Managing Toxic Parental Personalities

Christie Casciano [0:08 - 1:08]: Hello, hockey friends and family around the world. Thank you so much for joining us. You are listening, watching maybe on YouTube, our kids play hockey. And I'm joined by my fabulous linemates today, Mike Benelli and Lee Elias. Now, wait a minute. Time out. You're saying, why isn't Lee doing the introduction? Because that's the traditional way we introduce our fab dabulous show. But here's the deal. Lee's voice has been straight. You know, he's a hockey coach. You can relate to that. All you coaches. Sometimes that happens. You strain your voice, right? Especially when you're yelling, projecting so much, which is what a good hockey coach does. So it happens from time to time. So he's joining us. You see him there in the corner, right? What is our topic today? I'm gonna pass it to Lee. Cause he's got a great story, and it's gonna resonate with all of you. I guarantee it. Lee Taggurin. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:08 - 1:15]: Thank you, my friend. Fantastic. Let's give a round of applause. Mike, that was a fantastic open. We needed the energy brought today, and I can't bring it. 

Mike Bonelli [1:15 - 1:16]: Yeah, I'm ready to go now. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:18 - 3:35]: That was a fantastic open. So. Yes. And every coach listening to this is nodding of like, oh, I know exactly that voice. Yeah. Good news, coaches. We won the game. That's all you need to know. So my kid had a showcase this past weekend, so four games, lots of games, right? And as I was walking into the rink on Sunday morning, I encountered something that shouldn't shock me anymore, but it still does. I walk in, and there are parents surrounding the glass, and they are. I'm not joking here, and I won't say where they're from. They are cursing at the ref in front of the ten year old kids that I'm coaching. And I'm like, not. They're not holding back. It's not a little bit. It was f. This. You're this. Make the call. The ref is a 16 year old young lady, right? And then as I'm walking, I hear them yelling at their own kids in the same way I heard a parent say to their kid, who is the goalie, we might as well replace you with a rubber tire. It would make more sense. This isn't a game, and I mean, no shame whatsoever. And I'm sure they're beating their chest going, yeah, man, we're doing this right where this is who we are. And I'm walking into the locker room after they're cursing. I said, guys, I got ten year olds here. Like, what are you doing also noticing that they're yelling at ten year olds on the ice, by the way? Cause it's the same showcase. And I'm just, you know, what do we do when we see that? And that's gonna be the topic today. Cause we all encounter it. Now, I will say this, too, to our audience. 80% to 90% hockey interactions with other teams are fine. They're fine. Okay. This is not the macro, but, man, it is jarring. When you walk in and you see this unbelievably inappropriate behavior from a hockey level, from a parenting level, from a decency level, it's jarring. So the topic today is going to be when you see that, when you experience it in the stands, when you're mic. For you and me, this has happened, too. I'll be on the bench in a mic game where we don't keep score. And the other. The team, on the other parents of the other team are just going nuts. It's like, what are we doing here? So I wanna discuss what to do today when you see that type of behavior. 

Christie Casciano [3:35 - 3:39]: Right? Let's talk a little bit more about the behavior. And shame on those parents. 

Lee MJ Elias [3:39 - 3:40]: Shame on you. 

Christie Casciano [3:40 - 5:06]: Horrible. Going back to when my. My kids were ten years old, I saw it. It happened, it was ugly. And then I'm thinking, all right, what do we do as a group to try and lessen that from happening? It's tough to come up with solutions because these parents that are like that, you're not going to change them. They're hard headed. They're stubborn. They think they're right. Everybody else is wrong. It's a really difficult situation to be in. It's tense, it's ugly. It makes you feel embarrassed and ashamed if there are people, if they're parents on your team. And then you're thinking, okay, another round of education is gonna help change their behavior. And it doesn't. And they are still that way. And I think, sadly, it's even gotten worse. So I don't know what the solution is. I do not know how to dress this. Mike, you've got a lot more experience dealing with these kind of parents. I failed. I'm going to tell you right now, I couldn't come up with anything that would make it better for these parents who are like that. They're so. They're etched in stone. Nasty people. They're few, thank goodness. As Lee said, it doesn't happen often, but once in a while, you get them on your team, or you see them on the other team, and you don't know what to do. How do you handle it? It's a great question. 

Mike Bonelli [5:07 - 6:02]: Yeah. I think when you step back, too, and you hear both Lee's weekend and your experience, what happens is it really comes down to education and culture. And I think what happens is, like, even, I even cringe when Lee says, oh, we were at a showcase this weekend with ten year olds. Like, so, like, to me, like, why are we doing showcases at any level, really, in October and November? What the hell is the showcase anyway? I don't even know. I still have not been able to define what the showcase is. I understand what, they understand what the showcase is as a hockey parent, but I don't understand what the reasoning of, like, to me, just schedule four games over the weekend and control your life. Like, to me, that's just to me, like, I'm a simple person. If I got to go to a place, give me four games. Now, again, I know, I know it's all about money and it's all about, you know, rankings and, and I guess, I guess in a lot of ways, it's easy for managers to say, well, just plug the kids into a showcase. I don't have to schedule the other four games. 

Lee MJ Elias [6:02 - 6:03]: Exactly. 

Mike Bonelli [6:03 - 6:04]: I get it. I get it. 

Christie Casciano [6:04 - 6:06]: It's easier. Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [6:06 - 6:24]: I don't know. I personally don't, I don't agree that's easier. We could have another episode on that. I think it's actually harder because of moving kids into hotels, moving kids into, who's going to have dinner, who's going to do the breakfast, who's going to, you know, what time? Do we even know what time our game is on Sunday afternoon? Do I have to get another hotel room? Do I get another flight? 

Lee MJ Elias [6:24 - 6:28]: Is four games in two days an effective way of looking at teams? 

Mike Bonelli [6:29 - 8:15]: It's an ineffective way of looking at teams. It's an effective way of looking at development as an ineffective way of looking at culture. So now let's go back to Christie's question. Right. So education and culture, and I think more so than not, it, it is, stemmed from the head. You very rarely see a mild mannered, low key coach with out of control parents or like you. So, so when you see a coach that is over the top. Yeah, we'll talk a little bit about the officials and abusive officials and why, if we want good officials, we probably shouldn't bash the officials we have. But, so the person who bashes the officials, the players bash the officials, the players bash the players, the parents and protect their kids. The parents protecting their kids. Protect their kids. And now we have this breakdown society at a. For children. So me, it's culture and education, and I think culture comes first because then education can be part of the culture. Like, so I think if your culture is built that this isn't. These are unacceptable behaviors. And guess who's going to model those behaviors? It's going to be our head coaches first. Now, it's much easier that it rolls down the line to the player, to the parent, to the grandparent, to the uncle that shows up on a weekend that says, oh, I can't believe that kid got hit in the head. And then he's starting to fight with, listen, I had a great story. Real. That kind of rivals Lee's. So I was at a game where a parent was fighting another parent. Like, yeah. Mental, physically, verbally abusing. 

Christie Casciano [8:15 - 8:16]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [8:16 - 8:18]: They found out there are parents of the kids on the same team. 

Christie Casciano [8:18 - 8:19]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [8:20 - 8:44]: Like, oh, crap. I know. I can't believe, you know, like, turns into, like, you're fighting. You're both yelling and screaming about a play and you're both on the same team. You don't even know that. Like. Like, that's. There's so. There's so many things wrong with it. Yeah. Let's go back to buyer beware. When you select your program. 

Lee MJ Elias [8:45 - 8:45]: Sure. 

Mike Bonelli [8:46 - 9:05]: When you get. When you. When you. When you. When you are a head coach and an organizer, build a culture that allows you to fight those things. But if you're helping staff and your organizers don't model those behaviors, then to your point, Christy, you are just swimming upstream, right. 

Christie Casciano [9:05 - 9:41]: Yeah. And I. And that really is important for the head coach to make it clear to everybody on that team, parents included, kids. Parents. If this kind of behavior, if you've got an attitude problem, leave it at the door and it comes into the ring, you're gone, you're out. I wish they'd be stricter with this. And I would love to see even volunteers. I know it's hard to find volunteers in the rink, just in the stands. When they start hearing stuff bubble up, parents yell at the refs. What those parents did to that ref, that's just awful. 

Mike Bonelli [9:42 - 9:42]: Yeah. 

Christie Casciano [9:42 - 9:50]: Somebody should come up to them and say, you know what? We don't tolerate that here. Bye. You're out of here. Go. 

Mike Bonelli [9:50 - 10:40]: Right. But the person saying, you know, the person saying, we don't tolerate that here can't be the person that was just kicked out of the game. So, like, I think that's. I think, you know, so, you know, you gotta. And again, this is a story as old as youth sports. Right. When I was a hockey director, my first year as a hockey director, 1993, I think it was. We used to hand out playing card size, you know, index cards, laminated, and let that, at that time, you had a laminate him with a hairdryer, laminated cards with just three keywords on it. And all you had to do as a parent of a crazy parent was hand the cardinal. And it. And they just had, and they had to read like, I'm a youth hockey parent. This is a youth hockey game. Stay calm. 

Lee MJ Elias [10:40 - 10:40]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [10:40 - 10:41]: And that's all. 

Christie Casciano [10:41 - 10:41]: That's great. 

Mike Bonelli [10:41 - 10:52]: And it did, I think you didn't say, and we used to use this as, like, you didn't have to yell at the parent. You have to confront the parent. You could be like, hey, Lee, you've been carted. 

Lee MJ Elias [10:52 - 10:53]: You've been carted. 

Mike Bonelli [10:56 - 11:28]: Cards should be red. You're right. But take a deep breath. Walk outside, diffuse the situation. The craziest thing I find, these are the, when you're in a hockey world, for the most part, these are high functioning, high intelligent people. Like, these are people. If you could afford to play hockey and you could afford to have your own business, work for a hedge fund, be a top business professional, you have to have some sense of. Of control. 

Lee MJ Elias [11:29 - 11:29]: Right. 

Christie Casciano [11:30 - 11:30]: You would think. 

Mike Bonelli [11:31 - 11:54]: And when you get into these events, and again, it's not hockey. It's not bashing hockey. Seeing lacrosse, I see in soccer, that's why they have silent Sundays, right. In soccer now. Right? Because, yeah, they force the, forcing parents to model a different behavior. But it all starts, I think, with the head of your organization and the culture that you establish an organization. If you're listening to this now, and it's December, good luck. You're done. 

Lee MJ Elias [11:56 - 14:58]: Well, I will add. I will add in here a few things that the parents of this team have a reputation. So, like, and again, I don't want to give anything away. Anybody in my area will probably know who I'm talking about. But there's a reputation at this rank for this type of parenting, for this type of outrageous behavior. Even the hockey development, which isn't half bad, is sometimes there's physicality at the younger ages that shouldn't be there, and we kind of all know they're being told to do it. So it is a culture. It's a culture issue with this rink. And I'll tell you this, too, Christy, to your point, the rink manager came in, I'm told, and said to these parents, I will shut the lights off and end the game. Yeah. And I don't. I don't know how much of an effect it had because, you know, the game ended. They got killed. But it was like. So I wanted to say this, too, because, Christy, you did ask a question before about, like, how do we. How do we change this? And I think there's a really important element here we have to talk about. So these parents are going crazy. I'm watching them. I'm watching their kids on the ice looking at them, and I'm just like. I'm just thinking about these kids that I feel so bad for these kids because not only are they experiencing all the emotions as a kid, but they're going to turn out to be like that in the future because they're being taught that. So I walk into my locker room, and the first thing I hear, and this. This is, I think, a big part of this, this episode, first thing I hear is one of my players repeat the curse words verbatim that this woman had said outside the locker room. And it's like I kind of put my hand on my head, and I'm thinking, like, you know, you can't say that. So I kind of joked with this kid. I said, hey, man, I'm standing right here, right? And then I looked in the room, and I could see they were kind of snickering, and this was affecting them. Not in a bad way. They thought it was funny. But I said, you know, I sat them down for a minute just quickly, and this is the key. We got to focus on the kids. And I said, you know, hey, guys, look, that person is wrong out there for the way that she's treating the ref and those kids. It's disrespectful. And I said just like this to their own kids, to the ref and to the game of hockey. And I said, we will respect the game of hockey in this locker room. So I said, I know it's funny to you at this point. You don't hear people doing that, but I said, do you see how ridiculous she looks right now? You don't want to grow up to be that way. And it's just like, I'm just trying to plant the seed to them, right? I don't. I'm not their parent. I'm not trying to be in that moment. I'm just trying to explain to them, we don't behave that way for a reason. You will respect the game. You will respect the ref. The ref is always. There's. I've never had a ref make a call against my team, where I agreed with the call jokingly, right. So I think that the answer is, you know, as adults, we love to commiserate. And, yeah, I went right out to the parents on our team. I was like, are you watching this? Are you seeing this? But then my mind turned of, like, this is a teaching moment for the kids. We got to do it. And again, for the parents of the kids on that team, your kids, if you keep this up, they are all burning out by six team. All of them. Yeah. 

Christie Casciano [14:58 - 15:01]: A lot of them are quitting at age 13, as we've seen this study show. 

Lee MJ Elias [15:01 - 16:01]: They're gonna totally justify it, like, well, this is what it was like when I was a kid. Well, you weren't doing showcases when you were a kid. You weren't playing year round when you're a kid, all right? And not to mention, and I think this is my biggest point, you're gonna create a terrible human being. You know why? Because you are a terrible human being the way you're doing this. And it's like, that's not what hockey's for. So I would love to have a conducive conversation with those parents and try and educate them. Mike, as we're talking about, it's not going to happen. They're not going to change. And again, it's not my job to change them. It's my job to influence the kids that I coach. So I think, Christy, that's kind of my answer, is, if you see that your kids are seeing it, too, you should have that quick, three minute discussion of why that's not acceptable and how to be respectful in all walks of life. And you can be respectful and still be a hell of a competitor out there. Cursing and yelling at refs on your team does not make you compete harder. I have no data to support that. 

Christie Casciano [16:02 - 16:56]: Yeah. And I do. And I do think the coach, the head coach needs, and if it gets to the head coach, he or she needs to say, make it clear. You know, we heard what you did. You know, that you. You represent not just you and your kid, but our team. Now you're going to help us get a bad reputation. So now next showcase. Oh, they're going to get wind of that. Oh, they were the parents that were, you know, nasty to the refs and belittling them. We don't. We don't really want you here. Okay. That reputation will follow you. And so, really, I think having a coach that comes down hard on these parents, you know, a whole team getting on these parents, saying, look it. This is not us. We say you're out of here and you're done. 

Mike Bonelli [16:56 - 17:23]: I don't think it's as easy, too, as it might not be. I don't think it's as easy as saying this could happen overnight. Like, it's, like, it really does. It's in the fabric of your organization. So, like, you can't just say on November 2, hey, today we're changing. Like, it's just hard to do that now. It's. But it's, but it's also harder. I, listen, I, it's not even anecdotal. I mean, just go look around the ranks. Every weekend an out of control team has an out of control coach. 

Lee MJ Elias [17:23 - 17:24]: Yep. 

Mike Bonelli [17:24 - 18:06]: And has out of control pairs. There's no, and now what the extremes are of that out of controlness. Maybe it's the eye rolls every time there's a penalty, every time the ref calls on offsides, every time the goalie gets snowed. Every time. Like every single time. I mean, there's a, look at the, look at the culture in football, right? There's a reason why in football there isn't a line brawl on every tackle, right. Because it's part of the game. It's like, okay, that's part of what we do. We tackle you. If I take my fingers and I stick them into your eyeball, you know, then maybe there's going to be another level, right? But imagine in football, if every time a kid got hit, it turned into a brawl. 

Christie Casciano [18:06 - 18:07]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [18:07 - 18:53]: Be no game. And I'm watching games now where every time there's a play, maybe it's illegal. It could be illegal, but that's why we, that's why we play the game, right? It's like you, you have, you're playing the game and it's, there's going to be things that happen now if you don't learn how to manage that. And as a parent in the first period, if a ref makes a bad offsides call the first period three minutes in and that rep hears 17 parents from your team screaming about the call. It's human nature. What are you going to do? We've had professional referees on this show. And what is Kerry Frazier? What does he say? 

Lee MJ Elias [18:54 - 18:56]: You can't beat the refs on the other team. 

Mike Bonelli [18:57 - 19:36]: Of course I hear that. Of course that's going to affect me. Of course, as, no matter what level of professionalism you have, you're going to be like, I just don't give the benefit of the doubt anymore. It just does. It's very hard to do that not that you want to get them back, but you're not going to get the gray. You're not going to get the like, oh, that could have been a penalty. Maybe not. And then what happens is it is it spirals into chaos. Because now both teams, because at some point, the other team has to be like, at some point your parents are now feeling like, oh, my God, this can't just be going one way, right? 

Christie Casciano [19:36 - 19:43]: And, hey, wake up, parents. All that nastiness that you're throwing at these refs, they're quitting. They're leaving. 

Lee MJ Elias [19:43 - 19:44]: They are quitting. 

Christie Casciano [19:44 - 20:04]: They're tired of you. And guess what? Now we've got a ref shortage. And what happens when there's a rough shortage? Guess what? Your kids aren't going to play when you're on the schedule. Everything gets messed up. You're not going to play as many games. You're not going to be able to travel as much. Your kids aren't going to get the ice time that they want. Why is that? It goes back to your nasty behavior. 

Lee MJ Elias [20:04 - 20:05]: Yeah. And I'll add on to it. 

Christie Casciano [20:05 - 20:20]: Think about the consequences of what you're doing. Oh, so I'm yelling at this one ref? No, it resonates. And take it. Take a step back and look at the bigger picture of what your behavior is doing to these volunteer refs. 

Lee MJ Elias [20:20 - 24:34]: And I'll add on to this. Christie, you're ruining the game we had. Of the eight referees we had this weekend, again, we're talking ten UAA. Two of them were over 20, okay? Two of them. And this young lady that these parents were yelling at, and I was jarred by this. I just haven't seen it this bad in a while. I don't know why I'm surprised. Like I said, this is kind of part of the culture of that organization. But obviously, that young lady was repping multiple games. So she had her a game right after. And I went right up to her, not for any type of advantage or anything like that. And I just said, what I just saw done to you was completely unacceptable. And I just want you to know that I appreciate that you're here. And I said to her, if I have a problem with any of your calls today, which I may, I said, I'll just call you over and have a discussion of what I see. Because, as well, I don't want to call myself an older coach, but as someone at my age, I also play a responsibility in assisting these young reps at getting better at their job. And I'm not going to do that by screaming at them, I do need to tell them, this is what I saw. This is why I think the call is incorrect. And, Mike, to your point, they hear that, too. They understand where I'm coming from. Like last night, here's another one talking about crappy parents. We had a power play, and power plays are a minute 30. And we look at the scoreboard at a stoppage, and the power play time is running, but the clock is not, so that the play is stopped. For those of you who don't know, that is a choice that you have to make that that cannot just randomly happen, that the penalty clock keeps running. Okay? So, like 30 seconds, 40 seconds pop off the clock, and we tell the ref, and you know, the refs young, so what are they gonna do, right? So he tells the guy to hold the clock up. The whole guy holds it for 3 seconds. But it's like, what? What was that? Right? So after the game, because we were very vocal about it, I wouldn't say we were yelling at the refs. We were just yelling to make them aware of the situation. But. And this, this is, again, to help. I pulled both the refs after the game. We ended up winning the game, but I pulled them across. I said, I want you guys to know we weren't yelling at you. We just saw something, and they were young. I said, sometimes parents will try and pull things like that, all right? And you've got to be aware that that can happen in a game. And they actually shook my head and thanked us. They said, well, we didn't know what to do in that moment. And I said, it's absolutely fine. Again, it's a rarity. Right, Mike? It doesn't happen all the time. But I said that this parents were trying to get taken advantage of you, not just us. Right? They're hoping you're not watching that. So I think, as coaches, how you interact with a referee, I encourage all of my players to shake their hand after the game, no matter what they think, whether they think that it happened on purpose or I something else, I want them to know that you have to respect these people. The other thing is this. And, Mike, I love your take on this. You know, you have to look at the referee, and you have to potentially move your standard of what you think the officiating should be based on their experience level. When I see a 16 year old and an 18 year old reffing the game, I don't expect every call to be perfect. In fact, I expect a lot of calls to be missed. And then how I vocalize that to my team is usually something, hey, look, they're letting you play, or. Or I'll get a little say, look, this is hockey, Mike, to your point about getting tackled, you got to keep going. The refs are not going to win or lose the game. We're in control. They may affect the game, but it's. It's on us to play the game. And so, like, same thing in adult league, right? Like, I have a very low bar for adult league officiating, and it's like, you know, sometimes my teammates will get slashed. I'm like, you got a pad there, right? Like, let's keep going. Right? You know, but not to mention, most. Most ten year power plays and penalty kills are worse than five on five anyway. But we play a role in assisting these referees to get better at their work, and we play a role in appreciating them and letting them know that. Last thing I'll say, I have yet to meet a kid referee that was a horrible person. I haven't met one that was just, like, a complete egomaniac loser that shouldn't be out there. They all want to be out there. In fact, Christy, one of them was like, yeah, one of the kids. Like, I play triple a. I know you are. Like, I love your. So excited to, like, meet me. And I was, you know, so we play that role. 

Mike Bonelli [24:36 - 25:38]: It's. It's amazing to me, actually. So you think about it. Like, the level of ref you're getting is the level you're coaching, right? Like, so. So if, you know. And I said, you know, I used to. When I used to, you know, ref, as a hockey director and a young person, you have to do a lot of things, right? So, a lot of times I'd have to ref on the weekends. You can't find refs. I'm like, okay, well, I guess I. I can ref. How hard can it be? Reffing is easy in my eyes, right? Communicate, banter, talk. But understand, you are not in an arena with 18,000 people. You're an arena with grandma and a kid on an iPad. Like, so. You're not. You're only. You're there for these children. And whether you like it or not, you are responsible for the growth and development of everybody on the ice, which includes the officials. If you want great officials when your kids are 18, then don't drive them out of the game at 13. 

Lee MJ Elias [25:38 - 25:39]: That's a great question. 

Mike Bonelli [25:41 - 26:37]: You want good officials, then stop about the officials, because, you know, who's left to you Lee, you make a great point. You know who's left at the end of the funnel in youth hockey? It's the bitter guy who's just like, ah. Like, I just want my $75. Yeah, right. Probably repping six games on a Saturday morning. I've got it. I have my gloves on because I'm freezing my butt off, and I have to listen to a bunch of ten year olds like, yeah, like, go at me. And what do you think you're going to get from that? Like, what is the end result? What is your end result? By. By yelling and screaming at a referee? Who's there for you? Your kid? I, my son plays high school lacrosse. A year ago, I can't tell you how many games had to get canceled or postponed because they didn't have enough officials. 

Christie Casciano [26:37 - 26:39]: Exactly. Same thing in our school. 

Mike Bonelli [26:39 - 26:46]: This is. Then you see the same officials. Yeah, right. High school officials don't listen to this podcast. 

Christie Casciano [26:46 - 26:58]: Right? And we actually did a news story on this because there was such a shortage of referees, it became news. Why are they. Do you know what the refs told us who quit because they couldn't take the parents anymore? 

Mike Bonelli [26:58 - 27:05]: It's not worth it. It's not worth the aggravation. Like, it's not worth, right? Yeah. 

Christie Casciano [27:05 - 27:09]: I would love to do this for the kids. I'm tired of the abuse. 

Mike Bonelli [27:09 - 27:32]: Well, forget about the kids. Like, I would even go so far. I would go even so far as, who cares about the kids? I want to make some money. It's not even worth that. Like, it's not even worth a retired individual getting up on a Saturday and getting me. I love repping. It's a great workout. It's a lot of fun. I'm in the game. I love to talk to the kids and the coaches and, like, I bet. 

Lee MJ Elias [27:32 - 27:33]: You'Re good at it, Mike. I'm not. 

Mike Bonelli [27:33 - 27:34]: I love it. 

Lee MJ Elias [27:34 - 27:35]: I love it. You're really good at it. 

Mike Bonelli [27:35 - 28:18]: I love it. If a coach says to me, rap, that was a worst call. And I'll be like, well, you know, it was a bad call. You put your line out against that line. That was like, you should have never done that. So we're having a conversation like you were expecting me to ref at the same level as the ref you watched on Saturday night on Hockey Night in Canada. Who is a professional, not who I am. And guess what? If that's who I was, I wouldn't be here repping you. So I think if you want more, again this. And I go, I know we're getting off topic. A little bit because it's in this, like it just, but it comes back down to, you know, what's every guest on our, what's every pro guest on our show say? Be a good person. 

Lee MJ Elias [28:18 - 28:18]: Right? 

Mike Bonelli [28:18 - 28:44]: That's it. Don't forget about talent, forget about your ability, forget about be a good person. And that goes into the stands. Are you going to get heated? I've seen so many games where I'm like, oh, God, that was a word. That was a bad hitter, man. That was really so disrespectful. It's just part of the game. If you don't want, you know, if you don't want, if you can't handle that piece, then it's very difficult to have be in sport. It just is. 

Lee MJ Elias [28:44 - 32:32]: Well, and going back to it, Mike, like, listen, I don't think we're off target here. I think this all comes back to the same topic, which is like, what do we do? And, you know, my favorite ref is right now is when I'm at a mic game or we'll just say like a beginner level hockey game and I see the ref make a call and go right up to the kid and explain, this is why I made that call. All right? Because they want, again, you don't usually get that out of a twelve year old ref. These are more experienced refs that are, they're teaching the game and they're doing this while the parents are. That was a horrible call. And he goes up to the kid and says, like, this is why. And look, I still see that even at the higher level sometimes. Again, double a, I've seen like, like something happened. He explained, this is why I did that. Those are the best reps. If they're getting screamed at, right? You can put, you can apply this to coaching, you can apply to anything. Why are they going to keep doing that? They're going to quit. And I think the other thing, Mike and Christie, right. People don't understand how good professional referees are. Like, hockey is easily the hardest coach, I'm sorry, hardest sport to officiate. Everyone says that. And all of those refs at the NHL, by the way, they make more money than all of us. They're professional referees, officials. So, you know, like bringing this back, though, to talk about how do we fix it, right? There's a common theme here and it's educate, educate the kids, educate the parents, educate the refs. And I think that, you know, if your kids on the older half of youth hockey, not much is going to change. But where does the change start from an organizational level. Starts at Adams and Meitz. I gave advice to a young coach the other day where he was talking in the locker room after a mic game and all the parents were getting their kids undressed. They were all doing things, and I'm like, no one's paying attention. So I told him, the next time you're in the locker room, I want you to tell the parents to please stop getting your kid undressed and let me have a couple minutes with the team. All right? And they did it, no problem. Right? Because you said it. You have to teach everyone involved that, okay, a coach is speaking. I need to be respectful parents. If you continue to get your kid undressed, you are teaching your kid that this doesn't matter. The way the coach is saying, doesn't matter. Now, listen, if you got to get your kid to the next game, fine, go to the coach and say, I got to get my kid to this next game. I've never seen a coach that just said, no, don't do it. Because the coach can then say, hey, Tommy's got to get to basketball. Okay? So he's going to get undressed. Everybody else, sit and listen. Those two or three minutes with your coach after the game, a pretty important time, and you're establishing this a little bit of a hierarchy that, hey, when coach speaks, we are respectful. Now, Mike Christy, the parents that I saw this weekend, you know, I wish you could say it's isolated incident, but it's not. Coaches, like you said, mike, coaches exactly like the parents screaming at the refs on the bench, screaming at the kids. I mean, it's a cultural problem. So if you want to change this within your organization, a, never assume you don't have those parents again. Same, same coach I was talking to said, I don't think we need the 24 hours rule with this team. And I said, you always need the 24 hours rule with every team. All right? Do not abandon that. That is one of your. You can't put it in after. After the season starts, right? It's got to be there from the start. So I think part of that is culture, from the organizational leaders having those rules, right, of like, look, this is how to do this. The young coaches making sure that they, they expect that kind of respect from the parents, and then, and then involving the parents explaining to them at the start of the season, this is how this is going to run. I'm not going to tolerate this behavior. Do not yell at the refs. Do not yell at the other parents. Right. And look, if you have to. Yeah. It can affect ice time. All right. Which is the last thing. You do not want to do that. But if a parent's not listening, coach, you might have to say, like, I don't think I can have your kid on the bench if you're not going to respond to what I'm saying. 

Christie Casciano [32:32 - 32:34]: They'll pay attention there. 

Lee MJ Elias [32:34 - 32:36]: Yeah. Curse at you first, but then they'll pay attention. 

Christie Casciano [32:37 - 32:45]: Disheartening, too. Lee, as you're sharing this story, and I know locally, the hockey season hasn't even started. Has it started where you are? 

Lee MJ Elias [32:45 - 33:01]: Oh, big time. Yeah. Yeah. We're fully playoffs down here, so we're recording this in. In mid to late October. Yeah, we're. We're well past the quarter mark here. Yeah. So this is. They've been doing it all season. 

Christie Casciano [33:01 - 33:05]: Parents have already had all the sensitivity training and everything. 

Lee MJ Elias [33:05 - 33:08]: I don't think they get that at all. I don't think the parents get any. 

Christie Casciano [33:10 - 33:18]: Back in the day. Yeah, we used to have to go to classes where they would show video and we'd have discussions and we'd have. 

Lee MJ Elias [33:18 - 33:24]: No, Christine, these parents were shouting stuff so freely. 

Christie Casciano [33:24 - 33:24]: Wow. 

Lee MJ Elias [33:25 - 33:39]: I mean, it was disgusting. I mean, I have no problem calling that out. And I said something to them then. It was disgusting. There was absolutely no control. Again, yelling at the refs and their own kids. It was disgusting. 

Christie Casciano [33:39 - 33:43]: That's where you need a rank manager to come and say, you're out of here. 

Lee MJ Elias [33:43 - 33:44]: I mean, it was horrible. 

Christie Casciano [33:44 - 33:59]: I love the idea of the red cards that Mike was talking about. I think, bring them back. Three cards, you're out. You're done. Bye. Or even get it. Develop an app where it would take other phones if they're big. You just got car. 

Lee MJ Elias [33:59 - 34:13]: Well, what I wish. What I wish is that the referee, and again, they were young, but I wish the referee would have blown the whistle, prosthetics and, well, just maybe open the door or something and said, if you cannot control yourself, I will end this game. You will forfeit the rest of this game. They will shut up right away. 

Christie Casciano [34:14 - 34:30]: Yeah. I love when refs do that. We've. I've seen it probably about a dozen times where parents have been kicked out of the ring because of what they're saying, what they're doing. Just, you're gone. You points them out of here, and they gotta leave. 

Lee MJ Elias [34:31 - 34:45]: I want to say, too, it's not even so much the cursing. Like, kids are gonna hear that I'm nothing. I don't want anybody to get lost on that. It was. It was the method in which the message was being delivered. It was just horrible, you know, it was disrespectful in every way. 

Mike Bonelli [34:46 - 34:52]: It's not the cursing so much for me, it's the, it's the inability to understand. You've lost control. 

Lee MJ Elias [34:53 - 34:53]: Right. 

Mike Bonelli [34:53 - 35:06]: Like, so to me, like, I've always, I've always had this, this standard with hockey parents. If you resort to swearing at me in a conversation, then the conversation ends. Like now. Now there's just no time. 

Lee MJ Elias [35:06 - 35:07]: We're done here. 

Mike Bonelli [35:07 - 37:17]: It becomes an f bomb session then. Okay, well, then let's, let's just. Then let's just, cuz I don't, again, I don't care about the 24 hours rule so much as long it's just up there. Know your audience, sure. But if you're gonna, if you're gonna come at me, swearing at me, then the conversation ends and we, and we have another conversation in a later date. Now, if you want to. If I talk to make a human being, and I think it's the same way, but I think, I think ultimately, you know, a couple of strategies you can use as an organization, too, is like, for me, when I used to do the coaching education program, there wasn't an educational session we ever had that didn't include a 45 minutes speech from the head referee in our region. So our head referee would be there with all these level one and two coaches and has had a conversation about the fact that we're all human beings and we're all here to help the sport and we're all here to, you know, accomplish a goal, is that to have a safe environment for a 60 minutes game? If we could do all that, then that, then at least now we have some kind of level playing field. Right? I think the other piece then is I would even go so far as to have at the beginning of the year, give the ref $45 like a normal game session, have them come in and be at your practice and say, this is what is illegal and this is what's legal. This is what you're going to get called for. Every time when you touch a players numbers on their back, you are going to get a call, no matter what. There is no gray area. You're going to get a call. And when you start in these conversations with players that understand the rules of the game are there to protect them and that sometimes there's going to be situations where, you know, the rules aren't followed, that's where a penalty occurs. And then that's what. Because here's the thing I've never understood, like, how do you get out of your mind crazy after a penalty for something that happened now in the past? Like, there's nothing you can do. You can't yell about it. And it not. It's not gonna happen. It just happened. So let's. Let's worry about, like, to me, what is that gonna change? I mean, have you ever seen a ref turn around and be like, oh, my God, because of the yelling now it's even a worse penalty. I think I got to give them even more minutes. It doesn't happen. 

Lee MJ Elias [37:17 - 38:33]: Well, if I can, Mike. So you're actually leading into something a little deeper here. None of the problems we're discussing are rooted in hockey. They're rooted in the person. Right. And so many people live outside the present moment. They live in the past. They live in the future where you have absolutely no control over those events. And people will say, well, I have to worry about these things. I have to. I have to talk about. I have to reminisce. No, you don't. That is a choice. Okay. I'm not saying that you don't reflect on your past or look to the future. I think there's a lot of enjoyment and learning that comes from that. But your life is happening right now, and you are so out of the present moment when you do these things that you are really teaching the kids, the other parent, everybody, the wrong way to do it. The other thing, too. I want to mention this, too. Everybody listening should note that I didn't comment on whether the refs were doing a good or bad job. These parents, follow me here. May have been very warranted in their criticism. All right. I actually acknowledge that. Like, like, I experienced the refs, they weren't perfect, but it's like, that's not the point. And I think that that's what these parents, if I had them on right now, did you watch that? You see how bad they were? And I could say, like, yeah, I did. And it still doesn't warrant your behavior. 

Christie Casciano [38:34 - 38:36]: Warrants the criticism, maybe, but not the behavior. 

Mike Bonelli [38:38 - 38:45]: A game where the referee was atrocious, and clearly the referees did not like our team. They just didn't like the team I was watching. 

Christie Casciano [38:45 - 38:48]: And that does happen, parents. It happens. 

Mike Bonelli [38:52 - 39:16]: This team doesn't just hatched out of an egg yesterday. They've been playing for months. So I don't like your team. You've never even seen my team. No, but I've been with your coaches, and I've seen this team. They're people to going into the game. I'm telling right now. Take it from a referee. You sit in the locker room, you're like. And you're looking your schedule agon. Ah, crap, I got this. 

Lee MJ Elias [39:16 - 39:19]: They remember, this is gonna be a long night. 

Mike Bonelli [39:19 - 39:57]: Like, this is gonna be a long day for me. And don't, you know. And then, and then, now they're on edge already. So I think thinking about, like, so I had a parent, you know, because my parents hate. Used to hate me from the side of like, oh, don't you think of this? And can't you believe that? I go, well, I mean, that was a penalty. We did trip the kid. I don't know what to tell you, like, or what that was from behind. Like, I'm like, oh, I'm not. Yes. Was it a bad call? But I don't know. Wouldn't you want that call against, like, for our kids? You'd want that. That same call, you touching the goalie in the crease. I probably want us to have that call. So just let's look at it from a rational standpoint. 

Lee MJ Elias [39:57 - 39:57]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [39:57 - 40:09]: And again, and then the best I love is the parents that are going crazy about, like, a non goal that went off the post or when the net and they think it went, what are you gonna go? Gonna go to live bar and do instant replay? It's over the game. 

Lee MJ Elias [40:10 - 40:14]: Parents do that. I've seen parents, how many times? 

Mike Bonelli [40:14 - 40:14]: How many times? 

Lee MJ Elias [40:15 - 40:16]: Never has a change. 

Mike Bonelli [40:16 - 40:52]: Never lean over the glass with their phone saying, look, look, this was a goal. And then how many times did the referee said, oh, shit. Yeah, you know what? It is a goal. Let's stop the whole game. Let's go back. Ten minute and 52 second mark, and we'll restart the game. It doesn't happen. This is a youth hockey game that, of course, referees are going to miss the play. Now, to Lee's point, you could say, well, my God, this referee, he just skates the blue lines. Blue line to blue line, blue line to blue line. Is that a good official? No, but the more officials we keep in the game, the easier it is to get rid of the crappy ones. But when there's no officials left, you get what you get. You don't get upset. It's a very simple. 

Lee MJ Elias [40:55 - 41:02]: Yeah, you go to a playground and yell at the kids on the monkey bars. I mean, that's essentially what you're doing. 

Christie Casciano [41:02 - 41:03]: I've seen that happen. 

Lee MJ Elias [41:03 - 41:04]: Oh, my goodness. 

Mike Bonelli [41:06 - 41:28]: You stink at the monkey bars. That kid is probably the worst monkey bar swinger I've seen yell about a kid you can yell about a kid that hogs yell about a kid that hogs the swing, right? And like, oh, my God, this kid hasn't been able to swing in 15 minutes. And my kidney, you know, maybe go and you see it, right? Apparently. Hey, you know, my son hasn't been on the swing in 15 minutes. Who the hell are you? Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I'm. 

Lee MJ Elias [41:28 - 41:29]: He was your first. 

Mike Bonelli [41:29 - 41:31]: Yeah, yeah. There's one swing here. I'm just asking. 

Lee MJ Elias [41:31 - 41:34]: It's got your name on it. Swings. Got your name on it. Okay, I get it. 

Mike Bonelli [41:34 - 41:37]: I get it. But, you know, we're in a different area. But I think it's just. 

Lee MJ Elias [41:37 - 41:38]: Yes, you are. 

Mike Bonelli [41:38 - 41:54]: You don't have any Minnesota nice people here. But I think it's like, you know, if, if we could just go back to the stands and you're thinking about the parenthood and you're just watching. And again, Christie, it's so hard to say something like, like, because then you're the one in the middle of. 

Lee MJ Elias [41:54 - 41:57]: And they. They might get aggressive with you. I think that's what, I think that's. 

Christie Casciano [41:57 - 42:00]: The apprehension that has happened as Mike. 

Mike Bonelli [42:00 - 42:06]: Oh, I got pointed right in my face the other day. Like, what you ever coach? Have you ever been in that situation? I'm like, no, no, but I do. 

Lee MJ Elias [42:06 - 42:09]: Have a top podcast you should listen to. 

Mike Bonelli [42:09 - 42:18]: No, but I know two people that have this situation every weekend. I think it's like to hear, like I said, this is nothing to your point, Lee. This has nothing to do with the sport. 

Lee MJ Elias [42:18 - 42:25]: Nothing. No. You know why? You know, I know that, Mike, because none of them will remember the game or the score in three weeks, but. 

Christie Casciano [42:25 - 42:39]: I will remember this. There is a fight right behind me with two parents. They. Were they on the same team? No, they weren't on the same team. And it was a fistfight, and I was right in front of them. I remember that I had duck. 

Lee MJ Elias [42:40 - 42:41]: Well, hey, the only reason I don't. 

Mike Bonelli [42:41 - 42:50]: Get involved is because I just, I just. I dread being on live Barna. I just, I just dread being on Instagram. Let me tell you guys dragged across the stands. 

Lee MJ Elias [42:50 - 44:40]: I told the story from, from today. Let me tell you a story from. From a long time ago, right when I was 14 years old, 15 years old, where there is no live barn. Back then, Mike and I saw a parent from my team. I get into a fistfight with a parent on another team on the ice after the game. And the reason I'm bringing this up, the situation doesn't matter what I remember and this. This is like this. This is, I think, important because this is what a child remembers. I remember being jarred by it, not in a good way. I remember being told that that was wrong and feeling that it was wrong. And I also remember this parent, and God bless him, came in front of the team the next day, essentially crying and apologized to all of us that he had done that. It wasn't. It was not fun. It was not a good moment. Nobody walked away from that thinking all, he's so cool for throwing hands, right at that age. It didn't play out the way I think anybody thought. It was because your ego took over. You weren't in the present moment, and you did something stupid, and you looked stupid right now. Again, I give him all the credit in the world, this parent, for apologizing the next day. He clearly understood that he had made a mistake and that it's not something he ever wanted to do, but he's got to live with that forever. So it's just parents. You're not having the effect that you think you're having when you do things like this, all right? In fact, it's all about you in those moments. There's nothing to do with the kids or the game. You're not pushing your kid. You're being an a hole, and you're showing everybody that you're being an a hole, all right? And then again, if you're gonna approach another parent, because I do think, personally, it is warranted. Sometimes somebody does have to say something. All right? First off, and I got to put this out here, ever hear anything racist or sexist? You got to say something. Do not. Do not allow that to slide. That stuff won't stop unless you do say something, all right? Ain't cool. It's not fun. There's no place for that in the game. I really mean, it's hard to leave. 

Mike Bonelli [44:42 - 44:56]: Think about you. It's so hard to do. It's so hard to. I mean, there has to be other strategies, right? Because it's so hard in a game, everyone's heated, and I. Because I've heard. I mean, there's a reason why I go sit in the corner. 

Lee MJ Elias [44:56 - 44:57]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [44:57 - 44:57]: By myself. 

Lee MJ Elias [44:57 - 44:58]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [44:58 - 45:19]: I can see hot cup of coffee and just keep my mouth shut and put my head down or. Or just stay home and watch on live barn is because I just. I. Cuz I know. Cuz I. It's. It's hard, and it's not hard to control yourself. It's hard to stand up and say something like that. 

Lee MJ Elias [45:19 - 47:29]: Was horrible. This right now, it is really hard. And I'm gonna say that depending on what is said, most of the times, I won't say anything, all right? I think. I think when someone's going crazy, I think it speaks for itself, all right? But if I ever. And look, it took me a long time to get here, but if I ever hear something racist or I ever hear something sexist, I've gotten myself to a point where I don't yell or anything, but I just say, like, hey, that's really inappropriate for the rink. And they might snap back at me. But you know what? I've never heard anybody say it again after that. They heard. They heard me. But my belief is this, that my. What's the right word here? My nerves in that situation don't trump the right thing to do. All right? Now, look, I'll be fully admitted here. Like, you know, I'm an interracial marriage, so this is a little bit of a soft spot for me. My kids are interracial. So as a father, who the hell am I if I don't say something? But my point is, I don't think you need those qualifications to say that's. That's wrong. Okay? Now, with that said, parents are cursing. They're going nuts. It's not. Let's just say it's not racial. It's not sexist on that. You know, if they're cursing in front of my kid, I have every right to be like, hey, man, like, I got ten year olds here. That's how I said it yesterday. All right? And you know exactly what they said. I don't give a. About your kids. And, you know. But they didn't say anything again near the kids, like, they heard me, all right? And my kids saw me do that, which I think is important, too. So, Mike, to your point, I'd say eight to nine out of ten times. Yeah, don't say anything. It's not. It's not worth the confrontation. But each one of us individually, and I mean that, you have to decide what's. What's the line for you? And I want to reiterate, Mike, I never. I'm never aggressive in those confrontations. Like, I don't go at them like, you're an a hole. You're wrong. I just go, you know, hey, I. It's really not appropriate to say that here. You know, Mike, I say my kid is interracial, all right? He's on the ice. I don't appreciate that. I'll tell you right now, most people aren't stupid enough to keep going because you. You're going to get yourself kicked out of the rink if you do something like that. That's not a hard one for people to do it. But, Mike, I completely understand what you're saying, but I can't stand by. 

Mike Bonelli [47:29 - 47:36]: I think it's all the context of where you're at. Like, when you're at these showcases now, I mean, people are basically popping open the bottles at 730 in the morning on the tailgate. 

Lee MJ Elias [47:36 - 47:37]: That's true. 

Mike Bonelli [47:37 - 48:58]: They're drunk by the time they get into the rink at 10:00 so I think it's like, okay, well, if you're going again, that goes back to culture and education and what. And what are we doing as a. As a youth hockey world, right, where you can go to a quote unquote showcase that's supposed to be, you know, centered around your kids getting exposure, and you're getting all lit up in the parking lot, you know, before your game or you're stumbling out of the bar. And then that's because 90% of the time, that's why these confrontations happen. I mean, these aren't sober people. They aren't. These are. These are. Or they're inherently racist or they're. Or they're inherently sexist or they're inherently, like, have no filter. So, again, so it all comes down to how are you selecting your team? I just had. I just had a, you know, I just did a program with a team, you know, with the ends and the buts, right? Are you an end or you. But are you. Are you. Do you have a lot of ends and how you're going to accomplish what you do? Or is it. But. But. And sometimes you have to do that as a coach, picking your team like, oh, I love this kid. But his parents. Ugh, the dad. Ugh, the mom ish or the ends, right? Oh, mom's great. She's. She does all the scheduling. Dad, awesome. Brings Gatorade every game, you know, and this. End that. End this. Like, you need to establish or you will get what you select. 

Lee MJ Elias [48:58 - 48:59]: Right. 

Mike Bonelli [48:59 - 49:15]: If that's the case, then you need to really, really do a hit job on creating a culture that accepts not. Not being aggressive and yelling and screaming like, we all want to be energized at a game. I love it. 

Lee MJ Elias [49:16 - 49:16]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [49:16 - 49:25]: But there has to be somewhere that the line of where that is going has to be pretty clear and defined. 

Lee MJ Elias [49:25 - 49:26]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [49:26 - 49:37]: Then you have to back it up. Member to roll in October. To roll. You'll want. You'll you'll start to wonder why, you know, half your team is not returning the following year. 

Lee MJ Elias [49:37 - 49:38]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [49:38 - 49:52]: And half the team, you don't want to return the following year. So it's like, it's like this whole thing. But again, it comes down to the person who's spearheading the program. 95% of the time, you can dictate that culture. 

Lee MJ Elias [49:52 - 49:54]: Yeah, I agree with you. 

Christie Casciano [49:55 - 49:57]: The organization, too. Not just. 

Mike Bonelli [49:57 - 50:01]: Yeah. Who you're hiring. Who are you hiring to represent the children? 

Lee MJ Elias [50:01 - 51:34]: I'm going to say it again, too, that, Mike, I agree with what you're saying. And look, every individual person listening to this, your moral standards are your moral standards. I'm not trying to tell you what you should or should not believe. Okay? That's not for me to do. But I will reiterate this, that when I do these things where I say something, it has very, very little to do with the person I'm talking to and more to do that I know these kids are watching me. Right. And it's not that I feel like I have a personal responsibility to tell you to stop doing it. It's I need my son and my daughter to know that I have their back in those situations. I have to have them, and I want their teammates to see it, too. Just. And again, hey, that's not appropriate. Now, they know I am. I stand up for them. Right. And that's the lesson I want them to learn. Right. Look, there's times you can't do that. All right? Now, Mike, with your point, this really, again, it's got to start from the top down. Right? It's one thing when I do it, when the organization does say, we don't, we don't stand for this. Right. That's, that's very powerful. Right. In the parents. And I'm going to say this one more time, because, again, we're talking about the dark side of hockey here. Far more good parents than bad parents. Far more. I mean, way, way more. We're talking 98% of parents are fine. All right? And I do want to shout out all those parents that are so positive all the time and pushing their kids to do better and that they're saying the right messages. And I think that that kind of almost rounding this out, that might be the best way to combat this is the positive has to outweigh the negative. 

Christie Casciano [51:34 - 51:41]: Absolutely. There's strength in numbers. And as a veteran hockey mom, I can tell you over the years, and I, you know, I'm talking 20 years of hockey, right? 

Lee MJ Elias [51:41 - 51:42]: Yeah. 

Christie Casciano [51:42 - 52:19]: Majority, very positive experiences. But those bad experiences stick out in my mind still to this day. It's hard to forget them. Unfortunately, they happen. But there is a way, I think you can police yourselves as a group and come to their strength in numbers and say to you, and I encourage you to read this month's. It's an October article of USA Hockey magazine, my column, which is entitled let's aspire to do no harm. And that's the value ought to take at the beginning of the season. Do no harm. 

Lee MJ Elias [52:20 - 53:08]: We should have led with that. It's a great bow. It's a great boat. I love it when the article, but I love that, Christy, because it's true, is that, you know, don't forget to embrace the, the good families, you know? And like I said, I'm very blessed this season. I've been blessed most seasons. But we just have such a great group of parents with, with this team right now that I'm, that I'm coaching on. I mean, it's a joy, regardless of the result, to be with this group. And that's what I want to hold on to long term. I want to remember those seasons, not, not these idiot parents that I saw yesterday. And you guys are idiots. I hope you're listening, but you're nothing good, I gotta say. Yeah. And so look, to those of you listening, let's just close it on this and we'll get, you know, go around. 

Christie Casciano [53:08 - 53:09]: The whole, I mean, I get to say the goodbye. 

Lee MJ Elias [53:10 - 54:31]: I'm gonna give you the goodbye. I'm gonna give you the close. Trust me, I'm happy in this flow state of where I'm at here, this optimist prime. But this is what I'll say my final word before I toss it to you, Mike, and then we'll throw it to Christie for the close. The negative parents, the dark parents, if you want to call them that. They don't define. Yeah, they don't define the culture of this, this sport. There is far more good that comes out of this sport. And if you listen to this show, and so many people do, we are so flattered by that. You know, you're not those parents, all right? There's just no way. You listen to this show and you're going back to the rank and cursing it your own kids. And as Christy said, there is strength in numbers. The fact that this show constantly ranks in the top ten hockey podcasts and it won awards and has the audience size that it has should come. It comforts me. It should comfort you out there that we have the strength in numbers. You're doing a great job. You love your kid. If you listen to this show, I mean, we all do, all right? But you're trying to do the best you can. So I just want to give the final shout out on the solution is to you, the listeners, because you're looking for that further conversation. That's the key. You want to change anything, you got to talk about it, discuss it, right. And go back and forth with this. All right. I'm saucing the puck over to Mike. 

Christie Casciano [54:31 - 54:33]: Before we close it out. Mike, any final thoughts? 

Mike Bonelli [54:34 - 55:24]: You know, listen, I just think when you're, when you, when you finish listening to this episode and you're a manager or a coach or an influencer on your team, come up with, come up with your own strategies to combat this and implement it and then get back to us and let us know it didn't work. But I just, just try to put yourself in a situation that just say, just say I tried. And here's what I'd like to do and here, and just implement very simple things to help sway the culture of the kids on your team, the attitude and the aggression in the stands. And I just think anything you can do is going to be a positive outlook. And I think, to Lee's point, go out of your way, thank those referees that show up, please, and just get into a great habit. That's a habit, right? Just get into a habit of saying, hey, raph, thanks so much for showing. 

Lee MJ Elias [55:24 - 55:26]: Up, you and the kids, right? 

Christie Casciano [55:27 - 55:48]: And it's not too late to develop those new habits, even if you're mid season, because that's when you'll be listening. We're looking at December, right? It's not too late to turn things around. All right. On behalf of Lee Elias, Mike, I'm Christy Casciano. Thank you so much for listening. That'll do it for this edition of our kids play hockey Skate off. 

Lee MJ Elias [55:48 - 56:15]: We hope you enjoyed this edition of our kids play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network or our website, our kidsplayhockey.com. also, make sure to check out our children's book when hockey stops. At when hockey stops. It's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much for listening to this edition of our kids play hockey, and we'll see you on the next episode.