Why Healthy Conflict Makes Teams Stronger With Sports Conflict Lab Founder/CEO Bill Taylor

SPEAKER_03 1:20

This episode is powered by NHL Sense Arena. Hello, hockey friends and families around the world, and welcome back to another edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. I'm Leah Elias joined by Mike Vinelli and Christy Cash and Overns. You know, if you spend any amount of time on youth hockey, which I'm guessing you have if you're listening to the show, you've experienced conflict. Maybe it was about playing time. It could have been a coach, a teammate, a parent, an official, or maybe it's simply an uncomfortable conversation that nobody wanted to have. The truth is, conflict isn't something we can avoid. It is part of sports, it is part of life. The question isn't whether it will happen. The question is, what do we do when it does happen? Today's guest is an expert in the space of conflict in sports and believes that learning how to handle conflict may be one of the most important skills as an athlete, a coach, or a parent, and a person for that matter. And not just in hockey, but in life. He's the founder of Sports Conflict Lab, a championship collegiate coach, and the author of Managing Sports Conflict, a book I'm holding up on the screen right now. And we are lucky enough to have him here today. Ladies and gentlemen, please join me in welcoming Bill Taylor to Our Kids Play Hockey. Bill, welcome to the show. Thank you. Terrific intro. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Yeah, I'm all pumped up now.

SPEAKER_05 2:44

I nailed it. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

And your your book is such an awakening because I think, like most of us, I always try to avoid conflict. And I always think conflict is a bad thing. First, let's explain why you need to develop a healthy relationship with conflict and why it can be essential for growth, especially with hockey teams.

SPEAKER_05 3:06

Yeah. I mean, you're not alone. I I I mean, I'm just making a number up, but I would guess that probably 70% of people probably their their approach to conflict is to avoid it because it is uncomfortable. And probably the biggest reason people avoid it is they don't know how to deal with it. They don't have a skill set and they don't have experience. And when you don't have a skill set experience and you don't know what you're gonna do, then you're you know, your your odds of not having it go well are uh greatly increased. But yeah, conflict is actually number one, as Lee said, it's you can't get away from it. It's going to happen in every single relationship there is, it's just a matter of how you deal with it. And it is, most people don't think of it as a positive, but it's actually an essential aspect of growth, of building a relationship. Um, and there's a bunch of reasons. It opens up communication. Communication is the core of relationship building. So it forces people, if they address conflict correctly, to work together and talk together. It um you get to clarify expectations, and one of the biggest forms uh reasons for conflict is unmet expectations, or you know, where people aren't getting what they think they're supposed to get out of the relationship. So it opens up and allows you to set expectations and clarify those. It uh it increases accountability through that. Um so now we've clarified our expectations, now we can hold each other accountable to it. Um, it increases mental well-being because you're not carrying. I mean, you can avoid conflict, but the conflict's still there. The feelings are still there, they're still affecting you, in fact, usually growing as time goes on in size and in intensity. So that's not fun to carry around. It doesn't allow you in sport, for example, to focus on the task at hand, to have fun with your teammates and your coaches and stuff. So it really increases well-being by being able to address these things and get them dealt with, um, increases trust dramatically, which is essential to relationship building. And there's I I could keep going on, but enjoyment, success, all of it is actually hinges or is conflict dealt with properly is critical to this. Conflict dealt with improperly can blow it all up. But conflict is really important. And I I, you know, even in my book, I talk about where I had a team that wasn't uh wasn't dealing with conflict, didn't want to have any conflict, and they were stunted. And we were all there was a lot of frustration, a lot of conflict that came even with them not being in conflict.

SPEAKER_02 5:39

Let's stay on that subject quickly because you brought it up. And at that point, you brought in a sports psychologist because you didn't know what was going on with this team, right? It was hard to pinpoint.

SPEAKER_05 5:50

Yeah, I hadn't uh I hadn't gone through the master's program in conflict management yet. So I'm just noticing my team is is kind of stuck. They're not performing, they're not holding each other accountable. Um I'm watching them kind of celebrate poor performance because they wanted to make each other feel good. So somebody stops in the middle of practice and is crying because they don't want to keep going to the work, oh, you're all right, you're right. And I'm not saying they should get on a mean, but there should be an encouragement, hey, we need you, that kind of thing. And so I'm watching these things happen, and I'm I've had a lot of success as a coach, but I'm running, I've run out of ideas. And so, yeah, I brought in a sports psychologist, and he's kind of worked with the team apart from me for about two weeks. And then he came and had a meeting with me, and he said, you know, I've never seen a team more opposed to having any conflict ever. And that's essential. You have to have conflict to get through a lot of the things I said, and so yeah, I don't think we resolved it per, you know, like we didn't get them to have more conflict and resolve it positively that season because I didn't have the skill set yet.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

But didn't that come as a shock to you when it came to you that said, hey, yeah, doesn't have enough conflict.

SPEAKER_03 7:04

You're like, we need more conflict. Hey, Chris, quit hogging the show. This is an uncomfortable conversation. I'm totally kidding. I'm just saying, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:14

No, I mean, uh, because I, before doing the master's program in in this subject and doing more research, I would have thought the same thing. You want to avoid all conflict. Why would you have conflict bad? You know, you can't be as good. So yeah, it was like it made sense as he was talking to me about it, but I hadn't, you know, now I have an even higher level understanding of why it's so important. But yeah, I think that is. And I think that's the that's the what I've I've run into is everybody knows conflict is important or is an is an issue. But most people, I don't know why in our society conflict skills haven't been taught. It's you know, when I say when I started the master's program, the first class, I'm sitting there going, this stuff should be taught to elementary school kids because we all deal with conflict, and how you deal with conflict is going to determine your enjoyment, it's going to have a huge impact on the level of success you can have. It just seems so foundational to what humans experience. I was kind of shocked, but yeah, there's a big void, and not just in, I mean, certainly in sports. I found that as I went through a bigger conflict. There's not no resources in sports at that time. But really, in general, I don't think we do a good job of teaching conflict skills to people.

SPEAKER_03 8:29

Um, hey Bill, I'm gonna pause real quick. There's a little bit of a click in your mic. We don't have to start off. Um, it's one of two things you can do. Uh um on your menu here, there should be a microphone setting. I think what's happening is the mic is in the headphones. Oh, are you on a phone, laptop? What are you on right now? No, I'm on my yeah, laptop. Okay. I want to see if we can switch the mic to the actual. Do you guys hear that too? That little clicking sound?

SPEAKER_02 8:54

Yeah, I don't know if it's rubbing against his shirt.

SPEAKER_03 8:57

Yeah, I'm not sure what it is either. Again, it's very slight.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

Very slight.

SPEAKER_03 9:00

Bill, yeah, it's not like the end of the world. Uh right. But I would say if we can switch your input to the computer, that might change things a little bit. So, like, take off the headphones. Uh, we we could well why don't we try that first? Uh, I don't want you to be uncomfortable at the same time. I just want to get make sure you sound good.

SPEAKER_05 9:14

Okay, so take off the uh just to clarify, take take the mic microphone off.

SPEAKER_03 9:18

Yeah, yeah, try try try without let's see how it feels. And then, like I said, we'll can cut all this input. Can you hear anything now? Nothing. No, his his settings are off.

SPEAKER_02 9:30

Um it's not horrible.

SPEAKER_03 9:31

No, it's just just a little flitchy.

SPEAKER_02 9:34

Yeah, a little static.

SPEAKER_03 9:36

Can you hear us now? No, we can't hear you now. That's the that's what we're trying. Hold on. Let me see if we can figure this out. Oh hold on, you're muted. That might be white. Hold on. Um you're muted in Stream Lounge or StreamYard, excuse me. So yeah, it on the on the actual um broadcast side here on the window. You should there you go. All right, let's see that how that sounds.

SPEAKER_05 9:59

And actually now it I heard the sound too. It's a little there it is.

SPEAKER_03 10:03

That's that that works right there.

SPEAKER_02 10:05

Actually, it sounds really good. Yeah, I don't hear it anymore. Quality is better.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 10:11

Give us uh give us a mic check. Just just let's say hi, mic check.

SPEAKER_03 10:14

Hi, mic check.

SPEAKER_02 10:16

Hi, mic check.

SPEAKER_03 10:17

Do you still hear us in your ears and in your headphones? All right, this is perfect. I think it sounds better.

SPEAKER_05 10:22

I plugged it down. I unplugged it and it wouldn't no, I hear it again. I can hear what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_03 10:27

Well, we don't we don't hear it. That's what's weird.

SPEAKER_05 10:29

Okay, we don't hear it. Uh we're all good. Sounds good. Are you comfortable like that? Yeah, well, it's the theme. I I actually had to re-plug it in because when I pulled it out, it wouldn't train, it wouldn't move over to the actual computer. That's weird. So I'm back to work.

SPEAKER_03 10:45

So technology, right?

SPEAKER_02 10:47

Sounds clean. Sounds clean though. That's okay.

SPEAKER_03 10:50

Okay, Bill, I'll I'll come back in here. I'm just writing time codes down and we'll and I'll we'll continue. I'll pick up right from there. Okay, here we go. Okay. Let's write a time code down.

unknown 10:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 10:58

You know, Bill, one of the things you're bringing up that that I want to talk about is this avoidance of conflict or ability to maintain conflict is actually one of the most razor-thin things, I think, that separates champions from non-champions or really competitive teams to non-competitive teams. Because I can remember coaching teams um that the locker room was so nice and so calm, and they came in second place and everything. Whereas adversely, I've coached teams that were, I don't want to say at each other's throats, but they had no problem challenging each other. And that team tends to win. And I think the reason they tend to win is because that is a form of communication, they are pushing each other for forward. Now I wrote that down here, how razor thin that line is. And I think another part too is this, I want to make sure we bring this up. Yeah we talk about how most people avoid conflict, all right. And and I think everyone listening will agree, like most it's uncomfortable. You're gonna mostly uh avoid things. The other side of that, too, and you kind of tap into this a little bit, is you avoid thinking about conflict, you avoid thinking ahead of time what conflict may look like on your team because it's uncomfortable to think about. I think that's an important thing we have to discuss real quick, because a lot of the not conflict itself, conflict is inevitable, but a lot of the processes to get through conflict happened way before conflicts even begin. So, without giving your book away, obviously, I do want to talk about the importance of, like you said, you went to school for this. Why are we not teaching this early? Isn't it so important that before a season starts or anything starts, we have a plan of conflict will happen. Here's the process.

SPEAKER_05 12:33

Yeah, uh, and in the book I talk about the process, building a plan, building a contract, basically, making sure everybody's aware. So it's two things. It's number one, having that process that everybody understands how to follow. And one of them is the roadmap, that's how you use the or it's a rough guide to how you can use the tools in some level of sequence. It doesn't work exactly like that because every conflict is different. The other is the process, and I use the process is really important because um you can mess up the process if you jump from having if I have a conflict for you, and instead of talking to me, you go to my boss, but I don't know anything about it. We're gonna that betrays trust. You're you're making it really hard to uh resolve the conflict. So there's a process map that tells everybody here's first you meet with the person that you're having the conflict with and only the person you're having the conflict with. And then it gives a sequence so everybody understands. And what that's also doing, it's not only giving a guided process that allows conflict to be resolved in the most positive possible, you know, have the best chance at a positive outcome. It's also telling people, and this is I think this is critical, conflict is expected and it's okay. It's we don't have to avoid it, and we now know a process, but you're actually expected to deal with conflict, right? And we're breaking we're making it okay. And there's things, you know, in the book, uh power imbalance and leadership stuff, there's ways leaders can also make it a lot more comfortable for those they lead to deal with conflict because that's a tough one when there's a power imbalance, but yeah, yeah, I just think um you want to make sure in advance, before there's ever a conflict, that you everybody understands the process, everybody understands the expectation, and everybody knows that it's going to be safe. They can as long as they work with it within the process, right?

SPEAKER_03 14:24

It's gonna be great. Well, I'm gonna say this, and then Mike, I'm gonna throw it to you as a fellow coach, but I I can say this from my own coaching journey. Uh uh and and and I should say leadership journey because you know I manage people at my job too. When I got comfortable with the uncomfortable conversation, that was a game changer for me as a leader. Now, and again, you have to understand because because Bill, you made a great point here. There is a power imbalance a lot of times when you're having a conversation with a player or a coworker. You have to understand that you can't take advantage of the situation, but I am very comfortable having uncomfortable conversations because of what you just said, though. It's like I understand the outcome that I'm trying to get. I want there to be hopefully a win-win, although that's not always the case. You wrote about that too. All right. But I had to push over my own kind of uncomfortable nature of conflict to get there. But once I did, man, when you talk to players, when you talk to employees uh and approach it the right way, it is a game changer, not just for you and that person's relationship, but for the overall goal of the team. And Mike, I know you you have to experience this as well with all the teams that you've coached, just being able to have that conversation.

SPEAKER_04 15:33

Yeah, I mean, geez, I mean, I can't, I don't like I I used to relish the teams that I coached that I have a lot of conflict with my coaching staff. I mean, it was always a great sign for me, like when we could really, really get into it and fight and and have discussions about systems and and and what players we're gonna keep and what players we don't because you want. Um, I don't know, you know, I don't know if that's if that's an opinionated or if it's just you know, or if it's you know, embracing the conflict of, hey, I think this, you think that. If this is a healthy conversation we can both have, and guess what? I I'm with you because I feel um, you know, you're somebody I value, your opinion. So if you're just, I mean, uh the way I'm hearing it, and the way I think, you know, that that I would look at like the way you wrote the book and the way that that we're approaching this from a from a sports perspective, from like a hockey coach perspective, is that if you don't have conflict, you can't get growth. And um, and you might be successful without conflict, right?

SPEAKER_05 16:32

To a certain level, yes.

SPEAKER_04 16:33

Yeah, I mean, I mean again, again, if if you if you if all of a sudden all the cards are in the right place, then you know, then then maybe you know said, oh man, I didn't have any conflict this whole year, and we were very successful. And and but the thing is, you know, to to kind of break these little barriers and to break into these these these thresholds of success, um, most likely there's got to be a little pushback. So I guess my my question from the perspective of forget about me as a coach managing the players, because I have to manage now, you know, 18 different families. What do you think are what's the what's the conversation you think that's most avoided by the individual parent um on a team when it comes to this kind of subject? I mean, again, I'm managing you know 15 to 18 families and players and parents, but yeah, sometimes this really comes down to well, what's the what's the conversation happening with the parent and the player? Yeah, between the parent and the player, is that what you're speaking of specifically? Yeah, yeah, and what you know, what are conversations that parents sometimes avoid? Yeah, um, you know, that's uncomfortable, right? But they have to happen sometimes. I guess the example I would give is you know, the conflict might be, hey, I want my player to do X, and I need you to do X. And the player's like, well, I really don't want to do X. Like, I don't know, I I I have no interest in that. But you know, as a parent, their success depends on this.

unknown 17:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:55

Because really they can't find success without you know breaking through these little the conflict of maybe time management, the conflict of training, the conflict of you know, how much effort you need to put in in order to be successful. You're the parent, you probably know a little bit more. You're you're you're you have a history, and you're dealing with the 13-year-old has no history.

SPEAKER_05 18:19

Yeah, you know, and it's obviously different each parent, you know, different parents have different expectations and different uh views of themselves. Some parents are are passive in their approach to to their kids in sports, and they don't, they kind of like, oh, I'm just gonna let them do everything. That's not necessarily a great thing. There's there should be some interaction between parent and and an athlete and helping them through the process and in conflict. Then there's parents who are reactive, you know, who jump on their kid, the loud ones on the sideline that are screaming instructions over the coach, or um, or you know, the second they get in the car or on them, why'd you do this? Why'd you do that? Well, that's not effective either. And a lot of it, you know, you want an active parent who's talking to the coach as appropriately, who's talking to the kid, their children at the right time and asking questions more than accusations and things like that, and then helping them work through through that process. I think a lot of the parent conflict, both parent, kid, parent, coach, all those things, is it comes from parents who don't understand their role and who maybe have um misguided understanding of what the value they they've changed the value of sport from something that you the most amazing laboratory for growth and experience. I mean, it sports is unique in human experience, in my opinion, in terms of how amazing you can grow, how the things you can learn in a short amount of time in ways that are just impossible anywhere else. And they've turned it into my kid's gonna get a scholarship or my kid's gonna be a professional, or which happens very not as much as people think, and they've turned it into their identity. So working through those things, and that's where I think, you know, not only with a team, but I think when you have a sports, youth sports, high school sports, where you have parent parents around. I was a college coach, I didn't have I was my kids were from 40 different states and the you know and international. So I didn't have as many parents uh kind of influencing things for me, but youth sports, high school sports, middle school sports, you have a lot of that. And I think that clarification isn't just for your team, but I think there should be a specific parent aspect where you help them understand how to communicate with their kids, what type of parent you have, and uh what what their expectations need to be, and kind of clarify, you know, get those things on a on a path as well so that there's some harmony and they have a if they have an outlet to be able to talk to you, and if they have some expectations on how they take deal with their kids in conflict or in results or things like that, um they're going to be less likely to uh go out of out of line because they know where they are and they've gotten some education and they have an outlet, they have a way of talking. And I know that's hard. You said 18 families, for example. Um so now as a coach, you also probably have a job, you have a family, you're also coaching 18 families because it's not just the kids, it is the families. How do you find that time? You know, that's a tough one, but I always say, you know, dealing with conflict again, back to avoiding conflict. Uh, avoiding conflict means you're probably going to deal with it more and at a bigger level down the road. So having some sort of communication process with the parents where you can find out where they're at, help them maybe have realistic expectations and also understand what the what your expectations are, can really help everybody have a much better experience and and really decrease the amount of time you're gonna have to spend in conflict with them negatively.

SPEAKER_02 22:02

Right. And that's what it's all about is just having the best experience, right? That's what we're that's what the goal is. But there can be conflicts among teammates too. Um and if they're not addressed quickly, and I've seen this, investors blow up your whole team. So what advice would you give to young athletes on how to better communicate, how to better work through disagreements with teammates?

SPEAKER_05 22:26

Yeah, and again, back to the process that kind of helps with that education. But you know, um again, if you if you don't address conflict with the person you have conflict with quickly, um, then it's going to grow. And not only that, you're gonna if if I'm mad at Lee for whatever, uh whatever he did, I don't know. And and I don't address it with Lee, then next thing Lee does, I'm like, what a jerk. He's he said that he didn't mean everything in my mind is now going to be Lee's a jerk because he did this other thing, and I haven't resolved that, I haven't talked to him. Meanwhile, Lee may not even know he did anything. Like he didn't, he was trying to help me, doesn't know I took it the wrong way. I'm not addressing with him. So now, so now we're growing it. And then, and and kind of what you're talking about with team, this is and my numb one of my big no no's is three way conflict. Instead of going to Lee and dealing with the conflict I have with Lee, which is the only person that can help resolve this conflict, it's Lee. I go to Bob and I tell Bob what a jerk Lee is. You know what he did? And then Bob's like, now Bob's a part of the conflict. And we've just grown it. But Bob can't solve the conflict. So that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_04 23:40

Or Bob's avoiding the conflict by agreeing with the incorrect conflict. Like I think in hockey, right? It's the dad that says, Oh, don't you think that my son should be playing with this guy's son or your son? And now this person wants to avoid conflict, right? So they're like, Yeah, I guess so. I mean, yeah, I think you're right. So he might even not even agree with the person. Yeah, this is where all this stuff really starts to, like you said, if you don't address it and attack it and teach it and prepare people that it's going to happen. When that when that when that scenario happens, somebody needs to be educated on that side to say, yeah, you should probably bring that up with Coach Pinelli. I really have nothing to do with this.

SPEAKER_03 24:23

I think Bob's a jerk too, so I don't know why you're both playing about any of this stuff.

SPEAKER_02 24:27

But that's where it goes back to setting the tone at the very beginning of the season. Here's the process. And I think I think it would be helpful if coaches really just spelled it out for the kids. Just don't assume that they understand it, right?

SPEAKER_03 24:42

Here's a great don't understand it.

SPEAKER_02 24:44

Yeah, they don't.

SPEAKER_00 24:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:46

Well, and again, kids look, there's a bit this is a bigger conversation, but kids are kind of the result of the parenting, too. And I've been writing notes here. We have to remember too that you know, and uh Bill, you did such a great job of talking about one of your first pillars here of one tool is emotion, right? Like so many people are not aware of even their own emotions, right? Yeah you alluded to it earlier. Like there are parents, and and this is broad for everybody. There are parents who attach the outcome of the game to their self-worth, right? Now, I my recommendation is to never do that because you have absolutely no control over that, but you can see it when when their kid has a bad game or they leave very upset at a youth hockey game or even a pro hockey game. You have no control, you have no control over the outcome of this game, yet with there's an emotional attachment. Well, they're gonna they're going to, and again, this isn't me pointing a finger. It's like this is natural, like you will imprint that on your child a bit. We all do it in some form, good and bad. Okay, at the same time, and for the audience listening, you you all know a parent, like the parent I'm talking about. Here's the other side of that, okay. And this is the empathy kind of side. Well, they care, they care, they want to win, they want to do well. Like they're they're not a complete jerk because they care so much. All right. I would say that the way they care is being uh triggered the wrong way, right? But there's emotion there, okay. So you you have to kind of understand that. I also wrote this note down, Bill. I want to say this to everybody that's going to experience an uncomfortable conversation or conflict. It is always, almost always worse in your head than it actually is. Whatever that conversation is in your head, yeah, when you actually have it, it's never, it's just never anywhere close to the negativity and the the way you think it is. And like you said, when you have three people involved, you commiserate um and so forth. So wait, I wanted to say this real quick. Christy brought up a really interesting point about the young kids. All right. This is how I explain it to young kids, and I'll give a disclaimer here. You can totally use this with adults too, all right. But the way I explain conflict to kids is this kids typically do not want to have conflict because uh of the nature of like, I don't want someone not to like me, I don't want the team all these thoughts we have as children about being inadequate and acceptance seeking, so forth and so on. So, what I say to them is this I said, look, guys, when you're building land, when land is created, it doesn't just sprout up out of the ocean and there's an island of land, it's created through a very violent process of volcanoes and earthquakes and things, trees get destroyed, and like it's an incredibly violent, there's storms, there's lightning, there's temperature changes, and then eventually land is formed from this violent situation. All right, and I said, conflict is the same thing, all right? Like you're gonna have to go through this process to create solid ground, and that ground is where our team will live, but you've gotta be willing to go through this process, and then I said, too, and believe me, conflict in sports, conflict in general is not the same as building land in terms of violence, right? So that's the analogy I give. And they shouldn't be, yeah, yeah, that's fair too, right? That the stress flying, right?

SPEAKER_05 27:52

There's something you said earlier that I think is really important, and it's important in all of life, and it's certainly an absolute truth in sports. You said uh getting comfortable with the uncomfortable. And we we think of that in terms of, well, you got to push yourself harder and practice, or you know, all those different things, but this is the same kind of thing. The the way through or the way up is through, and if you avoid conflict, if you avoid different things, you're not getting comfortable with the uncomfortable, and you're losing a whole skill set that is essential to that enjoyment and to your success. And so I think that's a I think that's a pretty good uh, I guess, um, way to live is to think about things that way. I if I'm avoiding it just because it's uncomfortable, well, then I'm missing out on the opportunity to grow and have the best experience.

SPEAKER_03 28:41

Well, and Bill, I'll tell you this too. I talk a lot about my team building philosophies on this show, right? And the first pillar for me in team building is always trust, right? And trust does not exist, you cannot move forward. Right, you know, one of the things you realize as you explore trust is that is not just an outward thing, right? Everybody understands why I have to trust somebody else, but not often enough are we going, well, I have to trust myself too, right? That actually is harder in some ways. Now, the reason I'm bringing this up when it comes to conflict and being comfortable with uncomfortable conversations is that I do at this point in my life trust myself that if I'm going into a conversation, I have the best intentions. I'm not lying to myself about what I think is going on or the outcome. Now, here's the deal. Okay. Does that mean that every time I go into an uncomfortable conversation, I'm perfect and I'm right? No, I make mistakes too. All right, and my assumptions are not always perfect, but I don't have a problem having that conversation because I know that I'm trying to do the right thing. Right. Sometimes I say too much, sometimes I say too little. All right, but I'm I'm willing to take that leap with that person, right? Sometimes I say the wrong thing. I'm just not perfect. But but man, do we get further down the line by just addressing something than if we don't? But that's how I got comfortable with it, is I learned to trust myself in these situations.

SPEAKER_05 30:00

Well, and if you go into a conversation, even if you're wrong, if you're curious, right, if you're seeking information, if you're trying to do what's best and it's and you don't you aren't convinced that you're the one and only person who knows what's best, um, then you're even when you're wrong, that gives them a chance to correct you. Oh no, I I well, do you think this? Now we can get on the same page and now we can move forward the right way.

SPEAKER_03 30:26

So you reminded me of just I know people love stories. I I just recently had a situation on a high-level team where a player did something on the bench and I snapped at them. All right, I snapped at them pretty hard. All right. And um, I was gonna give it 24 hours and I give this player credit. They actually texted me, like, hey, can we talk? This is like well after the game. And and yeah, I of course I said, yeah, of course. So we sit down and she says to me, right, you yelled at me on the bench. The first thing she said, and you know what I did, guys? Talk about curious, not judgmental. You know, we all know that quote because it's Ed Lasso now, of course. Of course, was I I apologized. I said, you know what, you're right. I I did not control my emotions there, and I snapped. Can I tell you why I snapped? Can we have a conversation? I do apologize for that. That changed the entire conversation for her. Yeah, because I think she thought there was gonna be this big kind of back. I was like, no, I made a mistake, I shouldn't have yelled at you like that. But I I'm all right, yeah. Uh let me tell you why I yelled. Let's get to the real reason I did that. And I won't, I'll try my best not to do that again. We had a great conversation, and and that relationship is wonderful, yeah. Um, it's awesome. Yeah, but I had to be vulnerable to your point at the beginning. I made a mistake. I wasn't being judgy, I wasn't gonna go, listen here, you're a late teen player. I know I know what I'm talking about. Like, that's I don't have too much room for that. Uh, in that in that way that I said it. All right. I'm not saying I can't say, hey, I've got a lot of experience. Can I tell you what I'm seeing? I can do that. All right, but like you said, you gotta approach it with a sense of curiosity, not judgment. Judgment will always always make it worse if you don't have any control over that. I'm gonna stop talking.

SPEAKER_02 31:59

I joke that you have the show, but I hope it's um I think it's important to also discuss the difference between healthy conflict and unhealthy conflict. Yeah, we need to define that. And I'm dying to know what you think about the 24-hour rule. We all abide by it. Instead of immediately diving into that conflict, you give yourself 24 hours and see how you feel after the 24 hours of whether or not to address it with a coach. Is that a good practice?

SPEAKER_05 32:29

Yeah, I I mean I I don't describe a 24-hour rule, but I do uh we do talk very heavily about having some time. Um, even with parents, we have a kind of a rule, you don't talk, you certainly don't talk to them in the car, you don't talk to them at the game. You give it some time so that emotion can come down. I mean, that's the biggest reason is to to try to bring that emotion down. So you're not speaking out of emotion where you're gonna say things that you don't really mean or wouldn't ever say. You're gonna talk logically and problem solve. Um, I think 24 hours, it just in uh this is the first I've kind of heard that. Um, I think it depends on the situation. There's there are conflict situations where you need to deal with them a little quicker. Um, but you still want to make sure that that you've done everything possible to bring emotion down and to get some to some logical level of thinking for both parties. Um, if I would say whatever amount of time is necessary to get your emotion down and be in a logical state of mind is what would be uh appropriate. And if if 24 hour, if a 24-hour rule works best, and sometimes it's not that 24 hours is the magic number, it's that you have a system that you follow that results in the best outcomes most of the time. And so I think that that's I think 24 hours probably makes sense most of the time. Sometimes things need to be dealt with quicker. I mean, what if you have your next game, you know, 12 hours uh away?

SPEAKER_01 34:00

No, no, I'm like 24 hours, it doesn't matter what time of day I'm coming to talk to you. No, talk to me.

SPEAKER_03 34:06

I think the key here 21.

SPEAKER_05 34:07

We got three hours.

SPEAKER_03 34:09

Bill, the key that you're bringing up, and and and this is why we do have this this rule, right? And and and typically the rule is parents to coaches, do not talk to us for 24 hours after a game. But the the the the the the real reason I we we've act we've had um discussions about this rule, but you're tapping on something. The real reason for that rule is for you to cool your emotions off, right? And so we can cool our emotions off too, right? We might look stoic after a win or a loss, we're feeling something. There's a guarantee on that. Um, and and that rule is in place so everyone can take a minute and cool off, right? And I I I wrote this down, and you've said this, I think you said this in the book too. Uh and I tell my kids this, gang. All right, I can't think of one time in my life when I was emotionally compromised, and that can be angry, upset. It can also be excited. You got to remember there's a whole other side to the emotion, excited, elated. Can't think of one time where I've made an unbelievably good decision when I was emotionally compromised. I can tell you plenty of bad decisions I've made, right? And Bill, I want you to talk about that because I I think getting back to baseline, whatever that is for you, yeah, before you make any decision is essential. Typically takes 24 hours, parents. We're not giving up on that rule. Go ahead, but yeah. Yeah, no, sorry, I've compromised your whole rule. I think no, no, it's okay.

SPEAKER_05 35:30

Great rule.

SPEAKER_03 35:31

We're gonna have an uncomfortable conversation after the show about that, you and I. It's not just kidding. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_05 35:36

Um, you know, in the book, I talk about uh my class in conflict and communications. I think this was what really made it uh pretty clear to me. Um the class was taught by Dr. Jeff Thompson, who is a New York City police uh officer, detective, and hostage crisis negotiator. So hostage situations and suicide situations and stuff. And so he brought in stuff that the New York PD, you know, uses to deal with some of the worst conflicts. I mean, war, and we're talking about like where people's lives are on the line, like immediately, right now. And so when he asked us, you know, what do you think we do when we get to uh the scene of a hostage situation or something or suicide, somebody's on the ledge, and we're like, well, you try to deal with it right away. Their lives are on the line. And he's like, No, we don't. We take our number one goal is to bring emotion down, and we will take as much time, however long, like he literally, as long as it takes to work emotion down between for the person that's in the conflict, as long as it's safe, you know, relatively safe. Um, we'll we'll take whatever time and all we work on is emotion because no good decision happens in high emotion, and you can't get where you need to go until the emotions down. And I say in the book, you can master every other skill there is in conflict management. And if you can't control your emotion, and if you can't influence the emotion of others, you're not resolving any conflicts, period. You just you're just not.

SPEAKER_03 37:02

I I have to say this again for the audience: just an action item, something you can do with your kids. You can do this as adults too, guys. I always say anything we do with the kids, we can do with ourselves. Uh, you and your kids will be hijacked by emotion. I use the word hijacking because it completely takes over your psyche. You know, we always say you're seeing red, right? I have found, Bill, I'd love any tools you have on this too. The most valuable tool is to get your kid or yourself to just acknowledge what you're feeling. So when my kid's losing it, I'll say, Can you please tell me what you're feeling? Yeah, and to your point, God bless the NYPD too, right? It doesn't always my my it's not just oh, I'm angry. It's like it doesn't stop. Like they're there's screaming, they're angry. I just kind of calmly, hey, tell me what you're feeling, and I'll keep on them till they and it usually it sounds like I'm upset. Like it sounds like that. I'm not trying to be funny, right? And you can see as soon as they say it, the the diffusion slowly. Now it doesn't mean it's over, it can completely re-hijack them again within seconds, but that process of teaching the kids, hey, tell me what you're feeling, call it out. You gain control over that emotion, so it doesn't control you. It is one of the most valuable person skills that I think exists. And and again, when we're talking about conflict, if you have two people in a conflict in high emotion, and good good luck, you're going to remain in conflict, right, Bill? Absolutely, 100%.

SPEAKER_05 38:31

Yeah. And I mean, what you've done is you're asking a question, which is causing the person to have to now process that question. And then one of the big things, too, and this is, you know, as a young coach, especially, I would tell people because I was the expert. Well, telling doesn't do it's not very good at influencing change or influencing behavior. So when you're asking the question, how are you feeling? Now they're thinking about it. You're not telling them how they're feeling, right? That's not going to go well. So now they're going, Well, I'm angry. And now they start to process that from their brain, their voice is going through this and creating the solution comes from them. It's not very good if you dictate a solution. It's it's peep humans, we don't like to be told. I right, like it or not, that's just the way we are. We like to work through it and tell ourselves, and then we have ownership over the situation, and we can work through it.

SPEAKER_03 39:23

So they may not here's another like kind of like sidebar comment here, right? Like, they may not say it, they may think it. And that's actually powerful too, right? Like, I think when we're in conflict, we we always everybody, but you want it to end, like you just don't want to feel uncomfortable. But the truth is, in my experience, most most conflicts don't end with like a hug and a thumbs up and a high five. You know, they end with you're not feeling great, but some time goes by, you process things. So even if my kid's thinking I'm angry and I just don't want to admit it, I'm angry. That's for progress too. But you got you, you're saying it, you have to get the question asked. You can't, you know, how many times have you gone? You're upset, you're upset. Don't tell me how I feel. No, I'm not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'm not. You don't know how like that's true, right? I I could be better at that too. And I think the other part of it um would be remiss if we didn't bring this up. Um, and this is funny because uh, this is something I work on all the time as a broadcaster. I speak a lot, might not listen as well as I speak. And we talk about active listening, or you do in the book, um, that that there's a difference between hearing and listening. And why don't you dive into that so I stop talking?

SPEAKER_05 40:27

Yeah, I mean, well, and that comes from this actually same class, um, you know, uh communications in conflict class, uh, just active listening. And it's funny, you know, and I I think I mentioned this in the book, you know, I would have athletes, you're not listening to me. Yeah, I am, you know. And then I took the class and kind of learned about active listening skills, and I'm like, well, you know, maybe I wasn't listening as well as I thought I was, or at the very least, I wasn't demonstrating because it doesn't really matter if I hear their words, if I'm giving them the impression that all I want to do is respond, all I want to do is tell them just waiting for your turn to talk. Yeah, yeah, it's about me, it's not about you. You know, I I you need to do this or that, um, you're not gonna get very far. But active listening uh skills are essential, it shows respect, you know, and giving them time, not responding to everything they say, listening, actually taking in what they're saying and processing it, writing notes instead of responding. There's a phrase if you uh if you're if you're listening to respond instead of listening to learn, right? That's a pretty good test right there, is of where you're at. And I I'd love to tell you I did it right, but I would listen to respond, you know. It's you know, it's been something I've had to work on. And I think a lot of people have to work on those active listening skills.

SPEAKER_03 41:43

You can imagine we have conversations like this a lot in my house about the stuff that I talk about. And Christy, Mike, you'll laugh at this, you know. Um, I look, it's true with my young kid all the time. It's like they'll be telling me something, and it I'm a parent, like I know what you need to be doing here, right? Right. And the other day, my my daughter and I were talking, and I was talking over, and she just goes, Dad, would you please just let me finish? You're not listening to me at all. And I'm sitting there like, okay, all right. I mean, she's right, she's right, she's totally right. It's like that that's a tough moment for every parent when your kids write, you don't want to admit it. But I go, Okay, you're right. And then she said what she had to say. I still didn't agree with her, but I listened. And she felt listened to, and it changed the conversation. So I thought that was a funny story.

SPEAKER_02 42:27

No, and then and it kind of dives into something I'd love for us to get into is repairing a relationship. Let's say you messed up, you know, you you blew it, right? You went the wrong direction, and your conflict ruined could possibly ruin a relationship. And we use this all the time a great comeback. So, how do you come back from that, Bill?

SPEAKER_05 42:48

Yeah, I think you know, using the same skills that that you didn't use in the conflict, I mean, because that means the conflict is still going, uh, or maybe it's changed, you know, but it's still a conflict. There are situations where it's a no return. I mean, that's unfortunate. But, you know, there uh you have to have two people willing to work together to rebuild or repair whatever conflict is about. So there are situations where you've gotten to the point where trust is never going to be regained, the person is determined. Uh not saying they're right, but you know, that's that's sometimes the way it is. But until you get to that point, there's always opportunities to improve. Um, if you uh I mean, I think Lee, you talked about apologizing, right? You know, on the for yelling at your player or snapping at them in that situation. So an apology, a genuine apology, a real apology, um, can go a huge long way towards breaking down those barriers and opening up the opportunity, opening the pathway to then use the tools that you that you hopefully have to work on the relationship. It brings it back down. If you don't apologize, or if you apologize incorrectly, I'm sorry you feel this way. But that's not an apology. Yeah, I hear that one a lot. Yeah, so if you're genuine and you're showing that you care about the relationship, you care about the person and you you see the value, the mutual value of being in that relationship and making it grow. I think most people a lot, you know, are gonna work with that. Is it gonna happen in two seconds? Probably not. It's probably gonna take some time, it's probably gonna be some trust that still isn't built back up. And you're gonna have to, and then I talk about this in the book too, you know. Um, whatever you say, whatever you apologize for, don't do it again. And whatever you say you're going to do, make sure you do. And as people see you doing that, if they see you living up to what you say, your trust builds, and you get you can get back. Um, and and it depends on the person. I I always think it's funny because um, you know, I I in my experience as a kid, you know, boys especially would like just hate each other and like even maybe get into a fist fight and then be best friends.

SPEAKER_03 45:01

Yeah, get a sandwich afterwards, yeah. Yeah, punch. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:04

Let's go for a sandwich and just beat each other up.

SPEAKER_03 45:07

I've had that happen. Listen, listen, I'll tell you guys this. Just I'm sorry, I have to tell the story. I was on in a game, in a game, got in a fight with the guy in the game, throwing punches at each other, got kicked out of the game. We brought it up. Both walked out of the locker room at the same time. Like no one's watching. You know what we did? I swear to tossed a beverage to each other and shook hands. Like this literally happened. We just got done. I'm bleeding. Like here's here's a drink. Like that happened. Go ahead. Sorry.

SPEAKER_05 45:34

No, I mean, so I mean, so you can repair things for sure, but it it depends on if you come with humility and curiosity and care. And I know those are for you know catchphrases, but I mean if you're coming at it so that there's a genuineness, and then as the relationship continues, you you prove that what you that you're genuine, that you are who you say you are and you care about this. I think you can repair amazing. I mean, there's a a lot of amazing opportunities to repair. And if you can't, then that wasn't a good, you know, then it's not gonna be a remote. You just have to accept it. Yeah, you have to accept it. Yeah. But I do think that's working.

unknown 46:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:13

Yeah, I find that too. And and look, I find if it if it's not working out, like look, different strokes for different folks, uh, you know, here's the other thing, you can move on. Like, you know, you you gotta find the like-minded people in your life that are gonna build you up and and things like that too. Um but I'll I'll tell you, one thing we do have to talk about because you just brought it up, is that player conflict, right? You were alluding to that a minute ago. As coaches, right, and parents, especially in youth sports, these kids are gonna go well, they're gonna go at it or not go at it, but they have to have this conflict. How would you explain this to teenage boys about the importance of conflict, or even younger than that, um, or teenage girls, right? How how do we explain to them like this is part of the process?

SPEAKER_05 46:56

Yeah, I mean, uh the way we have already, you know, what the benefits are. Um, I think if you can try to help people understand again that it's inevitable, I mean, it's going to like it's not a question of are you going to have conflict or not? It's a question of what do you do with it. So if if I have to go through the fire, then I would want to be the most uh uh prepared and educated on how to get through that fire without getting burned. Right. I don't want to leave it to chance. I don't want to just like, oh, you know, now that I'm forced and pushed through the fire, I'm just gonna take whatever happens. I'd want to have the resources, have the tools, have the knowledge, and have the plan to get through that the best possible. So it's an inevitability, you can't avoid it. So it's it's just a question of are you gonna step up and figure it out and make it a benefit to you? Right. Or are you gonna risk everything because you just I don't want to believe that it exists?

SPEAKER_03 47:56

I don't know. You know, what when I'll say this, Mike, I'm gonna throw it to you after this. When I was in college as a freshman, this is this is such an interesting story because to this day, I did not, I still don't think this was the right way to do things, but we won a championship, so maybe it was. But I remember we had to sit in a circle as a team. Our coach called this good in welfare. I'll never forget this. Sit in a circle, the whole team, and everyone had to say something that they were upset about with somebody else on the team. So you had to go around the circle and call a teammate out. Now, I hated it because I didn't always have something that I had to call out, like I felt a little forced, and not too much like everyone watching you do this, right? So we you want to talk about uncomfortable, it's really uncomfortable, all right. I would not recommend this exercise to a team, but where we were at at the time, this is a different time period. This is around the turn of the century, it's a primitive time period when it comes to this type of stuff, okay? But we won. We won. And I'll tell you what, we were not afraid to say things to each other. I just didn't appreciate the forced nature of that. I wish they would have said, if you have this problem, let's have a conversation. But hey, you know what? We had no problem airing our grievances by the end of that season, so there must have been something behind that. Um, and it just kind of shows you I'm still not resolved from this exercise. I still don't feel talking about making people uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 49:17

I would love to hear you weigh in on this, but I would not I would be so uncomfortable with that.

SPEAKER_05 49:23

I I wouldn't like that personally at all. Um and I probably I wouldn't recommend it, except that I will say that it does force you to get comfortable. I mean, you you're it's still uncomfortable, but there's a level of comfort you got with giving you know feedback, yeah, and it wasn't on you. So there's kind of a little it's a little bit of a a shortcut, I guess you'd say, or uh, you know, where the coach is making you do I'm not addressing this because I'm going to address it. The coach the coach forced me, so you know, so you gotta take it.

SPEAKER_03 49:58

There was a little bit of that, and and I do think that we we kind of bonded around the idea of we all hate this, yeah. So so it like that this is why I say it's primitive because I think the intention was right. I I just think just with what I know now, it's like no, I that's that's not you don't do this in public, right? But it just shows you like the the I mean there's just no clean path with this stuff, you know.

SPEAKER_05 50:23

Well, in a way, I think what it shows is that that people do recognize that conflict is important and you have to get through it, but they don't have the skills, they don't have the tools. So that's right, you know, what do we do? I mean, I as a coach, I didn't have all the skills on everything I ever needed. So sometimes I constructed something and sometimes it was good, and sometimes it was good intended, but wasn't the best idea. But I'm doing the best I can with what I have, and so I think like your coach is probably you know more unique in that he understood how important conflict and dealing going through that process was, but no fault of his. He didn't have necessarily have the more intricate skill set of right what the most effective tools are to deal with conflict.

SPEAKER_03 51:05

It was like, oh, this is a good idea, let's try it. That's kind of that one. But uh go ahead, Mike. Sorry about that.

SPEAKER_04 51:11

Yeah, he must have gone to some workshop uh one day. Um, I think I I think it's I think it's like well, I I don't know. I I I kind of you know, I think I've used those strategies before, no doubt about it, especially in high school and college, you know, when players are a little bit more mature, and not so much like, hey, let's call each other out. It's more like, okay, like I call them like accountability partners. Like, yeah, let's let's find some accountability without the team within the team. And I think I kind of reverse engineered what Lee was talking about with teams where I said, Well, why don't you tell me what you think you're not doing to help the team? Sometimes when players, you know, bring that up on their on their own, and they and they uh they have they they they they come into it a little humble. And they're like, Oh wow, you know, I I really told you I was gonna work out and I haven't. Or I told you I was gonna be, you know, I was gonna study film and I didn't. And I think and sometimes, you know, when two or three or four players say that, uh, all of a sudden it sheds light on on way on on why you you are or not successful. So I think you know, you talked about you know, conflict in teams often is a competitive advantage for teams. And I'm just wondering, you know, A, why is that? And you know, what does healthy conflict look like on championship teams?

SPEAKER_05 52:31

Yeah, I mean, again, the the the advantages, all the all the things I started with that that you can't get to. You can't you can't, you know, there aren't many better ways to improve your con your communication, um, engagement. So when you have conflict, you have to work through those things together. You know, you have to problem solve, you have to do things that you, if things are just kind of going, you're not gonna have to worry about those. And it's not for the again, um, my team that hadn't wouldn't do conflict, they still won the conference championship, but they were not prepared to win or do well at the regionals to go to nationals. So you can still do well, but to get to that next level, you have to be able to improve communication and increase trust and work together, learn how to work together and be able to talk about rough, you know, tough things. So those are the you know, those are the the things that are important through conflict. Um, I can't what was the other part of what you said or you asked me?

SPEAKER_04 53:32

No, I'm just wondering how do you use that that that you know that that the conflict in a positive way? Like why do you why do you want teams to have conflict and and and and and and the ability to overcome that uncomfortableness? Yeah, I just think that's where that steel sharpened steel mentality comes into play.

SPEAKER_05 53:50

And that does take conversations, it takes somebody doing something that maybe somebody else doesn't like and making it a part of your culture so that you get rid of the discomfort by getting uh uh by doing it, by having the experience, the knowledge and the experience. The more knowledge, anything we do. I always say, like um, if you you know, if you're gonna take a test and you don't know anything about the test, you're gonna be stressed because you don't have any experience, you don't have the knowledge. If you're gonna take a test and it's something you know inside and out, you you just roll in and ace it. So the discomfort, I think, most of the discomfort comes from the fact that we don't deal with conflict. We don't have people don't. They they avoid it, they don't have the skills, and so they're not used to it. Once you get better at it, once you know there's a plan, there's a process, there is a skill set that I can use, a toolbox, and I've done it and found out that it works. Now, now what is there to be afraid of? What is why should you avoid conflict if you have those skills, that experience, and have seen the results? So it but it's like everything else, it takes a bit of time. You have to work at it. I think also, you know, again, you were asking, you're asking your player questions. Um, back to that. What do you need to do better? What do you think you need to do better? Well, if you tell the uh it's just my experience. If I say you're just not working hard enough, well, that's now I'm gonna be defensive. What do you need to do better? Well, I'm not working hard enough. You you just said it now now now. So what are you gonna do? Do you want to change that? Do you want to be a part of this? Do you want us to be, you know? So now you've opened up a whole nother batch of questions that can work through that conflict, but it's their voice, it's them taking ownership of it and working through it. Um, if if you if you approach conflict as I'm gonna tell you, you know, we're at war, instead of as we're solving a problem, then you're not gonna get very far. But I think, I mean, ultimately, conflict to be positive is a problem-solving exercise. It's not a battle. We think of it as a battle. I'm, you know, the win-lose, you know, I need to win this conflict. Well, that's almost always lose, unless you don't care about the relationship, unless you have nothing to gain from the relationship. Uh so I think having that problem-solving mentality, which is asking questions, getting them to speak, maybe they tell you things that you need to change too, you know. I mean, that that are to the benefit of you and and the group, having that humility and that ultimate desire to just deliver the best for yourself and for your people that you're that you're leading and growing. If you have that mentality and you work through it, then conflict becomes, yeah, a positive problem-solving exercise, not a battle to the depth.

SPEAKER_03 56:51

You know, I want to say this too, to this comment. I do a lot of people watching just in nature, it's not not judgy, just pure curiosity. And one of the things that amazes me is how people default to aggression to try and solve a problem. There, that it's a preconceived that's how you solve a problem. Now, where do I see this? I see it at Starbucks when someone doesn't get a drink they like. I see it in customer service. And it's funny because you know, inevitably, you uh we will get an email at my company, like, hey, you guys really screwed this up. You you made a huge mistake and you screwed my order up. And it's funny, I will always respond with kind of kindness at first. Hey, I'm so sorry to hear about that. Like, I probably know what happened, right? Maybe they got maybe they put their address in wrong. It doesn't matter. Um, we'd love to help you fix this. Nine or maybe eight out of ten times when we do that, the the that nature of the email changes immediately. Oh, thank you so much. I'm so happy you're helping me. Okay. The other two times that it doesn't, um, I kind of realize I'm probably dealing with someone who's having a really bad day or a rational person. And I'm just like, I'm okay with that. Like, I don't I don't need to match that energy. What's funny is you know, I've been told by people is I'm a pretty upbeat person, all right. And they say, you don't see how bad it is out there. I'm like, no, no, I do see it. I I really do. All right. I just don't prescribe that I need to match that energy to be who I want to be. That's just my own personal view. None of you listening have to do that. This is me just talking about me. All right. And don't get me wrong, like if someone really gets in my face, I'm not just gonna become very kind suddenly as a hockey player my whole life. Like, you know, you get physical, something might happen. But I'm saying to you is I choose not to respond to it that way. All right. And I'm saying that 80% of the time, that diffuses a lot of the situation when they say, like, hey, I'm not, I'm not doing this. Like, that's you're not going to get that out of me. With that said, do I get angry? Do I shout? Of course, of course I do. I'm a human being, I'm not perfect at this, but it's a it's a practice, right? The sports conflict lab doesn't exist because we can figure it out in one try, right? Correct. And and and the last thing I'll say, and I really last thing for the show before I close it out, is every season I coach hockey every year. 80% of the conflict is familiar. There's always something I've never seen before happen. All right, some someone comes up, this person did this, and I did they did what? Like I just never heard that happen before, right? So it's it's a practice, and and you the more you practice it, the better you get at it. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 59:24

Also, um quickly we'll talk, and it may be obvious over the years back, yeah. Obviously, it's not my kids to develop some really great conversation skills and also conflict skills. But I've also seen it's more recently parents very quick to jump in and fix it for their kids. Yeah, you know, the fix it parents. Yeah, I think it's robbing their kids the opportunity to develop those really important life skills.

SPEAKER_05 59:57

Yeah, I mean, back to again, you know, get comfortable with the uncomfortable. If you don't, if you're not tested by the fire, if you don't have to work your way through things, you're not gonna learn them. You can't you can't sit on the bench and not practice and get better at hockey. Um, you have to go do it. And that hurts sometimes, you know, probably a lot of the time. Um, and but that's all right because you're getting by doing that, you're what you're what you're paying for in discomfort or you know, things like that, you're gaining in things that are invaluable to your life, your self-esteem, your ability to work with other people. I mean, and back to the you know, what sports is a laboratory and as a personal development. Sports, you know, most of us uh we're gonna do it. I don't know. Some people might do it till they're in their high school, done with high school. Some might get the the privilege of do being in in in college, not that many, less than people think. Um, some might get to even to be pro. That's pretty rare. Most of us, what we get out of sports is is a pretty short, you know, pretty small aspect of our life. But what we gain from that experience in sports does last a lifetime. And and whether that sounds grand or whatever, that's just, I mean, those are we, you know, we're all in sports. We know how valuable, how important, how critical, and how the unique ways in which uh people can grow through sports. So I think in all, you know, we're all, I mean, that's why this podcast exists, I you know, is is to try to make that better, try to make that experience better, trying to grow people at a higher level than they would have if they hadn't gone through this and hadn't learned all the various skills you learn. And conflict is one of them, and there's all kinds of other skills that are critical towards development. Um, and so this is just kind of that piece of the puzzle that hopefully takes people to the next level, um, not just for sport, not just for success and enjoyment in sport, but for life.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:55

Well, I'm gonna say it, man. This has been a great episode, Bill. And and look, for the audience listening, I'm gonna hold the book up. It again, not a paid segment in any way, guys. All right, this is a book. I'm gonna say it. Every coach should probably have this book. It is a pretty quick read. It's it's a fun read. It's called Managing Sports Conflict by Bill Taylor. Look for it and get it. And and parents, don't gift this to a coach and say, You need this. All right. But no, I'm serious. This is this is such an applicable. Or do but Bill doesn't. Yeah, actually, parents get this for a coach's birthday. Good holiday gift. Manage it.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:35

Yeah, and then and then follow what you read in it because you're gonna have conflict. Right right.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:39

Right. No, I I mean it is such a good guide uh for anybody that's dealing with conflict, which is everybody. So you should all check that out. But um uh Bill, are you gonna join us on a quick ride to the rink episode for the kids too? So for the parents listening to this, coaches listening to this, thank you so much for listening. Um, we'll we'll we'll let the kids know about this too in a shorter segment. But for Christy Cashiano Burns, Mike Benelli, and Bill Taylor, I'm Leis. It's been a great edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Remember, gang, if you have questions, if you have thoughts, if you've had conflict you want us to discuss, I mean that. Email us, team at our kidsplayhockey.com or use the link accompanying this episode in the description. You can text us the conflict. Uh again, we don't always have to read them online or on the air if you don't want us to, but check that out. Uh, but for the gang here, everybody have a great day. Enjoy your conflict. We'll see you on the next play hockey. We hope you enjoyed this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or our website, our kidsplayhockey.com. Also, make sure to check out our children's book, When Hockey Stops, at When Hockey Stops.com. It's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much for listening to this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey, and we'll see you on the next episode.