From Raising The Cup To Raising His Kids - Stanley Cup Champion Tom Chorske's Approach To Youth Hockey

SPEAKER_01 1:23

What's up everybody? It's Lee. We got a Stanley Cup champion on our show today. And his name is You're gonna have to listen to the episode to find out. Of course, it's on the title of the episode, so you probably already know. Anyway, having a good time listening to this episode of Our Kids Play Hockey. Uh, it was a really great conversation. We talked about obviously the journey to make the NHL, but more importantly, his journey as a father uh towards his kids and their hockey journeys and everything that goes on between parents and coaches. And you're gonna relate a lot to this one no matter where you're at in a hockey journey. Uh so please enjoy it. And as always, we're heading towards the holidays. Go to hockey wraparound.com. We've talked about this. Use OKPH to get some uh sales there. We got some great uh exclusive stuff going on right now. Uh but it's great stocking stuff or a great Hanukkah gift or anything in between. Um check it out for our uh uh flagship product, the hockey wrap around, which is being used worldwide right now to protect hockey sticks uh all over the world. So if you're spending a lot of money on your kid's stick, this is something you're gonna want to at least look at. Or check out our dry stick uh equipment driving uh rack that's portable, fits in your bag, and also saves you a lot of space. Getting great reviews on that too. But let me get to the episode because I know you're really excited about it. Uh, enjoy this episode of Our Kids Play Hockey. Hello, hockey friends and families around the world, and welcome to another edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. I'm Leas, and I'm joined by my partners in navigating the waters of hockey parenting and coaching, Christy Cassiano Burns, and Mike Benelli. Got another great guest for you today. He was named Mr. Hockey in Minnesota, an award given to the state's most outstanding high school player, which he followed up with a successful collegiate career at the University of Minnesota. That time created the foundations of what will become an 11-year NHL career, which included a Stanley Cup with the New Jersey Devils in 1995. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Tom Chorsky to the show today. Tom, welcome to our kids play hockey.

SPEAKER_04 3:16

Thank you. Uh appreciate that uh that that nice uh intro. And it's good to be with you guys. I've checked your show out previously, and uh now we're finally getting to talk.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

It's good to have you. First off, your resume makes it a very easy intro to make. So that I always appreciate that as well. Congratulations on that. Obviously, you've done a lot beyond just playing hockey, but uh, let's start with that because Tom, you've made the parenting journey like the rest of us through hockey with your kids, your daughter. Hannah plays for Harvard University, some of you might have heard of that school. Brett plays for Colorado College, some of you might have heard of that school, and your son Andrew is still in youth hockey in a dyna in Minnesota. Tell us about when that journey started, where were you at in your career, in your life, and maybe some of the trials and tribulations that you experienced along the way?

SPEAKER_04 4:00

Yeah, so you mentioned my career. Um, I wrapped up my my pro career playing in the International League in Houston, um, after after my NHL career. And our son Brett is the oldest, born in 01, was born right after uh that my pro career ended. So my kids were never part of my my playing career and never saw me play. And um, I think they think I played in the olden days, uh which is kind of true. I mean, the game has has changed a lot, and the skill level is higher and the speed is higher because of the rule changes and all that. But anyway, um, and then Hannah was born in 02, and so they are 21 and almost 20, uh, respectively, and then Andrew is uh 16, and so you know I was retired. Um, I was in the life after hockey and starting a second career, and they were they were born, and we moved back to Minneapolis and Edina specifically, and we happened to live near a pond, and obviously I was probably always gonna put them into hockey, um, and and we did. And but you know, in the beginning it was just see if they want to get on their skates. And for Brett, the first time I put him on skates and I and I set him down, he his skates hit the ice and he picked his feet up. And like he didn't want his feet, he didn't like the feeling of the skates and being on the ice and all that. And then we'd go to we'd go to an outdoor rink nearby and he'd want to take off his skates and run around in the snow. And you know, I'm like, hmm, geez, I was kind of hoping he wanted to skate more, but you know, but you have to let your kids run around and play in the snow when they're six years old, right? So uh we did that, but eventually took a loving to the game and and he's um worked really hard and now he's playing D1 hockey, and kind of Hannah took to it pretty quick. Um, and and we had Andrew in it, and Andrew uh is a few years behind them, obviously, it years wise, and so he was getting dragged along when we were um they you know when Brett and Hannah were kind of pushing through, they they always were really passionate about it, you know, shooting in the driveway, shooting fucks and everything like that. So um yeah, they've uh they've they've worked hard and achieved a lot. And you know, I just told them recently, just so you know, I'm really proud of you and you've you've done enough. Like you don't have to feel like you have to achieve more or whatever. Like I just felt like you know, coming from me, because I do check in with them weekly and give them my two cents maybe, and we don't talk a lot, but uh, you know, I think as a former pro hockey player, I also have to be a little careful of how much pressure I put on them or or whatever. But they're they're young adults now and they're they've figured out you know they're playing the game because they want to play the game and it's taken them to some pretty cool places.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

Yeah, uh Tom, I was gonna say, you know, knowing knowing that we we do you know get the the opportunity to uh interview a lot of ex-pros that are parents, and I would imagine, and and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but you know, when you're in the stands as a youth hockey parent and you see the other parent, right? The parent that doesn't, and we talked we talked about the word perspective a lot, and the parent that doesn't like that that when you set your kid on the ice and he lifts his feet up and he wants to be in his sneakers and run around in the snow instead of skating, the anxiety that a lot of us get as parents, right? That, oh my God, like this is just not meant to be, you know, at at three. And you maybe could you talk a little bit about that about and you don't have to name any specific people, but the type of other athletes that came through with your other two older uh kids and what their anxiety level looked like compared to from where your view was. Right.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

And also, and also, yeah, and there's the temptation of putting pressure on kids because of your background and your passion.

SPEAKER_04 7:59

Right, right. And and in and in Minnesota, right, it's a it's a way of life, it's it's a lifestyle, and really Minnesotans that it most of them, not all of them, you'll meet some families that just aren't hockey families, but most are and have some connection to it. And and they really do have a strong interest in getting their kids into it because they know it's gonna be an important thing socially, status-wise, and things like that. You know, um you know, and Mike, when you were asking me that question about observing, you know, in the stands and things like that. I was thinking the other day about how maybe it's the other side of the coin, but parents when their kid is maybe he's eight or nine or ten, and he's showing some, you know, some passion for the game and he and he and maybe he or she is better than most, or just like take takes to a to a fish like water, whatever have you. I notice that those parents they get they get too excited too fast. And they want to all of a sudden go all in. They're like, oh, this is awesome. My kid is gonna be good at hockey. And and they they may be hockey, they may be good and they maybe are gonna be good, but I think at too young of an age, they get they just get a little too wrapped up in it. Yeah, and then sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't, because you don't know a kid, you don't know what's gonna happen with a kid from age 10 or 11 and 12 to when they're 16, 17, or 18, right? If you've had kids that go through that phase, and I've had two of them now. Um, yeah, there's there's kids that were rock stars when they were 10 and 11, and they weren't even part of the high-level hockey when they were 16 or 17.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

Tom, we say all the time. We say it all the time. All bets are off during puberty. You just never know how a kid is going to come out after that. And I said, you just said it there, the best kid at 10 or 12, who I'm not knocking anyway. You might grow five inches, another kid might grow five inches. There, there are a lot of things that happen in that time period. Uh some would call them distractions, but let's just say your mind isn't focused singly on one thing at that time. So it just can completely change your child. And you go in all in at 10, 11, uh, it's almost almost unfair to the kid.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

Imagine all the kids in Minnesota and Toronto that all play hockey. They all have to play hockey, right? No, good or bad. I mean, I think it's great. If I'm in a community that everyone wants to play hockey, I'm like, this is great. But the NHL is not made up of every single kid from Minnesota and Toronto, right? So the uh the when you see the pen, and I'm in I'm in Fairfield County, Connecticut. We have, I mean, every five miles, there's another pro hockey player popping out of here. And but that doesn't, but but there's so many kids. There's so many other athletes. And I think you know, knowing that if your kid does have a uh a pension for being a really great looking hockey player at eight and nine, they're certainly not elite, right? There's no elite athletes until you're playing elite hockey. But if you're if you're an elite eight-year-old and a nine-year-old and a 10-year-old in our world, then I think what you're saying is, okay, that's great, but don't get all caught up in the fact that you know you got to miss everything else in life. Because the fact is, if you're really that good and you're going to progress, you're going to progress even if you miss that Friday night practice and go to a school dance. And even if you miss, you know, a practice because you got to go to your grandmother's 95th birthday. You know, it's probably things you got to balance. And and Lee talks about this a lot on all his other, you know, uh, a satellite podcasts about, you know, uh mental mental awareness and mental toughness and and just being in a situation where when you're eight or nine or 10, don't miss. Because I think you're you, I I bet you, I I could guarantee I could say the same thing if I asked you, like, well, what what is the rush? Like, like every every parent of an 18, 19, or 20-year-old that I know inevitably says the same thing. Oh man, it went so fast. I I wish I would have let my kid do a couple of these other things because at the end of the day, they miss so much and they didn't get and they didn't get that, they didn't get the end result that I thought they should have got.

SPEAKER_04 12:16

Right. And so they sacrificed some things. I think a couple things I I do want to throw out there. You know, one, I sometimes hear people like to quickly say, hey, your kid's not going to the show, your kids NHL, or not going to the NFL, or whatever. And and I'm not, I don't want to, I never want to steal a kid's dream. And quite frankly, and you just mentioned Mike, you know, you see players come out of your area that reach high levels, and Christy, you probably all we all see it, but it's pretty prevalent in Minnesota, right? So it's hard to tell a kid, hey, you're not gonna play D1 hockey or you're not gonna play pro hockey, because quite frankly, my kids see it all the time. I mean, they go to the rink and there's pro players in the summer that are training, and they're all from around Minneapolis and the Twin Cities and what have you, and up north. Um, so it's you know, it's I would never want to be a dream crusher, right? But you have to keep everything in perspective. And then the other thing about the kids is, you know, people will think, well, he's in their head, they're thinking, well, he's she's a good player, she's she's and she's passionate about it and she loves it. People always say, I mean, if you were to say, hey, why don't you back off a little bit? Oh, but she loves it, she loves playing hockey, she loves it. And it's like, yeah, well, my dog loves his treats too. But if I gave him 24-7, it's gonna be too much, right? So you have to really look at the aggregate of what the child is involved in, and you know, he got homework, and maybe they get they're playing a second sport, and and putting on the equipment eventually will get to be not the fun part. Playing part is fun, but if they're 11, 12 years old and they're going to the room five times a week and have to put on that equipment and lug the bag and everything, it starts to be a little bit too much if it's that man, if it's that often during the week. So, you know, I I think if there was a time where my you know my daughter or son would say, you know, do I have to go to practice tonight? If it's a if it's an in-season, yeah, but if it's a summer skate, I'd be like, no, go have your sleepover, it's fine.

SPEAKER_02 14:16

You know, it's I love that. Um, that is so important. And how do you feel about putting, you know, eight, nine, ten-year-olds, and I've seen it more and more, into elite travel teams at such a young age?

SPEAKER_04 14:29

Yeah, again, um pretty unnecessary. Um, we're pretty fortunate in Minnesota that you don't have to go very far to find you know lots of leagues and teams and play. But I understand around the country. I was just in Arizona this past weekend. A friend of mine um is heavily involved in the junior coyotes and has been for for uh I don't know, 20 years. Um and he played hockey at Minnesota Delute. His name's Mike DeAngelis. Um, and and so I've been introduced to you know that realm of hockey. But pro hockey players have retired there and Austin Matthews has come out of there, and and so now hockey's real big there. They see lots of travel hockey, right? And same thing in in the other parts of the country. Um, but when they're that young, you're better off using your time and your money it it uh in development, right? I mean you don't have to go travel to a tournament. Um try to put together a little team of eight skaters and play four on four or you know, and take a break and or get twelve skaters and play four on four and six on a team, so there's always two on each side resting, whatever. Like you don't have to go play in a tournament to get noticed or go get on my hockey rankings or whatever you think you want to do. I I don't know, but you're right. It's it's some of that it can be really delayed. Um, but people start thinking they need exposure and and they want the they want to be on a team that's nationally ranked and all this fun stuff. It's fun. Let's see, I will say there's a positive side of it, like all the time that parents spend with their kids, and you know, there's some good to it too, but there can be some some downsides.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

So you're so you must have been, you had to be uh I must have butt-dowled you over the weekend because you had to be you had to be in the rink with me this weekend. And so I was in, I was in a um, so I just want to go, I just want to touch on this real quick because I'm a huge fan of the Minnesota model, right? I mean, we talk about on the East Coast, we have Dave Starman that's out here who does a lot of college hockey programming. He's like, you know, he's like, oh my God. Why, why are we able to do this in this one little area of the country and we can't replicate it? And I had the I I had the pleasure yesterday, so a long conversation with um one of your foes there, Stefan Mateau, who uh, you know, uh, you know, was you know in that in that devil, you know, New Jersey rivalry there and all, you know, and all that. That was a great time to be uh a New York sports fan. Um, you know, I know Lee was just talking about how great it is to be a Philly fan right now, but if you were in New York and in '94, '95, whether you're a devil, ranger, whatever, you know, it was a good time to be there. And I think when I started talking uh to him about that's that's how I think about it. I'm like, why do I have to take my six crappy kids and go across two bridges and two tunnels to play somebody else's six crappy kids? Like, is it is it because of is it because of the community you have in Minnesota that creates like, like I could almost guarantee that your daughter and son battled harder against each other, like in open hockey and sticks and pucks and pond hockey, then you don't have to tell them to battle, right? Because they just you're like, please stop hitting each other. Like, stop it. Like you gotta stop battling. And I think that's isn't that where I mean I that's what you're saying, right? Is why don't we create environments to uh and because development? I think in our world, development is a is like a is a bad word for parents because they're like they think development's not fun. Like development's hard work, like development is oh, you gotta put the work in. Well, no, why can't development be fun? Why can't be in a fun, great, you know, why can't you play the same kids every weekend, play music and and you know, have announcements, but create an environment where you don't have to travel, you don't have to segregate onto elite teams um prior to puberty, prior to teenage years. Now, and I and I do 100%, we've had these conversations on this podcast a lot about you know the virtues of going on tournaments and going away and traveling with your team, all great. But overall, for 22, 25 weeks, 30 weeks in your hockey season, why can't we make development part of the fun of playing? And and why do you think it is that Minnesota, and I know there's been a lot of battles there uh about you know town teams and community hockey, but why is it that you're able to stay so strong in these communities and not fight the elite model, you know, not and not give into it?

SPEAKER_04 19:16

Yeah, so the the community-based model, and it's it's been great, you know. I and I don't want to, but I don't want to say it's like you utopia because you know, Minnesota and in the Twin Cities, you're pretty good at hockey in the offseason, right? In the summer seasons, and you've got the financial wherewithal, and plenty of people do, they they get in, they get a club team, a AAA team, and they will start traveling around, um, or you know, going to tournaments in Chicago, Winnipeg, Toronto, Detroit, maybe out to Boston. You know, there's some there's there's that's going on here too. But I mean the community-based model is strong, I think, because pretty much each town has enough uh a lot of kids that can play, right, all the way through. There's a lot of kids playing. Each town has their own arena and it's a municipal arena. It's owned, it's publicly owned, right? It's not a privately run arena. And as soon as you have a privately run arena, and that's your business, you need to figure out how can I maximize profit. And the way you do that is by uh running teams, right? So then the arena has the club, the club has as many teams as they can and charges as much as they can at all different levels and finds as many ways to generate for that arena, right? For that business. Um there's so there's we don't have the same business model financially. Banks are supported by taxpayers. Um and and that's part of it. And then there's the whole community-based model is you know, we got Swartz, Biwees, Bannham's, midget, um and it flows right into that high school. And then you have all these towns, right? And each town has its own club, but it's not a club hockey. And then so the rivalries are there. Uh the you have to drive 10 minutes to get to the next rink, play each other. So it's it's proximity, it's a business model, it's the it's the community-based, um, I think, uh, you know, just culture that Minnesota hockey has. But we talked a little bit off that you know, little by little, it there's there's some uh pecking away at that, where an academy rolls in and they go, Hey, you should come to our academy because you'll develop even better. Now we're onto that development conversation. And you know, you can um you know, you can practice on ice instead of going to your public school gym class, and you know, they they pitch they pitch these families and families that are passionate about hockey will will give it a go. Um the other interesting thing was that during the pandemic um when schools were you know online and shut down and you had to be at home, some of these academies they weren't holding to those those laws or rules or guidelines. And you know, it actually was considered a bonus or a plus if you were in one of those academies or those schools, um you you got to keep going to school and you got to keep skating on the ice or whatever. And so um that some of that online schooling has turned parents on to well, shoot, you know, uh the public school system is goofy and I'm just gonna start sending my kid to this other academy anyway. I don't know. And then talking with my friend Mike down in in Arizona, you know, he said he he coaches a UA team um junior coyotes team, and you know, see he's got some of these kids that are going to these academies by day and they get that extra ice time and they get that um, you know, some skills and drills during the day. But then they show up for his practice and he likes to run a high tempo practice. And this guy's a former pro hockey player in Europe, he's a very good coach. Um, and these kids show up and they're already kind of tired. Like you can't get them to play at their top level. And at the pace he wants them to play at because they've already spent a bunch of their energy um in the in the day afternoon or you know in the morning playing at this academy, you know. Oh i i it's a it's a conundrum that you know people have to figure out, but they can't help themselves sometimes. They just think more is better or they want to cover their bets, you know, and they think well I'm gonna hedge here. If this doesn't work out, then I got this. I think I think, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Right, but business wise, right, Tom, only one kid has to make it to make it look good. And that's a shame. I mean, that's that's the reality. I mean, right? No, the one kid you go, look what the look what we did, look at this kid. But they don't they don't see the carnage that they left, you know, with the with the other 18 that didn't. And I think we see that on the East Coast all the time, that you know, a high school kid is playing club or academy, and then he goes to his high school practice, and there's like, you know, and the levels are a lot different. Yes. And and all of a sudden you're like, oh, geez, like the kid doesn't, you know, I I talked about it even as a college recruiter. Uh, we just talked to a coach last last uh episode, and just about the fact that these kids, you know, they they don't understand in practice is where that development really happens, and they've gotta go, they've gotta come at it at like the top speed. But if they're coming and just going through the motions, then at the end of the day, it's they're really not getting any benefit out of it anyway. So you have to start weighing like, well, where is, you know, if the one kid does make it, which is probably a kid that's gonna make it anyway, and a kid that's you know a special athlete, that's I think what we see. That's we that's all we see. And we see, oh, that that's why I got it, you know, because you know, to kind of wrap this up on on this part of it, but that we all see the kid that everyone says, Well, that's more like my kid than not. Like I'm not, my kid's not the other 18. He or she is the one, right? And I think we all get that. That's and that's at the end of the day where where these I think the biggest part with the parents and and organizers come in is that we have to do a better job of of creating an environment for the whole and not for the one. Yeah, uh, but for the per the person in business, they just need the one.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

Well, Mike, and I I want to jump in real quick too. And and Tom, you taught you topped on this at the beginning of the episode, and Christy and Mike and I talk about this a lot. There's got to be more accountability on parents, ourselves included, to really ask yourself, what is the goal? What is my goal? Because I'll tell you right now, excuse me, if your goal as a parent is to make your kid a professional hockey player, I think, I think we have a priority issue right there. All right. The goal, and again, everyone's got to do this their own way. I'm kind of just speaking for myself. My goal is to make a good human being and to use the game as a vehicle for that to happen. If my kids show some talent, and more importantly, Tom, as you said, some passion, some love, some drive that, hey, I want to make the NHL. I don't care if they're eight or eighteen when they say that. I say this a lot. You do not have to support their dream, but you have to support their right to have a dream. All right. You have to support that right. So, going back to what you said, Tom, again, I never tell a kid they can't make it. I hate when I hate when coaches say that. I hate it. Don't take that away from them. Number one. Number two, what are the contributing factors to making something come true? What's more valuable? The kid pursuing something, maybe not achieving it, but understanding how to pursue something and work hard and understand that life A is not fair, but if you put the work in, you have the opportunity to strive to earn something. We're forgetting a lot of these basic lessons. And Mike, as you said, we're leaving kids behind because you have one superstar that did it. Parents, the goal has got to be to make a good person. Good people make good players. I cannot tell you how many unbelievably talented hockey players I have seen burn out because they do not have this side of the equation. All right. And I'm not saying every player that ever made DNHL was an outstanding citizen, but I'll tell you what, a majority of the ones that I meet are pretty damn good people. All right. Sorry, I'm getting mad, Tom.

SPEAKER_04 27:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:30

No, it's good.

SPEAKER_04 27:30

The the passion is awesome. Um, I think I would say that, and I maybe this is Minnesota. I spend most of my time in Minnesota, but I you know, I go to the USHL showcase, which has U18s and U 16s and U15s involved, and I went to the Nall Showcase, the North American Hockey they didn't play in here, same thing. So during those weekends, aside from the junior teams that are here, there's 50 to 60 other teams that are 18s and 16s. And I try to go out to those rinks in those games too and and get a feel for what's going on because I want to try to have my finger on the pulse of what's going on across the country. Right. Hockey, triple A hockey, and everything. But um, I'm not, you know, I'm not in Massachusetts day in and day out on a regular Wednesday night. Lee, I will say this I dare say that most parents would say, well, I know my kid's not going pro, but they really want, hope, and expect that they're gonna play Division I.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 28:33

And I would I would also venture to say that the parents that hope for that D1 dream act as crazy as anyone.

SPEAKER_03 28:43

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 28:43

Yeah, it's just intense.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

Any destination in the game should not be more important than the destination of your child as a human being, right? That's what I'm saying. I don't care if it's triple A midget hockey. That what is your goal as a parent? It should not be just to create a hockey player. That is that's just not good enough for me. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

No, that's right. Just as they pursue that and they have that passion, you know, even if they don't make D1, D2 is one, and not that many D2 schools, but Division III is great hockey, club hockey is fantastic hockey. So even if they don't reach that upper echelon, they've already, you know, they may find another dream and be happy and satisfied.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

And they'll have the skills.

SPEAKER_04 29:30

It doesn't take away from them and have no, I I I want to say I I'd like to explore that or broaden the conversation, not right here now, but on on D3 hockey and and club hockey, because you know, I think I don't know what the percentage is or you know what happens, but I think a fair number of kids they aim for D1. And at least on the boys' side, you know, they usually have to have to go through junior hockey. And if they don't make division one, that probably means they played at least two years of junior, maybe three in a lot of cases. And by that time, I can understand them having been through the meat grinder and just being kind of over it. If you've played three years of junior in the knall or in the in USHL, which means that two years ago your dream was alive and all of a sudden it's not gonna work out. You know, I but I don't like the idea of kids walking away from it because clearly the game, and I think if they would just like take a breather, okay, it's it's a disappointment that you didn't make division one. But uh keep playing the game, it's gonna be good for you to be on a team to have social to have a social support system at your at your club team or your division three school. Um I I get that sometimes the dream and the motivation behind D one is that you can get a scholarship, right? Maybe you can cut uh your tuition in half, which is obviously quite tempting and maybe necessary for a lot of people. But uh if you can figure out, if you can afford or figure out um what's going on in division three hockey, I mean, talk about having a great experience. And I'll share this story with you. This is kind of an interesting story. I was talking to a D1 coach, East Coast, big school in Massachusetts, um, good hockey, really good hockey program. And he we were we got in this conversation at a rink once about two years ago. And he said, you know, I sometimes kind of he almost felt bad for some of the kids that end up making their team. And he said, Because you know, those fourth line guys, we we own their bodies and their butts just as much as the first line guys, and they have to do all this work and they don't get to enjoy their summers, they're on campus all summer long and training and working out, and you know what? Maybe maybe that's fine for for a kid that he's happy and proud that he made his goal was to be on a D1 team and he's on it and he's at a big school, and it's fine. But he's like, you know, there's some kids that could go play and be like the best player on their division three school team, and they could have their summers pretty much off and go and hang out with their friends and family and go to the lake or you know, go on the boat or go to the shore and have just a little bit better lifestyle than basically doing all the work and sitting on the bench.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

Yeah, and I like I like the I mean, even to even to drill that back down to youth hockey, right? That you don't always have you and and Chrissy, right? We've had these, we've had these episodes where you don't have to pick the top team, even if you're a top player. Like you can pick the team that fits your needs as a family and as a kid. You don't always have to be going through the the the grind, and I hate that word, like imagine like in youth hockey where it's like, oh wait, this season is a grind. I mean, a grind, you're 12 years old. Like, how is it going to be a grind? Like the grind should be, you know, and and and I think that that ability to be a part of a club, to be a part of something, whether it's band, chess, whatever it is. If it if it happens to be hockey and your kid loves hockey, then use that. Use that as the carrot to say, hey, keep working hard, go to school, or or wow, what this is a great social circle, but don't allow that to say, well, I'm I want this so badly, and I and then that's where we're parents, right? We have to be able to bring in and have a conversation and say, Well, okay, I'm gonna try to help you here, and this is why I want to guide you. This is great, but you know what? If you got to try these other things at 12, 13, 14 years old, who knows? I mean, I've seen really, really talented hockey players that are really talented lacrosse players, and by 16 years old, they're not playing hockey anymore, but they're going to Duke. I mean, just because they they but they because they're part of something, but they allowed all these other experiences to help them with their with their with their end experience. So I think for all of us as youth hockey parents, it doesn't have to be if your main goal is to get your your child to Lee's point to a great place as a human being, use hockey. I think it's great, but don't overuse it.

SPEAKER_04 34:22

Yeah, I I'm not gonna lie. I think, you know, once I saw that um Brett and Hannah were pretty good hockey players, you know, I'm I'm starting to think, yeah, they they we might get them to D1 hockey, right? I mean, I'm not gonna lie, right? But then I would have to catch myself, and I'm gonna bring this back to what what Lee was talking about and something I've been thinking about recently, um, is is just tempering it, right? Because then I I I'm fortunate to have the my own life experiences and and enough self-awareness that I'm a former pro NHL hockey player that won the Stanley Cup. And my daughter actually probably alerted me to it one day. We were at breakfast table, and and I was gonna start asking, making some suggestions about, you know, she was probably 12 or 13. And she kind of looked at me and and my kids, these two kids, they just they get a little either uncomfortable or annoyed, probably annoyed, and I don't do it a lot because I learned pretty quickly, but she's like she basically said, Dad, can't this just be my thing? Like, I think I got this, you know, or I'm I'm one of the best good for her right now. Yeah, yeah, it was great. It was great. She kind of put me in my place. Um, or or she she wasn't, she just was expressing how she was feeling, but I think they felt like, okay, you played hockey, I get it, you know everything about hockey, I get it, but and you want to be involved, but I kind of just want this to be my thing too. So that's another thing that um parents could could maybe think about. Lee, you talked about what's your goal, right? What's your goal on this thing? And and and if your goal, if if everything you're thinking about is D1 all the time, then that's how you're gonna operate. 12. You keep if you keep focusing on D1, D1, D1, you're gonna do crazy, irrational, expensive things, right?

SPEAKER_02 36:17

Exactly. And you're uh your your daughter, a smart cookie, by the way. Did we mention Harvard?

SPEAKER_03 36:24

Yeah, she works hard.

SPEAKER_02 36:26

Yeah, she's and that journey wasn't easy for her either. That obviously is a is testimonial to her just hard work and get in achieving that dream.

SPEAKER_04 36:36

So yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, yeah, I was just gonna finish off on that. You know, what your what your source of of focus is will drive your actions, right? And right, if your focus is, I just want to make sure I've got this well-rounded kid, well-adjusted kid, mentally healthy child, then you're gonna do things different than if you're like if you just keep thinking on I want my child to get to D1, it's not just hockey, right? Any sport. We see it in soccer, lacrosse, baseball, what have you, dance. You know, people just get if if that's what they keep thinking about is well, for he or she to get to here, I have to do this, this, and this, and this. And then all of a sudden you're you're not thinking about other other um options, other avenues, other activities, other mindsets, you know, and it just gets it gets off track.

SPEAKER_01 37:29

Did Tom, what I say is this, and because I've had conversations with parents about this too. And and look, when I talk about parenting, I really am talking about my own experience. Everybody has to do it their own way. There's different social situations, there's different home situations, right? Right. But when I say what's your goal, I'm really talking about what is your foundation for parenting. And and I always tell everybody this, and and I I make myself vulnerable with this, I have no problem saying this on the air. My goal every day, at the end of each day, is my kids know I love them and I know they love me. That is my starting foundation. And I'll have parents say, Well, what about competing? And what about sports? They're all there for me too, but that has to be the top goal for me every day. And then it transcends down from there the other items. So I'm fine pushing my kid to try harder or pushing my kid to practice as long as it does not compromise that other thing I just said. And that's that's how I do it. So, to your point, if your top goal, and look, look, if you're listening to this show, you love your kids. There's no question on if parents love their kids. We've talked about this too. Sometimes you love them so much you do things you're not comfortable with, or you do things that you look back and go, ah, I pushed too hard. But the truth is this you have to have a foundation of why you're doing this. And if you want your kid to make a D1 team or whatever, it doesn't matter what it is, a high level of anything. Just make sure you have a priority set of why you're doing it, how you're doing it, and what the goal is. Because I it is disturbing at times. I mean, we all have seen that. Everyone listening has seen that. The level uh would parents go. I saw a person yelling at their eight-year-old goalie the other day on how to make better saves. And it's like the kid can barely stand. What are you doing? I wasn't in your rank this weekend.

SPEAKER_04 39:14

It was literally eight years, he was an eight-year-old kid.

SPEAKER_01 39:17

It was a might game, right? In the beginning of the season, kids got all the pads, and it they were being critiqued by their parents on the form. And I just was, I mean, that kid is is gonna hate playing goalie after a while.

SPEAKER_04 39:30

Right. That and then that kid didn't even put on the equipment, right? Right, right, right. Parent had to put on the equipment, but parent signs him up, puts on the equipment, puts him on the ice, and then tells him he's not doing a good job.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

I didn't even ask for this. Yeah, but Tom, isn't isn't that the guy in in section 285 that's saying, get in front of that shot, what's wrong with you? Come on, you know, you're you kidding me? How soft can you be? Yeah, you know, and they think that's and all of I mean, I think uh I would I would venture to say that, you know, so what I love is like my kids that play other sports that I didn't play, I feel so out of my element. Like I'm sitting there going, Oh my God, is this like actually good or is he not good? Like, like that's the sport parent I love. I love the one that has like just has no clue over the one that doesn't have a clue, that's that that red, you know, how to hockey by dummies. Like, I just think it's the one that just says, I don't know. I just I think he's doing okay. And I I just keep bringing him here and he wants to come or she wants to do those extra things. You know, I I told her she couldn't do these extra five camps, but they can do this camp. Like, those are the ones that I try to model after because I forget that I'm in this world of hockey every day. I can give more knowledge than anyone. I know that. If I'm in a room, like if I was you, I'd be sitting there, you know, going with my Stanley Cup bringing I said, so what are you thinking? What are you, what are you what are you thinking about this again? But the reality is you're immersed in it so much you probably do know more. It's almost the ability to say, like your daughter wants you to do, right? Say, okay, I'm gonna kind of step back like I don't know anything, and I'm just gonna support you. And and if I can help you, and when you ask for my help, and I always like even the coach, even the teams I coach at my own kids, I'm always trying to tell the parents, like, if I'm coaching my own son on this team, I want you to benefit from it just like your kid is my kid. Like, take that knowledge, take the opportunity. Because I'll tell you right now, if I'm in a room with a bunch of accountants, I can tell you right now I'm I'm picking their brain. I can guarantee you, I'm like, well, what do you do here? Because I don't know. I don't know. That's not my expertise. My expertise is in this field, and I think people could take advantage of that, but I but I almost have to be able to say, well, maybe they don't want that. So maybe I got to back off.

SPEAKER_01 41:42

You want it on the podcast though, Mike.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

We want you here. That's that's my hey, that's my outlet. This is my this is my outlet.

SPEAKER_02 41:49

Have you been recruited to coach your kids' teams over the years?

SPEAKER_04 41:53

You know, I coached them in the beginning when they were they were quite young, and then um sort of it's sort of a goosey-goosey written rule, but you know, when the kids were if they make the top team as peewees or U12s, they didn't necessarily want parents coaching if they didn't have but what ended up happening on the boys' side that was the case. There wasn't really a dad coaching. The girl side, there was some dads that were coaching their daughters, but um, they were really good coaches, and so I they didn't really need me. And that I kind of felt like what's probably better as long as they're getting good coaching. Sure, the team doesn't really need me in there. I'm happy to stand back again.

SPEAKER_02 42:39

Wow, um good for you because I would think that would be kind of tempting too. Uh, if you didn't have good coaches, yeah, and maybe these established guys hold that stand covering a thing or two.

SPEAKER_04 42:53

Oh, well. Listen, you know, there's always a parent meeting, right? And so the coach would stand at the front of the room with the parents, and one year this coach he was like, I know we got a former pro hockey player in here, but I don't care from you guys. And you know, you know, when the coach tries to tell the parent, does tell the parents kind of what the ground rules are, like 24-hour rule, you know, if your son or daughter doesn't play as much as you like, you gotta wait 24 hours to call and ask why or figure it all out. But he kind of called me out. It was kind of awkward. It was like thanks a lot, but uh, you know, and other time our special. Our son was a pee-wee and and had the had a had a good coach. Um and he was a hockey dad, he had a kid on the team, and he has one, two, three, four, four of his five kids have played division one hockey too. Um but to his credit, he stood up in front of the room and he said, We got a really good team. And they did. They had a team that I think like nine out of the 15 boys have played division one hockey. Oh wow. Um, anyway, he said, We've got a really good team. I think I know enough of what I'm doing. The only the only way this is gonna get screwed up is by you guys because the parents are the only ones that'll screw this up. You guys so you guys get squirrely and getting my business and getting the team's business, or if you're backstabbing, you know, each other's kids about this or that, he goes, that's the only thing that's gonna mess this up. If you guys can just sit back and enjoy the season, um we'll be we'll be fine. And which was a good message to the parents, you know.

SPEAKER_02 44:39

I wish every coach would say that in the beginning of the season because I have seen time and time again, parents really mess things up, even when we start off as such a great team and everybody's on the same page. Then parents get upset because their kid doesn't have enough playing time, doesn't like the coaching style, thinks they know how to coach better than them. And then all of a sudden, in the middle of the season, it's chaos and mutiny. And they want to, right?

SPEAKER_04 45:07

Well, I think it'd be interesting. I think it'd be interesting. I was just thinking earlier, uh you guys haven't done this, and I don't know if you could get people kids to be completely candid. Right, but it almost like you'd like to be a fly on the wall. But you know it's that in locker rooms across the world or country, kids are at some point probably going, Man, these parents are donkeys, just you know, or or my dad is hate when my dad does this or that, or my mom is crazy because right she says this or that, and yes, it's uh sometimes they're like, Oh my god, you guys stop.

SPEAKER_02 45:41

You're you're crazy parents, and like yeah, I I hope all the parents listening.

SPEAKER_04 45:47

And if you can I go, you think I'm crazy? Did you see that?

SPEAKER_02 45:50

You know, right, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 45:51

Compared to what you know, I'm I'm always I'm always they take the curious road, not the judgmental role road. And I always get curious about with parents, you know, if when how they how they look at a situation. So let's say, Christy, to your point, let's just say they don't like the coaching staff or they don't like another player on the team, right? You know, again, what's the first response? Is it accountability or is it pointing the finger? Yeah, right. Is it that okay, this is adversity we're facing? This kid is doing something wrong to you. I'm not gonna blame this kid. How how are we going to achieve accountability with this situation? I don't think those conversations are happening enough in locker rooms or in the cars rides home. Oh I think a lot of finger pointing is going on right now. Uh this is a national problem. This is probably a global problem. It's not just a hockey problem. Um, you know, and and it it it that's part of the conversation, I think, you know, with parents. It's just what is again, it's all out of love, right? You want to protect your kid. And and we've talked about this before. It's easier to protect your kid when they're hurting and be mama or papa bear than it is to help them overcome adversity. It's easier, right? But that's the tough part of parenting. Like that's one of the hardest things. Oh, it's super hard. Look, I've I wanted to go back to what Mike said. Mike, you brought up a great example. I don't think I've ever talked about this on this show. I I and for those of you who listen know this. I I was experiencing just above average levels of anxiety last year with my son uh playing, which is weird because we I'm on this show, but I'm a parent like anybody else. And I remember, Mike, again, curious, the curious, not judgmental mindset. My daughter was playing soccer. I was just watching her play soccer, and I was so carefree and so just even killed and happy. And my my curiosity is like, why am I so calm here and not with hockey? And it goes back to what we've saying. Well, I know hockey, I'm involved in hockey, and it was very hard for me to shut that off. But that experience with my daughter really checked myself. I really had to check myself and say, hey, listen, you got to start approaching hockey a little differently. And I did. Uh, and that sport, again, soccer really taught me of how am I going to the rink? What is my mindset when I'm going to the rink? Do I always have to say, you know, oh, I you you could do this better, or this is how I would handle that? If he's not asking. If he's asking, I'll tell him. And he all the time. My daughter too. But I was amazed because I didn't know soccer, how calm I was. And I was thankful for that moment because it allowed me to kind of, again, check myself and say, you need to bring it down a notch in your own mind just about how you approach this. Now, Tom, and you're just the time I wanted to ask you. So I had a whole rundown of questions, and I love that we didn't get to more than one of them because it just shows how great of the question is. So it's fantastic. No, no, that's what we want. That's exactly what we want. It means the conversation went went a great direction. Um, so I'm going to combine a couple of these questions just to ask you. You know, look, you in your playing career were always at the top in some form, right? Whether it was high school, college, or pro. So the question I want to ask you is this. Our kids today are under an immense amount of pressure, probably more so than any other time in history in terms of just scrutiny and eyeballs looking. So I wanted to ask you, could you dive into maybe the differences? Uh, and I won't date you here, but your your time in high school, college, into the professional ranks, the pressure you maybe felt and how that might differ from your own kids going through this today, because it's a totally different environment.

SPEAKER_04 49:22

Yeah, I felt pressure starting in college. Up to up to high school, you know, I was always excelled and one of the best players on my team and best player in the city. And you mentioned I was named Mr.

SPEAKER_01 49:37

Hockey, which makes you the best in the state.

SPEAKER_04 49:40

Which makes me the best in the state. Yeah. And then that was and then and and so and shortly after I was given that award, I was drafted 16th overall by Montreal, right? Pretty high draft pick. I wasn't ranked that high. But I I mean I just went a little higher than I was projected. But all of a sudden, I'm first rounder to Montreal. I go to play for the University of Minnesota, and I had no mental toughness or skills to deal with adversity. And I got on the ice, I you know, I didn't go play junior, and at that time, if you were a first-round draft pick and you had a full scholarship to go to college, you just went straight to college. You know, it's less less likely these days. Um but I jumped from a really I was in a really pretty mediocre league where I really excelled. And obviously, I eventually achieved, you know, and kind of played up to my ability. So they weren't completely wrong, but or maybe I was never a 16th round or 16th overall level player. But um, I I got to college and I was really struggling. I was slumping. Um, and coach was on me pretty hard, and I started, I lost all my confidence, and I'd never had to deal with that before. So I was and I was feeling pressure. And at one point, the scout that was responsible for drafting me, who had been watching me and watching me, and they basically kind of went off the board. They had two picks in the first round, and they took me with their second pick at 16. He came to me at one point, he's like, What are you doing? He's like, You got to play better. He goes, I'm gonna lose my job.

SPEAKER_01 51:22

Oh, geez.

SPEAKER_04 51:24

I remember that was about mid-season.

SPEAKER_01 51:26

How old were you?

SPEAKER_04 51:27

I was 18. I just wanted to reiterate that not 19. I had turned 19 in the fall, but it was fresh, I was a freshman in college. Wow. I was playing bad for my college team, and I wasn't producing, and the coach was yelling at me, and then this guy came to me and said, You're gonna cause me to lose my job. I stuck my neck for you. Uh, and I was like, you know, part of me was like, Well, I didn't ask to be drafted, you know, but still I was like, felt a lot of pressure. Um, and so it took me a while. I'd I'd I'd think about hockey at night and just think in my head, like, how am I gonna get out of this? How am I gonna this? And at that time, you didn't have, you know, maybe a sports psychologist that you could go to. My parents didn't play sports and didn't play hockey, and they they couldn't really help me much. Um, and so I just would kind of lay it, lay in bed and grind on it. Um, and then you know, then the kind of same thing happened when I got to the to the NHL. Tough coaching, tough environment. Had to fight through some confidence issues, and you know, I at one point rest my soul, he passed away, but he was hard on me. And I was a college American kid that you know, not that rough and tumble. Going into play for a rough and tumble guy. He put the newspapers in front of me, they were the French newspapers. And he's like, I don't know if I can keep playing you. The the press is writing all this, and it's not good. Wow, and you know, just you're sitting across from the table. Now I'm 22, still feel even though I'm a young man, but it's all new to me, and the pressure of playing for the Montreal Canadians, and the coach is saying, Hey, the press is all over you. Um, and so again, you start feeling these pressures. I think to to try to speed this answer up, kids these days, you know, they're feeling the the pressure from social media and all the noise that that they are exposed to. Um, they see a lot of things, you know, they see the highlights of all different levels, they get pressure of the parents. If we've sort of talked about if the if the focal point is, hey, you got to make the double-A team, or you got to make, you know, we hope if it's implied that we want to get you to um D1 hockey, you know, there's some pressures, pressures that way. Um, but it's it's parentally driven, I think. Um sorry, I got a phone call that I have to get rid of. Um I I think it's I think it's it's more it's driven more by the parents. I didn't have the parent pressure, I didn't have social media pressure. You know, I can imagine these days you even you hear, you know, I follow social media and hockey, you know, media and stuff like that. And you can only imagine um that if people start critiquing a player or a young player on that type of platform, not to mention the stuff that's out of our vision, you know, in the group chats and private chats and or DMs and all that. So I think there's those types of pressures these days that I'd even be hitting kids when they're younger and kids feeling like inadequate at a at a young age where I never felt inadequate, you know, until I was in college.

SPEAKER_00 54:46

That's an important thing. And it must have been a lot of pressure too, because you came up in a in an era, right? I mean, we had just won gold, right? And and you you're in the world. Well, that inspired me, yeah. And and it must have been a really I mean, that must have been a positive side where you're like, wow, look at I mean, we're we're legit. I mean, back because you gotta remember, you know, back then, you know, college players weren't going into the NHL and and like they do now.

SPEAKER_04 55:07

Not as much, no. So yeah, then yeah, so there was some of that pressure arriving as an American college player versus you know the players that come out of major junior hockey. And the guys were great. Oh, I I mean, my teammates, they were fine. Um, they tried to help me, but they could only help me so much. You know, if I'm wrong, if I'm on the wrong side of the coach or not playing up to my ability, but I was a high draft pick, so I'm sure he was being sort of forced, like, hey, we gotta play this kid, we're gonna have to get him get him going here. And the coach was like, It's gonna cost me my job. Um, because or or coaches, you know, that's one thing I learned too. You get to pro hockey, and sometimes you would assume that the coach and the GM are like thick as thieves, and sometimes they weren't, because sometimes the GM, at least back then, maybe I think things have changed a little bit now and they figured out how to work and communicate better. But the GM hired the coach, and then sometimes the GM would tell the coach what to do, and the coach would sometimes push back and be like, Hey, if I'm gonna go down, I'm gonna go down playing the guys I want to play. It's not my fault you drafted this kid and he's not playing that well, or I don't really like that kid's personality, or I don't like his background, you know, whatever. It's it's better these days, I think, than than it was back then. But that look back when I, like you said, dating me, you know, I'm playing through the 90s basically. Um, it was still old school, right? Like coaches that were um old school and rough and tumble, and a lot of times GMs and coaches that had played, you know, they just got those jobs. Well, they might not be very good communicators, or they might not even be, you know, they might think they can put together a good team, but then they they don't know how to build a good culture, or their culture is really toxic, you know. The culture that they want to have is is a toxic culture, and um, and so there was you know, there was things to navigate um as as a as a player that I never really had to navigate until I was an adult.

SPEAKER_01 57:08

So, Tom, let me ask this a perfect follow-up for that. Um, I know you're asked or you've been asked many times in your life about winning the cup. All right, so I'm not gonna ask you that, all right, because it's been documented. You just talked about culture. Tell me about the culture in that locker room that year. And then also, this is a question I always ask the championship moment's a great moment, but it's just a moment. There's adversity that leads up to that moment being possible. I think you just tapped on a lot of that, you know, in your younger years. Oh, how to how to be mentally tough. So tell me about the culture in New Jersey in the mid-90s, and then tell me about how you borrowed from your own experience to overcome, you know, and win 16 games.

SPEAKER_04 57:51

Yeah. Um yeah, so uh that I mean it's I love talking about that that team and and the culture that that evolved. And so I got there in '91, '92. Jersey Devils were kind of middle of the road team, lower, you know, not terrible.

SPEAKER_01 58:07

Um, they had gotten into the playoffs. Some would have called them a Mickey Mouse organization.

SPEAKER_04 58:12

Yeah, some might have some picture of Gretz behind me up there. There you go. Yeah. Um, so yeah, so they at one point they were a Mickey Mouse organization. But you know, I got there with Stefan Richet from Montreal, I think the same week as as Lou Lamarello, the GM, was able to obtain Scott Stevens through an arbitration that St. Louis had grabbed Shanahan. Scott Stevens. And I mean, immediately that starts that changes the game. Maybe you didn't know it that week, but pretty quickly Scott Stevens obviously has uh emerged as an unbelievable leader, um, a champion, a hall of famer. And and so pieces started getting put back in there skill-wise, talent-wise, um, ability-wise. And uh you got Scott Niedermeyer, who's uh a projected Norris trophy winner, but he's 18. Uh Martin Broder, I mean, hello. Uh he's in the minors, and and we're like making licking your chops a little bit. Um, and so all these pieces started coming in. And then, and we had Herb Brooks was a coach at one point um for one year. That didn't work great. Uh, but he was hard on me. Like I was that was another year where I thought I get to play for Herb Brooks, the bull metal coach from Minnesota. Like, this couldn't be any better. I skate like the wind, he likes guys that can skate. He skated up to me on the first day of practice just like like in the movies, you know. Like, well, first, and I think in the locker room at one point he said, Hey, the legs feed the wolf, and that's all he said. And the next day, I think he came by and goes, Chorsky. Remember what I said to you yesterday? You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, Herb, I know what you mean. But he so I just I these lines in the movie, he actually he said them. Um, but he skated up to me first time on the ice. I was so excited that I was gonna get to play for Herb Brooks, and and he said, I've been watching you my whole life, and you're gonna be have to be a hell of a lot better if you think you're gonna play for me. And I skated away, and I was like, Oh my gosh! Like, and and my head went like, what if he he probably has been watching me his whole life? Because he's from St. Paul, I'm from Minneapolis. St. Paul, Minneapolis don't really get along because they're the you know, blue collar typically over there, and we're we're on the other side of the tracks. And I just started, you know, my head started swirling, and I thought I got I got in my own head, but anyway, it's it's a fun story now. And um Herb was he was challenging coach, challenged his players, but he was good, and he came to my dad's funeral, so that says it all, right? Like he showed up at my dad's funeral, and I was given the eulogy and looked out there and I was like, wow. So I know he didn't dislike me, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:13

Um, but the the the piece is starting to think he was just trying to bring out the best in you, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:20

Yeah, and coaches do that, and sometimes even my kids, uh our kids are getting challenged in college right now, and it's really easy to go, how dare they? You know, that coach doesn't know what they're doing, right? That's because we love our kids, and and I I will throw my wife under the bus, she's really uh really mama bearish. Um, and I have to kind of stop her and go, maybe they're just trying to get the best out of them, maybe they think there's more, or hey, you ever think about it from the coach's point of view? Coach is trying to win the game. Coach is trying to win the game. There's a chance your child isn't playing well enough tonight or today or this week or lately that they just feel like they can win with them. And you have that's a hard thing to accept, but you have to say, hey, maybe they deserve it, you know. And but then you know it is really hard.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:13

That is hard.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:14

It's hard to basically look at look at yourself or look at your kid and go, they're not cutting it. Right. And and they have to look at themselves too. And I'm sure we call them and go, Hey, hang in there, you're doing great. I thought you played really well, you know, you did this and you did that, and they're like, Thanks, and and but they probably hang up the phone and you know they get video sent to them and they sit down the next meeting that they have, and the data's all there or whatever, and they're probably going, Yeah, my parents are being really nice, but the data says I wasn't very good. Yeah, so anyway, I want to answer your question because the culture part is so important. So then Jacques Lamaire and Larry Robinson arrive, two legendary, you know, kind of iconic uh Stanley Cup champions. Their approach to the game was so um methodical and logical, and they the way they communicated and taught was very um pretty straightforward, pretty calm, but very demanding. Like, here's the system we're gonna play, here's why it makes sense. And then, you know, now we've got we've got Niedemeyer in the mix, and Broder in the mix, and Scott Stevens is an amazing captain, and then we've got a layer of of leaders like John McClain and Ken Danico and Bruce Driver. Um, and then we've got kind of another next layer of you know glue guys, Randy McKay and Tom Chorsky, and we've got some young guys coming in, Billy Guerin and Brian Rolston and Sergey Brelin. You know, these names at the time people don't really know, but they're good hockey players, and they're eventually going to be 10-year, 12-year, 15-year players. Um, and so the culture came to be having a staff that we all respected, and then the staff showed respect to us. They, you know, whether you were playing or not, they never they never you know belittled you or disrespected you or took your dignity away, which I thought is really important because that's not common in pro hockey and maybe even in college hockey. And coaches don't see that you're actually affecting a player's dignity. It's unnecessary and it's harmful and it's toxic, but then we all kind of had a role, like kind of each each line had their own identity, and then when we had to kill a penalty, we kind of had a group of guys that did that, and then we had another group of guys that went on the power play, and you'll find you know, when when you get that culture right, it's like a recipe, it's like a really good recipe, and then you have to have these certain ingredients. And and Lou Lamarello delivers a lot of credit, really gruff and hard guy to to please, or or and abide by his boundaries and guidelines. He's got some pretty strict beliefs, but they ended up kind of helping us. Um, and and so we had we had boundaries and guidelines, and and you know, an important thing is values, right? Like a team has to establish, or a coach should establish what are our values, right? Like our values are gonna be consistency, and so if you show up every day, whether it's a game or a practice, you got to be consistently your best. And if you showed up on a day, I tell this story sometimes, I'm just make up an example. Say we don't play for three days or two days, and you went out the night before, and you thought you were gonna come in and you know, you stayed up past your bedtime a little bit, went to a comedy show, had a couple beers, you know, because you're in the NHL and you want to enjoy your enjoy, you know, your couple nights off. But if you didn't show up and practice at the level that Captain Scott Stevens expected you to, he might knock you right on your butt. Or he might come over and say, Hey, get it together. Right? Like, I'm not having it. And so then you got some leadership from inside that are holding people accountable. Um, the coaching staff knows that, hey, if any of these guys get out of line, Stevens or McLean, McLean would have a different style. He would come over and he'd be like, Hey, it looks like you're struggling, or you know, blah blah blah, help you out before the coach had to do it. So we had, you know, standards, values, the right uh relationships and connections uh on the team. Not everyone, you know, you didn't have to be best friends with everyone, but if there was a guy on the team, say that maybe I didn't love his personality and I wouldn't go out to dinner with him, I still respected him for the job he could do. Like man, that guy shows up and he plays hard. And yeah, I'm not gonna go hang out with him because he's a nut bag, he's a little nuttier than I am. I'm trying to, you know, I'm trying to uh mine my P's and Q's here. This guy's a little than me, which is fine. But um but the guy does his job, and I can respect that. So that was kind of the culture that was going on was you know, these these standards and values that we all uh held to. Um there were fights, there was a couple fights. Practice at times, too, where two guys were so competitive and so mad that maybe they weren't getting the ice time they wanted. They the coach had moved them down a line that day, so they had a green jersey instead of a red jersey and their ornery, and they start butting heads, but then it was fine. It was like we understood it. We're like, yeah, we're all competitive, we're all trying to win the Stanley Cup. Um, that's okay that they're mad at each other today. They got they lost horns. You know, after practice, it was fine, and sometimes they'd laugh about it right after. Um, anyway, it was a really good culture, and I think when you have a good culture, it's based on, like I said, values and some standards and some boundaries and guidelines, and everyone sticks to it, and everyone's held to the same accountability as another one that you mentioned earlier. Man, do I see too many situations where a coach lets one guy off the hook, one of his better players, or a guy that he just has a bias that he likes better or lets him off the hook or makes an excuse for him, and then and then holds other kids and players to a different standard. And not everyone has to be held to the exact same standard, but you can't just let other people get away with stuff. Um I guess what I mean is not everyone has the same talent level, right? So you can't expect everyone to score the same amount of points or make the same amount of plays, but there's sort of some rules like, hey, we're not you we're not gonna we're not gonna um start practice until everyone does 10 pull-ups, right? And then there's a kid that uh doesn't do 10 pull-ups, and uh, it's okay. We'll just, you know, I'm just using an example. And then everyone's like, well, how come he doesn't have to do 10 pull-ups? You know, that kind of thing that causes problems on teams. So accountability was always very consistent. Communication was was regular. You hey, you were you've been good here, we need you to be better here. That's all I need to know. Sometimes it was amongst each other. Um, some some self-policing internally because we had leadership and we had high standards and everyone knew what they were. Hey, you're not that's not good enough. So I don't know. I'm I've been all over the map, but maybe I've given it a little bit. No, it's a great answer.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:32

But let me let me let me ask this real quick as a follow-up, all right? And then I'll throw it to my co-hosts to kind of close it out because we could talk to you for six years, I can tell. Um, is there a correlation between the teams that had great cultures and didn't have great cultures and winning and losing? 100%.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:52

You know, I think you see that in maybe in pro sports where a team will load up on free agents, go out and they'll sign the best players, and so they have more talent than most other teams, but they can't put it together, and that's because um, you know, maybe the star players think it's all about them, right? You've seen that happen, and then these other guys are the rank and file are doing a lot of the work or the same work, or they're held to a different standard. Like guys, superstars get to make all the mistakes, and as soon as I make a mistake, I'm out of the lineup, or they get all the glory, uh, they stay out, they overextend their shifts, or they steal you know, they're not steal, hog up all the playing time, and you know, it just creates rifts and things like that. So, I mean, you can't just have all the talent without all the standards and and values, right? If you value certain things, then that has to be consistent. And sometimes you see that uh these these superstar teams or high talent teams or a few talented players are get to do whatever they want and the other guys don't, um, then there's rifts, and then what happens is then when you get into adversity, you get into a slump, you get into a losing streak, there's no there's no um cohesiveness, right? Because there's division. And superstars are probably like, well, I'm still scoring my points, it's not my product, it's not me. These guys gotta start doing more, you know, or and vice versa. So it creates rifts. So the culture is so important um from top to bottom. And again, I think when you walk into a uh a restaurant or a or a locker room or a company or a store, if you're kind of paying attention, you can feel that that business or that organization has a really good culture, but kind of by the way the people are communicating and the way they're cooperating and way they're working together. And in hockey, it's man, these guys they don't seem like they have the all the best players, but they sure do play well together and they're winning a lot of games, and yeah, and then all of a sudden, you know, the New Jersey Devils were we were we just snuck up on these teams, and well, I shouldn't say snuck up because in '94, which Mike so eloquently pointed out, we got to the Eastern Conference game seven, double overtime, and his friend Stefan Mateau ended our season. Um, but we had taken that step and we felt pretty good about things. It was really disappointing. But I think almost immediately after that disappointment was we are like, next year we are we're getting this done. Right, right. He used it. And and we all felt that we didn't even, I don't remember talking about it, but I think we all just inherently felt like, okay, we've been this close. We're uh next year we're we we're gonna be able to do this. And and so um we you know, we get to the Stanley Cup finals. Uh we won, we were 16 and 4 in the end. At the point at one, at we didn't have a great regular season, so we started on the road. And so at one for a long time, we had the most road wins to that won a cup. We would won 10, we were 10 and 1 on the road. Wow. We always started on the road and we'd win those games. And then we played against the Detroit Red Wings, who had Sergei Federoff and Steve Eiserman and Dino Cicerelli and Larry Murphy, and they they were kind of they were kind of the favored team, and we swept them in four. And and I remember after a couple games, they couldn't believe they were down two. I couldn't believe we were up two, and and the next thing you know, it was just like four games, and we'd won the cup.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:38

Hey, I'm gonna say it again on the adversity front. Adversity is an assist, right? That I think the Rangers gave you an assist. I think you gave the Red Wings an assist, right? And I was a Flyers fan, so we didn't get anything growing up. I just had my youth ended in 2000 by Scott Stevens. But I'll I'll tell you what, is it jokes aside, man, like as I've gotten older, you start to have so much respect for for your teams and those Red Wings teams and those teams that succeeded because you see what they had to do to come together. And you know, it's funny, Tom, you mentioned this that you know, there's when you look back at those mid-90s devils teams now. Yeah, there's a lot of Hall of Famers, a lot of amazing players. But really at the time, maybe I mean, even Brodeur was not Brodeur yet at that time period. It's that team won with an aggregate of players coming together and winning. There were really no, I say this lightly, there was no superstars on that team in terms of when you look at it now, it's like, oh yeah, there's like seven or eight superstars. Back then, uh Stevens was known, but everybody else was kind of fresh, you know, and and it's amazing. So, just again to reiterate the point look, you can't win without culture. So, coaches, my question to you, what are you doing to build that culture? And then coaches and parents, how are you cultivating creating a player that is a good culture player in addition to a good talented player? These are things we can do starting at Adams. You do not have to wait till someone is 16 to start teaching them life lessons. I have we talked about many times. I don't want to go into that too much right now, but right that's part of the package. If you want to create somebody who's going to succeed in life and in hockey, yeah, I think not like I said, and I don't like to be critical of coaches because it's hard.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:25

It's very hard. It's a lot of time and money and effort. You know, you're you're going from work to coach these kids, and it's a thankless job. And and a lot of times kids are hard. Card kids, I've I when I did coach, I struggled, you know, because I've got a pretty high level. I'm expecting them to listen to me, right? Like, just listen. Like, can you guys not listen? Well, no, sometimes they can't, but I I that's true. My first retired, I was coaching Bannams that move into town, and my friend is running on the board, and he's like, You got to coach, that's what you do. You know, parents get involved, and my kids were small. I wasn't even coaching my kids. My wife is like, I got three kids at home, and you're coaching other kids. Like, come back home and help me raise these kids. But you know, I'm coaching Bannham's, and I didn't have the experience of raising 13 and 14-year-olds yet. I I was just a new parent myself, but I remember I'm just like, I couldn't understand these 15-year-old kids and how they won't listen to me. I I'm like a couple years removed from the NHL standing cup champion. I've got some nuggets here for you, boys. And it it didn't really matter to them. And I and I don't think I, you know, they say, you know, you kids uh what is it? Uh you know, they won't they won't listen unless they know you believe in them or care about them. No one cares unless they know you care. That that that old saying. Um I I think I was showing care, but you know, some of these kids, they were it was a B team, but they were in it to have fun, they didn't want all this hard coaching. Uh and I wasn't yelling and screaming, I was just trying to hold up some standards and accountability, right? Like, hey, you know, try hard on that puck, and what they didn't want that coaching and they didn't want to listen anyway. So, but uh you know, I think to your point, uh, if if if you're on a team that doesn't have good culture, parents, yeah, they need to try and work with their child and just say, hey, then you gotta control what you can control, and that having a good attitude, uh be a good teammate, you know, if your teammate does something good, tap them on the shin pads. Um, if uh you know, attitude and effort, it's it's a hundred-year-old saying, let's let's just focus on that and control what we can control. And you know, I know the team has some or lack thereof boundaries and guidelines and rules, and there's some you know, there's some things that uh are negatives, but if so, if those guidelines and boundaries and guardrails aren't in place, then you got to try and just coach your kid up um to be and praise them for just being a good teammate and praise them for doing the best that they can in that environment. Totally agree. I'm glad you shared that.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:09

Yeah, I I mean I recently have gotten contacted by parents who are really upset by the culture of their kids, and this is youth level hockey teams, and what should I do? There's not another team I can go to, the next team is an hour drive away. And and I shared that same advice. You you're not gonna change everything in a day. The only thing you can change is is you and your child, you know, and it if it's that adverse for you, if that's difficult, maybe you should look elsewhere, you know, if it's that yeah, if it's that bad, if it's really that bad, you gotta take them out, maybe. But yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:48

It's a little bit of a right, it's a little bit of a life lesson, right? Because you're gonna have you're gonna have teachers that are bad, or you're gonna have bosses and managers, bosses, managers and companies that they go into later in life. And it it's a it's a it's a skill to to start to navigate that stuff. It's frustrating when a kid is 10, 11, 12 years old.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:07

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:09

Toxic environment, you're like, why does it have to be like this?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:12

We don't, you know, maybe you shouldn't keep them in that kind of environment. That's not mentally healthy either. Well, for sure. Yeah, we didn't even teach them the right lessons.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:24

Yeah, you're teaching the right lessons from it. Like again, if you're gonna leave a program, look, I've done that. But I was very fortunate, you know, I wasn't allowed to point fingers. It was, it was, you know, I was taught that. Like, yeah, look, it's unfortunate, it's not working out. You're making this decision. How are you going to respond to the adversity of the situation? It was never about them as much as it was about how I have to handle whatever's happening.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:48

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:48

That was something my parents, I think, did really, really well, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:51

Right.

unknown 1:19:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:52

You do have to draw the line sometimes, and and I don't can't think of if I ever pulled a kid out of a bad situation, but we didn't really get to the the mental health um, you know, challenges that we were gonna maybe talk about. But right there's you know, there's some sounds like we need another podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:12

Yeah, it it really is so many wonderful nuggets. It's kind of it's a good level, yeah, to be elite level.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:19

It's kind of its own episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:21

This is we'll have another episode, Tom. Don't worry. Right, right. You're right.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:24

But if people demand it, if I just I I actually actually helped a kid last year. Um he was at a high school level getting bullied. And bullying is something that, man, that's a whole episode in itself.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:38

But I agree.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:39

If there's bullying going on, and you don't have the coach's support, and some of the this this player didn't have didn't have the coaches' support, and he didn't have and there wasn't um parental support correct amongst them either. This was like this was a guy that had moved into a new community to make a team, and the community didn't want him to make the team.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:04

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:05

And I said, Whoa. And he was there was some really bad things going on, yeah. And so I I I and his dad asked me for my advice. I said, My advice is we get him out of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:15

I I gave the same advice to him.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:17

I I'll make I made some phone calls.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:19

That worth your kid's mental, no physical health.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:23

No, I took a kid from he he was he could have played the season out in this environment. Um, and I said, No, you're better off going to this third. It was out of state, different community, and he was just a practice player. He got on the ice with a team, the team couldn't roster him. But a a friend of a friend of a coach who's a friend said, Yeah, I we we can take him, we'll find a billet house for him, and he can finish the season with us. He didn't play in any games, he wasn't he's got no resume now on his you know elite prospects or anything, but I'm like he can't be in that environment, he doesn't deserve to be treated that way.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:02

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:02

Yes, I was so mad, but he sacrificed playing a season and having stats and and you know, which everyone is so important to everyone, is what the elite prospect says.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:16

He's a human being there, right? That's right, he's not a stat. You are not your elite prospects page. Right, right and no, that's not a shot at elite prospects, by the way.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:25

And I think parents would know this, and there's not bullying is so is such a hard thing. I mean, right if your kid ever did some bullying, that's a terrible place to be too. Um does something that is perceived is called bullying these days. There's things that when I was a kid was boys will be boys, and now it's but still, um, by today's standards, if your kid ever, you know, excludes someone, you just be like, what are we doing, bud? Like, you know, or could be a girl too. But being on either side of that is bad. But it's important for parents to not force their kid to ride out uh that type of mental you know anguish, uh, whatever team they're on. If they're being excluded and bullied and it's no fun for them, and you're saying, hey, we signed up, just hang in there, just finish out the season. You got to be pretty careful with that philosophy when there's some when there's some that type of bullying and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:24

I totally agree. Thank you for sharing that. That's really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:27

Especially at that age, too. Like, look, when we talk about adversity and accountability, I want to just tap on this real quick, Tom, because for those of you who listen again, Tom is a massive mental health advocate. We're gonna have you back on for another episode. That'd be great just on that for sure. I I agree with you. This was this was your intro, for lack of a better word. But you know, here's the deal is is when you break down a situation, like let's just use general bullying. Let's just say the kid's 15, 16 years old. Well, they're feeling that and they're they're internalizing that. And this is where you have to be an adult and say, okay, how much harder is it at 15 and 16 to to deal with that than if you're a little older? Right. And then it's it's also understanding, I thought about being curious. Well, they're feeling it. Okay, they're feeling this. So they're feeling the adversity. All right. It's our job to help them walk those lines. As you said, Tom, sometimes that's got to get them out of the situation and then really make sure that they take a step back or we take a step back and analyze it. Why did you feel that way? How is your self-worth? How is your self-confidence? How is your self-esteem? Let's talk about why these are important, right? Because you felt this. And this is part of growing up. Um, and here's the deal. Tom, you said it, and I'm gonna say this 20 years ago, 15 years ago. Yeah, boys will be boys, girls will be girls, deal with it. Well, here's the here's the hard truth, guys. Uh, teen suicide is catastrophic right now, and it's worse than it's ever been in athletics. There are a lot of reasons for that. All right. A lot of things have changed, but if we continue to ignore that and say things like kids will be kids, we are part of that problem. All right. And that conversation needs to change. The stigma of that must be broken. Mental health is not weakness, it is strength. And as a community, we really need to start taking this on because every single child that has been lost to suicides parents have said at one point my kid would never do that.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:23

Okay. And we will have a full conversation, Tom, with you. I I again I'll I'll obviously let you respond to that, but we will have a full episode on this.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:31

So I think to your point, you know, I've been paying attention to it. I've known some families around Minnesota that have had to deal with it. Um different level, but you know, players that I played with and played against um have committed suicide after they're broken. So um it it it it reaches all levels, right? And all and all ages. But lately it's gotten it's gotten real young and and you mentioned it, a lot of these parents are like we had no idea. Did not see it coming. And so that's you know, that's where we have to start um getting getting it through to the to the people around them that maybe are you think parents are closest to their kids, but their teammates, right? It's their teammates and and they have to check in and and and and coaches just have to be real careful. Um, but again, it's not always coaches at fault. Um the the the the child could have you know some emotional issues at home. It could be multiple things, like you said. There's pressures at school, there's pressures at home, there's pressures on the team, it could be a culmination of things, right? It could just be a mental illness, sometimes it's just emotional, right? It's just emotions. Um and but at some at some level, that uh that that child, you know, when we're talking about athletes, it feels like you know, they're it's either hopeless or um there's no other solution. Right. You know, it's it's heartbreaking, especially when you when you see when everyone assumes that this this athlete had so much going for. Right. Oh they were they were going to Stanford or they were, you know, star quarterback or star on the soccer team or hockey team, and and they were popular, and they were you know the they were one of the cool kids. So it's there's something going on that needs to be addressed or or figured out.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:38

Right. And we have to have our eyes open. Um, and again, I am not talking about any specific situation, but statistics show, and you can look this up, I believe it's 98 or 99 percent of uh people who commit suicide did try and tell someone or did try and reach out in the weeks leading up to the action. All right, that it that is a known status, and and it's a it's a false narrative when people say, and I'm again, I am not calling out any parents. Well, I didn't know. All right. I I I believe that they believe that. And again, I'm not I'm not trying to go into that. My point is that there's always signs. It might have been the team, it might have been the coach, it might have been something else. So we as a society need to really open our eyes a bit more to this side of things. There is a massive stigma surrounding mental health and feelings and emotions. Um, and there's really there's only really one path forward with that. It is getting better, I will say. The conversation has absolutely changed. Um, and and Tom, we can't wait to have you on for another one with that. Now, to end this episode on a lighter note, I want to I want to let you know, Tom, and Christy will be happy to hear this too. You have broken Mike Benelli's speed record for speaking in an episode. That is the fastest I have ever heard him ask a question after an intro. Mike, you asked the first question. You must be inspired.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:54

Yeah, no, like I just, I just I I I apologize for jumping in on our podcast and speaking, but I think it's um I mean I think we owe you another one. I think, yeah, yeah. Well, no doubt. I mean, these are the kind of like calls that you know, again, I forget I'm on a call. Like I'm I forget I'm on a podcast. I mean, you're you're you're coming up with a lot of great. conversational pieces that we probably experience every day. I I I you know my wife says it all the time. She goes, You should actually get paid for talking about hockey because that's all you do is talk about hockey. And you know, I think it's but I think it's it's this kind of stuff that if we can, you know, reach a couple of people and and what I've been very fortunate about this particular uh you know medium is that I get so much feedback back. I love it. I mean it's just like Mike, you know, I heard you speak on this the other day and I really appreciate you bringing that up. You know, and these aren't people that will chime in or call in or or send even a you know they'll just be a private text and it'll be just a private conversation. But it's really just the ability to you know have somebody like you come on and give, you know, kind of your body of work as as a parent, as a player, as an educator, as an advocate and all that kind of stuff. And just it just helps everybody else that maybe doesn't have this type of a platform to you know feel like, oh wow, there are there there's so many other people out there like me. I don't have to go down this path like a sheep and just and I can I can you know plow my own path. And I think it's just uh and sometimes it's really hard for any parent to do that, right? It's it's uh you're just like I don't know these other people are they seem like they'd be uh they're the experts so I'll just follow them and and not they're not always the experts. You know they're just some people that happen to have the uh you know they're they're the ones that just happen to have the the the vehicle uh that that they're driving at that point but I but again I love what you're bringing up Tom I definitely think you know we could have a number of these and uh you know anytime you can you can you can throw out a little bit of knowledge about you know your experience and and the people you're around I think it makes us all better uh better hockey parents.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:56

Yeah well I'm gonna try to be sharing more and more of it uh going forward here. You'll be proud of hearing hopefully about it in the in the coming weeks and months. But um you know it's it's true like I I'd love to create a a guide that kind of teaches the the the parents and families I don't like it when you know the game gets more out of the player than the player gets out of the game that's a great statement. And and too often too often you know sort of questionable characters in the game whether they're coaches or administrators and sometimes you know the they're they're they're getting you know the the game's getting more out of the players and the family than the player in the family is getting from the game. And I want to try to switch that from happening. It's sort of like you know you don't want the tail wagging the dog right and too often we see these these these families and getting sucked up into into that keeping up with the Joneses and and doing everything extra on the development side and you know whatever they can do they'll do right and and you don't have to chase it so hard. It's it's you you win if you let it kind of evolve naturally you know because it's it's got to be a hard pill to swallow when you if you at the end of your hockey journey you look back and you're like man I either sacrificed too many other things or God we spent too much money and we didn't really need to spend all that much money or all that time you know all those times in the June and July and August when we were in arenas when we should have been you know on the on the shore on the water up at our cottage or doing something else as a family hopefully that doesn't happen very often. But I'm sure it happens a little bit you know where people say wasn't that great of an experience and and that's because of those things. It's because they were either chasing it had their had their their source of their their objective was sort of misguided or they got the game got more out of them because of unscrupulous you know hockey people and and didn't deliver what they paid for kind of thing. So you don't want the game to to get more out of the player than the player gets out of the game.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:36

That is a fantastic quote and a fantastic way to conclude this episode. I think I speak for the three of us Tom we're gonna have our producer Caitlin who's fantastic just schedule you right away for another episode hopefully before the year ends. Because uh again there's some nuggets there. I know we're both big into mental fitness and mental health and um I think this was a great opportunity to introduce our audience to you and then also to talk about some amazing things. But uh we are definitely out of time sorry no please never apologize there's that Minnesota Indy don't apologize. You don't have to apologize for that um before we uh throw it out if you've got a question for Tom or us or you have any comments on this episode which I'm sure we're gonna get feel free to email us at team at our kidsplayhockey.com that mailbag fills up weekly uh which is fantastic we love that you're loving the show and again if you're you're getting value from this and you love it please share it please please share it with your friends uh text text your friends put in your team snaps where wherever you feel people may add value that really is the mission of the show is to kind of change the conversation surrounding youth hockey uh and if you're listening you're part of that too so thank you for that and finally those uh those five star reviews really help us out so thanks for doing that uh but I'm gonna end it there uh poor Christy Cassiano Burns is waving at you if you're listening Mike Benelli Mr. Talkative on the podcast that he's supposed to talk on today Mike you know I love you uh that was a fantastic New York response and Tom Chorisky uh I'm Leo Lyus thanks so much for listening to this edition of our kids play hockey check us out at our kidsplayhockey.com and we'll see you on the next edition of our show have a great weekend have a great week enjoy your hockey everybody we hope you enjoyed this edition of our kids play hockey make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening whether it's a podcast network a social media network or our website ourkidsplayhockey calm also make sure to check out our children's book When Hockey Stops at when hockey stops dot com it's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life we're very proud of it but thanks so much for listening to this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey and we'll see you on the next episode.