The Multi-Sport Model with Kevin Shier of "Top Sports"

Lee MJ Elias [0:08 - 1:12]: Hello hockey friends and families around the world and welcome to another edition of our Kids Play Hockey. I'm Lee Elias with Christie Cash Burns and Mike Benelli. And as you know, our show aims to spark conversations in youth and minor hockey to help the game evolve. Today we're talking with Kevin Shire from Top Sports, an organization revolutionizing youth sports with a multi sport model that delays specialization and supports term athletic development. You're going to want to hear what that means. It's based in Toronto. Top Sports proudly claims to be the home of the multi sport athlete. Getting a little clearer here. What they do is offer a seasonal schedule where athletes can play hockey, soccer and lacrosse all within the same organization. That sounds like a dream to me. Kevin is the co founder and executive director of the program which started in 2017. He's also a former OJHL MVP All Star and assistant captain. Edition to being a former Division 1 NCAA athlete, we should mention for the purposes of the show that Kevin also played high school football, lacrosse and baseball in addition to hockey. That's an awesome resume. Kevin. Welcome to our Kids Play Hockey. 

Kevin Shier [1:12 - 1:15]: Thanks Lee. We're happy to be here and looking forward to a great conversation. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:15 - 1:32]: Yeah, we're going to have one. Man, I want to dive right into this because as I said in the pre show, this is something I actually want our audience to hear. We need to share what you're doing with the world because it is such an innovative approach and a fresh way of thinking. So let's just start with what led you to founding this program and what the reception was at the start. 

Kevin Shier [1:32 - 1:57]: Yeah, no, it's. So we, we patterned this after Westminster Prep School in Connecticut. One of my colleagues and co founders went to Westminster. His dad was the athletic director for like 25, 30 years. Luke Earl is his name. Luke's from Connecticut, moved to Toronto about 10 years ago. He works in finance full time. He had a seven year old kid, started him in the traditional hockey system up here in Toronto which is as you may know, the self proclaimed mecca of minor hockey. Which you know is a bit of. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:57 - 2:00]: A self proclaimed, self inflamed. Yeah. 

Kevin Shier [2:02 - 2:47]: So he started him in hockey up here, his oldest and just found that it was amongst other things, incredibly hyper competitive, toxic, you know, very negative, focused on more of, you know, the egos of coaches and parents as opposed to the development of children. And so Ian. Exactly. He and myself and Ian, our third co founder basically got together and you know, thought what if we could create a different path that led to the same result and it was as simple as that we fell into it. It wasn't this grand business plan or idea that came together over 15 years. It was very much a conversation over a beer and said, hey, wouldn't it be cool if we started this program? That was 2017. We had, I think in July, leading up to the hockey season, we had five kids. Three of them were Luke's kids. So we were, you know, slim pickings startup. 

Lee MJ Elias [2:47 - 2:48]: Yeah, totally. 

Kevin Shier [2:49 - 3:01]: We were slim pickings. So we finished that year with about 25 or 26 hockey players. And then from there we've layered on soccer and lacrosse and we've got a large summer camps program. We run some clinics and stuff. And it's grown exponentially since there. 

Lee MJ Elias [3:01 - 3:38]: So I want to, I want to say again for the audience, just in case I went through that intro too fast. This is one organization for the kids that run three different sports within the organization. So for those of you listening, the United States, they're not jumping from team to team to team to team, sport to sport. They don't have 16 things during the day. They have an annual curriculum. Maybe there's a little bit of overlap, but you play these sports differently with the same organization, similar coaches. I mean, it's brilliant. It's a brilliant idea. It's like one stop shop. I mean, I feel like I'm getting a deal with it, but I wanted to, I wanted to make sure that's clear before we really keep diving into this. And how many kids do you have in there today in the program today? 

Kevin Shier [3:38 - 3:40]: As of today, we're about a thousand. 

Lee MJ Elias [3:40 - 3:40]: Wow. 

Kevin Shier [3:40 - 3:45]: So we see about. It's, it's almost a third or third, a third between the three sports, which is great. 

Lee MJ Elias [3:45 - 3:46]: That's awesome. 

Kevin Shier [3:46 - 4:56]: And you know, we started again. We fell into this. This was not by design. We've evolved a lot along the way. We've learned a ton. You know, youth sports, as you all know, is a very tricky, tricky, you know, organizational kettle of fish. And you know, for us, we're just trying to give a little bit more nuance and perspective to the long term journey. You know, it's not about, you know, winning the race to like, who's the best 8 year old hockey team in Toronto. It's about developing athletes and people over the long term. And I think that's, that's what drove us to start this. Yeah, totally. Well, and it's often it's, it's, you know, that type of perspective is lost. I mean, there's a ton of keeping up with the Joneses or I have to do what you do, because my kid's going to fall behind if I don't. And for us it's just like, let's take a deep breath, let's realize what sports are about in the long term. All roads, end of year league in every sport. So if we can provide our kids with a great experience that builds character and gives them the opportunity to play multiple sports in the same year without having to specialize at like 8 or 9, then I think that's a win for us. And you know, ultimately we're just trying to leave sports a little bit better than we found it and that's, that's the impetus to what we do. 

Christie Casciano [4:56 - 5:12]: How young do you start them and do you play teams that are just similar to you or do you play other organized sports teams and do you divide them up into what age brackets? 

Kevin Shier [5:12 - 6:48]: Great question. So our youngest age is four. Now I will preface that by saying four year olds, it's learn to play. You know, we're talking about building passion for sport. We're talking about the fundamentals and ensuring they have a great positive experience at the beginning so they continue to play. When the kids turn 7 or 8, they can pick either a competitive stream or recreational stream. And the best part about our program is they can move interchangeably between the two as they develop. So we're not, we call it an open roster system. So we're not setting, you know, a seven year old hockey team at seven and never making changes. There's late bloomers, there's kids who maybe don't have the commitment level to play on a competitive team or don't want to, or their parents don't want to. You know, there's a host of reasons why. So at 7 or 8 we go into a competitive and recreational stream and then from there the recreational stream is all in house. So it's sort of like a house league program. For hockey, soccer, lacrosse, we run different leagues internally and then for the competitive side on hockey and soccer we're sanctioned by the national governing bodies here in Canada. So soccer we play in like the Toronto Soccer association. And hockey we play in the gthl, which is a unique alternative because for us we actually only do tournaments for hockey. So it's not a regular season schedule, it's just a tournament based schedule which allows us to control the schedule across all three sports a little bit better. So if we were playing in a league, you know, we would be at the behest of the schedule. With tournaments it's a little bit easier just to control, you know, the variables, if you will. So it's a great question. I mean it escalates or it scales as the kids get older. For sure, the competitive element of it gets a little bit increased every year, year over year. But the starting point is four with us. 

Christie Casciano [6:48 - 7:19]: That's very interesting because I mean, a lot of times you feel like it's one size fits all when you're in a youth organization. And as you pointed out, kids develop at different ages that, you know, some get more advanced, others are back, some want the competition, others don't. And it's hard to find good fits oftentimes where it seems like you really cater to the needs of the kid rather than the kid having to fit your model. 

Kevin Shier [7:20 - 8:06]: Yeah, I think that's a good way to summarize it. It's not perfect, don't get me wrong. I mean one of the biggest challenges here in Toronto is lack of available ice time. And so I wish we could have like a multi tier system from, you know, select to single A to double A to triple A and so on. The reality is we have enough ice to support one or two teams per age group. You know, a small learn to play program. With soccer and lacrosse, just because of the availability of fields, it's much easier to have a larger development pathway. But with hockey, just because of ice, it's tricky. So we try to cater to kind of the middle common denominator. You know, if you think of youth hockey as a pyramid, you know, we're in the middle 50%, you know, we're not at the top 10%, like the kind of triple A crazy, you know, elite, which I hate the word, but it is what it is. 

Lee MJ Elias [8:07 - 8:08]: All Star showcase. 

Kevin Shier [8:08 - 8:27]: Yeah, yeah. Quadruple. Yeah, exactly. And then, you know, the bottom 10% is sort of this, this transactional house league drop in style program which has its time in place. We're kind of in the middle. You know, we're at the upper end of the competitive spectrum without going overboard. But we're also not sort of like a, you know, a one stop house league program. 

Lee MJ Elias [8:27 - 8:41]: We should also say though, Christ and Kevin confirms like it's not the goal to be a. AAA quadruple. A. Right. That's not the goal of this organization. If someone ascends to that, that's, that's an awesome success story. Yeah, well, that, yeah, go ahead. 

Kevin Shier [8:41 - 9:28]: For sure. We've so our whole philosophy on that is we are only as good as what the kids want. So if the kids are at the level where they, you know, they're, they're far surpassing what we can offer. We will actually go and find them a new place to play. We will work with the parent, we'll work with the kid. And, you know, myself and Ian are very involved day to day, and we have, you know, a fair amount of network connections here in the city. So we'll work with the kid that wants to go play AAA and help them find a spot to play. We had a couple instances last year of that with. On the soccer side, same with. With hockey. So we are. We're doing this, hopefully for the right reasons. We're not trying to, you know, control the power of where kids play. We're trying to help kids develop. And then, you know, if it's not with us or with us, that's great because it just means we've done our job and they're developing at the next level. 

Lee MJ Elias [9:28 - 10:01]: Well, Mike and I and Christie talk all the time on this show. Sometime around March or April, everyone starts looking at every other team here. Mike, we've talked a hundred times about the grass is always greener on the other side. Here's a guy saying he'll help you find a better team. Wow, this is amazing to me. But, Mike, I got to get your take on that because. And again, we all deal with it in the United States. The player movement, the jumping. Most of the time a lateral jump. Right. Mike, what? I just need your initial thoughts on this as someone ingrained in hockey. 

Mike Bonelli [10:01 - 10:03]: Well, first, you're selling. You're selling. You're giving. 

Kevin Shier [10:03 - 10:04]: You're giving. You're giving. 

Mike Bonelli [10:04 - 10:06]: A lot of leeway on the. On the March. 

Kevin Shier [10:06 - 10:07]: April looking. 

Mike Bonelli [10:07 - 10:07]: I think it started. 

Lee MJ Elias [10:07 - 10:09]: Yeah, January. 

Mike Bonelli [10:09 - 11:22]: So, you know, people are already looking for programs for next year. I mean, I just saw a 2025 tryout posting over the weekend, so it's nuts. So, Kevin, I think so just. Just tell us really quickly about the. The process here of the fact that what you do is create an atmosphere where kids want to come. They obviously develop very quickly. They're getting a lot more practice time, training time over game time, it sounds like to me. So maybe talk about the element of. Well, two things. The element of fun in there, because it can't all be drills, right? It can't just be. And people want competition because that's every dad's gonna say, well, my kids got to compete. You know, if he's not competing, how can he get better? You got to play the best to be the best. So, obviously, there's a lot of components of fun that you build into your program. And Just watching what you do with your program and talking a couple of people in Toronto like, what that fun doesn't have to be. You're playing tiddlywinks. Like, fun can be competition, obviously. And you're doing that the other side of that out there. 

Lee MJ Elias [11:23 - 11:26]: Real quick, put that on a roll. 

Mike Bonelli [11:26 - 11:54]: So I, I think, I think the other. And the other aspect of that then is because of the way you're developing kids and how quickly they're probably improve and getting better. What you. When does that become like, oh, I'm too good for now. I'm too good for the level I'm at. I've got to get out of here. But the fact is they've gotten that good because of the environment they're in. And, you know, maybe talk a little bit about how you, how you weigh that with your, your customers. 

Kevin Shier [11:54 - 14:50]: That's a good point. Yeah. I mean, fun has to be the center of everything we do. We're talking about children. You know, most of them can't tie their shoes. They sleep with a nightlight on, they get rides to school. Like, these are not mini professional athletes. These are not mini NHL or Olympic players. These are kids. So especially below the age of like 12, I would say, you know, when it's considered grassroots hockey, fun has to be at the center of everything we do. And I think fun gets misused or maybe misunderstood with some people as it is playing tiddlywinks or you're playing octopus the whole time you're on the ice. And that's just not true. There's ways to infuse fun activities into practice that are conducive to learning. If you're trying to teach a one on one or a two on one or body position, why not create a small area game that the kids think is just a game, but they're actually learning time and space or how to close down gaps or how to angle players to the boards. I mean, I think all of it has to come down to what are kids going to enjoy? Because if kids are going to enjoy it, they're going to stick around for longer. If they stick around for longer, they're going to develop. And that's just, you know, that's with our program or with any program. The whole idea with sports is to keep as many kids as possible playing in the best environment possible for as long as possible. And that to us is kind of what we do, what we're trying to do. It's not perfect. Don't get me wrong. We make mistakes and, you know, Talk about tryouts. I mean, that's an imperfect system to begin with. But, Mike, to your point, you know, it has to start with fun. It has to come back to why do kids play sports? The first answer to that question should always be, because they love it. And I think that for us is kind of what drives us to continue. And then as the kids get older and as they get more developed and more competitive, I mean, for me, the conversations we have with parents all the time is, you know, if they're thinking about moving on or if they want to try out for a varsity team or, you know, whatever the case is. Well, why do they want to do that? Are you driving the bus as a parent or is the kid driving the bus? And for us, it has to start with the kid. If the kid wants to do it, we will support them. If the parent is pushing them unnecessarily to a different direction, or maybe they're not ready for that, or it's to serve the ego of somebody that's not the kid, then I think that's where the problems start. And for us, you know, we have placed kids in programs that are not ours. We've placed a number of soccer players in sort of provincial level competitive clubs, which are, you know, higher level than us. We've placed kids in hockey that are. That are now at the AAA level, that are doing great. And, you know, it is in part, I think, to the development we're able to offer. But I think what I'm most proud of is that they want to continue to develop because of the passion they learned or developed through our program. And at some point we'll see a kid play college hockey or maybe professionally, which, you know, is more in spite of us as opposed to because of us. And I think that, you know, we are a cog in the wheel. We are not, you know, the end all, be all. And I think a lot of people have a different perspective on that or some anyway, but that's just the way we look at it. And again, we're trying to do things the right way and provide some perspective in this whole craziness. That's youth sports, right? 

Christie Casciano [14:50 - 15:34]: And it does sound like you're ahead of the game because all the recent, most recent studies show kids are quitting sports at the age of 13. They're out because it's not fun anymore. It feels more like a job than it does a sport. And parents have a lot to do with that. As you said, sometimes egos get in the way, but there's a Lot of pressure from parents for their kids to specialize and be the best. And they're doing clinics year round. How much have parents embraced this new philosophy that you're spreading? Do they see the light? 

Kevin Shier [15:35 - 16:08]: Well, I think it depends on the parent, and that's a bad answer, but I think it very much depends. I mean, some parents are hell bent on AAA or bust or they want to see their kid play at the elite level. And you know what, that's fine. I'm not here to judge anybody. I'm not here to call anybody out. You know, we are offering a specific model to the parent who wants their kids to play multiple sports, who want them to be coached by amazing, positive role models, who want them to learn character skills through sports. And if that's not your thing, there's a hundred other options down the street that you can talk about. Right. 

Lee MJ Elias [16:08 - 16:14]: Like, boggles my mind that that might not be the thing, you know, where I get lost all the time. 

Kevin Shier [16:14 - 16:16]: It's true for sure. 

Lee MJ Elias [16:16 - 16:18]: Oh, it's 100% true. 

Mike Bonelli [16:18 - 16:19]: Hockey ring. 

Kevin Shier [16:19 - 16:21]: You'll see it if you. 

Lee MJ Elias [16:21 - 17:31]: Kevin, what you just said. So I cut you off. I apologize. But like, what you just said spoke directly to me as a parent. Like, good role models. Multi sport. You're going to be active, you're going to do these things. It's like, who in their right mind, they don't listen to the shows. I don't mind saying it. Like, who in the right mind would look at that like, no, Triple A looks. Looks a lot better than this? I mean, to me, this is a conduit to discovering those opportunities. Right. I'm gonna say this again. We haven't. We should. I should have said this at the top of the show. Every study, not some studies, every study shows multiple sports are a must if you want to succeed athletically. There's no data to prove otherwise. That we still, we still go, listen, we're gonna play hockey for 15 months straight and, and all 15 months of the year, and we're gonna make this work. You know, it's like, that's why I wanted to have you on, that's why we all wanted you on, is because, like, you're speaking common sense, which is not common in this world because every show, the hockey world, is crazy. You're not crazy. Right. So I'm sorry, I just, I had to reiterate what you just said. Like, who would not want to hear that as a parent, that. That just spoke to everything it is to be a parent. I apologize. 

Kevin Shier [17:31 - 19:00]: Please continue. No, no, not at all. I mean it to your point, like, it's. I don't think it's with any ill will that parents get down that rabbit hole. And I see it a lot. Like, I don't think it's intentional. I, I do think there's an element of keeping up with the Joneses or absolutely doing what somebody else's. Like competitive nature gets in everyone' I also think there's a lot of misinformation and coaches that are. And programs that are sort of selling this dream of becoming a pro athlete or becoming the next Connor McDavid. And you know, it's just not true at all. And like, you cannot predict success at nine years old. It's impossible. You're throwing a number in. Like, it's just not realistic. But like, how many kids have you guys seen over the years that were unbelievable at 8 years old and the best might hockey player and then by 15, they hate their parents and drop out a sport altogether? It's like, yeah, like, what do we do again? Going back to John's quote, winning the race to the right finish line. The right finish line is not nine, it's 25, 30, 40. Like, do you love playing hockey when you're 45 and gray and you have kids of your own? Like, to me, that's the right finish line. It's not as much as we get in this race of like, you know, my might triple A team is unbelievable and they're ranked on my hockey rankings. And it's like, to me, it's just like, that's not, that's not the point of all of this. And I'm in a unique position where our program can sort of follow that. But there's a lot of people who get sucked into this other, this other system because they have to. There's no other option. 

Lee MJ Elias [19:01 - 19:40]: Your program, in my opinion, everything you said is correct. You can get sucked into this stuff really easy. I think everyone's guilty of that in some way at some time. What I love about your program is it inspires the thinking that I think we're all desiring, right? And the things that you're saying and you're seeing it right, you're seeing it come out of there. They're playing multiple sports. I always love that metaphor of, if you've only ever had chocolate ice cream, how do you know you don't like vanilla and strawberry? Right? It again, seems like common sense. I do want to ask this question. Let's, let's dive into the wheel a little bit here. What Does a day look like, what's a month look like? What's a season look like? You know, over a 12 month curriculum here. 

Kevin Shier [19:40 - 22:31]: Yeah. So all of our sports are, they follow a seasonal set schedule. So to give you a realistic example, hockey runs from like the middle of September to the end of March. Lacrosse and soccer run from early April till the end of September, early October. So there's a little bit of crossover, which is right now, which is our crazy part of the year. But largely they're seasonal. So I think part of the challenge with the whole multi sport thing, which is becoming more common, which is great, is that people think that if you play two sports 12 months a year, it's multi sport. And I think that's a bit of a misleading thing because ultimately you're just playing two sports 12 months a year. It's not a multi sport curriculum. And so our sports are five to seven months at length. In total we have zero summer programming, which is something that's unique. So July and August, there's nothing, no soccer, no lacrosse. It's totally optional. So for families who want, you know, want to go away, they want to travel, the kids are off school, like there's no, there's no pressure to be there. You're not going to lose your spot on the team, you're not going to miss practices. It just, you know, we shut down for July and August. We run summer camps and stuff, which is more on the recreational side. But for the academy, like the competitive teams, there's no summer programming. So A Day in the Life. I'll give you an example. This past weekend we have a U14 hockey team which is playing at a double A hockey level. Pretty good hockey players. They had their first game of contact this weekend, which was interesting to say the least. And Ian, who was one of our co founders, coaches the hockey team, which is great, but a lot of those kids play three sports. So to give you an example, Friday night they have soccer practice from 7 to 8:30. Saturday morning they had a soccer game, two soccer games, one at like 10:00 and one at 2:00. They had a hockey practice on Saturday evening, like 5:00. They had lacrosse on Sunday morning and then a hockey game on Sunday night, which to some people sounds like an insane amount of programming. I can see Christy's reaction, like that's a lot, right? Keep in mind this is only for two or three weeks while it crosses over, so that's as busy as it gets. But if you were in a normal system, those Schedules would never work together. We have purpose built those schedules to not overlap. So we can guarantee that, you know, Christie, if you have a son, which it sounds like you've gone through the system, if you have a kid playing all three sports, I can guarantee you that those don't conflict, which is impossible at any other club because, you know, they don't. They're fighting for the same kid's time. And so we reverse engineer it and say, well, why don't we offer something that loops all three together? So, you know, that's a bit of an extreme example of the busyness of a weekend. But Even for our U8 kids, 7 years old, you know, they had a hockey game last night, half ice, mind you, which is great. And then they had lacrosse at like 1 o'clock on Sunday afternoon, and then on Saturday they had an hour of soccer. And so that's a little bit more, you know, that's the baseline of what we do. But it does scale to the point where, you know, you have five or six events and in a couple of days, which to some is daunting. But to kids that are active and want to be active, I mean, it's. It's like an amazing weekend for them. 

Christie Casciano [22:31 - 23:18]: And you also eliminate the controversy that you face with other coaches. So if your kid plays hockey, they want to play lacrosse. The hockey coach gets mad because the lacrosse coach wants them at this time. And then you're cut. You're conflicted, like, well, who am I gonna piss off? You know, because they're not forgiving coaches if you miss practices and games. And I see their side of it, because they depend on your kid to be there, it changes the lines, it changes the dynamic of the team. If he has kids missing because of another sport. So that was always a struggle for us because my kids did like to play multiple sports and coaches weren't always on the same page or quite understanding of each other. So that eliminates that whole stress, which is great. 

Kevin Shier [23:19 - 23:37]: Yeah. Well, our hockey coaches know exactly what our soccer kids are doing that weekend. We share a master calendar. So I can have an overview of, like, what my U14 hockey team is doing today. If they have soccer, we notify the coach. Hey, six of the kids aren't going to be there tonight. This is why, please excuse them. It's, you know, it just sort of makes sense. 

Lee MJ Elias [23:37 - 23:38]: It does. 

Kevin Shier [23:38 - 24:01]: Like that. But it's not easy. Let me. It's difficult to align all the schedules like that because we're fighting with different facilities and permits and. Sure, you know, it takes, it takes a long time to create that. But, you know, we spend a few days every spring, like hammering those schedules out. But I'm happy with the outcome because it allows kids to play other sports, to your point, without unnecessary pressure to pick one over the other. At nine years old. 

Christie Casciano [24:01 - 24:02]: Exactly. 

Kevin Shier [24:02 - 24:02]: Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [24:03 - 24:05]: I'll say this just this past weekend. 

Mike Bonelli [24:05 - 24:07]: Yeah. So if there's any parents. 

Lee MJ Elias [24:07 - 24:09]: Oh, go ahead, Mike, you're good. 

Mike Bonelli [24:11 - 24:25]: No, no, I'm just saying if there's any parents out there over the age of 40. If there's any parents out there over the age of 40. You're basically describing like what a, a youth recreation department would look like. 

Lee MJ Elias [24:25 - 24:25]: Right. 

Mike Bonelli [24:25 - 24:43]: I mean, back in the day and that. And that I think travel sports has eliminated the opportunity for kids to even, you know, have that choice that, you know, because of the, the financial pieces of each sport. It's just, it's, it's fracturing our youth communities. And you're solving that issue. 

Kevin Shier [24:45 - 25:43]: It's making it more about the community based, you know, recreational, let's go out and play unstructured play for two hours after, after school type of model, but also combining it with the professionalism and the upsides of travel sports, like all of our sports are local. Most of the kids who play in our centers live within 5km or a couple miles of where they practice and play. So it eliminates unnecessary travel. You know, the cost is very similar to. It's actually less than most of the programs that we're sort of quote unquote competing with. And it's all hyper local. So it is more like the model. Like when I grew up where you went outside and played pond hockey for two hours instead of going to a practice. It's similar to that because you don't spend an hour in the car driving for a 50 minute practice to touch the puck three times. It's just, it's different. And now that's exactly what we're trying to do, Mike, is make it more about the kids and not about what we think is best for them. 

Lee MJ Elias [25:45 - 26:17]: Again. Imagine that. I was going to say just this past weekend, I'm thinking about my own kids. Double A team. We had a kid miss for baseball. I saw one kid go from our game, get into his football play to play a football game, come back for another game for us, and then the next day he got dressed for something else. Where do you go? He's got, I got lacrosse today and he has missed games for football, which we're all very understandable of it, but it's crazy. It's just crazy that. And again, Christy, to your point, there's a lot of, well, where should he be right now? Right? 

Christie Casciano [26:17 - 26:17]: Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [26:17 - 26:21]: And it's like, well, where does he want to be right now? That's kind of what I said. 

Christie Casciano [26:21 - 26:24]: They get older and they bring their prom dresses to hockey practice. 

Lee MJ Elias [26:25 - 26:27]: Did that happen to you? Oh, yeah. 

Christie Casciano [26:27 - 26:30]: They could make the game and make the prom at the same time. It happens. 

Lee MJ Elias [26:31 - 26:47]: That's another episode we'll have to do about hockey to the prom. Kev. Just. Just keeping this going here. I do have this question, too. Is there any issues with the transition from sport to sport to sport, or most of the kids kind of flow right into it? 

Kevin Shier [26:50 - 28:24]: I would say it's fairly seamless. I mean, not all of the kids play all three sports. It's. It's a la carte. So you can pick two of the three or one of the three. And again, some kids don't like soccer or lacrosse or hockey for that matter. We have lots of kids in soccer who don't play hockey. We have lots of kids in lacrosse who don't play anything else. So, you know, the full scope of the model really comes in when kids play all three, because you see the benefit of the schedule and all of this stuff that we've talked about, but the seasonality of it, I think makes the change from one to the other a lot easier because there's defined start and end dates. You know, like if we say soccer ends on September 25th, it ends on September 25th. There's no, you know, spring hockey. There's no, you know, January soccer drop ins. Like, we have some recreational programs that run through the winter that are like once a week. Kids can come to if they want to. But the point is it's not required to keep your spot on a team. So there's no pressure to be there. The parents don't feel like they have to attend. I mean, the worst thing is, like, you get to a high level hockey and the coach says, oh, I run a spring team. Why don't you come on my spring team and then maybe you'll make the team in the fall. And it's like all you're promoting this is this idea that you have to play year round to be good or to keep up, which just isn't true. So we've tried to create defined seasonality to it, and I think it's served us well because parents know exactly what their commitment level is for the entire season. They know the schedule before the season starts. They know when it ends. So they can bank around that. They can build their lives around youth sports as opposed to reacting to what you sports throws at them on a weekly basis. Which, I mean, as a parent, that's, that's magical. Right? 

Lee MJ Elias [28:24 - 28:36]: Yeah. I was going to say it's very Disney esque the way you just said that. Yeah. Wait, what do you mean? I could have control over my schedule? Even the thing you said before about, oh, we don't do anything these two months, it's like I can go on vacation. I don't have to plan around a tournament. 

Christie Casciano [28:37 - 28:42]: So Kevin, what have you seen as far as retention? So kids start early. 

Kevin Shier [28:42 - 28:43]: Yeah. 

Christie Casciano [28:43 - 28:46]: What's the average length that they'll stay with your organization? 

Kevin Shier [28:47 - 30:17]: Our retention, I'm quite proud to say is very high. It's like 95 plus depending on the age group. Now there's obviously outlier examples of that. Like at some point we were trying to move towards a girls hockey program. We just. Ice time is very difficult, as I mentioned. But we have girls soccer and lacrosse. We have girl. Sorry, we have girls soccer and lacrosse and boys soccer and lacrosse that are split by gender. With hockey it's co ed. So one of the things we have identified is at some point girls will want to play girls hockey. I know you guys had Kim McCullough on last week who's from Toronto, and I'm very familiar with her work and what she does. And she was right in that girls will at some point want to move to girls hockey. So one of the holes in our organization we've identified is what happens to girls at 10 or 11 or 12 years and older. And unfortunately to date those have been some of the players who have moved on to different programs because of that reason. Something we're trying to address. But I'm very happy to say that our retention rates are quite high. And I think part of that reason is because parents don't feel the unnecessary pressure to do more if they're doing other things as well. And I think that takes some of the grass is greener approach. It takes some, some steam off that kettle because, you know, parents are having, hopefully having a good experience, kids are having a good experience and learning. And so unless the kid is way above their team and needs to move on, which as I mentioned is something that we address and work with them, then usually they'll stay in the program. There's obviously examples of that, of the opposite, but by and large it's, it's a pretty high retention rate. 

Christie Casciano [30:17 - 30:19]: That's very impressive. Congratulations on that. 

Kevin Shier [30:19 - 30:32]: Thank you. It's one of the most proud things, I think, for us at least, is just people want to stay because they like the program, and if they don't, that's totally cool. There's a hundred other programs within, you know, five miles of where we live, but if they like it, then there's a spot for them here. 

Lee MJ Elias [30:33 - 31:12]: You know, one of the cool things from what you're doing is that it's not just about the sport and the idea that we're talking about. It's also kind of about the science of development and what that actually means. So you're in an interesting position that you get to see the development across multiple sports within one organization. I don't think there's many people out there that could claim that. I think there's a lot of people that jump from sport to sport to sport and say, oh, I watch this and I watch that. But I'd love your take on, you know, what's the good, the bad, and the ugly of development from what you've seen over the last seven years. Right. And ongoing. I mean, that. That must give you a unique perspective on development overall. 

Kevin Shier [31:12 - 33:48]: Yeah, yeah, it's a great question. I mean, I think the ugly side of development, especially what we do, is sometimes kids can get overloaded with too many things. You know, you talk about, or I referenced back to the schedule of our U14s this past weekend. That's a lot of sports. Layer on school sports, that they're in grade nine. You know, they're tired, they have other priorities. And I think part of our evolution as an organization is realizing that it's not just about what we want. It has to involve the kids and the parents. So we frequently ask for feedback from the parents. We frequently engage with them on kind of where the program is going and where we want it to go, just to gauge what they want as well, because they're an important. The kids and the parents are an important stakeholder in what we're doing, probably the most important. So our program is nothing if it doesn't serve the needs of the kids. And if it doesn't serve the needs of the kids, then we shouldn't be doing it at all. And so that the ugly side of it is balancing that is trying to figure out, well, what is the right level of development. I mean, in a perfect world, we would interface with the kids, teachers, we would interface with, you know, the people that surround them and, you know, figure out a way to make it all work. But that's just not realistic. And So I think that's probably the worst end of the spectrum, which, to be honest, isn't terrible. The upside of the spectrum is seeing kids develop across multiple sports and reference other sports while they're playing a different sport. Like, you know, hockey practices. I'll say to a kid, you know, remember in lacrosse when you learned how to keep both butts one, you know, your butt and the butt of the stick down while you pick the ball up? Well, why don't you try that when you skate to try to get your butt down so that you get on your edges more. And just seeing that light bulb of, hey, I learned this last week in lacrosse or soccer, you know, translate to a different sport for me is really cool because it creates this cohesion to our program that isn't found elsewhere. You can go from a different one sport to the next to the next. And by and large, the philosophy is the same, the development principles are the same, the curriculum is very similar because they're all territory invasion games. They all have a very similar structure. And so the way that we pattern a program is how do we boil that all down to the lowest common denominator and then talk about it in a way that kids will understand, drawing out crazy phrases like let's do a 2, 1, 2, 4 check and look at the weak side. Lot like that doesn't work with kids. It doesn't matter. And so how we talk to 7 year olds is going to be different how we talk to 14 year olds. But the coolest part of what we do is seeing it all come together and seeing it all gel and the light bulbs going off. I think that that's what gets me going in the morning is just seeing kind of that cross, you know, the cohesion between sports. I think that's probably the coolest thing. 

Lee MJ Elias [33:48 - 35:46]: I love that you bring it up and I'll tell you why. Because I wish I could be even more equipped to give different examples at my practices. And I think some of the traps that coaches fall into sometimes is, you know, we know the game and we do, but it's like, well, no, I just want you to do this thing. And it's so obvious to us as coaches, but the kid, like you said, that light bulb might not be going off. And I think you have to have as a coach at the younger ages, not so much the older ages, but kind of a relentless patience. That's, that's the way I like to describe it with. You might have to describe this 20 different ways, 20 different times before they get it and that's okay. Right? The example that comes to my mind, I'm using my own kid, was that my son's a goalie and he was having a little bit of issues with his glove hand. So we put him in baseball, solve the problem. I mean, he just if pretty quickly actually, like, you know, now that that's not an issue anymore. But it was, it was searching the other sports and explaining different situations of catching a baseball. And there's a lot, when you think about, there's a lot of different ways to catch a ball that, that has improved this hockey game. Now with that said, I'm gonna segue this a little bit too. I am such a hockey mind that to me, baseball in my mind was a conduit to get him better at hockey. And I realized that that's probably not fair to him. And I, I luckily did not say anything like that to him. But I remember thinking, oh, well, catching the ball, that'll help him in hockey. And it was this kind of eye opening moment for me of like, he should be focused on baseball when he's playing baseball, not thinking about how can baseball make him a better hockey player. He kind of did that on his own. But can we talk about that with top sports for a second? About. You just said it. You transition to another sport, it's another opportunity. It's another fun thing. Are you finding the kids are looking forward to lacrosse season at the end of one season, they're looking forward to soccer season. And you know, hockey's that thing you do in the winter. Do you see that mentality coming back, which is really. And, and you know, an old school mentality. Right. When we talk to the athletes that grew up kind of before 1985. 

Kevin Shier [35:46 - 35:47]: Right. 

Lee MJ Elias [35:47 - 36:01]: They played sports before that, you know, in the late 1900s. For all the kids listening, the mentality was like, yeah, we just, we didn't play one sport. We went sport to sport to sport. You look forward to hockey season because it was after the summer. And yeah. Are you finding that returning to some of these kids? 

Kevin Shier [36:02 - 36:15]: Totally. That's. It's funny on the bottom of our website, the only quote we have on our website is from Wayne Gretzky. And he talks about how at the end of hockey season he put the gear away, picked up a lacrosse stick, ran track and field, and that's what made him hungry to come back to hockey. 

Lee MJ Elias [36:15 - 36:15]: Right. 

Kevin Shier [36:15 - 37:17]: And that's exactly what we see. We see kids that if by the end of a seven month season they're tired of one sport, like seven months For a ten year old, three days a week or four days a week is a lot to ask, especially from a focus point of view on one thing. And so at the end of March, the kids get into soccer or lacrosse or perhaps they play baseball at another club or whatever it is. By the time September or October rolls around, they're ready to rock and roll and they are back in hockey mode. I think you have to miss it in order to want to do the highest level. And I think that's a good thing. And by manufacturing that artificially, by the way of our schedule, I think we're creating this idea that you don't have to play year round to get the benefit of a sport. You don't have to play 12 months a year. You can chunk it into seasons and still develop. And I think the passion and the excitement piece that you just touched on, Lee, is super important. And it almost underscores the love for sport. If you don't miss it, you don't love it. And if you don't love it, you're not going to continue playing it. I think that's a big part of it. 

Lee MJ Elias [37:18 - 38:52]: What's funny is just tapping on the human nature of this. It's not limited to sport because when you think about just life, relationships, when you don't see somebody for a while and you start to miss them, it reminds you how important that person is. I remember a friend of mine close to me told her boyfriend once, I need to miss you right now. Like, like, say, like we're together too often and I need a minute. You know, I just need a break to kind of come back into it. And look, you see this sometimes when, when I go on work trips, you know, sometimes, you know, maybe the kids are frustrating me before, not that I ever want to leave them, but you go on a work trip for a week, you're ready to come back to them at the end. You want to see them at the end. It's a nice feeling. So I think there's a larger human aspect of this too. But Kevin, to your point, I mean, we, my family, we do not play hockey in the spring, whether they want to or not. And I've said this on the show before, it is so comforting as a hockey person and a hockey coach and a dad, primarily to hear your kids say, which they have, hey, when do we start hockey again? I want to. I miss playing hockey. If you're playing year round, you're never going to hear that. And I think that you're 100% right for everybody listening that that separation is extremely important. Mentally, physically, emotionally. I mean, there's so many different ways to look at that. And I love that you're providing that like, as. As a. Again, you're trying to normalize that, which again, goes along with every scientific study that's been done in the last several years. Do you have success stories from within the organization? I know it's only been around seven years, but does anything pop in your mind like, yeah, this kid did this and he or she is. 

Kevin Shier [38:52 - 39:03]: There's a few, yeah. I mean, I think the biggest, one of the biggest success metrics that we use is retention. As Christy and I talked about a minute ago, like, the fact that kids want to stay in our program is really important to us. 

Lee MJ Elias [39:03 - 39:04]: Good point. 

Kevin Shier [39:04 - 39:53]: But I think the other piece that is more of like a societal or social metric is are they able to get to the same place as their cohort in school without sacrificing as much to get there? And I'll give an example. We have a kid that plays on our U14 hockey team who goes to a pretty well known private school here in Toronto. And the hockey team at his grade, he being like middle school. So 7 and 8 is 99% triple A GTHL players. Like almost exclusively. He is the one kid who doesn't play triple A hockey, playing on that hockey team. And I think that to me is a sign that there's more than one way to get to the Same point. And TOP's an acronym. It stands for the other path. It's not meant to be TOP as in the best. It's the other path. 

Lee MJ Elias [39:53 - 39:54]: I love that. 

Kevin Shier [39:54 - 40:36]: And we started the other path to provide kids with a different parents and families, provide families with a different way to get to the same place that doesn't require the same input. And I think, you know, I think of this kid in particular, you know, that for me is a huge sort of validation for what we're doing because he spent seven years in our program, he plays all three sports still. He plays them, you know, at the competitive level with us, and he's made this team and he's an unbelievable athlete. And he's one of the kids where I'm like, well, you know, he might end up somewhere again. He's 13, so it's too early to tell. And frankly, it's not like that's what I'm counting on. But he's one where I could see that working out for him long term. 

Christie Casciano [40:37 - 40:51]: Kevin, I'm just curious, is this a more affordable option for parents and are there avenues where you can help parents who might struggle to find a way to pay for all three sports? 

Kevin Shier [40:51 - 41:16]: Yeah, absolutely. So we have what we call an impact fund, which is like a, it's completely self funded, it's not government driven, it's not, you know, any sort of outside money. We also have sponsorship available for our hockey programs for parents and companies who want to help out with fees. The reality, especially with hockey, is that ice time is incredibly expensive. You know, our ice bills per hour are six or seven hundred dollars an hour, which is to me just insane. 

Lee MJ Elias [41:19 - 41:20]: That's Toronto. 

Kevin Shier [41:22 - 41:24]: And we, we have the. 

Mike Bonelli [41:25 - 41:26]: Let's hear. 

Kevin Shier [41:26 - 43:02]: I won't say luck. It's nuts. The other problem or the challenge is because we're competing against clubs who've been around for 70 years, who are community based, they have access to all of the city owned rinks which are much cheaper. So we have to use private ice, which is like three times or two, two and a half times more expensive, which is challenging. So we've tried to find ways to drive the cost down. We often have two teams using the ice at the same time to reduce costs. We have a tournament based schedule which is a little bit more expensive but allows us to control the schedule so that kids can play other sports. We have sort of a hand me down program where kids can hand down jerseys to the next group coming up. So it limits costs on that front. But the reality is sports are very expensive and the only way to limit that is either to give more public access to facilities and lower that cost or to provide financial support to those who need it. And so I think we've done a good job of providing financial options. I think we can always do more. I mean there's, there's ways that we're trying to do that with sponsorship and you know, community events and fundraising and stuff. But the reality is it is expensive and it's something that I think is affecting registration as a whole. It's something that is affecting the quality of our programs because effectively we're self selecting out X percent of the population because they can't afford to do it. And you know, we are, we acknowledge that problem. It's something that I think we need to work more towards doing and getting better at. But it is something that we've definitely addressed internally and something that we continue to address by doing things like sponsorship, fundraising, you know, that kind of stuff. 

Christie Casciano [43:04 - 43:08]: Yeah, that is a struggle. And thanks for your honesty with that. 

Kevin Shier [43:09 - 43:10]: It's only going to get better. 

Christie Casciano [43:11 - 43:21]: Right. And for the parents who want this for their kid, you know, to be squeezed out financially. That's, that's unfortunate. 

Kevin Shier [43:23 - 44:19]: I will say, comparatively, we are still lower than the alternative. Like, our price points are on average, I would say, probably 15 to 20% lower than a comparable program. So it's not as if we're three times the expense. I mean, it's. We are certainly not charging premiums for any of this at all. I would say the biggest challenge is facilities. You know, it's private facilities. The access to those facilities usually comes with, like, a bulk deal. So you have to buy all of the field time or all of the ice time to get access to what you need, which is challenging. So, you know, as a club, we've. We've addressed that as a challenge and something we need to address more. But yeah, to your point, we're constantly trying to find ways to reduce the cost or provide financial assistance to parents who need it because we want kids to play sports. That's just, that's the bottom line. And if we can find a way to do that, that works in our model, then we will do that. 

Christie Casciano [44:19 - 44:48]: For those of us in the US we don't have anything similar or comparable to what you have. What advice would you give to organizations to kind of pull a little bit of your gold nuggets from what you've learned and incorporate them into our programs here? What advice would you share for organizations out there to make it better for kids and parents and less stress and more fun? 

Kevin Shier [44:50 - 46:14]: I think, I mean, the way we look at it, and I can only share what's worked for us because again, we definitely are not, you know, we make mistakes like everyone, and we've made mistakes, and we're not perfect. But I think what we come back to as our underlying sort of strategy is what's best for the kids. And if you use that as your North Star and every decision you make comes back to that, more often than not, you're going to be right. And again, it's not like everyone wants this model. It's not as if, you know, we have a hundred thousand kids lined up to come into the program. You know, I think we do a good job of retention, as I said, and we do have a lot of demand. But I think what clubs and organizations can do to affect change like this is rooted back to the kids. And if it comes back to the kids and what's better for them, their development, the passion, the character building, you know, then more often than not, you're going to be successful in that goal. And I Always come back to that. Every road ends in beer, league, something. And regardless if you're Wayne Gretzky or if you're the kid who played house league hockey, every route ends back to the same place. So how can we make it so that kids are having fun, they're staying in it longer, they're enjoying it, they're developing. And I think that's kind of the golden rule that we talk about internally here is like, let's make it about the kids. And if it doesn't help the kids, then why are we doing it? And if there's not a good enough reason, then maybe we should consider not doing it. 

Christie Casciano [46:14 - 46:18]: Great answer. So simple. Yep. We're missing the mark here. 

Kevin Shier [46:18 - 47:04]: Well, again, it's not perfect. I mean, again, like, things like tryouts are difficult because you have to group. Like, it's very difficult not to group by skill because at some point you do need to keep the top and the bottom of a team close in order to develop as a group. But the problem with tryouts is you're effectively telling a seven or eight year old kid that they're not good enough to receive the coaching in that moment, that maybe they need long term. You know, there's so many kids that develop later that play different sports that maybe can't dedicate the time needed early to become, you know, an early succeeder in that sport. So how do we create a model that's a little bit more balanced? Well, it's, that's challenging and something we, we are trying to address, but the reality is we have to work with what we have. And it's, it's not always the easiest thing in the world. 

Lee MJ Elias [47:05 - 47:26]: I love, I just want to reiterate what you said too, and it was a great question, Christie, about in our, in our environments, both in Canada and the United States, how can you even think about implementing something like this? Because I think the takeaway here, Kevin, is I can't imagine anybody listening to this is going, what a horrible, stupid idea that is. Like, nobody wants to do it. I think we all are. Like, wow, I'd love that. My organization did that. 

Christie Casciano [47:26 - 47:28]: Everyone wants to embrace it, right? 

Lee MJ Elias [47:28 - 49:00]: But the answer of that North Star being what's, what's best for the kids. I truly believe that a majority of organizations in hockey have that sentiment, but I think that it gets diluted by parents that are too intense by competing with other clubs to try and get whatever status you're trying to get. And so I do believe that most directors, most people come with like, yeah, it's about the kids, but it gets lost in translation a lot of times because you're getting torn a lot of different ways. I think that that is a great piece of advice, though. Prioritize that. That has got to come first. And if you explain that to your parents and your kids in the organization and they really fight you on it, which I think that would be hard to believe. Right. I think you question what you're doing or why you're doing what you're doing at that point anyway. Right. Because I can't imagine that a majority of parents wouldn't want what's best with their kids, with the science that is backing this, with the understanding of that, of putting those kids first, both mentally, physically, as athletes. Understanding that you have to stop sometimes. Mike, I am going to throw it to you in a second here because, like, the truth is this, some of this is not realistic within, within our organizations. Right. In the way that we look at things. And the, I'll say the capitalistic nature of it, which I'm not poo pooing on capitalism. I'm just, I'm just saying, like, that that's part of it. Right, Mike? So what, what are your thoughts on this again, Mike, in from a North Star standpoint, are you seeing that across the board and how can we emphasize that or put an exclamation point on that in some of the organizations we work with? 

Mike Bonelli [49:04 - 50:33]: Yeah, I'm not sure. I'm not sure we can put the, the horse back in the barn. I think it's going to take, you know, people like Kevin and top sports and building alternate athletic realities for families to make those choices. Right. I don't think, I don't think the choices are really there right now until somebody builds them. But I think through Kevin's success and with his group, once you build that, that there are more people. I say that every day to all these travel programs. My money is, is worth just as much as the AAA parents money. And I have more of it to spend because I'm not going to Toronto 17 times a year and, you know, spend it in, spend it in my building, you know, And I think, I think as long as parents can understand that your son and daughter are not elite, if they roll their hockey bag into the rink, they are not an elite athlete. Right. So. So if we can, if we can just understand that piece of it and, and get back to the sameness of sports, you know, as Kevin adheres to, you know, in his model is, you know, bring that sanity into sport where, let the market handle kind of where it goes. And I think. But, but people have to take the chance to building these type of programs. So we don't allow these big, huge, you know, massive youth programs and travel programs to take over our youth. 

Lee MJ Elias [50:33 - 51:07]: Yeah, that's a great answer. Mike and Kevin, throwing it back to you too. You know, I, this is my last question, but you set a sturdy foundation. You now have a, a resume of success doing what you do. You're seeing, you're seeing the things happen. So now what is the future look like for what you're trying to do? Is it opening up more top sports organizations across Canada and potentially the United States? Is it just expanding on your own? What is, what is the business? Business North Star, if I, if I can call it that for top sports moving forward. 

Kevin Shier [51:07 - 52:26]: Yeah, it's a great question. Something we, we wrestle with daily. We've. So our main location is midtown Toronto, like central Toronto. We started that in 2017. We're about a thousand athletes now, a thousand kids now across the three sports. We've opened two new locations as of September 1st of this year, so a few weeks old in suburbs of Toronto. So there's one called Richmond Hill which is just north of Toronto, and Oakville which is just west of Toronto. And we're going to be opening a third new location east of Toronto in Whitby. Whitby or Ajax in 2026. The ultimate goal here is actually to create our own infrastructure within the four clubs. So as if, you know, we create our own leagues and tournaments and you know, going back to controlling the schedule and controlling the way that we deliver these programs, it helps if we can control the other organizations as well. And so we've had a good start in the two areas that we've opened, Richmond Hill and Oakville. Here in the gta, the Toronto area, we're going to be opening a fourth one next year. So that's kind of our five year plan. From there, we assume all goes well and it doesn't just drop on our feet. We have goals to open in the US at some point in the next 10 years. And I think the difference being between Canada and the US from where I sit is the US Is a heck of a lot bigger. 

Lee MJ Elias [52:26 - 52:49]: Firstly, yes, the population difference. I just want to bring this up because I always think people don't realize the population difference between Canada and the United States. It is massively larger in the United States, not to mention a majority of the Canadian population is in the area that you're in. So it is. They Are different worlds with that. I apologize. I always like to bring that up. 

Mike Bonelli [52:55 - 54:00]: Yeah, but this is the funny thing, right, that when you look at pop, you know what, growing a sport or growing a, you know, a mission like this that, you know, we, we talked to a group that wanted to build a rank in, down in the Bronx and there's literally, if you put a rink in the Bronx, there's more kids that live in the Bronx, in the whole state of Minnesota, like just in the Bronx, I'm just probably within a couple of, you know, blocks. So if you really want to make the biggest impact, you know, put the, put the, put, you know, make access to people within a place for them to be able to walk into a rink and play. And I think that's really where the NHL comes in. That's where, you know, our governing bodies come in. Hockey, Canada and USA Hockey. And, and you know, creating these vehicles for more kids to get involved for longer periods of time and then let the cards lay out where they are. I mean, we'll find out when they're 18 or 19 years old if we give access. And I think that's what you're doing. And it's awesome that, you know, you're able to provide professional level coaching and passion with an accessible program. 

Kevin Shier [54:02 - 56:30]: Yeah, that's a good way to summarize it, Mike. I mean, I think for us, again, it comes back to the kids. I mean, we've had conversations with the NHL a few years ago about what we're doing and they were very supportive, which was great. I mean, I think for us, we need to prove the concept works first in order to take it elsewhere. Of course, I think we've done a good job over the last couple of years of faking out the full pathway. I mean, even right now, our oldest kids are 15, so they're U16. So when those kids get to 17, 18, like 16, 17, 18, we're going to continue the pathway all the way through and then we'll have a full scale from 4 to 18. I think that's. Once that point hits, which will be 20, 27, we'll have a much better idea as to what the full pathway looks like and then how to transplant that model to other areas. And I think, you know, the US is intriguing because again, the population is massive, a lot bigger than here. But I think this whole multi sport approach might actually resonate more in the US than Canada purely because the population size is massive. There's a lot more offerings, there's a lot more private organizations and Travel, sports, it's common or more common in the us not the multi sport piece, but these independent sort of programs that are coming up. And I think in Canada it's the opposite. It's community based programs that are, you know, have done the same thing for 70 years and are promoting the game insofar as it helps their programs. And I think that's a tricky thing for me to swallow is it's not about the clubs, it's about the kids. It has to be. And if we as or as adults and directors of programs are only focused on growth within our club, that's a problem because then it starts to get into this power hungry game of I had this kid first or I developed this kid to the D1 level or whatever the case is. And I think it has to be the opposite. And it's not perfect. And I'm not criticizing anyone in particular, it's just a reality. But in the US it seems like it's more open to innovation and I think that is exciting for us. It's exciting for me. It's. There's a lot of steps in between that point for us and where we are now. But that's kind of the five to ten year goal horizon for us is growing it, spreading the multi sport message, spreading what we do and why it's important, why it's different. And then if it works, you know that that's the hope, right? You can never know until you try it. But that's, that's the goal. 

Lee MJ Elias [56:31 - 56:34]: Mike. Christy, I'm, I'm jealous. I mean. 

Christie Casciano [56:36 - 57:13]: I wish we had this option when my kids were grown up. I found my son's journal the other day when he was in fourth grade. And he wrote to his teacher who was so upset dear to because they had to do journals back and forth with the teacher at that time. And I found one page where he said, I'm so upset because I want to try out for basketball. But my hockey coach said no because it would conflict. What should I do? And the teacher wrote back to him, maybe you can talk to your hockey coach and you can work it out with him. And he ended up not going out. And I didn't even know that he wanted to do this. 

Lee MJ Elias [57:13 - 57:17]: I should have led the episode with that letter. Geez, that's heartbreaking. 

Kevin Shier [57:18 - 57:20]: Yeah, that's the reality. 

Christie Casciano [57:20 - 57:30]: It breaks my heart that he never even came to me, that he wanted to play basketball and he was so worried that he would let his hockey team down. 

Lee MJ Elias [57:30 - 58:48]: So yeah, Kevin, this is why we love what you're doing. And I want to end the episode by saying this. That I think the most dangerous phrase, and the phrase in the English language, this is a. This is a quote, obviously, is that this is the way it's always been done, and you're challenging that. And I love people that challenge the status quo and say, no, look, there's a better way. And I think that it takes a lot of guts, takes a lot of leadership, takes a lot of money, takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of resources to do those things. But the people that do them truly believe in the reasoning behind what they're doing. There's no way you're doing this without extreme care for these kids. So I just want to, you know, on behalf of all of us, applaud you for that and the fact that you're doing something that is really going to transform sports in the future. I think that even just the study and the science that's going to come out of this is going to push this forward, and it needs to be done. Because I don't like to say things like, wow, we're going in the wrong direction right now, but I don't think we're going in the right direction. And I can say that I think youth sports still provides more good than bad for kids at the end of the day, just from a life lesson standpoint. But you are just exceptional with what you're doing, and I cannot thank you enough for this work. It's fantastic. 

Kevin Shier [58:49 - 1:00:20]: That's nice to hear. I appreciate you saying that. I mean, I think you're right. We have a delusional belief that what we're doing is. It's the right way to do it. And I think if you don't have a delusional belief in what you're doing and believe it till the end of the earth, then I think you're not going to do it to the. To the level that you need to do it. And it's not without challenges, as you mentioned. It's not without adversity and people pulling in the other direction. And, you know, this is the wrong way to do it, whatever the case is. But again, for me, for all of, you know, our team here at top, what we do, it just comes back to the kids. It comes back to what's best for the kids. How can we change and offer something that's different, that may be a better option for some kids? Not for all, but for some. And how can we, you know, create more perspective in youth sports and make it a little bit more Sensible and balanced. And that's sort of the crux of what we do. And again, it's been a crazy hell of a seven years trying to do this and get it off the ground. And, you know, every day is different. Every day is a challenge. One day you're the janitor, the next day the CEO. And it's all good, because at the end of the day, you know, I was at a practice last night, and there's 25 kids on the ice, and every single one of them I coached when they were 6 or 7 years old. And they came off the ice. High five. Hey, coach. Kev. What's going on? Like, that to me is like, that's why we do it. It's just about that. It's not about the NHL or, you know, the Premier League. It just. It's about the kids. And if we can keep that in our focus as we troubleshoot all the problems and challenges. It's not always easy, but it makes it worth it. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:00:21 - 1:01:28]: I think that's a great place to end this, buddy. I mean, you said it all. And again, you are a bright star. Your organization's a bright star that I think we all should follow. If you're delusional, I'm gonna follow you. I'm gonna follow the delusional guy that's gonna do it. For this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey, there's no way you left this one without a good feeling and some ideas for your organization. Remember, you can text us. There's a link accompanying this episode in the show. Notes. Tap it. You're texting right to us. If you have ideas for the show. If you have a question for Kevin, we'll forward it to them. And as always, you can always email us@teamourkitsplayhockey.com but for Kevin Shire, I love that name, by the way. Christie Casciano Burns and Mike Benelli. I'm Leo. We'll see you on the next edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Everybody have a great week and skate on. We hope you enjoyed this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now. If you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or our website, our Kids Play Hockey dot com. Also, make sure to check out our children's book, when hockey stops@whenhockeystops.com. it's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it, but thanks so much for listening to this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. And we'll see you on the next episode.