Are We Developing Stars or Teams? With Matt Dumouchelle

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Hello, hockey friends and families around the world, and welcome to another episode of Our Kids Play Hockey. I'm Leah Elias, and I'm joined by my co-host Mike Vinelli, Christian Cassiana Burns is on assignment today. And our guest today is someone whose perspective always makes us stop and think. Literally, that is how the episode was formed today. Matt Dumaschel is joining us again. He's a hockey development consultant, a writer, and a returning friend of the show, as I said. You've probably seen his work on the coaches site where his series Hockey Factories dives deep into how elite programs around the world develop players and teams. We did a whole episode on it. Make sure you check it out. His last name is spelled D-U-M-O-U-C-H E-L-L-E. Pronounce DuMichel. It's one of my favorite names to say. He recently shared a post that caught a lot of attention during this year's World Junior Hockey Championship. I do have to say, I know a lot of you know what the World Junior Hockey Championship is. Happens every year around the new year. It is the best young talent in the world, basically an Olympic type setting. It is one of the greatest, if not the greatest, tournament on the planet. I am not exaggerating that. I think the only thing that trumps the World Junior Championship is probably the Stanley Club playoffs. Okay. So this is this is a top event. And it begged the question his post. And we're going to give you some context on this in a minute. But the question is are we building teams or just chasing superstars too early? And it's a very, very poignant question because as the world, the hockey world's talking about, um Canada was eliminated in the semifinal. USA was actually eliminated prior to that. And it's creating a lot of questions. Now, Canada has not won this tournament in uh in three seasons now. I know that's a pain to a lot of our Canadian listeners. Um I'm gonna read you a small portion of his post, and then throughout the episode, we are really gonna discuss other aspects of it. But this is gonna be an important discussion about the future of hockey development, and it's gonna be really interesting for you to listen to. So here's just the first part of the post um before we dive into the conversation. So this is what he wrote Canada population, 41 million Chechia population, 10.9 million youth hockey players in Canada, 600,000 plus youth hockey players in Chechia, 85,000 plus public ice rinks in Canada, 7,000 public ice rinks in Chechia, 22. I'm sorry, 220. And yet for the third year in a row, Canada has been eliminated by Chechia in the World Junior Hockey Championship. We should give quick congratulations to Sweden, uh, who won the whole thing. Uh, congratulations to them. But let me just say, Matt, welcome back to another episode. Uh, we're really gonna dive into the lessons uh that you've uncovered from countries like Chechia and what it all means for uh you know youth hockey in North America. But again, thank you so much for coming back and giving us time today.

SPEAKER_02 4:11

No, awesome to see you guys again. Hope you had a great holiday. Excited to uh catch up again.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

Yeah, no, we're we're happy to have you here. So let me just pick up where we left off, right? You compared Canada's massive resources. You could do something similar with the USA to check you a smaller footprint, yet they eliminated Canada three straight years. Okay. What did that result in quote uh from the the Czech uh coach, Patrick Augusta, where he said, Hey, we're a little more hungry than Canada reveal to you about hockey development culture? Because I thought that was an interesting thing to hear as well.

SPEAKER_02 4:43

Yeah, to me that that quote really stood out. Um, you know, in a few different ways, the way that uh the he makes the point of talking about being a little more hungry. Um, the guys showed that they're a team, they showed character and will. Uh, and you see that with these European clubs in general when they're playing in these big tournaments. Um, you know, Latvia does not have superstars, they did pretty well last year. They they beat Canada last year in the in the round, Robin Wright, and and sent everybody into a frenzy that year, too. You know, Finland does not have ultimate superstars, but they're a great team, they play a great system, they love puck possession, and you know, that's the way that they win hockey games. And and you see that in a lot of different European models where you know Canada and the in the US in general, we talk about the flash, we talk about the superstars, the incredible skill, which I don't think anybody is or should be questioning. The the top end talent that gets developed in Canada and the US is is better than some of these other countries, but the team aspect of things is again, it offsets all of that, especially when you're playing these one-game elimination winner takes all kinds of tournaments.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

Yeah, yeah, go ahead, Mike.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

No, well, I was gonna say, like, so I've I've come, it's so funny because in in and watching, you know, I I love Matt's series on the hockey factories and and and learning what what the leaders in our industry are doing in their own internal, you know, ecosystems of hockey. And I think that is a and then based off of your uh you know your observations, Matt of the World Juniors, and then the subsequent, you know, social media blast, you know, from from everyone all over the place, you know, chiming in, that you know, ranging from, well, that that's the best system in the world to we have to rebuild everything in North America and you know, ground up. Yeah. And I think what happens is, and I've come, I've really come full circle on this because I think of my uh in the last like six or seven years, I've been very involved in like the youth brick level quench series, rose series, elite of the elite. Now, again, I know throwing around elite, but you're I think you're absolutely right. And I think I think the, you know, when we talk about this, the focus is on, I think on your conversation was more around what did those teams do in that short period of time rather than oh, guess what? They have a better development system because they have much better players. And I don't think that's the case because I think we we I think I think we're I think there is such a great advantage when you look at those numbers and you say, um, Chechia, how how what were the numbers on on their on their uh development model for youth?

SPEAKER_02 7:23

Like there's about 600,000 plus youth hockey players in Canada and about 85,000 in in in Chechia.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

And I think there's I think I personally think that because of those European countries like that, it's their advantage that those kids play together longer for longer periods of time at earlier ages. Because here it's like cutthroat. Like if I don't make the if I'm not the top player on my team in my district, I'm going to another. So our our players never play as the best teams. All these European players, if you really look at the numbers, they are playing together as a team longer. So yes, they're they're developing, but I think what your your point is like, my god, you get you're putting these kids, and I think that hunger was a great uh you know, a great message because that coach and that system have those kids longer together and say, listen, we're we are us against the world where Canada or the US is just throwing a bunch of kids on a bus and going to play in a game and saying, hey, you gotta you gotta play for your country. I'm like, I don't know, I haven't seen this, I haven't seen this guy in like seven months. So I think it's it's a it's a it's a it's a really it's a slippery slope to say they have a better development model and we have to throw ours away rather than say, well, those teams just have a better team tournament model, maybe, because of the way they structure how they pick their teams.

SPEAKER_02 8:46

Yeah, I I think there's a lot there, Mike, really. And and you know, one of the comments that I saw um throughout the uh when when people were reacting to the post was, you know, all if Macklin Celebrini wasn't there, that makes a big difference. Uh, you know, how many players are in the in the NHL that were eligible to play in the tournament? Sure, like I'm nobody's saying that we don't develop players very well. I mean, if you were to list the top 10 players in the NHL, a good handful of them are gonna be Canadian, a good handful of them are gonna be, you know, nobody's disputing that by by any means. But I I think you're right. I think what we the way that we look at development as a whole as a whole, we almost feel like and and we're talking about 11, 12, 13-year-olds younger in some cases of that, is that you know, once we've found somebody that's a little bit faster than everybody else, we put them in a different area, a different pathway than the the other kids that are there. And it's just not the way to do it. You know, that when we talk about the European clubs and and kind of the point that I was going to get across with that post and hope I did, is you know, when you look at small countries, we did a feature on Latvia last year with with hockey factories, or I guess it was this uh this previous uh season that we did. Um, you know, they they have no choice, they have to develop every kid for as long as possible because instead of being in Canada where we have 600,000 kids registered, and you know, you cut one kid, there's a line of hundreds of them behind you. In Latvia, you don't you don't know. I mean, if if you've got 200 kids enrolled by the end of you know U17, life changes, interest changes. Oh, that's the like you're you're looking to put together the best 25 kids, that's a tough percentage to pull from if you're selecting kids at a 11, 13-year-old age and dividing them from everybody else.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

Yeah, I I got a I've got a few things I want to dive into here. And I should say this too. I should have said it in the open. If it it would behoove all of you to take a look at Matt's post on LinkedIn, not just that post, but everything you write, Matt, is really insightful and awesome. Uh so please do that. You know, one of the things I want to bring up, kind of to continue this conversation, is that the the I'll use the word panic or the disappointment in Canada for this team losing, I think it's a little overboard. I really do. Like we're we're pointing all the fingers at kids, you know, and I know it's been three years in a row. Like, don't get me wrong, I understand that, but it's it's it's overboard for me from a fan perspective. Right? It's a tournament, like it's a one and done tournament. You there's always a chance you're gonna lose. I also think that when we put all of the onus on Canada as a loser, I'm not saying that's that came across so harsh. I didn't mean it too. I'm just saying like I didn't mean it like our audience. Toronto, I was I did not mean that the way it sounded. I probably heard it in my headphones. I didn't what I'm saying is Canada losing sometimes takes away from hey, Checha and Sweden are getting better as well, right? Like the the the hockey globe is getting better. I I I I don't like to take things away from that. Look, I'm American, my team didn't do well either. Okay. Um, but Matt, to your point, and this this is where I'm kind of I I agree with you, right? Uh, and for the audience here too, like the youth hockey audience, I am so envious of hockey development in other countries um and the way that they develop their players. Because you said it, like you use the yo, I'll use the word identify. We identify players and pluck them. And then we use all our resources as hockey Canada, USA hockey to develop those players. And I'm not saying that's wrong, but it's it's different. You said it. You don't have the opportunity to do that in other countries. You must develop players, and I think what that uncovers is that you know, the kid who's not skating amazing at 11, that doesn't necessarily mean they're not gonna be great, right? They don't have a choice. And you know, that leads me to the next question here. It was from your post. It's a great quote. Canada spends 95% of its resources developing 5% of its players. I mean, that really hits home. Why do you think that the top-down model persists? And what are the practical steps that all youth teams can take to make every player better instead of filtering out? Because I think that that is a big problem. Not to mention, I know we have higher populations in North America, but I've always said this. Are we getting the best athletes from these countries? Because we're constantly telling people no, you're not you're not good enough, or we're pricing people out. You see where I'm going with this? Like 95% of resources to five percent of players. I that bothers me a little bit, Matt. I'm not gonna lie to you.

SPEAKER_02 13:35

No, for for sure. And and you know, I I think you're you're bang on with that, and and that's a line that um somebody that that I was working uh with in just in just conversation uh in in Europe had mentioned, and uh, you know, that really brought pause to me of like, you know, that's that's not far off. That's a pretty good assessment. Because, you know, I mean, we we love and pride ourselves in Sidney Crosby and Nate McKinnon and Connor McDavid and Connor, but you know, those guys that those are Canadian players through and through. But I think we're again we're so quick to pull the trigger on younger kids who I go back to Latvia again. Bob Hartley, uh, I had on uh and did an interview with because he was the national team coach, and he was the guy who really changed the mindset in that country of you know, we're playing five on five, whether we're playing against Austin Matthews or we're playing against Nathan McKinnon. Like there's five of you, there's five of them. Right. You go into a tournament already down one-nothing in your head, you're never gonna, you're never gonna compete, right? So his part with development is you never know that that 10-year-old that's a little bit of a deer on skates or is a little bit bigger than everybody else. Um, at 16, who knows? You know, that we don't introduce checking until 13. We're not playing hockey before 13. It's you know, it's more more of a pond model than anything else, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:56

So yeah, I I I gotta reiterate. I I tell this to parents all the time. I just got it. I I know what it's a small deviation that before checking is in the sport, you're playing a little bit of a different sport. For sure. And I think it's so important that parents who believe that their kid is uber talented and they may be, don't get me wrong, that when when someone could put a shoulder through your kid's chest, yeah, that is when you will find out how talented they really are. And my point with that, Matt, is just be realistic with that. That's part of the development. It's it's it's important that you know that. Sorry, go ahead, Matt.

SPEAKER_02 15:33

Yeah, no, absolutely. But but you're right. When it when it comes to the the development model, I you know, and I hate to say it, I feel like so much of it is triggered around money. You know, end of the day, there's a lot of people that can make a lot of money by telling you that your kid's elite or that you need this or you need that. And and you know, do we have all of the ice to be able to get all of these players the same amount of training? We don't, and nobody does. There's no country that that does. So that's where we kind of end up falling into this individual coaching model, and and that's where we escape from this team concept that European clubs do so well and play so well in these tournaments. You know, we all have individual skating coaches, we've got shooting coaches for individuals now, goalies have individual coaches, you know, there's so much of that around. It's hard to blend that into a team concept if you're working with a kid one-on-one. So, Mike, like you said uh a little bit earlier on, not only are we bringing in players from all kinds of different junior programs and leagues and all that to create one team for the world juniors, but we've got so many kids playing even junior hockey, younger than that, in in minor hockey, that aren't being taught team concepts. They're being taught how to skate faster, shoot harder in in those individual type of mindsets where you know you've got a kid that can go past three defensemen um with no problem at all now, just the handles that they have and and all that. But if they end up in the corner, they don't know what to do, right? They don't know where their teammates are gonna be, they don't know how to move the puck. And that's the team model that that I feel like we're missing where Europe embraces.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

Yeah, and well, I and I don't even know, like I think I I don't know. I've I've changed I've changed my tune on this so much only because of the involvement I see at the younger levels with let's call it let's call it what it is, elite teams, right? If you have a if you're in if you are in like this brick phenomenon right now in the last 10 years, and you look at those statistics from kids that are selected at an early age, these are kids that are plucked out of these regions that 85%, and these aren't like these aren't make-believe numbers, 85% of a kid on a brick team, like in my region, is playing division one college hockey when they when they get when they get after 10 years old. So at 10 years old, 85 or more percent. And the kids that aren't playing college hockey are playing college lacrosse or college baseball, like they're elite athletes. So I think there is I I said, so I've I've I've I've the last like couple of years, I really pushed back on the the early spec the early identification. And I think if you toast Sweden and Finland and Czech or whoever else, and you said, listen, what you can't do is the kids that are in these little villages and these towns all around Europe, they have to stay with their own town. And they can't play together. They're gonna play, they're gonna be the best kid on their team, he's gonna be the best kid on his team. That model wouldn't exist. They're they're just they're it's funny, but they're benefiting from being small. They're benefiting from the fact that they have to consolidate their kids. Because again, like I said, if I'm a kid in Connecticut and I don't make uh the top team in my region, I can go to New York and play on the quote unquote best team in New York. And and so it's I don't think because I think these kids are unbelievably talented. Like when you watch those games, you're like, that looks like a pro game. It looks like a college hockey game. Oh yeah, yeah, oh yeah. And and and and I think I think the pushback for me, because I'm listening, I'm I'm I'm all in like early, you know, early identification. I didn't, you know, did but when you really look at it, you say, holy crap, like 85% of the kids that were selected at 10 years old are going on to play division one college hockey. So somebody must be able to see it. Like you like, so so the the question now becomes it are we doing a disservice to the fact that we're not building these super teams? I mean, Russia did it. This is before anybody even knew anything, right? They pluck all these kids out of all these places and they put them in Siberia and they bring gold after gold after gold after gold.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

I mean, you gotta be careful with that one, Mike. I mean, that that was under duress. I mean, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 19:39

But no, but I'm saying, but they but listen, I see a lot of kids under duress right now. So I think it's true. I I think it's more, I think it's more of like the the the small the small countries and these small places are benefiting from the fact that they're like Matt's saying, they're forced to develop the best kids from these little towns into one place because the kids have no options, they can't stay in their own town and play. Where where us in Canada and the US, you could pick seven teams that are the best teams. Well, and and I think it but it but I mean it still comes back to I guess the question is are we building the best teams or are we building the best players? And can the best players then play on the best team?

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Yeah, look, I'm gonna I'm just gonna tag onto that, Matt. I want you to answer it, but it's a little bit of an ethical question, too. All right, of okay, so we've identified you early. Mike, let's use your stats at face value. Like, okay, the identifying works, right? But what about the other 95%? Who cares? Right? Well, and well, that's the ethical question. Is is like like should governing bodies be saying that? All right, and like that's an actual question I'm asking. I don't have the answer for that, right? Like, like, because there's gonna be people saying, no, we want to win, we gotta pick the top people and develop the top people. Then there's also the ethical question of well, wait, wait a minute here. This is youth sports, right? All right, and is it the responsibility of hockey Canada and team or um uh USA hockey? Is it their responsibility to care? Now, I where I sit, yes, it is, in my opinion, because you have a responsibility to grow the game. I actually think there is a version where both of these things can kind of coexist, uh, but I think it's top heavy right now.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

Well, then they have to cut the then they have to cut themselves out of the elite model, like again, because I think you know, Matt had a great somebody made a great post in Matt's uh one of Matt's comments was you know, the the objective of European teams and these small market programs is to develop the the most kids for the longest period of time. I think that's a great understanding of how Europe develops. I mean, I'm a I'm in Norway a lot, right? They don't they don't cut kids until they don't even make cuts until 13.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

Right. Yeah, and you're right, Mike. And and the way that that gets brought up in those European countries in the way it is, is is just the model that they have, right? We're in North America, it's you know, we get it gets pumped into it, especially in Ontario where where I am. Like if you don't get drafted in the OHL, it it's pretty much done. You know, like that that's it for you. Where WHL is even younger. Where in Europe, the the model that they're going after is they're trying to fill their full their first teams, right? So, you know, uh there's a lot of company, uh, countries, uh few programs that I've I've done research on that, you know, the mandate of the first team is that 50% of their players come through their organization. So they're not just out buying the best players from across the all of you know all over the country, all over the world. So they have a longer runway because ultimately they're looking at the 23-year-old window, maybe for when that kid is ready to make the jump to their first team. Where here, I mean, it's 16, it's 17, it's 18, it's you know, every year all the way through. So they have a longer runway for sure. But what they do with that is they get to include more people for longer, because uh nobody's gonna argue those numbers, and the numbers are incredible when you when you look at you know the kids that play elite programs and and and back and forth like that. But you know, ultimately there it's a different system, they have a different mindset of the whole thing, and and not to say one's right and one's wrong, um, but you know, the way that they've been able to do that over the last 10 to 15 years, the evolution of of the skill that's coming. From Europe has been fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

Yeah, but it's funny when you're got Lee, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

No, you go. All I was just saying is it's different.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

Yeah, it's just funny though, when you're in Europe and you and you're dealing with the leaders in these European programs, they they're starting to lean, like they're swaying towards the North American model. Like they want earlier specialization, they want more travel, they want to uh expose their kids to international play. Where before it was like, you know, I'm I remember, and and maybe like I'll use Norway as one example. Like maybe that's why they can't get on the world stage because they're not allowing their kids to go out of the country until they're 15, 16, 17 years old. Like, you know what I mean? Like as far as like a team goes. Like you have to you have to kind of make you know, you have to hide your like you have to do it on your own. The national program's not doing that. And I think that's where like our our own national program is doing it just internally because we're able to do it because of our vast, you know, the the the the infrastructure what we have. But I think to Matt's point of like these these these forced development models, it's almost like the way it should be, right? That if you live in a region, you shouldn't be able to pop out of that region. You should force the development to to to implode on itself and develop it. You know, if you live outside this place, then you can't go play for another, you can't go get on a plane and go play for somebody else. And I think that's where you know we have that option here. You don't you don't you really don't have that option in Finland, um, you know, to say, oh, I'm gonna go play in uh I'm gonna go play in uh in Germany, you know, because my kid's the best kid. So I think it's it's it's uh it's an interesting because there's no doubt about the fact that the European teaching model is what we all want to aspire to. Oh, yeah. More kids, more touches, tons of reps, positive play. Well, it's no doubt about that.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

Like, we gotta talk about the coaching here too. Like we're talking about resources and how much funds go to the top five percent. Well, Matt, I think you really opened up my eyes in in hockey factories and other things of how coaching works in youth hockey because there's a major investment into the coaching of new hockey players in these countries. Now, I gotta I gotta preface this too. Populations are a lot smaller, so you can do this, right? You can't necessarily do this in North America. I wish we could. Um, you know, North America's version of this is well, we put our coaches through uh CEP, right? Coaching education programs, and that and and you know, those are what they are. I'm not I'm not gonna comment on that. But you know, I'll tell you right now, when you're paying your youth coaches, you're going to get better development. And you know, one of my favorite models, I cannot remember what country did this, but was where they had kids together for three seasons at a time with one coach. I mean, I'm telling you, as someone who does youth coaching, I would love that. I would love to know I've got kids for three years. First off, I wouldn't have to deal with every December and January of like, well, we're looking at other programs, we're looking at other teams, and I have to be like, okay, go look, go look at them.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

It's actually the best model for challenge, too. It's like, hey coach, you think you're a coach, here's a bunch of eight-year-olds, you gotta keep them until they're 11.

SPEAKER_02 26:25

Yeah, no choice.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

You want to see somebody work their ass off to get those kids better because they're gonna be stuck with this team, you know. And I think going back to your point, Lee, about paying coaches, listen, I've I've said this since the day I started as a hockey director. If I take one tournament a year, one, one tournament a year is about $35,000 collectively of my team. You can't hire the best coach around your community that's gonna like a 27-year-old kid that just played college hockey or pro hockey that's gonna be with your team for the for two or three years. You can you're not gonna you pay that kid $36,000, you're not gonna do it. That's there's there's uh you'll have a you'll have a line outside the door. Yeah, but we choose to do these other things. We're choosing, like in Europe, which is great, you go in, you have to be you have to be a like basically a teacher. Like you have to go through this whole certification process and you're paid. Like you you go in the office every day, you're going to the office to work, like you're going off to coach. Our coaches are there just saying, hey, how what what can the what's the best deal I could get at the Marriott this weekend? Like, like so. I think it's just a different, it's a different mindset of development and and focus. And I think you mentioned it too. It's it's all about, you know, we're if we're cat if we're you know clicking off the wins, yeah, and not the win is wow, I've got I've got 95% of my team is playing next year, then then that's that's a whole nother that's a whole nother uh you know discussion. I think.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Yeah, can you tell a little bit passionate about this, Matt? Can you tell me?

SPEAKER_02 27:48

That's why when when uh when my phone lights up and it's uh a message from Lee, I'm I get excited because I know we're gonna have a great conversation just just through text, let alone with a chance to get together here. But no, you know, Mike and Lee, you kind of mentioned that too about coach development and and that. And I think one thing that we're missing um just in general, and this isn't a comparison, North America, Europe, anything like that, is is just that support part for coaches. I mean, I as far as educating coaches or or setting evaluations for coaches or you know, expectations or whatever that looks like. I mean, how many boards do you guys know of or work with that hire a coach and announce the coach in in whatever February or whatever it is, season starts in August. You talk to that coach in December and ask him, like, you know, what what is gonna be like how are you evaluating a good season one way or another? They they number one either haven't been told because they've just been handed the keys to the kingdom and and you know, go run your team, it's your team, that's great, which breaks up you know alignment within your organization and all that. And if you want to get me going on alignment, we we may have to book another session. But you know, if if we haven't even helped the coaches understand what the expectation of them is in their role, right, then how are we at the end of the year to say this coach did a good job or a bad job or whatever? You know, Mike, maybe to your point, that U9 coach, his only responsibility is to make sure that every kid that's on his team this year tries out next year. You know, maybe maybe add that they can skate backwards, you know. That's and that's it, right? That's that's all we're looking at. Where you know, at U16 or U17, now we got to win, right? Now you now you have to be in these competitions, you've got to be in these tournaments, you've got to show the that you know that this team is developed, that these team, these players are are good, and and now we've had that process or that pipeline for multiple years to build up to that point where everybody's on the same page, just adding pieces as we go.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you this, Matt. I love that you're bringing this up, all right. Um, for a few reasons. We recently, this past year, did an episode about benchmarks in youth hockey. And we basically looked at every age level and said, you know, by and large, it's not true for every single kid, but this is what your kid should be able to do by the end of 10 U, 12U, 14U. This is where they should start, and this is where we should we should finish. The amount of emails we got from people, like shocked really that well, that's it, like that's all they should be able to do. Um, and it wasn't outrage, it was more like I'm really glad you did this because my expectations were so far ahead, right? Like, and and just an example, it was like power play tactics in 10U, guys. Not a thing, not really a thing. If you can do it, you're way advanced at that point, right? Okay, like and it's like, well, what should be in 10U? Skating is still number one, you know. It's like it's like like the ability to shoot the puck with accuracy is actually the end of 10 u, and that would be an advanced skill, right?

SPEAKER_02 30:56

And that's you know, carry the puck and be able to make a process pass, right? That's where we're not trying to uh to no that that's but that's where we get into creating superstars, right?

SPEAKER_01 31:06

And you've you've in 10 u, I again listen to the episode, my friends. But like the idea was like tactically, it's like just understanding you're on offense or defense and maybe some basic positional elements of that, it's really elementary at that age. So I'm bringing that up because of what you just said. In my experience, and if anyone out there, Mike, anyone, Matt, has a different experience, let me know. But almost none of the coaches are coming in with that information. It's not their fault because they're almost all volunteers. And I'm gonna say, God bless every one of you that volunteers. This is not a criticism of you, but I don't think anyone's gone up to these coaches, 10U, 14U, whatever, and said, these are the benchmarks of skill and IQ for this age. This is what I want to see. I don't think there's any this is what our priorities are as an organization, right? I think I'm sure they have it written on their website somewhere, but there's no talk about it. All right. I'm sure some do this better than others. And I'm bringing this up, Matt Matt. I'm gonna talk to you about this off the air too. I'm gonna tease our audience that I'm working on something here for the next season that I'm gonna report back to everybody. All right. But I'm gonna be in a position to talk to a team next year about what my goals are for the team. And it's a younger team, and I'm gonna be honest with y'all, winning hockey games is not high on the list. However, that is an outcome based on my list, right? Okay, number one being love the game, which has got to be at every level. Number two being the development of your child with the benchmarks of this age level, and then I'm going to explain what those benchmarks are to all the parents. And I believe I will get buy-in from that. This is what my my goal is, and then here's how I'm going to apply it. I'm not gonna tell everybody my plan right now, super secret. I'll let you know.

SPEAKER_02 32:51

What a teaser, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:53

Yeah, I'll you'll you'll find out, Matt. I'll tell you and Mike, but the audience listening. But my point is like, I has anybody ever seen anything like that? Or or is it just a quick parent meeting and hey, your kids are gonna have a lot of fun this year? Which is not wrong. Like, I'm not criticizing that. I'm asking, our coaches are you get do you do you know the benchmarks for the age group you're coaching?

SPEAKER_02 33:14

And and what will get filled in the middle is is lost in translation, right? What what happens if you if the board hasn't communicated to your coaches, this is your expectations, this is what you're going to deliver on this year. That when we sit and talk at the end of the year, we're checking boxes yes or no. This coach did this, this coach didn't do this, whatever that looks like. If you're not having the conversation from the coach to the parent, this is what this year is gonna look like, this is what our practices are gonna look like, this is what we're teaching, this is what we're not teaching. We're you know, we're in we're in no hurry here. This is this is what that's gonna look like. Imagine that. We're in no hurry, hurry here. Can you imagine that? Well, and what gets filled in the middle, number one, from parents, is if you don't have a clear communication pipeline between the coaches and the parents, parents will translate to whatever they want to hear for the best benefit of their kid. That's nobody's fault. That's being a good parent. If you tell me my kid is not great in three subjects in school and unbelievable in one of them, I will get super excited about that one and probably push the other ones aside for now. That's just how some parents will will react to that. But what fills the void, if we haven't explained here's the skills that we're going to learn, here's what we're going to do on a regular basis, is winning because everybody wants to win. So if you haven't explained to the parent group, if you haven't explained to your your as your board to your coaches, if we go 0-14, and at the end of the year these kids have a pizza party and they're sad to leave the rink and they can't wait to come back next year, nobody cares. Yeah, if you haven't said that to them and that's not communicated from top to bottom, what fills the void is winning. And and now comes January, February. We haven't even won a game yet this year. This coach has no idea what they're doing. They put this kid out there. Oh, that kid seems like he's been on the ice a lot longer than the other kid. Uh no, that's not fair. We're not even winning, anyways. This kid's no good, he can't score. It it all just becomes noise, yeah, because at the end of the day, we didn't build out what this is supposed to look like from the top down.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

I'm I'm just gonna bow tie this from what I said too. And and then Mike, I'd love your thoughts on this too. Is that you know, one of the the uh misconception is not the right word, one of the side effects of my style of coaching, to your point, Matt, is sometimes I think people think, well, he doesn't really care about winning, and it's like, man, that is not true. I mean, I I re I'm very competitive, like I want to win every game. My belief is if we truly want to win games, we have to develop the entire team. This is bringing it back to the purpose of the episode. I can I can ride my four best players all season. Yeah, I'll be honest with you, probably won't win. All right, because we're gonna run to a team at some point that figures that out and can shut it down. But if I can develop everybody, and that might mean different things for different players, like so. So again, I'm not saying I need to turn everybody into one of those top four players. What I'm saying is I need everyone to get better so that when the time comes, we can execute.

SPEAKER_03 36:23

Right.

SPEAKER_01 36:23

And and and in my coaching experience, I have seen that happen enough times to say with confidence that's the way it should be done. Okay, and I don't think it's being done enough.

SPEAKER_02 36:33

No, and I'm not gonna I'm uh I want Mike to jump in here and feel like I'm I'm jumping in in the leeches. You're the guest, Matt. That's you're part of this, you're part of this too, right? Lee, like like you get you get that from what you're saying. The evolution of that is you're creating a deeper hockey player from every player that's there, right? You can ride the top three, six players that you have, that's great. But you know, they will have to learn at some point how to kill a penalty because they can score 40 goals when they're U9, but how many, you know, how many U18 kids do you know that scored 40 goals that go to the OHL or USHL that have to score six? I can give you a great example. If we haven't taught it, then we're lost there, right?

SPEAKER_01 37:17

Uh I'll give you a great example also, like, because I don't want I I think people get lost if like, oh, he's just trying to get everybody better, and that's true, but it's like I'll give you a great example. I've got a team, a youth team right now, young younger, right? Younger half. Um, I've got like four skaters who are very talented, they're double-A players, it's obvious, okay. And when I coach this team, it's like I'm not I don't lie to the kids and be like, you can all be at that level by the end of the year. They can't, like there's no way. However, I do talk about roles and I do talk about we have some kids with expert skating ability, and we have kids who need to work on their skating. And I explained that if we work on our skating and you can get to the net with your stick down and ready to shoot, that player will get you the puck. I'm teaching a team dynamic, and I'm very clear. I'm not expecting the the the skater who's not great to do that play. I want you to respond to your teammate. I want your teammate to see you there, and we will build the skill sets that make the team cohesive. I don't ignore, I'm not saying just go to the net and wait. I'm saying there's a lot of dynamics here that we have to teach the team to be a team. Mike, to your point earlier, to me, that's part of coaching. Keeping in mind, too, that those top four players have plenty to work on as well.

SPEAKER_03 38:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:31

All right. I joke about it all the time, like making toe drags at the blue line for no reason. Don't need to be doing that. All right. But here's the thing that team is winning games now because everyone is developing within the team environment and they are developing skill sets to complement each other without me ignoring the the range of standards that we talked about. The benchmark.

SPEAKER_02 38:53

Both kids are learning something, right? If you've got a superstar kid that can skate, now we're teaching you vision. Now we're teaching you to see where your teammates are, to play to skate with your head up, to be aware of your surroundings. The kid that can't skate very well. Now we're teaching him positioning. Now we're teaching him the ability to create time and space, right? Which is an invaluable thing for a hockey player, too. Listen, what goes across his score? Every literally everybody wins.

SPEAKER_01 39:16

Well, and I'm gonna say this too. Um I'm talking as a parent, as a coach, as a dad. When it happened last game, like one of our uh lesser skilled players went to the front of net and scored on a rebound. That kid was revitalized. And when when I watch him come to practice, now he's a different human being because now he knows he can score, right? That's a huge part of this development is that confidence. Here's another the adverse of this. This is one of my most proud moments. Um, one of the talented kids, I mean these kids love shooting top corner and missing the net, right? He saw the kid in front and shot low, and he told me, like, hey, I saw he was there, so I shot low and there's a rebound. Now, that is a massive fundamental hockey IQ skill. Yeah, and it's like I'm dying for my players to come to me and say, Hey, I I saw that. Yeah, and you know, it's uh by the way, I didn't go, I told you, I told you if you went to Minnesota. No, I said, Hey, that's great that you saw that. Now build on that. Sorry, I'm I'm on a I'm on a I'm on a milk crate. Mike, I want you to chime in here too, because we do have to come back to the we're talking about the topic, but I want to keep going with the article.

SPEAKER_00 40:23

No, yeah, you're absolutely you're absolutely right. And I think going, uh you know, and again, that's that's this is why I am the best at what I do. And and it's because I listen to Matt and Lee and I will I read and I I educate them. I run a co like so every organization I work with, we run a coaching academy. That's the first thing we do. And that was all and a lot of that was, you know, a lot of that I got from you know hockey factories. A lot of that I got from watching the room and saying, wow, we could we always done this, but we could do this better. Why are we starting, like, why are we approaching our coaches about their development when in in January and saying, oh my God, how are we gonna fix this? Let's be proactive. I mean, we just had Haley win on, right? About process development. Like, what is your process to get better? You can't just say, I want to win an Olympic gold medal. I want to know how am I getting there? What are my little pieces to get there? Well, our coaches don't like you know, my frustration is when I walk into a room of elite coaches, paid coaches. I'm not talking about the dad or mom that's getting off the train and running in to the, to the to the locker room. I'm talking about these yahoos that say, I get paid, I'm a pro coach, and there's crickets in the room. Like it's I I don't know, I hate to say it, but like it's embarrassing. Like I I I I am offended to call myself a coach when I see the coaches that I work with that say they're coaches. I'm like, you call like you're not a coach. You're you're you're maybe you're a bill collector, and maybe you're a uh a travel coordinator, and maybe you're a you know, you can you you're you're a great, you can see skill and play it, but can you can you develop skill and and and mold it and and and take it to a level where you can go with 80,000 warriors and beat 600,000 warriors? Like, how do you do that? And you do that by developing all of the kids, not at the same time and not in the same way, but as a that's why it is so like I and I'm I'm sure teachers think the same way. Uh I don't know, I think I think I think car mechanics think the same way. Like, don't call yourself a car mechanic. You don't know what the hell you don't know a uh, you know, so so like I'm like, oh, it's a lug wrench. Who the hell knows? But I do know I do know what a left-wing lock is, and I do know what you know a breakout is, and I do know what you know uh the strong side and weak side is.

SPEAKER_01 42:40

And you're constantly teaching yourself more, Mike. That's the other part of the thing.

SPEAKER_00 42:43

But again, this is what's so offensive. Like when you look at the European model and you look at the best American and Canadian models, it's the coaches that are you you see them at every coaches site conference, you see them at any every NHL CA conference, you see them all the time on the free webinars that that go out there. And you see, and like me, I'm a guest, I'm going, well, I'm looking at the guest list. I'm like, that guy coaches in the OHL, that guy coaches NCAA, that these aren't this, isn't like the the the the the nine you coach that's winning you know 78 games a year and never ever educates himself just because he picked three good players and a goalie. So I think what happens is going back to the original premise of team, skill, region, it all starts with how are we how what who are we putting in place to work with our kids from boards down, right? That who's the head of the snake, and then what is that person doing to develop everyone? Because we all know whether you made brick at 10 and then you went on to play at Boston College, there's a million other kids in between there that we need to be able to work with. And I think what everybody wants to do is chase the best 10-year-old. And my my premise on this all the time has been since the day I started coaching. If you don't make the same team as the best 10-year-old you just competed against, but you continue to use the same development model to catch them, you will never catch them.

SPEAKER_03 44:07

Of course.

SPEAKER_00 44:16

You have to change your model, and that's what Europe did, right? That's what these other programs did. They changed their model. They said, let's put all the kids on the ice, let's flood the stations, let's give them touch putt, you know, puck touches. We can't continue to keep identifying the best eight-year-olds and hoping that when they're 18 years old, they can compete on the world stage. Women's hockey is seeing it right now. Women's hockey is getting closer and closer and closer because somebody's saying, more girls, more girls, more girls. If we get more girls at the bottom of the pyramid, we're gonna compete later on. But that it's a hard process, right? I mean, it's hard to look down the road and say, what's the pro you know, what's the program I'm gonna develop that what's gonna look like in 11 years from now? And that is that is really hard for a parent, a coach, an administrator. It's really, really difficult.

SPEAKER_02 45:06

Absolutely. And and you know, one of the one a great quote that I had heard that I the same thing I I posted about it uh a couple of days ago is the uh the the comparison of children being like popcorn. Uh and I just thought it was brilliant, you know. They're it popcorn is in the same pot, it's in the same heat, it's in the same oil, but the kernels pop at different times. That's awesome, right? So or they don't pop at all. Yeah, yeah. Like actually, if we were if we were talking about uh repairing cars, this would have been a lot shorter uh podcast. And if we were talking about cooking, it'd be a lot shorter if you're if you're having me on too. But I I just loved the idea because it, you know, it's so true. And we we don't talk about it um, you know, again, not to not to soapbox this uh yeah any longer, but we don't talk about this in any other facet of life but youth sports, right? You know, uh nobody is looking for the most elite 11-year-old at math, right? You know, nobody's looking at the kid that you know is is a you know a community leader in the sense that they're you know they volunteer or they work like we're not in search for that. We're looking for you know, the second Connor McDavid came out, now we're talking about Connor Bedard. Right, second Bedard came out, now we're talking about Gavin McKenna. You know, we're we're all we're just so excited about the the next big one as opposed to the next hundred. Yeah, and and ultimately, like you said, Mike, if we have if we find a way to include the hundred, who knows if it's the kid on the list at 87th that in 10 at 10 is a terrible skater, but works his bag off, and then at U18, all of a sudden he might be the best kid in the region.

SPEAKER_01 46:46

So let's this is first off, I love where this conversation's going, and now it's it's gonna come back to this world junior team a bit too, and and then you sports, right? So here's a question for you guys, and Matt, you're actually the expert on this, right? Um, our producer Caitlin brought up a great point. Like, the commercialization of sports in North America is actually not limited to hockey. We're seeing this in Little League, we're seeing this in other sports as well.

SPEAKER_00 47:09

So the biggest playing, everything, yeah, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 47:12

So, so like I'm not gonna say it's a cultural problem, but it's part of our culture. So, Matt, my first part of this question is do the European nations, do the Scandinavian nations view sports from a uh that that kind of commercialism way, or are they really just like, hey, we're here to do it's this is my job. I'm developing hockey players. You know what I'm you know what I'm asking with that?

SPEAKER_02 47:34

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And and I think the answer is both. Like, I think we're we're fooling ourselves. Uh, and and one thing that I'm always cautious of uh when I do podcasts and talk like this is you know, I come on and and talk glowingly about how the European model is in comparison. I mean, there's plenty of programs and and countries that are doing it wrong, you know, that are doing it for the money, that are doing it to profitize off of families and and you know are directing kids in in the wrong way and all of that. There's there's that everywhere in every sport. But I I think it it it all connects to how dependent we are on social media, and you know, the uh ever we're getting everything instantly all the time, and we just want more of it. It translates into so many different things, you know, like into you know, like you like you sports is the obvious comparison. I was actually talking to somebody a couple of days ago that's with USA baseball, and he says, you know what's interesting from a major league baseball standpoint. We all love analytics, and I'm a big baseball fan, and I love seeing numbers of this and that and all these other formulas and everything. I I think it's great. Yeah, we're seeing that at U11 now. People are figuring out how to calculate that and say, I don't know, this kid's you know, this kid's whiff rate or this kid's launch angle or nothing. It's terrifying.

SPEAKER_00 48:52

Right, but I think that I think that's way less than the bat themselves. Like I think that pushdown, right? I mean, it's I just just from a hockey perspective, comes from all of a sudden when NCAA coaches are recruiting 14-year-olds, now that 10-year-old doesn't look too far off. So all of a sudden you say, well, that 10-year-old is is really in the mix now for that 14-year-old to get picked at. And I think it all like it all just it all compresses, you know, what we're doing at at the sport level because of the commercialization and the money and everything else. But I think what people fail to see is that that that you know, and again, I'm not, it's just you are as a parent, right? You you have the rose-colored glasses, you say, Well, my kid's the same as that kid that got drafted. I'm like, really, like I said, but but but again, but but somebody will throw a uh uh you know a shingle out and say, no, no, we are we are the same as that kid. We are the same level. And people will flock to it, and then they'll flock to that, and then they'll flock to this. I think it really comes down to you know, it keeps reverting back to you can't, and just we talk about this like on this show. Like the people that are listening to the show are probably not the people that we need to listen to the show mostly. Right. It's it's always it's always the people that say, Well, that guy's a jackass. Like, I see him in the rink because I go to every rink in the east coast, he's like, Oh, it's that guy, the guy who loves you know, development and likes all the kids having his kids. You know, he wants he wants all the kids to be equally treated and all that. Yeah, everybody gets a ribbon and all that. That's not who I am. I'm as cutthroat as anyone else. Like, I want to win.

SPEAKER_02 50:19

That gets lots and all of it for sure.

SPEAKER_00 50:21

But I want to win by saying I did that, like I created that, like I created that player. Um, and I helped that player find their their you know their path. Whereas where where I think when we go back to seeing the European countries, the Lee's uh question, you know, it it they they do. There's no doubt on the whole, they have a like they what do they call it? It's um it's a sporting uh uh in philosophy. Not like it's about being being good, being a good person and being good at everything, yeah. And not having fun because they compete. I mean clearly the winner will junior championships. They compete in soccer, they compete in the other things, but they just do it in a different way and they don't do it as early. That's no, you're right, Mike.

SPEAKER_02 51:06

And that's kind of you know, there's there's uh I've talked about it in a few different uh features that we've we've done in hockey factories. You know, again, we talk about the runway. I I can't tell you how many times I've heard from some of these programs, you know, Frolanda in Sweden or Jokerit in Finland or uh Jung Aldermanheim in Germany, that you know, end of the day, what they're hoping the kids get out of this is, you know, because they're small communities, those kids likely aren't moving anywhere else or or gonna be, you know, it's not like a kid that's in Michigan that's gonna go to school in Florida and then get, you know, they're moving all over the state. You know, they're hoping the lessons that they're able to teach through sport are going to help make that kid a better doctor and a better lawyer and a better community member down the road because they're probably gonna be a doctor in the community that they're in, right? Right. So what they're looking at is you know, they're gonna have a great experience. If they end up going outside of hockey, then you know maybe they'll be so happy with their experience, they'll buy season tickets. Right and their kids, maybe they'll put them in that hockey program because they had a great program. Maybe they'll be willing to come back and coach, maybe they'll sponsor a team. You know, it's it's very community growth-minded as opposed to, you know, again, we're we all celebrate when there's a kid from our area or region that that comes up um and and plays at the top level or or something like that. But and and this isn't uh a brash judgment of anything else, but there's probably a ton of players that come from a certain area that have never given back to that area, don't go home to that area, don't have family. There, there's no connection there anymore. But we we kind of lose that. But these small communities, you know, the other article that I did this year that talks about that community model. So passionately is Hermantown and in the state of Minnesota being community-based. I mean, you know, you talked to Patrick Andrews at Hermantown, Mike Snee, who's with the wild, that was a big part of community hockey and stuff like that. To me, that's that's what that's what works, that's what fits. You've got 140 teams in the state instead of eight really good ones in Minnesota in Michigan. And if you're not playing for little Caesars, you're not that good. But you're developing so many players just within their own communities, and and it, you know, the results and the numbers and stuff that that Mike Snee's been willing to share with me in comparison to stuff is it's fascinating. It it works, it still works.

SPEAKER_01 53:28

Yeah, look, I I should say this too. We're you know, we're being Mike and I pretty critical of North American hockey development in this episode. It's not like North American hockey development sucks.

SPEAKER_03 53:41

No, right?

SPEAKER_01 53:41

I mean, we're we're developing some of the top players in the world all the time, right? So something is correct. All right. Uh, I think what we're discussing here, to your point, Matt, is that there is a lot of different ways to do this, and we can do even better than we're doing now. Like to me, it's all about how can we improve this? Now, I said a few minutes ago about the commercialization of sport. Look, North America is a capitalist environment. Like we'll we'll we'll commercialize anything we can across the board. It doesn't matter what it is. Like that's that's part of our culture. Whether you agree with that or not, in geopolitics, I'm not getting into that right now. I'm just talking realities. Um, and in in Europe and Scandinavia, it's a bit a bit of a different philosophy on things. And what I'm saying is that I do believe there's a hybrid where all of those things can work together and continue to evolve. Um, you know, another point I wanted to bring up going back to the World Junior Championships and the team building aspect of it. Mike brought this up earlier. Like, you know what no one's talking about? The amount of media scrutiny from the Canadian uh uh sports channels on Team Canada. I'm here, I'm hearing about handshake lines and guys talking how to turn, and you can't talk about the NHL athletes like this. I mean, they were on top of these kids with you know expert level you know questions for non-media trained really children. I know they're I know they're teenagers in their early 20s, and then they're like, why are you so distracted? Well, you just told one kid that his NHL team is pissed off at him before the gold medal, like uh before the the the the uh bronze medal. Like, what are you doing, guys? Like, like so the amount I'm bringing this up because of this. That's an incredible amount of stress. The attitude is well, they should be able to deal with it. And it's like, guys, I think we're missing the point here a bit. All right, how are they supposed to bond as a team when you're doing everything you can to rip them apart from that? Now, where I'm going with that is this, because we're talking about the team building aspect. Matt, I told you off the air the amount of team building work I get with organizations is going up every single season because youth organizations, high-level organizations, it's across the board, are understanding, oh wow, there's a missing piece when it comes to the team cohesiveness. To me, now I love that as it's my job. All right, I'm not, of course, it's great for me, but it makes me wonder too of like, well, where where are we missing this along the way so much now that they're bringing in a quote unquote team building expert to add this in? I'm gonna say it again. I'm very humbled with this work. I love this work, it's very effective work, but should we be alarmed that that work is on the rise? Like, are we missing that in North American hockey? And then, Matt, are they are they not missing that overseas?

SPEAKER_02 56:30

You know, uh to your point earlier, too, like when we talk about different development models and and right and wrong, and and for sure, like this isn't just uh to crucify the way that we do things in in Canada or the US, but I think what I'm hoping for after seeing trends like this or making comparisons like that, uh, that post is some growth. Like maybe maybe there's something that we can look at that we haven't done in 10 to 15 years that other people are doing or other countries are doing or programs within your region that the you know the that's what they say, right? A good coach is just a good thief. You know, we can steal some of this stuff, like we can take what is it? Is it even stealing? It's not like they're hiding anything.

SPEAKER_00 57:14

Matt, let me ask you something. If if if you look at the check, if you look at the Chesse team, right, and you said and you and you went back and you looked at their roster, what would you say the percentage of those kids that play together for all year are? Like the bulk of those players all branched out all over Canada and Europe and playing, or are they playing in a like if you took the if you took the Canadians team and you said I'm gonna put you in a training camp together for one year, and you can't go to your back to your hometown team, you're only gonna play together. Don't you think that team wipes the the program off the face of the earth?

SPEAKER_02 57:45

Absolutely, yeah. They they'd be dominant. And and you know, that was another uh common co uh comment that I saw on on the post was you know, well, how many kids from Chechi are playing in the CHL, right? Uh, sure, there's there's plenty of them, but I don't know that we're gonna give the CHL credit for their development when they're coming at 1617, right? So, yeah, like maybe when we're talking about them playing together, maybe it's not 15 years, maybe it's eight, you know, maybe it's maybe it's five, maybe whatever it is. Where we see in in North America the vast majority of it, and you guys would see that much much more than I would. Like maybe it's one or two, you know. We we just got open borders. We just got open borders in Ontario. So the program that you're with right now is probably the worst program in Ontario because there's so many other programs and they have to be better, right? It's it that's like part of the Matt.

SPEAKER_01 58:40

There's some there's historical data to support you. I'm I'm pointing at the 1980 team USA jersey behind me. They went through a six-month training camp essentially leading up to the Olympics. I think most of you know how that one ended. All right, USA won the gold medal in that, but uh at the time, and you can read I'm well read on this one. I love that team, that was unheard of, unheard of six months, like a month, I think was average at the time, and that was a lot then. Yeah, so so I mean, look, the result was that team bonded to the point they beat the greatest hockey team in the world. I could gush about that team, but that's the that team inspired me to do what I do. It's well documented. They went extra long here. Adverse Mike, I'll throw it to you in a minute. Here's a a situation I'm watching uh women's Olympic hockey. This is the first year ever where Team USA, Team Canada are not together leading up to the Olympics, they're doing the rivalry series, but they're all playing PWHL hockey, right? There, it's the first time this has ever happened. I'm interested to see how that plays out. Go USA. Anyway, I'm interested to see how this plays out. But like yeah, they they don't have the the year-long team USA development model right now.

SPEAKER_02 59:51

And even what would it look like if we were to say make our world junior selections three months before December? Like, what if we're doing it the end of August, September? You know, yes, we're gonna have to take these kids from their CHL teams and and all that. And I know that it it's just not gonna happen. There's too many people that get hit by it or or whatever it looks like. But you can imagine you get selected for a world junior team in September that plays at the end of December, and you know, Hockey Canada's offices are in Calgary, everybody goes to Calgary. You that's your team for three months, and then we play that tournament. Mike, to your point, I think Canada, the US would would absolutely dominate. Yeah, they didn't from a skill perspective, right? That's just because of how many high-end players that that we can we can develop, and and that's what our strength is. You know, European countries are looking at us thinking, man, like we're we're never gonna be able to develop an Austin Matthews or uh you know Connor McDavid or or somebody like that. It's you know it's it's just not the way that we develop players, but we develop incredible teams. And there's like we've we've talked about throughout the episode here, there is a there is somewhere in the middle, there's that sweet spot somewhere in there. That I think that's the million dollar question.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:04

That that is where I beg teams to take team building seriously within the organization. I tell organizations all the time, do not just do it with one team, do every age group together, right? So these kids get to know each other because there's a hundred percent chance they're gonna be moving around in terms of what team they make each year. All right. The other thing, too, I'm gonna say this too, is um, and you mentioned it, right? Uh, about the amount of time these guys are together or girls are together to get them to understand each other. Here's another interesting scenario, right? Let's just talk about the Olympics with men's hockey, right? 98 Olympics, first time pros are in the Olympics. Canada and USA did not win that Olympics. It was the then Czech Republic. Okay. And you know, when you're coming into this Olympics, everybody's very let's talk like this team USA real quick. Let's talk a little hockey here, right? People are very interested in the team that was picked because there are some extremely notable names left off the roster right now. But when you look at the roster, it's essentially our Four Nations face-off roster. And I think that I'm not saying this is right or wrong, I'm not saying this is gonna work or not, but I my belief is Bill Garrin, the GM, that the mindset is these guys know each other and they've got something to play for, they have a why. They they they they've played together already, they have some familiarity with each other, and I think that gives us an edge. I guarantee that is the thought process that he has. We left the leading USA scorer off the team, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:28

Okay, and that was his quote, right? If you were just gonna take the best scores or the biggest uh point guys, then you don't need a general manager, right? Like that he's trying to he's trying to build a team in a very short period of time with guys that you know some of them know of each other, have played together, all of that stuff. Like, you know, but but from a promotion standpoint, you know, like you you say with when the media gets involved, like it's the biggest collection of talent. It's it's right, you know, that's how it's branded when ultimately we're you know, uh Sam Bennett's not on the on Team Canada. We know what Sam Bennett has done. Yeah, right or right or wrong, if we're putting the best collection of talent together, I mean he was a given to make that team.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:08

You gotta make the best team. And like, look, I'm not to keep quoting miracle, all right? But common men go nowhere, right? I'm not looking for the right players, Craig. I'm looking for the I'm not looking for the best players, Craig. I'm looking for the right ones.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:18

Like now I gotta watch the movie again.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:20

Like, my point to people is this is not just Disney, like that stuff matters, all right, and you've gotta be able to develop it. And I think that just rounding this out again, that development starts at eight years old, six years old. And I think there's a process that needs to be involved with that. And if we're just plucking top talent, which I get, I understand it, I understand that the concept behind that. I think we are really doing the game a disservice, development a disservice. Like, like, and I'm not just talking about team building, I'm just talking about human development. Right? We're gonna lose the best athletes to other sports, right? And I think that that by and large, Matt, you know, that's kind of the point. When when I read your article, it's it's like let's just acknowledge that as good as our countries are, and they are phenomenal, they are the top powers in hockey across the board. Something's missing. All right, and the other countries are figuring it out, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:24

And that I think that's you know, I I hope that's what what kind of comes across from from the the post too, and and where the you know this conversation kind of comes from. There's there's a middle to this somewhere, it's not individual talent and it's not all team talent. There's something in the middle. There's it's not just all development and all winning. There's there's somewhere in the middle, you know. We said it earlier, and and Mike, you you referenced it too. You know, when it comes, I think there's always a we're developing everybody, you know, we want everybody to thrive. We want to like I that doesn't displace the fact that we all want to win. Like we're all doing, you know, nobody is putting a team of people together in in business, in in sport, in whatever. It's and this is a great group of people. They are terrible at what they do, but what a great group. And let's let's go out and play, you know. When I my my stepdaughter is uh a big basketball player and and soccer player, when she's out in the driveway shooting, I'll grab a ball and I'll go out there and shoot with her, and she wants me to defend her and stuff. She's 11, by the way. And you know, she makes a shot on me. Um I'm I'm not happy. Yeah, and I might I might push a little bit harder the next time, and then she makes that shot. And now I'm really annoyed because I want to do well. Yeah, I you know, I want to have fun and I want to compete, and that's the beauty of sport, and there's so much within those two words that you take through your entire life. Well, so there's somewhere in that middle ground there that I hope you know Canada looks at at the idea of of growth or changing what development and and that looks like that you know, maybe we're stealing something from the European model, and maybe the Europeans are stealing something from us. Right. And it's end of the day, it's gonna make hockey better, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:06

Yeah, and I but I think you could destroy the European model tomorrow if you can introduce football, lacrosse, basketball, swimming. Like I think if you if you could introduce all those sports into another community, like we we are we are at at a at a you know we have all this enrichment, right? Of the fact that we have great like to Lee's point, I I don't think we're doing much wrong. I don't. I think we're just yeah, I think we're just it's just we're we're we're in we're in a uh a situation where like some of my like the best kid in Sweden is also not the best lacrosse player in Sweden, most likely. Here, our best hockey player could be our best baseball player, yeah, or our best lacrosse player. So it's like they're choosing different things based off of the fact that they're they're they're exposed to so much more uh and there's so much less competition in Europe for a kid's attention than us. And it and it but like that, and that's why it keeps coming back to make it fun, get them out there longer, keep them on the ice longer, keep it cheaper, you know, find ways to keep people in here as long as you as possible so that we hockey people win the battle of the baseball and lacrosse kid, not the lacrosse and the baseball coach. Again, it's great for the kid, but if we want to grow Our sport, we gotta find a way to get kids to stay in our sport.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:18

Yeah, you know, Mike, I think too, like, and you say this, I think it's just the pursuit of being better. Like, like I'm we're great, we're great at hockey. Our countries are great at hockey, but the pursuit is can we be even better? And I think that what is grinding everyone's gears is I fear maybe we're getting a little complacent with our development models as these work, and that maybe we're slowing down a little bit. Like maybe this is not like like when the when the American developed model came out 15 years ago, man, we did that work, right? And it's like, well, we haven't really changed it that much since then. Well, not only we're going the other way.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:57

If you really look at if you really look at deep down in statistics, and this is something you're gonna see over the next couple years, we are going away. More communities are going away from like the cross-ice model and the and the uh you know, the development model, they're and the station-based model. They're going to moving away from it because what's happening is more teams are propping up, going with this whole other like model that people think is the right model. And it's gonna with the pendulum's going to swing. We might still be able to play at the highest level still, because we we have the most people, but the the pendulum is swinging where all I think there's gonna be a lot more kids not playing anymore.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:34

The the numbers don't lie, whether it's numbers are corporate or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:38

It the fact is less kids are playing now than there were, yeah. And and we're we but we have more teams. So it's true, and it costs twice as much.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:49

That's that's just it. They're coming from everywhere. Like at end of the day, and I I think we'd all agree, you know, you uh I my little guy plays hockey. My my daughter's not a big sports person, she's more into the theater and and singing and and that type of thing. But she plays soccer and baseball in the summer. You know, my my stepdaughter plays basketball and soccer. You know, she she well, she plays everything. She's she'll come home today from school and have signed up for something else. It's great. We just want kids involved in things, you know. I I don't want kids sitting at home staring at a screen, not being able to socialize, not being able to learn, you know, more about their bodies, about their athleticism, about you know what the that enjoyment feels like. And so, number one, the concern is the numbers in in hockey are dropping, and we know where that comes from. We know its cost, we know all of those things. So, what are we doing to not only counter that, but like you said, grow the game? Because, you know, we're we're gonna lose kids in hockey. I mean, it's uh religion in in Canada, in in Europe and some of the countries that I've looked at, you know, Germany is uh is the example that I've used most often in in that case. I mean, hockey might be fifth on the list, so they've got to get kids interested in it young so that they stay with it and and grow within the game. Where here we just assume if you're a Canadian boy or girl, at some point you're gonna play hockey because that's just what Canadian had a chance, and it's not the case anymore. You know, it's it's great that they have options for a different sport, but even losing the sport aspect is what I'm starting to get worried about with kids in general that are just gonna be disinterested in doing anything but sitting in front of their PlayStation, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:33

Yeah, that's actually a terrifying thought. Um, guys, I'm looking at the time and believing our audience has other things they gotta do. Uh, for those of you for those of you listening at home, what else we're gonna do? You guys uh we could go on for hours. I know we could go on for hours on this on this topic. Um, but look, here's what here's what I'm gonna say. You don't want to call me. They gotta go to the mechanics podcast. You gotta the fix my car podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:00

You want to set a clock in the ring, call me, but don't call me the car.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:03

I I do want to say this kind of in closing. You know, we we we we talk, all of us talk about you know stealing things from other countries and things like this. And uh here's the here's the truth, right? This is not a world war, right? This is sports, right? And we're all part of the global community. And I alluded to this earlier. I don't think anyone's really holding their development tactics close to the chest. People will share this stuff, it's out there. Matt, you have been the absolute biggest steward of sharing that information in the world, to my in my opinion. All right. Um, you know, in a time period where we can do that, you're doing it. So the parting message here, whether you're Love Team Canada, US, it doesn't matter, is if you really want to learn, there's no excuse not to learn. The information is out there, and I think that that is one of the biggest missing pieces. And I want to say this too. If you are a volunteer coach, I mean it when I say God bless you. All right. It's it's it you are volunteering to do something, you know, you're taking the time to do it. What I would say to you is this if it's just a volunteer position, I get it. I'm not I'm not gonna berate you for that because you're donating time. But if you really want to be great at coaching, you have to become a teacher. And if you want to be a great teacher, you've got to be a great learner. And we have never had the access to information that we have today, it has never been easier to learn. Right, right. So I'm just that's my parting message to the coaches out there and the parents, right? If this interests you, if you've hit the hour 10-minute mark with us, you're clearly interested in this stuff, right? Go go deep go chat beat GPT resources, just find a way to learn. Obviously, I'm not just saying this, but read Matt's stuff, it is phenomenal stuff, and I can tease it too. Go to mattdumichelle.com, which has just launched. He's allowing us to be the first people to launch that. I appreciate that, Matt. That's great. Um, to check this stuff out. It's fascinating stuff, but to anybody coaching and volunteering their time, I sincerely mean this. Thank you. No matter what your level of involvement is, um, we need you. We need you. If we don't have you, we can't make this happen anyway.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:11

Yeah. Look uh outside of parents, especially when we talk about youth hockey, there's nobody that's gonna have more influence on a child at that age than their coach. Right. Uh it's just the way it is. And you know, to say that you're a coach and that you're developing players and not trying to find ways to developing your develop yourself is completely unfair. Right. You can't expect kids to get better over the course of the year if you are as well not trying to get better over the year. I mean, how many coaches do you guys know that have coached for 20 years or 30 years or whatever it is, and they're doing the same drills, and there's no evolution, and there's there's you know no new new information or no new ideas that they're they're even trying to. No creativity. You don't you don't have to watch a couple of videos, uh, you know, go to the coach's site, watch a couple videos, pull a few up on YouTube, whatever that looks like, you know, and and just see. It doesn't have to be for you, but it's another angle of something. You know, instead of putting the blinders on and saying I've coached for 20 years, I know what I'm talking about. Turning that around and saying I've coached for 20 years, I can't wait to find out what I'm gonna learn in the next 20 years. I get that is such a different sentence.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:24

So Matt, I say this all the time. Uh great uh good coaches know everything, and great coaches know nothing. Yeah, I said that's my quote because my my passion to learn about not just coaching but the history of the sport. I I nerd out and send Matt pictures of books I'm reading. All right, you know, it's like it's like like again, you you don't have to share that at home. Don't get me wrong, that that's just me. But I'm saying that like there's got to be a common thread there if you want to learn. So, Mike, do you have anything else? I we have to close this out. I'm looking at a time right now. Mike, any final thoughts from you?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:56

If you want, if you want to win world juniors, go educate yourself and find a way to find find out what everybody else is doing, and then take whatever you can do with your organization and implement it. There's like you said, both of you, there's so many resources out there. Um, and don't don't at me if you're a lazy coach. I don't want to hear from you.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:16

Find it everywhere. And and Lee, like you mentioned, and and thanks for mentioning it. I I've just put my my website out there, um, mattdomichelle.com. Um, you know, I man, I love this stuff. And and I hope it comes across when when we have these conversations and in the articles and things like that. You know, I I want to be part of a solution to whatever organization, whatever age group, whatever level coach, experience, whatever it is. There are there's ways to do this better, and that's not saying you're not doing it well. There's just always ways to improve other ideas to share things like that. So if there's any way that you know I can help you as a coach, I can help you as a family, as an organization, you know, I'm I'm excited to do it and excited to launch the website and kind of take that jump into this and and kind of go uh head on. So thanks again for for having me. Always great to see you guys.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:07

No, it's great to have you, man. And I'll say to the audience listening, Matt, we we use the word hockey ambassador a lot. To me and to Mike, you are the most true hockey ambassador uh when it comes to this game in terms of what you talk about. I I don't think there's anybody better. So thank you for coming on here today. Uh and you gave me the last word, so I'll finish by saying go go USA. Uh no, I was just kidding here. Uh uh, it's been a great episode, my friends. Uh, if you've enjoyed this, make sure you uh continue listening. Also, this has been a great conversation. I always talk about this on the show. These are conversations. Conversations help for growth. But I definitely want to give you a say at home. If you enjoyed this, if you have a question, leave a comment, you agree, you don't agree, email us. We'll get that over to Matt as well, right? Team at our kidsplayhockey.com, or you can use the link accompanying the show in the description. Send us your name where you're from. Any comments you have on this. Uh, if someone's doing this right, someone's doing it wrong in your community, let us know. We want to discuss those things uh on the show without, you know, while while protecting the names of the innocent, we always say, right? But uh for Matt Dumachel, MattDumichel.com, check that out. Mike Vinelli, I'm Leah Elias. We'll see you on the next episode of Our Kids Play Hockey. Take care, everybody. We hope you enjoyed this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or our website, ourkidsplayhockey.com. Also, make sure to check out our children's book, When Hockey Stops, at When Hockey Stops.com. It's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much for listening to this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey, and we'll see you on the next episode.