Our Girls Play Hockey - Girls Programs vs. Boys Programs: What’s The Difference? Featuring Kim McCullough of Total Female Hockey

Lee MJ Elias [0:08 - 1:00]: Hello, hockey friends and families around the world. And welcome to another episode of our newest series, our girls play hockey. I'm Lee Elias, and I'm joined by Mike Benelli and Sheri Hudspeth. And remember, our goal with this show is to tackle the topics and discussions surrounding youth girls hockey to better the game for everybody. If you're involved in youth hockey in any way, we're gonna provide value and insight to create both a better environment experience for everyone involved. For this episode, our topic is girls hockey versus boys hockey. Sounds like a Marvel film, but what's the difference? And our expert panelist is Kim McCullough, the director of total female hockey. Kim played six seasons of pro hockey and was also the captain and leading scorer at Dartmouth College, graduating in 2002. She is a highly sought after coach, a mother of three, and we are fortunate to have her on today. Kim, welcome to our girls play hockey. 

Kim McCullough [1:00 - 1:10]: Thanks so much, Lee. And I've listened to all the episodes so far that you guys have done specifically on the girls, and I think it's awesome that you're going down this track. So thanks for having me. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:10 - 1:39]: Well, hey, listen, the honor's all ours. I mean, when we do shows like this and the our kids play hockey network, one of the things we were really driven to do was find kind of the conversational gaps in the game. And when we spoke with Sheri, I think we realized that, hey, look, there's an opportunity here to do a show that's going to serve the girls game, but really the broader game in its entire sense. And great guests such as yourself are really what make that drive. So thank you for being here again. It means a lot to us. 

Kim McCullough [1:40 - 1:49]: Well, my pleasure. I was on the ice for 32 hours in the last four days. So hopefully this voice holds up at the end of hockey camp season. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:49 - 2:28]: So luckily for you, everyone on this call could probably say that I'm serious amount of ice time. I vlog this week. I feel fit, but I feel I'm pretty tired. All right, I'm not going to lie to you. So listen, with our topic today, I want everybody to know if you heard our episode we did a few weeks ago when we discussed when it may or may not be the right time to move from boys hockey to a girls hockey program. This is kind of a companion to that or part two of that in the way we format of the question. We're going to start really broad here. Kim, let me ask you this off the top of the bat. What do you think is the biggest difference between girls and boys? Hockey? 

Kim McCullough [2:28 - 4:56]: Well, I think there's a few. I think the biggest one, and it certainly pops at young ages, is the social piece. There's something to be said of being around a whole bunch of other girls versus boys, and I'm based out of Toronto, so there's no shortage of hockey options for everyone from boys to girls to co edge. And, you know, you can barely drive ten minutes without running into another competitive center. So there's no question that the opportunities are there. I would say the social piece is big, and I don't mean like the parties, although I'm sure the parties are different too. But just being with your peers and being able to have that personal connection in that way, I think is a really big driver and sometimes one of the big reasons that people switch, certainly at the young ages, I don't think there's any difference in terms of skill level or the things we should be teaching them. I run total female hockey, but I would coach boys the exact same way. The marketing is different with the ponytail on the hat, but other than that it would be identical. So I don't think there's much that way. And then certainly you do get the difference when the checking comes in. The physicality. Now that said, I teach my players physicality from the time they're six. So we are definitely a tough team and could definitely hang in with a bunch of young boys, but we don't get to the checking piece, I guess, now until the PWHL. I know you guys talked about that on a previous episode, but I would say other than that, the level of hockey craziness here in Toronto is comparable with the two. Unfortunately, we're not making Connor McDavid money anytime soon, so that's obviously a difference. Although I will say Pulan deserves that kind of money, and I would love to see her get paid that one day. But I would say one of the biggest things I hear from parents, if they start their girls and boys and then they come to our camps, which are all girls, or they move to girls, hockey is just that their daughter's personality is different and she kind of opens up a little bit when she comes to the girls game, and that's different for everyone. Obviously there's girls who love being around the boys and being in that environment and works well for them. But just in my experience, that's the feedback I get from parents who maybe have had experience in the boys game and then bring their girls over to the girls game. 

Sheri Hudspeth [4:57 - 5:15]: Kim, thank you so much for being here, and thank you for all you're doing for the women's game. It's very inspiring, and especially your camps that have all female coaches. Um, we're going to dive into that in a little bit, but statistically, there's still a higher population of boys that play over girls. Can you talk about what challenges that creates and how do we get more women involved in coaching? 

Kim McCullough [5:17 - 6:46]: Oh, well, I'm trying my best, Sheri, to get as many of my former teammates and friends. I think one of the challenges with women in coaching is, you know, sort of the off ramp when k. When kids come into play, if kids or relationships come to play. So certainly we see in Toronto a lot of women who want to get back after they played college hockey or they played, you know, at a competitive level, and they want to get back involved with the game. Typically, they want to get back involved in the game at the top level, which can be challenging because they don't necessarily have coaching experience, but certainly it's a bit of a cache to have a pro player or d, whatever it is you sports player, come in and coach your U 15 AA or U 18 AA team. So that's typically where they get on the ramp, which is an interesting transition, because they're not necessarily that experienced in the running of a hockey team, although they've come up from high level hockey. So their drills and their skills are quite good. And then typically, there's an off ramping, either, hey, like, I don't want to spend 24/7 all my weekends and evenings in a rink anymore, or I'm in a relationship and we're going to have kids, and so we get off the ramp, and then I do. We get back on the ramp afterwards. I really believe, and I. I don't know, I must be a unicorn. I might be one of the few women who actually coached through having kids. I went into labor with my second kid on the bench during a game, so, um. But I didn't believe. 

Lee MJ Elias [6:46 - 6:47]: Well, you gotta tell that story. 

Kim McCullough [6:47 - 7:01]: Well, we can go into that if you want. Anyways, I'll talk about that in a second. But, yeah, that's a big challenge. I don't want to call my children a hurdle, but some mornings they're a hurdle. 

Lee MJ Elias [7:02 - 7:03]: We all relate to that. Don't worry. 

Kim McCullough [7:03 - 7:06]: But I'll tell the. Okay, let's tell that story. 

Lee MJ Elias [7:06 - 7:30]: I just want to say to the audience, listening here, I've never experienced this. Mike's never experienced this. All right, this is something new. The game always surprises you. Just to recoup, recap here, I believe you said you went into labor on the bench with one of your children. Okay. I just wanted to set that up again for myself because he said that, and I was like, did I hear that correctly? Kim, the floor is yours. 

Kim McCullough [7:30 - 8:22]: Yeah, this is a good one. So this is my second child. So those of you who are listening who have had children, this would have been very different if it was my first child, but this was my second child, so I knew very well the feelings you feel when you go into labor and that you don't need to panic and go to the hospital right away. Although, again, my three labors were quite easy. So this has got, like, disclaimers all over it. So we're in a. We're in the provincials. This would have been when I was coaching U 22 elite. We're playing. I think it was an appean. I was coaching with Lee side. I've been coaching with Lee side forever, and it's like a banger of a game. Like, up and back, up and back. Like, attract me. Goalies are playing great. Players are playing great. I think we're both, like, top five teams in the league at that point. It's a great. You know, it's one of those games as a coach, you almost never get where you just cross your arms and lean against the wall. 

Lee MJ Elias [8:22 - 8:22]: Yeah. 

Kim McCullough [8:23 - 8:27]: Nothing bad to say. Like, it's just enjoying the game. 

Lee MJ Elias [8:27 - 8:28]: Yeah. 

Kim McCullough [8:28 - 9:58]: So after the first period, I'm like, oh, not feeling great now. At that point in your pregnancy, you're never feeling great. But definitely, it was like, something's going on here. But classic hockey player. I'm like, we're just gonna keep her going here. You know, had the flood between the second and the third. Didn't say anything to anybody. Okay. I was just leaning against the wall, you know, and then. So we end up. I don't even remember what the score of the game is now, because, obviously, I was preoccupied, but this would have been the first day at provincials, and going to the dressing room after, hey, girls like this, you know, it's a great game, and here's what we need to do. And, you know, classic coach debrief. And as I'm leaving the rink, my. My dad used to come and watch all the games I coached, which is awesome. And then my husband was there, and we're walking out the door. I'm, like, saying bye to everyone. See you tomorrow. Bye. Good day. See you. And then, like, we get right out the door, and I'm like, we need to go to the hospital. It's probably happening now, so. And they're like, no, react. They're like, okay, like, classic me. So. And anyways, we went to the hospital, and a couple hours later, I text my assistant coaches and like, hey, you guys are in charge tomorrow. And they're like, you're crazy. I'm like, I know. And my daughter was. Was born the next day, and I missed the games, and I got updates from everybody. But that's as Kim a story as you're going to get, because that tracks 100%. 

Lee MJ Elias [9:59 - 10:08]: That's not a Kim story. That's a hockey story. That is. Sorry, with your permission, we're definitely going to share that one because that's one I've never heard before. Now, remember you said this was your second kid? 

Kim McCullough [10:09 - 10:11]: That was my second, yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [10:11 - 10:14]: And your second plays or. Or doesn't play. 

Kim McCullough [10:14 - 10:16]: She plays, and she's like the wind. 

Lee MJ Elias [10:16 - 10:16]: All right. 

Kim McCullough [10:16 - 10:17]: Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [10:17 - 10:24]: When she makes the PWHL. We're going to share this clip again, because this is the real origin story of how that happened. 

Kim McCullough [10:24 - 10:44]: Yeah, it was. She was born for it. And every year, like, her birthday lands around provincials. Right. Which is great when you're a young hockey player. And. Yeah, then the third one, I had her actually in between playoff series so that I could get back. I was on the bench when she was two days old. 

Lee MJ Elias [10:44 - 10:45]: Yeah, you timed that one. 

Kim McCullough [10:46 - 10:48]: Yeah, that one was like, well, we tried to time that one as much. 

Lee MJ Elias [10:48 - 10:49]: We tried to tell that. 

Mike Bonelli [10:50 - 10:51]: Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [10:51 - 11:10]: So the difference between girls hockey and boys hockey, we've just discovered it. Women are willing to go into labor on the bench, and no man in the history of hockey has ever done that. Just making you guys. I'm in awe. That's amazing. All right, listen, we got to get back on track. But you said that. I said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. We got to hear this story. Go ahead, Mike. 

Kim McCullough [11:10 - 11:11]: Sorry. 

Mike Bonelli [11:11 - 11:15]: Yeah, I slammed my finger in the door once, and I had to go to the hospital after a game when. 

Lee MJ Elias [11:15 - 11:16]: He stuck it out. 

Mike Bonelli [11:16 - 11:25]: I'll tell my story. I did stay the whole game. I coached. Wow. So thinking about that perspective. 

Lee MJ Elias [11:25 - 11:25]: Right? 

Mike Bonelli [11:25 - 12:19]: And I think you talk about it, and I get the pleasure of listening to Kim a lot with Wally Kozak and some stuff with the sharks. And she does such a great job of, like, describing the game and skill development, not from a woman's perspective, but just from a hockey player's perspective. But I always love to hear the nuances of how you treat your players. But maybe tell us a little bit about from girls to boys. And, you know, you've been on both sides of the game. And around the game, and you're in the mecca of hockey there, where you see the boys and the girls and the parents. What do you think the perspective is and the expectations of boys and girls parents? Does it depend on level, does it depend on their skill? Does it depend on what team they're on? Just a little bit about, you know, where you see that, uh, from. From where your view of the parents and what they expect from their daughters, for sure. 

Kim McCullough [12:19 - 15:25]: I think there is now that I've got young daughters in the game, so my daughters are eight and six. You know, I'm around the ranks a lot more around younger parents. Like, they're kind of like little puppies. Like super excited. For many years, I coached U 22, I coached college, I coached U 18. So they're at the end of the journey, they're a little less energetic, the whole thing kind of very well tested. And so I would say generally the boys hockey parents get crazier earlier than the girls hockey parents. There's a little crazy in all of us, myself included, but I would say they go all in a little bit more quickly than the girls do. I think our hockey starts at the same time. So we have the learn to play program starting at the three, four, five, the same way the boys do. You know, I do think here they've got these rogue triple A leagues that start when they're five and six, and they go full ice right out of the gate, some of them. And there just seems to be this urgency to be the next Conor McDavid or Conor Bernard or whoever the next Conor will be. And so they just. There's a lot of FOMO. And I do see that creeping into the girls game a lot more. Certainly, I would never have dreamed ten years ago that I would have seven and eight year old players parents asking me about spring hockey and whether they should do it or not do it with the girls. And I'm sure those conversations happen even younger with the boys, but that's not something that was a reality in our game that many years ago. And now people feel like, if I'm not doing all this and this and this, am I going to be missing out? And as someone who makes a living coaching hockey and running camps and clinics, certainly it's good for business if you want to get on that bus. But I really believe that with the girls, that the end game still is the college hockey experience. Certainly they all want to make the Olympic team. We know that is virtually impossible. Not to say it's not a dream to have, but to be in the top 20. Certainly here in Canada, I mean, the chances are extremely low. And even if you look at the PWHL, there's six teams. I mean, hopefully by the time these girls get older, there'll be some more. But still, the chances are extremely low. Whereas the chance of making a college hockey roster as d sports club hockey, there's a ton of opportunity. And so that urgency means you've got to finish high school first. There's no exceptional player status. You know, you're not getting drafted into the dub or the o or what. There's a pretty normal path for the girls that you can't really accelerate through, and I think that normalizes the parents a little bit. But like I said, there's still a lot of crazy. And again, being in Toronto, we're just as crazy as the rest of them. Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [15:25 - 16:18]: Kim, it's funny because statistically speaking, boys hockey versus, I guess, girls hockey, going to college, um, girl hockey players, statistically have a massively higher chance of actually playing in college, should they want to do that, than boys. Now, it's funny because that number's dropping because the player population is growing, which is a good thing. Um, but, yeah, those dreams at the young age are interesting to me. Um, and I always wanted to say, like, we say this almost on every episode now to the. To the audience listening, you're not crazy. The hockey world is crazy. Right? If you're listening to this show, you probably have a grip on something, but, yeah, we. Mike and I discuss this all the time on our kids play hockey, just the FOMO and the. The kind of. I call them the rookie hockey parent that's just trying to find their grip. It's like, hey, relax. You've got some time. You're cultivating a love of the game here. Go ahead, Mike. 

Mike Bonelli [16:19 - 16:37]: No, I was just going to say, because I just. And you're right. I mean, the FOMo there is for the boys and girls, and I'm just seeing it more and more. It is getting a little, you know, maybe because of the PWHL and the fact that you could, you know, potentially play pro hockey, depending on what. What parent put their kids into a sport and why they do it. 

Lee MJ Elias [16:38 - 16:38]: Right. 

Mike Bonelli [16:38 - 17:36]: But can you talk a little bit about. Because I. Because this is my perspective. Right. I don't see the cutthroat part of it as much. Like, I don't see, like, on the boys side, it's very. Everything secretive. That person's going to that skating coach, that person's doing it. I mean, I just worked with nine prep girls this last week, just getting ready for school, and I just found, like, their ability on the ice together and the parents all sitting together and they're all kind of in a common, like, man, we just want what's we want best for our daughters to have a really great experience first and the other stuff will kind of take care of itself and the like. Do you find that, you know, in an all female program, do you find that maybe that. I don't even know what. That's not compassion, but, you know, the ability, like the want of other players to succeed longer, is there more than maybe in the male side of the sport? 

Kim McCullough [17:37 - 19:28]: Yeah, I mean, most of my experience on the female side, and I'm actually the director of coach and player development at the Toronto Lee side Wildcats. We're the biggest girls hockey association in the world. And actually, if we were a country, we would be the 10th biggest country in women's hockey. So that's a fun fact. And so, I mean, Sheri grew up not far from where I live now in the Toronto universe. So I think there is some of that cutthroatedness at the top level in the sense that it's very easy to move around and find the next great team. Like I said, if you live where I live, you're 25 minutes away from six centers that all have top level. And so at the tippy top, there's that urgency to be with the best. But that's a very small percentage of the population, for the majority of the population that we work with at Leeside or all these organizations, I think you're right, Mike. The experience is a huge piece of it. And that's a big part of what we sell, is that you see a path. If you want to get to U 22 elite or you want to get a scholarship, we have that path and it's mapped out for you. But if hockey's not your be all and end all, or you want to play at a high level, but you're also a soccer player or you want to play at a high level, but you know, U 18 is going to be your last year of hockey, we offer that too. Right? So that's the joy we have in the numbers we have. We have 1600 players. We have every know, iteration of hockey and level that you could possibly want. And I think that gives families a lot of comfort because you don't know, you know, my little eight year old who says she loves hockey and I want to do hockey hockey, you know, if she wants to play college hockey or in the PW, that's 1015 years from now. 

Lee MJ Elias [19:28 - 19:28]: Right. 

Kim McCullough [19:28 - 20:01]: I don't know what she's going to like three months from now. Right. But I know she loves hockey and maybe she, five years from now is playing at a lower level because she loves it, but rock climbing has taken over it. Right. So I think that experiential piece is really big in the girls knowing that they tend to play more sports for longer than the boys do. The academics are a really big piece because they're looking to get scholarships. And then they know that, again, the McDavid money isn't coming anytime soon, so they have to get a, quote, real person job. 

Lee MJ Elias [20:01 - 20:05]: That's what my mom calls it, real person job. 

Kim McCullough [20:05 - 20:09]: I don't have a real person job. Just so you know. Yeah, that's the defining line. 

Lee MJ Elias [20:09 - 20:11]: You have a hockey person job. 

Kim McCullough [20:11 - 20:52]: I'm a hockey person job. But yeah, I think the experience is huge. And that goes back to what I was saying earlier about the social piece. Now, that experience could still be like, we want to win it all and we're going to be the top team in the province for sure. That's there as well. But there are very few win it all cost programs or teams that last longer than one season. Because, of course, when you have the win at all costs, let's get everyone together and somebody's got to be the first line center and someone's got to be starting goalie and someone's got to be the top d pair and they're not. That team blows up the following year and they all go to the other teams that are 25 minutes away. So it's not a sustainable effort, at least not in the Toronto area. 

Sheri Hudspeth [20:54 - 21:03]: Kim, could you talk about some of the differences between that you've seen between female coaches and male coaches besides giving birth? 

Kim McCullough [21:04 - 25:27]: I haven't seen that from the guys yet. Crazy instances on the ice. You can imagine coaching seven and eight year olds like you're always worried you're going to get submarine by a kid who thinks they can stop, who can't actually stop. Yeah, I would say, first of all, I'm a big believer that we want great coaches, and if some of them happen to me male and some of them have to be female and some of them identify, doesn't matter to me. I know at our organization we're almost one third female coaches on the competitive side, which is like extremely high compared to a lot of other organizations. So we're proud of that. But at the same time, I've coached with and against a lot of terrific male coaches that I'd be sad if they weren't in the female game. So I would say, obviously, you can only have been female if you're female. So that is a big piece. I know a lot of the women we, we have coaching have played at a high level, but many of them have not. And this is something maybe Sherry can relate to as well. When I first got into coaching, I remember I coached, co coached with this woman who was at the end of her coaching career with her daughter. So she had coached her from novice to U 18 AA all the way through. And I came on as this new, like, co head coach with her, fresh out of playing pro, just started my business, and we're kind of talking about responsibilities, and she's like, okay, Kim, here's how it's going to go. You're going to do all the hockey stuff. You want to change the power play. You want to run the practices, you want to do this. That's you. I'm like, great. She's like, I'm going to do all the other stuff. And in my head I'm like, what's the other stuff? I didn't know there's other stuff. So that year was my best coaching year because I just, you know, I was like, oh, we're going to do this drill, and we're going to do that drill. And she did the stuff, which I didn't have to do any of. And then I realized the following year, when I got my own team, what that stuff was. Just so everyone's clear on the stuff, right? The scheduling, the player management, the parent management, the skills that coming out of pro at whatever age I was 27, I hadn't really had a real person job. I didn't know how to deal with the dad who's the partner at the law firm who wants his daughter to miss the practice, and he's going to, like, sneakily worm his way in there to ask me, and I'm going to be nice and say yes. And then all of them are going to miss practice, and I've created my own monster. And I think that's a bit of a challenge sometimes with our younger female coaches is that they don't necessarily have as much, like, real world job experience, life experience, but they have all the hockey piece. And then you've got the women who maybe never played at a high level in hockey, maybe they played another sport who want to give back to the game, and they're always nervous, like, kim, I don't know if I can do it. And I said, listen, you've got the people skills. You've worked, you know, you know how to deal with the parents. You've been a parent. I love teachers as coaches, of course, like, that's a no brainer. But I think there's a place, you know, for all these different pieces. The women who've played at a high level, the women who are just want to give back to the game and then, you know, the males who have, you know, similar experiences, they might have played at a high level, they might not have. I think there's a little bit for everyone. I just know with my daughters, like, first of all, they don't want me as their coach. They keep asking when they get a new coach, which is hilarious because that's not happening anytime soon. But they certainly do react differently to the female coaches than they do from the male coaches. And we have some fantastic male coaches, but there's just a different connectivity. And so I always encourage people, but I'm not saying you have to have a head coach who's female. You don't even necessarily need to have an assistant coach that's female, although that's like a hot market for sure. But to have a female on your bench when you're coaching on the women's side of the game is absolutely critical. To have someone there who can connect with the players in that way, I think that's a really important piece of the puzzle. So I know it's hard to get the all female bench. It's hard to find the head coaches who are willing to put in that much time and effort. But an assistant trainer, somebody even just a skills coach who's there once a week, I think could make a really big difference on a girls team's bench. 

Mike Bonelli [25:28 - 27:16]: Do you think there's a. Do you think that's. I mean, from the business perspective? Because I think our audience is a lot of different type of people and I think a lot of it is people that are coaching and just getting into coaching. And what I find is, I don't know if the female coaching side thinks that there is a longer lifespan to get into coaching. I see figure skaters that turn into hockey coaches. I see, you know, a couple of. Couple of, like, very niche skills coaches that work with a couple of kids, but they don't coach. They just. They just coach players. They're females, but they coach male professional players and skating and edge control and things like that. Maybe they can't. I don't know. Maybe they don't feel comfortable teaching shooting or something like that to an NHL player because it's different mechanics or that, like the strength part, but you think there's a, like, do you think that's like what comes first? Like the chicken and the egg there? Do we need more female coaches to understand there's a business side? Like, I see every male coach that gets out of the AHL says I could be a, I could just be a hockey director and I could go be for the rest of my life run hockey programs. And I don't see that in the women's game. I mean, I see it a little bit and it's changing, obviously, but where do you think that lifespan is? What do we need to do as a sport to convince more women that retire from playing to say, no, no, no, you don't have to just give private lessons and be in a niche environment. You can actually be in a total female hockey type of environment and really encourage more women to come around you kind of like what Sheri's doing with her programming, too. I mean, does it take leaders like yourselves to just say, listen, we're going to put a stake in the ground here and make this happen? I'd like to hear from both of you guys, actually. Kim and Sheri. 

Kim McCullough [27:17 - 30:38]: Yeah, I'll go first. I think what Sheri's doing is awesome. I think it's important people know you can make a living in the female game, and that's not to say anything about, you know, people who are working on the men's side of the game. I think, you know, all these opportunities we see, you know, women new becoming assistant coaches at that level and hopefully head coaches one day. I think that's amazing. I will say I do have a soft spot for female hockey and I'm in Toronto, so it's very easy for me to stick in this niche in the city that I'm in. It would be very different if I was in small town somewhere else to myopically work with the girls. But I do think we have to hold ourselves up as role models. And I'm very proud of the fact I'm a mother of three and I went into labor with my kid on the bench. I'm proud of the fact that I started this business from nothing. I've been doing it for 17 years and this is all I do. All I do is coach girls hockey. I mean, it's amazing, but, you know, and I played at a decent level. I was a good hockey player. But, you know, I'm really more proud of the fact that I'm a role model. For having a business, doing what I love in the sport that I love. It's very sustainable, and I think it's really important for us as women to champion women who are involved in the game. Males game, female game, you know, the paralympic game. Like, anyone who's involved, I think we need to. There needs to be a light shined on us and whether you're, you know, I have a former player of mine who is a videographer. Like, she does all the videos and team photos and all this, and she just called me last week to say, like, pWhl is going to bring her in as, like, a video person. Like, she's making her living taking pictures and videos of hockey. That's her full time gig. She's female. I think that's really, really important for people to see that. That it can be a side hustle, can be a very lucrative side hustle. Doing it as a full time job is obviously a lot. And I think that the people who sometimes get into it, Mike, to your point, they recognize that, hey, if I just do a couple skills clinics here and there, I get paid by e transfer or venmo, that's easy. To take it to the point where you actually are making a full time business out of it as an entrepreneur is a massive leap and that not everyone's built to be an entrepreneur. But then there are so many more options now for women in the game of hockey that you could not have ever coached, you could have not ever played hockey, and you could be very, very involved in this awesome sport on either the male or female side. So I think it's championing the women who are doing it and getting us out there and saying, hey, Sally, you could do that. And it doesn't. You don't have to be the best skater in order to do that. If you want to be the voice of the PWHL Toronto and do the. Be the announcer, right? Like, that's a job possibility now that, you know, wasn't there, you know, a year ago. Although I do joke, like, when they say, oh, professional women's hockey has arrived. I said, yeah, well, we were doing it pretty well 20 years ago, too, but, you know, there weren't any many zeros behind the paycheck. But, you know, we'll get. We'll get there eventually. Hopefully. Lots of paths forward for women in the game. 

Sheri Hudspeth [30:38 - 32:01]: Speaking of 20 years ago, when we played against Leeside, Lee side was one of the first programs that I ever saw that had female coaches. They had two female coaches at this at that time. And that time it was only men in the league, and I've only seen men coaching. And when I saw that, it's like, oh, we can coach. You know, like, it just kind of, it's not really something that's really apparent, but it did plant the seed, and I always remember seeing them on the bench and then later did, like, and got back into coaching. But I think visibility is so important. Like, just seeing women behind the bench. Like, there's women that drive the Zamboni. You know, you can do broadcasting, you can do youth hockey. There's all kinds of roles, and I speak a lot about women working in hockey, that there is so many jobs for you now. And with the NHLCA, you know, Lindsey Pinao, she's creating a lot of opportunities for a lot of women around the game. And it's like, if these kids, you know, they finish NCAA college hockey and they get on as an assistant coach and want to give back to the game, it's like, I think we just need women wanting to come back into the game. And like, like Kim said, like, you don't need to be scared. It's like, get in, be an assistant coach. Someone can mentor you or I, or follow, you know, follow someone in your home rank or your hometown and just get back involved in the game and get back to the game. But I think the visibility of having women on the ice for parents to see, you know, women coaching, coaching their daughters, I think, is so important. Impactful. 

Mike Bonelli [32:02 - 32:22]: Yeah. And if you're a hockey director like Kim is and Sheri, and you're running hockey programs, provide the support structure, men and female. I've seen more men and female coaches not succeed because of what Kim said earlier. Like, oh, I just. I just thought I was coming here to coach. Like, I didn't know how to do all this other stuff. Like, this is like 27 weeks of my life. 

Sheri Hudspeth [32:22 - 32:23]: It's a full time job. 

Mike Bonelli [32:23 - 32:56]: I've never used sport engine, and I've never used, you know, I've never had to do a calendar app and figure out what girls are playing soccer and lacrosse and have to actually go to school sometimes. Like, you can't leave on a Wednesday and go to a tournament. Like, so I think that giving, if you want more female coaches in your organization or male, good male coaches, find a way to support them and give them the ramp to get to a point where they can kind of take over and be entrepreneurial instead of like, oh, by the way, we're, hey, see you later. Or maybe you'll see if you'll make it to the banquet. Good luck. 

Lee MJ Elias [32:56 - 34:31]: But it behooves you to educate. Like, that's one of the things I see in organizations, too, Mike. It's like, oh, you'll figure it out. Like, no, no, no, do it, do it. A couple hours of education, you just solve a million problems. You know, that's one thing. A couple of things I want to add to this is for the broad audience here. It can be easy to forget. Look, as a white male, there's no shortage of white males in hockey. I've been seeing that since I got into hockey as a young kid. It's easy to forget different ethnicities, women in a game. Until you see it, you might not realize it's possible. And if you were a young girl 30 years ago, you weren't seeing it now. If you're a young girl today, like my daughter who's eight years old, professional hockey. And Kim, not to take away what you said, for sure, it's very visible at the moment, more visible than ever. I'll say it like that. That's a very real possibility in her mind now because she can see it all right. That's just something important to keep in mind. A follow up question I wanted to ask you that I think pertains to. This is, and this is for everybody here, both Kim and Sheri and Mike, too. Mike, you've coached professional women's hockey. How can men be an ally and support this? Right? Because again, we're talking about women jumping in the game. The future of the game is men and women working together to make it a better game. Right? So how can men be an ally in this situation, whether they're coaches, parents, players, anything in between that? 

Kim McCullough [34:32 - 36:49]: Well, in my experience, like the dads are great allies, right, because their daughter's playing hockey and they are all in, right? So they are our greatest supporters. And I've been to, I'd say at least half a dozen, if not more PWHL games. And there's a lot of screaming eight year olds, no question about that. But there's a whole lot of dads with those screaming eight year olds who are championing our sport as well. So I think it's, again, it goes back to that visibility and people understanding that, quite frankly, it's a different game. It is not what you're going to see when you watch the Leafs versus watching PWHL Toronto. It's a different sport in a lot of ways. And so you're, you know, it'd be like volleyball versus beach volleyball. Like they're volleyball, but they're a little different than each other and I think that's okay. I think for a long time with women's hockey, we've been, like very much stuck comparing ourselves directly to the men's game, and I don't think we need to do that. I think it's a very, very different entity, and I'm excited when I see, you know, the marketing attempts and the growth of the women's game now to sort of sell it as like, it's not the NHL's little sister. I really hope it's an entity in and of itself and that people can get behind it as a unique sport in which it is. So I think, not that we don't want to be tied to the men's game, obviously, there's a lot of great parallels there, but I think to celebrate it for what it is and not put it down for the things that it's not, I think is a really, really important piece. And a lot of the men who will have seen both, right, if they played hockey themselves, they would have been on the men's side and now they're on the women's side and they see that it's just. And what I mean differently. I just don't mean as girls on the ice, like, the strategical pieces of the game can be played very differently. The ways you can have success in the female game are very different than the way you can on the men's game. There's ways to teach it that because we don't have full body checking, there's certain skills that work way better in the women's game than they do in the guys game. And I think you have to watch a lot of women's hockey to get the nuance of that. But when you start to understand that, you know, you do start to see how it is a different sport. And I can nerd about, nerd out about that piece all day. 

Lee MJ Elias [36:49 - 36:51]: We're going to in a few minutes now that you mentioned. 

Kim McCullough [36:51 - 37:01]: Yeah, yeah. But I think that it is, you know, not going there expecting, you know, the Scott Stevens Eric Lindross blue line. Like, it's just not. 

Lee MJ Elias [37:01 - 37:05]: Yeah, we don't need to talk about that. That ruined my youth. That was the last day of my youth when that happened. 

Kim McCullough [37:05 - 37:07]: So I was very sad. I was a big Lindross fan, too. 

Lee MJ Elias [37:08 - 37:09]: Me too. 

Kim McCullough [37:09 - 37:36]: But yeah. So I think it's just understanding that it's different and it's great that it's different and celebrate that it's different. And like I said, I think the PWHL is doing a great job of that. And I think, you know, the Canada us rivalry has always done a great job of that. You know, they are their own, in their own league, their own level, and you watch that and you're like, what sport is this? Because that's exciting. 

Mike Bonelli [37:36 - 37:37]: Hockey. 

Kim McCullough [37:37 - 37:39]: No question about that. 

Lee MJ Elias [37:39 - 37:46]: Well, again, Sheri and Mike, anything to add to that? Just about how men can be an ally? Cause I think it's an important question to discuss. 

Mike Bonelli [37:48 - 37:49]: Got cherry? 

Sheri Hudspeth [37:50 - 38:08]: Oh, no, just. Yeah, having. I mean, having the support of dads and having the support of Mendez, um, is just very important. And, um. Yeah, love to see it. I love to see, like, when you go to games and there's little boys and dads taking their little boys, like, the more that we can expose our game to everyone, I think it's just going to help grow, so. 

Kim McCullough [38:08 - 38:08]: Yep. 

Mike Bonelli [38:09 - 39:46]: Yeah. And I think from my perspective, it's. It's getting those dads that are like. Like, played pro or they played college, and they're intense, like they're, you know, and then say, listen, you have to bring that same intensity. The one thing I learned, listen, I coach with Colt Noor, I mean, on a female bench, and he didn't coach like he coached. Like, there was no, like, you know, be careful. The corner. Like, it was like, okay, you know, you're going to coach. But to. And I've learned so much from Kim, listening to her in other things, in just the way she teaches and how the nuances of the game and how it's changed. But sometimes I think as a male coach and a dad, you have to understand that the game is different. Your daughter's the objective for where they want to be. If they want to play prep and college, it is a different game. And sometimes you have to be willing to let that game happen instead of trying to make, you know, have them play a game at eight and nine and ten, that's just not going to be there for them. Like, the focus on what they're trying to learn and how they could be successful, really, to Kim's point sometimes is, well, there's other ways to look at that. If you're a dada, then you played hockey. You don't even understand that because you've never been in the female game. So I think that's where, you know, getting more female coaches that played at a high level, that understand body position, that understand how important the stick is, to understand that you're not taking rips from the top of the blue line, you know, and your slot selection has to be different. All that kind of stuff comes into play and you don't know any of that. If you were just a guy who played college hockey and now your daughter's playing. Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [39:46 - 40:21]: Kim, let me throw it back to you here for a minute. Cause I think this will be a really interesting discussion too. We'll get back to the questioning in a minute. But you know, we are talking about the differences between boys and girls hockey a little bit. Talk to me about some of those skill sets, those tactics. I think that would be a really interesting conversation. Sheri, feel free to jump in as well because Mike, I think you're making a good point. I think a lot of people just go with hockey is the same thing across the board and that's not true. Right? It is a different sport, like you said. I think that we benefit from looking at it like that. Extremely similar. I think that's a fair thing to say. But what the skill sets and the tactics that differ. 

Kim McCullough [40:22 - 40:24]: How much time have you got? 

Lee MJ Elias [40:25 - 40:26]: Two more hours. No. 

Kim McCullough [40:26 - 46:46]: Yeah, let's go. So a lot of this has to do with personality and the female tendency to want to play a certain way within a group game. So I think. I'm sure you guys have talked about this before, right? They are coach pleasers. They want to do it right. I think you put something on the board, stand here, do this and they will stand here and do that. Even if the puck is 8ft somewhere else where they should probably go get it. That is a wonderful thing when coaching the girls. I love coaching all girls because they sit there and listen rapt attention. They're not shooting against the boards when I blowing each other, they're paying attention to every word I say. The problem with that is it sucks some of the creativity out of the game. If as a coach you go, okay, I can exploit this. I can exploit the girl's ability to do exactly what I say because they will go exactly where I point in the forecheck and they will stand exactly where I want on the breakout. And that can bring success at the young age groups if you have structure and players who are willing to do it, because a lot of the other teams you play against might not have the same skillset as you. So if you decide you're going to fore check with three and u eleven hockey, I haven't met a lot of u eleven ds who can solve that problem. Right. So that's going to bring you success. Relying on the girl's ability to do exactly what you say. They think everything in hockey is always and never. So on this drill, guys, you're going to take the puck down the wall and turn. Do I always do that? Is that I'm always going to do that? You're like, no, it's just a tool for your toolbox. But that's the way the girls think in general. I'm generalizing here, but I would say the vast majority of them think that way. And so a lot of what I'm trying to do, so I coached the top levels for a really long time, and now I'm at the grassroots. And so my entire job now is like, how do we break that? Right? That's always going to be there. They're always going to want to do what I say. How can I teach them to be creative? By doing what I say? So, in the development of young girls, these are the two big ones, and I think they go well with their personalities. The first is I always tell them to skate to daylight. Channel your inner Bobby orr. They don't know who Bobby or is. Channel your puck hog tendency. Why would I do that? Because the girls will throw the puck away all day long. They don't want to make a mistake, or someone told them they have to pass or they're worried Sheri won't be my friend if I don't pass it to her. I'm generalizing, but this is a truism from eight year olds all the way to 28 year olds to. Sheri is nodding. This is true. And so I teach them to skate to daylight. Get that puck, find where the space is, figure it out, keep going. Right? That's the number one skill I teach young players. They have to be able to solve the problem on their own. And you might say, kim, you're gonna have a whole bunch of puck hogs. Well, no, I'm gonna teach them how to pass. Soon, that's gonna happen. But with the girls, they need to have the confidence. That's the biggest word in girls hockey. They have to have the confidence to be able to solve the problem on their own. And often, this is a kind of a throwback to an earlier question. When they're with the boys, their tendency to do that is much, much lower. They will not hang on to the puck and try to go end to end. They will give it off for whatever reason that, you know, millions of years ago was stuck in our male female. I don't know why they do it, but they won't do it with the girls. They'll do it. So skating to daylight and keeping the puck, I think, is a really, really critical one at the youngest age groups to give them confidence. The other one is the word I yell the most, which is hunting. We talk about hunting. This is physicality, right? The girls are too nice. They don't want to run anybody over. Well, not my kid. My kid wants to run, including the net. Everything is going to fall. It's like bowling. But that idea to hunt, right? Angling, stick on puck, all the things we want to teach. When you use the word hunt with the girls, it's like a button goes off in their head and they understand, like, oh, I'm going in hard. I am going to. We hunt with two at u eight and u nine. We send two into every, every single battle because we want them want the first one to go in and get the puck. We want the second one or the first one to go and get the body and the stick and the second one to get the puck. And we're solving that problem at the youngest age groups. You know, I know Sheri's, you know, coaching a lot of girls in hockey, right? We don't want it to be a no touching sport. And that, I think, sometimes, is what they think it is. It's not all skills and floating around with the puck, you've got to be able to hunt, right? And then that confidence they get from that physicality on the, I guess the defensive side of the puck is the secret weapon on the offensive side of the puck. So you don't need a tow drag or a Michigan or any of those moves to succeed in girls hockey, because there's no body checking. If you understand how to protect the puck and build a wall and you can drive the net, you can be the next Natalie Spooner. Guys, why did she have 20 goals in the PWHL? Because she is the best player in the world at protecting the puck and moving her feet and getting to the net. I love Natalie. I coached her a long time ago. She does not have the best stick skills in the world. She is by no means the most skilled hockey player in the universe, but that is the hack in girls hockey. Your ability to use your physicality on offense to drive the play is the most important skill, in my opinion, whether you're a d or you're a forward, once you unlock that, that level of confidence to do it, that's what really changes the game. And that's when you watch cannon us and it looks like it's full body checking. That's really what they're able to do. They know physicality on offense, and they know, physicality on defense, and I think that's. That's really the secret sauce. Once you can teach players that ability of puck protection and to get pucks into the middle. I always joke in girls hockey, they might as well not have a middle of the ice. It's just a track. Everyone just skates around the outside because no one wants to touch anybody. We can just get rid of the middle part, and that's what I'm trying to do, is get them into the middle of the ice. I told you I talked for a long time, guys. 

Mike Bonelli [46:46 - 47:54]: No, but I think that. I mean, that's like. I mean, that's my argument sometimes to youth parents with young girls is you hit it like, I don't know. You might have said it 15 times in that. In that, you know, way too long explanation about women's hockey. But if you not. But if you. If you. It's the confidence piece. It's like, you know, I. We have. I used to argue all the, we got to play upper. We got to play an upper level. We got to play the best to be the best. You can't be the best if you never touch the puck. If you don't get the opportunity to even try a tow drag, how would you know? Like, so I think that's like, our inclination as parents with young girls or boys, anybody, right. Is to put them into a place of struggle instead of finding the confidence first and then learn how to struggle through that. And I think that's where, you know, that's where we lose a lot of really great players because they all suddenly go, oh, my God, like, I can't. I can't do this anymore. So is the argument, like. And that, you know, and Sheri, we've had this. How many times have we had this on our podcast about, you know, you know, when are not to take Lee's question, I guess, but, you know, when is that trans. 

Lee MJ Elias [47:54 - 47:54]: Go for it. You can. 

Mike Bonelli [47:54 - 48:33]: Right from, from, from, like, I'm a parent of a girl. I want her to. I want her to be Natalie Spooner. So I got to put her in AAaa boys. But because she's. She's a better skater now. She can't do it physically. It's hard for her to get to the puck. She's not. She's getting, you know, knocked around a little bit. She's. She's, you know, so when is that change is in reality? Is it just you got to look at your daughter and say, she can handle it or she can't. Like, where is it that confidence. How long do we end that? Like what? What's more important? Confidence and the ability to think you can do it or fighting to get there? 

Kim McCullough [48:34 - 53:52]: Well, I think I just. So we can fact check this. Pretty sure Spooner played girls hockey the whole way through, but we might need to look that up. But I think I have a lot of thoughts on this. I would say the on ramp in girls hockey, if you want a scholarship in Canada, I know your ages are a little different. So for you guys it would be U 16. For us, it would be U 15 double a. That's the level you need to get to. However you get there, what weird journey you get there. That's when the college scouts are really starting to come out. So grade, you know, eight, nine are. That's when it's really starting now in girls hockey. So I. I hesitate to say it doesn't matter, but I actually don't think it matters. I was playing house league at 13. Somehow I figured it out. Okay. So I don't think you need to be like the best of the best up until that point. But I do think you need to be in the top tier at that age group if that's the level that you want to get to. So how do you get there in a way that is going to bring you success based on the position you play? Here's what I see. And again, this is in Toronto, in Ontario, most of the girls who are playing top tier boys are playing defense. That's okay. Not a problem. Okay. When they're playing defense, they're not necessarily the rushing defensemen. Usually we're just nice and responsible. We're a little bit more stay at home defensemen. That's a great skill set. And we need tons of those in women's hockey, too. But then they come over to the women's game. Usually in Ontario, they're coming around. You do get some at like u eleven and u 13, but for sure they're coming by u 15 for sure. For sure. And you would think. And they think they're just going to come and run the show. And some of them do, but often they come and they move the puck too quickly. They don't want to hang on to it. Right. They're playing like a more passive style, a less aggressive style. Because for whatever reason, in the boys, that's where they ended up. So I'll tell a quick story. I had a player who played for me for many years who was about six, one shot, like, could break glass with her shot. Huge defenseman, had great wheels could go end to end. When she played u 22 elite could go end to end all day, no question. And who was going to stop her? Giant person? And I remember when she first started playing u 22, she would stop at the red line and dump it in like she would be leading the rush. What are you doing? She said, well, when I played boys, I was told I couldn't go over center. And I was like, she played triple A boys here. Like, for a good organization, I'm like, oh, okay, well, you can go over center because I wouldn't defend you if you paid me a million bucks. I just turnstile and let you in the door. And I was like, that's really interesting. He goes, well, I actually, I used to be a center. I was like, oh, okay. She's like, I played center AAA boys, and then I scored too many goals, so they made me a deep, oh, and then they told you you couldn't go over center. Okay, so not saying that that happens with everybody, but I don't know that the world of boys hockey, men's hockey, their number one mission is not to have the girls succeed. It's not that they don't want the girls to succeed, but that's not their big thing of like, let's champion this girl so she gets to the top, top, top. That's not the number one priority. Not that it should be. But in girls hockey, we're championing all those girls to get to the tippy top all the time. And there is that issue that if it is a player who's quite good, is she gonna get submarined just because of it's an ego thing or, you know, I have met many girls who've come over to the girls game from boys. And the dad will say, the mom will say, oh, it's because she wants to be around other girls. And then they'll pull me aside and say, actually, the coach said they don't want girls on the team anymore, right? So. But the girl doesn't know that. But that's the truth. And I'm not saying that's always the case. You know, there were some of our best players in the world, you know, played boys quite a long way through, and the captains of their, you know, AAA teams and all of that. But they're the outliers, the majority of them, when you see it, who's the top levels, at least in North America. Europe is different, but in North America, many of them, you know, have at least onboarded, like I said, u 16s for you guys. U have played, you know, girls the rest of the way through. I would say the one, you know, the goalies can last a little bit longer if they're great, obviously they don't have to body check. And, you know, the other thing, of course, is if you want to play team Ontario, Team Canada, any of that, you got to be playing girls hockey. So you can't make those teams if you're playing with the boys. So if that's an aspiration or if you want to get a scholarship, they're not coming to some double a game in Richmond Hill, where I live, to watch a girl play hockey. They're going to go to the tournament with 180 teams and pick the girls from there. I would say that's the logical onboarding. But again, the social piece, I think, trumps everything else. And once the girls get with the girls, they tend to level up their play because they feel more comfortable in the dress room and on the ice with their teammates. 

Lee MJ Elias [53:53 - 54:20]: Seems to be a common thread, too. No, no, I just. It seems to be a common thread. I look for congruencies between episodes and that, you know, if you are a young girl or you have a young girl that joining a girls team at some point, you know, we. I think it was looked at as, oh, that's obvious. But it's looking like, no, that's actually the pathway. Right. If you want to do this, you know, post high school, you need to find a good organ, girls organization that can help you develop, and that's of the game. But go ahead, Sheri. 

Sheri Hudspeth [54:21 - 55:22]: Yeah, I'm coaching a tenu team here, girls team. So I have girls that are eight, nine and ten years old, and they're just, you know, starting to play travel hockey. But, like, you can get into skills and all that. But I think the biggest piece is, when you're starting a girls team or girls program, is to not overlook the social aspect of it. I feel like girls need to have fun to win, and I feel like boys need to win to have fun. And what I mean by that is, like, the girls with their locker room dance parties, the pool parties, a lot of the social stuff that they do, I think, really factors into their team bond and their confidence. And without the girls, especially, like, having that social and confidence and, like, getting them to come out of their shell and be one team is the little stuff like that that's not on ice related is. Is trying to get their confidence up. And the girls, I find they really don't want to disappoint you. They are very literal and then, like, if you just give them, like, when they're doing their drills. Good job. Good job. Don't worry if you follow. We're in practice, it's fine. I just feel like the. 

Lee MJ Elias [55:22 - 55:22]: The. 

Sheri Hudspeth [55:22 - 55:39]: The more confidence you can give them by telling them they're doing good, and you'll just like it, especially earlier in the season. Get them to become a team, you know, just through the social stuff, like, and if you are coaching a new team, you know, get them. Get them to bond pretty quickly with your office stuff. 

Kim McCullough [55:40 - 55:47]: Yeah. That's the classic girls hockey thing, right? You go in the dressing room, you've never heard so much talking in life. And then you go parties. 

Sheri Hudspeth [55:47 - 55:47]: Yeah. 

Kim McCullough [55:47 - 56:28]: You go on the ice, and it's like crickets. What happened at that dance party, guys? No one wants to call for the puck because nobody wants to be wrong. They don't want to call for it at the wrong time. I mean, it's fascinating. And this goes back to the earlier question of, why do you want females on the bench? Because we know that. We know that talk on the bench, not or on the ice, not because they don't know the answer, because they're worried about getting it wrong, or they don't want to be the one that stands out. Right. Like, I haven't run a lot of boys hockey stuff, but I'm guessing when you pick a guy to demonstrate the drill, he's like, let's go. I'm the one. You do that with the girls, and they are scared and don't want to be that girl. 

Mike Bonelli [56:28 - 56:29]: Yeah, but they'll just do it wrong. 

Kim McCullough [56:32 - 56:33]: They'll be the worst player. 

Mike Bonelli [56:33 - 56:34]: It's great that you jumped. 

Kim McCullough [56:34 - 57:22]: I got this. But the girls will be. The girls will be the best player on the ice and will not want to show it because not only do they not want to do it wrong, they don't want to be seen as the girl who. Oh, she thinks she's so good. Oh. Like, these are just truisms. I'm not. It's neither good nor bad. I've coached every age and every level of girls hockey. Like, I've seen it all. And that happens with the seven year olds and it happens with the 17 year olds. So that is something that, you know, being a female in the female game really gives you that insight that it would be very, very hard to have, you know, unless you were super in tune with your teenage daughters as a male, and you really understood those. Those mindsets. So it's definitely a secret power that we have as women in the game, I think. 

Sheri Hudspeth [57:22 - 57:49]: Yeah. The empathy that we have from coaching, like, Kim, you were that little girl. I was that little girl. Like, we were 1314 year old little girls. We know that social pressure that comes from other girls and being a woman, like, think we, we can coach with that sort of empathy and stuff because we've lived it. Whereas men, I think they just do the straight up game. Like, here's your drills, here's your power play, here's your stuff. They don't have. They haven't experienced that emotion that we have and that social pressure that we have in girls hockey. So. 

Mike Bonelli [57:50 - 59:54]: Yeah, yeah. But the funny thing is, just to get off the girls hockey side, too, is that that's happening more and more for the boys because of social media and because of the. And because of the way boys now, young boys, not. I'm talking about 18 year olds. Well, 18 year olds, too. But, like, in the. In the. In the. In the stages of development, the ability for any child to look at somebody else succeed and them not is now, like, I didn't know I wasn't any good. I thought I was pretty good in my town. I'm like, I'm one of the best player out here, but if I had social media back then, I'd be like, oh, my God, I'm terrible. I'm not a good twelve year old. So I think it's both. It's like, for men and women, and from the guy's perspective, men that are coaching hockey that played at a high level, they don't. You never went through that experience, so it's hard to have that empathy and that understanding that, oh, my God. Like, these kids, like, no, they're really not doing that well. Kind of like Kim, like your daughter, like, don't tell me I'm doing good. Cause I'm not. Like, I know I'm not doing well, so don't tell me I'm doing well. But I think that's. I think it's melding into the boy side, too. As far as. And Lee talks about this a lot on the mental fitness side of is all of us, as coaches, have to understand that that pressure is so much greater now. And a lot of it's our fault, right? Because I'm showing my kids, oh, look what this person's doing. Look at that person in Toronto's doing. Look at that person in Australia is doing. We never had to do that. And now it's like, everybody is in. Everybody's at the same level or the same age, and they're at these other levels you never knew about. So I think it's. There's. There's a lot to be said for both, but no doubt about that having a female on a female coach on a team is important. Not a. Well, a for the locker room, b for the social piece, c for the peer piece. But I think just a lot of that ability to have another person in the room that really does understand and can talk to a group of young ladies in a way that, you know, most males just can't. 

Sheri Hudspeth [59:54 - 1:00:25]: I think some of the stuff, too, that parents don't see is what goes on behind a bench. Like, I've had girls in a tight game, a zero, zero game, or it goes to overtime, and there's. There's some girls that are like, no coach. Like, you know, they don't want to go because they don't want to be the one that screws up. Right? And they'll just be like, oh, my leg hurts or something. Right? And then you get lit up by parents like, why wasn't my kid on the ice? They don't know that the kid has, like, anxiety from that pressure. They don't want to be on the ice. So you put out other kids, and it's just stuff like that that goes on, that, like, that parents don't even know about. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:00:25 - 1:02:58]: And this is where communication comes in. I was going to say, too, like, it's a broad thing that we talk about all the time, that ten out of ten issues always involve some. Some form of poor communication. Right? So. And this goes every different direction. Right? Coaches talking to parents, parents talking to coaches, players to coaches, and back and forth. And I think that that's something that, you know, Kim, you were talking before about girls on boys teams. A lot of times I find in those situations, there's not much dialogue between those families and the coach when there really needs to be. Be right. Of expectations, of understanding. I would never agree with a coach, I think, that says, oh, we don't want girls on their team, but you got to have that conversation. Right. And it's a real disservice to everybody when you don't communicate. And I think that, Mike, to your point, we're in a time period now where the kids especially, but it's true for adults, too. There's hyper awareness now. There's so much more awareness of everything going on around us because of the way society as social media is, that it's creating new problems. But with that said, we're so used to texting now, especially kids, that we're not communicating. So you have hyper awareness without the communication. That is not a good recipe for success. So a lot of times, especially when I'm working with the younger ages, and I mean, twelve down. Although this is still something I have to do with the older kids. We do communication drills where you're not going to get a pass if I don't hear you asking for the past or Mike. Mike said this on a show once. It was really impactful. The goal of every drill should not be to conclude with a shot. Sometimes the drill is no. Communicate and figure it out a way out of this problem. And in my opinion, this goes broader than just girls or boys hockey. That's a skill set we need to develop. And I think Sheri and Kim, you brought up a good point that it probably benefits different aspects of the game in different ways. But, like, I'm just talking about. That's something I'm seeing on a broader sense across the board. I mean, and look, I can summarize like this. In society, we have a hard time speaking with each other now. Like, that was not always true. You could disagree with someone not that long ago. It would be a conversation, you'd buy a sandwich and you'd move on. That's not how it works anymore. So, anyway, not trying to bring this to the societal level. I shouldn't have done that. But communication and then the hyper awareness, those are kind of new things nowadays that we have to tackle as coaches and as a group. 

Kim McCullough [1:02:59 - 1:03:33]: Well, I think there's, you know, Sheri made a good point about them hiding on the bench. I did this years ago because of that parent problem. You know, like, how come Sally's not out there? And I just did it as, like, a social experiment. So I had, you know, a U 15 double A team. And I said, if you guys could only pick power play or penalty kill, which one would you pick? Right? And I had them do it blind because, you know, the girls aren't putting up their hands if they're looking at each other. No way. So they have their heads down. They put their hand up. Well, based on the paper, with my 15 skaters, I only got three kids on the power play. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:03:33 - 1:03:33]: Right. 

Kim McCullough [1:03:34 - 1:03:45]: That's an interesting power play. Right? And so that's information that, you know, it's just in my pocket. I suggest, you know, if you're coaching girls hockey, it's just an interesting exercise to do. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:03:45 - 1:03:45]: That's a good point. 

Kim McCullough [1:03:45 - 1:04:11]: Because they don't necessarily necessarily want to be the one. Now, to me, I go, okay, well, you know, maybe I could have fixed this. If I had these kids when they were seven and eight, you know, but at 1314, they don't want to be the one. And so when, you know, the papa is mad that they're not out there on the power play, say, well, you know, I did this pretty official survey, and only three of them want to be on the power play. And so we're just doing the best we can. We go. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:04:11 - 1:04:14]: It's your job, Kim, to make sure they all want to be on the power play. 

Kim McCullough [1:04:14 - 1:04:22]: Yeah, but I'm guessing you guys would have to tell me, Mike, like, Lee, if you ask the boys, everyone's on the power play. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:04:22 - 1:04:22]: Everyone. 

Mike Bonelli [1:04:22 - 1:04:24]: They all think they're on the power. 

Kim McCullough [1:04:24 - 1:04:26]: There's a difference. Right. 

Sheri Hudspeth [1:04:26 - 1:04:27]: And that's nice selling. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:04:27 - 1:04:30]: That's a good comeback to my sarcastic dad there. That was good. 

Kim McCullough [1:04:30 - 1:05:44]: Yeah, yeah. It's all, again, these are just things that are. Or important to know and to communicate. But, you know, I say with the coaches, you've got to be empowered with this kind of information. So if the parents come at you, you can say, well, actually, the girls aren't necessarily wanting to be the leader. And I think that's, you know, like you said earlier, putting them in the positions to succeed. Right. To be on the super team, where you're the 12th best skater as a girl, I think, is a really bad place to be. I'd rather see that girl stay at her home center and be the one, because there's a lot of interesting thing that happens when you're in the top three or four players on your team. And I just think for women, you know, in empowerment, I think that's a really powerful position to be in. And to get that experience, I think is huge for your whole life, as opposed to go into the super team and, like, you know, you're. You're just another person. Right. And, you know, if you play college hockey, you'll become that other person one day, and you'll know what it means to not be the one anymore. But I do think it's very empowering for younger girls to stay in a situation where they can be the lead dog and have to rise to the occasion. I think that's an important. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:05:44 - 1:07:05]: I was gonna say, kim, our statistics show that you actually were that one player in college as a leading goal. I'm just teasing you now. Yeah, she's nodding. For those of you listening, joking aside, you're a great teammate, you're a great leader and a great player. You know, another. Another thing, I do a lot of work in team dynamics and team building and team mental fitness. As Mike said, one of the things I've noticed, and I was educated on this by a prominent female coach, is the difference between healthy competition and collaborative competition in men and women's sport, where, and this is not. This is not a black and white situation. It's not true of every athlete, but that a healthy, healthy competition in men's sports in terms of putting one kid against the other kid over and over again. Boys thrive in that environment where we find women or young girls. Do not. You want a collaborative competition where it's, hey, you two are working together to solve this goal. We found that to be far more efficient of a training method than pitting them against each other. I wanted to throw that out there and just kind of put it up for discussion because I. Look, there are some scenarios. You do have to go one on one. You do have to understand how to battle or hunt, as you said, kim. But I found that from a training standpoint with. With young girls, creating a collaborative competition was very beneficial. 

Kim McCullough [1:07:06 - 1:09:05]: Well, they're there because they want to be part of a team. Like I always say, if you wanted to be an individual sport like take up golf, this is not the place for you. And the girls really do thrive in that environment. They want that. They want to see their teammates succeed. They want to work together with them. I mean, I'm always just so impressed, you know, like, I'll be on the bench and there'll be, like, a kid who's kind of the slowest one or the one who's doing the wrong stuff. And, you know, me and my super competitive head is like. And I'm like, I hope no one else is, like, thinking the same thing about Sally. And they're all like, yeah, Sally, you did great. Like, they're just defeating me at every. Every turn. I'm expecting the worst, but they just. They want to do it as a group. And that's what I meant earlier, right, is that you can have a lot of success on the ice by exploiting that want to do it all together. And that's a bit of the challenge of coaching, is how do you keep the creativity in, keep that problem solving in without going too much to pass it here, do this, do this, do this. And giving them the answer. So it's having them work together to find the answer, having them fill the bucket, as opposed to us as coaches, saying, here are all the answers, do it this way. And that just takes longer, and it requires us to be patient, which is the p word. I am definitely not patient, but I am trying to learn patience to say, I need you to make all these mistakes. I need you guys to figure this out on your own so that we can have that conversation. Hey, did you see how that worked? What did you do there? You know, why do we do it this way and make them a part of the process? And I find the girls just thrive with that kind of questioning environment versus. They will do it the way you fill the cup and tell them to do it. But then as they move up in different levels or they want that college scholarship or they want to play in the PW or on the Olympic team, those players are creative. 

Sheri Hudspeth [1:09:05 - 1:09:05]: Yeah. 

Kim McCullough [1:09:05 - 1:10:16]: You stand in the right place in d zone coverage, no problem. That takes them about three minutes to figure out a right. But how the heck do you stop Natalie Spooner? Or how the hell do you get around Renata fast? There's no formula for that, guys. Right. That's creativity. And so that's, I think, you know, a little bit of that problem solving is how we're going to solve it without giving them the answer. Right. But being patient enough as coaches and parents to say, you're going to screw this up a lot of times until you find the answer for that one moment on the ice, that will never happen again, and then you're going to need a different answer. But I agree with you. I just think they're not lone wolfs out there. And often the players that are a little bit more of that mindset, they don't quite last in the girls environment, even if they're phenomenal players. There's sort of this need to come together as a group. And if you're a little bit too much individually focused, that's really hard in the girls game. Those players, even though they're phenomenal, they just stick out like a sore thumb. I don't know. Sheri might have a different experience of that, but I think that's. Those are the challenging ones when they don't quite buy into the whole team concept. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:10:17 - 1:10:18]: I'll say this, that. 

Kim McCullough [1:10:19 - 1:10:19]: That. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:10:19 - 1:11:53]: That old line from the hangover, the one man wolf pack, that's a pretty good way to describe boys hockey. Whereas I think gorillas hockey is more of just a wolf pack in general. Right. But, Kim, you're saying. I just want to reiterate the importance of what you said about coaching creativity. This is across the board. It's not just hockey. We gotta teach our kids to think, period. Like those. Those critical thinking skills. And I think a lot of I'll just say, adults like, you wanna give them the answer because you care about them, you want them to know, but the truth is, you have to let them discover the answer a lot of the times. Again, this is not limited to hockey. Right? You gotta teach them to think. And as Kim said, that coaching, the creativity, right. Creativity is a huge part of the game. It's a huge separator in the game amongst the great players and the players who just go do what they're told. Um, we are going here. This has been a great episode so far. I think this is a great place to end unless anybody has any of the questions they want to ask, because, Kim, you've just provided so much insight. I was saying while I was sitting here in my own head, like, all the hockey dads are just nodding their head right now with all the information you're dropping. And I am definitely going to tell my daughter to hunt for the puck because she is very much a stay at home, protect the net defenseman and does not really jump. And we've been trying to figure out a way as coaches to kind of help her understand that. I think you dropped that right. Is go hunting for the puck. So I'm going to give a try and report back in a part two episode with you. But does anybody else have any other questions before. Before I close this out? 

Sheri Hudspeth [1:11:53 - 1:11:56]: No, this is great. Thank you for being here, Kim. 

Mike Bonelli [1:11:56 - 1:12:01]: No, we didn't get the team. We didn't even get the team. Iceland. So I guess we have to have a. 

Kim McCullough [1:12:01 - 1:12:24]: Well, we're going to have to do part two. Part two, part three. You know, I've been traveling all over the world coaching team Iceland. Super fun. So, yeah, I'm happy to come and talk. As you guys can tell, I love it and I appreciate all the insights and for putting up for it with a Torontonian for an hour talking hockey, it's a lot. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:12:24 - 1:12:30]: This is like the end of a Marvel film. It's like, coach Kim will return. We'll do one of those like that. 

Kim McCullough [1:12:30 - 1:12:50]: Whenever you'll have me, I'd be happy to chat, so you guys just let me know. Thank you so much for the opportunity. And, yeah, like I said, I love to share. And so if people want to reach out, email, whether you're coaching boys or girls anywhere in the world, this is what I love to do, so I'm happy to help any way I can. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:12:50 - 1:13:24]: Well, look, your pride and passion for the game are clearly pouring through in this episode. We love guests that love to talk. It makes the podcast much easier I'm not going to lie to you. So whether you're listening, listening to this or watching this, Kim, you have been a fantastic guest, and we've shed a lot of light on a lot of topics today. The goal of these episodes, all of our episodes across the border, to learn and to educate and have a great conversation, because we think that from great conversations is where the education comes. And that's what we need to do more as a hockey society. So as Sheri and Mike said, thank you so much for being here today. 

Kim McCullough [1:13:24 - 1:13:28]: My pleasure. Thanks, guys. Have a great hockey season. And just around the corner. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:13:28 - 1:14:22]: Yeah, it's only twelve more months to go, as I like to say. So that's going to do it for this edition of our girls play hockey. Remember, you can listen to all of the our girls play hockey or our kids play hockey or the ride to the rink or our kids play goalie on the our kids play hockey network at our kidsplay hockey.com. did I say our kids play hockey enough in that outro, I think I did want to thank all you for listening today. Again, if you have any questions, you can email us team at, you guessed it, our kidsplayhockey.com. we'll see you on the next episodes. Thanks so much. And as we always say here, skate on. We hope you enjoyed this edition of our kids play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or our website, ourkidsplayhockey.com. also, make sure to check out our children's book when hockey stops@whenhockeystops.com. it's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much much for listening to this edition of our kids play hockey and we'll see you on the next episode.