From the NHL to Youth Rinks: Jack Han on the Future of Player Development

welcome back to another episode of our kids play hockey I'm Leo I is

and I'm joined as always my co -host Cristy cashier Burns and Mike Vannelli and

today we are thrilled to welcome back a guest who joined us in our very first year

and believe it or not that's a long time ago And this person has continued to rise

as one of the sharpest minds in hockey. His name is Jack Han, and Jack is the

former director of player development for the Toronto Maple Leafs, a longtime

contributor to the coaches site, where he shares modern and insightful approaches to

coaching, practice design, and hockey IQ development. I use his services personally,

cannot recommend him enough. He's worked at nearly every level of the game, from the

youth to the pros, and his ideas are changing how we think about teaching hockey.

Jack Jack regularly releases courses and ebooks to his blog the hockey tactics

newsletter again I cannot recommend that enough go look it up if you were a coach

it will help you and today We're talking about the bridge between youth hockey and

higher levels of play which is something I know you're all interested about how to

design better practices Which is something everyone should hear and what parents and

coaches can do to prepare young athletes for long -term success in this sport Jack

welcome back to our kids play hockey. - Thanks, Lee. Great to see you guys.

Again, lots of change since we talked. I think it was during the pandemic. So

obviously, you know, lots of change for the better. So it's great.

You know, I wish I were the director of player development. I worked with the

director of player development. Shout out to Scott Pellerin, who's now with the

Montreal Canadiens. But certainly, yes, you know, I was very fortunate to have lots

of experiences working now with kids. When I started with them, they were in minor

hockey and now they're NHL draft picks. They're going to play in the NHL. So I was

really fortunate to see player development from all angles and at all age groups.

So very excited to talk to you guys, looking forward to sharing some information.

Yeah, we're really excited to have you and Jackie you let it off perfectly because

I know one of the burning questions we get from all the parents that listen even

some of the coaches and the kids is is that question what separates players who

actually make it to the next level from junior pro or house league to triple a or

whatever it is I know everybody wants to know what your thoughts are on how do I

know if my kid is going to separate and get there where do we even start with

that?

Well, we're to start with that is the average age of NHL players is somewhere

around 26 or 27. So if for whatever reason your kid does not or cannot play high

level hockey at 27, then you have to rethink your plan, right?

If he's on the ice too much, if he's already having chronic injuries, if he's

having signs of, or, you know, she's having signs of burnout at 12, at eight,

at 10, it's unlikely that you'll make it to 27, right? Like if you run a marathon

and you break out in the sprint, you're not going to make it to the end, right?

And even like with the players that I work with who have all these aspects dialed

in, I want them to think about like, what is your game going to look like at 35

or 37 at 40, right? Like one of the players I work with is Alex Huang, who was a

fourth round pick by Nashville this past summer or this summer. And you know,

Alex is 18 now and I tell him like, "Look, I want you to play in the NHL until

you're 37 and then you can play with my son, who's two and a half right now."

Like that's your objective. 'Cause if you can play in the NHL at 38, that means

that you would have done a lot of things right, and you would have had an amazing

career and made tons of money.

Let me ask you, why as parents, then do we think that if our kid is not

performing at an elite level at 14 years old, that they have no chance of making

it? Or they are. They're like, "Oh, 14 years old, he's in, He's played on the best

teams for the last five years. I mean, why is there such a disconnect between what

you actually see, the actual footage on the ground, compared to what we all think?

Is it because of those 1 % superstars that make it through when they're 17, 18

years old? - So, I mean, the fact of the matter is like, whether it's hockey,

whether it's music, whether it's acting, anything else, like The people that we see

on TV, they're the best of the best of the best, right? Like if you take a

thousand hockey players, one or two of them may have a long pro career. Never mind,

you know, being All Stars of Hall of Famer. So you can do everything right and

still not, you know, quote unquote, make it. But you know,

there's a sort of a line in the sense that, you know, a lot of the folks that

don't make it, they end up with great life lessons, lifelong lifelong friends, a

love of physical activity. Maybe like in my case, I made the NHL not as a player.

I didn't come anywhere close, but I made it twice as something else. So obviously,

as you said, I worked in player development in the May Police Front office, but I

also worked in social media for the Montreal Canadiens like five years before that.

So I'm waiting to maybe make the NHL a third time, Definitely not as a player.

It's now it's way too late, but you know, maybe I'll be an assistant coach Maybe

you'll be an assistant GM or GM who knows, right? But what I'm saying is like the

target is both very very small if you're talking about as a player But also

surprisingly big if you're talking about like all the other things that go into

Making pro hockey happen Yeah, I think he raised a lot of good points Hockey can

give you a lot. It doesn't necessarily mean your goal has to be a high level play.

Like in the case with my own children, they, you know, either of them play a

hockey anymore, but you can tell how much hockey is given to them in the way that

they discipline themselves, their work ethic. There's so much that they gained through

all their levels of play, each level that is still continuing to give back in their

lives.

You know, Jack, that's a great point, Christy, in the swinging of this. We talked

in the Paris show a little bit about the ROI of hockey, right? And I said that.

We talk about that a lot on this show, the life lessons that Christy just talked

about. You said too that, you know, this is a question you get a lot. You want to

dive into kind of the way the parents maybe present this to you and how you

answer? Oh, So that's good question. Yeah, so a part of my my business involves

Consulting with players and especially their parents because obviously I've kind of

been on this path And I've seen it from a couple different perspectives and for

most parents They're doing this for the very first time, right? If you have a kid

who's very motivated talented, you know wants to get better wants to play at a high

level A lot of times the parents are sort of along for the ride and they don't

really know what to do or what to expect or what to look for. So I was having

this discussion at the rink with the parent that I work with and you know, his son

is, he's 17 years old, he's playing the equivalent of prep school hockey here in

Quebec and you know, one of his ambitions is to play division one hockey in the U

.S. And it's funny because like I think Division 1 hockey is probably the hottest

ticket in town in terms of like parents investing in their kids hockey saying you

know I can invest X amount for X number of years and then if they get a

scholarship then I will have return on investment right and I think it's funny

because a lot of times like You know sure if you if you get a four -year degree

paid for by scholarship, that's great But there are also other ways to get return

on investment, right? You can if you're a Canadian or if you're a dual citizen

Canadian University hockey is great for kids who are sort of in between D3 and D1

level Who want to go to an excellent school for for instance like I study at

McGill University Where we have both the men's and women's program with again very

high level of play A lot of times like these players graduate and then they go on

to play pro in Europe once a decade you have a guy who makes the NHL Matthew

Darsh, who's now the GM of the New York Islanders Was an alum and you know,

he went from McGill to a HL eventually to NHL. We had a really nice career

You know, a lot of these kids, like maybe you don't quite make it at the D1

level, but you go to school somewhere, you keep playing hockey, you go into a

program that you like, that, you know, hockey, again, helps you with the discipline

and keeps you motivated because you got to be academically eligible to play hockey.

So you got to get, you know, go to class and take notes and do your homework and

study for exams. And then after that, you can maybe go play pro in France, which

is a great place to live and play, right? Lots of people pay money to go to

France and spend time there. But, you know, France has they have a top division

that's very good that pays well. They also have a second division that you can go

there and sort of like semi -pro. But again, you know, lots of great places to

play. You can go to Australia where in the where in the summertime summer for us

but it's winter for them and again they have a nice you know quote -unquote semi

-pro league but good level of play you got some like former ECHL guys who play

there maybe you know they meet someone there they settle down they coach hockey or

they work there I know people who are in that situation so you know the return not

investment, it's not just the four -year degree, you know, the scholarship that you

may or may not get. It's, you know, getting you through school, but also you have

like 10 years ahead of you of playing pro somewhere else, even if you're, you don't

think you can play pro, you know, DCHL level or, or even, you know, SPHL,

whatever. There are so many leagues in so many interesting countries in the world

that in terms of whether it's life experience, whether it's meeting people, whether

it's actually earning money, there are tons of ways of getting return on investment

that way and not just with the scholarship. - Yeah, it's funny because every

financial person I know, we live in a, I'm in New York, right? So we're like

Fairfield County and Westchester and New York City, we got a lot of financial people

here. And every one of them would tell you that the best return on your investment

is to invest your money in a better way, right? But yet, every single one of them

that I know become hockey parents, like they just lose their minds and they forget

that the actual way to make the ROI work and go to college for free is probably

not to invest in your kid playing college hockey. It's probably the least, as far

as statistically goes, it's the least way to get a great ROI. So it's funny how

when we all become hockey parents and we say, well, my kid is going to,

I'll invest this money 'cause my kid is gonna go to play D1. And I think just

based off of the people you work with now, I mean, isn't that getting harder and

harder and harder because the landscape even for college hockey's changed, right? We

mean, we're paying somebody hundreds of thousands of dollars to play college hockey

now and it's changing the landscape of what what college hockey really was supposed

to be. Maybe talk a little bit about that, because to your point, I mean, you

could go to a different university, not play NCAA Division I hockey, and still have

a great career in hockey in all parts of the world. - Yeah, and again,

it all comes back to the idea that, you know, as a player or as a parent,

you know, who's taking care of one

time frame is different than the time frames of every single coach or GM or program

that you're dealing with. So if your kid plays U15, the time frame for the U15

coach is like, yes, they want to make your kid better, they want to instill good

habits, but they would like to win now and they would like to keep their jobs and

run a program that has continuity. So So their timeframe is maybe one to three

years. You go to college, you're dealing with a head coach who has maybe like a

five -year plan, right? But you have a 25 -year plan. So ultimately,

like that's why it's important to think about zagging when people are zigging just

because you have different responsibilities and motivators.

Yeah, I want to add in here to what it's keeping on the ROI stream for a minute

here too that I have seen parents Say that in front of their kids and it's a oh,

it's no big deal No, I'm like guys you just told your kid that if they don't make

NCAA D1 that this was a waste of money And it that is not something your kid a

needs to hear Okay, be Yeah, yes, Mike. It's very wrong. You know and and be

again, we've just explored. There's so many ways to get a return on this But again,

I also implore parents that maybe don't look at this as only a monetary journey You

know, Mike's correct. Go put it in the market guarantee you'll make more money if

that's what we do But that's not why we invest right what we're doing this because

we love our kids Because we can see the growth that they're seeing but when a what

a parent when a parent says that, excuse me, it really breaks my heart. And Jack,

to your point, the branches to be involved with the game go so far beyond playing.

You're an example of that, I'm an example of that, right? You talk about there's a

whole big hockey world out there. If your kid loves this game and is obsessed with

it, which I think everyone here is, they will find a path in the game, right? It's

not always playing. And even if it is playing, there's a finite amount of time that

you can do that, right? You still got probably half your life after this to find

some other things. So I think when we talk about ROI, and Jack, you're saying this

too, we always say about the life lessons, but you're right, it's expansive what the

ROI can be. But I would never, and this is just my opinion, I guess my

recommendation, I would never want my kid to think that if they don't make a

certain team when they're 20 years old they've failed the family. And I think that

that's just a dangerous thought and I hear it more than I should. And I do have

to give a plug especially for women's programs. The growth of D3 hockey is

phenomenal and excellent play and that's a fantastic option especially for for young

women to play D3 hockey. And you And some of Sophia's friends are now still working

in the hockey business. They're doing social media platforms for HL teams and NHL

teams. So their love for hockey has continued and it's giving back in many ways.

And a couple of her D1 friends, because she also played D1 hockey, went on to play

European League. So, you know, women, young girls out there,

a lot of great opportunities for you and hockey. - Yeah, so in the past I've

coached women's players who are now playing in Hungary or Switzerland. Like those are

great countries to visit, to live in. It's a different experience, right? Like lots

of people go to college and then they go and exchange. So think of it as, you

know, you go on a change for a couple of years, you make a little bit of money,

you meet some new friends, you play hockey, like it's great. - Right. Yeah. So they

don't have to focus, just my kid has to play. - My kid doesn't go to Penn State

and get that D1 money. - Yeah, there's so many great opportunities now. It's really

wonderful to see. - Now, I guess a little bit of a different subject, but I mean,

talking about, you know, when you talk about like the perspective of a coach, right?

And how they look at a player is so much different than a parent and an advisor.

And somebody that working with a player has to look at the player, like, and it's

a fine line, right? You have to juggle, you know, not like, don't worry about how,

you know, as a player, you really don't have to worry about how the team does so

much, the coach does, but you have to be able to work within that. But can you, I

I mean, knowing that and knowing how coaches feel and players feel and the urgency

to, I guess, build this "skill development" of a player,

what do you think coaches are over -emphasizing today and maybe under -emphasizing?

Where would you feel like a coach of a 15 -year -old or a 14 -year -old is over

-emphasizing that they really don't need to as opposed to what they probably should

be really emphasizing.

So first I'll address it more from the parents' point of view, or even from the

players' point of view. And I had a conversation over the summer with a player that

I worked with who plays Major Junior Hockey now and who is going to play pro later

on. And the first thing he asked me was like, "How many points do I need to score

next season to get

like, and there is a world where if he scores enough points, he's going to get

drafted, right? But, but I'm like, you're asking the wrong question here, because you

scored x number of points last season, which was an a staggeringly high amount of

points, by the way. And you didn't get drafted. So do you think that running it

back is going to like, like, like, what's that going to bring to you? So, but, but

the main thing is, The main thing is, yes, teams look at points, because points is

the most important stats in hockey in terms of who gets to move up, because it's

the players who are very skilled, the players who play a lot, the players who are

able to get the puck into the dangerous areas, whatever.

But for him, it's also a measure of how much are you helping your teammates,

because what's an assist? An assist is you do something, hopefully, and the puck

goes to your teammate and he scores or he scores, right? So you've normally, if

you're somebody who produces assists on a regular basis, you've done something to

improve the condition of the puck, and then somebody else gets to take advantage of

that. A goal is the opposite is maybe you've improved the puck for yourself and

then you score or somebody else improves it for you and then you put it in the

net, right? So if you think about it along those lines, it's like, what is it that

you're doing to put your teammates at a better position? And a lot of times at the

lower levels, it does manifest itself in goals and assists and points. But sometimes

it doesn't, right? Like, again, the game that I was watching yesterday, it's a, you

know, the player is a young defenseman, he's a little bit undersized, but he defends

really great. And when coaches see him, they think, okay, under size, right -handed

defenseman skates well, good hands, good shot. He's got to be an offensive guy. And

I don't see it because he's not doing that every shift. Like he's not out there

playing like Lane Hudson or Kell McCarr, like, it's not his personality on the ice.

But he defends really great, because he has all these tools where like, he knows

exactly where the play is going, he gets there early and he breaks up the play. So

I'm like, okay, well, you're not getting a point of game. You might be at half a

point of game, but if you stick with it, you get better and better. At 24, you're

gonna be playing high -level hockey,

and you're gonna have a role that's gonna be really important for your team.

So I can't speak for all the coaches, but maybe sometimes they have an idea of

like, again, small guy has to be offensive, right? Maybe they don't see the, you

know, a path where, you know, five years from now, that player could actually be a

really great shutdown guy or a character guy who wins face offs and plays PK. But

again, it's because in five years, he's not going to be playing on that team

anymore. Yeah, it's funny. It's funny. I mean, you literally just described, we just

had a big interview with Mike Weaver. And, you know, Mike Weaver in the NHL was

that player, right? Just was all through, as you talking for like, you got to be a

winger, you got to be a winger, you got to be a winger. You can't play D, you're

too small, you're too small. But he just had to be in the right place at the

right time and nowhere to take ice and when to take it and when to shut down

players and when to eat pucks. And like so, and then, you know, listening to what

you're saying there too, like his story was like, that was the story of, well, if

I would have listened to all my coaches that my career would have ended before

college. But yet, I, you yet, but I knew where I could play. I knew what I had

to do to get smarter. And I improved those aspects of my game. And I became an

expert at that one fundamental piece of being a defenseman. I think that's where a

lot of us as evaluators at the youth level get clouded by just all the flash.

And somebody has to get boxed, and somebody has to a man of his own and somebody

has to put him in safe areas where other people could, you know, have success. So

I think, you know, again, statistics and seeing that big picture for coaches, you

know, I guess that's like the glamorous thing, that's the easy thing. But I think

it's even harder, like what you were saying, Jack, right, that you have to be able

to, like, identify those players and what their skill set could be and then

emphasize that skill set still in the realm But I want to be noticed and I want

somebody to like me. So it's great that you mentioned Mike Weaver, because so my

first time making the NHL was with the Montreal Canadiens in 2013 -14. And so Mike

Weaver was a sort of a trade deadline acquisition. And so he's an undersized right

right hand defenseman. And the team had a need for that. And he really, I thought

he was a game changer, because on that team, we had PK Subban, who was, who was

one of the best in the world at that point. But there was no sort of guide to

play behind them or to play on the PK. And that HABS team,

they're really well in the playoffs, end up losing to New York in the conference

finals. And I thought Weaver was the most underrated edition they made that entire

year. And one of the things that I would do that year for fun was I would go

around the locker room because after practice, we, we, um, we had to create content

for like the social media platforms. And once in a while, I would get a couple

minutes just to look around. And on that team, there were so many undersized guys

like Mike Weaver was like, this is all like very generously listed, but we were, I

think he was five, eight, but in real life, probably closer to five, seven. I think

you were like six and a half skate. Uh, You got, you got Brian Gianta, who was

like listed five seven, he's probably like five, four. I think he, he, he,

he was, he wore like four and a half. David De Arnais, who was like five, six,

were like size five. Francis Bouillon, who was like five, seven, wears like, you

know, size six. So the first thing that I say to a parent and your kid when I

start working with them is you're probably big enough To play in the NHL you might

be big enough already to play in the NHL because you know the the Giants as the

weavers The the bullions at the RNA is like these are all guys who

Embraced a certain role and for Giants and they are made there were more offensive

players, but they still they were extremely gritty They were very good along the

boards. So a lot of you know, like size is I Would say less of a limitation than

your mindset. Because if your mindset is, I'm going to play the flank on the power

play, I'm going to put up 100 points a season. If the coach doesn't put me there,

I'm going to pout, or I'm going to change programs, you're probably not going to

make it. Well, I'll say this too. If you have a dream, there's going to be any

dream, actually, doesn't have to be hockey. There will be no shortage of people

telling you that you can't do it and giving you an intensive list of why you can't

do it, but that's part of the journey, right? That's part of it is everyone telling

you can't. It's the people that are telling you how to do it or how they think

they can help you do it. They're usually pretty valuable, but at the end of the

day, it comes from within. It's a great question, great discussion here, guys. I

want to bring this up, too, because I want to apply this to youth hockey a bit,

all right? Now, what's unique in my life right now is I'm jumping from a national

team to youth hockey all the time, all right. And I think something I'd like to

see coaches do more and parents too. I think in your viewing of the games, I would

love for you to do this. I know you're watching your kid and I'm not telling you

not to do that. That's just the youth hockey experience. You want to see your kid,

but I'm going to use two comparisons here to show you this can be done at every

level on a national team level. I have a player.

She creates time in space better than anybody I can see on the team. Very little

point production, okay? And she's a great example because I went to her and said

this is what I see, there's a huge value here. No one had ever told her that.

Kind of broke my heart a little bit. So I put her on a very good line where

there's two point scores on that line. And when she gets the puck, she creates

opportunities for these players. And if there was a third assist, it's one of those

situations, She'd be getting a lot of points, but to be able to see that value and

see that that's where you can build from And this is how you play within the

lineup That's a great example of this is how you get noticed You're not going to

just magically score 50 points in an international season and and get to the PWHL

Now adversely, I'm bringing this up because it shows you it happens at every level

I was just at a P we game and One of our defensemen who has I'll just say this

no shot in terms of like literally shooting the puck very weak shot but he is the

most defensive minded defensiveman on the team and we were in a situation where the

team we were playing was down puck was deep and everybody's kind of watching the

front of the net and i'm watching him battle at the blue line with a guy trying

to cherry pick and he's not letting them pass the blue line and i don't think

anyone noticed that so after the game i'm telling them that kid that was a huge

play because that puck squirts out that kid's gone and you recognize to be there

now again it's a simpler play but goes completely unnoticed because everybody's

watching the at that time the eight skaters in front of the net expand your vision

of the game we always talk about what you do without the puck that's kind of a

common phrase coaches parents when you're watching see what everyone's doing because

there are so many values as a player that go beyond getting getting 100 points a

season, which is very valuable. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying you can't, you

have to be able to have some production, but there's a lot of different ways to

build your game, right? Jack, I'm bringing that up only 'cause I think how we view

the game has to change. You have to have talent to make it. It's a prerequisite,

but talent shows itself in a lot of different ways. - Yeah, and I think that's why

I think hockey is such a beautiful game in in my view is because, again,

I'm not a baseball player and I don't mean to bash on baseball, but if you're a

pitcher and you have just great arm speed, you throw the ball 100 miles an hour,

then you do that. You're going to make the big leagues.

But again, you could be a knuckleball pitcher, you throw at 60, you might still

make the big league. But in hockey, that thing, it's much more obvious. You can be

a big guy who shoots the puck hard, who skates really fast, but then you can get

outperformed by a small guy who turns well and gets the puck off the wall, for

instance. There's just, there's many ways to problem -solve and hockey, and it's just,

it's such a rich sandbox for kids to express themselves. So when I look at,

and this is maybe more like NHL prospects, right, like beyond looking at their size

and sort of their fundamentals and things like that. I'm like, when I watch him, is

there an artistic component to what he's doing? Is there like, does he have an

intention, right? Is there a way that he likes to play the game? Like when I watch

somebody like, for example, Sam Bennett in the playoffs, he's all about chaos, right?

Like he wants to hurt you physically or, you know, with his, his skills, but he

wants to hurt you. He wants to hurt your goal. Definitely. Right, but you know on

the one hand, I think it's it's kind of it's not great And I wouldn't necessarily

teach a player play like that But on the other hand like I respect the intensity

and the intention that he brings to the game I think if you're a young player you

have a certain intention about what you're trying to do You've got to nurture that

because ultimately that's what's going to carry I love that you said that and I and

Again, you're using high level players as an example. I think when we get down to

the youth level, like again, you know, might, scored hockey, kind of 10 -U hockey,

that's all pure skill. Like we're learning the game at that point. But once you get

a little older, I would love to see 12 -U players start to have some basic

intentions on the ice, right? And parents, that might be coaches, something to talk

to your kids of like, what is the intention of this this situation of this drill

of why are we doing this right I think there's just too much here's the drill go

do it and we don't do enough explanation doesn't have to be long but of the

purpose here is this the the intention of this drill is to accomplish this and then

you can apply that on the ice your own way quick question on that check what age

this I don't miss answer may surprises what age do you think that intention Should

start to creep into the game for youth players, right?

I Personally think that that intention you're born with The job of you know,

the parent the coaches or even the player himself is or themselves is to Acquire

the tools that allow that that intention to express itself So I'll give you a

personal example When I was growing up, the first time I ever played organized

hockey, it was, I was eight years old and we're playing half ice. And what I did

was I was the biggest kid there, but also the worst skater there. I went and I

just stood in front of our net. I wanted to be the goalie, but not because I

really wanted to be the goalie, but just because I was so bad at skating and

handling the puck that I figured if I just gotten the way and made some saves,

like that was my way of like succeeding in this game. But what happened was, you

know, my first couple of years organized hockey, I played D, it was a stay at home

D, like I stayed at home to such an extent that I would never go past the red

line. There was a game where we were down by one, our coach pulls the goalie, I

was on the ice, I was standing at the red line. This is just embarrassing. But

what happened was when I was around 10, 11, 1112 I start realizing that actually I

really want to score goals, but nobody's really ever worked with me to do that and

So I had the internet so I was looking up drills I was shooting Pucks off ice and

when I played high school hockey I played forward because I wanted to score goals

and I did score some goals I didn't progress far than that. But again that

intention. I think if I go back to when I was eight years old, I would have liked

to score goals. I just did not have the tools, right? Or my son's two and a half.

Last winter, I took him out on the ice just in his boots. And, you know, he was

playing with the puck a little bit, but I know that in his personality, he's a

puck retriever, or he's a puck carrier, because like he goes to daycare, he doesn't

want to share. It's like, this is my toy. I'm not going to share with you. Or

this is your toy and you got to share with me. That's his personality. So when

he's going to start playing hockey one of these days, I don't really care what

level, but I think if I just tell him like, look, see that puck over there? That's

your puck. Go get that. And he's like, okay, I'll go get it. So that's what I

thought. Right. Don't you think that's like one of the one of the great things

about watching a coach? I mean, you're, you know, obviously doing this at the NHL

level, but it's even more crucial at the youth level for coaches to coach to the

player they have, not to the system they want. And, you know, just knowing, like,

you know, when you're building your team, you know, how do you, as a coach, pick a

kid that, you know, down here, it's April, right? April or May. You pick a kid in

April or May, and then in December, you're like, I can't believe this kid can't do

this, and this person can't do that. And I go, you selected them based off of what

you saw. You knew what they could do and what their strengths were, but then you

thought, what, you're gonna change them? I mean, isn't that what John Schroder -Rella

tried to do with like a Chris Crieder right back in the day, right? Like, I'm

gonna make you a shot blocking, you know, you know, eat the puck in the corner

guy. He's like, no, that's not who I am. Like, I'll never be that person. So I

think it's just a matter of coaches understanding and seeing what the gifts are the

players have. And then maybe we, maybe it's maybe it's our fault, right? For as

parents, we have to be willing to accept how a coach viewed us and why we were

selected on a team or not, right? I mean, it can't just be the top 15 players,

top to bottom. Oh, best, best, best, best, best. The rest of you don't play a

role, as opposed to maybe we should be picking teams and articulating why that team

was picked based off of the type of system we can play with the players that we

were given. - I mean, Again, it all comes back to time frames, right? 'Cause if

you're a coach selecting a team, your time frame is the next 12 to 24 months. And

this is why, like, if you're a player who, whether you're playing at the NHL level,

DHL level, the college level, I would encourage every single high -level player to

have a person that's gonna stick with them. On whether it's a skill development

side, so somebody like me who's gonna look at their clips and who they're gonna

work with from, let's say 15 to 35 or 15 to 30, whatever it is, someone who takes

care of their body. So it could be, you know, a physiotherapist, could be a

chiropractor, it could be a reflexologist, doesn't matter, but somebody, 'cause when

you play hockey in an organization, whether it's a college or a pro organization,

these people come and go, right? Like you might have the same coach. If you have

the same coach for four years, that's a long time. If you have the same strength

coach for, you know, five years, that's a long time. If you have the same therapist

for five, like, so it's good to have continuity. And I think that obviously the

most important person are the parents, right? Because you, you, your parents are your

parents, you have continuity throughout your life. So my main objective is I educate

the parents first because I'm not going to be around forever, but hopefully the

parents are. So if I educate the parents, then that knowledge, that perspective

gradually filters out to the kids and they'll do really well. I want to bring up

some of that work you do, Jack, because I'm going to change gears here a little

bit. You work with players, you work with coaches. What you do is much more than a

newsletter, right? So for the audience listening, this is the person that I call,

in addition to you, Mike, but this is the person that I call when I'm heading to

a tournament or I wanna look at practice plans. And I just took one of Jack's

courses. Again, there's no ego, right? If he puts something out, I'm pretty

interested in what he's putting out. And Jack, within that course, you had some

drills that really actually made me rethink how I'm doing my drills, right? So I

wanna turn the episode a little bit now to kind of practice planning and thinking

and just to give the audience a little tease. Like I said, I won't give it away,

but there was a transition element to the drills that really just opened my eyes to

this is something I should have almost every drill. So let's just talk about

practice planning, drill planning a little bit. We can kind of go from youth to

high level if you want. But I think the first question I want to ask in this line

is just about preparing for practice, Mike, Christy and I have talked about it

before. We have seen coaches up without a plan, I'm say show up without a plan,

which boggles my mind how you could ever show up to a practice at any level

without a plan, even if it's basic skating. So how much preparation do you think

coaches should put into start? And then we'll expand from there. Right. And also

we've also seen a lot of coaches just planned week to week rather than looking at

the whole season. Is that a mistake and what are some of the pillars that need to

go into developing a good practice plan? So I can't claim much credit on this

because I basically just absorbed sort of the perspective or the knowledge or the

wisdom of the coach that I've worked with. So whether It's Peter Smith at McGill

University, whether it is Adam Nicholas, who's now with the Montreal Canadiens. Like

recently I went to watch Rookie Camp and Adam was running a lot of these small

area games with the team's AHL staff. And I filmed all the drills,

which I posted to my Twitter feed, if you're interested in ever, you know, checking

that out. But basically I was thinking, Okay, could eight year olds do this? And

for like the vast, vast mass majority of these drills, I'm like, yes, eight year

olds, if they know how to skate and turn and stop, they can do these drills. And

I think so hockey is a game where I think we don't need to over -complicate things

necessarily. You know, we didn't see a lot of cones or a lot of apparatuses on the

ice. Players, they don't need a huge amount of memory to memorize a route that

they're supposed to take.

So, when you watch a good NHL practice, you can use a lot of that with your own

players. It doesn't matter what level you're at. So I think that's really exciting

because I think you can just straight up copy paste as long as you understand the

intention behind it. - Can you just maybe on the idea of a small area game.

And I think in my world, when I work with coaches and I say, oh, you have to,

like, incorporating small area games is really such a great way to engage players

and engage their minds and their bodies and let them kind of find their own limits

of what they can and can't do. And too often, I just see them put the two nets

out and they play three on three cross ice. Like, well, that's not really a small

area game. Like, to me, that's just, I mean, I don't know, that's the easy person's

out of a small area game. Can you just talk a little bit about, you know, how a

small area game is developed at any level, especially the NHL level, but how that,

you know, constraint -based learning and the ability to, you know, put different

roadblocks in there for the players, so that they do have to get around just being

the best player on the ice and, You know, beating the other three guys that aren't

that good. Sure. So I'll explain to you how NHL teams do small area games.

And depending on the level, I think you'll be able to sort of develop a feel for

how to adjust. Because the magic in a small area game is how the coach can

organize it to promote certain behaviors. OK.

So that's the real magic. Because so for example, you talk about three on three,

right? And like three on three, like there's, there's nothing wrong with that. Like

it's hockey. Plus there's fewer players in a smaller space. So players get to

practice whatever skills that they're using on a higher frequency, which is nice. The

problem with three on three at the NHL level is when you have good players who are

big and strong and fast and knows how to think the game, three on three becomes a

battle drill because the puck is constantly in a in a position where there's a

battle around it right so if you want to work on playmaking if you want to work

on identifying options and you're an NHL coach you should not play three -on -three

what you can do is play three -on -two because then there's an inbuilt advantage or

bias in the game where the team with three players they know that somebody's always

open, right? So when you start playing three on two, now you're starting to see

offense. Now you're starting to see these like small area two on one, then players

making like really smart plays and goalies getting some shots and some goals

happening. So when you see NHL players play three on two, like for me, that's

really interesting because you're now you're working on offense or conversely, you're

working on defense because the two players were defending they got to be really

smart and knowing like when do I play man on man and close my guy out when do I

have to cut passing lanes and play more of his own so when you start sort of

throwing your players off balance that's when you see adjustments being made right at

the lower level maybe you play three on three and there's offense that means that

your players are develop defensively because there should not be a lot of scoring

chances of three on three unless you just have one player who's way too good. So

that's the magic of three on three where you're manipulating constraints to create a

certain effect. So first of all, you have to understand what effect they're trying

to create. And second of all is like what levers do you pull or another example,

when I work with my players in a small group setting, so we're let's say we're six

players or eight players, and we're working on puck protection. And then we'll always

end the session with some sort of a small area game. And then the thing that I

like to do is say, you can only make passes on your back end, or you can only

shoot on your back end. Why? Because everybody knows that it's harder to get a pass

or shot off on the back end. So you got to hold the puck longer and if if you

want to hold the puck longer without losing it Then you got to use your puck

protection, you know postures So again, you know, it ties back to what we're working

on before or if If I want to do conditioning right then I play three -on -three or

maybe I play full ice But only half sort of half the width because now players are

they're skating up and down they're getting a great back skate in but they're still

the puck and they're still you know the ability to make plays and they don't

realize how tired they're getting. So it's all again it's all about the coach having

an eye for the game a feel for the game and you're manipulating these constraints

and once you're able to do that you can arrive with a very very simple practice

plan like for an hour and a half I show up with five drills or three drills in

two games, like that's enough for me. 'Cause then you look at how the players are

behaving inside the drill, they're not spending too much time at the boards, I'm not

spending too much time explaining things to them. I'm just observing and feeling out

where they're at and then making micro adjustments based on where they're at. - Yeah,

I think that's what Christy was saying too, right? You can't even get to that point

unless you have a season plan, unless you have a plan. Like if you don't know your

team and you don't look and say, okay, where do I want to be throughout the season

and when do I have practices? How many games do I have? When are my practices? Do

I always have two goalies? Do I, are my missing players? Like if you don't have a

season plan as a coach, then it's really hard to get micro it down to what's my

plan today, right? Because there is no rhyme or reason to development. It's just,

hey, let's just throw something on the wall and I saw it on, you know, I saw it

on the Twitter account and I'm going to do it. But why? How, and you don't have

the players to do it. Like, you don't have, you don't have the personnel to do

that drill. So, or in the skill level. So I think it's just a really a matter of

digging in and looking at why it's so important. You know, I think Christy, right?

Not to have a season plan, like a day to daily calendar, but like, what, who is

your team and what are your goals throughout the season? I have a, I have a,

- Yeah, like one of the things I always say to coaches, is, you know, let's have a

clue. And I don't mean that condescending way, it's, you know, I've seen coaches try

and run complex system drills and the kids can't pass yet. And it's like,

what I try and do as a coach is I'll look at a team as a whole and I'll say,

okay, what are the three to five objectives? This is the youth level that I want

to hit by the end of the year, right? And then how do I get there? So maybe it

is, we want to have a really great breakout, whatever that looks like, whatever

level you're coaching at. Well, you got to break the breakout down to what are the

fundamental skill sets that they need to get this breakout done. And what I see a

lot is, well, we're running the breakout every week till we get it down. But the

kids can't pass, all right? So you got to put some passing drills in. And then

also, we talked about intention, explain to the kids, this is why we're working on

this, right, this is the flow, this is the skill sets. And when I say break it

down, coaches, I literally showed a team last week how to catch a puck on your

backhand, how to catch a puck on your forehand, how to have your head up, how to

have your belly button pointing forward. The funny part is they got that pretty

quickly, right? But I see so many broken records, like, well, just pass it to the

wing, which is also dated, but just pass, we gotta have a plan in the sense I

want to have my team accomplish these three to five things by the end of the

season, and then you build your practices in a progression state. This is my point

of view, to achieve those goals. And if you get to them early, great, you can add

upon them, although you'll probably be winning. But I mean, look, these are more

thoughts than a question. I'm just posing that to the group. But to me, Mike,

that's season planning, is what are my goals for this team by the end of the year?

Anybody have any thoughts on that, sorry? Yeah. And what I would say, it's almost

like, it's almost cyclical in the sense that like,

if I, if I talk to a coach and the coach tells me, oh, like, we don't do a good

job getting off the wall, or we don't do a good job accepting passes on our

backhands, and we don't do a good job of staying tight to our checks. That could

be a U8 team. That could be an NHL team, 'cause those same things come back.

And so you're always like, it's not failure that you have to work on things again.

I think it's normal. - Right, completely. - So as you get better, your opponents get

better, the execution has to be quicker and sharper and more precise.

So again, if you're running a breakout drill and you're You know getting the puck

off the wall at the half while you're having trouble, you know with your wingers

getting the right spots That for me doesn't indicate failure. It just that's just a

normal part of the game sure and You got to be ready to do that every single year

because every single year the bar gets higher, right? Right, so it's it's not that

your players forgot how to defend It's just the bar got raised and now they got

it. they got to be a little bit better. - Well, and schools do this too. There's a

reason in the US we do US history like six times and we build and build and

build, right? It's not like they teach it to you in first grade and like, oh, you

got your history. I love that you brought this up too, Jack, because one of the

things I realized, everybody knows that saying, there's some play to this, but when

you hit that 10 ,000 hour mark, you've become a master of something, which again,

that can be debated. But I remember kind of the time period where I had played

long enough that I had built up enough muscle memory that people could show me

something and with a few minutes, I could probably figure it out. But I was like

19 years old, 20 years old when this started to happen, right?

When I was 10, 15, there's no way. So to your point, yeah, you're supposed to have

to work on it over and over again, right? And Right, and again, I'm not sure if I

said this, if I did, I was wrong. It's not failure if they can't do it. The

failure is if we don't plan and prepare them to build upon it every year.

And I think that that's sometimes where coaches miss, right? I don't like it when

coaches just show up. I'm a volunteer, I just gotta get 'em moving. Look, thank you

for volunteering, I'll never knock that. But it doesn't take much to prep and plan.

not only are there a million resources where you can find really good practices out

there, but just that intention. I think the intention's for coaches too, right? And

I think that when you're practicing, again, Jack, you said it so beautifully, the

things you think about taking a player away, creating transitions, you know,

manipulating those drills to expose aspects of your team that you can get better,

you've really helped me do that, right? And kind of rethink how I should be

creating drills, implementing drills, the result of the drill. Mike says it all the

time. He's right, it's not proper that every drill has to end in a goal or a

shot. That's not always the best thing. This is gonna merge me to the next

question. I'm gonna get on a soapbox again. The coffee's hitting me now in the

head, right? Which is, we gotta talk about hockey IQ. It's kind of,

look, if you coach youth hockey, you're seeing it. The hockey IQ doesn't seem to be

there like it used to be at least years ago. I talk about this every episode ad

nauseam. I'm seeing a lot of kids skate directly at a defenseman with their stick

in front of them and the puck in front of them trying to dangle through them. I'm

interested in your take on how coaches can help players maybe build upon hockey IQ.

Some of it comes from the player obviously a lot of it, but what can we do as

coaches for a practice planning standpoint to help expand hockey IQ. So,

uh, you know, you talk about exposing players, right? So exposing players means, you

know, giving them an opportunity to fail, or at least to have suboptimal execution,

because that's where the, the, the learning opportunity happens. So if your players

never get exposed, uh, either they're the best in the world or they're going to

start the the game and, you know, get hit in the face, right, essentially in terms

of their confidence. So I think it's good to have, to find smart ways to expose

your players and then come in with a correction or, you know, a teaching, right.

And the thing is, is that, you know, you talk about IQ, so IQ is intelligence and

intelligence is the ability to make finer distinctions. So for example,

my girlfriend, like she paints, she's a visual artist. And if I if I see something,

I can say, well, that's red. But then she can say, oh, yeah, it's that specific

shade of red. So she would be more intelligent than I am, because she's able to

make finer distinctions. Or if you talk with a chef, right, you I can say, well,

that's an onion, like, Oh, well, that's a Vidalia onion, and we and we use it in

that. So the chef is showing superior IQ in terms of making finer distinctions.

So in terms of your example with the player carrying the puck into pressure,

well, that player is showing a lack of finer distinction in terms of what to do

with the puck. Because on the one hand, you say, while this player is carrying

directly into pressure, that's bad. But then when Artemis Panarin carries the puck

directly into pressure, well, it's because he wants to track two defenders, slip the

puck out to a teammate, and all of a sudden they have a scoring chance. So they're

doing the same thing, right? But Panarin is showing much higher hockey IQ because he

has a greater understanding of the finer distinctions that make this play - Right.

- Or that make this play bad. - Yeah, I think that's a great point, right? 'Cause

we talked to, you know, when you're teaching defensemen even, right? And then

recognizing, I don't think a youth defenseman and probably not a lot of youth

coaches understand the nuance of identifying whether a player's coming in as a righty

or a lefty, right? So hockey IQ, you might say, "Oh, I can't believe that player

let that player do this." Yeah, but they're just not even identifying the fact that

that player could do that because of the strength of their of their stick handling

that you know their stick -sidedness like so those are like all these little nuances

here that we don't teach so much right the youth love we just say oh just do it

like you have to recognize that that player is a righty well how do I do that

like I'm in the middle of a game like how do I learn that skill right so you

know just you know as you know using your example that you know certain players we

can't always use the NHL as our teaching tool as youth because those players IQ has

accumulated over all this other stuff that happened when they were growing up and

all those learning processes that we're trying to, you know, just ignore like as,

you know, youth coaches was like, oh, no, you should be able to do what Panarin

does. Yeah, but do you know, do you realize how he got there? You're not built,

you're not building the blocks. So so so great. And that's a fabulous point, which

I think the most overlooked teaching tool is your ability as a coach to narrate the

play as it happens. So let's say you have two defensemen, Timmy and Tommy, right?

Timmy goes out on the ice and he fails to recognize the handedness of the other

team's player and let's say he gets scored on, comes back to the bench. Tommy goes

out on the ice, he's defending the rush, and then he forces the other player to

the back end, well, that's a great opportunity for you to say, "Hey, look, Tommy

recognized the handedness of the other player and was able to force the play into a

way less dangerous spot on the ice." And Timmy is sitting right next to you, he's

like, "Oh, okay, well, next time I just got to look and then realize that this

matters and just do the thing that, you know, works out better for So there you

haven't shown him any any clips, but you've shown him an example of a player who

like he can go on and do that Right now because they plan the same team yet.

They're at the same level there. They're in the same age group Yeah, this and at

the same time, you know, that's that's what I love hearing on the bench Like at

the same time then the fore is listening over and going oh wait a minute If that

if I'm gonna get drawn to my backhand, that's why that guys doing that to me?

Yeah, so you want to counteract him and be in a place where he can't do that to

you. So it's all that, you know, that's just, that's the beauty about coaching. Like

to me, that's where you really get to, you know, like get in there and say, okay,

I've watched the player, like the light bulb goes off right there in real time as

it's happening and that player can adjust. And then you can start moving on to

these other, you know, complex hockey IQ things. But I think just identifying the

identification is maybe the hardest part for us. So one of the things that I just

thought about is maybe players don't seem like they have as good hockey at Q

anymore. First of all, because they play less shinny, like unorganized hockey. And

one of the biggest benefits of playing shitty is you get to play with players who

are a little bit older than you, right? So if you're 12, you're not going to get

a lot of value in playing with an NHLler because again, like it's just it's too

far from you. But if you play with a good 14 -year -old, you're like, oh, like next

year, I want to be able to do that, right? Or, you know,

nowadays, like we drop our kids off at the rink, we watch practice, then we put

them in the car, we go home. When I played When I played hockey, when I played

high school hockey, I would stay after and do my homework and watch like the older

kids practice or maybe even like the beer league, like the alumni league, like watch

them play a game. And I would pick up stuff from them. So it's just like we have,

it's so easy now to get NHL clips, but conversely, it's quite difficult for us to

actually sit down and watch a game where the level is just a little bit higher,

unless maybe you have older brothers and sisters and you have to rank a lot and

you watch them.

And the same thing with women's hockey.

It's great that the PWHO exists now because at least it's better than showing NHL

clips all the time. At least we have some good examples. But for youth hockey, I

would love to see some, you know, D1 clips or D3 clips or, you know, players who

are just a little bit older, a little bit better because I think there's, it's more

actionable. Yeah, I mean, yeah, good. Sorry. I'm just support you here, man,

in the sense of, you know, I think about my own development. There's a lot of

roller hockey outside. No one was coaching us, you know, you don't go at the kids

straight 15 times because it doesn't work, right? You figure it out. I talk about

skating development put them out at a public session let them chase each other

around safely and then the last one was you're speaking to my heart here when I

was 16 and maybe I'm a nerd for this but my Friday nights were spent going to

open hockey with 18 plus players and they were all better than me at least to

start but man did I develop just playing with them playing with adults trying to

keep up no again no coaching, right? Guys are doing crazy things out there. The

score doesn't necessarily matter. That state of play is so important for the kids.

Everything is structured. We're not allowing them to think. I think that you can

create drills that allow them to do that. But you're right, like just just getting

out there and playing and having some fun with it. Man, that's a that's a

tremendous development aspect. So

Sorry, Mike. So just two, two building points on that is again, like you want to

simulate having players a little bit better, make it a three on two or make it a

four on three or so. So that, you know, one team is a little bit better. But the

other thing is like, now, now I'm going to hear while every parent, parent is like,

I'm going to look to get our, get my kids against older players. But there's the

other side of it, which is if I'm 18 years old and I'm playing against 16 years

old, Lee, and I just, you know, I'm struggling with a certain move. I'm going to

try it against leaf. Right. There's a bigger chance that I'm going to be able to

pull it off. And then once, you know, it could be maybe a between the leg thing

where I put the puck and you reach and I put it between my legs and I go around

you. Once I do it twice against you, I'll do it against somebody else. You reach,

I teach. Yeah, but I think, I think that's, it's such a funny thing you say that

because that's I mean literally what I'm thinking like well because that's where

confidence comes in like you know I'm just a big like everybody's like oh you can't

be the best unless you play the best yeah but if you never touch the puck you'll

never get better right like if you never get a chance to play it's great that

you're playing against all these great high -level people but if you actually never

get to play and be a part of it you're not gonna get better so I think to your

point is you know again you're not gonna play against eight -year -olds when you're

16 16 but if you're playing against a really good 14 year old you just happen to

be a little stronger maybe a little more confident like that's where creativity and

and and you get to like you know well i was just thinking like when jack saying

that like every parent right now is going oh i'm putting my kid in the adult you

know six a .m pick -up slot you know yeah that's not what we're saying at all but

it's but it's funny how you think about it too when you watch like real old guys

like the grizzled veteran hockey players and they're playing in an adult league game

against college guys and the college guys get so mad, right? Because these older out

of shape players just know how to play bet. Like they know position, they know

where not to, they're not going to chase you in the corner. They just sit there

and poke check you and say, okay, well, yeah, keep going, put your head down and

try to dangle me. So I think it really becomes, you know, that really becomes such

a great thing for everybody involved because they get to see that it doesn't always

have to be fast, fast, fast and quick, quick, quick, it needs to be smart, smart,

smart. And I think just knowing where to be and when to be there is really just

the beauty about like learning how to play the game. Mike, I'll just add on to

that. Yeah, there's parameters, right? Like, I could skate with those guys. That's

why I was out there. I wasn't, I wasn't, again, I'm just using myself. Like another

great example, I'll use my son, right? He's in sixth grade. He's in middle school.

And he's out there with the eighth graders and they're shooting on him, and when he

gets to his 12 -view games, there's a visible difference in his confidence now that

he's taking shots from 14 -year -olds on the ice, right? But that's age -appropriate,

it's team -appropriate. That's an opportunity for him. So yes, we have to say this

disclaimer, please do not bring your nine -year -old out to adult open hockey in the

morning that will not be good for anybody, but you can find opportunities out there.

Or as Jack said, coaches can get that opportunities by unveiling inconsistencies in a

team to help out. But yeah, it's great stuff to think about. I do think IQ comes

from that. And just the final point to kind of tie a bow on that, which is when

I was growing up in the summer, as my parents didn't put me in a ton of summer

hockey, like I play a little bit three on three. But the other thing is like, I

would go and shoot at goalie camps. So I would, I was 15 years old, I'd be

shooting on goalies or like 11, 12. And I would kind of talk to them about like,

okay, this is where I'm aiming, or this is like, why that that puck went through

things like that. And so I was 15 years old, shooting on kids who were way younger

than me. And, and that's kind of where my love of coaching started. Like, that was

my first time working with younger kids. And so excited to have me there. And we

had a lots of fun and when I turned 18 I started coaching high school hockey and

you know I wasn't going anywhere as a player but the ability to sort of interact

with other age groups that really sort of you know sparked something and ultimately

that led to me making the NHL. Yeah well the work you've done is amazing go ahead

Kristi. Yeah I'm glad you said that the work you've John, because as you said in

the introduction, Leigh, you gave us this great introduction about Jack. I would love

to hear more. It sounds so fascinating. What you do in the hockey newsletter.

So please fill us in, 'cause we haven't caught up with you in a few years. - So

I'm still on Twitter or X as is called now at JHANHKY.

Several times a week, I write a blog post on the hockey tactics newsletter,

you can just Google that. I have video breakdowns for paid subscribers where I

basically explain to you a nuance of the game that I picked up from NHL coaches or

players throughout the years. Something that I think is not very available in the

public sphere because of people who can work in the NHL are typically working in

the NHL right now, you know, I'm doing something a little bit different to get more

flexibility, spend more time with family and things like that. So yeah, so really,

if you want someone who has experience working with NHL players and developing NHL

players from minor hockey to pro, I would highly encourage you to look up my name,

Jack Han, and then fight my stuff. - Well, and I'll say this too, I get that

newsletter, I always open it, there's always a gold nugget in there and the work

you do buddy, like I'm happy to pay it for it to have those conversations with you

'cause you're worth every cent. And I'm gonna say it's all the coaches out there.

What I love about Jack is, and look, I also think this is what, if you're serious

about coaching, you're always trying to evolve your playbook, you're always trying to

evolve your understanding. His ability to get me to to rethink how I look at

practices and how I look at development is invaluable, right? And that's why we love

having you back on. It has been five years. I can see you still have your hair. I

don't. Congratulations on the kid. But we're out of time here, Jack. Thanks so much

for joining us on this episode. No problem. It was fun talking and we'll see in

five years.

Yeah, no, I will hopefully sooner than that. But again,

yeah, Jack's going to join us on the ride to Rolink parents. So if you want to

have your kids listen to a short version of this, make sure you listen to that.

But that's going to do it for this edition of our kids play hockey for Krista Cash

and Burns, Mike Vannelli and Jack Hand. I'm Lee Elias. Remember, if you have any

questions, comments, thoughts, something you want us to know, email us team

@ourkidsplayhockey .com, or there's a link accompanying this episode in the description,

click it, you can text us, leave your name, where you're from, and we will talk

about that in an upcoming episode. Enjoy your hockey, my friends. We'll see you next

time on "Our Kids Play Hockey." We hope you enjoyed this edition of "Our Kids Play

Hockey." Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever

you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or our

website, ourkidsplayhockey .com. Also, make sure to check out our children's book,

"When Hockey Stops" at whenhockeystops .com. It's a book that helps children deal with

adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much for

listening to this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey, and we'll see you on the next

episode.

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