Changing The Game With Coach John O'Sullivan

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Hey everybody, it's Lee. Got a great episode today with John O'Sullivan. Let me put it this way. I'm not going to do this guy's resume in the open here because it would take too long, but this is a guy you're going to want to listen to. He is something, somebody, excuse me, that Mike Christie and I listen to regularly. He's a leader when it comes to youth sports. Uh, and you're gonna just draw an amazing amount of information today out of this episode about coaching approach to youth sports in general, uh, and mentality as a parent, uh, mentality as an athlete. You're gonna want to listen to this one, uh, probably with your kids, because John O'Sullivan is a big name in youth sports, uh not just here, but through his TED Talk, through his books, through his work with the Changing the Game project. And also, real quick before we jump in, if you want to support us, if you want to support this show, head over to ourkidsplayhockey.com and check out our curated gift section. Uh, we have off-ice training tools there for the offseason, the summertime, which we're heading into right now. We've got gifts for coaches, for families. If you're just a big hockey fan, we've got some great gifts there as well. And uh, again, we've created these deals through guests that we've had on and people that we know support the show. So, again, if you're looking to support us, check it out, ourkidsplayhockey.com. Just look for the gift guide. Uh, but if that's not your jam, no worries. Let's get in the episode right now with John O'Sullivan. Hello, hockey friends and families around the world, and welcome to another edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. I'm Leah Lyus, and I'm joined by Hockey Podcast of the Year winners, Christy Cassiano Burns and Mike Benelli. Our guest today, John O'Sullivan, has also had an award-winning resume. Let me take you through some of these highlights. He is the host of one of the top-rated podcasts in the world for coaches, aptly titled The Way of the Champions Podcast. In addition, he is leading youth sports blogging, and he is an author of two number one best-selling books, Changing the Game and Every Moment Matters. He has another book coming out. We're going to dive into that on the show today as well. He is known internationally as a TEDx speaker, and we highly recommend that you watch his talk titled Changing the Game in Youth Sports, which we know you will after listening to this episode. He is also the founder of the Changing the Game Project, which was started in 2012. We'll also get into that today. He sits on the national board for the Positive Coaching Alliance and the National Association for Physical Literacy. He is a former collegiate and professional soccer player and has coached for over 20 years from the youth through collegiate levels. He has consulted with the U.S. Olympic Committee, USA Soccer, USA football, USA lacrosse, USA swimming, Ireland rugby, Aussie Rules football, and many more. And today he is here to consult with us. John, that was an awesome resume. Welcome to Our Kids Play Hockey.

SPEAKER_02 4:00

Thanks for having me on. It's an honor to be your first guest since the announcement of the sports podcast awards. I I was reading them on their email list and I saw that the other day. I'm like, wait a sec. I think I'm on that show next week. So this is awesome to be here.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

Well, thank you, sir, for the compliment. We are deeply honored by that. And I was actually telling Christy and Mike and Caitlin, our producer, you probably are the perfect guest for the next episode after because uh you stand for everything that we stand for on this show. And I know that our listening audience loves hearing from people like you because in the hockey world, I think what happens is there's so much uh, I don't want to call it toxic culture, but negativity that people come to this show to get away from that. Um, so I think it's great that you're here today because I think it's gonna really invigorate a lot of people, especially as we step into the offseason when we're recording this.

SPEAKER_02 4:52

Well, I appreciate that. Thanks so much.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

No, thank you. So, John, I wanted to start with this question. Our most popular episode of all time is titled Three Things You Should Say to Your Kids Before You Step on the Ice. Um, and and we went through a lot of great ones in that. But one of the biggest takeaways I had from your TED talk was one of those things. And it was to always say to the kids, I love watching you play. And first off, I want you to know I always say that to my son and daughter before they take the ice now. It's become a part of my routine, along with, you know, I love you no matter what happens out there.

SPEAKER_02 5:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

Um, but can we just take a few minutes to dive into the psychology behind that and why you feel that is so important to say to your children before they play sports in general?

SPEAKER_02 5:32

Yeah, sure. And I I certainly don't take credit for making up the idea that um you should tell your kids you you love them no matter what. Um I heard it first from a guy named Bruce Brown, and I thought, wow, that's such a simple thing. My kids are super young at that time, and it, you know, and and it just became a habit of mine as well. And it's just amazing how many people will write me and say, I just saw your TED talk. I I've been doing that for years, and I tell people all the time it makes such a difference. So, I mean, I think the psychology behind it is just it frees your children from the burden of being responsible for your happiness, right? And I don't think anyone spends all the time and money to put their children in any youth sport just because uh, you know, because they want to be miserable, or that their love of their child is dependent on whether they win or lose or play well, but yet oftentimes our words and our actions before, during, after a game reflect something different to the kids. And so creating the this sort of habit around what do I do pre-game, what do I do post-game, that just makes it a consistent response to your to your child so that they never get too high and they never get too low, right? And and it's funny because different kids want different things, right? My daughter, you know, loves to chat about the game right after in the car. And you know, the the only question that has ever once occurred to my son is what can we when can we eat? How soon? And what is it gonna be? You know, so yeah, I mean it's just an important important thing that if we just create that habit, it's just really powerful. Uh and it lets your kids own the whole experience rather than it being your experience.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

Right. And it's not too late to develop those habits, especially if parents have some bad ones, right? Well how do they start?

SPEAKER_02 7:31

Yeah, and and Christy, I mean, we were talking before the show how how your daughter just played her last collegiate hockey game. And um, I've had parents call me and say, Yeah, my kid's a senior in college, and I just told him or her I love watching you play no matter, you know, for the first time. And we both broke down in tears, you know, because I had never seen said that before. Where were you 10 years ago or something? So yeah, it's never too late.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

I I think another important part of that, John, is that I think a lot of parents feel that, but don't say it. So I think it's important when we're talking about that, you know, saying it is one thing, and it and it does mean something to the kids. I know it meant something to me when I was growing up, but there's also just simply not saying it, and that that that can have an effect as well. We shouldn't assume that the kids know that that's how we feel about them. And you know, in my journey as a parent, as all of us, I'm often surprised by the discoveries I make of wow, I wonder if my parents felt this way. And of course they did, because they're going through the journey as well. So, so you know, for those of you listening, there's a power in not saying it too, and it's not a good power, right? So, whatever your your choice phrases are. Um, that was that, you know, Ted is all about ideas worth spreading. That was a fantastic idea to spread. And I'm gonna say it again to our audience. Please, when you're done with this episode, watch this TED talk. It is not that long. I believe it's 20 minutes, John, if I'm not mistaken. Um, it will impact you.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

Four 14. There you go. It's 14 minutes because I and I know that because I spent a hundred hours writing a 14-minute talk.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

So yeah, that's why it was so good. Um, John, I wanted to move on to this. This this is a perfect one. We received an email from a listener uh recently that was actually saving for this episode. Because I wanted to get your thoughts uh as part of this group. So, in short, he asked us to speak about the pressure that parents put on their kids to perform. And he specifically referenced having watched his kids get older and the focus of parents having changed from, and this is his quote, development to performance. And this seems to be a common threat in youth sports. So, my question for you, and it's for the whole panel, what do you believe are the contributing factors and what should we do to change that conversation so that we don't leave the development mindset and only worry about performance?

SPEAKER_02 9:51

I mean, that's such a such a great question. And I think the problem with that is we've taken that shift off development far too young, right? When we start labeling, you know, children who sleep with teddy bears as elite, right? Then we start thinking about performance and instead instead of development. And what's development? Development's all about making mistakes and learning from those mistakes and and things like that. You know, here's a funny story. I um years ago, I was doing a talk for like the uh Missouri Hockey Coaches Association, and I finished the talk, and their president, I think at the time, got up and uh he's like, Wow, that talk just reminded me of the story of my son. And he said, you know, we were at this quote, air quote super important, you know, under 10 tournament or something like that. And he goes, We uh the game was about to end. We had a face-off in our end with about 10, 15 seconds left. The other team was ready. My son was supposed to take the face off, and he's just skating around in circles and skating around in circles. And and the official was like, Hey, come on. And my son didn't come over, so he just dropped the puck, the kid takes it, scores, we lose the tournament final. And all the parents are beside themselves, and I'm beside themselves. And so we get in the car after, and I said, And my son, uh, you know, what were you thinking about in that moment? And he goes, Turtles, turtles, right? And and it's just like you know, you have to look at who's in front of you. And oftentimes we we we treat uh children like mini adults and just assume they're smaller versions of us, but they they have the same needs and values and priorities, and certainly uh they do not. And so I I think one of the most important things is there's it it's really sport for development uh, you know, uh in until your 20s, to be honest, right? If you're a pro, you're still developing. I mean, when does a hockey player reach their peak in their late 20s? So great, you're developing now. You might be getting paid and you might be um you know, you might be uh uh, you know, on TV and playing for a championship. And it doesn't mean that winning doesn't take on more significance as you grow older, but it's still sport for development. And especially when kids are playing cross ice hockey and and and especially before puberty, you know, it's never about performance because you have no idea what anyone's gonna be until after they they go through their growth spurt anyway. So trying to judge who's elite and who's not, and you know, this is about performance and and and winning when really it's often about, you know, when were you born in the calendar year and when did you grow? It's just kind of ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

It is ridiculous. You're right. Um, and also we we see we talk a lot about this about the early specialization of kids and not enough free time and free play for the kids to learn how to be creative when they're in situations too.

SPEAKER_02 13:06

Definitely, definitely. And it doesn't mean that a kid who loves hockey can't play a lot of hockey, but you also have to walk the path with them of when do they want time off? When do they need you know, I really do want to go to that birthday party. I really, you know, don't want to go to four weeks of skating camp all summer long and stuff like that. I just need to be a kid. Sorry, Mike interrupted you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:30

No, no, no. I just like well, so so I have like years and years of watching you and and stealing so much stuff from your change in the game project. I mean, I think every like guide borrowing, Mike.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

We're borrowing. He's on the air with it.

SPEAKER_03 13:41

But I think I think every steal away, steal away. I think I think every every parent's guide that I put out for the last you know eight years, nine years has had, you know, snippets of you know your research and and and your conversations in there, you know, only because you know you you've eloquently put these in and articulated a lot of what we all feel as parents. And my fear, you know, really what you know, you know, I'm sure, you know, not getting frustrated, like for a guy like you, right? And I know for me, it's like I'm doing this all the time, and I and I I actually I'm not around a lot of change. Like I see it going the wrong way. And well, you know, in my mind, the wrong way, right? So and I've always I've for the last maybe 10 years, I've I've tried to reframe, you know, again, I work mostly with youth hockey, um, youth lacrosse and framing that development, like who cares about development? Like, like I I don't know. I don't I it's hard for me to understand why we put our kids into programming for development because that's not what we put them in for. We put them in to have an activity and have fun. And development is a byproduct of having fun and and loving the game and finding ways to love. So, you know, when I see coaches, especially in the hockey settings that I'm in, you know, say, well, this is a developmental program. Well, number one is you're all we're all in development. I mean, you know, unless you're unless you're a program that's able to go, okay, I'm having a trial for 300 kids, I'm selecting 15 that somebody else developed, and I'm just gonna take them. And then next year, hopefully these other guys develop more kids so I can take them and cut the kids I didn't develop, you know, to the cycle, you know, that we see at the youth sports level. And I now I'm seeing it creep in for the this is the first time in like in the last 34 years. Now I'm seeing it at our recreation lacrosse level. Like nobody plays recreational hockey anymore. Nobody plays recreational lacrosse in my world. I I'm in the East Coast, Northeast, everything's about can we how do we end the the rec season quick enough so that we can get to the the elite travel season?

SPEAKER_01 15:45

And I right and parents fall into that trap too, Mike, because everybody around you is doing it. So that means I have to do it too. No one's saying, time out. Right.

SPEAKER_03 15:56

So when I when I when I've read, I mean, the nice thing about reading John's stuff and look and following his, you know, the stuff that he puts out is that and Lee, right? It's very similar to what we get in in our own private messaging. Like you feel like, okay, well, there's somebody else out there that I have some allegiance to that's sane, like that's really trying to send this message out that it's not about development, it's about activity and fun and everything else. And guess what? If you if you put your kids in those situations, they will develop. They will become elite athletes later on because of the info, because they're they're still playing. And John, maybe you could speak real quick before we have to leave.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

Yeah, and the importance of you you still need all those elements of developing good habits and and work and then.

SPEAKER_03 16:45

But does it really matter if your 10-year-old is a horrible player, but they love the game? Like it doesn't matter. Like, like, like I I've worked with so many kids that like I run, I run a little junior ranger program. These kids are, you know, I you know, what I whoever listens to this, right? Is they're not elite athletes. They're not the best 10-year-olds in their age group, but I can tell you this they love coming to the rink and they hate getting off the ice. And I could run that same exact program, that same lesson plan. And I do with the a the quote unquote elite athletes in that same age group, and they love it, and they can't wait to get off the ice. Now, I could put those same elite athletes into line drills and beat them up and yell at them, scream at them, and tell them how much they suck and they're not worthy of wearing the jersey. What is our end game? Our end game is to, and and John speaks about this a lot in his talks, is like, you know, what's the statistics, John? 13 years old, 12, 13? All of a sudden, you know, that's where kids say, Mom, Dad, I'm done. I can't take this anymore.

SPEAKER_02 17:50

Yeah. I mean, I hopefully they say that. Hopefully they say that. You you you touch on so many different points there from a parenting perspective and and a coaching perspective. You know, number one, it should be about joy, right? And even when we've had Steve Kerr on the podcast or, you know, national champion collegiate coaches, they talk about joy. Joy is the number one thing that drives what they do to win championships at the highest level. Why wouldn't joy be what it's about with nine-year-olds or 10-year-olds? And it and it has to be. And and that doesn't matter whether they're in, you know, year one, welcome to hockey, or they're classified as a quote, talented eight-year-old or nine-year-old or 10-year-old. It's still about joy, right? It's not hockey work. It's it's it's playing hockey. And and so I I think that's such a critical thing for us never to forget. It doesn't matter how good your kid is, how fast, how how strong, how technical, if they don't love it, they're eventually gonna walk away. Right. Or if they don't walk away because they're complying with you or you're forcing them to play, you'll ruin your relationship. And and they're gonna be in therapy later on for a long time because of a lot of identity issues caused by youth sport. And and it's the only thing we we spend like so much time and energy on. Like, you know, our kids' public success in sport, right? Like how many, you know, which is so sad because there's so many other things to make a great, well-rounded human being, but yet we the whole spotlight is on is on sport success. And um and then I think from a coaching standpoint as well, right? Like, you know, games-based drills, especially in a sport like hockey, that is right, it's an invasion game. It's moving fast. It's, you know, in in split seconds, kids have to perceive what's happening around them, come up with a solution to the problem, uh, choose the right solution, technically execute it, assess their choice and do it again, right? That's an invasion.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

And fail eloquently.

SPEAKER_02 20:05

And fail eloquently, and and fail most of the time, right? And so you put kids in line drills with no defenders and running super fancy patterns, right? And then all of a sudden, and and and so parents, they come to practice and look at all those cones and look at the organization and whatever, and then they don't understand why it's chaos on Saturday. But like if your practice isn't chaotic, you'll never learn how to play on Saturday. Right. And so, and so we we we have all these different issues of the way we coach is oftentimes the worst way to prepare them for a chaotic game environment. And and the the way we treat kids is the worst way to keep them in sport for a long enough time to actually be good.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

Right.

unknown 20:55

Right?

SPEAKER_02 20:55

The only kid who doesn't get better is the kid who quits.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

That's that's the worst nightmare of every coach, too. Uh we always say don't be a kid's last coach on this show a lot. And you know, John, another recurring theme on this show, you know, we're talking about performance development. It's what is the focus of those words? And we say all the time, it's is it on the athlete or the person? I wrote down here, you know, focus on the development of the person, the performance of the person, and the other stuff typically takes care of itself. We did an episode, I actually have to thank Mike and Christy for this. I haven't had a chance to do this yet. Um, but we did this episode of, you know, should my kids play Spring League? And and I have the youngest kids on the show, so I'm experiencing a lot of these uh pressures for the first time. And I'm so thankful for for these two John people like you. Uh you know, I seek out these communities because even I was a bit conflicted of should my kid play Spring League? And and the consensus was take a break. We did. I'm so happy that we did because you you can feel it within a week of like wow, I'm just totally more relaxed than I was. Oh, it really does. It really does. And it's been nice to just spend time. I went to a movie with the kids the other day.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

That's like a oh my gosh. We actually went to a movie.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

We went to a movie as well.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

That doesn't happen during the hockey season.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

We didn't talk about hockey at all, Dorian. But but uh we talk about you know those types of concepts and the fact that we're always learning, you know. Mike, Christy, John, I got this from uh from a friend the other day. They were asking me about um what should I do to improve my my kids' skating this summer? All right, and the kids, the kids nine, 10 years old. And I I want to preface this with this I'm not against good skating instruction if a kid is ready for it and wants it. There is a lot of value in high-level skating instruction. But I told these parents, take your kid to a public session and leave them alone. Let them dodge the other people on the ice, let the skate guards yell at them for playing tag. But I said a kid will learn his edges or her edges faster at a public session on their own playing, right? John having some joy than they will with me or anyone else just teaching them. Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:03

Excellent advice. But John, John, and you know, that's what's so fun. Like, right, right, John, is that is that the the the ironic thing is if you want your nine year old to be a better skater, then don't let somebody drill the skating ability out of them in in practice for 28 weeks. Like I look at we use this example all the time uh to any of the any of the parents I talk with. Like if you want to go, if you go to a the greatest power skating coach in the world and they you work with them for a week and then you have me take your kid for 28 weeks and I just drill the kids and I don't care what their form looks like. I don't care if they're using their edges correctly. I don't know I don't care if they're extending properly all the things they learned in that one little week I'm drilling out of them for 28 weeks. I will win that development race in a in a bad way. Right. My my kids are going to be really good at being bad at that skill. And I think that's where like what Lee's doing like like I talk to eight and nine year old parents all the time is that the best way to be a better skater? Don't skate. Go run. Go do a pivot go go play tennis go do some go get on a slide board do something different with your muscles and and and your body and your mind and and create a different environment and I think what we all try to do and maybe John you can speak to a little bit only from experience especially experience across all the sports you work with like if a kid is going to be great are couldn't we do more damage than not by not just allowing that player to play? Like if a player's going to be great they're going to be great if you just sometimes just leave them alone. Just let let them have joy.

SPEAKER_02 24:44

Yeah I mean I think first of all very few people know what really good looks like right they have no idea right oh I watch pro hockey on TV or whatever. And that does nothing right you need to get on the ice and and watch at ice level really up close to see how fast and everything that's moving. So most of the people who think that their kids special have no idea what special looks like right now the ones who do are you know usually people who played at a at a high level and so so they get it right a lot of it I think is the luck of having a really good coach when a kid's young and it sort of ignites that passion and and they feel competent early on um which is super helpful. And then yeah I mean when when you're young kids right like we we see we sometimes treat kids like they're robots and and all we need to do is program all this technical or skating ability into them and they'll be fine. But they're not they're human beings and they have emotions and they have desires and motivations. And so if a kid is like super excited like yeah I want to go to skating camp okay we can try a week but if it's you're the one who's excited and it's you're going oh my God but if we don't and Jenny's kids do and you know Bill's kids do then my kid's going to fall behind. Well now your your young child will comply but now the next hockey season rolls around they're not excited for hockey season because they because it never ended the last one never ended right and so versus like hey you take a break I mean here's the thing I I would bet that everyone in the NHL was probably the best athlete in their high school right anyone in major league baseball was probably the best athlete in their high school or pretty darn close to it right so helping your kid become a great athlete is super important when they're young. Right and and yes hockey has the specific skill of skating and do it that doesn't necessarily come as naturally but you're you're easing that in but uh again you can also make him a great skater and totally burn him out by 12 13 and and then what what was what was the point?

SPEAKER_00 27:10

You know John to that point in hockey um I was very fortunate in my hockey journey to play as long as I I did I love skating and no one ever took that away from me right and and I think back now about you know the reasons I kept going and the reasons I love to play and I I love hockey I do. But man I love skating it was never a chore to me. Right. And I'm realizing I think in today's world that might have been taken right in the sense of of uh because I was a skilled skater at a young age I think I would have been plucked and do this clinic do that clinic do this clinic do that clinic I just skated and I loved it right I we you can get caught up in in the tornado of as we talked about earlier elites supreme whatever you know and and as a parent you go well he's got to go there man I I it's very hard to make pro hockey college hockey high level hockey if you don't love hockey it it and I'll tell you what the people I see that do make it that don't like it which does happen it is a tough conversation and they are typically extremely depressed right um again I don't want to go too deep into that but it's it's if they don't love the game there there really is very little chance of them going beyond a certain age. I I do want to I do want to shift here because I want to talk about the changing the game project.

SPEAKER_02 28:28

Yeah let me let me just I just want to just add one piece because I think it's important and and that were word love I I don't want the listeners to to miss that that the greatest gift you can give your kids is to help them fall in love with the sport. The greatest thing a coach can do is help kids fall in love with the sport. We're all talking about I coach soccer you all coach hockey or you know whatever I mean you can play until you're 60 or 70 right like you know if we stop looking at at um sport journey is something that ends when they're 18 or in the case of your your daughter Christy 21 or 22 and looked at it as like hey this is a 50 year journey we're talking about a three to five year slice here would we treat it and act differently in those three to five years if this was three to five years of 50 versus like when we go to the gym right you know we don't we don't treat our kids like you know what you're not going to lift a single weight after the age of 18. So you better get it all in now. Like we don't do that. And and when I you know I I don't know if you guys know this you know I coach soccer at University of Vermont and um my office door was right next to Gutterson Ice Rink. And uh I used to go eat lunch in in sort of like May and June when the NHL season ended all the former UVM guys used to come back and play pickup every morning. And I used to go and bring my lunch and go sit down on the bench and watch because I got to know some of them and I'm watching pickup hockey and it's John Leclerc Aaron Miller uh Marty St.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

Louis uh Tim Thomas you know NHL All Stars World Champions whatever and they just like to play hockey yeah you know they just like to play and they're just sitting there playing pickup with the college guys and it was amazing to watch it was so awesome to watch also and conversely be open to your kids teaching you how to fall in love with a sport too because honestly I was a figure skater knew nothing about hockey didn't really care for hockey my husband baseball player other sports soccer my kids for some unknown reason were driven to play hockey and we introduced them to every other sport on the planet but somehow they gravitated toward the ice and then I fell in love with it through them. So you also have to have your heart open to what they are passionate about and want to pursue.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Yeah sorry Lee sorry to interrupt no no no please you are always ready to interrupt it's fine with me Chrissy I was going to say I would love to go back in time 20 years and say hey you're gonna be a host of one of these award winning podcasts one day you're nuts. John no thank you I'm glad you brought it up John because actually I you made me think of something I haven't thought of um you teach your kids the passion and love of something which then can be applied to lots of other things including a family not just professional work. You know um I don't know why you triggered this thought in my head but I I think and I've gotten this compliment more than once uh but it might be the greatest compliment I've ever received in terms of my hockey journey was they would say I see how much you love that game and how passionate you are about that game and I know you can do it in this relationship or this job. I've been told that right so so it transcend it had nothing to do with my skill or my or my journey. It had everything to do with with the love and the passion. People saw that um and I and I think anyone who's passionate or in love with something you can see it and it teaches you an aspect of that word love and the definition of the word love which is so important because not everybody has a wonderful definition of that word. People perceive love in different ways some through pain.

SPEAKER_02 32:23

Right? So but love is I mean love is the single most important ingredient in great coaching love is the single most important ingredient in great teams and and and love is the single most important ingredient in getting better at something. If you don't love it you're you're not going to invest enough in something to be very good whether it's your relationship your job um or your development in school sport music whatever but when someone has that passion and especially when a teacher has that passion it is you know it is crystal clear to that teachers, students, that coaches athletes um yeah it's it's crystal clear.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

Well and I think it often goes unsaid or not talked about. I think there's a stigma surrounding exactly what we're talking about. And that's actually a perfect segue into a couple things here. So we're gonna talk about about John's organization, the changing the game project but before we do John, I wanted to read this little story here because um a lot of times I think in the work that we're all trying to do it can sometimes seem to to the audience like it's an uphill battle that the the negativity the toxicity is so uh uh vampant that we you know we we can't get past it but here we go you know we talk about breaking the status quo I want to give a shout out to the Battery Hockey Academy who announced this week that they will be removing the words elite and selects from all of their teams. And I I'm not gonna lie to you I was a little shocked to read this because this is something I think we've all been pushing for it's a it's a first step it's not a large step. And they they wrote a very lengthy um explanation of why and that the development of these kids as people is more important than being on a select or an elite team. And that that brings me John to what you do uh and and I'm I want everybody listening to really take note of this because this is an amazing resource that we all use and it could be one for you too. The Changing the game project which has been a game changer pun intended um uh is all about youth sports and on that site you provide education resources speakers thoughts books so much more on how we can as you put it return youth sports to our children and I know that the audience agrees with the mission completely but I'm also sure as we said they might see it as a major uphill battle. So what are some of the steps we can take through the project and as a community as a whole to make changes like this within our own organizations because I know there are people listening that want to take these steps but they have no idea where to start it's a great question and it is a great story and congratulations to that to that group for having the courage to do that because usually what happens is someone pops up next door and says oh yeah well we're the elite ones then I didn't read the comments after I just read the I read the the the note I didn't want to read any of the comments you know the comments are the best part go in and read the comments yeah so so that's so that's that's the thing.

SPEAKER_02 35:21

You know, I mean I I think if your question is about as an organization well I think the first organization we're part of is a is a family. And so as a family as as parents of our children in sport I think the first thing we have to do is come up with a clear sort of mission statement about what is the purpose of sport in our children's lives. And I don't think most parents would come up with a thing of like to raise an elite hockey player or raise an elite now I realize socioeconomically sometimes they're like this is the only way out of a really bad situation through sport and we might put more emphasis in it. But you know if if we are you know a family where we we've been college educated and our kids are probably on that path and whatever, you know, sport is something that is is sh would usually be used to develop character and develop a better human being and we're just using sport as the vehicle. So if that's the goal that at 22 years old or 18 or 22 or beyond, I want a fully functioning human being who's physically healthy, mentally emotionally healthy, who has a love for activity and movement which has so many benefits in their life and and has been surrounded by great positive mentors who have taught him or her, you know, all this important stuff about dealing with adversity and struggle and and failure and sportsmanship if that's why we put our kids in sport, if that's the goal, then work backwards from there. What do we need to do at eight? What do we need to do at 10? What do we need to do at 12? Who cares if this coach wins more games than anyone else if he or she is emotionally abusive of children and most people quit who play for them then who cares? Right? Who cares if they won all their games well yeah how many of their players are still playing for that club at 18 that were there at 10 or like Mike said before did they just go out and recruit more kids whose coaches develop them because they don't develop them right and so I think uh you know family wise we start with where do we want to be in 10 years and work backwards from there. As an organization I think we have to do the same thing. And as an organization we have to recognize well what is our mission and if our mission is you know that hey we just want to build the love of the game and that there's you know maybe a junior NHL team or a triple A team nearby our our mission really shouldn't be to keep all the kids and don't let anyone go there like hey let's build a partnership with them and let's develop and when kids move on we celebrate those kids right and and and then we move the next group up in to take their place because you know we take pride in developing kids and moving them on. Like what where I see so many organizations fail is they try to be everything to everybody and they lose sight of their mission statement and they don't have the facilities and the money and the coaching and the things to to truly be you know a triple A hockey organization or you know an academy program in soccer or whatever. But they try to do that and they try to hoard their kids and they don't encourage kids to outgrow their programs. And and so you know just getting crystal clear on what your values are and realize that it's not going to be for everyone and it's okay. Like it's okay. If you want to fly first class and on your airlines don't buy a Southwest ticket because they don't have first class and they're okay with that. Right? Like that's what made them successful at least up into the last couple of years was they're crystal clear on who they are and what they wanted to do. And if that wasn't for you okay fair enough you've got lots of other choices out there.

SPEAKER_03 39:20

Right. I I think that's the that's the real you know for a guy like me and what I do, right? That's where the frustration comes with me is because sometimes you look at some of these teams that I work with and they have they're sprinkled in with their their the parents are division one college hockey coaches, ex pro athletes, people that have have played at the highest level of a game and then they become a parent like they fall into it. They fall into like oh my God my kid's not getting enough ice time he's not on the power play how come they keep short shifting him I think that coach doesn't uh appreciate them I go he's a six I go like he's he he's like like where like I think that and I think everybody wants to be you know the William sisters. Like everybody thinks their kid is that kid right you know so so it's hard when you say hey listen statistically and and and I and I I agree with you most parents if you if you sat them down and you said what are your goals for your kids I want them to be healthy. I want them to love going to a sport I want to be lifelong learners and lifelong physical fitness enthusiasts or whatever. And then when when it when the rubber hits the road though it's like well it for those kids like my kids actually really good like my kid my kids being called by two coaches right now. They're being recruited by this other select team you know uh I got a call I'm I'm in New York but this coach in Oregon wants me to come you know play for him for some elite showcase tournament and you don't want to come play hockey in Oregon it's getting better it's getting better. So I think I think I think it's it's one of those it's it's this is the dilemma is that the governing bodies I think the governing bodies need to this is my opinion eliminate the elite stuff because your your your because you just said it John what is your mission and I guarantee in those mission statements there's something in there about youth and allow it and and being a a vehicle for youth to experience the sport in a positive uplifting way. So if that's your mission be your mission don't worry about all the other you know the the numbers are going to be there if you're a youth organization I use the term developers and compilers like you have a program that just develops a community based program develops kids keeps them they're loving it they like it and then you have the compilers which are the teams that you know say we're staking our flag down we're gonna be a triple A organization you're gonna try out for us it's cutthroat you may play you may not play but if you're on our team this is who you're gonna be you you've chosen that like just like you said I chose to go Southwest or I chose to go Luftunza. Like I chose that. So don't come to me in December and say oh my God this is the worst experience for my kid you chose that you knowing full well what that organization was that I think too many of us fall into the category that our kids are better than the other kids that we play with rather than say oh no that kid actually look at that kid's that kid's a really good eight year old and and and and and I and and sometimes and they need to leave you know yeah and they get drawn into these organizations and also have this big selling point. Hey if your kid is on this team they're going to be that elite player we're gonna give them the path to play college hockey you see it all the time um and parents buy into it and it's it's when you're sucked into it it's hard to see clearly honestly right and we affect that right John how many how many when you were at University of Vermont how many how many 10 U soccer games did you go to to recruit players from yeah uh zero yeah it's like you know and I was like I was like and I I we joke around a couple of times here like there hasn't been a squirt major championship you know alumni game at the Marriott this year. You know it's just just you know you don't come back in 20 years and say remember that championship we won out in Hopog and we beat the Nassau County Lions beat the uh Long Island Kells it doesn't happen.

SPEAKER_02 43:25

So yeah um uh there's a great someone said to me once um and uh I think it was Nicole Lavoy who runs the Tucker Center for Women's Sport she said to me parents are vampires and I said what does that mean and and because I don't watch like Twilight I don't watch vampire movies so I don't know if it either of you do do you know what happens uh what what is it about vampires when they look in the mirror they can't see their own reflection right and and so that was her point is that we don't see our behavior in ourselves we see it in everyone else right and so when I started changing the game project right I didn't I mean like it was a struggle for years to kind of get it up and running but whenever I was on an airplane um you know and someone asked me what I did and I told them no one ever said oh that's dumb they're like oh my god you have to come to my town right because then and then their next thing was because all the other parents are nuts. I'm good like no one's ever gone because I'm nuts like this you know so so I think this is this is our thing is you know and and and sadly what it usually takes people don't see you know you talk to orthopedic surgeons uh parents don't see it until the kid's third ACL or fourth concussion right their third concussion they're like when can we get them back out there? We've got a sectional playoff game this weekend it's like your kid's got a traumatic brain injury right they can't leave a darkened room and you're worried about getting them back in the field like we're trying to make sure that they're a healthy functioning adult. And so whether it's burnout whether it's injury whether it's all these things we usually don't see it until it's too late. And again, I I I 99%, 99.9% of parents are are great. You know, there's a small percentage that are probably mentally ill and and have, you know, we can't do a ton there, but most are great and the intentions are great and they're doing things out of love, but they get so caught up in the whole thing. Like when I coach, if I I always ask like a young team, like, how many of you is this your you know, first your oldest child going through this for the first time? And if a lot of hands go up, this is gonna be rough, right? Because like, and it's my job to educate and teach and and just get you to relax and and enjoy this journey because it goes by very fast. Um, but if everyone's like, nah, this is my fourth kid, I'm like, oh, this is sweet, because like they're just like, whatever, just go because they know how it ends.

SPEAKER_00 46:05

You know, Joe, I want to say too, just to prove your point, right? And and this is why communities like this podcast, like the Changing the Game Project, are so important. Um, and I and I I use myself as an example because you know, Christy, Mike, all these episodes, they encourage me to look in the mirror. Right? I I'm not impervious to I've played the game, I host a show about the game, but even I some like they said, that taking a break in the spring. I struggled with that. Yeah, still, yeah, you did, right? So it's it's it's you were this close to the case.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

I really was.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

I was I was thinking about it, and and you know, you know, um some of the thoughts that you're forced, who is this for? Is it for them or is it for me? You know, like it so I think part of the uh if solutions might not be the word, but part of the path forward is finding like-minded communities where they can encourage you, not force you, but encourage you to say, hey, you're a vampire sucking the life out of your kid, and you can't see your own reflection. Maybe not that harsh, but yeah, you know, I think that's a huge part of this the the the way forward.

SPEAKER_02 47:09

Yeah, and I think also you know, just understanding that um the it goes by quickly, right? Your your kids are young and and and you're trying to keep up, and then all of a sudden, you know, they're they're gone and and it's and it's over. And and you look back on it. And you know, I remember with my own kids feeling just like you, Lee, like like knowing, hey, if you want to be really good, you know, they played soccer, or you know, like you're gonna do more, but I'm not gonna drag you to the kickback wall every day. I'm not gonna force you to do like if you don't want to do it, that's fine. And then my job is just to help you understand when you're like, well, why does he play so much more than me? Well, you know, you remember when you know you went and did this rafting trip in the summer? He stayed and practiced, which is great because that's what he wants to do, but you wanted to go rafting, which is awesome. But you can't, you know, you you can't do that and then expect this, right? And and so, you know, I I just think, you know, as as coaches and as parents, the we we have to be truth tellers as well. That we help our kids on their journey and recognize that, you know, you know, I mean, oftentimes, you know, most of the best athletes are actually late bloomers, right? They're they're not the early burners, right? The ones who shine earliest. Those kids usually fizzle out. It's it's the late bloomers who struggle to keep up because they haven't grown or they're born later in the year and they struggle and they go, but they love the game. And as a the parent, you just keep encouraging them like, look, I can't like give you the magic pill to make you grow, but you can work on your technique, you can be fit, you can have teachable spirit, you can be a great teammate, you can do all these things. And then when you grow and all of a sudden everyone's big, strong, and fast, what's in your toolkit? You know, and and I think that's one of the things. And those are the kids, you know, I know there's been studies on NHL draft picks, and most of them are, you know, the highest, you know, paid higher draft picks come from later in the birth year, even though in junior hockey and and in youth hockey, you know, kids born January, February, March are way overrepresented on the top teams. So, you know, it's it's it's funny. It's really who can play the long game best is the best way to help your kid really achieve in any sport.

SPEAKER_00 49:39

John, it's a fantastic answer too. And and the other thing too is I wanted to focus on the coaches for a minute too. I know we have about like six minutes left, so I want to respect your time, but I I I wanted to get to this question before the end. Um, back in 2020, uh, everyone's favorite year, uh, you wrote a great blog called The Coaches. Great coaches are both firm and flexible. Now I know everybody listening has read something like that, but what stood out to me in the article is the exact things you said. You need to be firm when it comes to choices, strengths, and values, but also be patient when it comes to maturity, experience, and skill level. We've talked about this throughout the show here. Um, but you've had the opportunity to work with a lot of coaches, and I know a lot of coaches listen to this show. So in a couple of minutes, I know we we probably need more time, but what are some of the ways coaches can pursue that type of mentality? And what else do you look for in great coaches?

SPEAKER_02 50:35

I mean, yeah, that that's a big question right there. Right. Um, you know, um, you know, I just got back from Spain. I took my son's U16 team that I coach over there, and they got to work for a week with some really high-level coaches who coached uh, you know, and worked for FC Barcelona uh for many years. And um, you know, I I asked them, and I just sat on the sideline and I watched and I took notes and looked at someone else coaching my team and where it could be, and they were not weren't doing other any activities that weren't similar to ones that I do or whatever, because I'm very into that same sort of methodology. But I asked like the kids, like, what was a big difference? And and they talked about, you know, coach, you ask us to do things and they demand us to do things. So when they're making simple things, simple errors on, you know, in soccer, it's receiving the ball on your, you know, farthest leg from the pass or opening your hips, scanning before you get it, things like that, right? What when you know you you do it, but they stop, do it again, stop, do it again, right? Like demand the right sort of actions and behaviors. And they were very, very firm. But when they were coaching, they were coaching like technical or tactical things. There's never an attack on the human being, never uh you're lazy or you're this or you're that, right? So they were very demanding without being demeaning, right? There was nothing demeaning. Now, some kids don't like that, right? Because they're in a comfort zone of getting away with bad habits. But what was awesome was that these coaches said, no, I'm not gonna let you get away with a bad habit. I'm not gonna let you get away with this. I'm gonna make you better. And I saw kids in five days get significantly better because of that demand to do the right thing, which was a simple thing that the kids were capable of doing, but maybe they exist in an environment where they don't they can get away with not doing it. So, you know, I and then and then I think the other thing is right, if I asked a room full of coaches, and I do this all the time, what are the qualities of your best coach? Right. And they talk about caring, they talk about great communication, they talk about passion, they talk about um making it fun, um organization, things like that, right? And then and then you say, hey, open your coaching manual. Uh, where's all that in this book? It's not in there, right? And so this is the problem in coach education because it's hard to assess, right? It's easy to assess, hey, can you run an organized practice and run this activity and then do this and then do this? That's easy to assess so we can give people a certification by by assessing that. How do we assess, is he making it fun? How do we assess is she um, you know, does she care about her players in an artificial environment like a coaching course? So we skip that and yet go anywhere in any sport and ask what are the qualities of your best coach, the one that you invited to your wedding years later, and has nothing to do with uh, you know, they taught me the you know, the you know, you know, a great, you know, pattern on the power play. I was just trying to think what the hockey equivalent was. Oh, you guys, you know, the 4-3-3, and I and I got lost there. My my limited hockey knowledge popped in. But you know, it's like it's not because of, you know, yes, knowledge of the sport matters, but it's just not sufficient.

SPEAKER_00 53:58

Right. It's it's super fair. And and I think players crave, to your point, discipline, but it's got to be done the right way and not attacking them personally. It's just as you said, this is the right way to do that. Um, or or uh not attacking you, I would like precision with this. Um, John, we only have about a minute left. I just wanted to give a quick shout. I had a whole question about this, but I want to shout out the uh Way of the Champions Conference, which everyone here can learn more about at the Changing the Game project. Just to give you an idea, there's some pretty heavy names at this. Uh, I noticed Phil Jackson, Steve Kerr. Uh, for our audience that doesn't watch anything outside of hockey, that's two of the greatest basketball coaches, actually, two of the greatest coaches in mind in history. Um, uh, we're not gonna go through a rundown, but make sure you check that out. Uh, and John, I also wanted to touch on your new book coming out, uh, The Champion Teammate, um, which is coming out in May. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Um, uh, but I'm sure everyone's gonna run your other books right after this episode, but tell us about the new one. I know we're excited about that. Yeah, cool.

SPEAKER_02 54:55

Well, thanks for the conference shout out, too. This is this will be the seventh year, and we obviously went nothing in 2020 and went virtual for two years and learned a lot doing it that way. And we're like, oh, can we blend the in-person and the virtual? And so we got Phil Jackson to do some stuff and and Steve to do some stuff for us. And then, I mean, because Mike's a lacrosse guy, we have Cindy Timschell, who's the all-time winningest women's lacrosse coach and absolute legend um in in the game, um, is gonna be there live with us, you know, presenting and hanging out all weekend as well. So it's a super cool weekend. So, yeah, so the new book, right? So my first book uh changing the game was, you know, kind of for parents, and it was also for coaches, but about the mentality. And then I wrote Every Moment Matters, which is really a coach-focus book. What are the best coaches in the world do? Um, but you know, I do a lot of team development work with college teams, and I've obviously coached for uh it's getting closer to 30 years now. And you know, we always tell people like, be a great teammate, but we don't teach them that. And so Jerry Lynch and I decided to write this book together on, you know, he's been doing college team development for 40 years, and he's got 39 NCA titles, you know, to his name across a whole slew of sports. So, what does it mean to be a great teammate? And so we wanted to write a book that college teams and high school teams and and you know, middle, you know, I think middle school on up, like so many teams do a book read, and and you know, it's like little two-page chapters of a story of an athlete representing a great quality, a quality of a great teammate, and then discussion questions afterwards. So you can think for yourself, and then as a team, as a coach, right? Let's read a chapter and let's have a discussion around this. And so we broke the book up into like three sections, right? Connection, um, competing, because we want to compete, and then leadership, right? What does great leadership look like? And so it's probably, I think it's like 30 short chapters, um, two to three pages. Once a week, you could take, you know, 10, 15 minutes of practice, read a chapter, talk about the story in the chapter. Um, how does that relate to our team? What do we need to start doing that we're not doing now to do this better? What do we need to stop doing? And and I think it'll just be a great way that we can get human development through our sport um and make people better teammates. Because you know what, like what we wrote in the book, Jacket is our whole life we're going to be part of teams, our family, work, community, church, and sports. And sports are a great way to learn how to be a great teammate. And if you're a great teammate, you will always be in demand.

SPEAKER_00 57:35

I just think that that's fantastic for a multitude of reasons. And and you know, one of them, John, is I'm always telling athletes, Mike and Christy are too, that one of the ways I value you is how you treat your teammates. And a great athlete, great, not good, will raise the ability of his or her teammates as an athlete and as a person. So I applaud you for that because that is a guide we all need. And uh I will be picking that up when it comes out in May. We want you all to as well. It's not a sales push, it's an actual thing.

SPEAKER_01 58:05

Yeah, yeah, and it was that because just the other day, my co-enker here in Syracuse, New York, we we were just so impressed by what our colleagues were able to produce on the air, our newscast, that he he and I wrote a thank you. And the first words were hey team. Way to go, team. You know, that's how we address because we felt like as a team, we're able to do some remarkable work that uh we know our viewers appreciated. So that is so true. You know, that team spirit will carry on in your life in many different avenues of the city.

SPEAKER_02 58:44

And why not learn it when you're 10? Right, 11, right? 12. Why not learn it then?

SPEAKER_01 58:50

Exactly. Well done. I'm so glad you brought that up.

SPEAKER_00 58:54

You have been a fantastic teammate today. We'll stop holding you hostage. I know you have to go.

SPEAKER_02 58:58

Well, well, thank thankfully, I will say, right, like we talk about passion, right? My I have to leave because my son is at the gym and I have to go pick him up and take him to school. And I am not the one who asks him to get up at 6.20 in the morning and go to the gym. He's the one who says, Dad, can we go? So actually, he usually drags me to the gym three days a week.

SPEAKER_01 59:17

Um, yes.

SPEAKER_00 59:19

Yeah, I'll look forward to that in my own life as well. Uh everybody listening, make sure you check out the Changing the Game project. Please watch John's uh TED Talk. I'm begging you to go watch it. 15 minutes of your time, less, right? Less than 15. 14 minutes and check out his Amazon page and his new books coming out. John O'Sullivan, fantastic human being. Uh, you truly are changing the game. And uh, we appreciate you. Thank you for being here today. Thank you all so much. This was super fun. Thank you, buddy. So that's gonna do it for this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Remember, all of the award-winning edition episodes can be found at our kidsplayhockey.com, including this one. Thanks everybody for listening. We'll see you next week. Have a great one. We hope you enjoyed this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or our website, our kidsplayhockey.com. Also, make sure to check out our children's book, When Hockey Stops, and when hockey stops.com. It's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. Thanks so much for listening to this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey, and we'll see you on the next episode.