The Truth About Tryouts And Evaluations

SPEAKER_03 1:23

Hello, hockey friends and families around the world, and welcome back to another edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. I'm Leah Lias with Mike Vinelli. Sherry Hudsmith from Our Girls Play Hockey joins us today because guys, we're talking about something we're not supposed to talk about. It's the tryout. Evals and tryouts are good. Do you guys know something? Do you know something? You know what team your kid's gonna be on next year? Man, is this a contentious, crazy, stupid time of year where we have to talk about what team your kid might make next year? And the three of us are here today to follow your fears, to talk about it, to discuss it, as we always do. This is always an annual episode. It's one of our more popular episodes that we do. But today we are talking about your evaluations and tryouts and the anxiety that you are all feeling right now about what team is my kid gonna make next season. And I'm here to tell you and Mike and Sherry, not so much that it doesn't matter what team your kid makes, but that your kid's probably gonna make a team and you gotta live with it no matter what. Now, let's go around the horn here, guys. Uh, we're gonna talk today about obviously how to prepare for tryouts, best practices literally for you at tryouts, um, how to give yourself obviously the best opportunity to showcase your ability if you're a kid or your parent. And yes, parents, we said you too, because parents, this is also a tryout for you. Believe us, it's also a tryout for you. Um, and then we're also just gonna talk about generally not not not if tryouts matter or not, they do matter, but why we put so much onus on what team your kids make, and I think personally, um, especially in the younger age groups, that's that's a mistake, right? It's all about development and finding a team where your team develops. But let's start out.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

I gotta jump in. Just just just to frame this a little bit, yeah. We're not talking about like the BCHL and the USHL and the you know your junior hockey team, your because I I because I'll I'll I guess I'll just jump in and say like anything like tryouts after 14 different are real tryouts. Uh agreed, 100% agreed. They're real. So I I think I think we're just framing this uh in my mind, you know, under 14 I think that's super fair. Not if you're listening, if you're 16 years old, just tune this out for a little bit and wait for the wait for the final ending. But yeah, but I think you're but if you're but if you're a parent of a of a 12-year-old, a 10-year-old, an eight-year-old, six-year-old, I think this is this is so valuable to hear. Yeah, um, I agree, Mike.

SPEAKER_02 3:51

So that's great.

SPEAKER_03 3:52

I I I appreciate you doing that because you're absolutely correct. Above 15 um becomes a little bit more of a competitive tryout, and you may get cut. Um, it may happen when you're younger too, but let's talk about it for under 14. I think that's good framing. Sherry, you're a coach, Mike's a coach, I'm a coach. We all have to do tryouts and evals this season. What are some of your tips, tricks, and thoughts on being an effective person at a tryout or an eval?

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Yeah, exciting episode, a lot to get into. Um, I think let's start with maybe the night before, right? Getting good rest the night before. And I've seen this too is like kids check your equipment, make sure that everything is in your bag. You got every shin pad, skates, helmet, everything. I've seen kids show up, you know, when they're nine, 10 years old. Mom, I forgot my shin pad and they have to run back. Well, guess who notices that, right? The coaches, the evaluators, where did this kid go? Why are they on the ice two or three minutes late? Is because the parent had to run home. That's that's noticeable, and it's something that I think you can take accountability for very young, is is uh checking your equipment and make sure that you're ready to go, get good sleep, eat good the night before. I know there's probably a lot of nerves. It's gonna be hard to go to sleep, like you're you're excited and nervous, all the nerves that are gonna come into that. So I think it really we can start at how it starts at home.

SPEAKER_03 5:07

Yeah, I I think it's a great suggestion. I I would also say this too. Parents, um, let your kids pack their bag, and then this might be the one time you do a little bit of a double check or you watch them do it. I'm with you on that, Sherry. Kids should have the accountability to pack their bag uh and make sure that they're doing well the night before. You know, it actually brings up this this question. Um, the kind of, and I'm gonna I'm gonna insert these in throughout the episode. I've been asked by questions, well, what do I tell my kids to get them hyped up for a tryout? What do I tell my kids to get them hyped up for you know the eval? And it's like, well, okay, first off, if your kid's not hyped up about hockey, that's a problem. All right. Uh, I have not told my kids they're going to an eval before. This works at the youngest ages. I don't tell my seven, eight-year-old when they were that age, oh, you're going to an eval tomorrow. You need to go all out. You need to be, you might not make the team. I don't do any of that. Parents think I'm crazy. I just say, listen, we're going to uh hockey practice, coaches are gonna be watching you. They're they're looking to pick some teams for next year, just do the best you can. That's what a six, seven, eight, nine, ten-year-old needs to hear. All right. I have also heard parents say, if you want to make the double A team, you have to go out there and you've got to be first in line and you've got to destroy the other kids. And it's like, why are you why are you putting that pressure on your kid at this point? Uh first off, they should be working that hard most of the time. Second of all, don't tell your kid to go to the front of the line every drill, because if they don't know the drill, they're gonna look a schmuck out there. Nothing wrong with being third or fourth in line and learning the drill. That's actually smart. All right, because I'll tell you what, I never picked the kid, guys, because they were first in line ever. I picked them because they were showcasing their talent and their attitude and their skill. So, again, we'll get into that more later. But yes, make sure you have all your gear. And then, Sherry, arriving on time, right? It's not about if they say be there an hour before, when should they be there?

SPEAKER_00 6:59

Uh, an hour and 10 minutes before.

SPEAKER_03 7:01

There you go.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

I I'm big on time. I know, I know a lot of coaches are big on time. Everything runs like it just it you want to develop good habits young. And uh, when you start playing at the triple A level and stuff, you're expected to be at your drylands on time, at your practices on time. And it's tough like when the kids are not able to drive. Obviously, you're 10 and 12 years old. But parents, please be on time. Have the kid themselves come up to the check-in desk to get their jersey, say their name, don't be hovering over the kid. This is this is Bobby, he's here. Like, don't hover over him. Let him let him or her go up on their own, get their jersey, introduce themselves, be polite, uh, make a good first impression. Um, especially if you're going to a new team and no one knows you, right? Like, just little details like that, showing up on time, being polite, it's it's gonna get notice over other kids who, you know, maybe their moms are standing there hovering over them, like, where's my jersey? Oh, he's not that number. Like, just just you know, it's like if you get number 67 and you wear 14, it's a tryout. So, you know, just be thankful what you have, get in line, go find your locker room. Like, if you're there early, you're gonna find your locker room, especially you know, find your locker room, get your stick taped, get your headphones on, get locked in, start thinking about you know what you're there to do and be ready. And coaches are, I think, are gonna, you know, they're gonna notice that this kid's here, he's locked in, he's taping his stick, he's he's uh he's all set and ready to go.

SPEAKER_03 8:24

Yeah, well, I always love that phrase. You get what you get and you don't get upset, especially when it comes to numbers. Uh, another good point on that, Sherry, is that you know, I think sometimes kids come in or parents come in, they're looking for the coaches, looking for the evaluators. You need to be nice to the people at that desk, the managers, the volunteers, um, someone may be watching, but why don't we put together a quick little script for a young kid? Because you know, they might say, I don't know what to say. And I I think the first thing is introducing yourself. Hi, my name is XYZ. And maybe just something like I'm really excited to be here today. I think that could be enough. And then, you know, maybe like um, what do I need to do to sign up? What do you what do you need for me? Do you need my mom or dad for anything? Um, depending on the each that alone, and and then maybe shaking a hand or giving a fist pump, um, just introducing yourself across the way makes a huge difference in this aspect. We're we're talking about off the ice, obviously, right now. We'll get to the on-ice stuff in a minute. But would you guys think that's a pretty simple, simple uh script there? Is there anything else a kid should be saying?

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Uh, I don't know about different markets, but in some markets, maybe having paperwork, right? Like if you're transferring from another organization, make sure you have your paperwork in order. Either you submitted it online or you bring it to the desk. I you know, I don't know about how that works now. Like some some most of it's online if you're transferring.

SPEAKER_03 9:38

So right. Mike, you're you're inconspicuously quiet up there. I can see you bubbling.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

I'm just wondering what I'm just wondering where we are in tryouts here. I mean, where what world are you are you in that you haven't gone through? Like, I don't know. I I'm just I'm I'm uh if you're listening to this right now, you've you've and you're going to a tryout at youth hockey today, and I'll I'll just give the perspective of being in a thousands of tryouts and working right now with hundreds of programs that do tryouts, that the tryout itself is really I I mean I I love the fact that we're preparing the kids for the things that we want to do when you show up, you know, having your equipment, being polite, being look like you're coordinated, you know, look like you, you know, look like you're the one that wants to be there, you know, and and I and I think we want to do that for all our kids. But I think as far as like the tryout goes itself, I think you have to first get through, you know, how many private ID skates have there been, how many pre-tryout tryout dates have there been, how many behind the scenes you know pieces of this, because where we are youth hockey today, yeah, I don't think uh this is my own personal opinion, by the way. I don't think the tryout exists. I just don't, I just don't, I don't see it. It does not exist. That you're going to if you if you're in a youth hockey today on the east coast, northeast, most southern places, you're going to a place that the team has been determined. Mostly determined, yeah, for sure. Mostly determined. There's little pieces you could put in there, but we should be looking for, and I think we've talked about this a number of times. You you you have to be on in the reality that you're just looking to have your son or daughter play in the best environment they can be, correct? And and preparing them for the fact that the tryout is not like the kiss of death. It's not you're not making it or not making it because making a team at the youth level doesn't mean you're the best player or the worst player anymore. It's just you're on the team. I mean, again, I'm I'm coming from a point of view of I I know a lot of organizations say, well, no, no, no. We have, you know, we have private outside people do the evaluations, we have other people coming in, which is called BS, because you're telling me a professional I know the best evaluators in the world right now cannot evaluate a team in a three-hour tryout.

SPEAKER_03 12:02

No, no, you you you said last year, Mike, actually, really well that the evaluation is the whole season, right? You said that in last year.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

Like that's what because we again, if you I could come in in a suit and a tie, and my little eight-year-old could be the most polite kid in the world at the check-in counter, and I know I'm not picking him. I'm like, I don't want this kid on my team because he can't play, but you know, but so or or he doesn't he doesn't he he or she doesn't fit into the mold of my team. I think right, I think what all of us as parents have to do is prepare the our kids for the fact that when you go to a tryout today, like when I went to a tryout when I was a kid, nobody knew who I was, I didn't know the other kids. I showed up in line, I got on the ice, I kicked some ass, and I put you know, knocked a couple of kids out in the corner, and I made a team. I made it because somebody said, Oh my god, who's where who's this kid? Because nobody knew today, in our youth world, everyone knows the kids. You know the kids because they've been at and look what we do too. We uh every organization has a tryout in the same mic. So now you have to get now, like you know, right, Sherry? You're probably in a place where you know somebody says, Oh, uh, hey, my kid can't make your Wednesday tryout, but they can make the Friday already getting those emails. Why can't you make the Wednesday trial because they're over another tryout? They have another thing going on. Well, what is that thing? Well, they're trying out for another team. So why are you trying out for my team? Like, so you know, so don't try out for my team. So I I I don't want to go off track here because it is a I know it's a you're making tremendous points, a tryout episode, but I think to to to to disillusion our our audience and to disillusion ourselves as parents to think that there is really tryouts anymore, it's just not it's just not factual. There are there are evaluations of kids happening in places, but again, the buyer beware. Find a place that wants you, find a place that needs you, find a place that you feel comfortable going to and that has a great coach. Like, don't go to a tryout if you don't know who the coach is, and don't go to a tryout that if you make the team, you don't plan on staying there. Just don't do it because you because you're you're not only you're hurting other kids, but you're just I don't know what you're even telling your son or daughter, like, well, we're gonna go try out because we gotta see what everybody else is doing. If you start to worry about that at six and seven and eight years old, you're doomed. Oh, people do people, I've seen it. No, no, I'm just saying the reality is I know that happens, right? So, but if you're setting yourself up for that, you're doomed to go in to say, Well, I'm only going here to see what the other three kids are doing, right? Right, and you know it's funny, Mike. I'm saying is yeah, pick your program, go to the evaluation. You're gonna get selected for a team, and it's not gonna take your money, by the way. You're gonna get selected for a team, but just make sure you're framing it in a way that's best for your family.

SPEAKER_03 15:05

Well, you're getting to a great point here, and and again, this doesn't negate anything that we said about being professional when you walk.

SPEAKER_02 15:13

That's what they think, right?

SPEAKER_03 15:15

It all still stands, and in a sense that no matter where you're at, that's something you should portray. But Mike, you're you're getting into the crux of the episode now, which is fantastic. You know, I had a tell a quick story. I had a kid in MIT's last year, um, obviously, no names here, who decided to make a uh lateral leap to another club. And I remember he was asking me, Hey, convince me to stay. And I said, That that's not my job to convince you to stay. And you know, oh, it was amazing. It was I was like, You gotta convince me to stay here. I'm like, I'm not convincing you to stay anywhere. And I just asked him, you know, why do you want to go there? Why do you want to do this? And I was just very honest. I said, Look, if that's what you think you want to do, that's fine. I I don't think there's that much of a difference at this age group that that it matters. You know, I and I told him I think I think that the prestigiousness of that program is what's attractive to you. It's just honest. And I got a text halfway through the season, swear to God, it was you were completely right. There's nothing different here, um, there's no extra value here. And it's not that it was a bad program, it's just it didn't matter. It you know what I mean? Again, this is a younger age, it might is is eight you. Um, again, it's different. But Mike, you're bringing up a great point we should absolutely discuss, which is you know, the tryout goes both ways in a lot of ways. You want to find a good fit for you and your family. There's never any guarantees, but good coaching, good environment, good development. It's funny. I don't think those are the primary things people think about when they go to an eval. I think that what they're thinking about is I want to make the top team, and I think that that's a mistake. You want to make the team that is appropriate for your kid. And I'll tell you what, people listening, just so you know, I'm not speaking out of nowhere here. Um, I there have been years when I was in Utah, I made the same team, same letter, back-to-back years. And as a kid, I was somewhat devastated that I didn't make the higher letter because I just assumed that oh, I was on this team last year, I'll be on the better team next year. But thank God I that's not what happened because I developed dramatically by being I was I was picked for the right space, and I was given a role and I grew and it eventually helped me get to a better place in my hockey career. So I think when you walk into an eval, don't tell your kids, please, parents, don't tell your kids something like you deserve to be double A, triple A, A, whatever it is. Don't tell them that. Tell them you deserve a great coach in a great environment. Now, for the organizations, it's on you to provide that as well. I know organizations, and this this pisses me off, that have not announced their coaches for next year, and they may not announce them before the evals of the tryouts. And it's like, man, you're putting yourself at a real detriment to those parents. I want to know who's coaching these teams. I want to know if my kid's gonna be a 10-U player, 12-U player. Um, that there's good coaches across the board. So A, B, triple A, whatever it is, triple B, you know, we we we made up all the different letters here. That no matter where they land, they're gonna have a good coach. That's something organizations need to do. But let's just stay on this for one second, guys.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

And and just the mentality. Just too, Lee. This is I'm not I'm not blaming parents for this either, by the way. I'm blaming I'm blaming the parents.

SPEAKER_03 18:17

I'm just kidding. That's a job.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

Yeah, but I'm blaming all of us. I'm blaming the way organizations develop their programs and and put out their coaching staffs and develop, you know, their their quote unquote tryouts. I'm blaming the parents that are that are looking for the the the uh you know the the greener side of the of the pasture. I'm looking at the the you know the the skills coaches and the private people that are that are advising these kids and these parents. Like it's it's it's a seven it's a systemic issue throughout the whole of youth hockey that we find ourselves in a place where tryout season, which probably started in November, is really just another way to place kids and get around the rules of USA hockey or or wherever your your your ruling body is in your state to select kids. It it is it is it's really unconscionable, actually. It's a it's amazing that we as leaders of hockey continue to allow this to happen. Well, it's old thinking too. Um right, because the the parents really don't have the power. Like you can't just start your own team. Like, so so as many, as many uh like as much as I detest a lot of the way parents react to coaches and how they treat organizations and how they treat internally, you know, how they work with their kid, we're developing these kids and these families to react the way they react because of the way we run our programs. And and I don't know, it's just a it's it's it's it's a it's a holistic view of what do you really want to get out of your the sport? And if getting out of the sport is I just want my kid to have fun, yeah. Really love coming to the rink every day, then start looking for organizations that offer that.

SPEAKER_03 20:01

Well, I think I would I would make the assumption a good portion of our audience feels that way, right? But they still feel the anxieties and the pressures of of these events. You know, it's funny, I can prove your point, Mike. I I made the suggestion last year, and people thought I had two heads. Sherry, you'll like this. I said, you know what? I wish we would do. I wish there was a fall and winter season for club hockey, where sometime around the holidays or right after the holidays, we we shake up the team. So if a kid needs to move up, he moves up. If a kid needs to move down, he moves down. And and you can't do that. No, I said, I know you guys would never allow it to happen because the prestigiousness of whatever letter you're at and the fear of dropping up or down is so overbearing. Even though I can tell you right now, on the teams I've coached, there are kids that would have benefited from dropping down with no ego attached to it, just dropping down to that level so they could learn the game a little bit better. But we can't handle that because of the way that we have highlighted letters in hockey. And and I said, so there's a fall center, a fall season, a winner season. You know, there's also the fear of losing kids between seasons. But I said that would actually be a better development model if coaches would actually talk to each other, but we'll never do it because of where we're at, right? So I think that the shift that we were talking about needs to take place in the kids and the parents of understanding that, yeah, Mike, you made a great point. The two tryouts are not determining your kids' future, it's what they do over the eight-month season, most likely. Now, with that said, look, and this is why I said the rosters are mostly picked. There's absolutely bubble positions on every team. You know, the bottom three players or even top three players are sometimes interchangeable, and you can you can break through at an eval or a tryout or fall down, depending on how you perform. All right, but yeah, I think you're right in that 90% of the team is is essentially chosen, um, and that the the evals are just there to make sure that it's organized and put forward. But evals and tryouts on their own are really a dated idea, Mike. What you were talking about when you were growing up, when I was growing up, sure, you too. I I think these were looked upon differently. It really was a true tryout or a true eval, whereas now it's a it's a formality. Um, I do want to turn a little bit towards actually being on the ice at evals because no matter what we talk about, the evals are gonna happen and tryouts are gonna happen. And I want to make sure that especially if you feel like your kid's one of those bubble players, you understand what you you you have control over on the ice once you get out there. Um, and before before we do that, let's just talk about mentality, like because I think that all come combines together here. You know, those those those kind of precious minutes before the tryout, you know, where everybody's feeling a little bit of nerves. Parents, I would really have a good conversation with your kid to remind them that A, you love being out there. Don't forget that. Like you love being on the ice, it's always exciting to be on the ice. The two and parents, I implore you to say this. I mean, I'm begging you to say it. To tell your kids before an eval that I promise you this will not make them work less hard. That no matter what happens out there, I'm gonna love you. No matter what team you make, I'm gonna love you. That my love for you is not dependent on the team or the letters. Tell your kids that. I promise you, they are not gonna go out there and not try because you said it. All right. I can tell you that if you put the pressure on them to make a team. I mean, you're doing them a major disservice. You're not making them a better competitor. You're you're just instilling fear. I know there's people out there that think that fear can create results. It look, if it's done the right way, it can. That's not the right way in my mind. Okay. Do either of you disagree with that statement? You know, parents, a lot of the pressure comes from you and what you're able to say to them.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

Yeah, I I do. I well, I would agree. I mean, it's it's really just a holistic view of how you look at all of this stuff, right? I mean, if you're if you go through if you're a parent that every single time your kid goes to the rink, you're on the glass, and you're and you're you're like in a in a in a frenzy, that if you're like, okay, I oh, I got 10 hours of video on you this week, and I scattered the other team and look at the other kid. Like if you're that if you're that parent with that kid and that kid is is, and we've interviewed lots of NHL players that had those parents. And if it's and if you're able to survive that, hey, you know what? I that's not my kid. Like, that's you, that's your life. If you're able to do that and be the person in the corner, um great, but overwhelmingly, I think it's the parent that just prepares their kid to go on the ice in a positive way, in an uplifting way, in a in a way where we're inspirational and not, you know, uh putting the fear mongering in them if they don't perform, that they're not having dinner tonight or they're walking home, then then we're then we're accomplishing good goals. And and and really what that does is I'll say this to the parents that have team leaders, like kids that are the best kids, the more you can do that for your child, the better the team is gonna be. Like you're gonna, you're really because uh and I always find this crazy, like that that parents of parents look at the parents that have really good hockey players like that they're better hockey people. It's the oddest thing in the world. Like they're like, oh, that guy's got a really good player, he must really know hockey. I'm like, that's nothing to do with it. Like that's irrelevant. So, you know, to to so when you look, but but again, you can influence that if you want to be a good parent uh to your team, and you want your kid to be a good teammate to their team, then you know, just how you approach all those situations too overall help uh the you know the the the entire ecosystem of the organization.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

We have uh three coaches here, three NHL coaches that have very young sons that are playing here, and they are in the rink sitting watching practice like normal parents. And these coaches, they're parents like everyone else, but they are textbook hockey parents. They sit there, they watch their kids. They don't don't tell the parent, like the coaches, how to coach, even though they are in the NHL, but they sit there very quietly, they enjoy watching their their kids play, and you always see them very positive after the game with with their kids and after the practices. So it's like just chill, like sit and watch the kids banging on the glass and being a crazy lunatic is just gonna draw attention to you that no one's gonna want to deal with you or and it's gonna affect your kid, right? So it's like let the kid go out there and perform and let their performance do the talking, not you yelling at the glass, yelling skate as loud as you can is not gonna help anything. We've all seen it, they can't hear you. Um, but I've just been very fortunate here to see how these NHL coaches as fathers interact and be hockey, normal youth hockey parents. And it's the exact opposite of the people like they a lot of them do have the best kids on the team, but they're just pretty chill. So I think we just need to you know calm down a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 26:49

Yeah, well, and let's talk about for parents you listening, coming your own anxiety. Um, you know, we say this about the games and the practices, but it it's it's the most important during tryouts. Parents, remember you're only watching your kid in an eval, most likely. You're watching every thing microscopically, every drill, every turn, every puck touch. We're not watching that as evaluators, we're not watching your kid the entire time. Okay, so just remember a you're hyper focused on your own kid. We get it, I get it. Okay. I like I when I watch my own kids, I I I scan around, but yeah, my eyes are on my own kids quite a lot. Um, and you know, I can hear the parents' thoughts. Oh, my kid just did this really great thing, but no one was looking. That's gonna happen. That that's why at the tryout, it's an all-the-time thing, or even during the season, not just tryout, it's an all-the-time thing, it's not just at a tryout thing, right? Um, you know, the things that I do look at is, and and we we should probably talk about actually the three of us should talk about kind of how evaluations are done because we're not watching one kid the whole time. I can tell you the first thing I'm looking at, especially below the age of 14, is skating ability. It's my first ranking skating pops right away. Can you skate? Because I'll tell you what, if you even want to qualify for a higher level team, the skating has to be there. And parents, if the skating's not there, guess what? Guess what? It's okay. It's okay. It takes a long time to cook a hockey player. So if your kid's 10 or 12 and their skating's not there yet, you want to get on a team where they're gonna work on that. All right, but the first thing we look at is skating, and I'll tell you right now, I can rank kids one, two, three, four. Um, and everybody does it a little differently based on their skating ability, and then I will evolve my evaluation beyond that. I'll look at the the the ones, and again, everybody does this differently and say, okay, now let's look at puck handling ability, let's look at hockey sense. And you know, I can tell you right now, if you're if you're not a great skater, if I'm a true evaluator, if I'm someone who's doing this right, I need to put you on a team where you're gonna get that that worked on. All right. Um, I don't care how big and tall and hard a slap shot is, I've heard that before. It's such a hard shot. That's great, but if he never gets the puck, uh, you know, let's go around the horn here. Again, what what are you both the things I said about parents only watching their kids, but how we evaluate because it's probably done differently than people think.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

I mean skating pops, but like Mike said, compete, right? Battling. You win your stick battles, you win your skating races, you win your corner battles, uh, that stuff's gonna pop.

SPEAKER_03 29:14

I agree.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

Yeah, I think I think I try to do um so if you're if I'm doing a youth hockey tryout as opposed to like a national camp or a you know higher level camp where you might be maybe see the kids for you know seven, eight, nine hours of ice. Like you're looking at a kid for three hours, you know, total, you know, you really and and fortunately or unfortunately, and this is kind of why I lean towards you know coaches that know the kids rather than them blind evaluators, because uh you look at it, you look you're just looking at a group of kids, and and hopefully they're scrimmaging at some point, like they're actually playing the game of hockey. Because I picked tons of kids that have gone through cones looking like you know Yaram or Yagar out there, yeah, and I'm like how the hell did we pick this kid? Like, how did he get on the ice? Like, because he looked great, right? Because he probably has the best private coach in the morning um that skates him through the you know the deviation, but has no idea that there's another you know, four players on the ice with him. But I think it's like so for me, for me, from the youth hockey perspective, you know, say say you have 30 kids, right? You pick your worst, you pick your best. You know what you you you you just like. My goal is to get every kid a notch, like every kid. I want to see every blue three, every white two, I want to see every kid. I want to make sure I covered the canvas, and then I can now middle it down within that hour to say who's standing out, who's doing bad, who's doing stuff that you're like, you know, again, an eight-year-old, there's no there's no great eight-year-olds. No, they're all running gun. You're like, okay, in this in this particular group, that's my that's my that's my high point, that's my low point. And then I want to kind of figure out where I'm in there. Again, if you're if you're straight out evaluating one through 30, that's the only way to do it, in my opinion. It's like that you have to find a way to you know have a ledger, right? Now, if you have a team, if you're evaluating for a team, I would honestly suggest that that coach is in that room and you're saying, Coach, what is your team looking like to you? Like, do you want the best 15 players? Do you want the best six forwards and and and six D? Do you want the best like how do you want your team made up? I could pick you a team of one through 18, but I might give you five right, you know, five right wingers. Like, what is your so there's so many things that go into a parent looking at an evaluation and and being prepared for that, and we can go over that a little bit later. But um, in this case, as an evaluator, you know, um, if I'm the only one, I want to cover the basis. If I if I'm in there with 15 people, right, you know and then and I think most importantly, and again, this is probably not I don't know if it's a trade secret or not, but we probably should discuss it. Is that you also cover the fact that guys, can anybody tell me is white three actually even here? Because you three have them evaluated. I haven't seen the kid, and somebody'll say, Oh no, there is no white three. Okay, well, good, thank you very much. I just want to make sure that I wasn't evaluating this kid. It's like, you know, Sherry, you probably see this with your summer hockey schools, right? Like you get if you want somebody to do like an evaluation of a kid, you're like, you know, don't give me the hey, gotta work harder, look good, had a great week. Uh, the kid wasn't even here, you know, or you know, just make sure that you're that we're all looking at the at the right numbers and the right kids. And you know, as an and I I personally think it's important that if you're going into a blind evaluation, and you're uh you're a parent of a seven-year-old and an eight-year-old, six-year-old, and you see your kid out there, you know you checked in as blue number three, and he's wearing white number six. You get it, go to the desk and take care of that. Uh, because he's being evaluated as somebody else. Very good point. And again, that's just like those are like those little things where I know a coach might doesn't matter, I'm picking the best kids. I go, well, yeah, but you don't even you just don't even know who the kid is, and I just paid 75 bucks. So tell me, you know, just again, those little things there that when you do have to intervene as a parent, those are probably the times to do it. Um, yeah. But I think as an evaluator, most of the time what's happening is you have your list in front of you, you're marking off the the, you know, like say say you say your evaluation is a one through a three, your one being the best, your three being the worst, doing your ones, you're doing your threes, you're doing your bubble kids in the middle, and then hopefully you're having a discussion at some point saying, Well, what does this team actually look like?

SPEAKER_03 33:29

Well, that's how it's done. I mean, look, parents, that's how it's done. 90% of each roster is picked, and we got our bubble players, and we have to decide. And and I wouldn't call them trades, but but what I'm saying is what ends up happening is you start asking about development, where is this kid going to develop correctly? And I'll give you a great example, and this is a little bit of a trick question, right? Your kid has the choice of being the bottom two defensemen, bottom six, or the top three on a lower team. Where do you go? It's a paradox because I haven't given you enough information to answer that question yet, right? Right, and this is where parents get lost. Well, I would definitely go here. I have not given you enough information to answer that question yet. I need to know where did that kid play last year? What are they aspiring to do? Right? Do they need some leadership experience as a top D, or do they need to learn from other D as a bottom six? You have to be really clear on that. Um, coaches need to be really clear on that. I always say there's there's like two types of seasons for me in youth hockey. There's the confidence building seasons, where you're the top player, you're the top dog, you're out there, you're on the power play, you're special teams, you're the top D, you're making the big plays. And then there's the development growing seasons, all seasons of development, where you're not the top dog, you're at the bottom of the lineup, and you're learning from the top of the lineup. I can't tell you which one of those places your kid needs to be in, right? But that's that's part of the conversation I think you need to be having, right? Of where is the best place for me development to develop? It's not good for a kid to always be bottom six, and it's definitely not good. Parents think about this, it's definitely not good for your kid to always be top six.

SPEAKER_01 35:10

And I think at youth hockey, too. It's that, and this is why when you said earlier about um, you know, naming your coaches, it's so important for an organization to define who's working with the kids because you might look and say, Yeah, that coach is great, but that coach is a great recruiter of talent, right? Not a great, not a great developer of talent, right? So, do I want to be on the team with the recruiter of talent, which is going to out-recruit my kid anyway? Like my job as the the top dog in the organization is to is to out-recruit my team. That's my job, right? My job is to have a team, and then all year I'm looking at other kids, other teams we play, and trying to get their kids to come to my organization to get rid of the crappy kids I picked in the first place. So, how do I, how do I, you know, but so what do I look at as a as a parent? Well, it tell me that the second coach, the second team my kid's getting placed on, the you know, let's call it the lower team, has a better coach, has a better feel for the kids.

SPEAKER_03 36:06

Hopefully they do. Hopefully they do.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

And and but again, that's why it's so important. And we could talk about like the buyer beware piece of tryouts, and we've talked about this too on our episodes a lot, is that when you're looking at an organization in the first place, just you're looking at the organization, you got to make sure you go through that checklist of what that organization offers you. Uh, because it's not all about just playing for the best team, it's about you playing for the best situation, you know, for your player.

SPEAKER_03 36:31

Right. Mike, these are tremendous points that that you're making. And again, you know, I think with parents and organizations, you gotta name your coaches. You got to name your coaches because here's the deal, too, is especially when you get to the older side of what we're talking about with the you know, the 14U. Um, that's when parents, you have to like this, but that's when like winning kind of starts to matter. I mean, it doesn't really matter, but what I'm saying is when you get to 14, you want to teach the kids at that age how to compete and win big games. People are gonna rip my head off. Well, they should know that in 12 years. They it's a process, right? Like if you just throw your kid on the top 14 U team and they don't know how to operate under pressure, that's part of the learning, right? And and that's part of the different or uh situations, right? So, again, it's all development, everything's development. It's what are the things your kid needs to develop at? Is it skills? Is it mental? Is it IQ? You want to fall into the right place for that, right? You I wouldn't want to put, and this happens every year. It's like I don't want to put a super talented kid in a position where they need to have hockey IQ and they don't when I could have taught them that on a different team. Now, that that doesn't mean that the kid can't learn that on the higher team, but it's like you the it's such a complicated calculus.

SPEAKER_01 37:49

But Lee, there are so there are some parents, believe it or not, there are some people out there that just want their kids to love hockey. I know they don't care about developing, like they don't, they don't care, they don't like it.

SPEAKER_03 37:58

Oh, you mean it that way?

SPEAKER_01 37:59

No, I'm not one of them. No, what I mean is there's a huge, there's a huge swath of our of our world, and Sherry, you can speak to this probably the best because you're coming from the NHL side of what the what the mission is for the NHL and USA hockey and hockey canada and youth hockey, it's not to develop the best players, it's develop the most players, it's to give the most opportunity for kids to play. If there's nothing in the mission statement that says we're gonna develop you into a world-class athlete, that's there's there's room for that, there's plenty of organizations for that.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

But the NHL Hockey Canada, USA hockey, obviously we care about numbers, growing the game, getting as many kids into hockey as possible. Um, like for example, if junior nights go to a tournament and they win, no one in the front office is asking how the 12U team did, how did they what was the score of that game? Like they care that we are icing teams. We're icing more teams every single year, or icing girls' teams, boys' teams, um, special needs teams, everything like everyone can play. And I think that's obviously the goal from this side of it, is not the actual wins and losses. In, I mean, I'm in the NHL, I played college, everything like that. I can never tell you what a score of a game was when I was 12 years old, right? But I can tell you like I played with all these girls and I'm friends with them for life, and now you know, you know, there's a lot more that goes into it from a bigger picture, not just this narrow window of like we have to beat Bell Tire tonight, or so are my hockey rankings go up, and like the bigger picture doesn't care about that. We care about obviously growing the game and getting as many people into the game as possible.

SPEAKER_01 39:42

Now I fall from the side, I probably fall closer to Lee, right? Where I think I think development is fun. Like, so I look at it. Let's look at that development getting better and winning is the fun part. But I love that.

SPEAKER_00 39:52

I love that. I love winning. Like, I'm not going to tournament for no reason. I'm not, I'm not there for fresh air, I'm there to win.

SPEAKER_03 40:01

I want to say this real quick. The three of us are and again for our audience. Don't ever mistake our kindness for weakness, don't ever mistake what we're talking about. We want to win games, okay? Like, we coach to win games. That's just not our only priority. Oh, yeah, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 40:18

Listen, I'm my you know, if I'm watching my son play dev hockey, I'm stewing if he didn't lose the one-on-one. I'm like, what the hell? You know, what is wrong with you? But I mean, but it but it's just but but the but I said the overall, but the overall mission, and again, getting back to tryouts and and and and wanting to be on a team, the mission is wanting to see your child love coming to the arena and love developing, love competing, love learn and learning new things and being with new teammates and being with new families. That again, the hockey world is so unique too, because uh you know, unless you're from Minnesota or you know, uh, you know, Rochester, New York, you're not you're in a community of massive uh amounts of communities. Like you're just you're drawing kids, you're not running into a kid at Stoppin' Shop, you know, that you play hockey with because you're probably not even in the same town. Like, so hockey's so unique that it's it's it's so important that that piece of your life is is better because it's unique.

SPEAKER_03 41:22

I gotta say this too. I don't like to look too far ahead from wherever my kids are at. If they're 11, they're 11. But parents, I promise you, I promise you, there is no future for them in this game if they don't love the game. All right, there's just no future, it doesn't happen. If parents, do yourself a favor and look at the burnout rate of 15. It's astounding how many kids quit this game at 15 because of the pressure. All right. The kids who stick around, most of them love this game ridiculously. And we say it all the time on the show. You can't create that, you can only cultivate that. All right. And again, if you're listening to the show, you do that. All right. I want my children to love this game. I think the the the greatest feeling that I get is when they share that with me of I just love playing. Man, does that feel better than any championship I think I've ever won. All right. When I can see it. Um, you know, my my son said something to me that really caught me off guard the other day. I think this is a testament to his team, was that you know, we we were in a position in the playoffs where we knew we weren't going to advance and we had we lost this overtime game. And this this comes back to tryouts, follow me. Um and he I thought he was upset that he lost an overtime. He's a goalie, right? It's tough for goalies, and he was upset. He said, Yeah, no, I I I I'm upset we lost, but he goes, Like, I'm really upset because the season's coming to an end, I don't want this to end. And while it was kind of a somber moment, I said, Man, that is the maybe the best thing he could be saying to me right now. Like, he wants to keep going. Kid played 45 plus games this year in net, he wants to keep going. And he kind of said something like, I really can't like I'm looking forward to getting on the ice for for like the evals, like getting back out there just to to be with my friends again, man. Again, look, I I wish that for everybody, I do, but as a parent, you know how comforting that is for me for my kid to be like, Oh, I can't wait to get back out there and play again. You know, parents, I'll tell you this too that your kids. This is a cool part of this episode, too. Your kids are naturally going to put pressure on themselves at tryouts, they're gonna do it no matter what, no matter how calm we could be. I could be a Hindu cow, and my kids are still gonna feel something at evals because it's an e-val, it's a tryout, it's the way we frame it, right? So you don't need to put any more onus on them. Here, here's one for both of you. I've got parents that come up to me and say, I, you know, it's this eval, and I just don't think that they're motivated. Well, you gotta dive into that a little bit more than just telling me that, right? Why is your kid not motivated? Have you had that conversation? Like, why are you not motivated? First off, this is gonna sound weird. It's okay if they're not motivated, right? That's just not where they're at yet. It might not be okay for the eval, but like we're talking about them as a human being here, right? If they're not motivated, you need to have a conversation about why are you here? Why do you want to be here, right? Don't put more pressure on the kid, they're doing it already. In fact, sometimes the kids who show up to evals um just competitive but free, they do the best, right? So, you know, there's a lot of different directions we could go from there. The point I'm trying to make is that you know, I I I'm pretty confident at this point. I gotta iterate that. My kids seem to love this game, it's a very comfortable place to be. All right. As they get older, that may change, and you gotta be okay with that. And that that brings me, I think, to the point I'm trying to make here, guys, which is that stop looking beyond where your kids are at. Right? I I've if they don't make this team this year, that means that that is complete bullshit. I'll say it just like that. There is no path. I know people have played on more B teams and A teams. Chris Terry and former NHL said he didn't play at all the year he was 15. He didn't play one game for a year. Guy made the NHL. There's no path. The path is be present with your kid in an eval or tryout and let them go out there and experience it, knowing everything. That we said is true about the full season, right? Again, I don't know where we want to go from there, but I uh you know that was a comforting moment for me if I want to get back out there.

SPEAKER_01 45:25

And that's the goal, right, for all of us as as the end of the year approaches and our and our tryouts start and our evaluations are being posted. That all the kids want to be back there, like yeah, they want to come. And and maybe and maybe and maybe that player is not at your evaluation. You could reflect on that as a coach, and you could say, I wonder why that player is want to come back here. But do they want to come back? Are they not quitting hockey? Then, you know, let's chalk it up to I can't do anything, I can't do anything about like the politicalness of it, I can't do anything about the recruiting, I can't do anything about the thinking that the grass is greener over here. I can only do something about the kids I have. Like you're like we were saying earlier about the one player and the one family. It's well, listen, I'd love to come back, but give me a reason to come back.

SPEAKER_03 46:08

Convince me to stay. That's what I say.

SPEAKER_01 46:10

I mean, uh, you know, I'm I'm putting, but again, this is where the onus has to go back on the organization about being as transparent as possible and really being upfront about what you do. And I I would even go so far as to say, be upfront about how those evaluations work. That's even you could say, listen, this is why we have this is our head coach, this is our assistant coach, who by the way is a parent and his son's going to be on the team. Like this parent's kid's not going to be on the B team and he's not going to coach the A team. This is just the reality of youth hockey. Is that if you want to spend $24,000 more as an organization for this one team, sure, we'll go get a pro coach. But just the reality is these two parents are coaching our team. Their kids are going to play on the team. It has nothing to do with whether they're good or bad. It's like, well, this is just how youth hockey works, guys. Like, I need like, unless you want to pay again, you want to pay you know $4,500 more a kid. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, we'll get a good coach. But the fact, but the fact is, this is how the youth hockey world works in real in real youth hockey world. I'm not talking about this other stuff, right? That goes on. I'm just talking about for the for the 90% of us, you go to a place, it's probably a mom or dad coaching, there's probably another mom or dad coaching, there's probably a skills coach that does some work with this, there's probably a goalie guy or girl that helps out every now and then in practice, is not exclusive to your kid. But ask these questions and look and say, okay, well, we know the environment, it's presented right there to us, and now I'm the consumer, I'm gonna hold this place accountable. Here's here's my here's one thing I'll say about trials. If you go to a tryout to a team that costs more than I'm gonna say $2,500. I think that's a lot of places around the country. If your team, if your travel team costs more than $2,500 to play on, you should demand that information. Yeah, you should say, I want to know who the coaches are, how many times we get on the ice, what the off-ice situation looks like. Now, again, $2,500 is not a lot. I mean, uh, in the East Coast, it's $13,000. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 48:15

Yeah, that's really true.

SPEAKER_01 48:16

You know, I'm just saying $2,500 is the lowest bar I can give you. Like it's not wreck hockey at that point. It's not like everybody gets a jersey and you play. Yeah, it's you know, and I'm so I'm saying if that and then what the other thing I would demand about that tryout is if you truly go to a tryout that costs, let's just make believe it's uh I don't know, let's just say it's over a hundred dollars for a tryout, two days, three days, over a hundred dollars. You should be demanding an actual an evaluation back to you. That's a great point. That's why you did not make the team. Now, 90% of your organizations won't do this, but you should demand it. If you're gonna tell me that uh you're coming to my team to try out because I have the best coaches, the best evaluators, I know how to develop talent, I know how to pick talent, I know how to find talent. Then you show me I'm a consumer, I paid you. Show me that you know that. Don't tell me how come my kid didn't make the team. They just gotta work harder, they gotta be no shit, yeah. I get it, but I guess they'll come up with some excuse that well, that's a lot of work, that's too hard, I got too many kids. That's all BS. It's you see the kids. If you have 10 evaluators there looking at the kids, you can't you tell me you can't have three bullet points on why a kid made a team or didn't make a team. Again, this is not wreck hockey, this is not talent hockey.

SPEAKER_03 49:36

I think this is completely fair. And in fact, again, Mike, you're you're saying it like it's gonna be this contentious thing. And to me, it's well, I think it is.

SPEAKER_01 49:44

I I number well, 100%. I think it is.

SPEAKER_03 49:46

Well, no, no, no. So sorry, let it I agree with you. What I'm saying is that you're presenting it that way, and that's what it becomes, and it shouldn't be. Like you should want that feedback, and you don't have to agree with the feedback, but you should want the feedback.

SPEAKER_01 49:57

Well, yeah, so so I guess I'll preface that by saying when I did this for my organizations, I'll I'll have you know, Sherry Hud Smith comes in, she tries out, Mike, you're the the reason we're here is we love you, we think this organization is great. We think you we've seen what you've done with these players, it's unbelievable what you've done with these kids. And then I cut Sherry's kid. Guess what happens?

SPEAKER_03 50:17

You're the worst coach in the history of coaching.

SPEAKER_01 50:18

You're an idiot. You guys don't know what you're doing here. You can't even evaluate talent.

SPEAKER_00 50:22

I'm like, online, online. Yeah, flame up, flame up, it's not even to your face, it's on a blog.

SPEAKER_01 50:28

But but I think we're they even have blogs anymore, but it's on a DM to the organization's president.

SPEAKER_03 50:34

Well, but I'm a two-way road here.

SPEAKER_01 50:35

Like, what I'm saying is you came you came to me because of what you felt I could do. That's that's what you need to do.

SPEAKER_03 50:44

Well, uh, I'm gonna say it's a two-way road. Like parents sometimes mistreat coaches, and that's why coaches don't want to talk. Sherry, you're cut, not cut from the show, but you're cut from the team. Yeah, I would pick you just coming for like just for your attitude. I want Mike off the show. I want Mike off the show.

SPEAKER_01 51:01

Trust me, trust me. That is you're not the only one. But I think I think it's I think there's I think there's a I think there's a uh you know a level of arrogance from youth hockey organizations that come in that claim that they know everything, and I'm probably a little more sensitive to that because I gotta sit next to a plumber, uh, an electrician, and an architect telling me about what I should know about hockey. Right. I've never questioned somebody's architectural skills or plumbing skills. Well, at least in public, not to them. Like, you really shouldn't, you know, you should really have a better, you know, catch basin here for this drain. You know, it's not really the pitch is wrong. Mike, I've been doing this for 45 years. Yeah, no shit. So have I. So just be just be in a place where go. If you're gonna go to an organization, you're gonna go try out, you are the consumer. Ask for this information. Yeah, it's a red flag to me. If somebody says, We just picked the best kids. Okay, well, how? What's your criteria? What is who is doing your evaluating? Yeah, is it like a secret room in the in the upper annals on the rink? Like, who is doing the evaluation?

SPEAKER_03 52:06

And Mike, I think a lot of parents would say, like, how am I even supposed to ask that? Because the second I ask that, it looks like I'm uppity.

SPEAKER_01 52:11

And then I you know, again, but if 18 parents ask that, then then it's then then it's not.

SPEAKER_03 52:16

Yeah, well, and this is where like it takes a village, right? And this is where the the disconnection I think is in youth hockey a lot of times. Coaches, uh organizations, you really should be providing this information or some sort of framework for how this works. And yes, you're gonna get complaints and you're gonna get people that say my kid should have made it, but I still think better communication creates better results across the board. It's not gonna be perfect. Also, here's one, Mike. I gotta say it. And you know, parents don't run with this beyond what I'm saying. Coaches make mistakes too. We make mistakes, it happens, okay? And and we all have to live with it. It's not every time your kid doesn't get picked for the team they want to be on. We made a mistake, all the time.

SPEAKER_01 52:56

It's like it's like you know, I will I saw your kid for an hour. How you made a mistake. You can't cut Sherry Mike. You made a mistake. You're right, you're probably you're you know what you might be right, but I've seen your kid for an hour. Like you made a mistake by coming to this trial. You should have came to the pre-ID skate that I had.

SPEAKER_03 53:13

Six, all eight of them. Um, but no, you're making a great point here about this stuff. And it it's again, you know, I think another thing I want to talk about before we end this, too, is this no matter what team your kid makes, the messaging after uh sets the tone for the entire season. So let's let's start with the negative first, which is I can't believe you made this team, you should have been on that team. By far, the worst thing you can tell your kid is that because you have just set up a year of this kid now saying, I should have been on that team. I should have they are not gonna be focused on what they need to be focused on. That's not gonna motivate them. Trust me, the motivation comes from okay, hey, son, daughter, I know it hurts that you didn't make the team that you wanted to make. I can understand that. What are we gonna do this season to improve to a point you can make that team potentially in the future? There's no guarantees. That's the focus your kids need to have. What can you do with the time you have and the team you have to get better? I don't care how good or bad that team is. All right, because this comes down to your kids' individual uh work ethic, right? On that one, before I get to the other one, any disagreement on that or any any agreement on that, too, I should say.

SPEAKER_01 54:26

Yeah, well, I mean, I I love it. I think it's you're right. Um, I think it's uh I think it's that that that's a really crucial time in like setting the stage for the next part. You might not like it, like you didn't make it. Okay, okay, take take a deep breath. Acknowledge it, yeah. And think about the fact that okay, what does that even mean you didn't make it? I had these two Yahoos make, you know, pick the team. So it doesn't matter what they thought, it matters what I can do as an athlete. Like, because I've seen organizations where the kid, the kid didn't come to two tryouts out of the three because they had lacrosse tryouts, right? And they didn't make it, but they're the best kid on the ice. And the organization says, This is our rule, you got to come to all three tryouts, or you make the B team. Okay, well, but I knew that going in, so then you have to, and it's and it is, and I'm not saying it's right or wrong, or or what it just is what it is. If that organization laid that out there, that you have to be at all three tryouts or you can't make the top team, then that's fine. Then just you knew that going in. You you wrote the check. No special treatment, yeah. So, but if it's if there's ambiguity there, now the the key is my kid didn't make the top team. Okay, but what you just said is now this is the time where you really have to buckle down as a dad or a mom and be like, yeah, like embrace the fact that that happened, go in the black back room and scream into a pillow, that's fine, but just understand that everything you're gonna do now sets that person up for walking into that other locker room, and they have to believe that they can leave the locker room and be in a locker room and be and be a cohesive piece of that team, yeah, not the leftover kid that got screwed.

SPEAKER_03 56:09

Well, I want to say this too. Parents, you gotta remember this there's two things here that are funny the the pain your kids feeling. I know you feel too. I can acknowledge that. Like when your kids hurt, you hurt. Then you gotta reverse this a little bit and think back to when you were a kid. Did you recognize that your parents were feeling the same pain as you? Probably not, right? So I think sometimes today with parents, it's like, let me be a friend and let me let me like be you should have made that team. And no, you gotta lead here, that you gotta be a parent here. It's hard, it hurts, it hurts when your kid doesn't make that team. It it's painful, all right. But this is where you got to teach them accountability, this is where you got to teach them, yes, you are feeling a raw, horrible emotion. And I acknowledge that, you acknowledge that. What are we going to do from here?

SPEAKER_01 56:57

That's the question that needs to be asked, and you know, and if it's a real tryout, if it's a real tryout, if you went there and you knew you worked your butt off and you didn't make a team, and you could really look and say, Well, I got you know, I got the short end of this this the the stick here. Like, I didn't make a team, I think I should have. That is for so many athletes, that is such great fuel. Like, that is like that's the piece where as you get older and you are driving your development, and you are driving, you know, whether or not you quote unquote make it, it's all your fuel. It's a way for somebody to say, I love the fact. I mean, if you listen to like great people like a Tom Brady, and you you know you listen to how these people went through certain you know adversity in their lives, and you hear that like like mom and dad can't help have that happen for you. Like my my displeasure with my kid's placement can't sol can't get him to be have a displeasure about it. Like, I I can't inject that emotion into them. That's a great point. But to me, it's like what if you find that if you find a kid that is like devastated from a lot from from losing a spot on a team and then sees them get up the next morning ripping pucks in the driveway, yeah. You got something, you got something take that and and foster that and and and really just say and adversely, if they're not doing that, that's okay too. But it's okay, but it but it gives you it gives you a lot more context about how much it was.

SPEAKER_03 58:30

Well, this is where we say set realistic expectations, but yeah, look, look, the teams I didn't make were by far the catalyst that got me where I was in the game, but you know, because I was hungry, I wanted it, and I was upset. Um, and and I think I feel like getting the right messages is the most important thing. I think it would have been a waste of time for me to say should have been there all year, I should have been on that team, I should be on that team. Such a waste of time. What are you gonna do with what happened? What are you gonna do now? All right, well, I mean like that. That's uh you know, here's the other thing, too. A common thought or parents like little red flags for your kids. Well, this whole year's been a waste. Don't let them get away with saying that to you. No, it hasn't. You put a lot of time in, you put a lot of work in. I know you didn't get where you wanted to be. It has not been a waste. I see this after teams, only one team wins, only one team wins a championship, okay? For the most part. Only one team is gonna do it. The odds are never in your favor. We didn't win this whole year was a waste. No, it wasn't. All right, you developed, you got better. You gotta find out.

SPEAKER_01 59:27

The Vegas Golden Knights actually had that story.

SPEAKER_03 59:30

Right, they did, right? They did. You want to expunge upon that? We have someone from the Vegas Golden Knights here today, but in the world.

SPEAKER_00 59:36

No, that's that's the season I started here, where we didn't make, you know, are you talking about where we didn't make it and then next year like came back and won? Yeah, right. It's amazing, right? But it didn't go unnoticed that we did not make it like throughout the office, throughout the hockey operations. It's it fueled us as like we're gonna have yeah, much better season. And turns out we did stuck with it, and look where you remind us who you beat in the final, uh, Florida. Nine to three.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:01

Who won the final the next year? Florida. Yeah, yeah. Philadelphia Eagles had a 10-game collapse at the end of their season. What'd they do the next year? They won the Super Bowl. Go burn. Sorry, guys, it's a homer thing for me. Look, the point is this nothing's a waste unless you want it to be. All right, the other side of this, I teased it. What's the other side? You didn't make the team you want to make, you should have been on that team. That's the that's the negative. So the positive side, sometimes worse, is you do make the team that you want to make. You make the triple A team, you make the you're where you deserve to be. Horrible thing to tell your kid. Horrible thing to tell your kid. You know what I tell kids when they make the top team? Number one, congratulations. Great job. You know, you you've made this team. Now the work begins. That is my message to kids to make the top team. If if you're just here for the letters, I made a mistake. I made a big mistake. If you're here to work, you're in the right place. Uh, one of the moments I'm so proud of, and I'm I look, this our kids play hockey. I'm gonna talk about one of my kids, all right? Um, that's my that's my best experience. Um, my son told me at the end of last season he was on a B team. He says, I want to make an A team next year, all right? Excuse me. We had a great conversation about that, about what it would take and kind of what he needs to do and and and work hard. And this was during the season, right? This was not at tryouts, Mike. To your point, it's you got to put the time in this season. And uh he worked really hard and he did stuff at home on his own. I didn't force him to do anything. Um, and he was selected for the double-A team, and I told him after that he was really proud of himself, and I was proud of him too. I said, That's great. Now the work begins. Now you must show that you belong at this level. I'm glad you made it. Now you have to show that you belong. And then you know what's cool? Excuse me, this is a cool story, too. Talk about how tryouts run the entire year. Um, I'd say three quarters of the way through the season, he hit a little bit of a mental lull where he wasn't playing bad, but I didn't see the fire, right? It's a long season, and he actually came to me and said, How do I get the you know the fire back? And I kind of told him, like, well, buddy, like that's not something I can give you, that you gotta find that. And the way we we had this discussion was like, Well, if the playoffs are coming, I think you've proven everybody that you belong at this level. Now you got to prove you can belong at a playoff level, and for whatever reason, that reignited him. It gave him a path of oh, I gotta play even harder now. And he took it upon himself. This isn't because of me, he did this. He took the information and he raised his game. It's the whole year. Now he's moving up to a higher age level. We have not even talked about what team he might make because I honestly don't care. I really don't care. All right. I uh you know, yeah, I want him to make a team where that's competitive. He'll make the team he makes and he'll get the experience. It's a new age level. All right. People think I'm joking when I say that. I I mean at this at this point of his hockey journey, I will care when he's older, Mike, to your point. Okay, just make a team and go play hard for that team. Okay? Oh, I'm gonna cough, so I'm mute myself.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:09

But that's all about, you know, I get I think that's where at the beginning here, you know, I get I get so you know, jaded and bitter about like the youth hockey environment right now that we're setting our kids up for because we're just not giving them those opportunities for growth. Like there is no there is no made the B team, made the A team, made the B team, made the A team, made the A team and faltered off and made the B team, like or the second team. Like, because now you're just like I don't make the A team, I leave and I go to the next team. Yeah, I go to another organization, it's tough to me. And and and it happens more often than not, and we allow it to happen as organizations, but I think uh you know, and as parents, we think that you know, because and again, I think it's because a lot of organizations don't define their path of development, and why it doesn't matter, but how even if your son or daughter makes the quote unquote second team, we have a system in place to help them become the best athlete they can be in the time frame that they're in and at their a timeline that they're on.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:09

What you just said, I think is pretty prolific, and I think more organizations should put this up on a wall at a rank, our path to development. Just show it right, and it doesn't have to be you know, B A double A, triple A, whatever. What is the path to development? Put it on the wall, whatever that is for your organization.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:27

It might be different, it's recruiting out recruiting everyone, then write that. We out recruit everyone.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:35

No, we do have we do have that here, like it's a big triangle that shows you like your your path to development all the way. Um, my dinosaur thought on this is I would love to see triouts instead of being 48 hours after nationals, make them two months after nationals. It's crazy, it's crazy for real, because so you have these kids that are like A B A Triple A, like you want to do that. Like, if if the kid decides, yeah, we I want to work to make the triple A team, instead of having to start working on that in September, is take the summer to like put a little bit of weight on, get a get a skating coach, great point. Give them that summer to try to get better and to make the team. But 48 hours after nationals, it's like we're going, sorry, and this organization's going and we have to go because they're going. And then there's just all this FOMO amongst organizations, but it's not what's best for kids' development. Kids' development, give them a little time off, let them get coaches, work on it, like, and then work to make a team in two months instead of 48 hours later because you're not any different 48 hours later.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:33

Yeah, well, yeah. So my in my real world, in my real world, with advising youth hockey organizations, my go-to, my number one piece of advice, and and and unfortunately, not many people take it, but if if my number one piece of advice is if you're gonna pick a 10 U team, then you need to offer that player, that family, the opportunity to be with you for six years. Six years. I'm picking you, I'm developing you. Now, I don't know, like Lee was talking about, I don't know where you are in the in the scale of the the team you're gonna be on, but within our group, our 10U group, and again, I'm a big major minor fan. I I believe that age-appropriate teams are the way to go. I think I think it's better for so many reasons. You could DM me if you want to know all those reasons, but there's there's many, many more reasons to do major minor than than than A B and the I I agree with you on this mic.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:27

I wish more people would do it. I wish I wish USA hockey would take a stance on that.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:32

Can yeah, growing up it was major minor, Adam, Pee-We, all that for boys hockey.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:37

Right, and I think it's just so healthy for a lot of reasons, and and and in in our developmental uh in our development path, it's better. But I think if organizations, if I was a if I'm an organization and I knew that the kids I pick today, I had to actually develop, like I had to get them better, I would do so much more to get them better. Like I go to a lot less tournaments, I have a lot more skill sessions, I'd have a lot more fun times with my kids, I'd have a lot more embracing families and building families and building culture and and creating an atmosphere that kids want to be here. And I like like to me, if you have an eight you program and it's not a Carnival, then I just don't then I think you're just a team that puts kids together, tries to win games, and moves on. Like it should be an experience that we are competing with the the the the kids that want to be, you know, have all this energy and all this talent and all this opportunity for growth. And then what do we do? We put them in a car, we put them on a plane, we put them in pro uniforms, we ask them to perform pro-level stuff, and we forget the fact that we're we're in a in a world of fun and development and that that carnival access. And and I think, but but more organizations were tasked with the fact that by the way, you're such a great evaluator, you're picking this kid, and they're with you for the next six years. And and and the and the fact is that is why Europe does such a good job. That's why other countries do such a good job because they don't even implicitly say that, that's just the way it is, because they're that they're stuck, that you're being you're between two fjords and you can't go to the other place, you know. Like I'm stuck here, like I gotta play here. So so I think the if you're a really if you want to if you want to set the standard, set up a team and say, I'm picking you, I'm gonna develop you. Now, that's not to say you might be on a the A team, the B team, the C team, you're just on the 10U program. But if more organizations looked at the holistic view of how do I have 98 you kids and not 12, then they would look at it as a place that an eight you kid is an eight you kid is an eight you kid. And if you could do that and create that atmosphere, um, I was with I was with a group of nine-year-olds the other day in a locker room listening, you know, getting dressed, and the parents are getting them skates on. I was just getting dressed as a coach, and I'm overhearing the kids say, Oh, you didn't make that team. Oh, I'm on that team. And I'm like, You're all nine, like you're like you're like you're you're all nine. And guess what? I'm looking at this kid over here with the mom and dad that are both like 6'3, 220. And I'm like, that kid's gonna in 10 years, that kid's gonna kick your ass. Like, like I wouldn't say anything about that kid because he's gonna be a monster. I know we can't tie his skates yet, but he's going to be like, I'm picking that kid. So just be careful as an organization, how you pick, when you pick. And as a parent going to tryouts, don't get hung up on the stuff that you can't control because you can't control it, unless, of course, you're you're in a leadership position and say, I'm I'm gonna just pick my team prior to coming here. But be trans. Listen, I I think teams should just be transparent about that. I picked my 12 kids. If you come to this tryout, I only need three of you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:46

Like I I actually wish teams would do that. Uh, you know, they won't, unfortunately, but I think that at least that gives you a better uh, you know, idea of where you're gonna land, what you can do, what you what what it takes, and then actually afterwards it gives you an idea of what you need to work on. Now, I think what we're gonna have to do to close this episode is we're all gonna have to make our own teams, Mike, with the the Benelli rules. We'll have the the Mike Benelli Barracudas, the the Sherry Silverblades, and the Elias Alliance, and we'll compete against each other and we'll have teams for six years under all the parameters that we've just said.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:17

Will anybody find I I could guarantee you I'll out recruit you because I have more parents that have more money. Um, that can I I can I can offer so much more. I can offer flights.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:27

That's great.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:28

Sherry has access to an NHL rank, so yeah, Sherry's in the NHL, man.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:32

Like, come on. Sherry, Sherry's big on culture.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:34

Yeah, I'm so big on culture, and I just I want I just want to touch on this. It's like a just an interesting little story. Is our the kids when they play tournaments, right? They play five, six games in a weekend, and we have to fly, and it's like a lot on a kid, especially like nine, ten years old. We're playing full iced tournaments, five games over two, three days. So I always do when we come back, win or lose, I do a fun practice, and the whole practice for an hour is games, right? They're still like skating involved, like a lot of it is almost a hidden bag, but it's like um they're still getting the stuff done. But those practices I've found where parents are like, oh, is this a fun practice? Oh, we're probably not gonna make it tonight. And they want to skip that fun practice. But the bigger picture is you're building culture, you're building a team. We're nine years old. I hammered them all weekend, like competitive. Like, you have to win, you have to win, you have to win. This is Monday. It's fun, we're hurting, our bodies are hurting, we're gonna play games, and those are the ones where parents are like, oh, fun practice. Oh, we're not gonna come, we're gonna go do this. And this thing is actually tough to like to try to make everyone happy all the time, but I think that's why you have to have good coaches that see the overall bigger picture, like Mike said. It's not a carnival, but there's a time and a place for compete, and then there's a time for culture and fun, especially when you're coaching nine, eight, nine, ten-year-olds, right? Like there has to be that wanting to come back to the rink. And and one of the coaches I learned from actually in in Pennsylvania is is uh Tyler Kennedy. He taught me was he starts his practice and finishes practice always with the game because you want kids to come to the rink and you want kids to leave wanting to come back to the rink, get your work done in between. You know, I think there's a time and a place for the hardcore like competing and winning, but the bigger picture, we're developing kids, we're developing culture, that all that stuff matters.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:18

Sure, we do the same.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:19

I love when I love talking when I love seeing Tyler's practices too, is that he is I mean, he is a fierce competitor. Oh, he's hardcore, yeah. They're starting with a game, right? But they're not playing a game, they're like killing each other out there. Like, and to me, I always like I grew up with I grew up with four brothers, right? So I always look at it as like like like to me, those are the fiercest battles, like crap at each other in the in the parking lot in the driveway. Like when you have a team that is chomping at the bit when that Zamboni drives off the ice and the doors close, that the first thing they're doing is playing a playing a game, yeah, an activation game in the neutral zone. It is a battle.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:57

They always talk, they always talk about how the best NBA games ever played were not in front of a live audience. It was like the team USA tryouts, right? Like those are the best games ever played, right? Right against their their we'll say brethren in the game. I you know, it I tell people watch an NHL practice, look at how hard these guys go at each other. Put some money up, yeah. Right, you want to see the game.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:20

I think it's I think when you see that, right? You just saw it in the Four Nations, like these guys say that too. It wasn't an all-star game, it was a it was a battle.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:27

That was insane.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:29

So but these, but these guys, but I think that's where we want to get our kids at you know, you can create that that culture at eight and nine years old. You can create a culture of every day you come here, you're gonna compete, but hell, you're gonna have a hell of a lot.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:41

Well, and and look, rounding this episode out, right? The the the tryout, the eval, it's year-round, right? And it's for all of us, it's for coaches, it's for parents, it's for players. We all play a role in that together. The sooner you can establish that with your uh congregation, we'll call it, you know, the the better it might become. And I'll be honest with you, uh, for the for the hockey directors listening, it might be a breath of fresh air. I don't think you lose kids if you come out front and say this stuff. I think you actually start to gain them back. And the kids that you do lose in that environment, you probably are gonna be okay losing. So uh for the parents listening, our ride of the rink this week is gonna be directly for your kids going to the tryout in the eval, um, and which we're gonna hopefully give them some perspective on this and and obviously inspire them to work hard at these evals. You gotta you gotta work hard all the time, though, and that's what that message will be about. But this is uh this has been a great episode. We might actually have to title this one, Mike. For you at the top here, just uh the the tryouts don't exist or something like that. We'll have a fun time titling this one. But there's no tryouts anymore. There's no tryouts, Mike. Sherry, this has been awesome. Uh, thanks for joining me today. And uh for the audience listening, I'm not gonna wish you good luck. I don't I don't believe in luck, but I'm just gonna wish you good hockey. All right, be supportive of your kids this time of year. You know, you know, heed the warnings that we have spoken about. Be a support figure for your children. Coaches, do the best that you can. I'll say this to you, coaches, as well. We we know how hard the parents can be on you this time of year. We think I think more information is better than no information, uh, but you got to protect yourself too. So, a cautionary tale, eval some tryouts with the Our Kids Play Hockey crew for Mike Benelli, Sherry Hudsmith, I'm Leo Elias. We will see you all on the next episode of Our Kids Play Hockey. Remember, if you have a question, a comment, a thought, email us, team at our kidsplayhockey.com, or uh click the link in the description. Um, it'll text us right away. We love hearing from you. We'll see you next time, everybody. Have a good Eval tryout season. Good night. We hope you enjoyed this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or our website, our kidsplayhockey.com. Also, make sure to check out our children's book, When Hockey Stops, at When Hockey Stops.com. It's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much for listening to this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey, and we'll see you on the next episode.