Mailbag: Youth Hockey Stats, Goalie Blame, and Smarter Coaching Conversations

Hello, hockey friends and families around the world, and welcome back to another edition of Our Kids Play Hockey, one of our favorite types of episodes today. We're doing a little bit of a mailbag episode. You know, what's funny is we've had so many guests on and so many topics coming up that we haven't had a chance to do these in a while, and this is one I've been waiting for because we've got a couple – Uh, great questions here. I'm not gonna lie to you. These are questions we haven't been asked before. Um, and they come from kind of all over the, the, the age range in terms of how you would answer them. So I'm going to dive into them quickly, but before I do that, let me introduce my co-hosts, Christie Casciano-Burns and Mike Bonelli guys. It's great to see you both as always. Yes. Happy new year. Happy new year to you too. All right. We're going to dive right into it. Mike, you're going to love this question. christie, I'm interested in your thoughts on this question too, from a parent standpoint, right? Because Mike and I are definitely going to look at this from a coaching standpoint. Sure. But this question comes from Mike. We don't give last names on the show to protect the innocent. He says, hey, love the podcast. Hoping you might know someone who can find me a stat for a team I'm coaching. In our last game, the team's goalie had a bad game. For the goalie, I was able to use the situation to remind him how important it was to properly prepare for a game beforehand. So it was a great learning experience for him. But... All right, guys. for a goal to happen. I've been trying to track it with the kids this season. I keep coming up with at least three mistakes. It seems to happen before any shot or goal. I would love to have some sort of official stat. There must be analytics out there to help us figure out an average. Thank you very much. It's a great question. Mike, before, christie too, before we go into the stats, Right. I think we just have to acknowledge that it's a game of mistakes. Right. So for any coach out there talking to your team, there is no goal scored. Even if the goalie puts it on his stick and puts it in his own net. where it's just the goalie's fault. That's obviously a very extreme example. But a lot of things have to happen for goals to be scored or scored again. So I think establishing that, Mike, right with your team, right at the start of the season, is it's team game, accountability. We talk about this all the time when the show has to be established. Yeah, I mean, as far as official stats, I mean, it depends on what level of granularity you want. Like, if you're going to go with using RankNet or Huddle or using a service that tracks those stats, that's, you know, those are, like, that's NHL-level stuff, right? That's analytics of... how many unforced turnovers were there on the blue line, neutral zone? How many times was there a, a missed pass or a, you know, an unchecked assignment or like those kinds of things are really like at the youth level. I'm not sure I'm, I'm using that tracking ability or taking that time and effort, but, there is a cause and then a result, right? So, yeah, and I think, you know, the one thing I could say to any youth coach is that ninety nine point nine percent of your goals are not getting scored if the puck is in the other offensive zone. So if you're working on stats, it's really that neutral zone. The danger we talk about at every youth level, ten feet inside the blue line, ten feet outside the blue line. These are where stats can really show you. and your teammates when you're tracking this at any level, where those turnovers result in negative or positive things. And if you can track just that one thing, you have a parent say, okay, we got over the red line. We lost the puck due to nothing else but our own fault. Like that can start now establishing – I'm not gaining the zone, not getting into the, into the offensive area, you know, not protecting the puck, not be able to set up a four check, all those kinds of things that break down in a, in a game that results in the puck going the other way. Those are things you can easily see. Like that's just the visual eye test really. Yeah. And I think it can be helpful. One of my son's coaches, and he was older, probably twelve or thirteen, was really into stats and shared it with the boys. They loved it. They loved absorbing it. They loved kind of seeing what the trends were. and seeing what where they were trending i think it can be helpful um older older kids right not the little ones maybe you can simplify it for the little ones you know i think i think there there could be some merit to that Oh, a hundred percent. Look, I can say this right now. Just looking at the language from the email, you know, I'm gonna say it again before we get into any stats. It's like you have a kind of you have an accountability problem. Right. Because there's there's no plays in this game where everyone's innocent. You know, I mean, it's just you have to establish that first. Now, when it does come to stats, now, this person in his email did say checking. So I'm assuming that it's above fourteen years old. You know, one of the stats that I follow and I teach, even at the younger ages, again, albeit very light, is turnovers, specifically at the blue line. Now, Mike brought this up, and I'm going to say it very poignantly, that if you are turning the puck over at both blue lines a lot, you're losing games. That's just the way it is, right? You can look at almost any level in this game, including the NHL, The teams that are losing a lot are turning the puck over at the blue line a lot. Now, just to quantify this for people, right? The way I talk about it with my teams is we want to reduce those turnovers as much as possible. I, and a lot of coaches may agree with me or disagree with me on this. My goal of blue line turnovers a game is five or less. All right. And that would be to me a lot. Five would be a lot. I see teams doing this fifteen to thirty times a game and there's no mention of All right. And again, just to break it down further, like why the blue line? Well, the blue lines are transitional areas. Right. That's where offsides happens. Right. So typically when you turn the puck over at the offensive blue line. Right. Your players are already moving forward. They're maybe doing rink turns. The transition happens quickly when you do it on your own defensive blue line. Right. I mean, you're in trouble because there's even less travel that has to take place. If they turn it over, they're in the zone. And if your offensive players or defensive players are facing up the ice with that momentum, they have to quickly transition. So the blue lines are transitional levels. I start telling teams this as young as ten you. I don't track it. I won't tell a ten you team, hey, how come we got twenty blue line turnovers? I won't say that. But what I will tell the ten you team is, hey, this is something I want you to be mindful of. What are our options on the blue line? And I want them to say back, skate it out, puck up the boards, pass the puck, you know, just don't turn it over. And that's that's the lesson. Just a quick question. Yeah. Oh, so you don't tell the kids that you're tracking it, but you do track it for your own benefit, right? To help you coach. Yeah, like in TenU, I might not literally have a checkbox of the number, but I get a gauge. Are we doing this a lot or a little? All right. Because at TenU, christie, my goal is not so much to track it. It's OK, if we're doing this a lot, I need to teach these kids the application of how to get better at it. I'm not I'm not so much interested in in the actual number. Now, when I get to the older ages, yeah, I'm tracking it and I want the team to track it. I want them to know, hey, we had twelve turnovers on the blue line tonight because when you're seventeen years old, it's actually something easier to fix. Because they can understand that. So younger ages is, let me teach you the skills needed to not make this happen or to succeed. And at the older ages, it's no, there's a responsibility on you not to do this, right? Mike, you're going to say something too. Oh, go ahead, Mike. And then I have a question to follow up on. I was just going to say, be careful of also using that as a... deterrent of being creative, right? So, so it's hard because you're like, okay, I want to win. So how am I going to win? Well, I'm going to, I want less turnover. So some coaches might say, well, you had to get less turnovers. We'll get the puck deep, but how do you get the puck deep? Just get over the red line and dump it in. Like that's how, like, so safety. So if you want to be safe, Yes, you're going to reduce a lot of turnovers because nobody's going to have the puck in their stick. So if you want it, you know, but so it's a very fine line in development and player, you know, responsibilities when they have to understand that. Well, we are going to be a team of possession. We are going to be a team that's going to carry the puck at these at these transitional. You know, these aren't arbitrary. They're the rules. I mean, the great thing, this isn't bandy, you know, this is your, we're playing on a, there's a blue, there's a blue line and a blue on the boundaries allow us to teach the game in a certain way that other sports don't. don't have. Right. So, I mean, you think about all the discussions about even three on three in the NHL, how they're like, Oh, imagine what you would do if you couldn't regroup into your own zone, go behind your own net and wait for a change, how much that would change three on three. So in five on five hockey, if you're getting a lot of turnovers at the blue lines, then you really have to evaluate like, okay, well, how am I teaching the players? What skill levels do they have? And am I going to, I have to weigh the, Am I going to take am I going to reduce skill development to help my statistics? Well, let me add on. That's a tough balance. That's a tough balance. It's a great question. And I'm glad you brought that up because, like, you just reminded me I left something out. When we when we talk to the younger kids about the options, I also say, well, what's the best option? Because the best option is you skating the puck out on your own or making a really good pass. Just get it out. And parents and coaches, I hear this every – get it out! Get it out! Dump it out! Like – There are absolutely times that that is the correct way. Oh, the whole game. When I listen to half the parents on our team, the whole game is get it out, get it out, get it in, get it in, get it out, get it out, get it in, get it in. I go, what? I said, so somebody knows. Everybody knows the puck has to get in one area or the other in order for success. But what I want my players to do really at every age. I just had a flashback of that happening. Thank you for bringing back those memories. You yell get it out because you know when it's outside the blue line, you're quote unquote safe. But then you got to get it in. But you got to get it in, right? So again, part of the application is what Mike said. I love you brought that up is the creativity of, you know, it's not just about get it out, right? So when I talk to my players of let's get it out, they understand, okay, coach wants me to skate or pass it out, right? Like this also brings up another point that, I always tell my players, there's usually five great plays and five poor plays on every situation. Just make one of the five right ones. Getting the puck out Just throwing it out is not the best option, but it's not a negative option. Right. Turning it over is the negative option. So the younger ages, I try and explain like you have options. Right. You just have to learn to decide. Now, I can tell you this, too. And then we'll go to the older ages again, too, is that, you know, it's so easy as a parent or as a coach to watch the young kids play and go like it's so obvious. The answer is so obvious. Well, it's not to them yet. Right. They haven't played enough games to understand the situation. They might even have their head up. At that age, a lot of kids have blinders on. You have to have a level of patience. That's why I said younger ages is explaining the thought process of the blue lines are important. Here are your options. I also got to say this too because we're talking a lot about it. This is not the only stat. I've got other stats here that we can talk about. To answer the question in the email, there's no one stat that I can give you or Mike can give you that's going to solve all your problems. There may be a stat that will alarm you, that will help you understand something. But I'm going to go back to what I said at the beginning of the episode. I can give you the best stat in the world. If your team is not accountable, it will not matter. You have to explain that to them. You need to be accountable to these stats. Well, a question for you. So going back to the viewer's question, is there some guidance stats out there that he can look at and use in his coaching? For him personally? Yeah. I think it all depends on who's taking the stat, right? So you have to say to somebody, if you're having somebody do stats, like stats don't mean anything unless the person putting and acknowledging and documenting the stat knows what that even is right so if you you have to make sure like okay what is a turnover what is an unforced turnover right what's a what's an aggressive turnover you know what's a turnover that was uh you know contributing contributed by them playing us and what were some turnovers based off of skill like so if i have a player that we have a lot of turnovers when we're passing pucks in my mind as a coach, I'm like, well, I love the fact that they're trying to make the pass. So that's the positive. But the pass was a horrible pass because they don't have the skill and the strength to make that pass. So I might look at a player and say, wow, that was a – I love your thought process about making that pass, but because you weigh a buck three, you don't have the strength. Like that puck didn't get to where you wanted it to go. Your mind knows where it wants to go. So this is now – depending on this coach's skill level of the team, this is where you have to start weighing, well, we have You know, to Lee's point, we have seven turnovers at the blue line. OK, but define what those turnovers were. Was it because your star defenseman keeps trying to beat three people at the blue line? Or is it because your winger came up the boards and just trying to make a pass and they're just not strong enough to make the pass? Mike, I wrote down here the other two stats. I love this. I love talking with you. The other two stats I wrote down here to pay attention to are unforced turnovers and general turnovers. Right. Of the understanding the difference between those. Right. Because your point, like an unforced turnover is you turn it over without any pressure. Like that's it's an interesting stat as a team. But Mike, what I want to dive into what you just said, like, let's just talk about, christie, your point coaching for a second. Like, Mike, you brought up a great point of your mind was in the right place. You wanted to make the pass, but you're not strong enough. Now you can really coach the kid of let's work on that. Let's work on your ability to pass. Now you're creating a skill set that that player can really use. You're going to improve their game. You're going to improve the team game. To me, that's coaching. It's not just saying, well, you turn the puck over. Well, in that example, how much do you pull the kid back? Do you say, don't try that again because you don't have the strength? Or do you say, keep working on it or try something else? Well, the coolest thing about statistics in any sport, right, is it starts to define the players. So when you look down and you say, and then you just do the eye test. Okay, these five players have the most turnovers on the team. Okay, well, these are our riskiest five players. Right. And these are the five players that don't want to make passes. And these are the five players that don't know to make a pass. And these are the five players that like, so they define themselves. And to your, to Chrissy, you said it earlier, like, how do you then manage that? Well, that is then either a, either a, it's a public conversation because everyone sees it. Like when you're older, it sounds like this group is twelve, thirteen, fourteen years old. When you're older and you're sitting in a video room or in a, in a, in a room, feel the other players you don't need to expose that because you see it like every player goes oh that guy took the puck he tried to make a toe drag at the red line and lost it went the other way got scored against nobody needs to define that you're just like that's that's what it is but the definition then becomes was it number twelve and was it number twelve's Twenty seven time he's done that. Right. As opposed to a whole team of players making plays that statistically are saying, oh, as a team, we're not functioning properly. You know, so you could say, well, OK, this player has twenty seven turnovers. The rest of the team has six. So now, you know, by definition, you know where to go search. I'll add on to that, too, Michael. And let's do our normal split of great explanation, by the way. It was. Yeah. Let's look. We'll go below. I explain every weekend. So thank you. We'll go below. We'll go below. We'll go below. We'll go below. We'll go below. We'll go below. We'll go below. We'll go below. We'll go below. We'll go below. We'll go below. We'll go below. We'll go below. We'll go below. We'll go above. We'll go above. We'll go above. We'll go above. We'll go above. We'll go above. We'll go above. We'll go above. We'll go above. We'll go above. We'll go above. We'll go above. We'll go above. We'll go above. We'll go above. We'll go above. We'll go above. We'll go above. We'll go above. We'll go above. We'll go above. We'll go above. We'll go above. We'll go above. We'll go above. We'll go above. We When I see stats like that of, OK, we're not great at passing, we're not great at this. My coaching now is going to, at practice, focus on those abilities and those skill sets. Right. So if I see that we have several players who are not great at passing, we're going to work on passing at practice. Now, with that said, when you get above fourteen, you. All right. Fourteen is kind of a hiatus. It can go either way. All right. In my opinion, as a coach, there is some ownership on the athlete to be working on this away from the rink as well, because at practice, I have to be working on tactics. I have to be working on systems. It's not that I don't want to teach you passing if you're seventeen years old. It's you need to take the time to work on that part of your game, because now I kind of am holding the whole team back. I got to say this again. I will all if a kid has a great question, no matter what age and they want to learn, I always talk to them about it and want to teach them. But if you're seventeen, I'm probably going to tell you, here's what I want you to work on away from practice so you can get good at that because you're almost an adult. There's some accountability here. You've got to work on this. But if you're twelve, I'm not going to teach you that. That's that's my job as a coach. I still want you to work on it away from the rink. OK, but let's just say ten. The expectation is a little different at ten. They're still figuring things out in terms of just do I want to play Fortnite today or not? All right. Some seventeen year olds have that problem, too. But to me, they do. Yeah. At the higher age levels, my coaching is more tactical. There is some skill development. Don't get me wrong, but it's a different monster at that point. Right. So I think that's just really important. But just kind of broadening this out, like turnovers. are a great stat to track how you apply that stat based on the age is very important. And then coach them, coach them. Like, like I can't stand it when it's like, well, Mike, you may, I'm not pointing at you, but like you made that, well, these five kids turn the puck over their liabilities. Well, coach them, coach them up. That's, that's your job, right? Or cut them or cut them. Yeah. Look, it is my biggest belief that it's the kids that are lacking talent that need to be coached the most because they are the ones that are going to put you over the top. If you just wait for your top three players to do it, at some point, a good team is going to come along and shut them down. Right. But I think I think all of us as coaches, like you mentioned it earlier, like some of us think we can reform that kid. Like a lot of us think, oh, that kid's so good, but he just can't understand. He can't make that play. And a lot of us like me, I take that as a challenge. Like I can reform that kid. Right. I like that. And the seven coaches before him said, you can't reform him. It won't work. And then you sit there and go, okay, you're right. I said, you know, or, or take, don't take this kid. Cause we're all like, we look at that deviator kid and we like, wow, that kid could, he could do all this. But can he, can he work within the constraints of the team? And this is where, you know, I think to this, like, so just to put a bow on the question on my side, It really is like I would just do three stats. Like if I have a parent in the stands, I would be unforced turnovers, turnovers being aggressive, like in making plays. Right. And then and then and then turnovers based off of the other team competing against you. Right. Because then now you could say, well, OK, we had ninety percent of our turnovers because we're just not strong enough on the boards because the other teams are coming, taking the buck from us rather than not having not being risky. Well, and I will say this too in kind of conclusion on this question, that these are team stats, right? These are not just stats to use against one player for the whole season, right? They're team stats. The question was about how do I get the team to understand that these goals against are not just on the goalie. That's where these come in. Individual stats are a thing too, all right? But they have to be used in a positive way to improve a player. These are great stats for that. Listen, while we're on stats real quick, I have to say this just because we're talking about stats. For the volunteer parents that are doing stats, first off, God bless you. God bless you. You're in the box with an iPad. You probably learned how to use it today. I'm begging you all as a goalie dad to understand the difference between a shot and a shot on net. Only because, again, as you get older, it's even more important. It's so important for the goaltenders that they get that correct. I'm not saying your save percentage matters when you're twelve. All right. But a shot on net is if there was no goalie in net, it would have gone in the net. A shot is just a shot. Shots on net are what we count for goaltenders. I just think it's important you know that because it's an important stat. Mike, do you agree with that, christie? I do agree with that. If it hits the post, it's not a shot on net. Not a shot on net, yeah. Again, if it had a chance of going in the net, like if it's going in without a goalie, that's a shot on net. That's what you track. Unless you're the goalie parent doing the shots. Unless you're the goalie parent doing the stats and anything that's around the goalie. A pass can be a shot on net if that's the case, right? My son had seventy two shots today. Seventy two. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm just I'm joking. Only shots or anything that might happen. Anything that comes over the blue line is basically a shot on net. Yeah. All right. So listen, closing this episode out and I, we only have a few minutes, but this, this question's a good one for I, we have to read it. It says from Brandon. Hi there. I'm looking for some feedback and guidance. My daughter's five years old. She just started learning to skate. She's obsessed. It's the first sport that she seems excited about a question. When should we get her her own skates and not use rentals? What kind of sticks should we get to start getting her to feel the thing? My wife and I never played hockey, but we watch and go to games all the time. Uh, so knowing how to help her develop is new for us in this sport. Uh, so first off, get her out of rentals immediately. Right away. Right now. All right. Do you have to buy new skates? Uh, you know, here's the thing. If you're going to do learn to play, first off, learn to play hockey is a great option for you because they give you all the gear. Uh, it's usually two to three hundred dollars. That's your best option. If you really want to get her to get it out. If you're just looking for skates, uh, uh new skates at that age are not that expensive but you can also go on sideline swap which is a great site or play it against sports uh get some used skates there's nothing wrong with used skates as long as they're in pretty good condition um get her out of rentals immediately yeah the rentals it's gonna hold her back rentals are not designed for good skating They're designed to just get people out there and have some fun. They're designed for your ten dollar fee to get on the ice. Exactly. Yeah. No, invest in it. I like a good pair of skates. I don't care what age they are, as long as they fit right and the kids are comfortable in them, they can be used. But make sure it's a good quality skate. I didn't buy my kids new skates until they were fourteen years old. Ever. And you don't need them. I would get the best used skate you can buy. And then that's going to be your basis. And I think on a stick, it does not matter. Five-year-old, doesn't matter. I would personally... At five, even, you know, a curve is always nice because it allows the player to have a little bit more success with the puck as far as like their peers. But you don't need to go anything over eighty dollars is you don't need. There is no stick at that age that will make the player better. Right. You have to work on it. In fact, I'll say there's no stick at age fifteen that's going to make your player better. If the player makes the stick, not the other way around, but you do not have to break the bank on these things. Go to your local hockey organizations. They may have some used gear as well. Or be really loud in the stands with the other parents that have older kids. I guarantee they have seven pairs of skates sitting in their basement. Again, the top skate, you don't have to go out and buy the top skate. You've got to buy a quality skate, get out of the rentals, Get something used. Back in the day, I think a lot of parents will say, oh, don't they have to break the skates in? There is no breaking skates in anymore. Just go out and get a really good quality pair of skates. Oh, yeah, we used to put our wet socks on. Yeah, you had to break them in. Now you'll throw on a pair of skates, you bake them for ten minutes, and you're good to go. My last piece of advice on skates is go with what feels the best on your foot. Obviously that's true at every age group. Sometimes you need a little more protection as you get older, but whatever feels good on your kid's foot is what you should go with. Keeping in mind too, at that age, you skates usually will feel pretty good. And then the last warning is your kid's going to grow. Your kid's going to grow fast. Look, look at me talking like an older hockey parent. All right. Your kid will go through two pairs of skates in a season at some point and because they hit a growth spurt. That's another reason why, why you skates, Mike, Mike made a great point below probably the way to go. Also check the blade, go to your pro shop, make sure it's a good blade on that skate and have them sharpen it. Yeah. Yeah. In today's day and age, you can get great reviews. Great, great looks at these skates. And christie makes a great point. If you're not sure if you're a beginner, go to the local pro shop, talk to that person. You're a hundred percent right. christie guys, we're out of time, but I knew that question would be quick. But I always love these mailbag episodes. We have a lot of these emails. We still want to hear from you. Teamatourkidsplayhockey.com, email us. Or a lot of you like to use the link accompanying the episode in the description with your name and where you're from, any questions you have. Not that we're short on ideas for episodes or guests, but we love hearing from you. These are some of our favorite episodes to do. So thank you both for sending these in. Great conversation today. Excellent conversation. You guys are such great coaches. What a great resource. Seriously, I wish you were around when I first started as a hockey mom. Well, again, I'm the beneficiary of this, but I appreciate you both. Great conversation, and again, a wonderful episode of Our Kids Play Hockey here. So, christie, you've got to go do the news. You've got to go do the news now. There's a lot of news happening in Central New York, so we'll get right to it. Apparently, christie Moonlights is a full-time news anchor in Syracuse, New York. How do you have the time? That's her side gig from this. And you can catch us on our Plus channel, WSYR Plus. Catch our kids play hockey. I love that, WSYR Plus. And then Mike and I got to go coach. So we'll see you all later. Make sure you have a wonderful day. Enjoy your hockey. Enjoy your friends. And we'll see you next time on Our Kids Play Hockey. Take care, everybody.