Focusing on the Human Behind the Player & Building Better Athletes with John O'Sullivan

Lee MJ Elias [0:08 - 1:12]: Hello hockey friends and families around the world and welcome to another episode of our Kids Play Hockey. I'm Lee Elias and I'm joined by the exceptional Christy Casciano Burns and the magnificent Mike Benelli. We have been asked over the years multiple times if there is a book we recommend specifically for parents on how to navigate the youth sports world. Well, my friends, we are not only going to recommend a book today, we have the with us to answer questions for you. Joining us today for his second appearance on the show is bestselling author, internationally known speaker, top rated podcaster, and one of the, if not the top thought leader in the space of Youth Sports, John O'Sullivan. And his newest book is titled the Champion Sports Parent Practical Wisdom for Raising Confident, Competitive, Mentally Tough Athletes, which dives directly into the topics that we all care about on this show, such as becoming a more self aware parent, working with your children on their mental game, forging relationships with coaches, something we love here, navigating difficult situations and scenarios and much, much more. With that said, we have the expert here, so let's hear from him. John, welcome to our Kids Play Hockey. 

john O'Sullivan [1:12 - 1:16]: Thank you to you guys. I appreciate it. So fun to be back on and see you all again. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:16 - 1:46]: It goes both ways, my friend. And look, to start the show off, when we had you on last time, we reviewed some of the great things to say to your kid before any competition or practice. And in addition to I love you no matter what happens out there, you added on one that was really impactful. You said, I love watching you play. It's now something that I say and the number of people who have come up to me and reached out to us to thank us for sharing, that was pretty impactful. So I want to start by thanking you for sharing that wisdom. 

john O'Sullivan [1:46 - 2:24]: Oh, well, thank you. And it's certainly not an original idea of mine and I heard it from other people. And there's a wonderful woman out there named Asia Mape who's got a whole website called I Love Watching youg Play and Bruce Brown, you know, so it's there. But I mean, that's a biblical idea I think, right? Like, you know, just love watching your kids no matter what and let them, let them know that your love of them does not depend on whether they win or lose or how they play. And when you do that, it frees them to get after it and pursue the things that they love without worrying about upsetting mom and dad. 

Lee MJ Elias [2:24 - 3:10]: Yeah, well, the comfort that I see in the eyes of not just my children but other children when I see parents say that you can see it right away. I mean, the impact is there that you can see that the fear of trying to impress the parents kind of drops away a little bit. Because one of the things that bugs all of us here is when we're in the stands or on the bench and a kid makes a mistake and they give that scared look to their mom or dad for, oh my God, I made a mistake. It's not something you ever want to see. But listen, I want to turn towards the new book that's the focus of the show today. I want to thank you now for writing this book because I know this is something you've wanted to do for a while. So my first question to you is, why was now the right time? And can you tell us a little bit about the research that went into this? Because I know it was pretty extensive. 

john O'Sullivan [3:11 - 4:57]: Yeah. So obviously, you know, I have a co author, Dr. Jerry Lynch. We did this book together, we did our last book together called the Champion Teammate. And I had written a book. My first book was a book called Changing the Game and it was a book for parents. And that was back in 2013. And so that one had a lot of the facts and figures and the research and things like that and wanted to kind of do something a little bit different. Jerry and I, we had so many teams and coaches by the Champion Teammate to do group reads and build their culture and have a great season. But they're like, man, is there anything for the parents so that we could give them something alongside this? Like, hey, this is what your kids are working on. But if you work on this piece, they're going to have a better season, you're going to have better relationship and you're going to have better conversations about it. And so, you know, so Jerry and I, you know, decided to that like this was a good time to release this book. And so it was a great collaboration again, you know, we split the chapters and then gave feedback to each other. And much like the champion teammate, we wanted it to be like they're really short chapters, they're four pages and then they have reflection questions at the end. And we would hope people would go and take the time to just sit down and hey, what do I need to start doing to be this or what I need to stop doing, you know, that I'm doing that's hurting my kids performance. And so, yeah, so it felt like it was the right time to do that. And with the amount of people using our book for their high school team or their Club team, or, I mean, tons of college teams. I actually just had a Indy car racing team. Bought 130 copies. 

Lee MJ Elias [4:57 - 4:58]: Wow. 

john O'Sullivan [4:59 - 4:59]: Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [4:59 - 5:01]: It wasn't Keanu Reeves, was it? He's not. 

john O'Sullivan [5:01 - 5:14]: No, it wasn't Keanu Reeves, but my son's a big car guy. When I showed him the website, they just bought 130 of my books. I think I went up like a notch or two of my son's lives, which was nice. 

Christie Casciano [5:15 - 5:40]: All right, well, let's say I want to be a champion sports parent. What are some of the traits that I need to have? What are some of the tools I should have in my toolbox? And what makes. What would give you a big F on a parent? Like, how would you grade them? Where do they fail? Where do they succeed? And, you know, if you could give us a list of what you say this makes a champion sports parent. 

john O'Sullivan [5:40 - 6:38]: Right. Well, I'll say you use a really important word there, Christie, which is be. Right? Like, it's a choice. It's something that you're going to be. It's not something that you become. It's a way of being. So you can start right now, by the way, that you just, you know, first it starts with you. Like, it starts with an internal look and self awareness. And just like, I think, you know, we talked the last time I was on about coaching starts with self awareness, being a great parent. So are you living vicariously through your children's performance or, you know, have you sort of stepped back and let them go and let the game belong to them? Are you, you know, and so how do you know if you're doing that? Well, if you find yourself using things like we struck out 10 batters or we scored three goals today, that's a pretty bad sign that you haven't really, you know, let go. No. Your kid scored three goals, right? 

Christie Casciano [6:38 - 6:40]: Yeah, I hear that all the time. 

john O'Sullivan [6:40 - 6:41]: Yeah. Yeah. 

Christie Casciano [6:41 - 6:43]: We almost beat that team today. 

john O'Sullivan [6:43 - 9:01]: I'm like, no, no, you didn't. Right. So, you know, if you're living and dying with every play and feeling the need to yell out instructions and coach, which they probably can't hear you on the other side of the boards anyway, and if they can, it's certainly not helpful. Right, Lee? Like what you're saying, like, if a kid makes a mistake and they look to the stands, it's a really bad sign, right? It's a really bad sign. They're not coached. They're not focused on the game. They're focused on, you know, what's dad or Mom's reaction to that. And so there's so many things you can do, Right. And we talked about already loving them unconditionally, letting them go, modeling the behavior that you want to see from them, taking the perspective, like, you know, in the introduction of the book, I talk about, what's your youth sports mission statement? What is the purpose of sport in your kids life? Why did you put them in sport? And no one would ever write down like, you know, to have three ACL injuries and quit by 17. Right. And so none of this is about like not competing or working hard. But hey, I want my kid to learn to face adversity and struggle through hard times and understand what it's like to work year after year to get better at something that's really hard to do and be a great teammate and be surrounded by positive role models and all this sort of thing. This is why I put my kid in sport. And so all the decisions where we put our kid, how we behave, what's acceptable and what's not, should support that reason. Right. And that's it. And I mean, I think, you know, not to ramble on too much, but one of the biggest ones that I see personally is adversity. Right? Like, let your kids experience adversity. The scariest thing for any employer is a 25 year old who's never failed because they're going to fail. Right. And so sport is this wonderful venue for them to do that and for you to be the adult in the room and help them gain perspective around their failure and their disappointment. 

Christie Casciano [9:02 - 9:02]: Right. 

Lee MJ Elias [9:03 - 9:47]: You know, I was just going to say, John, one of the questions we have here, you just tapped on it. One chapter that I wanted to focus on specifically is called detachment from control. And you're alluding to that now and how detachment doesn't mean that you don't care. In fact, it's quite the opposite. So building on what you just said, how can a parent recognize that they may need to review that or that they're doing that? Because I think that a lot of times parents will go, well, I don't do that. And it's like, well, you do and you don't recognize that you're doing it. So we're talking about consciousness, I think a bit here, right? How can a parent become conscious to that, hey, you are not detaching, you know, or what questions can they ask themselves to maybe do an audit of that? 

john O'Sullivan [9:47 - 11:57]: Yeah, I mean, we talked about the one if you find yourself using the word we. Right, right. Instead of he or she. That's one number two, you know, I'm always amazed. I watched like the parents filming their kids game and they're still yelling out like instructions. I'm like, just watch the video you just filmed. Like, can you possibly do that and be like, you know, come on, I mean, listen to yourself. So, so that's it. But you know, years ago this woman, Nicole Lavoie told me, she was like, she's like, you know, John, parents are vampires. And I was like, what? Whoa, what does that mean? And because I don't watch vampire movies. And she goes, well, what happens when vampires look in the mirror? They can't see their reflection. And so most people though, well, that's not me. Right. Well, you know, my kid won't drop out or my kid won't do this because my kid's different. And three years later their kid does quit. And so I think that's the, that's the thing is just this letting go of this. And you know, one of the easiest ways to do that is. And it's easier for me to say this now, I have a college freshman and a high school senior. So I've seen the whole youth sports journey. But sport is not something that ends when you're 18. Like that sport is something I want my kids to do their whole life. Right. I'm 52 and you know, I still ski and bike and don't really play soccer anymore, but you know, I still do these things. I had friend, my friend here talked me into pickleball this week. Oh no. But, but anyway, you know, it's like, you know, 6 to 16 is a small slice of a 60 year journey in sport. Right, right. And so, so what happens this month really doesn't matter. Right? Really doesn't matter. Unless it's so psychologically emotionally damaging that it could affect the rest of her life. And that's when it's apparently intervened. 

Lee MJ Elias [11:57 - 12:33]: Right. But there's a lot of different scenarios that could create that too. I do want to dive back to the book as a whole here. There's four distinct sections in this book and you kind of mentioned them in your earlier question, but they're called to be a better parent, be a better you. I think we're talking about that right now. Teaching your child the inner game. Coaches are your allies, not your adversaries as a coach. Mike and I thank you for, for writing that. And then the last one is game day champion parent behaviors. I want to explore the order of that for a moment and why you chose to do it in that order. 

john O'Sullivan [12:33 - 13:44]: Sure. Well, number one, we just talk about the beginning of any great coaching is self awareness. And I think the beginning of great parenting is self awareness and why am I doing this and what's the purpose of this? Then the inner game, we felt like that flowed from that simply because when you exhibit the right behaviors as a parent, then you know, the single greatest thing that affects performance is between your ears. I don't care what sport your kid is playing. Right. And what we want to do is strip away all the things in here that interfere. And that's self doubt, bad self talk again, fear of letting your coaches, your parents down, all that sort of stuff. So really what the second section is about, how do you help your kids? And it's not, you know, we do talk about meditation and visualization. And I just want to say to any parents listening to this, like, you know, if you think that the people at the top of sport aren't doing that right now, you're sorely mistaken. It's not some woo woo thing, like, right, I. Right. 

Lee MJ Elias [13:44 - 13:45]: I heard so many videos of it. 

john O'Sullivan [13:46 - 15:17]: Yeah, so many videos of it. I mean, the top athletes meditate, just doing a little visualization before games. The teams do this. They have psychologists. I mean, Jerry, my co author, just signed on in a consultancy with San Jose Sharks. So like, this is, this is happening at the top. So if you don't think that they're investing time and money into like, how can we maximize performance? They are, and this is part of it. So helping your kid with the inner game is not some woo thing. It's, it's what the top athletes are doing to maximize performance. So that, and then we wanted sort of the practical stuff, right? So coaches are your allies, not your adversaries. Is, you know, how to set proper boundaries. When you should have conversations, what they should entail, what's okay to talk about, what's not okay to talk about, all that sort of stuff and that, you know, most coaches, not all, there's bad coaches, there's bad teachers, there's bad everything. But they have the best interest of your kid in mind as well. They love your kid. Right? No one's doing it for the money. They're doing it because they love coaching, they love being around kids and stuff like that. So, you know, I think I, I think that's it. And then the last one is just like on game day, what should you do before the game? What should you do during and, and then, you know, on the ride home and afterwards, you know, one of the. 

Lee MJ Elias [15:17 - 15:20]: Next turn in There. Yeah. 

Christie Casciano [15:20 - 15:24]: Mike, did you want to the question, it looks like. 

Mike Bonelli [15:24 - 16:25]: Oh, no. Well, I mean, I mean I, I mean I, I just, I just obviously we talked this about this a lot. But I love the, the coaches of your allies piece because, you know, ultimately, you know, they're the ones that are controlling all of these things that are happening. Right? You, you don't, you don't. As a parent, you have to relinquish that control because that coach, good or bad, you know, great coach, bad coach, I don't know. But they're, they, they're dealing with their 20 athletes and you're only dealing with you and your athlete. Right. So I think, can you, can you just talk a little bit about more how, you know, you can coach your player to talk and as a parent you need to learn that too. Right? How do you coach your player, your student athlete to approach a bad coach or a bad situation and have that conversation? Because ultimately they're the ones that have to make the decision on playing time and where you play and how much you play and who you play with. You know, that's something you really can't control until when, I guess the season ends most, most of the time. 

john O'Sullivan [16:25 - 17:46]: Right? Yeah. And I think, Mike, that's such a important point. Number one, that your child gets 100% of your attention and 1/20 of your coach's attention or 1/16th or however many on the roster. Right. When your kid's on the ice, there's the coach is watching six people on the ice and you're watching one. Right. So you're going to see things that the coach doesn't see. And when they don't see the same thing you do, it doesn't mean, you know that, oh, that kid took a cheap shot of my kid. Why didn't you do anything? I didn't see. It doesn't mean they don't care about your kid. It means that they're coaching other people at that moment or they're looking at a different part of the game. I mean, I think great coaches, oftentimes they're not coaching the person on the puck, they're looking at the positioning of people around the puck. And hockey, like soccer, which is what I coach, is about understanding space. Right. How much, much time is a hockey player have the puck in a game a minute? Right. If that. Right. So it's really. Yeah, if that. So if There are other 20 something minutes on the ice, it's about understanding and finding and exploiting space. Right. So, so that's number one. And Then number two. Sorry, Mike, I'm just slightly spaced in your second part of your question there, which was super important, what was that? 

Mike Bonelli [17:46 - 17:54]: Well, I mean, it's just, it's just really more like how do you coach, how do you as a parent coach your, your player to approach that adult conversations? 

john O'Sullivan [17:54 - 17:55]: That's right. 

Mike Bonelli [17:56 - 18:10]: Because I see it all the time. Like I hear kids screaming and yelling at officials. I'm like, this is a 50 year old man getting yelled at by a 15 year old. Like you think they really want to deal with this? Like, like you have to get, you have to teach your player to get above that. 

john O'Sullivan [18:10 - 20:49]: Yeah. Oh yeah, that's great. And, and what's, what's great is like I'm doing the same thing with my own son right now. He's a senior in high school. He's the captain of his team, the new coach. He's a little bit frustrated and I'm helping him navigate conversations and those are, I don't plan on ever speaking to his coach the entire season. That's your job. You're 17 years old. Right. You're a leader of your team. And helping him understand there's certain decisions that a coach might make in tactics or formation, that's not really, that's their job. That's why they're the coach. Right. And so, and so you know, as a captain you can have a voice and say, you know, hey coach, you know, I understand that you are the one who made that decision of we're going to play that way. But you know, it would be really helpful for our team if we practiced it a bit more before the game. Right. That's where your voice is. And I think what's the challenge as a parent is to help your kid have the healthy respect for a teacher and a coach without losing self respect. Right. You also, I think an athlete carry a little bit of healthy, I don't want to call, you know, disrespect is not the right word. But like you also have to stand up for what you believe as well. And navigating, advocate for yourself and for your team while at the same moment also understand that that person has a job and has been given a title and, and you know, you're, you agreed to be on that team. So there's certain decisions he's going to make that you're going to have to live with. But as a parent, I don't want to solve that problem for my son. I want him to have a conversation and like one of the cool things was he had this really good conversation, him and his other captains. And then he came home and said. And it went really well. And I said, did you send him a note saying, thanks for having that talk, Coach? And he's like, no. I'm like, that's what you need to do right now. You're going to bring a loop to this and say, coach, we all want the same thing. And I really appreciate the talk. And, you know, I think that's a great path forward for our team. Right? And he did. And then the coach wrote back, said, thank you so much. You know, you're a great captain. You're doing a great job. Right. So that's where I, as the adult, can add in a little note of gratitude because the coach gave you a little slack goes a long way. 

Lee MJ Elias [20:50 - 23:22]: John, I'm going to talk about gratitude a moment, too. I'm glad you brought that up. Quick story for you, for the parents out here, right. Just this past week, I was working with an elementary school team. So these are younger kids, kind of 10 and down, and we were in a situation, and parents, listen, this also is a great example of how we were watching all the kids, and we're not always focused on one kid, but there was a situation where we had two teams, an A team and a B team on the ice at the same time. And we were rotating some kids through both teams, right. Just. Just to see kind of how they fit into these different environments. And I won't say who, obviously, but I saw one of the mothers after the, the game, and I felt like it was a little bit off. And it. I kind of, you know, asked, everything okay? Yeah. And then I got a call from the father later that night. Not in an aggressive way, but just kind of like, well, like, what was going on. Because my son went from this team to that team, and we thought he was relegated down to this other team and he felt this way. And so, you know, explain the situation to them, obviously, of like, look, we were just looking at different kids. I understand your point, but I said to him, what I want you to do is tell your son that he can always come up to me and, and ask, ask the question. Because I would never put a player in a position where I want them to feel that way, but I want him to do it. And I did tell them, too. You can always ask me as well. But I said, I want you to teach him how to come up to me and ask me, what. What are we doing? This doesn't feel right. And I think I could have explained it to him very quickly in a way that he would have understood. But parents, we have to give our kids the confidence to do that. And coaches too. There's two sides to this, right? You know, coaches can be egoic, right. If a young kid or a 17 year old comes up to you and says, can I talk? The answer should almost always be yes, if it's the right time and place. Obviously right now I can do this in the middle of your locker room speech. The term I use a lot of times too, John, is you have to learn how to speak to grownups with younger kids. Right. And I kind of dangle the carrot of if you can learn to do this, you'll get a lot more things if you can learn how to do this. But I wanted to share that story because it's a great example of everything that we're talking about and that parents and John, again, I'd love your thoughts on this too. You play a role in helping your kids. No matter how angry you are or frustrated you are. And having that kid go up to the coach and ask question I, I think 9.9 out of 10 times the coach will be there for your kid to answer that question. I think it's very rare nowadays that coach is going to say, you don't know what you're talking about. Get out of here. You're a horrible teammate. Like, I haven't seen that in years, right? Maybe 20. 

john O'Sullivan [23:22 - 24:26]: Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's, there's still the odd dinosaur out there who does it. And I always say to them, like, really, if your kid was struggling in math and you call the math teacher and they said, get the hell out of my classroom, it's none of your business. That would never be acceptable. Yeah, right. So, yeah, as coaches, we have to do that. And I think like in that specific scenario, right, like, where's the learning? Like, okay, you know, as a coach, perspective, maybe A, I could have communicated it better to the kids and B, you know, communicated better to parents. Because one of the things to understand for coaches is that because sport, youth sport has become so expensive and such big commitments and all this sort of stuff that like, for a lot of parents, this is their friend group, right? They go, they go to tournaments, they stay in hotels. These are their family vacations now, right? So when you move a kid from the A team to the B team, you also separate a parent from their friend group. 

Lee MJ Elias [24:26 - 24:27]: Right? 

john O'Sullivan [24:27 - 25:03]: And so there's going to be pushback because I don't want new friends. I like those friends. I like Those people. So parents will do what's not best for their child's sport development in order to keep their kid in a group where they don't get playing time. They're really struggling physically, whatever, technically, whatever, because they don't want to change friends, you know, So I think that's just important as coaches to remember that whenever you're moving kids up and down, even though you're going, hey, it's just more playing time. This is great. We're just letting your kid play. Parents are going, what's happening? 

Lee MJ Elias [25:03 - 25:03]: Right. 

john O'Sullivan [25:03 - 25:04]: We're losing our place. 

Lee MJ Elias [25:04 - 25:19]: The other thing that I said to that parent, and I should have said this when I was giving the explanation, was I said I could have explained that to him better during the drill. And I wanted them to know that because that was obviously a gap in my vision that day, and I wasn't thinking about it. Right. 

john O'Sullivan [25:19 - 25:20]: Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [25:20 - 25:42]: And, you know, I appreciate when parents come to me and make me see those things because. Because you're right. Like, I missed that I could have communicated that way better that day. So that kid didn't feel that way. But that's. That's part of the process. It's. It's a community. And I want to go back to Christie because we've talked about this before over the years of hockey. It's not just your friends. I mean, these people become your family. 

Christie Casciano [25:42 - 26:04]: They do. Yeah, they do. It's such a tight bond. It's a community, and we all lean on each other. And in times when we're having, you know, success, you know, if we have birthday parties, they show up. In cases where there's heartache or tragedy, your friends, your hockey community shows up. 

john O'Sullivan [26:05 - 26:10]: So, I mean, I trust you to take my kid to a tournament for the weekend. Take care of them. 

Lee MJ Elias [26:10 - 26:11]: Just take them. Just take them. 

john O'Sullivan [26:11 - 26:12]: Right? Take them. 

Mike Bonelli [26:12 - 26:13]: Yeah. 

Christie Casciano [26:13 - 26:42]: And so it's hard to leave your circle, you know, even though it may not be the best situation for your kid as far as where they need to be placed, there's a lot of other dynamics that come into play, too, when you're making that decision. Like, I know that I can rely on, you know, Joe and, you know, and Kelly to take my kid to a tournament. If I hop to another team, is that going to happen? 

john O'Sullivan [26:42 - 26:48]: You know, my practice carpool or whatever it is, there's a lot. A lot of pieces that play into it. 

Christie Casciano [26:49 - 27:02]: A lot of pieces. So it's tough, you know, when you. You're trying to decide, do we jump, do we keep them here? You know, there's all that to consider as well. 

john O'Sullivan [27:02 - 27:04]: Yeah, yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [27:04 - 28:34]: I'll say it takes a village. And I say that to the parents a lot on the teams that I coach of that we have to work together as parents, as coaches, as adults to help raise these kids. You know, I just had a conversation with a coach the other day. He's been about five years into his coaching journey. And I said that, you know, when you get to kind of that 20 year mark, you start to realize a few things. One is that the team you're coaching, you're not just coaching them for this season, for this next game, you're coaching them for a long time, like lifetimes. And I said, one of the things I've learned is I have players I coached 15 years ago now still call me, call me coach. They're having kids and that relationship is still there. Or they'll say to me, hey, you remember this thing you taught me, you know, at the turn of the century? You know, I'm applying that to my life now. So from a macro standpoint and parents, this is the whole parenting journey, right? We're coaching them for more than just this season. John, I did want to come back to gratitude because you mentioned it. There is a whole chapter on gratitude in this book. And one of the things I want to tap on was that gratitude affirmation, because I have one of those. I was actually surprised to see it in the book. I say it every day, sometimes multiple times a day. The ability for it to center me, bring me present, to calm me down is amazing. So I wanted to explore with you the importance of gratitude, but also how parents can start to make their own list. Because I think this is something that if parents do, kids will do. I think it. I think it makes a better human race, much less hockey players. 

john O'Sullivan [28:35 - 29:57]: Yeah, I mean, think about, right, Just the fact that you are in a scenario where your kids can play hockey and they have great coaching and they're surrounded by great teammates and all that. Like, you have so much to be grateful for right there that you have the means to get them there and to the vehicle to get them there and all that. And so teaching your kids, just like I taught my son in that moment, you should say thank you to your coach for doing that. He didn't have to do that. One of the activities that I do with, like the college teams that I work with is we'll sit down before a meeting and I'll be like, all right, you know, send a text to someone who's meaningful in your life. Could Be a parent or coach or whatever and say, I don't say this enough, but dot, dot, dot, and send them that thing. And then, sure, turn your phone off and we'll do our 60, 90 minute session as a team. Right? And then turn your phone back on. And what are the responses you get? Yeah. And some people will share. But inevitably, in every college team, there's a parent who writes back and says, are you drunk? You know, are you okay? Right. And the lesson there is you're not saying this enough. 

Lee MJ Elias [29:58 - 29:58]: Right. 

john O'Sullivan [29:58 - 30:54]: If you're saying thank you to someone and they're thinking that you're on drugs or you're, you know, in trouble, that's a lesson. Right. And so, you know, Jerry wrote that chapter. And Jerry talks about this all the time, but Jerry lives this all the time. And the amount of just the one off text that I'll get from him, just, John so grateful for all our work together and what we get to do and everything. It's like, I mean, and those things inevitably, like, I really needed that today. You know, you get that at these crazy times. So making that a habit and teaching your kids, like once a day, find someone in your life and just say, thanks for being in my life. I just really appreciate what you do. And it often comes back to you tenfold. And then you start looking at not all the what's bad about this, but what's good about this? Like, look at all the things I do have instead of focusing on the one or two things that I wish I had. 

Lee MJ Elias [30:56 - 31:12]: I love that. And I. You know, it's funny is we record these shows on Monday mornings and. And Mike and Christy, I hope I tell you this enough, but I'm so grateful that we get to do this every Monday because, like, what a great way to start the week, you know? And I think I'm okay. Yeah, yeah, I'm great. I really needed that today. 

john O'Sullivan [31:12 - 31:16]: No, what's funny is awful early to be drinking here. 

Lee MJ Elias [31:17 - 32:06]: You don't know what's in this mug. You know, it could be anything in this book. No. And I joked a few years ago about how often I say I appreciate you to people, and one of my teams made a drinking game out of it that anytime Lee says, I appreciate you. I was kind of bashful at first, but I remember thinking, like, actually, that's pretty cool that they equate that with me. But. But the truth is this for everybody listening and John, you alluded to this. It just fills your tank up when someone does that for you. And we don't do it enough. And I always challenge. I've said this on previous episodes. If you go to Starbucks or any of those restaurants, any, anything fast food, go out of your way to thank the person making your drink and making your food and watch what it does for them behind the counter. Because these people get treated like dirt. I mean, it's. I hear stories. They're amazing. Yeah, we don't even do it for them. You know what I mean? 

john O'Sullivan [32:06 - 33:24]: Like, I mean, I just got to tell you guys the story because I obviously fly and travel a lot and I flew back to the east coast and my delayed flights and I ended up in JFK at 1am and I have high status with Avis, so usually there's a car sitting there for me, but there's not. And then I have to go in and wait in line and all the people. And there's one guy working and he's just getting yelled at by everybody and he's just miserable. He's not working any faster because you're yelling at him or whatever. And so I went and I grabbed a Snickers bar out of the vending machine and I got up to the counter finally and I'm like, hey, man, how you doing? Like you're doing okay. I just got this for you. You know, I just, I'm sorry everyone's treating you like a jerk. Like, what else are you supposed to do? You're here by yourself, you should have help or whatever. He's like, thanks, man. You know, you like driving Camaros. Here you go. You know, and next thing you know, I got a sweet rental car. And that's not why I did it. But it's like, you know, it's like I'm just grateful that I'm going to have a car so I can get out of JFK at 1am Perspective. Yeah, exactly. So better things come from gratitude. 

Christie Casciano [33:25 - 33:30]: That's very poignant. Thank you for sharing that. Because we don't do that enough. You're absolutely right. 

john O'Sullivan [33:30 - 33:31]: Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [33:31 - 34:12]: And you'll be amazed at the things that come back to you if you share a little gratitude. I want to move on now. I think one of the other important chapters in this book, you know, I saw, I saw quotes in this book from Eckhart Tolle. A lot of present people referred to in this book and there's a whole chapter on thoughts. I have the question for you of how can a parent help teach their children to have a better inner dialogue, knowing that it starts with them. But I think that this self esteem piece is something that is really missing today. How can we help our kids have a better inner dialogue from a parent standpoint? 

john O'Sullivan [34:13 - 37:12]: Yeah. Well, we have to realize that the most influential coach in anyone's life is the voice inside your head. What is it saying to you? And as a parent, it's the same thing, right? If you're at work saying, I suck, I'm not good enough, I don't deserve to be here. You're not going to be very good at your job. And certainly as an athlete, if you're like, I don't belong out here. I'm not professional, prepared or whatever. So that this book, and I forgot the author's name, but I want to give him, I think it's Mitch Green, I think. And he calls it mind chatter, right? And just like under, you know, being able to understand, there's nothing wrong with having it, right? Like you, the worst thing you can do is like, go away, you know, you know that's not helping you, right? So just accept that it's going to be there. And then you train yourself so that you can shift that dialogue. Now, what shapes the dialogue? Probably the two most influential shapes of the dialogue are your parents and your coach when it comes to sport. So if you're constantly chatting, you know, you're not good enough, you don't belong out there, or whatever, the coach is saying, you suck your techniques, terrible, whatever. Well, what do you think is going to be going through a kid's head in that moment, right? So our, our influence as adults is to help them understand, you know, that's when it's like, man, you've been working really hard on that and you've improved your shot so much, right? Your skating's gotten so much better. I see how you use that time after practice just to get a little bit better, whatever, right? That is also then becomes the, the, the chatter in their head too. So, you know, I do it, right? Like, you know, I get on a podcast, like, I hope I don't, you know, suck here or whatever, and, you know, I, you know, when I go to give a talk, you know, you doubt creeps in. And then, you know, you need to have trained yourself and developed the competence to be like, no, I'm prepared for this moment, I'm ready for this moment. And, and bad stuff is going to happen because that's what happens in sports. It's unpredictable, it's uncertain, and fear is going to arise. But it's okay to be scared, right? The guy, you know, the guy standing over the three foot Putt to win the Masters is scared, but he's developed the tools to not let that take over everything. Right. And so this is it. So as a parent, mind your words, right? What you're saying to your kids, hopefully put them with a coach who's not, not falsely positive. That's bad as well. But you know, they can't be someone demeaning them and berating them all day long and then thinking on Saturday they're going to miraculously do fine and forget all that. No, of course if they make a mistake, they're going to probably, you know, crumble. 

Lee MJ Elias [37:13 - 38:43]: And at a young age, especially the younger half of youth sports, coaches play such an important role in building that I always say, John, to not underestimate the power of telling a kid that you believe in them 100%. A lot of times, you know, as coaches we have to criticize. I mean, it is part of what we have to do to help shape someone to being a better player. But you, you have to tell them that they believe that you believe in them. That's the other half of it is you are, you are. You need to work on this. We're not where we want to be. And I believe that you can get there if you leave that out. All they heard was that they suck. Right. And again, like I don't want to dive into the psychology of a child, but they have not built up a lot of those tools. It's our job, parents first, but coaches as well, to help build that self esteem. I believe someone asked Gary Vaynerchuk not too long ago, like the key to social media and keeping your kids healthy on social media. He said right back. Self esteem. It's that simple. You have to kid build your kids self esteem. And I think in sports we have a massive opportunity. More than kids who aren't in sports. But really, I guess any team environment could be band too. It could be theater. Whatever you do, we have an opportunity to help them learn that they're. Hey, you know, I don't like to say voices in your head, but you have this dialogue and that it's normal. Like you said, it's normal to be afraid. You know what I tell kids when they say, well, I'm scared. Good. That means you care. That means you care about this, right? 

john O'Sullivan [38:43 - 39:27]: Yeah, exactly. And there's actually a lot of research and education around what you said there, that when you give feedback, when you hand back and said, I'm giving you this feedback on your test because I believe that you're capable of doing this work, Right? And that last sentence, because I believe that you have the ability to do this is what yields high profile. If you just give back and like, here's your paper all marked up with whatever. You know, kids don't necessarily improve that much, but when you mark it up and I giving you this feedback because I believe that you can do this work or you can accomplish more, then they tend to go back and do the work and perform at a much higher level. 

Lee MJ Elias [39:27 - 39:30]: I should say this too. Not just limited to kids. 

john O'Sullivan [39:31 - 39:31]: It's true. 

Lee MJ Elias [39:31 - 39:56]: Developing kids, adults need this too, right? Like. Like, it's funny how a lot of the things. And this is a whole nother podcast, but a lot of the things that we do or don't do for our kids end up as adults being issued once. Adults listening to this show. When's the last time someone. Last time someone told you they believe in you? Yeah, but I go back to gratitude. 

john O'Sullivan [39:56 - 40:08]: Piece as a podcast host, when a guest is like, wow, that's a really good question. I. No one's ever asked me that before. I was like, oh, good, thanks. That made me feel good. Like, maybe know what I'm doing. 

Lee MJ Elias [40:08 - 40:10]: We'll try and get one of those out of you before the end of the show. 

john O'Sullivan [40:11 - 40:13]: I'm working. I have a high bar. No. 

Lee MJ Elias [40:15 - 40:15]: Mike. 

john O'Sullivan [40:16 - 40:19]: I said it to Mike already. I told him. That was a really good point. 

Lee MJ Elias [40:19 - 40:21]: Oh, maybe I must have just been thinking about myself. 

john O'Sullivan [40:21 - 40:25]: Look at him smiling. I mean, he's just like. I mean, the guy's going good to go. 

Lee MJ Elias [40:25 - 41:16]: Well, Mike, Mike, I want to throw it to you because, look, Mike is in the Northeast, the New York, Connecticut area. And. And, Mike, that area is certainly not the only area where there's contentious parents and high bars and, you know, lots of funds. I'll just say. But you see a lot of, I would say, the egregious type of parenting in that area. I mean, are there outliers, Mike? Are there parents there that are practicing the things that we're talking about? And I'm asking this, Mike, because I know so many times we have conversations of like, you know, we're trying to do the right thing, and there's still so many people. It feels like that they're. They're on the opposite side of this. So, Mike, I want you to explain maybe if you can, a little bit about how much of that there is in your area, and then maybe we can talk to John, too, about, like, you know, are you the black dot in the white circle? Right. How do you. How do you Grow this and make it infectious. 

Mike Bonelli [41:17 - 42:09]: Yeah, I mean, I mean you've got, you got. You know, I was on Long island just actually last weekend and I think it is, it is, it's the region that we're in here in the, in the Northeast. I think what happens is, and John, I think your book has become kind of a bible for a lot of this, right. For parents and coaches, because there has to be speaking about this. And I really think a lot of it stems from the way our organizations are set up now. That almost puts parents in a situation to not be as sane as we should be. I mean, I think it's just, you know, because now the expectations are getting higher and higher at lower and lower ages and maybe, you know, all the self talk and all. But that, that really stems from the way our organizations are set up. 

Lee MJ Elias [42:09 - 42:09]: Right. 

Mike Bonelli [42:09 - 42:20]: I mean, do you think because of the, the influx of less Rick and more paid for play, this is, this is, this is why this is coming to a head right now? 

john O'Sullivan [42:21 - 45:31]: 100. I mean, that's a great question, Mike. Thank you. There you go. Right. You know, but I, but I think, I think that that's right. So we have this fear of missing out, right. And as sports have become more competitive and more, more, more, younger, younger, younger. You know, as a parent you get really scared. Oh, my kid likes hockey and we just had a great season and he's on this team. Oh, wait a sec. You know, four of his teammates are going to speed skating camp or they're doing this camp, but we were going to go to the coast, but now we can't because we better put our kid in camp so they don't fall. Right? And it just becomes this like self fulfilling prophecy of. And young kids, 8 year old will comply. Right. But you know, if it's not driven by them, if they're not the one intrinsically motivated to like, you can't motivate your kid to love hockey. They gotta love it themselves. You have to create the environment where they fall in love and like cultivate it. Yeah, and cultivate it. And some kids, yeah, they love it and they're around it and other kids are like, no, you know what, I'd rather, you know, play some baseball this spring or something like that. And as a parent, that's where you have to be like, okay, well you know what, you might fall behind, but in the long run maybe you'll catch back up later because at 15 you'll be super excited about hockey and those other kids who have just played hockey 12 months a year are like, they're done. Right. And like, to me, the scariest thing is you see like a 12 year old showing up for practice and they're not excited to be there. Right. Because their whole life is just scheduled and filled and they've lost. To go back to Christie's early question, they've lost control of the experience. Right. It's just their parent, you have to do this, you have to do this, you have to do this. And so, yes, being a Long Islander, it is an epicenter of this. Keeping up with the Joneses. Don't miss out. And it's not just in sports, it's in academics, it's in everything. And there's so. Because of social media, because everything's so public. There's so much, you know, it's so easy to compare yourself to everything else. And so it's just that ability to take a deep breath and be like, if my kid wants this path, I will help them on this path and understanding. Okay, well, what do you want? If my son, you know, or daughter, like, what do you want out of hockey? Well, if you want this, you might have to do this. Right. And these were the conversations that I would have with my kids when they were like, I think I want to play college soccer. I'd be like, okay, great. Well, you see that player over there wants to play college soccer. She three days a week, she's doing extra stuff and you're not. So you either need to do that or you probably shouldn't say, I want to play college soccer. Right. And that's okay. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to do that. But don't, you know, so as the parent, I give them that perspective. Like, if you, if you want this, then you should do this. But if you don't want that, hey, no, no problem. 

Christie Casciano [45:31 - 45:34]: I don't think enough parents have that conversation with their kids. 

john O'Sullivan [45:35 - 45:35]: Yeah. 

Christie Casciano [45:36 - 45:53]: Honest discussion, even letting them know, if you don't want to do this, it's okay. You don't want to go to that clinic or, you know, be at the rink five days a week. That's okay. I don't think enough parents step up and have that conversation with the kids. 

Lee MJ Elias [45:53 - 46:41]: I agree with you, Christy, because I think a lot of parents are. I don't like to always say the term living through their kids, but they don't want it to end because of, you know, full circular. Their friends are there, the other kids are there. They don't want to be looked at as a quitter. And the thing is, is that, at least in my estimation. Well, I care a lot about the other families and I really do, and the kids. I'm not in this just for that. I'm. My kid is primary. And I think we said on episode once before that really, every season you should be having that kind of tap of, hey, we good? You like this? You're enjoying this and, and asking great questions of your kid. Look, I am obsessed with hockey. I have no problem admitting that I love this game so much, but I have gone out of my way and, and knowing that this might hurt me to say to my kids, this is, this is something that I love. 

Christie Casciano [46:41 - 46:42]: Right. 

Lee MJ Elias [46:42 - 47:07]: It may not be something that you love. And I want, I want you to make sure that you do love it if you're going to keep doing it now, thank goodness, it seems to have gone that way that my kids come up to me, I loved it. I love playing. But yeah, my daughter says I love softball. And I, you know what, my brain goes, you know what, let's do more softball then. Because that's what you're telling me that you love. Where I could be like, you're a hockey player. No softball. That's, that's going to get clouded. 

Christie Casciano [47:07 - 47:09]: And sometimes it's tough to have that. 

john O'Sullivan [47:09 - 47:12]: Clear vision, you know, 100, 100. 

Lee MJ Elias [47:12 - 47:57]: As a parent. Yeah. John, I want to bring this up too. You're asking great questions. You know, I say this a lot. Great questions just demand great answers. Throughout the book there are a lot of great questions, right, for, for parents. Right. Of what is my purpose in this youth sports journey. I love that at the end of many chapters or several chapters, you ask basically, what am I doing? Well, what can I improve on in these situations? Not that we have enough time to do this, but do you have some just great questions maybe that parents, almost like a pre test before reading the book, can start to ask themselves or, or ponder because everybody should be getting this book for obvious reasons. But what are the great questions parents should be asking? 

john O'Sullivan [47:58 - 49:48]: Yeah. So all the chapters have these questions then at least sort of, you know, two or three. Right. Reflecting on what you just read. And then like you said, what do I need to start doing that I'm not doing to as we, you know, express more gratitude for what we have? What do I need to stop doing that we are doing in order to do this? So for every chapter, every piece, we go through that. Right. For your, you know, what I need to start doing on the sidelines of my kids games that I'm not doing now in order to give them a better experience. What do I need to stop doing? Right? And like, no kid that I've ever met is like super helpful when my dad yells at the officials. Right. So it's like, you know, so, so you. So it's like, it's just these little, little reflections. And my expectation is that any parent who cares enough to pick this up is going to, in a lot of things go, no, I think I'm doing pretty good here, which is awesome. Which is great. Right. And so that's why they're short chapters and they're little pieces. And you might look in there and go, oh, maybe that's an, that's an area that I don't know about. Or maybe I could, I could be better at. And so it's always about reflecting. And Jerry, who's, you know, oldest kid is 40 and youngest is 30. Right. And mine, who are 17 and 18. And like, you know, I'm still asking these questions and constantly, like, you know, how can I help more in this moment? How can I not right after a game if my son doesn't have a great game and, you know, and if I'm upset about it and he wants to talk about the game, I have to go. You know what? This is probably not a great time to talk about. Let's just wait till the morning. 

Lee MJ Elias [49:48 - 49:48]: Right? 

john O'Sullivan [49:48 - 50:01]: Right. You know, that self awareness that I'm not going to be able to give helpful advice in this moment is huge versus forcing advice down his throat when he doesn't want to talk about it, which is even worse. 

Lee MJ Elias [50:01 - 50:37]: Self awareness is the key point there. And look, I always like to be vulnerable on the show. I struggle with that. And what I mean by struggle is that every time I get in the car and I will pat myself back, I rarely, if ever bring up the game or the practice, but it is hard for me to get in that card and keep my mouth shut. But the self awareness piece of Lee don't do it. Right. Like, and I had to teach myself to do that. And the only reason I'm bringing that up is because, look, it is still a struggle for me. And I'm five or six years in with my own kids now. 

john O'Sullivan [50:37 - 50:37]: But. 

Lee MJ Elias [50:38 - 50:52]: But that's the point, right? This isn't easy. It's. It's like you don't just snap your fingers and become an emotionally aware and supportive parent. This is something you have to work at. And I like to joke that you don't achieve it. You might get to a level with it and. But you gotta keep working on it. 

john O'Sullivan [50:52 - 51:21]: Right. Like it's a way of being. Again, you're not. It's not something you're going to become. You're just. Every day you're making that choice and you're going to screw it up. And I screwed it up more than you, Lee. And just. I've written two books on it, right? And it's like, but, but that, that's also an important moment when you do screw that up is be like, you know what? I'll come back later. Because I know, you know, that my son or daughter is upset and come back later and be like, you know what? I just want to say sorry. 

Lee MJ Elias [51:21 - 51:22]: Yeah. 

john O'Sullivan [51:22 - 51:38]: They didn't come out the right way. Shouldn't have said that. You know how much I love you. And, you know, and you didn't deserve what I just said to you or whatever there, right? So you mess up, tidy up. And that little vulnerability and saying I screwed that up is also an important lesson for your kids. 

Lee MJ Elias [51:38 - 52:50]: And you're teaching them how to do that, right? Yeah. Again, to your point, man, and again, this isn't a story I like to tell, right. But I had a rough morning one time and I really blew up on my kids. This is during a summer camp, horribly. And I dropped them off and I just felt horrible. Like, I just, I was a bad dad this morning. So I. And this is actually a lesson I learned from my father just to. Just to prove your point about passing it down. This is something he had to do with his father. I went back to the camp and I pulled them out of what they were doing. And I looked at me, it was just hard. I said, I. I was a bad dad this morning and I'm sorry. And you know what? They both hugged me. And it's like I'm getting emotional thinking about it because it was hard to do this. Right? It was hard to go back and do that. But I knew it was the right thing to do. And I told him, like, I made a major mistake this morning. You did not deserve to be yelled at like that. And look, the immediate forgiveness was awesome from the little kids, but I'm so glad I did that because, a, I don't want to live with that feeling. Be. You know, the thought did creep through my mind of, what if something happens to me today? And that's the last interaction I ever have with them. And that scared the hell out of me. Right? And we never know. 

john O'Sullivan [52:51 - 52:53]: The heck of a question to ask yourself, you know? 

Lee MJ Elias [52:53 - 53:23]: You know, it crept into my mind and it's just like Look, I also acknowledge, like, it's not. I. I have the ability that I could go do that that day. That's not something everybody can do. But it felt wrong. And I wanted them to see also that I'm. I made a mistake. I want them to see me admitting that. Right. Because let's be honest, parents, we all question, did you do this? Did you do this? Well, if you're not willing to admit anything you did wrong, why would they? Right, Right. So. So, again, wow, Tough. I didn't expect to make me so emotional. 

john O'Sullivan [53:24 - 55:24]: Has. But you know what? As a coach, as a parent, you might not have the ability to drive back to camp, but if your kids have a phone, you can send a quick text. Man, I screwed up this morning. I'm sorry. Right after practices, if I didn't catch a kid at the end that maybe I was a little hard on, I'd send a note just being like, hey, man, wanted you to know that, you know, I read this definition, and I think this is important for people to understand. It was a definition of trust. Right? As a coach, as a parent, we want our athletes, we want our kids to trust us. And it said, trust is the ability to predict how someone's going to behave in every situation. So as a child, I need to be able to predict how my parents are going to react, you know, if I spill my cereal, right? And if one day you laugh and the next day you smash the bowl on the floor, that creates a very uncertain child, right? If I, you know, if I'm fooling around in practice or whatever, and coach is fooling around with me on Monday, and then on Tuesday rips my head off for fooling around. Well, like, I don't know what's okay here and what's not, right? And so that consistent behavior. And so, like, for me in the car after a game, my daughter would always be like, dad, how did I do? She always brought it up. My son has never once brought it up. He's like, dad, where's the food? You know, and then that. That's it, right? And it's like, so. So my. So when my daughter would bring this up, regardless of how, if I thought she had a great game or a poor game, I would always say, well, what went well today? And, well, what needs work? What didn't go as well? And what can you focus on in practice this week? Best game, worst game. There's always something to learn. There's always something that went well. There's always something that needs work. And that consistent response I think didn't ever make her afraid to ask, how did I do? Because, you know, she knew how I would respond in that moment. 

Lee MJ Elias [55:26 - 55:27]: I love that. 

Christie Casciano [55:27 - 55:44]: Yeah, you bring up a good point. If your kids want to talk about it, we always say don't coach on the ride home after a game, but there are times where the kids bring it up and they want to talk about it. And I think that you can have healthy conversations. If they bring it up and they want to talk about it, you know. 

john O'Sullivan [55:44 - 55:52]: As long as you're not too emotional to have a rational conversation, then, then yeah, please do. 

Lee MJ Elias [55:52 - 56:58]: And I want to bring this up real quick. We're getting close on time here, so I'll keep this brief. I've, I've had the opportunity to speak to a lot of older retired professional athletes who almost all grew up in a time when they would get in the car, they're parents or dad would say, you sucked today. You were horrible today. Like, and there was a time in their career they say, well, that really motivated me to try harder. But now that they're retired and they're, they're past their crow, they're pro career, there's not one of them now that says to me, man, that was great. I'm so glad that they pushed me. They, they, they talk about actually the emotional scarring that that caused and that they probably would have pushed just as hard having not heard that. It's the type of person that they are, right? And I'm only bringing that up because I know for a fact there are parents out there like, wow, listen, tough love works and you gotta tell them when they're bad. You got to tell them that they're bad. And I'm just trying to say there is a way to do that that is way more conducive and will not emotionally scar your kids than saying, wow, you sucked today. Walk home. Right? There's no study that shows that that's effective in the way you want it to be, right? 

john O'Sullivan [56:58 - 57:52]: No, and it's a plenty that show that it's not effective. Whatever. I, you know, years ago, you know, There was an NHL player named Patrick O'Sullivan, no relation to me, who wrote a book about this and his like, horrendous relationship with his dad, who would do that and, and abused him and would, would kick him out of the car and make him walk eight miles home at night and freezing cold carrying his hockey bag, you know, whatever. And he eventually got a restraining order against him, but he also retired early because the emotional scars, right? And what was crazy was I reached out to. He had written this book, and I wanted to interview him, and I reached out to his agent or whatever to make this connection, and I finally got through. But when I talked to Patrick, he was like. It was really weird because my agent was like, so his dad's name was John O'Sullivan? 

Lee MJ Elias [57:52 - 57:53]: Oh, my goodness. 

john O'Sullivan [57:53 - 58:28]: He's like. He goes, this guy named John O'Sullivan is reaching out to talk to you about what, you know, the abuse that your dad named John O'Sullivan was doing to you. And he's a real guy. I swear to God, Patrick, like, this is totally legit. This is not your dad. This is someone else talking about the exact opposite way of parenting. That was like a crazy story from years and years ago. It wasn't. That was before I had the podcast, so I just wrote a blog about it. But, yeah, just a terrible, hard, horrible story. Yeah. Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [58:28 - 1:00:07]: I mean, it's. And I think everybody in the hockey world kind of knows that story, which is. Which is something you should really, you know, go back to your blog and read up about it a little bit, because I think it was really eye opening about, you know, how all that kind of occurred and really what the end game was. But I know, I know in your book, and again, I, you know, in full disclosure, I use these Monday morning podcasts as great. A great way for me to kind of reset my week and almost remember. You just remember, you know, my God, you know, like, I do all this kind of research and I'm. I just left the car, you know, 15 hours ago saying this or that or didn't say this or that. I mean, one of the things I would preface, you know, from parents in the car, when they. When your kids do ask, you make sure you're knowledgeable about the answer you're giving them because it goes back to that. Undermining the coach and undermining of the team. And, you know, again, if you could be in platitudes of, you know, just listen to your coach, we trust your coach, and. And maybe this is the type of what you should be doing kind of thing. Just be careful about how much you give advice if you really don't know, you know, anything about what that. What that player is asking. But I think. I think for me, and maybe this can reset me, John, for the rest of the week is. Can you walk us through, like you talked about in your book, the ideal, you know, ideal game day for a parent. Like, that parent wakes up, the alarm clock goes on, you have your 12 year old. You know, what's your, what's your, what's your ideal day look like for, for a sport parent? Let's just call it a competitive kid, you know, a competitive situation. And you know, how, what would your ideal day look like for that parent? 

john O'Sullivan [1:00:07 - 1:02:22]: Well, I'd say first of all, it probably starts the night before, making sure they get a good night's sleep, right? No devices in rooms, things like that. You know, this is like the low hanging fruit that often gets ignored, right? Good, good meal, good whatever. And then, you know, everyone's different before the game. So what does your child want before the game? Some want to listen to music and be quiet. Some, you know, look like they're not focused. But that's how they prepare. You know, not everyone has like the Michael Phelps death stare before a thing. And you know, some people are just kind of happy, go lucky. And that's how they prepare for it, right? And then it's like, don't, you know, to get back to like stripping stuff away, don't put a bunch of stuff in their head about their opponent or whatever. That was the coach's job and the coach has done that. So just like let them be a kid in the car before the game, right? And then, you know, you fed them well. And then afterwards, right, so during the match you're the model behavior. You support your kids, you cheer for your kids. Don't, don't coach or whatever, don't yell at officials. And then afterwards, you know, ask them, give them food, ask them what they want. If they bring up the game and they want to talk about it and you're capable of doing it, then have a conversation and when they want to put it to bed, put it to bed. I think that's it. You know, but what you'll notice, right, if that if you have different kids, they're going to each want something different on game day. And so trying to create the space for all of them. But I, you know, I told the story of the book of like these three girls who would always be awesome in practice and home games, but on away games they had one dad who would like drive them to the games all the time and they'd show up and they'd play terribly and they'd be so timid and scared. And then I finally realized that on the way over he was like giving them the stats, the opponent, you know, they've scored 36 goals and only given up one and they haven't lost in two years. And you guys are going to be Fine. You know, and then you know they're like 12 year old girls and you know, they're thinking they're playing against giants and whatever and it's like all that dad needed to do was shut up and let 12 year old girls be 12 year old girls. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:02:22 - 1:02:34]: Yeah. It reminds me of when I was in high school. Yes. A T is like, hey, listen, just do your best. Your whole life is about this test. Your whole life depends on how you do with this test. But just do the best. 

Christie Casciano [1:02:34 - 1:02:43]: Also John, I think an important part of the sports parent game day and that this is really important. You also have to be able to gauge the temperature in the stands. 

john O'Sullivan [1:02:44 - 1:02:44]: Yeah. 

Christie Casciano [1:02:44 - 1:03:04]: You don't necessarily have to feed into it and contribute when it's gone astray and parents are yelling because I've seen that happen. Parents just get caught up into a few parents start and then everybody chimes in and before you know it, it gets pretty ugly. 

john O'Sullivan [1:03:04 - 1:03:45]: So yeah, I mean when I go to my kids games I usually sit away from everyone else. I just enjoy the game. Don't really say anything. Like in on his high school team. There's one dad who I sit with a lot who's also super quiet and oh, by the way, he happens to be an Olympic gold medalist. And we just like talk about life and about our last bike trip or whatever and things like that. And like, you know that that's what we do. We just like enjoy the game. We just enjoy the game. And we don't think that, you know, our kids performance on the day is a direct reflection of our parenting or anything like that. It's just, just a game. It's just the day. Right. 

Christie Casciano [1:03:45 - 1:03:47]: I don't think enough parents do that. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:03:48 - 1:04:21]: Well and that this is where it takes a village as well. John, just going into my last question here, man, our guest last week actually is a huge fan of yours and he quoted you saying, hey, win the race to the right finish line. I thought it was funny that we had you on the week after, but I told him that he was flattered by that. But in the heat of youth hockey, it's really something we can lose sight of. We often focus on the results of the game and not the results of developing a human being. Can you talk to us about how developing the human more often than not develops the athlete? 

john O'Sullivan [1:04:23 - 1:06:48]: Yeah, I mean there's a great quote. I gotta remember this guy's name. He was a college baseball coach and when he was very famous and you know, someone asked him about why he treated all the people on his Team so well. And he said, you know, one day when I die and I go to the pearly gates, you know, and, and you know, I don't want, you know, God to say, I gave you 600 boys to turn into men and you turn them into baseball players, right? And it's like, and I think that's when we're a coach, that's, that's, you know, what we're doing. Like we are, we are tasked with developing the person first because, you know, the chances of anyone going pro on our team are very close to zero. And maybe being a college athlete is a single digit percentage in a high school athlete. Maybe it's, you know, a little higher. But it's like, but the fact that they all going to grow up and can take what they learn in these moments to become, you know, moms and dads and accountants and lawyers and firefighters and whatever, like that's what we're doing, right? And if we do that, it certainly doesn't hurt their chances if they happen to have the genetics and the drive and the hard work and the luck to be a really high level athlete. But if all I focus on is the athlete and they get two concussions and can't play anymore, well, that was just a waste of time, right? I don't want to waste this time like I want to, you know, but sport is this unbelievable vehicle to develop better human beings. And you know, again, as a parent, sometimes it means your kid's going to struggle and they're going to have hard times and there's going to be tears and that's when they need you the most. Not to cut the legs out from under their coach or whatever, but to be like, well, what did you learn from this today? What did you learn from getting benched? What did you learn from, you know, getting moved down to the B team? What's good about this? That's when they need our adult perspective. And that, sadly, is sometimes the time when parents fly off the handle to fix everything for their kid instead of saying, you know what? This is the moment for growth. If I let growth happen. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:06:49 - 1:07:19]: I love it, John. And unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, we're out of time here. I always love when you come on. I look forward to these episodes every week. But it's very special when you come on because I think you speak directly to the audience, to us. You're an expert in the field, as I said, in the open. You are a thought leader in this space. And you know, when, when you get to the pearly gates. It's not just going to be 600 baseball players. It's going to be lots of people becoming adults and learning. But Mike and Christy, anything before I close this out? 

Christie Casciano [1:07:19 - 1:07:35]: Yeah, I mean, you said it right. And one of my favorite coaches for my daughter always said we're not just raising good hockey players here, we're raising good people. And you got to keep that focus, everybody. That's very important. Don't lose sight of that. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:07:36 - 1:07:37]: Anything from you, Long Island? 

Mike Bonelli [1:07:37 - 1:07:46]: Yeah, Great stuff. And look forward to seeing some more, seeing some more information come out from, from you, John. 

john O'Sullivan [1:07:46 - 1:07:49]: Awesome. Thank you. Thank you all. This was really fun. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:07:49 - 1:08:53]: That was fun for us, too. For those of you listening, the champion sports parent, it's available now. You asked for our recommendation. This has the highest of recommendations from this panel here Today with John O'Sullivan. That's going to do it for this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Again, make sure to check out John, not just the book, but the Changing the Game project. Plenty of resources and information. If you are driven to be a better parent, a better coach, even a better player, this man's resources are something you want on your radar. And if you're listening to this show, we know that you do. So thank you for making the full hour with us. We'll see on the next Our Kids Play Hockey. Everybody take care, skate on and have fun. We hope you enjoyed this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or our website, Our Kids Play Hockey. Also make sure to check out our children's book, When Hockey Stops atwhen hockey stops dot com. It's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much for listening to this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey and we'll see you on the next episode.