Hockey Covid Questions Answered By Medical Experts from NYU

Final Thoughts

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Hello, hockey families and friends around the world. Welcome to a special edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. My name is Lee Elias, and I'm joined as always by Christy Cassiano Burns. And today we have a special episode about what families and professionals should know when playing or returning to playing to hockey. And to do that, we've brought in some very special guests for you. Both of our experts here are part of NYU's Langones team of sports health experts. Julia Drittel, program coordinator and athletic director, excuse me, athletic trainer at NYU Langones Concussion Center, Athletic Director is something very different. Where she is responsible for advancing clinical programming, supporting ongoing research, and developing educational programs for the community and healthcare professionals. She fosters relationships and acts as a liaison for local academic institutions, youth leagues, and professional athletic leagues. Julia develops medical policies, including concussion management, at these schools and leagues. We're also joined by Dr. Guillaume Gonzalez Lomas, who is an assistant professor in the Department of Orthopedics at NYU Lango Medical Center, who specializes in sports medicine. He's published several studies related to hockey. He's also the co-medical director of the National Women's Hockey League, as well as the head team physician for the Metropolitan Riveters women's hockey team. He's recently led an effort to craft a COVID-19 return to play protocol for the NWHL. And Dr. Lomas grew up playing hockey in Toronto and is a lifelong HABs fan, despite always living in a highly adversarial environment. God bless you, sir, for that. He still plays hockey once a week. Thank you both so much for being with us on the show today.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

No, it's our pleasure. So, but before we jump into the questions and the information and again all the things that we're trying to bring to the parents and the families that watch this show, could you both just give us a little bit of a background on NYU's program and how it corresponds to youth sports?

SPEAKER_03 3:09

Sure. Well, I can talk um about the relationships we have with USA hockey and the different youth leagues. Um, from my perspective as the liaison, um, we have two groups that we work with closely in Queens and Brooklyn, and we meet with them, do recurring education events, um, and help have helped with various policies, primarily concussion management, um, but also injury prevention and things like that. Um, and we've worked with USA Hockey for a similar similar type of relationship where we help them just deliver education to their coaches so that they know how to manage concussion. Um we also now with COVID-19 have kind of pivoted to make sure that our our partners and our um the groups that we work with are adequately prepared.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Yeah, and I I can speak uh just briefly to our hockey center. So we've basically set up a multidisciplinary center to treat hockey injuries where we have everything from uh sports medicine physicians, exercise physiologists, physical therapists, uh, orthopedic surgeons, so anyone that you know might be required for any kind of injury or concern related to hockey. Julia um alluded to, you know, concussion, obviously that's something that's you know always concerning to us. Uh with hockey, it is a contact sport, and we know concussions, you know, they're just they're just there. Anytime you've got a contact or collision sport, they exist. So that's an important component of it. We've got um a concussion center at NYU that has really sort of been leading the charge in developing protocols for return to play throughout several sports, but we've partnered with them uh for hockey. So uh hockey center has been a great venture uh bringing a lot of specialties together and really the kind of main focus of it for youth and uh and adolescent hockey players.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

I almost long for the days when concussions were the major concern of all of us and still is obviously a major concern. But as of right now, and this is the reason for the show, obviously, COVID-19 is something that you've all had to pivot to immediately to create the best practices, to create the best precautions, and to make sure that we're educating people on what to do. So, for our audience, the reason we brought in these two experts is uh mainly because there's so much information out there from different people, from different professionals and different fields that it can be tough to know where to go. So, what we wanted to do is bring together a really a non-political conversation with people in the field in hockey that are working on this on a daily basis. And that is why both of you are here with us today. So, again, this show is going to be all about uh having a safe return and also having a really uh good time when you're playing hockey, if at all. So, I want to jump right into what families should know about having a safe return. And the first question I have is is

What Should Parents Tell Their Kids About The Virus And How it Pertains to Sports

SPEAKER_00 6:04

kind of point blank, but is what should parents be telling their kids about the virus and how it pertains to sports? That's one of the big things that's out there right now, is that in order to have any conducive conversation about this, we have to have those conversations within our own homes first.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

I I I can start and then and then Julia, you know, please uh you know, dovetail. Look, it's this is a really stressful time for all of us. Like you said, Lee. I mean, it's been the longest, shortest year of all of our lives. And you know, as an adult, it's been difficult, and I think it's been uh exponentially so for younger kids. Uh, you know, just not having that perspective that a few years you know under your belt gives you. And so I think um along with that, I think for parents, it's very challenging to manage that. So putting aside hockey, I mean, just that, right? Just the mental health of our kids and uh our families is is something that we've got to be sensitive to. Um, I I think from you know, there's two ways to look at it, obviously. One of the one one is what we tell our kids, and the other thing is, you know, as parents, what are we thinking ourselves? So to address the the second one first, you know, the the really important thing to remember is we don't really have all of the information about this. And and that, like you said, I mean, this is truly a completely apolitical, not ideological statement. We just don't have all of the information. So, right now, all the decisions we make are essentially probabilistic, right? So it's just like when you get on a plane, um, there's a risk. You know, when you get in your car, there's a risk, and those risks are different, and we make decisions about you know one thing or the other based off of that. It's no different with sports, and uh it's no different with sports for our kids. So if you're gonna engage you know in sports and get back to it, you're gonna have to be weighing you know all of these probabilities. So, although that can feel very stressful, like, well, I don't know, you know, what what's the percentage chance that I'm gonna get sick or my kids gonna get sick? In some ways that's sort of relieving too, because it just means that look, all you can do is do the best that you can with the knowledge you have at hand and and then go from there. Um, so that leads into the second thing, which is you know what to tell our kids. And you know, I I think it's um this is one of those cases where I don't I don't think you can promise anything, right? You can't say you're not gonna get sick, but again, you can basically convey that same kind of um uh baseline uh approach to things. And so uh, I mean, right off the bat, and we'll probably repeat this a few times today, but the things that we know that help to um mitigate the spread of the virus of infection are wearing a protective barrier like a face mask and physical distancing as much as possible. And we can get into the granular details of how a hockey rink plays into all that, right? But I think those are two things that are somewhat controllable, and so and those are things that parents can impart to their kids as you know priorities. So, look, this is what you gotta you gotta wear your mask and you gotta try to you know stay as as much apart as you can, whether it's in the locker room or you know in the arena from anyone else, that's gonna decrease the risk of getting sick.

SPEAKER_04 9:26

Question for you about masks, because I get a lot of questions from parents about masks. Is

Is It Safe To Wear A Mask While Playing Hockey?

SPEAKER_04 9:30

it safe to wear a mask when you're playing hockey?

SPEAKER_02 9:34

Yeah, that's a good question. Um, you know, I most kids are playing with cages, so their heads are sort of in a relatively enclosed environment. So, you know, the risk of the mask getting caught on something is somewhat low. Um it is a loose-fitting mask is probably something that's doable. I think it's safe. Um I think that it again, the devil's in the details, so it really depends on what kind of mask. Um, yeah, I think if you wear something like an N95 or a KN95 that are completely occlusive, I mean that's their goal, right? To prevent any sort of air of non-filtered air from being breathed. I I think that's that's probably not advisable if you're doing uh, you know, you're exerting yourself doing a sport. Um, but generally a cloth mask, a fairly loose-fitting cloth mask, or one of those loose-fitting surgical masks uh should be okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

You know, it's an interesting proposition because like we spoke about before the show, I have I have a younger son in the game. He's only uh six years old. Uh, and it was funny because we were talking in the locker room, not in the locker room, the area we were getting dressed because we can't be in locker rooms, about how our children actually have never known a locker room because they have all just started playing, and this is the reality that they started playing in. So it's been somewhat easy to mold my son's understanding of, hey, we wear a mask when we go to the rank and we get dressed at home because he doesn't know any different. Um, I think about though those middle school-aged kids and those high school-aged kids that may feel invincible in a lot of ways and that this virus is not going to affect me. That's the parent that I think of a lot when I think about the kind of conversations that need to be had. And I guess it's just kind of down to each individual uh parent, but again, bringing the science that you just said of it's this is why it's important to have a face barrier. This is why it's uh important to socially distance. Uh Julia, I wanted to throw it to you. Did you have anything to add to that uh before we move on? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:25

So I think um what I've learned from doing educational interventions with kids for health promotion is they really, unfortunately, especially in that middle school, high school age group,

The "Why" Conversation

SPEAKER_03 11:38

they need a why. You can't just say, you're gonna do this because I said so. Um that just doesn't work in this generation. So you need to really make sure they understand like why are we socially distant? Why are we wearing the mask? It has this benefit, that benefit. Um, and you know, if you have permitted your child to play sports, you know, we were talking about risk of you know, getting on a plane last year has its risks, right? There's safety involved. Um, so you've performed kind of a risk analysis, um, who's high risk in your family, um those kind of things. So you need to explain kind of your rationale and make sure that they understand why they're being asked to do things. Um, and I think that um, you know, protect yourself, protect your family, protect your friends, you know, we were all locked down all-spring. Greens were shut down throughout the Northeast at least. So explaining to them that you're gonna wear this mask and you're gonna do these the social distancing and everything that we need to do so that that doesn't happen again. Um, and letting them know that like this is a privilege. We've kind of started to figure this out. So um, you know, baby steps, right? But let's not, let's make sure our community isn't going backwards.

SPEAKER_04 12:59

Right. And I think that's a great point, Julia, because I've always found with my kids when they were younger, if you explain that to them, you give them a reason, and then put it in a way that you explain to them that you're doing your part, you're gonna make a difference. Right. You you're gonna be like a little superhero by helping your friends out and helping out mom and dad that take that responsibility and you can actually empower them, and then they're gonna want to do it.

SPEAKER_00 13:25

You know, and another jump on that too is you know, I do a lot of work with team building and team bonding. Another great why, especially in that age, is you're protecting your teammates, you're protecting your team. So, and again, I know people have various thoughts on what mask wearing in general, but the idea being is that if a member on your team feels safer, the whole team should be buying into that concept, just on that idea alone. Keeping in mind, too, and I do feel like we need to say this, and I would like you too to confirm this that mask wearing is not just to prevent you from getting the disease, it's to prevent people with the disease or maybe they're asymptomatic from putting it out there to other people. It's a two-way street. Uh, it's not just about the person wearing the mask. That is correct, right? I'm not uh Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 14:09

I I love that you said that. I mean, it it is a complete symbiotic exercise. And what could be more team-building than that, right? I mean, we use uh so many sports analogies, and we're trying to describe you know teams working together where it's you know, whether it's eight guys on a on a crew boat um or or a hockey team. And and you're absolutely right, it's it's a small step that can prevent potentially the whole team from having to stop playing. So the stakes are high, and and you know, the but the ability to to try at least to prevent that, um, it's a it's a small step.

SPEAKER_03 14:47

Yeah, and that's one of my favorite things about sport is that you learn how to think beyond yourself. It's not about um what you want and I want to score this goal. It's like, oh, well, I'm gonna pass the puck because he or she will have a better chance of actually getting the puck in, right? So um it's learning about that, doing something for the greater good and really framing it in that way is you're protecting your team. And again, like maybe one of your teammates has a high-risk family member at home. So that's even one more layer of protecting your team.

SPEAKER_00 15:19

Right. Well, your family's a team too. Like you're alluding to this, Julia. I always say to the teams, it's it's we over me, right? In a team environment. And I and again, look, look, we're a selfish people. And I always tell people, selfishness is not always a bad thing. If I want to be with my kids other than doing my work, that's a form of selfishness. It's just we've kind of vilified the word, but it's a it's an asset and it's also a detrimental thing sometimes. But in a team environment, uh, I think mask wearing is very important. So I think we've hammered that home enough. Hopefully, people are over listening to that. Uh, I do want to get into some more of the logistical challenges that families face. Uh, the one at the top of my mind is just locker room access. Now, depending on where you are, what state you're in, what the regulations are, I've been to ranks that the locker rooms are completely closed. You cannot even get dressed in the rank outside putting your skates on. I've been in ranks where everything seems to be almost operating uh as normal with socially distanced uh behavior. Where do you two stand? And Dr. Lomas, I'll start with you on uh locker

What Are Some Best Practices?

SPEAKER_00 16:15

rocess or getting dressed at home. You know, what are the best practices? What do you recommend?

SPEAKER_02 16:20

Yeah, so this is obviously also a very loaded topic, and it's very difficult to just you know cast uh widespread opinion because it will differ differ depending on you know regional uh issues and infection rates and and so on. Um I I think it just boils down, and I kind of said that at the beginning, right? We're gonna be getting back to these two issues over and over again, but certainly the physical distancing part of it is critical. Um we we definitely know that closed environments, uh even though now it it appears that the virus may not live for that long on surfaces, uh, just sharing enclosed air can put people at risk, even though we can be as diligent as as possible as we you know, as we think we're being with mask wearing or protective barriers, the reality is it comes off once in a while. Uh you know, whatever you gotta rub your nose. I mean, it's just normal human behavior. So uh really limiting the density in locker rooms is ideal, uh, you know, as far as uh having the kids getting dressed at home and you know, like kind of mite-level uh hockey practices where they just you know drop them off at the rink uh and pick them up, you know, with without having to get changed. Uh that that is um certainly a consideration. And I would say, you know, if if uh parents and teams are in areas where there does seem to be a surge that and and arenas are still open, that's probably best practice in those places. Um I think that uh the the you know the thing that you can do to limit exposure the most, even if it's overkill, and that's something that we've done. Um Julie and I both worked on this protocol for the NWHL, and that's something that we decided early on when we were devising it. We're going to decant on the side of being conservative. Because the thing is we don't know. I mean, maybe it turns out that things aren't as bad as we thought, but maybe the opposite happens. And the last thing we want is to have you know a big spread uh in you know within the team or within uh even you know within a week. Uh and uh there's already there's uh a recent CDC article. Uh this is somewhat anecdotal, but talking about uh a hockey led to you guys may be familiar with this one, led to like you know, 15 out of 21 players getting infected.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:48

So again, look, I have been playing every week with the same guys, and no one's gotten infected. So I I don't put a ton of weight on anecdotal evidence, but it it's it's there, it's a possibility. So to answer your question, it depends.

SPEAKER_04 19:02

That's a fair answer. Doctor, well, I I have a question about locker rooms. Now, our local ring just reopened the locker rooms, but they're keeping the door open to help with ventilation. Does it make a difference? Do you think that's a good idea? And they're also limiting the number of kids in there.

SPEAKER_02 19:20

I think the number of kids probably has a more significant effect than a lot. You know, so sometimes with with this sort of stuff, we get into the the voodoo part of it and the wishful thinking. Um, I mean, to some extent, we see this with outdoor restaurants, right? Where, you know, now we're seeing in the winter restaurants with essentially enclosed uh areas outside with you know maybe a small portion open to the environment being classified as outdoor seating areas. I mean, you know, whether or not that's uh that's that's actually uh significant in uh mitigating the uh the risk of spread, it's unclear. But we want to make sure we stick with the stuff that we know, and certainly decreasing density in a locker room is the probably the most important uh thing that we can do to uh uh you know affect and uh and mitigate spread.

SPEAKER_04 20:12

You know, I have another question about it. I have so many guys, this is so great. I'm so glad both of you are here because rinks are all over the place, especially with allowing parents in. Some rinks only allow one parent in, which okay, I get that. But then they're setting up big screen TVs in the parking lots or allowing parents to look through a window. And if you look out in the parking lot, now you've got parents congregated around those big screen TVs, shoulder to shoulder, whereas the rink has 3,000 that can sit, it would make more sense. Uh and I don't know, I'm not an expert, but to me, it wouldn't make more sense to spread out in the rink rather than having parents huddle around TV sets out in the parking lot. And I get that you want to reduce density, but what's what's the best practice here?

SPEAKER_02 21:05

Oh, go ahead, Julia.

SPEAKER_03 21:07

Yeah, I think honestly that the airflow is so important. So it's in the locker room, like not be using the locker room. Um, you know, the harm versus the benefit. I I would close locker rooms, and that's my opinion. Um, and if you are using them, I think door open, again, it's one more small ask. We've all been in the locker room, we know that they smell, and that's because the air is still in there. Um, so you know, door open, maybe having a fan just to kind of circulate air and get it pushed out that door. Um, but the the rink is an enclosed space, right? So the air doesn't get to circulate the way that it does outside. And you have people coming in and out all day. Um, you also have assume like one or two entrances and exits. So you have people really close together there as practices beginning and ending. So it's also about flowing in and out of the building and just being outside, you have the air be able to disperse around you, although obviously you would want to maintain those six feet. Um so I think again, like the small masks, um, outside is better than inside, distant is better than close together. So it's all kind of like pluses and minuses. Um, but I would one part that I think people ignore is to and from the exits and entrances, and also using the back room um just for the general population, not the locker room. Um, and also limiting that. So if people are outside, they're less likely to just like go um, you know, to a potentially um crowded area.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

You know, one thing I do want to bring light to in response to all of this um is something that Dr. Lomus, you said this, and Julia, you said this too. Um, and I I'm a physician advocate in the sense of you said multiple times we do not have all the answers. There are times we don't know. And I think that a lot of people out there are just expecting you should know this. And the truth is, I first off, I think it takes a lot of guts, and I think it's it's a a compliment to you that you're willing to say, hey, I don't have the answers, because I think that's the right thing to do here. To tell a lot of people, we don't know everything about the coronavirus. And if you look back all the way to March, we've had different guidance at different times when cases are up, when cases are down. So this is a very living, fluid environment. And Julia, to your point, the regulations in the rink, outside the rink, they're gonna change based on your state, based on how many people uh are testing positive for the virus, based on the information that they have in that arena. And then it comes down to even different things like different businesses. Some rinks are privately owned, some rinks are municipals, municipalities, excuse me. One of my favorite words to try and pop out there. Right? So and again, I think that's a it's it's a key point here is that, and again, this is not a negative thing that a physician and an athletic athletic trainer are saying, hey, look, we don't have all the answers to that. I think that's an asset for the for the listener, for the viewer of this show, is to not go into it. Like, why don't I have a magic button that I can press and we know everything? Uh, and it's and it will continue to change as we head into hockey season, which also happens to be cold and flu season, right? So uh I just I wanted to give you guys a chance to talk about that as well, because I think it's important for people to understand that you know physicians are doing everything they possibly can here within their power, but it does not mean they're gonna come up with a a perfect solution for every scenario and every situation.

SPEAKER_02 24:34

Yeah, I think that's true. And I and I think look, we're we're all um vulnerable to the this sort of bias, right? I mean, when we to use the uh airline, you know, the flying analogy, you know, we expect safety, we expect to have our flight leave on time. It really bothers us when it doesn't, you know, and and if you think about the complexity of that whole thing, right? Transporting 250 people, you know, 3,000 miles or whatever the case may be, right, and doing it like to the minute. Um, and so I mean, look, we're we're very fortunate to be living in a society that just has the resources and the organization to create um to meet our expectations. Right. But like you said, this is different than anything we've ever encountered in our lifetimes. I mean, this is, you know, they talk, the epidemiologists talk about one in a hundred years type pandemic that really spreads globally and also is contagious and um uh you know, and lethal enough to be really worrisome. Uh, I think getting back to what we were talking about earlier, and Julie alluded to it, it it this is a case where we sort of have to shoulder some of the responsibility and not necessarily expect that all the right answers are going to be out there for us and we, you know, just and we're passive recipients of them. So take the responsibility to make sure that the team is as safe as possible, regardless of what the rank regulations or the state or local regulations are. You take the responsibility to make sure that we limit the spread. Because if a bunch of kids on the team get sick, whether or not that illness ends up being significant, the team's gonna stop playing. I mean, that's the most likely scenario. And if a few teams get sick, the league will shut down. I mean, that that's the reality. So, regardless of what you think, and we all have different opinions, but regardless of what you think, do the most conservative thing to try to mitigate the spread of it. And so, again, if that's um having a kid dress at home, that it might have to be that way. You know, this isn't forever, it's not forever. That is one thing we can bank on. I mean, it's whether it's a year or two years, you know, you can expect that in 2022 things will be much closer to normal. So it is really uncomfortable, it's very onerous, and I'm personally very sensitive to that, you know, for the players, the parents, everybody involved. But it's it's just we all have to kind of shoulder part of it and and get through it. And in the end, it'll be in our rearview mirror, you know, we'll be better for it.

SPEAKER_04 27:19

Right. It is a buffet of uncertainty this season. We get that. There are some things that we can control. It's really important for a kid to get a flu shot because the coronavirus symptoms are mirror the flu.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

Or without coronavirus, it's important. Right.

SPEAKER_04 27:33

Exactly. Um, now I let me ask you this, and this has come up a couple of times. Let's say your kid has a runny nose. Uh, hockey practices tonight. Mom, I feel fine. I just have a runny nose. Do you keep the kid home?

SPEAKER_02 27:49

Yeah, I mean, now you're asking the hardball questions.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

Um, that's what we do here when our kids play hockey. You know, is the hardball question?

SPEAKER_04 27:57

Because some parents, some parents are gonna say, no, I'm gonna keep you home. Let's make sure you're okay. Let's see if you have any other symptoms. And other parents are gonna say, Oh, it's just a runny nose, let's go. And then it turns out that the child may have asymptomatic COVID.

SPEAKER_02 28:13

That's right, or minimally symptomatic COVID. I look the when we um for our protocol for the NWHL, these are obviously you know, older players, you know, they're they're uh post-college, but part of the screening that we do before every practice is, and this will be done before every game, is they have to answer a question about whether or not they have symptoms that are cold-like. The the answer here, in my opinion, is an absolute. You don't take the kid to practice. Those are symptoms, those are symptoms of uh of a cold. Coronavirus is a is a is a cold, really. It's a it's a cold on steroids. Um, and we know that kids tend to have mild symptoms in general. So that's one where, and I and I do think that this is where parents can communicate with the league, and because you know, big question comes up, especially at the elite levels, you know, well, I don't want my kid to, you know, maybe miss out on being part of a select team or um getting picked for a team because they're they're doing, you know, we're doing our due diligence, we're being responsible. So I think that they have to establish that with the league so that no kid gets punished because they miss a game or practice, because there's a even a possibility that they might be sick.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Right.

SPEAKER_02 29:27

Um, and so that's that's again something that we can control, right? That's something, and maybe that puts some families at ease that they're not gonna miss an opportunity, you know, to have their kids showcased because of because of the pandemic.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

Yeah, Dr. Lemis, I think that's a great point. And Christy, I'm with you. Like, I I empathize with with all the questions you're asking. Even I've been in an arena and thought, like, why are we not sitting in here? This place is gigantic and so much uncertainty.

SPEAKER_04 29:55

It just seems counterproductive that you've got these parrodled out in the parking lot shoulder to shoulder, watching on these big screens, and you've got an empty arena that can see 3,000 and only one parent allowed.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

And and just to give some even more context, Dr. Lomas and Julia, to what you're talking about, in and without naming any organizations in my local area, my organization has everything in place that you just said, which is temperature checks when you walk in the building. We have to film out a form every single time we we are to appear at the rink. We've all, as parents, said to each other, again, I uh my kid's on the younger side, so we're not dealing with select teams just yet. But if your kid feels in any way sick or you feel in any way sick, just stay home. Uh now, another local uh organization has just been on probation for two weeks because they had no precautions in place, and a coach and player showed up to a game after after testing positive for coronavirus, which is almost unthinkable, but it shows you that this will happen when you deal with the human element, this will happen. So I think one thing I want to kind of just organize here in terms of thoughts, because we are trying to provide and we are answers for everybody, is that I think there is a lot of individual accountability here that we need to speak about. While all the parents, all the players, all the coaches, we're all looking for guidance. At the end of the day, if it's a situation, Christy, you just said it, my kid has a runny nose. As a parent, I have to make that call to tell my son or daughter, look, because of what's going on in the world, this is the reality, we're not going. We wouldn't want to give your teammates a cold anyway.

SPEAKER_01 31:26

That's what I was gonna say.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

Right? Yeah. Um, so we're gonna follow these precautions. And I have to say this. I know, look, I've played hockey at an elite level, I've coached at an elite level, uh, and now I'm a parent in the game. I know that pulling feeling when it's a big game or it feels like it really matters, and I would just suggest this is me speaking as a coach and an administrator, you take a step back and really look at your priorities. You could you could literally be putting someone else's family's life in danger for a game. And I just personally don't believe that to be worth it at this point. You saw the precautions the NHL took to keep people away from their own families. You see the precautions the NWHL is taking, the college leagues are taking. Uh, I think it's just very important to mention that. That there's a personal accountability on all of this, and this goes beyond hockey, obviously, just to kind of think, okay, where do I stand with this? Is it potential that I might accidentally spread something? Um, switching gears a little bit here, I do want to ask Julia this question. I was watching another presentation you were doing with uh with on football, and you spoke a lot about, hey, look, just get your kids outside and getting them moving.

Continuing Development With Virus In Mind

SPEAKER_00 32:33

Um, so in the in the hockey realm, I wanted to say that there are a lot of alternatives to being on the ice uh with practicing as a team or even individually, is getting outside to play hockey. You know, hopefully the weather is not horrendous, but that that is a really healthy alternative for just being in the rink at any time, correct?

SPEAKER_03 32:53

Again, yeah, it's all about airflow. So outside, if you can do it, it's better. Um, one of my favorite examples, um, and you know, this was just a space issue, but I worked a lot with wrestling, and a gym didn't have enough space for all of the mats, so we just moved one in two actually into the parking lot. Right. And the wrestlers just wrestled on somebody. Um, and then and it was funny, it was just another match. Um, and then it kind of also translates to hobby. I mean, if there's a pond, what could be more fun than that? Um, but also if there's a grower or something like that. And then there's an infinite number of things that hobby players can do just in dry land practice.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

Right.

SPEAKER_03 33:36

And um, even moving one of your practices to a virtual team lifting session or just providing them some sort of strength training regimen. There's so many different variations that you can do. And I think also having to be creative can make the game more fun. Obviously, it you know, it's a logistical, sometimes nightmare for the coaches to have to really rethink how you approach the season. But I mean, you you can make it fun.

SPEAKER_01 34:05

Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 34:06

And even on the college level, my daughter plays college hockey, uh, they've been practicing pretty regularly, but in small quads with the kids that they live with or are around all the time. So they had to think creatively and they've been able to get out on the ice. We don't know what kind of season we're gonna have. They're saying possibly a January startup. We're hoping for that. But as you said, Dr. Lomas, it's it's up in the air. We don't know. There's so much uncertainty here. But at least for now that they're able to control the situation and keep the kids healthy, they're on the ice and they're practicing. And that's they love it. And they're not even complaining.

SPEAKER_03 34:46

And that's what we've heard too with Dr. Lomas and the NWHL is you know, it's just one extra hurdle of having to do the temperature screen and the symptoms. And, you know, we're trying to encourage them to not travel and go out to eat and all of those things. Um, and it's you know, it's a it's an ask. But what we've heard is that the athletes are just so excited to be back on the ice. So it's those little things that you just do for the sake of the team for a short amount of time so that everyone has the benefit of playing.

SPEAKER_02 35:16

Yeah, and Chrissy, just to kind of, you know, you were essentially describing this, but the way that we've uh termed it sort of uh alliteratively is bubble without a bubble. So just you know, the pros have the resources to actually house, you know, the players in hotels and really separate them. Obviously, most you know, most leagues can't do that, but you can do your best to kind of create a virtual bubble, right? So limit the the number of contacts you have outside of of the rank, just do you know, do your due diligence during the day. And now that that obviously gets tough with school. I mean, that's a whole other conversation, uh, and that's gonna differ depending on where somebody is, but just having that as a mindset. Like I'm I'm trying to I'm trying to protect myself and my teammates, and every decision I make, I'm I'm trying to just decrease the risk. So over thousands and tens of thousands and millions of little interactions, right? That really adds up. That adds up to decreasing the risk quite a bit.

SPEAKER_00 36:21

You know, I was gonna say too, uh, just echoing Julia what you said about being outside, uh, and these are great points all around, is that for all you rough and tough parents out there that were talking about walking up the hill both ways to school and having to brave the elements when you were a teenager and the below freezing temperatures, this is your chance to tell your kids to get off the Nintendo and go outside and brave those elements and learn how to be a kid again. But uh, these are all phenomenal thoughts. Um, I do want to transition here also. We've been talking a lot about families. I do want to talk about professionals uh in rinks in general as well. Because I know we have people listening that do that, but I think it's also very important for parents to kind of know what these places should be doing to make sure that it's a safe environment for their kids. So it's okay to repeat yourself here. Um, but what are some of the basic, in

What Steps Can Rinks And Organizations Take To Ensure Safety?

SPEAKER_00 37:08

your opinion, some of the basic steps organizations, by organizations, I mean rinks or or team organizations should be taking uh right now to make sure it's a safe environment. And again, this this can be very broad, but in your opinion, I'll start with you, Dr. Lomas, just what are the basic things that everybody should be doing right now to make sure it's a safe environment?

SPEAKER_02 37:26

Yeah, I I think we've we've kind of um hit some of these points earlier, but limiting the the population density in a rank, that's really important. Um and and sometimes again, these are just very normal human um kind of I you might want to call them errors in judgment, but just like uh it's just it's just very normal to say, hey, look, we're gonna go all out with you know certain restrictions for players, but then we don't really think about what we're doing around the snack bar, right? Right? So and then and then you have a situation that Chrissy described outside. I mean, I've heard stories like that where you know the players have a uh strict plan of action, they're in ventilated locker rooms, no more than you know, six to ten kids per locker room, but then the there's 30 parents huddled around the you know the snack bar. So what's that doing? So I think just really kind of looking at the entire the entire um, I guess, the the the dynamic of a practice or of a game. So that includes from beginning to end, Julia had mentioned, you know, the entrance and exits, just making sure that you know there is some kind of monitoring. And I that can be difficult to do, but uh that's that's definitely important. So I think that's one thing. I also think being fairly strict with you know regulations, so as far as mask wearing are, I mean, don't have to have police there, but maybe someone to remind you know people. You know, obviously this does require buy-in from parents and and people who work at the rink, but I I do think that just having somebody there to you know remind people if they just forget. It happens, you know, sometimes to see someone you haven't seen for a long time, hey, I want you to see who I am, mask comes off. Um so so little things like that can go a long way. We want to keep it positive. You know, there's nothing here that that should be punitive, but um I think those are two things that can kind of help uh outside of the hockey, you know, and and the player specific regulations.

SPEAKER_04 39:27

Right. And um, how diligent should parents be now

How Diligent Should Parents Be About Washing Gear?

SPEAKER_04 39:30

with washing the gear and keeping everything sanitized?

SPEAKER_02 39:35

Great question. Julia, you want to take this?

SPEAKER_03 39:37

That's a really good one. Um well, actually, the to go back really quick to the previous question, something occurred to me in the middle of uh what Dr. Lomas was saying with the screens uh in the parking lot. Can they put that feed online? And then the parents can watch in their cars on a tablet, maybe they create a Zoom meeting and have multiple cameras across the ring. Um, you don't have to have a hardwired television. Um, everyone has their smartphone. And then even, you know, the parent that doesn't drop them off at practice can watch too. So that's actually something that just occurred to me and I think would be a really good modification. Um and then I'm sorry, I forget your actual question.

SPEAKER_04 40:22

Diligence and cleaning the gear. Um, you know, some parents let that gear sit in the bag, and that's one of the reasons why hockey gets such a bad reputation for smelling horrible.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

It's an aroma. It's an aroma. Loved by many, hated by others.

SPEAKER_04 40:39

I just can't stand it anyway. So this is the year where you really gotta you really have to step it up when it when it comes to cleaning the gear.

SPEAKER_03 40:47

Yes. Um, so as an athletic trainer, that was always something um that I strict um was very strict with with the players that I worked with, um, whether that was um an underground with the Delaware hockey team, but also even my husband, we um used to live in a small bedroom, a one-bedroom apartment. And I said, sure, you can start playing hockey, but I don't want to smell it. So whether that means you pay for a locker at the rink or you know, figure it out, but the smell is germs. So for me, it was just like it's not safe for you to be like covered in these bacteria. So he actually got this little blow dryer with a tent around it that he can hang all up his ear at the end and it dries it out, which keeps the bacteria from growing. Um, but I would say we should always be super diligent about cleaning. And um, a lot of it's easy to just throw the stuff in the bag, zip it up, leave it in the garage, and walk away. Um, but also by cleaning it, it gives you an opportunity to inspect it. So is the glove torn a little bit? Is the padding broken? Um, then you need to replace the glove. Or, I mean, even the hockey helmet, as someone who's employed by a concussion center. Um, you have to make sure that the helmet still fits and that it's in good condition and the padding isn't torn. So you can also see you know this extra step of having to clean everything as an opportunity to make sure that you are keeping the kid safe.

SPEAKER_00 42:19

You just reminded me of a funny story. Um, you know, in my son's age, there's no goalies yet. So typically what they do is they bring the goalie in, goalie gear in, and someone tries it every week. And I was talking to one of the administrators, like, yeah, I was thinking about bringing the goalie gear. I was like, I'm not putting my kid in that goalie equipment this year. You're crazy if it's gonna go around. But I and again, this speaks to both of you. Those are those little tiny human oversights. Sometimes he didn't mean anything by it. He wasn't trying to cause any problems, but it's like we hadn't we didn't think about that. Of like we can't have different kids wearing the same equipment each week. Um, you know, again, another question, this kind of deals with organizations, but also parents as well. And it's it's for children or or or families that have had the coronavirus and are through it, all right. Um, what

Safe Returns For Individuals Who Have Had COVID?

SPEAKER_00 43:01

kind of precautions, again, this is kind of a broad answer, and I understand that, and I appreciate you you both answering the best you can. If someone has had COVID-19, they've quarantined, they've gone through it, what is the safe return to play for that child? Now, and I'm I want you to answer this both on the obviously the child who has it, but also the parents and the rank that that child's going to, because I could already see like, why is he here if he had it? Right? What what is the correct plan for someone that is has and has gone through COVID-19?

SPEAKER_02 43:30

It's yeah, so that and that's a great question. And this is a source of confusion for a lot of people, because you know, once someone has had it, you know, it's kind of like the scarlet letter here, like it's okay, you know, stay away. Um the reality is it's really more of an issue, you know. Let's assume hopefully that that person has very mild or no symptoms. I mean, that'd be but but it's more of an issue in terms of returning to play for the athletes that have been exposed than for uh whoever has had it. So, to back up a little bit, you know, if contact tracing is available, that is critical. So if someone on a team does have a positive test and they did play or practice with the team in the last few days, those all of those players should quarantine. Right. And essentially by default, the family should as well. And the quarantine is gonna, you know, that's gonna differ depending on the state, but you really you want to just try to limit you know further exposure to other people. Once you've had it, there's very little evidence that after a positive test, um and and if someone has shown symptoms, you know, even if they're mild, there's very little evidence that they are contagious after about 10 days. That that's that's CDC, and that and that's now there's a fairly robust body of literature that supports that. People can still test positive well after that. There's reports of people testing positive for months, but they don't seem to be contagious. So what happens is most of the testing is this PCR uh type of testing, and it may pick up traces of dead virus. So that's why some people may be testing positive, you know, despite no longer being contagious. But once there is a positive test, if you wait, if you want to be in very safe, wait two weeks, that's what we have in our protocol. At the NWHL. And then after that, it's really not even about testing. I mean, that player is not contagious and they can return to play. And then depending on how bad the symptoms were, it would just depend on, you know, did they have respiratory symptoms? You know, if so, you'd want to ease them back into aerobic sports. You know, hockey is is a you know an anaerobic threshold uh sport, a lot of uh exertion. So, you know, maybe a couple practices, they're just you know, they just skate a little bit, you know, they get in there and they don't do some of the harder drills or scrimmages, and then after a week of their feeling up to it, they they get back to playing. Um, but again, it's the the key is that people may uh not test positive, but but have the virus and potentially be contagious. In fact, um it it appears that a lot of people are most contagious one to two days before they have symptoms. Right. So that's what that's what makes this so complicated that it's all a guessing game, scary. It's a waiting game. So so yeah, so you know, generally if you've been exposed, you should wait 14 days and then get tested if possible. And if you've had it uh after 10 to 14 days, um, you really don't even need to get tested. You you can return and you're not contagious.

SPEAKER_04 46:31

Can you get it again though?

SPEAKER_02 46:34

Yeah, so there's a couple of anecdotal case reports of people having gotten it again. Uh, we also know that uh there they've done some studies looking at antibodies, and they uh antibodies do decrease uh fairly rapidly. So it seems like on average people get from two to four months of antibody um levels in their blood. We don't know if after that they could get it again or if they retain some kind of immunity. Um, so I can tell you personally, I did my own little experiment. I got uh COVID in uh February. I was, I think I was probably patient zero in uh but um yeah, fortunately got through it and and just out of curiosity, I got my antibodies tested periodically, and sure enough, they I pretty much had them for about four months and then they just appeared.

SPEAKER_04 47:25

Now, do you still wear a mask and do you still take all the precautions even though you've had it and you're you're basically immune to it? I mean, if our kids get it, can they stop being yeah?

SPEAKER_02 47:36

Nobody is superhuman here. Uh, absolutely wear masks. Um, we don't know if maybe you don't get it, but you can still transmit it. You know, you can still act as a vector if you know it may be in you and you could you know breathe it out and and infect somebody else.

SPEAKER_04 47:52

So you could still shed the virus.

SPEAKER_02 47:54

Yeah, there there's no uh anti kryptonite, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00 47:59

So I think the key here is that like it we I I know people who said, well, if I get it, I won't get it again. And the answer, the direct answer is there's no nothing that we know 100% that that's true. And I think that's what people need to take out of this part of the conversation is if you get it, it does not guarantee that you're through this and you don't have to do anything. As Dr. Loma said, you're not superhuman. We have not had the virus long enough to know the the real science behind that to prove that. Um, you know, something else I wanted to ask both of you about uh people that have had the virus, but also, you know, when you're dealing with anything respiratory, we don't know and we won't know for a long time the long-term results of what happens if you have had this. We I I know there's different reports of people damaging their ability to do things with their lungs to nothing at all. But one thing I do want to ask about rinks

What About Those With Pre-Existing Conditions?

SPEAKER_00 48:45

is um is what is should rinks do with people with pre-existing conditions, or to uh make sure that they're finding the right movements for someone that may have had this, has other pre consist pre-existing conditions from both the parental and again an organization organizational standpoint. I'm shipping over my words here, I apologize. Uh, as a rink, right? If you know a child has asthma, or if you're a parent and your child has asthma, is it as simple as just consulting your doctor to find the best way forward? Should rinks be recommending that if your child has a pre-existing condition, you should probably speak to a doctor. Is it that simple?

SPEAKER_04 49:22

Right. Should you set out the season if your child has an underlying health condition?

SPEAKER_03 49:29

I think that's the perfect opportunity to consult with your physician.

SPEAKER_00 49:33

Right.

SPEAKER_03 49:33

Um, there's different levels of asthma. Um, and some people can tolerate a mask, some people can't. Um and it also is your own risk threshold. So that's a conversation that you would want to have with your physician. Um, and also probably get the detailed reopening plan from your rink. Exactly what precautions are they taking, what's the reinforcement for any um differing from the plan as far as cleaning and things like that, and really with those pre-existing conditions. I don't know that the coach, I probably think it's inappropriate for the coach to be making any sort of decision on that. Um but I think it's really uh the rink and or the coach could have a you know a sit-down conversation with the parent to say first, did your physician get approval for this? Um, and then you know, really talk it out in a strategic way rather than just being like, yes or no, okay, you're in for the season, or you know, I know that you have X, so I don't want you in because they're not medical professionals.

SPEAKER_00 50:41

Right. Right. I I think that's also a perfect transition to this question. And this is probably going to be more of a general discussion. Uh, but uh one of the things that I think is really important is really clear communication between rinks to organizations, to the parents, and back and forth. And I've seen some teams doing this phenomenally. I've seen other teams where the rink doesn't want to be involved, they don't want to talk, they just want you to follow the rules, which

What Should Parents Do If They Think A Rink Or A Team Isn’t Following Guidelines?

SPEAKER_00 51:00

can be very frustrating at times. So the the question is what should parents do if they think a rink is not following the correct guidelines or a team is not following the direct guidelines? Because I think the first initial reaction is to just raise and this is not okay, and we need to have a revolution. And I think that uh, would you agree? I'll I'll kind of put this out there, that if you're an organization of rank, have clear guidelines for communication uh for different scenarios where there's someone who has the virus, doesn't have the virus, pre-existing conditions, everything we've spoken about today, or if you you know, again, this this organization I spoke about um a few minutes ago had no precautions in place. And I think the thing that's most shocking to me is not that someone got the virus and spread it. That seems obvious. It's that it doesn't sound like anybody spoke up and said, hey, you know, maybe we should rethink this as a parent. I don't really want my kid with the so is that what what is my suggestion what everyone would recommend again and push these as a question is open the lines of communication communication, have that really clear dialogue between each other.

SPEAKER_02 52:02

Yeah, you know, we it's it's really interesting. So we we uh devised this protocol, right, for the NWHL. And we said, you know, look, positive cases will be looked at on uh a case-by-case basis. Right. Well, turns out no two cases have been alike.

SPEAKER_00 52:18

Right.

SPEAKER_02 52:19

Like I'm talking about just the scenario, right? Like one it was this one type of exposure, the other one, but you know, the team practice, uh you know, they practiced in one instance it was the day after, and another it was two days after. You know, all of these are the these permutations are infinite. And so really what it comes down to is what you said, which is those open lines of communication. If you're a parent, you you you do want to take, you know, and getting back to your previous question, you know, it's sort of on you. Like if your child does have an underlying medical condition, just make sure that you do your due diligence. Don't be as passive, you know, be more active about it, you know, seek out medical advice. Is is it worthwhile? Are the risks worthwhile for to have your kid play? And then if you're in an administrative position, you know, if you do, if you're the president of the league or if you know you're you manage a rink, then it is important for you to also make that decision. And now you know you have charges. I mean, those those are the all of the people that come to your ring. I think if you get those that conversation going, you may not get 100% agreement, but you're gonna end up with a pretty good plan, whatever it is. I mean, people may disagree about some of the minutiae locker room doors open or not, fans on or not, but overall, you're probably gonna arrive at some conclusion that asks for mask wearing, asks for physical distancing, and limiting the density of players in a given space. And I and I think that that's the best that we can do. So um, yes, I support the open lines of communication. And you know, things will constantly be changing. I mean, this will not remain the same. In three months, it's gonna look very different. Uh, we may or may not have a vaccine in a few months. I mean, that's gonna be another issue, whether or not that gets mandated, and you know, that's a whole other can of worms. But the point is, if you've got those open line of lines of communication, you will be able to handle those changes. You'll you know, you'll at least be able to arrive at some sort of um agreement or you know, at uh at a uh a minimum threshold that everyone agrees to.

SPEAKER_04 54:35

I have a question for um because oh I'm I'm sure we're gonna have

What About Whistles?

SPEAKER_04 54:39

a few refs listening in. So I I I have a question about the whistles because we know the buyers travels with droplets. Um and I'm thinking with a whistle, there's a lot of you know, droplets that could for what should they switch to electronic whistles?

SPEAKER_03 54:56

There are hand crank whistles, yeah. There's electronic versions, and again, it's those small asks. Why not? Like the the real question is why why wouldn't you? Right. Um ultimately.

SPEAKER_04 55:11

There's everything we can all do our part in trying to minimize the virus as best we can. We can't control the virus, it's out there, it's spreading, but there are things that we can do to try and minimize the risk within our own families and with each other.

unknown 55:26

Right.

SPEAKER_00 55:26

I was gonna jump in the perfect time to bring in the electronics uh strike zone in baseball, but that's another podcast for another time. Uh you go. Dr. Lemos, you actually alluded to a question I have here. I actually want to read this as it's written, uh, because it's this is a hard question for anybody in both you and Julia's position, which is what

What Can We Expect Moving Forward?

SPEAKER_00 55:43

can we expect moving forward? But I wrote this even if the answer is we shouldn't expect anything, because the truth is no one knows, right? But you know, in the positions that you're in, when I say what can we expect moving forward, I think what I'm really asking is what precautions should we have in mind moving forward? And again, I I believe you're about to repeat what you've been saying the whole episode, which is a good thing. I want you to know that. So go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 56:08

Yeah, I mean, look, I I I think um no one's got a one-month or three-month plan. I think this is I look people may have said that they accurately predicted how this would progress. Um, and I and I think they would be uh they'd probably be a little disingenuous if if they said that.

SPEAKER_01 56:29

Right.

SPEAKER_02 56:29

The reality is it's it's probably something somewhat mutable. Um, there is some evidence uh if we look at previous pandemics that it may get you know less uh virulent as time goes on, but we we just again we don't know. And so I think for the time being, the two things to remember are it will pass. This too will pass. There will come a day, and and yes, it feels like forever right now, but whether that's in 2022 or 2023, this will be in our rearview mirror. And I think that's just one way to kind of you know, give ourselves a little bit of encouragement. I mean, it it's a lot of heavy plotting until then, but it will pass. This isn't the the future of humanity, you know, for for the rest of our days on this planet. Um, and the second thing is just what we talked about, be conservative right now with your approach. Um, try to set, you know, the unfortunately this has become a bit of an ideological issue. Um, just try to set that aside for now. And you don't you don't want to get anyone sick, you don't want to get sick, you don't want your kids to be sick. And so just just err on the side of caution. This isn't the time to be a cowboy or or uh you know a hero. It's not a sign of toughness to be you know flouting regulations. Just just do your part and and then before you know it, like I said earlier, it will be over. And um, but but yeah, the the best thing we can do is to decrease the harm currently.

SPEAKER_00 58:03

Yeah, Julia, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this too before I jump into our final.

SPEAKER_03 58:06

Yeah, I think Dr. Lomas nailed it. Um, and until that, until it's passed, I would, you know, expect things to continue to change as we learn more. Um, I know that there was, you know, when they started saying, yes, you should be wearing a face covering or a mask, there was a lot of like, well, last week you said, you know, right? But we're learning things as we go. And we really thought it was potentially through um contact, right? So we were like bleaching everything that came home from the grocery store. We learned now that you know it's more through the air. So, you know, things are changing as we're learning. So we do have to um recognize that things are variable and be flexible with it as we learn more, so that eventually it ends up in our rear view mirror.

SPEAKER_00 59:00

Absolutely. You know, it's funny. I always I always tell my friends too to find anchors during this time. And by that I mean this is uh, you know, between 1941 and 1945, there was a world war. At least we're not sending our kids overseas right now. Or during the last pandemic, there was a world war. We're not having to deal with that uh right now, you know, little things like that. But uh, you know, what I hear from both of your answers there is a call for unity, a call for teamwork, that we are all in this together. That's something we heard a lot during the early days of this, but haven't heard a lot recently, to be honest with you. Um, is that personal accountability? It's on us to work together with our families, with our teams, to make sure that we're doing the best we can for ourselves and each other. That's that unifying message that I don't think is out there enough personally right now, but I'm sending it now. I'll tell you both this too before I get to the final question. Never have I recorded a podcast or a show that I hope outdates itself faster than this one. I hope that very quickly none of this matters anymore, that nobody listens to this podcast because we found a vaccine and everybody's doing better. But before I turn into the final question, um, I well, let me turn into the final question, excuse me. Um, this is what I like

What More Should We Know?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:06

to ask. What questions, if any, are Christy and I not asking as parents, as coaches, that we should be asking you two right now about the virus.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:21

You know, well, Julie, you want to take that?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:23

Uh yeah, um, you know, about the virus itself, I think you guys nailed it. This was really, really comprehensive.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:31

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:32

I think one part that people kind of can be overlooking is the psychological effect of this.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:39

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:39

The um, you know, we were all locked down for a long time, and you know, even communicating through Zoom, you know, everyone's kind of zoomed out, right? So um the kids are on iPads all day or laptops all day at school, and um, you know, that sports is a really good outlet for them. So um, but just just recognizing that you know your child's going through something really difficult, maybe less so if they're three or five and don't really know any different, um, but especially teenagers, this is already kind of like a very messy hormonal time. So um, and there's no predictability. You know, school's virtual, then it's hybrid, and then it's back to virtual, and the ring's open, and then it's closed again. Um, so just making sure that you're communicating with them and making sure that you know they're well as humans and understand what's happening and that they're given some sort of outlet. Um, and I think that's really where the virtual practices come in, even it's just like a virtual check-in as a team.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:39

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:39

Um, you don't have to be doing physical activity together, um, you know, a conference call, maybe you don't have screens on, um, because I've actually I was talking to someone and they were saying, you know, there's actually a lot of um, it takes a lot of brain effort to be on a Zoom call. The sound's a little bit off from what's happening on the screen. Turns out you blink less often when you're looking at a screen, whether via television or an iPad, so you get eye strain. Um so it's good to kind of turn off the screen every once in a while, but really just check in with your child who is a human being and is struggling through this too, whether or not they're saying it and just making sure that they have some sort of outlet.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:20

Right. And even on the college level, there's a lot of heartbreak. I just wrote uh I just read an essay by a uh SUNY student. Um, and he uh he wrote about the difficulty he's having because their season's been canceled. They've already canceled uh hockey in in New York State for all the SUNY schools, and he's worked his whole life to get to where he is right now to play hockey. He loves school, obviously, but hockey was a big part of his decision and where he chose to go to school. And now it's done, it's over with, and he's a senior and he's really wrestling with it. Um just broke my heart when I read his his essay that he he uh he put out there on social media. So um even the older kids are having a tough time with us.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:04

Yeah, I would just uh I absolutely agree with that. And remember, you know, as as parents, you know, we're we're also going through a tough time. So Julia said, check in with your kids, but you know, you you can't do as much for them as as you want if you're also struggling. So it is something to just keep in mind and and just be honest with yourself. And if you're struggling, you know, try try to get some help. Um, it this is unprecedented. I mean, that's the reality. And um, we just you know we have to recognize that and and be uh gentle with ourselves too.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:39

Yeah, you I I read a great article just to echo your point, both of your points. Um it was basically written as you've held it together for six months, and then someone spilled the milk and you lost your freaking mind. That's a telltale sign that maybe you're not where you thought you were. And uh I think as you're saying, Dr. Lomos and Julia, it's about you got to give yourself permission to realize you're going through this too. Like we don't have any long-term studies as a nation of eight months of quarantine and limited resources and toilet paper and all the fun things that have happened over the last eight months. Uh, you know, as you said, unprecedented. And sometimes it's important to take just a brief step back and say, hey, you know what? This is not normal, and that's okay. And you know, I'm a little stressed out. Um, before we close this out, I do want to ask this question too. Uh, just what's

Where To Go For More Guidance

SPEAKER_00 1:04:33

a good place, resources people can go to get more information? Obviously, there's lots of different competing messages all over the place. Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:41

So we're looking for good guidance, guidance that we can rely on, guidance based on science. Where should we go?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:48

Yeah, well, I so I would say, you know, to despite, I know there's been um um it just issues in the last few months, but I I still do think that the CDC is a good resource if uh parents want to just understand, you know, what's the latest synthesis of of the evidence that's out there, uh, because it can be very complicated to weed through. Um, I think uh many academic medical centers do have very good vetted uh also you know, summaries of uh recommendations. So, I mean, certainly at NYU there's a lot of great uh information. The uh NYU Langum uh website gives a lot of good information about uh you know recommendations relating to sports and and returning to activity. Um Julia might know a little bit more about uh specific USA hockey resources just because of her involvement with it. Um, do you want to take that, Julia?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:46

Yeah, USA Hockey was actually one of the first sports organizations to put out a reopening plan. So kudos to USA Hockey for you know really just preparing as soon as they had any sort of information so that brinks could uh the the organization could guide rinks in reopening and leagues. Um kind of oh, there's another one called the Corey Stringer Institute. Um they're really big in science and sport. Uh they do a lot of heat illness because Corey Stringer died from heat illness, um, but they have put out a good position statement that's been endorsed by a number of different medical organizations and sport organizations. So again, that's the Corey Stringer Institute. And the last one is a group that I've loved for years. Um, it's called Sidelined USA, and they are um their kind of mission is to help students and athletes who have been, you know, sidelined from sport, um, typically from a medical condition. Either their medical condition means they can't play that sport anymore that they love, or they can't play sports at all anymore. And they've actually they've put out a lot of resources for youth athletes who, you know, everyone's been sidelined now. So uh it's kind of the angles more mental health and how to stay engaged in athletics. Um, so sideline USA is a great resource, um, although not quite about the virus. And then the NCAA has also been doing a bunch of podcasts. So uh that's another one that you guys could check out. Um, obviously their their resources are more college specific, but they also have like a really good survey study on mental health and the student athletes. Because again, you know, at this point, they're you know, you just all through high school, all you can think about is going to college. Um, it's finally get some independence. Um, some people pick the school based on participation in sports. Um, and then you have the whole family dynamic of, you know, are my family high-risk? Are they working in frontline jobs? Um, you know, you know, now they lost income. Can I go back to school? There's so much happening. Um, so the NCAA is taking a really good look at that too. So sideline USA, NCAA, and then of course USA Hockey is fantastic.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:05

Thank you for sharing those resources. That's that's great. Um, I never heard of the sideline one. That one I'm gonna check out for sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:13

Yeah, it's a small group, and I talk about them whenever I can because I think that mission is so great.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:18

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:20

Yeah, no, the uh we'll we'll make sure we link them at the bottom of this episode also on the webpage as well, some non-agenda-based resources for people to go find some information. Again, the fact that I hadn't heard of some of those, that's a big deal. That's why I asked the question. You don't know unless you guess. So before I close this out, is there anything else anybody wants to say? Any any other final tips or trades or messages to the listeners?

SPEAKER_04 1:08:39

Just stay positive, everybody. And um, as both of our guests have said, um, we're in this together. We're in the rowboat, we need to row the same direction. Um, and stay positive and and and be that positivity for your kids too, because they feed off of you and they can pick up, you know, if you're staying confident and positive, it's gonna be better all around for your kids as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:04

And if you're being cautious, feel cautious, yes. That's a good example model of the behavior that they that you want them to have themselves.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:15

Yeah, it's great that you guys uh are putting this out. You know, we need more of this because I think um you guys obviously have a big reach. And I I think this is a good way to uh again, sometimes the the resources, it's just very confusing. And so sometimes kind of getting all of that, you know, in in one little snip at a time uh can be very clarifying for people.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:37

Well, and we appreciate having you both on as well. I think that's a big part of this is getting that clarification and just reaching out and communicating and the things that we spoke about. And I do also want to echo that uh the thing that was echoed several times on this episode that at a base minimum, mask wearing, social distancing. Dr. Lomas, as you said several times, it may be that easy. There's a lot of questions, a lot of answers, but those are two basic things that everybody can do. Dr. Lomas, Julia, I want to thank you both so much for being on the show today. It was a pleasure having you.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:08

It was my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:10

Both are so great. Thank you so much. Huge help for us.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:14

For uh Christy Cassiano Burns and myself, Leah Lias. This has been an episode of Our Kids Play Hockey. Thank you so much for joining us, and we will see you on the next episode. Thank you.