, the first ever one in 1991. And I was able to play for Team Ontario for that. And then, then we're finding out we can go to the Olympics and then all this stuff. So my idols end up. You know, my idol was Paul Coffee. That's who I saw on Saturday nights. Right. It was. He's why I wore 7 and 77. But as I learned, you know, Angela James, Geraldine Haney, Heather Ginzel, Shirley Cameron, you know, Sue Shear. Sue Shear was my coach at the University of Guelph. A lot of people don't know this. I almost quit hockey to play basketball my second year university, and she became our coach my second year, and that's what kept me playing the game. And she was the first ever captain for Team Canada and a huge part of my life and my success. And so once you got to know them and see them, you know, then they became obviously great role models. But growing up, it was Paul Coffey for me, just because that's who I saw. Right. That was really. I didn't see a lot of females growing up playing the game. 

Mike Bonelli [17:02 - 17:53]: Yeah, I mean, I think, obviously. I mean, when I. When I speak to somebody like Wally Kosak, who we know, and he talks about you, he says you're the best captain ever. Like, so you obviously were a role model for so many other people as well, in. In your role. And I think it's like. So when you see, as Sherry was saying, you know, who are the people that influenced you? I think, you know, for anybody, you know, listening, it's. It's not always about the skill of another player. It's the way other people carry themselves, the way other people speak to the media, the way other captains were, you know, that you were around great athletes, were in the locker room, maybe not scoring big goals and making big saves, but how they conducted themselves. You know, now in the pwa, we'll call professionally. Right. But that. That role model piece is, you know, really important, I think, for all of our girls listening. 

Cassie Campbell [17:53 - 17:53]: Right. 

Mike Bonelli [17:53 - 18:00]: Because it really stems from the people in your orbit and not just the people that are the great hockey players in your team. 

Cassie Campbell [18:01 - 19:42]: Yeah. I think that 2002 group, and there's so many other ambassadors, you didn't just have to play for the national team to be a role model for so many, but that 2002 group in Canada and even in the United States, but we were able to win that year. And that group of women that I played with, I don't know if there's another generation. I know there's people from another generation that have done so much, but I think that team in particular, what they did for our game up here in Canada with their hockey schools, with their Ambassadorship with just how great they were and giving back to the game, you know, not only in their own little communities or provinces, but across the country. And they still do like, you know, now we're seeing Becky Keller in television and pounds and, you know, bots the same thing. And, you know, I'm trying to, like, Charisse Brissell is giving back to Alpine Canada's head of Alpine Canada. And Colleen Stores is doing amazing thing coaching in. In. In Saskatchewan. You know, we watch Wick with the Leafs, Goyettis with the Leafs. You know, the list of accomplishments that most of these women, what Caro is doing in Montreal and Quebec, they've done so much for the game, that group in particular, and that was such a great team, and we shouldn't have even won. And it was such a great team. Like the US should have beat us. They'd beaten us eight times in a row, and we finally beat them in the ninth game in the gold medal game. But I just think that was a really special group. And I honestly believe from all the teams that I've played on, that one particular team has probably given back the most to the game and I think be above and beyond the gold medal. That's what they should be most proud of. 

Lee MJ Elias [19:43 - 20:50]: You know, Cassie, before. Before I ask my next question, which is about your work off the ice, I want to keep it on the ice for one more minute. We talk a lot on this show about the power of somebody seeing something for the first time. So while I love that your role model was Paul Coffey, that makes perfect sense. And this is not. This is not limited to women. This could be on a lot of different fronts. Until you see it for the first time, it can be a different perspective. Right. For example, we're entering a time now where my daughter and son, professional women's hockey is a thing. It's just a thing. It exists. Right. You talk about the teams that you played on that push that gamut forward. Can you talk to the audience about the power of seeing something to believe something for the first time? Right. And again, you're in the trailblazer class, in my opinion of the. You had to break through. Right. To get us to where we're at today. But there is a truth in this, right, that. That, you know, a young girl today that sees professional women's hockey now understands that that is a possibility. Right. Is there an importance behind that? 

Cassie Campbell [20:51 - 23:32]: Well, and I think the parents see it, too. Right? The parents see it, too. And then they're. They're not only Putting their. Their sons in hockey, which is obviously a great thing, but they're putting their daughters in hockey. Right. Like, I. My generation and the generation before me didn't necessarily see it. And yet we still found a way to sort of do it. Because we knew it was healthy for us. We knew it was a great sport to play. We obviously had people around us that supported us, which was so important. You know, my parents put me in figure skating, of course, because that's what little girls did back then. And I just kept, you know, I want to play. I want to play. My brother plays. I want to play. And there was one girl on my brother's team who I've actually connected with, you know, recently, which is kind of so cool. And her name is Jennifer Minkus. And she went on to play at Harvard, but she ended up playing soccer and tennis. Because hockey wasn't as big back then. But yet she was still a great hockey player. And, you know, but I saw her play, and that was my last argument to my parents. Well, Jennifer plays, like, why. There is something to it, for sure. See it, you know, to be it. But I also think that my generation, the generation before me, love the game. And we loved it so much that even when you would walk into an arena and you'd hear, oh, little girls shouldn't play hockey, like, you'd hear it, you'd hear the whispers, and you'd compartmentalize it in the back of your brain, and it served as motivation. You still wanted to play because you love the game. And I think that sort of is what. What makes the so special in the sense that they love the game and push through it. All kinds of adversity without being paid, without any sort of extras on top of it. And. And. And, you know, we didn't see it right, but yet we still did it. And so there's something to be said about finding a dream and sticking to it. And even when so many people are telling you it's impossible. But now I think essential to growth of the sport Is how much the people can see it now. You know, with the pwhl, we had all our games on television. We had our. We have our own YouTube channel. You know, we have exciting TV rights announcement that. That'll come out in due time. I can't tell you on this show, it's not. Not my role. But, you know, there's just so many great things happening. And the fact that I go out now, and even though we don't have a team out west and little kids are like, oh, my kids that I coach. Did you see the game last night? Did you see the game last night? I'm like, yeah, I did. Did you? And they're like, yeah, I did. And like, that's. That is so key, is that we're showcasing these amazing women and how great players they are, and it's paying results as far as our grassroots side of things. 

Lee MJ Elias [23:32 - 23:36]: I cannot believe that you would deny us breaking news on this show with that broadcast. 

Cassie Campbell [23:36 - 23:40]: I got these things, and I'm like, no, no, no. 

Lee MJ Elias [23:40 - 23:46]: No worries at all. I actually, to be fair, this airs. I think that news will be out already. So we're just feel special that you hinted. 

Cassie Campbell [23:47 - 23:48]: Right. 

Lee MJ Elias [23:49 - 24:15]: So sticking on these lines. Right. Again, taking it off the ice. Now, you've had an incredible broadcast career. You're the first woman ever to do commentary on hockey night in Canada. So there's another glass ceiling that. That you broke. Right. You trailblazed for us. Maybe again, nobody had seen it till you had done it. Right. So why don't you take us through that and how others can follow suit kind of with the understanding of, hey, there's a lot of ways to be involved in the game aside from just playing. 

Cassie Campbell [24:16 - 28:28]: Yeah. You know, when I retired, I think like most athletes, you know, I had an education, University of Guelph. That's why I'm wearing the Guelph Griffins hat. But I. I wasn't sure what I wanted to do, and I had dabbled in broadcasting, and at the same time, I was kind of thinking, I'll just take some time off and maybe go travel. And I was recently married at that point when I retired, and we didn't have kids, so we had a little bit more flexibility. And then all of a sudden, hockey night came, and I ended up having to do an audition for them. And my second day on the job, I'm thrown up into the booth, and that's where I wanted to be. I mean, as a hockey player, you want to be an analyst whether you're a man or you're a woman. I never thought, like, I was like, oh, why are they calling me? Like, this guy must be drinking on the other side or something? And. But it was Joel Darling, and he's like, yeah, we want it. We want you to come work with us, you know, and, you know, my first game is the Battle of Alberta, which is so huge out here. And, well, it's huge everywhere, but it's intense. And, you know, then my second game is Calgary at Toronto, which is an all Canadian matchup, which is numbers. And there I am up in the booth with Bob Cole, and, you know, there's a whole long story to how. How it all went down that probably this. But, you know, it's interesting. Like, I just. I know it was a man's world. I felt it. I was told about it. But I. I've never approached life like, oh, it's such a man's world. Like, people ask me how you survived in a man's world. No, like, I'm a woman, and I'm just living in my own little world, and men are in it. But I'm. I've never limited myself thinking, oh, well, I can't do that. I've never seen a woman do that before. I can't do that. Like, I've always just approached life, jump in. Like, just what. Just jump in, you know, and just have fun with it. And, you know, the criticism for sure came. It's different hearing a woman's voice on Hockey Night in Canada, and you're replacing Harry Neal that particular night, who'd never missed a game in 35 years. And him and Bob, we all grew up with. So it was a bit strange. But, you know, my colleagues were so supportive of me and most of the men, but behind the scenes, so many tremendous women, too. And it. Yeah, I just. That's sort of always been my approach. It's just an opportunity comes. I don't think about, oh, has a woman ever done this before? Like, I'm like, no. Is it a good opportunity for me in my life? Yep. Here we go. And, you know, I think being a trailblazer, if you want to call it that, being the first to do something, it always comes with a tremendous amount of scrutiny and, you know, like, Jess Campbell becoming the first female NHL head coach. And I saw a reputable journalist from Canada say to her in an interview, you know, I hope you don't mind me saying this, but it just seems really weird that you're out there. And I thought to myself, we're in 2024, and you still think it's weird. Like. And you're a reputable journalist. You know, like, everyone just shake your head. So, like, there's still. There's still a lot of firsts that can happen, I think, for women in our game. And when you're the first, it comes with just layers, right? It comes with a lot of layers, but I. I wouldn't change it for the world. And I think what makes me more. More proud right now is just seeing how many more females are in the NHL, calling games. And I think to myself, if I would have said no, you know, way back October 2006, where would we be if I just stayed as a reporter, where would we be as women hockey. Women's hockey players? And I don't know, someone else would have come along, but I'm so glad I said yes. And it's been such a fun ride. And, you know, now being with espn, it's been so much fun. It's so different. I get to call different games. I get to be in Vegas, you know, I mean, I'm in Vegas December 3rd, Edmonton at Vegas this year, which is really cool. That was for you, Sherry. And you know. Yeah. Like, I don't. You just. I don't know. I'm proud now of so many women that are doing it, and it's perfect for me. 

Lee MJ Elias [28:28 - 29:18]: Well, Cassie, I do want to say you are a trailblazer in that. Right. And that I'm sure that whenever you're the first at something in the moment, you might not feel the impact that you just described, but it's there. Right. And I'm proud that my son and daughter see you and see this and it's completely part of what's normalized today. It is far too late to be fair. This should have been done a long time ago. But I love that. I also want to say this, too. We've been doing this show for four years, and this is why I love having Canadians on the show, because the open to the show. I say, hello, hockey friends and families around the world, which you'll know is a shout out to Foster Hewitt and everyone that has served at Hockey Night in Canada as someone who's just always loved that broadcast. So I know Sherry has a question for you. I just want to say that I love that because it encompasses everything and what that stood for just after. 

Sheri Hudspeth [29:18 - 29:46]: Yeah, Cassie's last bit there. I just came up with a question, and I know Jess Campbell here from Coachella, and she's put the time in, right? Like, she's rode the bus. She's. She's done the work the same as the exact same as the men, you know, like the same path that Sheldon Keith took to the bench. She's. She's taken the same exact path. She's coached men's hockey in Europe. She's coached in the ahl. She went to the, you know, the finals, and then she got hired as an assistant coach. It's not like she was just thrown on as a head coach. As a. 

Cassie Campbell [29:46 - 29:47]: She's amazing. 

Sheri Hudspeth [29:47 - 29:58]: Yeah. She's Incredible. She's done the work. And I, you know, I was really excited for her first game and watched that. And then what I also do watch, though, is the Twitter comments. You know, on. On some of the Twitter comments. 

Lee MJ Elias [29:58 - 30:00]: Why do you do that? Why do you do that? 

Sheri Hudspeth [30:00 - 30:04]: Insane. No, I just, I want to ask, you know, Cassie, like, if it's fair. 

Lee MJ Elias [30:04 - 30:05]: I'll just tease you, Sherry. 

Sheri Hudspeth [30:05 - 30:32]: It's still crazy in 2024. Some of the comments that are just wild. And then like she said, like, professional news outlets, some of the questions that they ask or the way they frame them, it's still kind of sad and I still think we have a long way to go. But just wondering, like, when you first started, this is just out of my own personal curiosity. Did you ever read, like, the comments, did anything ever really get to you about being women in sports and doing the broadcasting, or just ignore the naysayers and just keep going? 

Cassie Campbell [30:32 - 35:03]: Yeah. I remember when I first started, I don't even know if Twitter existed. Like, I'm old Cherry. So, like. But I remember there was a gentleman by the name of William Houston, and he used to write, I think it was for the Globe Mail, and he sort of critiqued broadcasting. That was his thing. And my first game was the Battle of Alberta, and the review was just like, it was brutal, which is fine, and nothing against him. But then my second time, when I got thrown into color, he actually took the time, you know, it was interesting. The next day I had promised to take my nieces to a pumpkin patch in Milton when this happened. And I had like news outlets calling and connecting and. And I just said, I'm sorry, I can't do it today. Like, I. I am with my twin nieces and we are going to the pumpkin patch. And they're like, did you not realize? And I'm like, I don't care. I can do it on the next day. I can do it Monday. I can do whatever we need on Monday. But William Houston was the one. I actually answered the call and I did an interview with him and he wrote this really glowing article about me and then proceeded every article after that to write a nasty one. But I think I got used to that kind of criticism right from the get go from being a kid. Like, we, we heard it as little girls, the snickers in the room as we walked in, the snickers on the ice, the comments. We heard those things, like we weren't oblivious to them. So. But I think I developed sort of a thick skin, you know, during COVID I think was the hardest just because everyone was sitting at home and we were all learning about these social issues and racism and, and there was so much talk about all this stuff, and, you know, it was overwhelming, right? About analyzing yourself, like, what am I learning about racism? What am I learning about ageism? All these things that were sort of out there in our faces. And I took it on the chin, for sure, but it was like I was being lumped into this new diversity thing that was going on. Yet I'd been on the Air Force, you know, I don't know, at that point, like, 12, 14 years. So there's no question I took it on the chin. I, I did learn, Sherry, that I, I never read the comments because I only care about what is happening. Like, you know, I've. I've been radioed before. You know, I was talking about Connor and Matthews, and we were talking about the defensive side of the game, and I, at that point, this was, you know, a couple years or so ago, I said that Auston Matthews has surpassed McDavid, but we were talking about the defensive side of the game. And yet there's on top of the Twitter, Campbell Pascal Matthews surpasses McDavid. Well, then, you know, it just. They don't listen to the actual interview. That's how the Twitter world is. We just read the title that gets the clicks. And I just. I've just learned to kind of laugh at it. You know, I've been harassed. I've been sexually harassed. I've been. You name it. Things have happened. But I, I just learned to realize that if you have the time of day to go on social media and criticize people, you have a pretty sad life. And what. You know, and that's the way I've kind of approached it. Like, hey, you can critique me for what I've said in my opinion, but anything else above and beyond that, I think is offside. And I've just learned to kind of, if I see it, I just kind of learned to laugh about it. But I, I also don't go looking for it either. I don't read other people's comments that they get on different things. I don't. I don't look up my name and see what's being said. I just. I've just learned to kind of roll with it. It's part of the business and, you know, it's interesting. I'm going out for dinner. I'm doing a game in Seattle coming up, and I'm going to go out for dinner with. With Jess and And it's, for me, it's just a check in. How you doing, kid? Like, you know, and, and I think it's important that we as women do those check ins for each other. Like just, hey, how's things going? You doing okay? I'm here for you, you know, and I think we've learned to do a better job at that as women too, to each other. And I think that's really important. And yeah, you just, whatever. It, it doesn't affect my life. I don't know the person that's tweeting, they don't come to my home for dinner. I don't go to their house for dinner. So their significance of it all is. It's insignificant, you know, And I think they're dying for you to click them. 

Mike Bonelli [35:04 - 35:05]: Yeah, they want. 

Cassie Campbell [35:05 - 35:50]: Some of my colleagues do. And I just, I just choose not to. I just choose to live my life and have a good time. And, you know, it, it's just the one Matthews McDavid one was kind of irked me because then people in my, on my own business were saying, and so they obviously didn't listen to the interview. They were using that clickbait title as something to talk about on their newscast. And I'm just like, guys, do your research. Actually listen to it, you know, and, and I love both Auston Matthews and Conor McDavid. And I do think Conor McDavid is the best player in the world. There's no question about it. But at that time, defensively, it wasn't that way. And yet he, that summer was asked what did he work on in his game, his defensive side of the game, and yet no one talks about that. 

Lee MJ Elias [35:50 - 35:57]: You know, now we have the Twitter handle that, that Cassie has said McDavid is the best player in the game. 

Cassie Campbell [36:01 - 36:02]: What's going on? 

Lee MJ Elias [36:02 - 36:03]: She changed her mind. 

Sheri Hudspeth [36:03 - 36:06]: I got our girls play hockey, but. 

Cassie Campbell [36:06 - 36:47]: Men and women get it, you guys, you know that, right? Like all my colleagues and all the people at ESPN that I know, they all get it and it is just part of it. And you do have to learn to deal with it. And, you know, some people just mute it, some people don't block it. You know, whatever. If anyone gets aggressive, I, I mute them just because I don't block them. I don't want to give them that satisfaction. But I do mute them just because it's not even. It's. It's scary, right? So then you're like, this guy's a little scary. So I just kind of meet that guy and I've had a Few of those. But it is what it is. It's just part of the business. We in the world, we live in these states. 

Lee MJ Elias [36:47 - 37:43]: You know, Cassie, I do want to say this, too, and Sherry, I know you'll appreciate this. Not in any way am I comparing my career to your career. Really, I'm not. But one of my favorite quotes was from George McPhee, who, you know, good company here on this show, right. He had said, you know, if they knew anything about the game, they'd be in the game. And when I heard him say that, I didn't. I didn't take that so much as a clapback for me as, you know, someone in broadcasting. I was like, you know what? I'm gonna get in the game. Right? And I've kind of taken that with me along my journey in hockey of. I'm not worried about what anybody else is thinking or saying, at least where I'm at. It's like I'm in the game and that's where I want to be, and I kind of trust in that. So I love. I just. That quote really hit me between the eyes, and everything you said just hit me between the eyes, too. Because at the end of the day, it's like, yeah, if you've got the time. It's like you said, if you've got the time to sit there and do. 

Sheri Hudspeth [37:43 - 37:44]: That, I mean, what do you. 

Lee MJ Elias [37:44 - 37:47]: What do you. I mean, if you've got the time, I don't have the time. Right? 

Cassie Campbell [37:47 - 38:36]: That's kind of. And I, you know, and that going back to my role with the pwhl, like, that's been one of the things I've been able to do is call people. And between my husband and I, we know everyone in the game, and I think that bothers people, too. It's like, well, how connected is she? And play in the NHL and. But I can pick up the phone and pretty much call anyone. And, you know, I've helped the pwhl. It's been part of our player safety, some of the connections. And, you know, we're going to have a couple NHLs come and speak to the players. Well, hey, can you help us out 100%, you know, and so, like, I don't. I don't care. You know, like, you go and sit on your little chair and you waste your life away being on Twitter, and I'm just going to continue to live mine, and that's been a big focus for me. 

Sheri Hudspeth [38:36 - 38:47]: So let's talk about that. Your role with the pwhl, special advisor to the pwhl, pretty cool title. Can you tell us about your roles and responsibilities and what that position is going to do to enhance the league? 

Cassie Campbell [38:47 - 41:32]: Yeah, well, I don't know if I necessarily have a job description, Sherry. I don't think Hef and I plan that out, but I, you know, I, we talked about it and she's like, well, what do you want to do? And I said, well, what do you need me to do? And what you. What do you want me to do? And I said, I don't want to travel. I just. Can I be part time? I don't want to. I don't want to be paid a ton of money. Like, this is not why I'm back. And, you know, I knew I was thinking of leaving sportsnet for sure. Just to take. When I joined ESPN and I was doing ESPN and Sportsnet for about four years there, it just was a lot. It took its toll. And so I, I needed to kind of pull back a little bit. And she went with it as it goes. So literally, I helped start the player safety committee. So I, I called, you know, Mike Murphy's on our player safety committee. And you know, we have Katie Gay, who's a former official and, well, she's still an official, but she, she has a young child and, you know, the list goes on and on. So I helped Chris Burkitt and have sort of, you know, put that together. And, you know, for example, our rules and competition committee, it's myself and an American who will be announced that she'll be in a special advisor too soon. You know, we did this together and you know, just. I'm on hockey ops calls every week. I'm on GM calls every week. I, you know, obviously, you know, we had a little bit of an issue in Minnesota last year, so I went to Minnesota and just sort of check things out, say hello to people, talk, talk to people. I was in Toronto. I'm trying to get to all the games. I was supposed to be in Montreal for that big April, but the ESPN schedule changed for the playoffs, so I ended up having to go. But my goal is to get to every PWHL home game and just see and just be, I think, eyes and ears for Jaina, someone that she can sort of talk to about different things and whatever's needed. Honest to God, whatever's needed. You know, I'll set up chairs for our meetings. Like, you know, I was recently in Toronto for hockey ops meetings and, you know, I did a presentation to the GMs about our player safety and our Rules and competition committee and, you know, just. Yeah, whatever's needed. You know, getting information from the NHL, from players, from coaches, you know, what else do we need? How do we make our game better? How do we make our teams better? So it's. It kind of is no set job description, but it's been really busy, and it's been really, really fun, and it's where my passion is. And, you know, I always. People say, what does the special advisor do? And I say, hey, whatever's needed. You know, whatever you need. You need a coffee? I'll go get. I'll get you a coffee. You know, it's just so exciting to be part of it and so exciting to. To watch it. 

Mike Bonelli [41:33 - 42:07]: Yeah. So knowing that we're always looking for clickbait on this show, we have. We have you right here with us. So can you tell us. I mean, because obviously, you know, I. I've. You know, I've really been in a. I think, a very unique situation for myself, even personally, you know, being a part of the Connecticut Whale and watching them and coaching with that group. And I. I know Dave Starman really well and his transition to the PWHL and doing, you know, play by play or, you know, color for the. For. For the team and seeing. Yeah, but seeing the melt and talk about somebody who gets a lot of stuff on Twitter. I mean, I actually. I actually love watching him. 

Cassie Campbell [42:07 - 42:08]: He does. 

Mike Bonelli [42:08 - 42:17]: I love watching the other way. Right. And he just says, hey, you know, you're right. I'm brutal. He goes, you are. You are correct. I'm. I'm as bad as they are. But I think. 

Cassie Campbell [42:17 - 42:17]: I think you're good. 

Mike Bonelli [42:17 - 42:50]: Dave, knowing what you know now and seeing you're involved in here, can you tell us a little bit about, you know, what's the future look like, you know, for this league and in expansion and growth and, you know, really. Can you talk a little bit about, like, the inner workings of, you know, or is the PWHL looking to go, like, really strong into this or, you know, kind of test the waters and evaluate where you're at based off of other leagues and other models and the past experiences? 

Cassie Campbell [42:50 - 44:06]: Yeah, the great thing, Mike, is that I think we get to learn from other leagues, which is an advantage that, you know, not necessarily a lot of leagues have had in the past. So we get to learn from the NHL and the great things about it and the mistakes that are made. We get to learn from the wnba, the great things about it and the mistakes that have been made. And the neat thing is that Jane is in touch with all those groups and so she gets that information and from. I don't want to speak for our owners because, you know, I like my job. I don't want to get fired tomorrow. But listen, I understand and everything I know and getting a chance to be around them, they're all in. And this isn't just like, oh, here we go, you know, obviously there has to be a business component behind it. You know, they're not as wealthy as they are just for the sake of it, but you know, that's. They're all in. And I, I really think we're going to see expansion sooner than, than maybe people anticipated, you know, going into year one. You know, we have to make sure we have the players and enough depth. But there's so much interest, you know, even this year to do some, you know, off site games. And people were sending in applications to do these off site games. 

Sheri Hudspeth [44:06 - 44:10]: Vegas and come on, come on out. 

Cassie Campbell [44:10 - 45:51]: And so like the interest we've had there, the interest we've already had in people who want teams like we honestly don't have enough players, I don't feel to make that happen. And you know, I think we got to be careful in how we approach it. But Mike, we finally have a business staff and a marketing staff and a communication staff and a hockey ops department that all work in these little sections that are, have the time to focus on those very details. And so I don't know what the future is going to hold. I just know the ownership group is all in completely, you know, stan and Royce, Mr. Walter, they're always, you know, in on things and constantly communicating, you know, with Jaina and our staff and you know, just they're in it to grow the game. They're in it to be a business as well. They see it as a business and I think it's exceeded everyone's expectations in year one. But we also need to know that we've got to keep this momentum going into year number two. But yes, there are constant conversations and people reaching out about expansion and that's a real good thing. You know, when people have interest in what you're doing and to have these off site games and our sponsorship, you know, our sponsorship group and our business ops group led by Amy Scheer is incredible. And you know, they continue to look for new sponsors and create new opportunities in that sort of field. So I will say we will have expansion. If I, if I was to say, oh, we're going to have it next year, I can't guarantee that But I think coming soon we're going to have expansion. 

Sheri Hudspeth [45:51 - 46:10]: Has there been any talk of like adding not, not a youth but maybe like a junior league, like almost AHL affiliate underneath the these teams to have, you know, be able to call people up, like Junior Arrows went to nwhl, like, yeah, very good league in Ontario that could perhaps, you know, be a junior league underneath the that. Do you think we'll get there? 

Cassie Campbell [46:10 - 47:39]: Yeah, no, that's definitely a priority for us. There's like a ton of priorities that going into year one that we had to kind of turn around in, in six months and now through this summer we've actually had the time to like first of all breathe and then secondly say, okay, what do we need? And so Kristen Richards was hired as sort of our grassroots and development person and she's done an amazing job. Just recently we've had our first off ice clinics I believe in Montreal. I've seen Toronto, Minnesota, but every market is going to have one of those at some point and she leads that and that's our grassroots initiative. And also she's going to be in charge of development. So development means, yeah, we need to have our reserve players can play, you know, our drafted players, where are they going to play? And so we've, we've looked into potential relationships with European teams. We, you know, looking into, you know, eventually kind of starting, you know, something where all our players can play, whether it's a developmental league, whether it's like the AHL at this point. You know, I think we're still early in those discussions, but it's definitely a priority for us is where do we, you know, our players that are drafted who don't necessarily make the roster, how can we keep them involved? How can we keep them, you know, playing and active in the communities and they're important to us. And so the discussions about a developmental league are of high priority and how we go about it and you know, the cost is obviously in year number two, something we got to be careful of, but it's definitely on our radar. 

Mike Bonelli [47:40 - 48:19]: Yeah, I mean I got the tour, the PWHL space before they left in, in Chelsea, Pierce in Connecticut for the New York team. And that's something, I mean if everybody saw the facilities that these women are getting right now. From where, from where I remember when they were in like, you know, the equipment room was being brought in each day and you know, basically the girls, you know, carrying their bags from their car to seeing what rivals Any Division 1 minor league hockey facility. Yeah, from ice baths to stalls to coaches rooms to training rooms and like all that kind of equipment room is unbelievable. 

Cassie Campbell [48:19 - 49:28]: So nutrition, you know, nutrition, all access to medical, that's been a, you know, we wanted it to be as professional. Like professional is now we're going to the Prudential Center. Not to interrupt you, but you know, as, you know and you know, we've got the Coca Cola center now in Toronto and Place Bell in Montreal. So we're moving into some bigger venues, which is really key with all the interest. But that was a big thing, Mike. The dressing rooms, the access to medical care, the nutrition side of it, physio, that was what these players fought for. Right. And they knew that. It just wasn't like that. And like I played in the Ice palace at, you know, York University is the coldest rink in the history of the world. But, you know, and these players were playing in a little bit better facilities as they were going along, but it wasn't to their standard. And they've set a standard that it is for the future and it's going to be, you know, sustainable for the future and that's a priority for them. And you know, the, the accommodations, if you will, were a big part of that. 

Mike Bonelli [49:28 - 49:49]: Yeah, no doubt about it. It's impressive to see all these places do what they're doing and making the room and making the, the access and the opportunity, you know, for all these things to happen. And I think it's, you know, just those behind the scenes things that make it truly a professional league, you know, just speaks volumes about where this league is right now. 

Cassie Campbell [49:50 - 51:51]: Yeah, I, I, hey, listen, nothing's perfect. We still want to get better and better. But I am so impressed with how in six months time, from the moment the CBA was signed. And don't forget, this is the first ever professional that had a CBA before the league actually started, which was so key. And the players are the ones that did that. And then we turn around and we've got venues and we've got like high quality venues. And then, you know, we don't have names and logos yet, but we got jerseys. And that ended up being a little bit genius without us maybe really knowing. Because every time you talked about a team, you had to say PWHL Montreal, PWHL Toronto, PWHL Boston, PWHL Minnesota. So it actually worked in the marketing side of that. Now we. But in six months, what the staff was able to do is like, it blows my mind. So Was everything perfect? 100%. Not first year. How could it have been in such a quick turnaround but it was way better than anything we've ever had. And that's not to say that everything we've had in the past didn't play a part in where we went to, because it certainly did. From, you know, the Cowell League to the Canadian Women's Hockey League to the original NWHL to the second version of the NWHL to the Western Women's Hockey League. All of these things played a part in where we are today and were so important. But we're finally at a place today of where we've always wanted to be. That is truly a professional format where we have everyone working together on the same page. And I think that was really significant for our league in year Number one is how many PHF players we had. Right. Like, I think it was up to 60% of the league was PHF players. And yet there was this sort of perception that there was this huge riff and they wouldn't be invited. No, no, no. That was never going to be an option. And I think all of us working together has made it what it's been, and we still got to make sure it continues to grow. 

Lee MJ Elias [51:53 - 52:02]: Speaking of it growing, Cassie, I was going to say their final question here is kind of for the kids. Sherry, I want to throw it to you because I think you're the right person to ask that question. 

Sheri Hudspeth [52:03 - 52:15]: Yeah. Cassie, thank you for everything you've done for the game. It's been great to have you as a role model and watching your career advice to young girls today who are either looking to play hockey or want to work in hockey. 

Cassie Campbell [52:16 - 53:56]: Well, I think the sky's the limit, Right. There's so many possibilities, so know that, you know, you're playing the best game on earth. Yeah. I think always working on the basics. You know, you might be the best player on your team now, but, you know, down the road, people will catch up, or you'll go off into the national team or wherever or college, and everyone's the best player. So always continue to work on the basics of your game. You know, have fun, believe you belong. You know, there's still people out there that are going to say, oh, women's hockey, girls hockey, it's not as much now, but, you know, big three words in my life or have always been, believe you belong and just have fun with it and work hard. You know, never take a practice off. Always be willing to learn something new. You know, I think that's really, really important. And, you know, I think just going back to you, Sherry, like, thanks for all you're doing. And what you're doing there in Vegas and growing up and playing the game and taking advantage of a great opportunity that you were given and doing a good job. And, you know, I think it's just so important that us as women, we can do the game, and if we don't, it can fall apart. Right. So we just got to keep giving back. And I think even as a young kid, you know, keep giving back to your teammates. Be a good teammate, be respectful, be responsible, and respect yourself first and foremost as a young girl. Right. Like, there's so many things that kind of pull us in, you know, different directions. Our body, our mind, all these things. And I think it's important for young girls to respect the goals that they set for themselves and to respect themselves. 

Lee MJ Elias [53:58 - 54:19]: And Mike and I are happy to be along for that ride as well. No, look, I think we're out of time here, Cassie, that everything you've said today has been wonderful. I'm going to go back to what I said at the beginning of the show. It really is an honor to have you here for your perspective, for your leadership. And again, there's no way anybody walked away from this episode not having learned something from you. 

Cassie Campbell [54:20 - 54:23]: No. I appreciate being on Reach out anytime. 

Lee MJ Elias [54:23 - 54:25]: Be careful with that. We might take you. 

Cassie Campbell [54:25 - 54:26]: Yeah, okay. That's okay. 

Lee MJ Elias [54:27 - 54:34]: And if anyone's thinking about writing any criticism of this episode, just remember, Cassie can tell you exactly. I won't read gold medal ways. 

Mike Bonelli [54:34 - 54:39]: Yeah, you can be blocked at. Cassie Campbell, 77. 

Cassie Campbell [54:41 - 54:43]: I won't block them. I'll only mute them. 

Lee MJ Elias [54:43 - 55:49]: Yeah, mute them again. My joke is if you don't know how much a gold medal weighs, don't bother, because she does so. All right, that's gonna do it for this edition of our Girls Play Hockey for sure. Headspace. Mike Benelli. I'm Lee Elias, and we're gonna thank once again Cassie Campbell Pascal for joining us today and what has been a wonderful episode. Remember, if you have a question, a comment, a thought, and you want to reach out to us, there's a link accompanying this episode in the show notes. Tap it and you're texting right to us. We'll get your idea for shows and any comments that you have and always, if you want to go old school. Since we were talking about that today, apparently this is old school school now. You can email us@teamourkidsplayhockey.com but that's going to do it, my friends. Have a wonderful week in hockey, and we'll see you next time on the next episode. We hope you enjoyed this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or our website, our kids play hockey.com also, make sure to check out our children's book, When Hockey Stops at When Hockey Stops.com, a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much for listening to this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey, and we'll see you on the next episode.