May 18, 2024

Inside the NHL Situation Room: A Conversation with Sean Ellis

Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon RSS Feed podcast player icon
Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon RSS Feed podcast player icon
Season 1 Our Kids Play Hockey

On this week's episode of "Our Kids Play Hockey," we take you behind the scenes look at NHL operations with our special guest, Sean Ellis, a Vice President of Hockey Operations at the NHL. We dive deep into the mechanics and the thrill of managing the famed NHL Situation Room.

Key Highlights:

  1. Sean's Hockey Journey:
    • Sean shares his personal journey from playing junior hockey in Massachusetts to finding his path in the NHL. Discover the series of fortunate events and the pivotal decisions that shaped his career in hockey operations.
  2. The Heart of Hockey Operations:
    • Get an exclusive look into the NHL Situation Room in Toronto, where Sean and his team make critical real-time decisions on game nights. Learn about the sophisticated technology and processes that ensure the accuracy and fairness of every call.
  3. The Evolution of NHL Rules:
    • Sean discusses significant rule changes over the years and how they've aimed to enhance player safety and promote the skill aspects of the game. This segment provides a deeper understanding of the ongoing efforts to improve the sport for players and fans alike.
  4. Challenges and Integrity in Officiating:
    • Explore the complexities and challenges faced by NHL officials. Sean explains how decisions are made with a high degree of integrity and based on clear facts, aiming to leave no room for doubt in the fast-paced environment of professional hockey.
  5. Advice for Aspiring Hockey Professionals:
    • For those looking to enter the hockey industry, Sean offers valuable advice on the importance of work ethic, well-rounded skills, and the commitment required to succeed beyond just being a player.

Thank you for tuning into this week's enlightening episode of "Our Kids Play Hockey." With Sean Ellis providing a rare glimpse into the critical operations at the heart of the NHL, we've gained invaluable insights into the dedication and precision that guide the sport at its highest levels. Sean's experiences remind us of the relentless pursuit of fairness and excellence in hockey, highlighting the importance of passion, perseverance, and integrity in shaping not just a career but the future of the game itself. Whether you're an aspiring professional or a lifelong fan, this episode offers lessons and inspiration that transcend the ice. 

Text The Our Kids Play Hockey Team!

 We're powered by NHL Sense Arena!

NHL Sense Arena, is a virtual reality training game designed specifically to improve hockey sense and IQ for both players and goalies. Experience the next generation of off-ice training in VR with over 100+ drills and training plans curated from top coaches and players.

Use Code "HockeyNeverStops" at Hockey.SenseArena.com to score $50 off an annual plan!

Have A Topic You Want Us To Cover? Let us know!

Please Be Sure To Subscribe & Leave A Review For Us On Apple Podcasts, doing so helps our show grow!

Follow Us On Social Media:


00:52 - Inside the NHL Situation Room

10:03 - Challenges in Sports Officiating Accuracy

15:41 - Video Review in Sports League Collaboration

30:59 - Respecting Youth Hockey Officials and Players

37:01 - Respect and Accountability in Refereeing

49:35 - NHL Official's Responsibilities and Rule Changes

58:36 - NHL Rules and Player Accountability

01:08:36 - Parental Advice for Youth Hockey

01:16:13 - Enjoying Spring and Summer Outdoors

WEBVTT

00:00:08.454 --> 00:00:14.869
Hello hockey friends and families around the world, and welcome to another edition of Our Kids Play Hockey, powered by NHL Sense Arena.

00:00:14.869 --> 00:00:25.713
I'm Lee Elias, with Mike Benelli and Christy Cash in our burns, and our guest today is someone that I guarantee every hockey fan in the world has wanted to meet and ask questions to.

00:00:25.713 --> 00:00:35.347
Sean Ellis is a vice president of hockey operations for the NHL and spends game nights managing the NHL Situation Room in Toronto yes, that Situation Room.

00:00:35.347 --> 00:00:42.771
In short, when you're watching a game and they say they're going to go check this out in Toronto, you can be assured they're talking about Ellis and his team.

00:00:42.771 --> 00:00:52.271
Sean is also an extra special guest for me today, as he and I both started our post-hockey playing work at the NHL headquarters in New York City just before 2010.

00:00:52.271 --> 00:00:56.932
Sean and I remember we had a mutual respect for each other immediately the day we met.

00:00:56.932 --> 00:00:59.628
Fifteen years later, I can still feel that today.

00:00:59.628 --> 00:01:02.268
I love seeing that we're both still heavily involved in the game.

00:01:02.268 --> 00:01:04.566
Sean, welcome to Our Kids Play Hockey.

00:01:05.168 --> 00:01:05.969
Hey, thanks so much, Lee.

00:01:05.969 --> 00:01:07.286
I'm really really happy to be here.

00:01:07.879 --> 00:01:08.986
Hey, we're happy to have you, man.

00:01:08.986 --> 00:01:12.430
This is kind of a little bit of the inside the NHL moment for everybody here.

00:01:12.430 --> 00:01:15.829
I can hear our audience screaming ask this what about this goal?

00:01:15.829 --> 00:01:17.421
But let's start where we usually start.

00:01:17.421 --> 00:01:22.528
Sean, you may work in Toronto, but you're an American and usually, and usually, that's the opposite on this show.

00:01:22.528 --> 00:01:25.733
So tell us about your hockey beginnings and how you got into the game.

00:01:26.375 --> 00:01:26.956
Sure, yeah.

00:01:26.956 --> 00:01:37.254
So I was born and raised in Springfield, Massachusetts, Played junior hockey in the Eastern Junior Hockey League from 2000 to 2003.

00:01:37.254 --> 00:01:45.739
And then I went to, I was accepted to Amherst College, played my hockey there.

00:01:45.739 --> 00:01:48.769
When I graduated I signed a minor league deal with the Corpus Christi Rays in the Central Hockey League.

00:01:50.322 --> 00:02:25.798
But after you know, I was put on waivers and decided to try to pack that in and go about finding my big boy job, my career, and through a series of fortunate events, I ended up getting an opportunity to work with the NHL in New York, as you said, and where we met and was there for three years and after that point I was transferred up to the Toronto office and, again through another series of fortunate events, found my way into hockey.

00:02:25.798 --> 00:02:50.927
It is that, but it's also hard work and dedication and doing extra work, showing people your value, and so I don't want to say, you know, I walked into a job Like, I think I earned my way into into the job, Um, um, and you have to earn your keep every day, Um, yeah.

00:02:50.927 --> 00:02:56.086
So I think that's that pretty well sums up my my journey to, to where I am today.

00:02:57.588 --> 00:02:59.051
I'm still looking for my big boy job.

00:02:59.051 --> 00:03:00.580
Maybe one day I'll I'll find that.

00:03:01.021 --> 00:03:02.365
Yeah, I think that's magic.

00:03:02.365 --> 00:03:04.348
If you're still looking, then you're in the right place, right?

00:03:04.388 --> 00:03:07.574
Right, there's a quote I always say don't grow up, it's a trap, right.

00:03:07.574 --> 00:03:14.747
But one of the cool things, sean, about working in hockey is, I think we're afforded the opportunity to kind of think that way, even though it is work.

00:03:14.747 --> 00:03:23.717
But one of the things I remember about you because, if I'm not mistaken, I started just a few months before you, but your passion for the game was evident.

00:03:23.717 --> 00:03:25.280
I mean, we connected on that right away.

00:03:25.280 --> 00:03:34.770
You could just feel the love for the game and it goes to show you you know, especially the listeners out there that the passion and love for the game transcends playing heavily.

00:03:34.891 --> 00:03:38.287
Right, and I'm not even just talking about play, I should be talking about fandom too.

00:03:38.287 --> 00:03:47.051
Right, that that if you love this enough, whether you're a volunteer in the game or you actually work in the game, it transfers over pretty easily.

00:03:47.051 --> 00:03:53.900
So when you say a series of fortunate events, I'm going to echo what you also said you worked hard, you wanted this and the passion for the game.

00:03:53.900 --> 00:03:55.104
It hasn't died in me at all.

00:03:55.104 --> 00:03:57.049
I know it hasn't died in you at all.

00:03:57.049 --> 00:04:00.086
So I just wanted to echo that because I think that's a really important part of the puzzle.

00:04:00.788 --> 00:04:05.460
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

00:04:05.460 --> 00:04:18.620
And I mean I say this a lot too like there are a lot of people that are passionate about the game, um, and you know, know their various aspects of the game really well, um, but that doesn't mean you're well suited or would be well suited to to work in hockey.

00:04:18.620 --> 00:04:22.365
Like you need that extra thing, um and um.

00:04:22.365 --> 00:04:31.315
So it's really just a like I I, when I talk to people about about this, I say that all the time is like when they're looking to get into sports, it's like you got it.

00:04:31.315 --> 00:04:33.639
You got to know more than just the sport.

00:04:33.639 --> 00:04:40.112
You have to have the work ethic, you have to to round yourself off really well, because it's not just gone.

00:04:40.112 --> 00:04:45.084
Are the days where you step off the ice and you just walk into a job in hockey are the days where you step off the ice and you just walk into a job in hockey.

00:04:45.103 --> 00:04:55.081
But also you can't just be super intelligent and walk your way into the, into a job within the game.

00:04:55.081 --> 00:05:02.093
You have to be pretty well-rounded, in my opinion, so, but at the base and the driving force of that I think does need to be a passion for for the sport.

00:05:04.201 --> 00:05:05.310
That's a great point.

00:05:05.673 --> 00:05:09.206
I'm dying to know about the situation right now.

00:05:09.206 --> 00:05:10.730
That's the journalist in me.

00:05:10.730 --> 00:05:18.348
Tell me what that's like, the situation room, oh, my goodness, I can't even imagine yeah it well it's.

00:05:18.528 --> 00:05:22.262
You know it's not lost on me how, how special it is um, it's a.

00:05:22.262 --> 00:05:42.312
It's a fantastic group of guys that that I I'm fortunate to work with um and to be a part of that team that that ultimately makes decisions on on on goals, on video reviews, high stick talks, kick pucks, batted pucks you know the coaches, challenge for goal, interference, offside plays, uh, missed game, stoppage, events like.

00:05:42.312 --> 00:05:51.173
To be part of that group of guys that gets to like really drill down in the details of those things and then make, ultimately make a decision is pretty special.

00:05:51.173 --> 00:06:00.704
The technology that we have in the room, I think is is a marvel, um it's, it's really allowed us to make decisions in um.

00:06:00.704 --> 00:06:04.028
You know a relatively short amount of time.

00:06:04.028 --> 00:06:22.711
I know for fans in the arena it seems like an eternity and at home and you're often just sitting there waiting, like maybe initially you don't even know what we're looking at, but the technology that we have to get to those decisions pretty quickly is is something to see and you know.

00:06:22.711 --> 00:06:25.079
So you know we have a pretty good process.

00:06:25.319 --> 00:06:40.144
We have a good group of people with with uh some great experience um that, both in the NHL, um as players as coaches, as managers, and then people like myself coming through through the game in a different route.

00:06:40.144 --> 00:06:50.048
Um, you bring a different perspective, um, and knowledge of the rules, and so really, you know we're we're watching every single game in real time.

00:06:50.048 --> 00:06:59.814
We have somebody that's dedicated to that game specifically, or to a single game specifically, and then a group that oversees everything.

00:06:59.814 --> 00:07:10.831
So if there is an event that happens in one game, we we move to that game too, so that one person is responsible for knowing the details.

00:07:10.831 --> 00:07:21.627
There won't be a person out there that knows the game, that particular game, better than this one person, and so it really is a team effort.

00:07:21.627 --> 00:07:40.848
You rely on that person doing that game to raise any issues and to identify any potential issues, and then we need the group of guys overseeing everything to work in concert with them, as well as the referees and linesmen on the ice to come up with a decision on a play.

00:07:41.440 --> 00:07:43.709
Y'all need to be well-oiled machines, obviously.

00:07:43.709 --> 00:07:45.788
I'm just curious about the technology.

00:07:45.788 --> 00:07:48.363
Is it more than cameras and just playbacks?

00:07:49.404 --> 00:07:54.492
yeah, so we have, we, we have, um, a system.

00:07:54.492 --> 00:07:58.144
Hawkeye is the, the, the software that we use.

00:07:58.144 --> 00:08:10.071
They're the company that does the tennis animation that you see in their tournaments, um, and they created a version of software for us, specific for us, and it amalgamates, uh, 17 different views.

00:08:10.071 --> 00:08:21.365
So 15 of those would be yes, they would be unique cameras that are either positioned, say, on the blue lines, or we have two cameras in the crossbars of each net.

00:08:21.365 --> 00:08:55.687
Um, so four cameras in the crossbars of the nets, another in-net camera, a camera over the net, and then we take the feeds from the home TV production and the away TV production or the national TV production, and it all, it amalgamates all into this, this program, and then it allows us to manipulate the video, to go frame by frame, to zoom in and to really get to again drill down to the details and, to the best of our ability, make a decision on a play.

00:08:55.687 --> 00:09:00.600
So, in concert with that, we have communication to the arena.

00:09:00.600 --> 00:09:13.888
So, as Lee was saying, when the referee puts on the headset, they're talking directly to us and when they pick up the iPad, the video that they're seeing is being sent from us in Toronto to their, to their iPad.

00:09:13.888 --> 00:09:19.481
So you know, we've, like you say, christy, it is a very well-oiled machine.

00:09:19.522 --> 00:09:32.287
At this point, and though not without its controversy, we don't necessarily feel that we make our decisions what we think is based on fact and on what we can prove to be true.

00:09:32.287 --> 00:09:41.908
And sometimes I know that can be frustrating, where you're sitting at home and you're saying, oh, that's clearly offside, and for us we might have that instinct as well.

00:09:41.908 --> 00:09:46.221
But then we have to go the step further and say can we prove that it's offside?

00:09:46.221 --> 00:09:56.014
And if, if you, christy lee or mike were, were the general managers of that team, could I go up to you and say, see, this is why this is offside.

00:09:56.014 --> 00:09:58.942
And if there's any doubt in our minds we won't, we won't do it.

00:09:58.942 --> 00:10:01.985
Um, and I think it leaves a some.

00:10:01.985 --> 00:10:19.894
There's a lot of plays where it's even a little bit frustrating for us, where we don't get that, that clear enough detail that we need, or we feel that we need to make the decision, and you walk away from it feeling like I'm 95 percent sure that that's offside, but we can't prove it.

00:10:20.821 --> 00:10:22.947
Even with all the different camera angles.

00:10:24.402 --> 00:10:28.964
And the guy in section 306, too, thinks it's on-site and he saw it.

00:10:29.104 --> 00:10:34.450
He was there, he saw it, and I was just waiting for his message, and then we would have been able to make our decision.

00:10:34.899 --> 00:10:44.552
The guy's always sitting next to me and every day, yeah yeah, I have to tell you, but I guess my head just exploded when you explained all the technology involved.

00:10:44.552 --> 00:10:56.671
It's kind of like a techno geek here, but I'm just I'm kind of surprised that even with all that, that you can once in a while still have a doubt, a question.

00:10:56.671 --> 00:10:58.020
Really, yeah.

00:10:58.221 --> 00:11:13.927
Yeah, I mean, like, if you think about, you know, I have to follow these the steps here a little bit but we have cameras that are directly on the blue lines but, as we all know, as players are entering the zone they sort of stack up, they're trying to time their entry in.

00:11:14.059 --> 00:11:44.374
So when you're looking at it from the side, you might be trying to look through three or four bodies to see the, and then we have one on the other side that can be obstructed as well, and then we have a camera, we have cameras on the other side that can be obstructed as well, um, and then we have a camera, we have cameras in the scoreboards that shoot down, but there's an angle there and it's the parallax, and so what may look like the puck is over the blue line, um, isn't necessarily true and we can't really use that to as proof because we know that that angle can be deceiving.

00:11:44.374 --> 00:12:03.067
Yeah, um, and then, and then, as you know, like, if we go to goalie interference challenges, um, or or maybe more appropriately, a puck over the goal line, um, you, you know, like, watching the game today, there are so many times where you see six, seven, eight, nine players in the crease.

00:12:03.067 --> 00:12:10.947
Just flailing around and just to find the puck can be difficult, yeah, let alone then figuring out.

00:12:10.947 --> 00:12:12.490
Did it fully cross the goal line?

00:12:13.251 --> 00:12:20.272
someday we're gonna have camera ships in the skate blades and in the box yeah, yeah and you know, what?

00:12:20.893 --> 00:12:41.796
yeah, you know, and that's that's where we get the most flags, like flags Like why don't we have like a goal line technology and we certainly have looked into it and it's just not at a point where anybody's really comfortable that we would be able to say with a high degree of certainty that what we're seeing is, or what the data is showing you, is true.

00:12:41.796 --> 00:12:46.990
The margin of error, I guess, say is, is too great at this point.

00:12:47.441 --> 00:12:52.600
Yeah, so yeah, I want to jump in here too, because this is something that I know from working in sports.

00:12:52.600 --> 00:12:58.825
So sports fans and this is not a shot tend to see about three or four inches in front of their face when it's especially when it's their team.

00:12:58.825 --> 00:13:14.287
I always like to take a macro approach to things and and I gotta say this, we we're talking, sean, most likely hundreds of an inch, you know, tens of an inch margin of error when you're watching for an offsides or a goal right, or or you literally can't see it.

00:13:14.287 --> 00:13:25.870
I take a step back and watch an umpire have a ball go six inches outside the strike zone which we can see and call that a call that a strike, the strike zone which we can see and call that a strike right.

00:13:25.870 --> 00:13:36.345
So when you look at the other sports right now and you look at A, the speed of hockey, I mean it's so fast at the NHL level.

00:13:36.345 --> 00:13:39.572
I mean I really sometimes don't think people realize how fast that game is moving.

00:13:39.572 --> 00:13:49.750
And then you compare it to the NFL, nba, mlb I'm biased, but I'm going to say it we have the best officials and officiating in sports.

00:13:50.660 --> 00:13:57.068
When you think about, like I said, you're 95% sure and you're talking about the smallest amount of room.

00:13:57.068 --> 00:14:00.167
I don't think the other sports can say that.

00:14:00.167 --> 00:14:05.465
I mean, in basketball we see blatant fouls, called or not called, in the NFL.

00:14:05.465 --> 00:14:13.879
I don't know how many more rules they can make about catching a ball or hitting a quarterback, and then the interpretation of that and this isn't a shot at the the officiating in those sports it's just different.

00:14:13.879 --> 00:14:16.202
And then baseball has its own sets of challenges.

00:14:16.202 --> 00:14:22.730
But when it comes to hockey, I mean I think you, you guys, get it right all every time.

00:14:22.730 --> 00:14:26.395
I mean, and when it is one of those, we can't prove it.

00:14:26.395 --> 00:14:34.886
I think most people, unless it's game seven of a cup final, most people are nodding their head of like, okay, I can see why they would make that call.

00:14:34.886 --> 00:14:44.712
But I got to shout that out because when you have a margin of error that small, that's a blessing in a game that's moving faster than every other game that I just spoke about.

00:14:46.100 --> 00:14:47.465
Yeah, it is.

00:14:47.465 --> 00:14:57.014
It is and I think you know, I think we're, we we are always endeavoring to get as close to perfection as as you can.

00:14:57.014 --> 00:15:17.764
But inherently in video review and what we do and what all the other major sports leagues do in their review process, it's a it's an impossible thing to to attain, however the the uh fans believe and, um, when something does go to review, it's black and white.

00:15:17.764 --> 00:15:23.543
There is a right and wrong answer and it's unfortunately just not the always the case in.

00:15:23.543 --> 00:15:25.352
In many instances it is, but it's not always the case.

00:15:25.352 --> 00:15:26.840
In many instances it is, but it's not always the case.

00:15:26.980 --> 00:15:34.950
But the expectation is that it always is, and that's where we catch a lot of our flack and you know we don't have a problem with it.

00:15:34.950 --> 00:15:43.171
You know, like we have to make difficult decisions and, again, we know that we have to defend it.

00:15:43.171 --> 00:15:51.048
We're accountable for those decisions and, um, and a fan at home isn't necessarily accountable.

00:15:51.048 --> 00:16:04.846
But if, if you lead, like you said, take your macro, look at something, you, you, if you're looking at it objectively, um, and as fans, you can't always do that if your team is evolving, we love, we love the passion of the fans.

00:16:04.846 --> 00:16:05.488
That's great.

00:16:05.488 --> 00:16:06.745
Hold our feet to the fire.

00:16:06.745 --> 00:16:07.267
We love that.

00:16:07.267 --> 00:16:15.708
But if you're looking at something purely objectively, I think more often than not you can say, yeah, they made the right call there, right?

00:16:16.071 --> 00:16:28.083
Yeah, I think the advent of this technology right has made it so much, I think, harder for officials, because everybody in the arena sees the play.

00:16:28.083 --> 00:16:35.149
You know it at a very slower motion than it happened and it's easy to make a call, like when it's going.

00:16:35.149 --> 00:16:38.847
You know three tenths to speed, you know just tiny little fractions of a second.

00:16:38.847 --> 00:16:54.173
So let me ask them what, because you mentioned that, what you know, the collaboration between the official on the ice that made the call and the situation room, how much, how much influence does an official have back to the room when they're looking at that iPad with you?

00:16:54.173 --> 00:16:55.586
I mean, is there a true collaboration there?

00:16:55.586 --> 00:16:58.441
Because we all know the officials are probably against one of the teams, right?

00:16:58.441 --> 00:17:00.107
So they don't want one of the teams to win.

00:17:00.107 --> 00:17:02.403
So I think so.

00:17:02.403 --> 00:17:12.328
So we we have to know how much really say that they have in that process, because there are boots on the ground uh, tremendous amount of say.

00:17:12.369 --> 00:17:24.002
I think, um, the the basis of the review is based off of their original call and um, and when we're reviewing it, we asked for their, their input.

00:17:24.044 --> 00:17:28.880
What were you seeing here, given their position on the ice, and what was your judgment?

00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:48.373
And it really I can't stress it enough it really is a collaboration and I think more often than not, you know, a referee picks up the iPad and a lot of times when you get to a challenge, it's a team questioning, essentially questioning their judgment.

00:17:48.373 --> 00:17:51.689
Right, they look at it and they say, oh, wow, you know what?

00:17:51.689 --> 00:17:55.164
I didn't see that from, from my view.

00:17:55.164 --> 00:18:12.307
So they're they're very quick to to own up and and own ups maybe not the right way to put it, but to to say when they had a piece, they're now seeing a piece of information that they didn't have when they made their original call and they're happy to.

00:18:12.307 --> 00:18:15.669
At the end of the day, everybody wants to get it right.

00:18:15.669 --> 00:18:21.469
An official doesn't want to, you know, walk away at the end of the game knowing that they messed something up.

00:18:21.469 --> 00:18:24.584
It's and they're in the same boat, right, sean?

00:18:24.624 --> 00:18:32.673
I mean, they're at the blue line making a call and there's four 6'4", 230-pound men skating by them, right?

00:18:32.673 --> 00:18:37.042
So how hard is it to make all these calls and worry about getting hit and worry about?

00:18:37.042 --> 00:18:41.285
There's so much going on where I think the video review is great when it's used.

00:18:41.285 --> 00:18:44.207
If you're going to use it, go all in, right.

00:18:44.207 --> 00:18:50.209
I mean, and I think that's where we are at the youth hockey level, it gets frustrating, right?

00:18:50.209 --> 00:18:51.234
Because parents think that everything's reviewable.

00:18:51.234 --> 00:18:55.451
I'm like, just because it's on live barn doesn't mean it's reviewable, like there's no reviewable system.

00:18:55.511 --> 00:18:56.957
So the call is the call.

00:18:56.977 --> 00:19:05.010
Thank goodness for that by the way mike, oh yeah I can't tell you how many parents have come to me after games with the clip of the goal.

00:19:05.030 --> 00:19:06.772
Did you see this?

00:19:06.993 --> 00:19:08.154
Did you show the official list?

00:19:08.154 --> 00:19:10.519
I go.

00:19:10.519 --> 00:19:11.563
It doesn't even matter if I show the official list.

00:19:11.563 --> 00:19:15.684
I said there's no youth hockey situation room in Colorado, it's just what it is.

00:19:15.684 --> 00:19:19.084
So I think that's where we all have to when we talk about this.

00:19:19.084 --> 00:19:46.060
Sean, all the time on the show is there is such a stark difference between a professional official that has her life depending on it really, I mean, their livelihood is this job and the 13 year old kid that's missing it off sides that our expectations have to be like listen, you have a situational room with 17 cameras, with sensors, with this, with collaboration, I have a 13 year old kid that's getting yelled at by a bunch of adults.

00:19:46.101 --> 00:19:48.084
So yeah I think it's just one of those things.

00:19:48.084 --> 00:20:01.948
To lee's point the, it's so great to see how these officials conduct themselves at the highest levels of the game, even with all that scrutiny there and uh, and most of the time it is right.

00:20:01.948 --> 00:20:07.045
I mean, whether you like it or not, you know, sometimes they're like, oh, I can't believe they made that, I can't believe they got that call.

00:20:07.045 --> 00:20:07.747
It was a good goal.

00:20:07.867 --> 00:20:10.666
But yeah, that's a different story altogether.

00:20:10.666 --> 00:20:11.249
It's, it's.

00:20:11.249 --> 00:20:22.968
Yeah, I was saying the other day, yesterday, at my son's drought, I was talking with another father and they're saying, like we lose all perspective the moment we walk into the rink of our kids.

00:20:22.968 --> 00:20:29.188
Um, our kids events, you know if it's a tryout or if it's a game of practice, like all logic goes out the window.

00:20:29.188 --> 00:20:32.423
Um, you know, for some reason it's just the.

00:20:32.423 --> 00:20:38.324
You know, you enter into the, the twilight zone there, if you will, but, um, our officials are, are great.

00:20:38.963 --> 00:20:45.953
Um, the, the game, the speed at which it's played, as you guys were alluding to, it's inherently.

00:20:45.953 --> 00:20:47.516
There are going to be mistakes made.

00:20:47.516 --> 00:20:58.708
And we're talking right now, it's the first round of the playoffs and never is that more apparent than in the first round of the playoffs or in the playoffs in general.

00:20:58.708 --> 00:21:05.228
And never are our officials or us in the situation room more critiqued than we are right now.

00:21:05.228 --> 00:21:13.099
Inherently, mistakes are made on the ice and it happens, but it's not just by our officials.

00:21:13.099 --> 00:21:29.060
The players make mistakes, the coaches make mistakes, and yet the officials bear the brunt of that anger and us when it comes to review that anger.

00:21:29.060 --> 00:21:30.164
And and and us when it comes to review, though.

00:21:30.164 --> 00:21:35.061
That being said, there are a number of individual players right now getting hammered pretty hard by the media for their lack of performance, if you will.

00:21:35.061 --> 00:21:41.294
So no one's no one's escapes the, the criticism, but but yeah, it's, it's.

00:21:41.779 --> 00:21:44.122
I think our officials do do a tremendous job.

00:21:44.122 --> 00:21:46.564
And and a little bit about the process.

00:21:46.564 --> 00:22:12.192
Like before the coaches challenge was instituted, we spent probably a full year, for sure, and maybe even a little bit more, tracking all plays that were goals, that were scored, where there was some sort of contact or traffic, even around the crease, and all plays where a goal was scored and the entry into the zone was close.

00:22:12.192 --> 00:22:19.653
It was either clearly offside or it was like really hard to tell, or there was some element of control.

00:22:19.653 --> 00:22:41.142
As you know, we allow for a player to enter the zone with control of the puck if uh, and cross the blue line before the puck, um, which is unique for the nhl versus youth hockey, um, and so we we looked at all of that and the amount of times that our officials got it right was, um, pretty surprising, even for for us.

00:22:41.644 --> 00:22:51.787
Um, they're they're so good at making these judgments in real time and I can't give them enough credit for that, again, mistakes happen.

00:22:51.787 --> 00:23:02.171
They're not going to be perfect, but the degree at which they do get it right was pretty surprising and eye-opening, I think.

00:23:02.171 --> 00:23:17.872
So, really, when we get down to it, we're only ever really discussing or we're most often discussing judgment calls, and you can question the judgment of the officials of us in the room.

00:23:17.872 --> 00:23:25.773
But the point of having the review system the way that we have it is that the same group of people make the decisions on all.

00:23:25.773 --> 00:23:36.214
So we might be wrong in your view on a play, but we're probably then going to be consistently wrong because we have the same people looking at it.

00:23:36.214 --> 00:23:40.371
We don't think it's wrong, we think it's right, but you get the point that we're consistent.

00:23:40.619 --> 00:23:42.384
You're in your interpretation, right.

00:23:42.384 --> 00:23:47.413
I mean, like, when you like, I think what's the most, I mean what would be the most controversial one right now?

00:23:47.413 --> 00:23:48.102
It's probably.

00:23:48.102 --> 00:23:51.349
I mean like that fine line of goalie interference, right?

00:23:51.349 --> 00:23:54.637
Like, if yes, is the goalie truly interfered with?

00:23:54.637 --> 00:23:57.469
Was the defenseman pushing the forward into the crease?

00:23:57.469 --> 00:23:58.554
Was the, was the?

00:23:58.554 --> 00:24:01.085
Was the goalie even going to be able to make the save anyway?

00:24:01.085 --> 00:24:03.453
Like, and that's such a hard thing, right?

00:24:03.473 --> 00:24:08.290
because now you see, like you start seeing like a kid, like the kid from the panthers make that save the other day.

00:24:08.290 --> 00:24:14.851
Uh, you know behind you like well, that's an impossible save, so it doesn't matter if somebody was, you know, in his crease.

00:24:14.851 --> 00:24:31.513
But yet you have to make those calls and I guess to your point, like once you kind of establish, it's like good officials right at the beginning of a game, once they've kind of established the game, like this is what I'm gonna like, you know, just like a, an umpire with strike zones in theory, like, okay, this is the strike zone.

00:24:31.513 --> 00:24:37.627
It might be a horrendous strike zone to the team, but this is the strike zone we've decided.

00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:39.667
As long as it's consistent, right.

00:24:40.602 --> 00:24:44.329
And then the players have to play within that context.

00:24:44.711 --> 00:24:45.772
Yeah, exactly, that's right.

00:24:45.772 --> 00:24:50.435
You as the player have to adjust to that set of circumstances for that game.

00:24:50.435 --> 00:24:52.443
Right, you as the player have to adjust to that set of circumstances for that game.

00:24:52.443 --> 00:25:07.112
I remember in college, as a captain, before the after warm up, before you went back to the dressing room, you met with the referees at the referees crease and they would tell you I'm going to be real tight on hooks to the hands or whatever it was.

00:25:07.112 --> 00:25:10.390
And then you went back to your team and told them what was said.

00:25:10.390 --> 00:25:23.910
And then, you know, you might not get along with that official, you might not agree with their standard, but your job as the player is to adjust to that and play within the bounds of that.

00:25:23.960 --> 00:25:39.567
It can get tricky if the standard switches over the course of the game in your opinion, but the referees are doing the best that they can to uphold that standard and and or and stick to that standard and I think they do a really good, good job of it.

00:25:39.567 --> 00:25:48.930
Maybe, you know, don't get enough credit, but but that's the nature of the job and that's what they, you know, that's what they sign up for.

00:25:48.930 --> 00:25:53.906
You know, and and again, again, to go back to like having the same group of people make these decisions.

00:25:53.906 --> 00:25:56.653
Um, you know mike to your point about.

00:25:56.653 --> 00:26:16.127
You know you've had like, yeah, you can come as christy as you did, you can come with the live barn video and show, and it's like sure, but but, um, you show it to mike and he might have one interpretation, lee will have another, I might have a different one, and you don't want to have all these different standards floating around out there.

00:26:16.448 --> 00:26:19.672
Exactly, but I slow-mo it.

00:26:19.712 --> 00:26:21.555
So, you know, my video.

00:26:21.555 --> 00:26:22.395
So obvious.

00:26:35.299 --> 00:26:36.282
Well, let's talk about you, Ty.

00:26:36.282 --> 00:26:36.763
You've got two littles.

00:26:36.763 --> 00:26:38.769
Now you have a four-year-old and a nine-year-old, and the four-year-old's about to really get into it.

00:26:38.769 --> 00:26:40.815
Your nine-year-old is already in the thick of it and you know, you've been to games and you have.

00:26:40.815 --> 00:26:45.003
You have to admit, our local refs take a lot of heat and parents in the stand can be super hostile.

00:26:45.003 --> 00:26:49.031
You know name calling and you know the whole nine yards um.

00:26:49.491 --> 00:27:06.012
So let's to put it gently, I won't talk about the fistfights that I've witnessed but anyway um so, yeah, it's, it's tense and, like you said, it's almost like bizarro land when you you step into that and people kind of lose their common sense.

00:27:06.012 --> 00:27:18.712
So I would love for you to talk to paris I mean, you're on the highest level of making these calls Talk to parents directly about those dicey situations where they kind of lose control.

00:27:19.940 --> 00:27:33.318
Yeah, I mean again, like I mentioned before, you know, nobody a player, coach, referee wants to walk away from a game knowing that they made a bad mistake.

00:27:33.318 --> 00:27:36.405
They all are trying to do their best all the time.

00:27:36.405 --> 00:27:40.983
As Mike said, you might have a 13-year-old kid refereeing a game.

00:27:40.983 --> 00:27:45.252
That kid doesn't want to mess up a call, he wants to get it right.

00:27:45.252 --> 00:27:49.489
Maybe this is what he's interested in making his career.

00:27:49.489 --> 00:27:52.903
He wants to do the best, or she wants to do the best that they can do.

00:27:53.684 --> 00:28:07.441
Um, and I think we would do well to to maybe give them a little bit of deference, even as a 13 year old young person, starting off of their, their, their career.

00:28:07.441 --> 00:28:10.308
Give them the respect that they deserve.

00:28:10.308 --> 00:28:23.467
There aren't a lot of people signing up to do that job and we don't really help our cause if we're so harsh with that kid, or even if it's an adult, we're so harsh with them.

00:28:23.467 --> 00:28:34.002
We're not encouraging more people to come in to do that job and then, therefore, we we're making for the future, we're making it more difficult for ourselves.

00:28:34.002 --> 00:28:43.830
We're not going to have that, that competition amongst the, the, the officiating pool of people to to get the best talent.

00:28:43.830 --> 00:28:46.181
We're just getting whoever's willing to sign up.

00:28:46.721 --> 00:28:48.545
Yeah, excellent points.

00:28:49.046 --> 00:28:50.970
I don't think that we're fair.

00:28:50.970 --> 00:28:57.192
Again, we lose our objectivity, logic goes out the window, and I get it, I get it.

00:28:57.192 --> 00:29:00.442
We're never more passionate about anything in our lives than our kids.

00:29:00.442 --> 00:29:08.806
And maybe I feel, maybe I'm fortunate because of what I get to be part of, what I do for a living.

00:29:08.806 --> 00:29:15.686
I, I feel I have a pretty strong sense of objectivity and and perspective.

00:29:16.448 --> 00:29:24.830
Um, and I wish you know so, I, I have to put that into practice every single day and I carry that into the rink with me.

00:29:24.830 --> 00:29:28.923
I know where my, where my kid stands in the packing order, and it's okay.

00:29:28.923 --> 00:29:34.587
Like we're not always victims, you know, like sometimes your kids make mistakes.

00:29:34.587 --> 00:29:41.104
Um, they're not always the superstar on the ice, maybe they're never the superstar in the ice, and that's okay.

00:29:41.104 --> 00:30:02.130
But, um, I think we would do better to, like you know, continue focus on your kid and and wish them all the success and hope that they continue to improve as the course of the season goes on, as the course of their careers go on, but know that your kid's not being held back because a 13-year-old referee made a tough call.

00:30:03.080 --> 00:30:09.928
Now when your 9-year-old gets to be the age where they can ref, would you be okay with that?

00:30:09.928 --> 00:30:11.605
Would you encourage them to do that?

00:30:12.207 --> 00:30:13.029
Yeah, absolutely.

00:30:13.029 --> 00:30:15.669
I think it's a great career path.

00:30:15.669 --> 00:30:23.369
I mean, especially at the NHL level now where our director of officiating he's actively recruiting all the time.

00:30:23.369 --> 00:30:25.586
There's referee combines.

00:30:25.586 --> 00:30:30.482
That they're looking for talent everywhere and they'll approach people.

00:30:30.482 --> 00:30:32.886
That they're looking for talent everywhere and they'll approach people.

00:30:32.886 --> 00:30:36.913
They're not beholden to pulling people from a system.

00:30:36.913 --> 00:30:42.223
You have to work your way up through a minor hockey system to a junior hockey.

00:30:42.223 --> 00:30:47.834
If they feel somebody could be a good referee or linesman, they'll go for it, they'll go after them.

00:30:49.883 --> 00:31:05.229
So we've had guys that are currently in the NHL that literally came off the ice as a player and in the very next season we're reffing at the professional level, Not at the NHL but at the professional level, having no other refereeing experience.

00:31:05.229 --> 00:31:07.269
We all know the rules.

00:31:07.269 --> 00:31:09.000
Players think you know them.

00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:10.048
As a player, you think you know the rules really well.

00:31:10.048 --> 00:31:10.271
You don know.

00:31:10.271 --> 00:31:10.859
As a player, you think you know the rules really well.

00:31:10.859 --> 00:31:11.801
You don't.

00:31:11.801 --> 00:31:17.744
But or well enough, I should say but you can, you can learn that.

00:31:18.065 --> 00:31:26.728
But what's hard to teach an adult is how to skate and how to be able to read the game and understand positioning, like those things are sort of innate.

00:31:26.728 --> 00:31:33.363
Things are sort of innate um.

00:31:33.363 --> 00:31:37.579
So if they identify that within an individual, they'll they'll be more than happy to work with them and try to encourage them and foster that talent to get them to the level.

00:31:37.579 --> 00:32:00.073
So if my son, either of my sons or both, want to do that at some point, yeah, absolutely, I'd encourage it and I, I, I would hope that that parents, when they're at a game, can remember that that's somebody's son or daughter that they're yelling at and even if it's an adult, that's somebody's father, husband, wife.

00:32:00.073 --> 00:32:05.671
You know, it's all about perspective.

00:32:05.671 --> 00:32:09.327
And a nine-year-old my son's nine.

00:32:09.327 --> 00:32:11.413
He's going to be playing under 11.

00:32:11.413 --> 00:32:14.567
I think I have a pretty good perspective.

00:32:14.567 --> 00:32:16.186
We're not talking about the NHL here.

00:32:16.186 --> 00:32:23.231
We're talking about nine ten-year-old kids and they still go to bed with their stuffies under their arms.

00:32:23.231 --> 00:32:26.989
A little referee plush, yeah, exactly.

00:32:28.061 --> 00:32:29.125
A little Kerry Frazier.

00:32:33.220 --> 00:32:47.363
Sean, I want to say a ton of notes here, but you know, when I coach and this is something I'm speaking all the coaches out there and the parents, um and this is from pro down to might I have very low tolerance for my players, uh speaking hostile, hostile.

00:32:47.363 --> 00:32:56.421
Hostile to a referee, um, because, a I think it's far outside their control, but B and Mike, you just brought up Kerry Frazier, you know.

00:32:56.421 --> 00:33:03.871
He was on the show and really opened our eyes up to a few things and he talked about you cannot beat the opponent and the referees and win a game.

00:33:03.871 --> 00:33:04.421
It's.

00:33:04.421 --> 00:33:05.767
You can't fight both of them.

00:33:05.767 --> 00:33:11.109
And I always remind my teams the officials are a team too.

00:33:11.109 --> 00:33:17.971
There are three teams on the ice right, and if you're yelling at them and ripping them and parents, this is for you too.

00:33:17.971 --> 00:33:19.986
It's not going to work in your favor.

00:33:21.371 --> 00:33:30.486
You know, one of the things I say when I work with teams are the hardest thing to do in team sports, in my opinion, in hockey, is they get a 60 minute mental and physical perfect effort.

00:33:30.486 --> 00:33:31.842
It's the hardest thing to do.

00:33:31.842 --> 00:33:42.628
Yet we expect that from every official, from the age of nine to 99, that they are Hawkeye-ing everything all the time, and we're human beings.

00:33:42.628 --> 00:33:47.123
So do refs miss calls at the youth level, 100%?

00:33:47.123 --> 00:33:48.285
Do they daydream?

00:33:48.285 --> 00:33:49.086
At the youth level?

00:33:49.086 --> 00:33:50.108
Most likely.

00:33:50.108 --> 00:33:52.753
I mean not supposed to, but we're human, right.

00:33:52.753 --> 00:33:57.943
So I always try and remind players and parents that have, like you said, they're doing the best they can.

00:33:57.943 --> 00:33:58.988
They're a team too.

00:34:00.060 --> 00:34:04.045
Or I've had referees come up to me say point blank parents, you don't hear this.

00:34:04.045 --> 00:34:08.202
This kid with me today, it's his first game ever and he's trying to learn.

00:34:08.202 --> 00:34:14.387
He's going to do the best he can, which I encourage every official to tell the coach that, right, but he's going to make mistakes.

00:34:14.387 --> 00:34:16.110
It's a team.

00:34:16.110 --> 00:34:19.492
We're working with them to teach that kid to be a better official, right?

00:34:19.492 --> 00:34:21.215
Also too.

00:34:21.215 --> 00:34:23.197
Listen, I have a business idea.

00:34:23.197 --> 00:34:23.880
I wrote this down.

00:34:23.880 --> 00:34:25.206
Guys, we're going to be millionaires on this.

00:34:25.206 --> 00:34:27.585
We need to create our own situation room for youth hockey.

00:34:27.585 --> 00:34:28.987
I have it down here.

00:34:28.987 --> 00:34:32.173
All we need is 60,000 volunteers to help us watch the games.

00:34:33.061 --> 00:34:34.585
But we'll have our own situation.

00:34:35.188 --> 00:34:39.208
Yeah, no, no, I tied it to my hockey rankings and people can upload videos.

00:34:39.208 --> 00:34:40.130
We're going to make this work.

00:34:40.780 --> 00:34:42.206
Sean, we need to borrow a few of those nets.

00:34:42.206 --> 00:34:46.791
I don't know if you have like 50,000 of them available with all the cameras, but we can do this.

00:34:50.960 --> 00:34:51.663
We can review every goal, every stat.

00:34:51.663 --> 00:34:53.389
No, I'm bringing this up for the youth parents.

00:34:53.389 --> 00:35:08.864
I do want to talk about youth and, sean, I do want to go back to the situation room at some point to talk about some of your other responsibilities, but I want to impress upon the listeners, parents especially, that I know you're watching the game and I know you want your kids to win, but I want you to listen to what Sean says.

00:35:08.864 --> 00:35:12.684
It takes to make the right call at the NHL level.

00:35:12.684 --> 00:35:14.411
Which game is faster than your game?

00:35:14.411 --> 00:35:25.192
There are more people on the ice watching that game and the players are the most talented at a game and they still need all this technology to do the best that they can, and thank goodness that we have that.

00:35:26.500 --> 00:35:29.545
Give these refs a break at the youth level.

00:35:29.545 --> 00:35:35.688
I think you said it right that that you know they're trying to do the best they can look.

00:35:35.688 --> 00:35:38.139
Sure, you're going to get ego in this game every once in a while.

00:35:38.139 --> 00:35:46.813
And my question to the kids and this is another point I'm trying to make to the parents whether I'm coaching or it's my kid Well, he missed that offsides call.

00:35:46.813 --> 00:35:50.737
Right, the worst thing you can do is kind of continue to enable?

00:35:50.737 --> 00:35:59.697
Yeah, yeah, they did, they suck and they ruined it, and they the whole game now is ruined because of that offsides call, when the response really should be maybe yes, maybe no.

00:35:59.697 --> 00:36:00.559
What are we going to do about it?

00:36:00.559 --> 00:36:02.206
What are you going to do about it?

00:36:02.206 --> 00:36:06.201
How are you going to respond to this adversity that we're facing now?

00:36:06.201 --> 00:36:12.081
Cause I can tell you right now, parents, there is no game and coaches won or lost on one bad call.

00:36:12.081 --> 00:36:13.766
It does not work that way.

00:36:13.766 --> 00:36:16.592
All right, it's unfortunate, and you get bad breaks.

00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:20.146
Sean, I used to say if you want to beat the refs, score more goals.

00:36:20.146 --> 00:36:22.221
That's what I used to say to my players.

00:36:22.221 --> 00:36:27.851
But you've got to be able to take the ego out of this a little bit, and I think that's how I'm going to round this out with you.

00:36:27.851 --> 00:36:37.730
Sean, in terms of this question is that, from the situation room to the officials on the ice, to the officials in youth hockey, you have to be able to remove the ego out of the situation to make a call.

00:36:37.730 --> 00:36:44.032
You can't look at it like oh, I was a fan of this team, I'm not a fan of that team, I'm from this town, I'm trying to make.

00:36:44.032 --> 00:36:47.884
You have to remove that and just look at it black and white to the best of your ability.

00:36:47.884 --> 00:36:51.909
This is my judgment, this is my call right, that removal ego is key.

00:36:52.369 --> 00:36:55.373
Yeah, yeah, because I think I think it is.

00:36:55.373 --> 00:36:58.942
And again, we are professionals.

00:36:58.942 --> 00:37:06.240
We don't want to go home at the end of the night thinking we did something improper, inappropriate.

00:37:06.240 --> 00:37:16.326
We, as much as we might like or dislike individuals, teams, whatever, our goal is to get the call right.

00:37:16.326 --> 00:37:22.527
Our objective is to get the call right and we're going to do that with using the best judgment that we can to do so.

00:37:22.527 --> 00:37:35.487
You know, we might again not get it right in your minds as fans, but we're working with the information that we have to get to that decision.

00:37:38.023 --> 00:37:47.170
I think that you know, you as fans, with all the different TV angles that they show, you're not working off of zero information.

00:37:47.170 --> 00:37:54.224
You have a lot of information too, and so if we went and did something completely off the wall, you would be able to see that right.

00:37:54.224 --> 00:38:09.996
So we're accountable not just to the teams and the players involved in the game, we're accountable to our fans, and you can hold our feet to the fire because you can see in many instances, same thing that we're seeing.

00:38:09.996 --> 00:38:16.621
We're just using our judgment, our experience, our knowledge of the rules and, more importantly, how those rules are applied to the game.

00:38:16.621 --> 00:38:19.648
Um, and so you know, I think.

00:38:19.648 --> 00:38:20.268
I think it's.

00:38:20.268 --> 00:38:29.987
It's an important um point to make you know, like you're watching a game, watching your kids game, you have a lot of the same information that that referee on the ice has.

00:38:29.987 --> 00:38:32.521
Um, they're just imparting their judgment.

00:38:32.521 --> 00:38:36.942
They have the ability to impart their judgment on the play and and make a call that they make.

00:38:37.422 --> 00:38:50.827
Um, when you, you get preoccupied with the, the missed offside call, um to your point, you're, you're not just playing the other team, you're not playing the officials too, and you've lost, you're, you've lost the game.

00:38:50.827 --> 00:38:51.369
At that point.

00:38:51.369 --> 00:39:01.210
If that's your concern, if you feel like a single call has ruined the game for you, I hate to tell you, but you lost the game well before that same attack.

00:39:01.210 --> 00:39:15.003
Well said, yeah, and in fact, like you know, more often, most often overwhelmingly, it's a player's mistake that leads to a goal, that leads to a game being lost, right?

00:39:15.003 --> 00:39:16.327
Um, a coach's mistake.

00:39:16.327 --> 00:39:17.951
Like a referee, might you make a?

00:39:17.951 --> 00:39:20.382
Uh, an alliance makes a tough offside call.

00:39:20.382 --> 00:39:23.148
Um, a referee makes a tough penalty call.

00:39:23.148 --> 00:39:25.293
Like, what do you say when?

00:39:25.293 --> 00:39:26.101
When that happens?

00:39:26.101 --> 00:39:28.224
Like, well, we gotta, we gotta kill, we got to kill this penalty.

00:39:28.224 --> 00:39:29.608
And then you, you move on.

00:39:29.608 --> 00:39:33.835
Right, if I'm so preoccupied about that one call your.

00:39:33.835 --> 00:39:37.601
Your perspective has been lost, and probably so too, as the game.

00:39:38.945 --> 00:39:41.271
Yeah, you know, I've seen some crazy situations.

00:39:41.271 --> 00:39:57.471
One of the things that I think I've evolved as a parent and as a coach and a player for that matter, is, whether it's adult league or I'm on the bench, is is no matter what I'm feeling frustration, anger is to kind of move that aside and really collaborate with the referee or the linesman.

00:39:57.471 --> 00:40:00.306
Just tell me what you saw, tell me why you made that decision.

00:40:00.306 --> 00:40:03.447
I just recently had a situation.

00:40:03.447 --> 00:40:07.291
Actually, I was on a bench and we felt the official made a poor call.

00:40:07.291 --> 00:40:16.371
It was a situation where the puck, in our opinion, clearly hit the crossbar and they called it a goal, right, um, and it's very frustrating, okay.

00:40:16.371 --> 00:40:26.268
So the ref comes over and we said, very kindly, look, just tell us what you saw there, right, and he says I believe I saw the puck go in the net, um, and we just said, okay, thank you.

00:40:26.268 --> 00:40:30.204
We didn't yell at him, we didn't say this, that, this, that that's what he thinks he saw.

00:40:30.465 --> 00:40:41.585
Now, to this official's credit and I will say this is very rare, um, after the game he came up to us, he watched the footage we and we had a little bit better footage than live barn for this one, mike and he said he came up to this.

00:40:41.585 --> 00:40:42.286
I couldn't believe it, sean.

00:40:42.286 --> 00:40:44.260
He said listen, that puck 100 of the cross bar.

00:40:44.260 --> 00:40:44.942
I made the wrong call.

00:40:44.942 --> 00:40:46.083
And you know what?

00:40:46.083 --> 00:40:52.947
We shook his hand and we praised him for having the guts to come up to us and say I made the wrong call.

00:40:52.947 --> 00:40:55.365
Yeah, all right, I've seen that a few times.

00:40:55.365 --> 00:40:59.911
Right, but it proves your point, sean, that they really want to get it right.

00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:02.900
If he could have left the arena, nobody would have ever nothing would have happened, nothing.

00:41:02.900 --> 00:41:04.121
We would have never thought about it again.

00:41:04.121 --> 00:41:09.945
He went out of his way to come up to us and say that I've had refs come up to me on the ice and shake.

00:41:09.945 --> 00:41:11.106
I made the wrong call there.

00:41:11.106 --> 00:41:17.411
So there's a lot of honor in this position and I think also, though, the way we approach them right.

00:41:17.411 --> 00:41:18.871
I just want a conversation.

00:41:18.871 --> 00:41:20.893
I just want to know why you made that.

00:41:20.893 --> 00:41:23.376
It sounds funny the way I'm saying this.

00:41:23.376 --> 00:41:28.143
It can kind of get a ref on your side a little bit Just want to know what's going on, right.

00:41:28.143 --> 00:41:29.266
So respect brings back respect.

00:41:29.266 --> 00:41:31.190
If you scream at a ref, what do you think they're going to do?

00:41:31.190 --> 00:41:31.940
What?

00:41:31.960 --> 00:41:33.146
do you expect them to do?

00:41:33.146 --> 00:41:40.320
It's also your long-term view on this, and I don't think parents have that and they probably don't need to, because they're in and out of the game.

00:41:40.320 --> 00:41:53.914
But when you're in the game, right, and you're directing programs and you're overseeing multiple teams at multiple levels or you're in a position of authority within the sport, you have to understand that the more you, more you bring these officials into the funnel.

00:41:53.914 --> 00:42:03.550
If you want to keep the good ones, you've got to, they've got to get through the gauntlet and unfortunately, the ones that stick around are just the jackasses.

00:42:03.550 --> 00:42:10.510
Sometimes you're like of course this guy sticks around, he loves the controversy, they love the aggression, they like to be in control they have.

00:42:10.530 --> 00:42:12.164
No, you know they're somewhere along the line.

00:42:12.164 --> 00:42:13.407
They don't get that control right.

00:42:13.407 --> 00:42:15.541
So when they're on the ice they get to have that.

00:42:15.541 --> 00:42:20.311
But that doesn't help us as coaches and players as you go through.

00:42:20.311 --> 00:42:24.108
So the more you know good people, you could keep in the system.

00:42:24.108 --> 00:42:27.141
I don't mean you got to coddle, I mean listen officials make.

00:42:27.141 --> 00:42:31.751
When I used to rap, I used to when I used to love going through the bench like oh, rep, that was a horrible call, I'd go.

00:42:31.751 --> 00:42:32.673
You know what was a horrible call?

00:42:32.673 --> 00:42:36.715
You putting your first line out against that forechecking line because they just kicked your butt.

00:42:36.715 --> 00:42:37.559
That was a bad call.

00:42:37.559 --> 00:42:47.793
So I think the ability to have a discussion with coaches and understand that we're all like listen, my son's lacrosse game tonight is canceled because there's no official.

00:42:48.012 --> 00:42:52.742
Wow yeah, right, that's not situations, that's not yeah and and and.

00:42:52.782 --> 00:42:57.974
To me, if you're a parent that wants to see the sport survive, we need these.

00:42:57.974 --> 00:43:03.543
Like it's like you know, sean, you probably see it now too right, you walk in the rink and like, hey, who can do the clock today?

00:43:03.543 --> 00:43:06.309
It's like people just scatter for the exits.

00:43:06.309 --> 00:43:07.780
You know, like I can't do it.

00:43:07.780 --> 00:43:08.324
I can't do it.

00:43:08.324 --> 00:43:09.411
There's too much pressure it.

00:43:09.431 --> 00:43:10.255
There's too much pressure, my thumb hurts.

00:43:10.275 --> 00:43:13.389
The thing is like we want more people to help and more people to be involved.

00:43:13.389 --> 00:43:22.728
We have to understand we're in a collective here and that people have to support everybody in that ecosystem officials, coaches, refs, timekeepers does they have bony driver?

00:43:22.728 --> 00:43:25.400
Like, if you're just going to, you know, go off on everyone.

00:43:25.782 --> 00:43:34.052
we're not going to have sport left and I think, you know, I think if you're a parent and you're in it, just you're just there with your kid in there.

00:43:34.052 --> 00:43:50.184
I guess I don't expect you to see that, but as people of authority and people that are run these programs, we have to do a much better job of educating and reinforcing and and supporting these good officials that want to be in the game, because we need them later on.

00:43:50.701 --> 00:44:10.255
Right, and I'm glad you mentioned that, mike, because we've also seen a shortage of referees here and games being canceled or, you know, a whole shifting of schedules because not enough refs are in our area and there's a heavy recruitment drive now as well.

00:44:10.255 --> 00:44:27.346
So many parents want to shy away from it, not because they don't have the time, they just don't have the stamina to deal with all the negativity and I I mean and that's that's on you parents- that's you, so you can change that.

00:44:28.119 --> 00:44:44.052
And I think I think you know, know in the broader picture, you know we want our kids to love sports, we want our kids to love the things that we love, but we want to use sport to teach them lessons, right, to teach them life lessons.

00:44:44.052 --> 00:44:48.512
And one of the most important ones, in my opinion, if not the most important, is respect.

00:44:48.512 --> 00:45:00.514
And we don't do that when we get into the arena again, that logic that um is is lost on us, and or maybe more so when the puck gets dropped.

00:45:00.514 --> 00:45:04.291
But um, we have to teach our kids respect and learning.

00:45:04.893 --> 00:45:07.460
It's okay to be emotional about a bad call.

00:45:07.460 --> 00:45:08.945
You can be angry with that.

00:45:08.945 --> 00:45:15.971
You can also be angry when you have a bad shift, or when your teammate has a bad shift, your goalie lets in a bad goal.

00:45:15.971 --> 00:45:18.543
You can be angry and upset about all of those things.

00:45:18.543 --> 00:45:19.143
It's okay.

00:45:19.143 --> 00:45:26.405
But you can't turn around and be disrespectful to your teammates, to your coach, to the referee.

00:45:26.405 --> 00:45:35.231
You have to learn that respect and you have to learn how to play the game, because it's only going to get more difficult as you get older.

00:45:35.231 --> 00:45:42.211
When mistakes are made, you're going to be held accountable more often and you have to learn to be okay with that.

00:45:42.360 --> 00:45:47.422
So, again, learn to be okay with referees making a tough call.

00:45:47.422 --> 00:45:49.228
Be mad about it, that's fine.

00:45:49.228 --> 00:46:03.329
The referees won't, won't hold it against you, it's going to, it's going to teach kids a good life lesson, I think, and that's something I think we need to focus on a bit more.

00:46:03.329 --> 00:46:09.253
I think largely, you know our kids aren't dumb.

00:46:09.253 --> 00:46:21.503
They, they, they pick things up, they understand things and and, um, you know, they understand when, when a coach is being hard on them, and they understand how that that feels.

00:46:21.503 --> 00:46:33.103
If someone's being disrespectful to them, they may not be able to put words to it, but they understand the feeling and we got to teach our kids to, to, to, to do better than than that, you know.

00:46:34.947 --> 00:46:39.005
Yeah, sean, I'm going to dive all over that, jump all on that, because I'll tell you a few things that you're talking about.

00:46:39.005 --> 00:46:40.862
Respect, and respect leads to accountability.

00:46:40.862 --> 00:46:42.085
On in this format.

00:46:42.085 --> 00:46:44.351
Right, you said it, kids are not dumb, and you're right.

00:46:44.351 --> 00:46:51.853
When a kid sees their parent or their coach yelling at the refs and complaining to the refs and saying you ruined the game, you are teaching that kid.

00:46:51.853 --> 00:46:57.710
That is the process, right, right, and I'll give you a great example of getting the bird's eye view.

00:46:57.891 --> 00:47:04.161
You know, a lot of kids, when we're recording this, are in the kind of the parody tournament time here in Pennsylvania where they're putting them up against other teams.

00:47:04.161 --> 00:47:07.186
And I had a parent asked me well, what are you watching for?

00:47:07.186 --> 00:47:08.086
What are you looking for?

00:47:08.086 --> 00:47:09.929
And my answer shocked them I'm.

00:47:09.929 --> 00:47:23.344
I said I'm looking to see how these kids deal with adversity, right, I'm not looking at lineups, I'm not looking at skill, I'm looking at cause, teams picked already, right, I'm looking at when they go down to nothing, or they're up to nothing and they go down three to two, how do they respond?

00:47:23.344 --> 00:47:26.927
Because at that age I'm talking kind of the, the, the peewee squirt level.

00:47:26.927 --> 00:47:33.333
Right now, at that age, that's a skillset that coaches and parents should jointly be teaching, right?

00:47:33.333 --> 00:47:43.989
I want to see if they can come back from that situation or the bad call I'm going to echo what I said earlier Okay, it was bad call, now what?

00:47:44.009 --> 00:47:44.713
Okay, this kid didn't pass to you.

00:47:44.713 --> 00:47:45.719
Okay, agree with you, now what?

00:47:45.719 --> 00:47:59.905
That is a skillset that, both as individuals and teams, will help your kids grow, because, as we all know, life is going to throw things that there's no, there's no officiating in life, right, I mean, I'm sure a lot of people wish that.

00:47:59.905 --> 00:48:02.012
You know, when you get a car crash, a guy can come in with a whistle.

00:48:02.012 --> 00:48:03.902
Hey, you cut him off.

00:48:03.902 --> 00:48:05.422
That's too much, it doesn't work that way.

00:48:05.463 --> 00:48:10.590
You just got to deal with it Right, and I think that's it's a larger problem with society in general.

00:48:10.590 --> 00:48:16.096
But to I love that you brought up the word respect, because respect leads to accountability.

00:48:16.096 --> 00:48:18.449
You have to respect the other person in the play.

00:48:18.449 --> 00:48:24.309
And again, there's that famous quote that whenever an official makes a call, half the people on the ice think that person's wrong.

00:48:24.309 --> 00:48:27.184
It doesn't matter, half the people think they're wrong.

00:48:27.184 --> 00:48:31.460
So I think it's amazing that we even have the ability to look at these things.

00:48:31.460 --> 00:48:43.016
But I had to tap on that because that life lesson is so much more important than getting a Michigan or a wrist shot down or a glove hand or waving your stick.

00:48:43.016 --> 00:48:50.134
Those are the things, especially at the young ages, that develop these young athletes into the type of person that can be productive and a player.

00:48:51.739 --> 00:48:57.702
I'm rambling a bit here, but I wanted to ask you too, sean, just just about the situation, because I'm looking at the time here.

00:48:57.702 --> 00:49:03.766
Yeah, we're talking about officials and calls, but your job actually entails a lot more than that um, you had mentioned.

00:49:03.766 --> 00:49:09.128
You know, one of your responsibilities is also points right and awarding or taking away points from other plays.

00:49:09.128 --> 00:49:10.632
I want you to talk about that.

00:49:10.632 --> 00:49:22.331
And are there other additional responsibilities in that situation room that we don't think about, that we don't know about yeah, I guess let me let me speak to that last part first.

00:49:22.952 --> 00:49:42.045
Our group, as in general, we, we have there's a number, there's a few guys more senior than me that have, you know, a wealth of nhl playing experience and um, and you know some some with experience in coaching and managing, as I said before, um.

00:49:42.045 --> 00:49:53.987
But part of our group's responsibility is is looking at a bigger picture of the game, like, are there tweaks to rules that we think would be would be good to implement into the game?

00:49:53.987 --> 00:50:05.039
And we'll take those recommendations if we feel that there is, and we gather video evidence of these things and and we will present them to the general managers in in their meetings.

00:50:05.039 --> 00:50:17.137
So our, our boss, colin Campbell's responsible for putting those meetings on and, you know, coming up with the agenda for them, and we will put these things on the agenda to discuss.

00:50:17.137 --> 00:50:25.521
So we have a very heavy involvement in rule changes or rule interpretation changes.

00:50:25.521 --> 00:50:30.273
So that's obviously no small thing.

00:50:30.273 --> 00:50:38.230
That's a fairly important thing and we're always trying to to drive, you know, skill and and reward skill and and like.

00:50:38.230 --> 00:50:43.125
So we, as part of our nightly watching, we're looking for things like that.

00:50:43.125 --> 00:50:56.706
We're not always looking just to make change just to make change, but if we think something might benefit, and then we'll bring it to the managers and if there's traction, it might move on to the competition committee and so on, and if there isn't, we just move on, right.

00:50:56.706 --> 00:50:59.534
So that's, that's one thing you know.

00:50:59.755 --> 00:51:18.514
And then individuals within our group have different responsibilities, and some guys are on the you know protective equipment subcommittee and things like that, and one of my other responsibilities is, you know, kind of being the official, the NHL official scorer.

00:51:21.282 --> 00:51:32.001
So when a goal is scored, if there's a question as to who should get assists or who should get credit for the goal if it was a deflectionlection, something like that um, our auditing process will flag that play.

00:51:32.001 --> 00:51:40.505
It'll come to me to to review it within the situation room and all the the technology that we have, and then make a decision.

00:51:40.505 --> 00:51:49.382
Um, more often than not it's like we can't tell if this player got a touch on the puck, um, and should be awarded with an assist, and then we'll go look at it.

00:51:49.382 --> 00:52:03.771
Um, the more difficult ones are determining whether a defensive player gained control of the puck enough to negate an assist, and those tend to be the ones that you know you get the most pushback from the teams.

00:52:03.771 --> 00:52:20.726
The teams can request reviews of goals, so they'll send it to our stats department and they pass it on to me, and even the scorers in the building in real time can message and say we're having a tough time determining this one.

00:52:20.726 --> 00:52:22.068
Can you take a look at it?

00:52:22.068 --> 00:52:26.105
And so yeah, because player.

00:52:26.284 --> 00:52:28.251
X is leaning over the glass saying I got that assist.

00:52:28.251 --> 00:52:28.853
I got that assist.

00:52:28.853 --> 00:52:29.936
I need that for my bonus.

00:52:30.376 --> 00:52:37.072
Yeah, exactly, and fortunately, like we see it less because, again, there's so much video out there.

00:52:37.072 --> 00:52:39.949
It can be obvious.

00:52:39.949 --> 00:52:43.755
And yet we still get a lot of requests to review something.

00:52:43.755 --> 00:52:44.940
That is pretty obvious.

00:52:44.940 --> 00:52:49.632
They're just hoping something sticks and they'll get a break and get it.

00:52:49.632 --> 00:53:07.094
But I'll get messages from the teams to review something and you know you get messages from agents and the like, but I don't, we don't listen to, we don't acknowledge those.

00:53:07.094 --> 00:53:14.987
If they want a review, we tell them, tell your player to go through the PR director and and then we'll review it.

00:53:14.987 --> 00:53:17.070
Um, uh, so.

00:53:17.070 --> 00:53:25.853
So that can be contentious, especially in a world where where betting is is um a lot and is uh um, well, that doesn't.

00:53:25.853 --> 00:53:29.967
I don't have to take that into account when making a decision.

00:53:29.967 --> 00:53:32.172
I'm very well insulated from that.

00:53:32.172 --> 00:53:42.588
But I just got an email last night a pretty pointed email that I'm not very good at my job, from a random person.

00:53:42.588 --> 00:53:43.391
I don't know who it is.

00:53:45.101 --> 00:53:46.407
I'm sorry for sending that, sean.

00:53:46.407 --> 00:53:47.525
I should have cooled off.

00:53:48.483 --> 00:53:55.382
I think it was my son, my son's question was why is the league always against Sidney Crosby and the Penguins?

00:53:55.382 --> 00:53:56.923
I don't know, but that's that's.

00:53:58.847 --> 00:54:01.815
Because then Flyer fans are always saying why are you always saying that?

00:54:02.744 --> 00:54:03.768
I'm sitting here right now going.

00:54:03.768 --> 00:54:04.793
What are you talking about, Right?

00:54:07.125 --> 00:54:09.454
Yeah, so that's one of the things.

00:54:09.454 --> 00:54:14.817
And then you know, I'll also consult with our.

00:54:14.817 --> 00:54:21.137
We have a group of people working to automate a lot of our statistics.

00:54:21.137 --> 00:54:22.639
So like Time on Ice, as an example, with the trackers and the players' jerseys.

00:54:22.639 --> 00:54:34.532
Now, to automate a lot of our statistics, so, like time on ice, as an example, is with the trackers and the players jerseys, now we can get a really good, you know, accurate picture of exactly how many, how much time a player is on the ice and you remove some of the human error.

00:54:34.532 --> 00:54:45.927
So, anyway, and we're looking to automate a lot of statistics missed shots, shots on goal, shot attempts, things like that and so I will.

00:54:47.010 --> 00:54:49.317
Our stats analysts will consult with me.

00:54:49.317 --> 00:55:08.597
They'll say you know, we're creating definitions for play so that they can write code based off of that, so that when the AI system you know the course of the game can appropriately assign things to a bucket, and zeroing in on those definitions can be really difficult.

00:55:08.597 --> 00:55:19.554
You have a lot of what you call edge cases right, where it's like geez, this could go one way or the other, like, how do we want the system to, how do we want the AI to like assign these things?

00:55:19.554 --> 00:55:24.469
And it's really, really difficult and you're going to have those that can't be easily put into a bucket.

00:55:24.469 --> 00:55:46.025
So a lot of I do a lot of work with, with those, that group of people, to say to try to narrow that down so there are fewer exceptions or fewer gray area, ones that needs a human to go in and say I'm going to put this over here, right, so so that that's a really kind of fun um aspect of the job to work on.

00:55:46.045 --> 00:55:50.862
That wasn't initially something that was a responsibility of mine, neither was the scoring um.

00:55:50.862 --> 00:56:01.891
Our long-time chief statistician, benny ercolani, retired a number of years ago and um, and I was fortunate I have a great relationship with benny and I.

00:56:01.891 --> 00:56:15.594
I was fortunate that when he retired it was recommended that I take over that part of his responsibility and and so again, it wasn't like actually none of my career even existed when I was a kid.

00:56:15.594 --> 00:56:18.599
So it's not something you could, you could dream to work towards.

00:56:18.619 --> 00:56:19.483
I can't wait to do that.

00:56:19.483 --> 00:56:19.804
Yeah, yeah.

00:56:19.925 --> 00:56:21.612
Yeah, exactly yeah.

00:56:21.612 --> 00:56:27.211
So you know, it's just an added responsibility that came when Benny retired.

00:56:27.211 --> 00:56:42.032
It's like, yeah, you know, I clearly never thought of doing something like that or adding that to my responsibilities, but that could be pretty fun, pretty cool, and I'm really happy to do that part of the job.

00:56:42.032 --> 00:56:53.858
Now it's fun again, not without its controversy and not without its downside, but you're often telling players things they don't want to hear.

00:56:53.858 --> 00:56:57.614
But that's the job.

00:56:59.686 --> 00:57:10.336
It is amazing how much this game has evolved and the minutia of how it evolves, right when I think other sports leagues have a hard time making changes.

00:57:10.336 --> 00:57:14.737
The NHL has always been very forthright in saying look, we want to get this to the best it can be.

00:57:14.737 --> 00:57:17.434
And you know, sean, I'll be honest with you, you and I are getting to an age now.

00:57:17.434 --> 00:57:26.128
We've seen many iterations of this game, from you know, the six, six foot five, 220 pound, 90 era to really speed and talent and skill today.

00:57:26.128 --> 00:57:35.824
So I wanted to ask you, kind of, with the scope on, do you have any favorite rule changes or changes to the game that you've seen over your time there that you went?

00:57:35.824 --> 00:57:38.050
You know what this has just made the game so much better.

00:57:38.050 --> 00:57:41.847
Um, you know, a few pop in my head, but I'd love again.

00:57:41.847 --> 00:57:45.751
You're there, right, right, I'd love your thoughts on that, oh, that's a.

00:57:46.010 --> 00:57:48.516
That's a great question and a very difficult one.

00:57:48.516 --> 00:57:52.070
There's a lot, yeah, there's, there's a, there's a lot.

00:57:52.070 --> 00:58:09.552
I mean, I, I'm a big, big fan of anything that promotes skill and, and I think as the foundation of a lot of the rule changes, or the interpretation changes, have been to reward offense and reward skill.

00:58:09.552 --> 00:58:17.170
However, we still understand, and you want to reward players that are very good defensively.

00:58:17.170 --> 00:58:22.931
You want to keep the, the, the hitting in the game, the clean hitting in the game.

00:58:22.931 --> 00:58:36.880
So I think one of the things that I love that we've done or endeavored to do is to protect our players from those big sort of blindside hits that we can all remember.

00:58:36.880 --> 00:58:44.219
Yeah, to have specific plays that were like, maybe a lot of like.

00:58:44.699 --> 00:58:47.967
I always think of scott stevens, because he was my mind too.

00:58:47.967 --> 00:58:56.550
Yeah, just such an imposing player and and so much fun to watch, um, just so good and and so tough.

00:58:56.550 --> 00:59:00.137
Like some, a lot of his hits wouldn't be okay today.

00:59:00.137 --> 00:59:06.465
Um, and and I I don't mean to single him out there was plenty of players at that time.

00:59:06.505 --> 00:59:20.990
Yeah, but I love that we're working consistently and continuously to protect players but also still have that accountability that you can't come through the middle with your head down and expect not to get hit.

00:59:20.990 --> 00:59:23.164
You can't come through the middle with your head down and expect not to get hit.

00:59:24.005 --> 00:59:24.585
So I watched the game.

00:59:24.585 --> 00:59:34.358
I watched the game the other day where TJ Oshie actually was questioned about Panarin hitting him and TJ Oshie said you know, knowing that he makes hits like that, he's like I don't mind the hit.

00:59:34.358 --> 00:59:36.123
Like you know, I just thought it was a good hit.

00:59:36.123 --> 00:59:53.746
So when a player at least backs that up, when you have every capital fan in the world going crazy that it was an illegal hit and nobody, and then it turns out it wasn't even a call, like that's a good, like it's great that the players are able to say listen, I don't mind that hit, I like that hit yeah, yeah, a hundred percent.

00:59:54.226 --> 00:59:58.702
I love when, when players still have that perspective that you know.

00:59:58.702 --> 01:00:07.070
We see a lot of times now and and, mind you, we're very, very close in the room, like we're very we see everything right.

01:00:07.070 --> 01:00:19.117
So we can sometimes overthink it and see, say, oh, there's a lot of players turning their backs to hits and expecting they're not going to get hit.

01:00:19.117 --> 01:00:30.452
We maybe just overemphasize it like, cause you as a fan watching your team, probably only see that a couple of times or a handful of times and we were just so close to it, right.

01:00:30.873 --> 01:00:38.269
But but I love when players today hold themselves accountable and say I put myself in a bad spot there.

01:00:38.269 --> 01:00:40.875
That doesn't mean I liked getting hit.

01:00:40.875 --> 01:00:44.086
You don't have to say, oh, that was great, I'm so glad he did that.

01:00:44.086 --> 01:00:52.369
But you can that they can at least acknowledge I put myself in a tough spot there, I got to do better the next time around.

01:00:52.369 --> 01:00:57.244
I love that accountability that they can show.

01:00:57.244 --> 01:01:13.561
But again, to answer your question, I think I love anything that sort of continues to promote the skill that our players have, because I think it's what separates the NHL players from the non-NHL players.

01:01:13.561 --> 01:01:24.099
What they're able to do now at NHL speed is, I think, something that I marvel at every single night.

01:01:24.699 --> 01:01:31.652
Me too, and you know I watch like you watch like you get a little bit jaded when you're watching as much as I do.

01:01:31.652 --> 01:01:38.594
Like you just expect, because players do the right thing so often, they make the right smart play so often.

01:01:38.594 --> 01:01:52.117
So when you watch a preseason hockey game and you have players that are maybe not necessarily ready for the NHL yet, it's such a stark difference from preseason game to game 10 to game 50 of the season.

01:01:52.117 --> 01:02:20.898
Like these guys do things right all the time and the speed at which they're able to do that, as a function of of, maybe, the rules in 0405, when they changed from the 100 percent old era, the dead puck era, to to what it is now, is like I, I I marveled when I was a kid watching the nhl in that era, um, and maybe even more so now because the the yeah, um.

01:02:20.898 --> 01:02:28.911
So I don't know if I could put us like, say, one specific rule, um, but, but it would be anything.

01:02:28.911 --> 01:02:32.199
I guess that that promotes yeah no, sean, I agree with you.

01:02:32.219 --> 01:02:37.876
I think the emphasis on the talent, um over the structure of a person has been a beautiful thing.

01:02:37.876 --> 01:02:41.914
The speed of the game is what makes the game beautiful and yeah, you know it's, it's funny.

01:02:41.914 --> 01:03:03.364
You know, when we were growing up, I, I encourage parents especially that, maybe parents who weren't really around the game, uh, you know, before 2005 to watch a game from 1993 or or, you know, and and just the, the amount you could hold someone or obstruct someone, and mike I think mike used it as a lot that every play would be a penalty.

01:03:03.806 --> 01:03:08.990
Today, by today's rules, darryl Lemieux would have had 300 goals.

01:03:08.990 --> 01:03:10.635
People would just lay on him.

01:03:12.327 --> 01:03:13.391
Mike, that's a great point.

01:03:13.391 --> 01:03:18.251
I watched just a little snippet of a clip yesterday.

01:03:18.251 --> 01:03:24.193
I was like there was 10 penalties in that 20-second period of time.

01:03:24.193 --> 01:03:31.545
And think about how many of our record holders, right for whatever stat, are players from that era.

01:03:31.545 --> 01:03:35.914
You're like what if they had an opportunity to play under these rules?

01:03:35.914 --> 01:03:49.070
Now, like I don't know, there's no telling, obviously, but what Steve Eisenman was able to do he was my favorite player growing up and what he was able to do in that era is like man, I don't know.

01:03:49.070 --> 01:03:53.155
There was no space on that ice for someone like him and he still made it happen.

01:03:54.326 --> 01:03:56.090
There's a lot of lumberjacks at that time period.

01:03:56.090 --> 01:03:59.228
But, sean, I love in this area.

01:03:59.228 --> 01:04:00.672
We could go for hours and hours here.

01:04:00.672 --> 01:04:09.297
You know, I just want to thank you for being here, thank you for what you're doing for the game, because I think you're giving our audience extreme perspective from multiple fronts.

01:04:09.297 --> 01:04:15.998
One is just obviously an officiating front, but two is how committed the NHL is to getting it right.

01:04:15.998 --> 01:04:16.565
Right.

01:04:16.565 --> 01:04:20.608
And again, when you look at other sports, it's not close.

01:04:20.608 --> 01:04:22.170
I mean it's not close.

01:04:22.170 --> 01:04:25.251
I wish Major League Baseball would take the strike zone off the TV.

01:04:25.251 --> 01:04:26.652
I don't want to see it anymore.

01:04:26.652 --> 01:04:27.014
Right.

01:04:27.014 --> 01:04:30.536
And then the other thing too is the evolution of the game.

01:04:30.536 --> 01:04:34.420
The NHL is always trying to put a better product on the ice, and it's for the fans, right?

01:04:34.420 --> 01:04:36.601
People get lost in that.

01:04:36.601 --> 01:04:37.322
Well, they're doing this.

01:04:37.322 --> 01:04:38.885
They want this team to win.

01:04:38.885 --> 01:04:40.530
I can tell you this from my time there.

01:04:40.530 --> 01:04:41.291
Sean can tell you this.

01:04:41.291 --> 01:04:42.213
That is not true.

01:04:42.213 --> 01:04:44.679
There's no master script or master plan.

01:04:44.679 --> 01:04:48.447
You're committed to this, making this the best product it can possibly be.

01:04:49.168 --> 01:04:57.030
I've never been sent an email, a memo, a text message, a phone call that said anything.

01:04:57.030 --> 01:05:00.016
Any game, anything needs to go a certain way.

01:05:00.016 --> 01:05:05.673
Like it and if it, if something like that ever happened, don't you think it would have got out somehow?

01:05:05.733 --> 01:05:08.934
Like yeah people don't keep that kind of thing quiet, right.

01:05:08.934 --> 01:05:42.818
But I do want to emphasize one other thing and I think what, what separates us from our review process, I should say, from other, most other professional sports and, mind you, every professional league has come through our room, right, right, how we do what we do, collaboration there, for sure, we we were the first to have centralized video review, so every major professional sports league has come to us to see the technology we use, the process that we we have in place, and we're unique in that we're not officials.

01:05:42.818 --> 01:05:47.110
None of us were referees or linesmen.

01:05:47.110 --> 01:05:50.358
We all played hockey at different levels.

01:05:50.358 --> 01:05:59.630
Like I say, the guys more senior than me in our group played in the NHL and whenever they had that experience, we all played the game, but we didn't officiate the game.

01:05:59.630 --> 01:06:11.077
We think it's important that we have that in place, because we're not former referees looking to confirm our current referees call Like we want to see it.

01:06:11.077 --> 01:06:18.653
We think we can see it more objectively as a result, and we're also not members of the team, so we're not looking at it from a team through the team's lens.

01:06:18.653 --> 01:06:29.056
We're looking at the play and the unique set of circumstances that that play, that consists of that play and and we're making a judgment based off of that.

01:06:29.056 --> 01:06:33.501
So every play is a snowflake and you know, people want to compare one play to the other.

01:06:33.501 --> 01:06:43.907
We see the nuance and that's what we get paid to do, that's what our responsibility is to to make a decision on that play for that unique set of circumstances.

01:06:44.768 --> 01:06:51.132
I think again, I just wanted to make that point I think that's one of the things that separates us from the other sports leagues.

01:06:51.132 --> 01:06:53.478
I'm not just talking about North American.

01:06:53.478 --> 01:06:58.516
Like we've had Aussie rules football and national basketball league in Australia.

01:06:58.516 --> 01:07:03.956
We've had horse racing leagues come, come through, I mean, like you name it.

01:07:03.956 --> 01:07:17.487
They've come through to see what we do and it's about the process and you can take that, you know, within hockey, you could put it to basketball, you could put it to football, like any other sport.

01:07:17.487 --> 01:07:18.630
It's the process.

01:07:18.630 --> 01:07:27.248
But again, that's what I think separates us is I think we're still the only group, that league, that does it without it being officials.

01:07:27.248 --> 01:07:38.056
We have a retired official in the room with us as a someone to give us some some officiating experience and to give us their perspective.

01:07:38.056 --> 01:07:41.434
But ultimately all those decisions are made by us.

01:07:41.434 --> 01:07:46.407
We have the final say and we can overrule the referees, and I think that's what.

01:07:46.407 --> 01:07:47.230
What again?

01:07:47.230 --> 01:07:48.795
What separates us from the other leagues?

01:07:49.264 --> 01:07:50.351
Checks and balances, right?

01:07:50.351 --> 01:07:51.177
I mean it's.

01:07:51.177 --> 01:07:52.505
It's incredible, sean.

01:07:52.505 --> 01:07:58.231
I want to ask you too, just for the parents listening, the coaches listening again, it's all about youth hockey on this show, right?

01:07:58.231 --> 01:07:59.695
Any, any words of wisdom?

01:08:13.585 --> 01:08:16.430
any thoughts is the person that you are in your position for them when they they go to their next kids game.

01:08:16.430 --> 01:08:22.780
Um, perspective, um, remember what age your, your kids, are and and I speak from my experience with a nine-year-old try to see the world through their eyes.

01:08:22.780 --> 01:08:29.354
You know they're kids still and I want my kid to be a kid.

01:08:29.354 --> 01:08:37.907
I want them to learn to take things seriously and have that responsibility and accountability, but I can't teach them that in one day.

01:08:37.907 --> 01:08:39.871
It's a process.

01:08:39.871 --> 01:08:43.819
You build a base layer and you continue to layer on top of that.

01:08:43.819 --> 01:08:49.461
Um, every day, um, there's going to it's there's going to be steps back.

01:08:49.461 --> 01:08:51.386
It's two steps forward, one step back.

01:08:51.386 --> 01:08:56.078
Some days, some months, it's one step forward and two steps back, and that's okay.

01:08:56.078 --> 01:09:10.475
Um, it's all about perspective for me, and and being objective and understanding that our kids are kids and um, the likelihood that any one of our kids is the next Sidney Crosby not very high.

01:09:10.475 --> 01:09:12.698
Um, they could be.

01:09:12.698 --> 01:09:36.918
I won't say they they're not, but they're probably not and they're probably going to enjoy other things in life and hockey is just one of those things and um, so I want my, my kids to to love the things that I love, but, more importantly, I want them to love the things that they love and and if they go and have a bad game, a bad tryout, a bad practice, like it's okay.

01:09:36.918 --> 01:09:48.932
You know, um, we all have bad days at work, we have bad days, days in in in our life and I don't want that to be held against me, so we shouldn't hold that against our, our kids as well.

01:09:48.932 --> 01:09:55.271
And, and for the kids it's, it's just fully enjoy what you're doing.

01:09:55.271 --> 01:10:09.208
You know, like, if it ever becomes a, a burden, if it ever becomes a drag, if it you look to do something else, you're a kid and allow yourself to be a kid.

01:10:10.291 --> 01:10:26.375
I was again at my son's tryout last night and the group that was going on after them were a few years older and the kids were playing volleyball to warm up up and it quickly devolved into just spiking the ball at each other, like trying to hit each other in the head.

01:10:26.375 --> 01:10:29.252
It was pretty funny, but I'm talking with another parent.

01:10:29.252 --> 01:10:40.694
The balls come whizzing by our heads and you know we're, we're ducking and and it was a good reminder of, like kids, being kids and having zero awareness of anybody else around them.

01:10:40.694 --> 01:10:54.113
And it's okay, because I remember being that kid and playing and having that much fun and not having any awareness of any adults around me and the impact I might have on them If it crosses a line.

01:10:54.172 --> 01:11:01.818
Somebody would say something right, but they were kids being kids and there's nothing I love more than watching my kid be a kid.

01:11:01.818 --> 01:11:06.345
There's nothing I love more than watching my kid be a kid.

01:11:06.345 --> 01:11:09.479
It's a special time in his life and in his hockey career.

01:11:09.479 --> 01:11:16.954
If he continues to have one, being nine years old, it's one of the last times you're going to be able to just be a kid playing a sport.

01:11:16.954 --> 01:11:18.845
It's starting to get more and more serious.

01:11:18.845 --> 01:11:27.489
I don't want parents, especially at the u10, u11 age and below, getting too far ahead of themselves.

01:11:27.489 --> 01:11:32.470
Um right, yeah, I think that happens a little too much now I would agree.

01:11:32.511 --> 01:11:38.171
I think that's one of the reasons we have the audience that we have, who we appreciate very much, because I think they're looking for sage advice.

01:11:38.752 --> 01:11:50.925
Yeah and I want to say too, like in listening to a lot of your, your episodes and and I think it's so great that I think probably a lot of the listeners are people that want to do better.

01:11:50.925 --> 01:11:51.367
They're not.

01:11:51.367 --> 01:11:58.451
They're probably not the parents standing on the glass screaming and and getting into fights and and and the like like you.

01:11:58.451 --> 01:12:15.136
You listen to things like this, shows like this, and because you're, you're wanting to be better as a parent for your kid, and so I applaud what you guys do here and your listeners in listening to you so that they can be better hockey parents and maybe parents in general.

01:12:15.136 --> 01:12:17.832
I think it's really special.

01:12:17.832 --> 01:12:19.630
So I'm really honored and happy to have been here with you today.

01:12:19.630 --> 01:12:20.393
Appreciate you having me.

01:12:20.393 --> 01:12:23.061
Thank you, sean, that's a very nice compliment to us and the listeners to have been here with you today.

01:12:23.082 --> 01:12:23.603
Appreciate you having me.

01:12:23.603 --> 01:12:24.024
Thank you, sean.

01:12:24.024 --> 01:12:27.475
That's a very nice compliment to us and the listeners and we agree with you.

01:12:27.475 --> 01:12:34.033
We think that the dad's screaming over the glass Probably not a big listener, probably not coming on here week to week, but they're always welcome.

01:12:34.033 --> 01:12:36.951
We're still waiting for that email to come in of.

01:12:36.951 --> 01:12:40.378
I am this fan and I hate your show because you're speaking logic.

01:12:44.265 --> 01:12:44.546
Oh, it's coming.

01:12:44.546 --> 01:12:45.970
Don't worry, I get that by the looks and the rink.

01:12:45.970 --> 01:12:46.733
That's how I know.

01:12:47.213 --> 01:12:47.735
Yeah, no, no.

01:12:47.735 --> 01:12:50.849
I roll like oh, this guy, you got to give him that.

01:12:50.849 --> 01:12:52.247
Stare down, mike Christy.

01:12:52.247 --> 01:12:53.833
Anything before I close this out.

01:12:54.826 --> 01:12:56.913
No, Sean, thank you so much.

01:12:56.913 --> 01:13:03.298
You gave us such a neat, rare inside look in that situation room.

01:13:03.298 --> 01:13:05.712
It was what a treat for us.

01:13:05.712 --> 01:13:06.375
Thank, you.

01:13:06.375 --> 01:13:13.878
And it's much more sophisticated and interesting than I even imagined it to be.

01:13:13.878 --> 01:13:16.193
So this was, this was great.

01:13:16.787 --> 01:13:17.408
Thank you so much.

01:13:17.408 --> 01:13:21.356
Yeah, we're not a group of people just kicking our feet up to watch hockey.

01:13:21.356 --> 01:13:22.434
We're involved a little bit more.

01:13:22.453 --> 01:13:24.594
I just kicking our feet up to watch hockey, we're involved a little bit more.

01:13:24.594 --> 01:13:25.503
I just see it as the ultimate man cave.

01:13:25.503 --> 01:13:27.581
You're like oh my God, there's TVs everywhere.

01:13:27.581 --> 01:13:27.984
Guys are.

01:13:27.984 --> 01:13:29.289
Somebody bring out the blue.

01:13:29.851 --> 01:13:35.497
Yeah Well, we're in the process of building a brand-new room that will be open next season.

01:13:35.497 --> 01:13:37.729
It will be even more special than the one we had.

01:13:37.748 --> 01:13:38.951
Oh good, we want it in-pipe.

01:13:38.951 --> 01:13:39.731
We want an invite.

01:13:39.731 --> 01:13:40.273
We want an invite.

01:13:40.313 --> 01:13:44.279
Anytime you guys are in Toronto and you want to come take a lick, reach out.

01:13:44.279 --> 01:13:48.448
It's going to happen now.

01:13:48.448 --> 01:13:50.131
Bring it to you live.

01:13:50.131 --> 01:13:50.532
Yeah, exactly.

01:13:51.493 --> 01:13:54.399
I just want to know why the Michigan isn't called a high stick every time.

01:13:56.328 --> 01:13:56.909
That's all I want to know.

01:13:56.909 --> 01:13:59.436
There you go, because it's kept below the height of the crossbar.

01:13:59.436 --> 01:13:59.917
All right?

01:13:59.938 --> 01:14:00.359
Well, let's see.

01:14:01.487 --> 01:14:02.251
We all knew that.

01:14:02.965 --> 01:14:02.984
I.

01:14:02.984 --> 01:14:04.387
It's kept below the height of the crossbar, all right.

01:14:04.387 --> 01:14:04.849
Well, let's see.

01:14:04.849 --> 01:14:05.992
Like we all knew, that I could make.

01:14:06.032 --> 01:14:06.913
I could make a good argument about that.

01:14:06.935 --> 01:14:07.817
Yeah, I'll be on the next one.

01:14:07.817 --> 01:14:11.328
Hey, we've we've had a pretty good conversation about that.

01:14:11.328 --> 01:14:14.654
Uh, not this, like 10 years ago probably.

01:14:14.654 --> 01:14:21.497
Um, like it was like the what if, like what if this, because we knew that that goal happening in college, right, you knew it.

01:14:21.497 --> 01:14:23.229
Like what happens when this happened.

01:14:23.229 --> 01:14:44.287
It wasn't if it happens in a game, it was when it happens, right, and we had a really healthy conversation about it and and I don't think anything in our rules currently, um, you could use to to say it's illegal, but, um, you know, but there was a time where the spinorama was legal in in a penalty shot or a shootout and now it's not.

01:14:44.306 --> 01:14:57.326
So, um, yeah, never say never, but I love the competition remember kids practice more than that shot well, I have to have you back on sean, but, uh, I appreciate you being here greatly today.

01:14:57.326 --> 01:14:59.752
Again, if you have questions, uh, you can send them to us.

01:14:59.752 --> 01:15:02.868
Team at our kids play hockeycom is the email.

01:15:02.868 --> 01:15:06.734
Uh, if you've got enough questions for Sean I'm sure you all will We'll do a second episode.

01:15:06.734 --> 01:15:10.564
Just please don't make it like why in this game back in 1997?

01:15:10.564 --> 01:15:13.011
We're not going to discuss those on the air.

01:15:13.564 --> 01:15:16.354
Don't bring up the Hasek, the St Louis game.

01:15:18.268 --> 01:15:19.260
We're not doing 99.

01:15:19.260 --> 01:15:20.426
We're not doing any of those things.

01:15:20.466 --> 01:15:21.389
This is we're moving forward.

01:15:21.389 --> 01:15:23.975
The Brett Holtz on the crease rule yeah Right, All right.

01:15:25.697 --> 01:15:29.820
That's going to do it for this episode of Our Kids Play Hockey, powered by NHL Sense Arena.

01:15:29.820 --> 01:15:46.168
Remember you can see or listen to all of our episodes at ourkidsplayhockeycom, for Sean Ellis, christy Cash, adam Burns and Mike Ben going to see on the next episode.

01:15:46.168 --> 01:15:47.634
People, make sure you're enjoying the spring and the summer.

01:15:47.634 --> 01:15:50.225
Get outside and enjoy it, because we enjoy and we appreciate you Skate on everybody.

01:15:50.225 --> 01:15:52.990
We hope you enjoyed this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey.

01:15:52.990 --> 01:15:59.890
Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value, wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network or our website, ourkidsplayhockeycom.

01:15:59.890 --> 01:16:04.679
Also, make sure to check out our children's book when Hockey Stops at whenhockeystopscom.

01:16:04.679 --> 01:16:09.354
It's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life.

01:16:09.354 --> 01:16:10.457
We're very proud of it.

01:16:10.457 --> 01:16:14.756
But thanks so much for listening to this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey and we'll see you on the next episode.