Mental Edge Hockey Founder Sandy Cohan on Confidence, Belief, and Youth Sports

SPEAKER_04 1:23

Hello, hockey friends and families around the world, and welcome to another episode of Our Kids Play Hockey. I'm Leah Lyas, joined by Christy Cash and Burns and Mike Benelli, and today we're thrilled to welcome a guest whose work sits at the heart of what this show is all about. Developing better players and better people through hockey. That is the ROI. Zandy Cohen is the founder of Mental Edge Hockey, a program that trains players, parents, and coaches to master confidence, focus, and emotional control. Parents listening. Yes! Just like they train their skating and shooting. He's also the author of the uh 99 Rules series, 99 Rules Every Athlete Needs to Know, 99 Rules Every Sports Parent Needs to Know. I have them in my hand for those of you uh not watching. Uh, we're gonna have some fun with these books today because they are amazingly good and quick reads. Uh, nuggets of gold on every single page there. Uh, but they're two powerful guys to simplify what it takes to build success from the inside and out, and that's really what it's all about. But Sandy's work has helped athletes from youth to pro, that always seems to be a qualifier on the show, overcome mental blocks, strengthen resilience, and rediscover their love for the game, which is essential if you want to succeed. And today, he's here to help your hockey family do the same. Sandy, welcome to our kids play hockey.

SPEAKER_03 2:38

Thank you so much. That's a heck of an intro. Want you to follow me around all day and just talk like that. Yeah, I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_04 2:45

It would be very interesting if I followed people around. Today, Christy Cassiano Burns is walking down the street as she reads the news. No, go ahead, go ahead, Christy. Did you have something?

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Sandy, no, uh, well deserved. Um, you've helped so many. And we're just curious about your humble beginnings with mental edge hockey. Great concept, widely accepted now, but probably in the beginning, you probably had to get people used to the concept. Tell us how it all began.

SPEAKER_03 3:15

Um and still, still getting people, I think, used to the the topic. So um I think much like a lot of players, um, once my career was was over, you you you love the sport, you stay connected to it. Um, you end up probably coaching in some form or fashion. Um, and I was doing that mostly on the skill development side, right? Like I didn't want to coach teams. I was my thing was I was trying to do make a difference, you know. So whether it was skating work or or positional stuff. Um, but the these were high-level players, you know, best best of the best. Um and I spent about a year and a half somewhere in there, really wondering what was it that was making some make it and some weren't. And when I say it, honestly, I'm I'm only talking about maximizing their potential, right? Because at that level, I mean, everybody had skills, everybody had tons and tons of game. So just the more time I I spent kind of looking into it, there was a mindset piece that I thought a thinking piece, um, that it was different, I think, when when I was growing up. I think you either had it or you didn't, you know, it was almost kind of you you didn't talk about it. Um, but who was teaching younger players, younger people, how to process, how to think, um, how to be confident, what to focus on, what not to focus on. So that led me down uh this journey, lots of lots of learning and and uh tapping into, I think, a lot of great coaching experiences that I had, um, a lot of bad coaching experiences that I had, like for me as a player. Um and it was funny, when I first started, I don't think people fully understood why they were reaching out. It just something something wasn't being maximized, like they couldn't put their finger on it, but you know, maybe it was a season that they didn't like or or just just something performance-wise. Um I absolutely love it. Um I spend a tremendous amount of my time trying to avoid the word mental performance. This is just me, mental performance, and and only because I think there's a stigma that's associated with that that suggests that somebody is broken, and this isn't like a PC thing, but um I don't look at it that way. I think mindset is the foundation of the building, and I don't care what you're trying to stack on top of it, it is irrelevant if the foundation of that building is not strong. So my world is belief, attitude, grit, focus, emotional control, discipline, self-awareness. Um, and been doing it ever since. Uh, do a lot of customized work or a lot of a lot of work with uh you know big programs or organizations, but the goal is to try and make a difference. Um, and I think that parents play such a huge part in that. Um, and I know you guys believe it, right? Like at the end of the day, hockey's the vehicle, you know, like we're trying to build great people, you know, hockey's just the vehicle. So um I'm super passionate about trying to bridge that gap.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

You know, it's funny. Uh I think I use that same terminology or same thought process when I hear talk people talking about like specialized pieces of the game, uh like power skating. And I'm like, well, isn't it just just proper skating? Like, isn't that something you should be doing every day? Like, why do we have a separate category for learning how to skate properly? Well, that should be what we're doing every day when we go on the ice. We should be teaching that, right? So I think you know, when you talk about like, you know, mental fitness or mental performance, or we should be this, these are these are like core components we should be doing and incorporating into our daily life with our athletes, right? I mean, it shouldn't be it shouldn't have to be a specialized piece of what we do. It is, it is, but it shouldn't have to be, it should be just a core component. Um, but that's why 99 rules for every athlete exists, right? So uh can you talk to a little bit about you know your feelings about how you need uh, you know, most most people aren't born with this. Uh you uh and I and I I personally think, you know, obviously, and you do, you could train this. I also think you could you could beat this out of somebody, right? If they have if they have a little bit of it, you it's a lot easier to take it away than to than to incorporate it sometimes. And can you talk a bit about what that looks like for a youth hockey athlete and training you know the mental side of the game for them? Uh if they don't have that coach that's doing that every day.

SPEAKER_03 8:10

I so I I agree with you that I I wish this is my personal wish. I wish that more organizations, you know, across the board, pick your sport, spend a little bit more time on the mindset component, on really kind of building these foundationally strong human beings that they understand the power of what goes on inside their head. Everything else, right? Like the the things that can't be controlled, um, those are not always relevant, but there are many, many things that can be impacted. Um, but I've found that many younger people don't have a full understanding about those things that they can control, how to tap into that, um, how to think. So, yeah, I I wish that more organizations spent more time because as you guys know, the players today they're bigger, faster, stronger. Um, but there seems like a a piece that hasn't been as developed. I'm not bashing any any parents, or everybody's trying to do the best that they can to raise, you know, their kids. But um, you know, there's like a quit element, there's a lack of grit element, um, there's uh almost like a protect from the fall element. And my whole thing is, you know, we all want our kids to be safe, but what if the message wasn't to try and prevent the fall? But if the message was to teach the get back up, you know, to to teach the grind element. Um, and that's life. I mean, that's not just sports, it's it's life. But um I think it's so important. Um, and I do think that that is the difference maker as you go up and up in levels. Um it's everybody has game, everybody has jump. What is the difference maker? Who can solve problems, who has perseverance, uh, who can trust themselves, who can stay focused, and who can't. Um, and I think that typically is the separator.

SPEAKER_04 10:21

You know, I'll I'll say this too that we always say on the show there's no perfect parents, right? There's no perfect coaches, there's no perfect players. And I I want the audience to understand too, because Sandy, you bring up a great point. Like there's no perfect answer to this question. It is a balance, there's a finding of balance, right? And I've seen I think there absolutely is a wrong way to do it, okay? And I've seen both spectrums of that. And you know, it's funny is to me, and and for the everybody here, you can agree and disagree with what I'm saying here. The extreme sides of both to me are incorrect. So there's the overprotective side of, like you said, do not let them fall, do not let them feel pain. That you're not doing them any favors. And then there's the far other side, which is get up, don't cry, don't feel anything, move. You you know, when I say to do something, you do it. They both have the same result, which is the kids do not grow up confident, the kids do not grow up with resilience. Again, we had we have studies now that show that what we'll call that the traditional old school type of parenting, that it doesn't work, it doesn't work anymore, and uh largely because people are aware of their mentality and their mindset, right? When we had no clue what was going on on that 60 years ago, you know, I mean, there's there's obviously deeper lying psychological issues that spawn from this, don't get me wrong, but we didn't know. So the truth is this, and this is the point I'm gonna make the answers in the balance between those two extremes, and especially for the parents listening and the coaches listening, you're gonna mess up, you're gonna make mistakes. I preach mindfulness every day, and I still make mistakes with it. There are games that I don't coach as well as I want to, there are days I am not the dad I want to be. I'm okay saying that because it's it's just not possible, right? Because and last thing I'll say before I throw it back, even if I was the best at it, man, kids are gonna test you, they're gonna put you on the edge, you're gonna they're gonna say something that makes you wanna you wanna raise a hand, right? Um, or as my father always told me, when you think you're gonna kill them, they change, right? By the way, just for the FCC, I'm being metaphorical on that. Anyway, I'll throw that back.

SPEAKER_03 12:29

Yeah, at least so I I I I think just one thing on that. Yeah, I what I think helps, um, because I agree, it is a balance and they're they're it's it's challenging, it's challenging for organizations, it's challenging for parents. What what I have found with the younger players though is one of the first places to start is like even identifying what success means, right? Even like where is it that we're trying to go? I don't know if it's right or wrong, but I ask players this all the time, you know, if they're having challenges, or even a parent saying, gosh, my kid doesn't have any confidence. I I can we define what to play well means. I don't know what it means for your child, right? But if but if we don't know that's a great question, I don't know writing that down. I don't know if we're I don't know how we're gonna celebrate progress. I don't know how we're gonna make changes, I don't know how we're gonna do any of that stuff.

SPEAKER_04 13:29

You know, let's let's reverse engineer that real quick. And sorry, Christy, I know you have a question as well.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

No, no, this is good.

SPEAKER_04 13:34

Uh you know it you bringing up a really great question. If we asked a 10-year-old, what does success mean? My guess is there's a good chance they're gonna say winning the game, winning the game is success. And to me, that's that's that's not actually a great answer, Sandy, right? Like that's a good goal.

SPEAKER_03 13:51

If the if they know, yeah, if they know it's always outcome focused, always right, it's never an action or behavior, right? It's very win-lose, score, didn't score. But yeah, you're right. What I I literally do that in the first uh I'll ask a player what what does it even mean to be to have a good game? And you know, for boys, it's you know, good, yeah, one word, but even with the girls, even with the girls, and we try to pull it out of them. And I I say that this is kind of a big deal because if they don't know, right, like the unit, the parents, everybody's got to be at least on the same page for right. What is what are we what are we trying to do here?

SPEAKER_04 14:35

Well, and I I'll I'll answer this in two parts, right? So at least I'll give my definition of this and then I'll I'll tell you how I approach this with kind of um higher level teams, right? Uh, my definition of success for just youth hockey for a player is that you can look me and your teammates in their eye and say, hey, I did the best, really, the best I absolutely could do today, right? And if you didn't do that, it wasn't a success, and that's okay. Like that's also part of the conversation, right? Let's try and get better tomorrow. What I tell the older teams for my personal goal, like my definition of success in hockey, I'm gonna I'm gonna keep it specific to hockey or sports, is to get a complete mental and physical effort from every athlete for the entirety of the game, every game. And then I tell them right after I say that, and I will fail at that goal every time I coach, because it's almost impossible. It is, it is I believe it to be possible, but it's almost impossible. Yet that is my goal. And I always kind of say to to Snap them is my goal is to fail every single time we take the ice. But the pursuit of that goal, of that definition of success, will take you so much farther if the goal is just win the game. Because I have yet to have a team, everybody listening, I have yet to have a team when I say what's the goal, they go to lose the game, coach, or we want to come in fifth this year. No one says everybody wants to win, right? So the the why, the behind that, like going deeper, Sandy, to your point, defining success, that's probably how you're gonna find it. Because a common goal of winning is not a great goal, right? I'm just putting that out there.

SPEAKER_03 16:15

I I think that it's um it's how you find it, but also in that reverse engineering concept, I I think that a lot of players can take great comfort. We as people can take great comfort when we when we have steps, when we have routines, when there are things we can control. So it's almost like whatever to play well means, you know, it's the quintessential uh you talk to someone like I want to score more goals, and we can either focus on just goal scoring, or we can say, Okay, well, how do you think we do that, right? You gotta shoot, you gotta make plays, you gotta take chances, you gotta move your feet, right? So it's like the focusing on that, when you add all that up together, that gives the best opportunity to achieve the outcome that we want. You know, it's like I don't know how to bake, but if I just put all this stuff together, I eventually I'm gonna get a cake, you know, like I can focus on the cake or just keep adding the ingredients. So that's that's the hope, I think, for younger people is to teach them that.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

And how early do we teach them? Especially if you could send a message to all the youth hockey volunteer coaches out there who probably feel as if they've got a lot on their plates already. You know, they have to, you know, they got to do the scheduling, they've got to deal with parents, they've got to figure out how to, you know, there's a lot. So now you're saying, oh, now I have to enter this into the place as well. Um, maybe you can kind of break it down for them of it's not that difficult. There's some simple ways you can introduce this to the littles.

SPEAKER_03 17:56

I agree with everything that you just said, and I do believe that a lot of times it seems like a burden. It it's like, oh, like I'm just a I'm just a dad or a mom out here trying to have the kids have fun. Right. I think that is totally appropriate. I I think the more information, the better. I think that kids will follow if led. And I think that they want boundaries and barriers. I I think that they want that. So I talk a lot of times, you know, when I ask coaches this question, I'd love to get Lee's thought on this, but you know, what's what's their goal? You know, because yeah, if it's we're trying to make the playoffs, like that's that's that's gonna be an outcome. But if you want the best chance of getting there, the answers are always in well, what are the daily actions and behaviors that when and if we do them, that is where we're going to be. So I I think the younger the better, it's on varying levels, but for younger kids, I think focus is the biggest one. And you know, focus and grit, those are like kind of the two. I can make a case that all the other ones can kind of come from those, but even just helping younger kids focus, I think so many times they're trying to block out when I think a lot of the work can be just help them lock in, you know, like what do you want them to think about? You know, I'll take this too.

SPEAKER_04 19:30

Yeah, the there's a phrase that I heard. I I I actually can't remember where I heard this, but it really um was very impactful into how I coach, which was um, kids crave discipline. And when I really understood that, it really changed how I coach, right? Because I think that that there's sometimes a soft approach of oh, kids don't want to be disciplined. Well, first off, you got to define discipline. Discipline is not yelling at them and screaming at them, discipline is structure, right? I mean, you could probably say kids crave structure too, right? But um, they want to be uh put into a place where I know where I'm going, I know what I'm supposed to do. And yeah, you're always gonna have you know a kid or two here that's that's acting out, but kids crave discipline. Now, Sandy, to your point too, yes, about you know how I approach it as a coach. It's funny because Mike always talks about from a drill standpoint that we should be able to do it's the same drills with squirts that we do with pros in a lot of ways. It's it's it's not like the pro players have these incredibly intricate, amazingly hard drills that only pros can do, right? Like drills are drills. Well, I approach how I coach the same way too, in the sense of I you mentioned it. I I'd like to know my outcome. And the outcome, guys, can range from winning a gold medal to smiles on kids' faces, right? Like it can really range like that. Um, and what I wish more coaches would do is break down, like you said, okay, I want to be here. Now, what are the skill sets or systems we need to play? I'll do that. What are the systems we need to play to get there? Okay, what are the aspects of the system? What are the skill sets in the system? Then you look at each player. Who has these skill sets? Who doesn't? When you start to break things down like that, that's how I approach coaching. So, for example, if I'm working with a 10U team, I I don't like to do a completely different practice every single practice. I like to take to take a month. Uh, I'm not saying I'm gonna do the same practice eight times, but I'm gonna have a goal for that month. This month, and skating's always on it, but this month we're gonna work on uh catching a pass on our backhand and moving that puck forward or just passing in general. It can be as broad or as minute as you want. And then I'm gonna this is the other key. I'm gonna tell the players that's the goal. I think that's a huge missing point with coaches. They they go, well, we're gonna work on all this, but you never tell your players the why or what you're doing. And when you don't do that, we talk about craving structure, they're just gonna go through the motions and they might not really pick up on it. Like this is true of pro players, too. If you don't give them the this is the goal, as a team, I want to accomplish better passing, and all the drills we do this month are to accomplish better passing. Well, now they have oh, coach wants me to pass better. That little light bulb going on, now the learning can really start taking place. And I tell them, hey, look, if we get by week three, if we get where I want to get, we'll move on to something else. But for the next three weeks, this is the goal. Now, what you got to be aware of, and parents, now I'm talking to you, is sometimes parents, Mike, Mike, you'll love this. Parents will be watching this and go, why are they only working on passing? How come they're not working on shooting? Well, I need them to pass before they can shoot. And and parents, it's not that I don't want to win games in youth hockey. Like, like, trust me, as a coach, I love winning. I hate losing. But the truth is this is if they don't develop that skill, we're not gonna win. And the last time I checked, most teams make the playoffs in youth hockey. So that's an age review coach, Mike. Everything, Mike Chris.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

I work I work with uh, you know, literally, I mean, at this point, it's hundreds of coaches, right? That and and and skills instructors and and uh and learn to play uh people. And I think that's where I mean, I I think that's where we can We could do such a better job and not thinking we have to reinvent, you know, we don't have to be Herb Brooks on the on the glass, you know, uh display board coming up with some kind of crazy intricate drill system that the kids just look at you weaving for weaving's sake, Mike. I'm just kidding. Go ahead, go ahead. Like what like what are we like? I don't understand, like I don't even understand where we went with that. And I think we're to Lee's point, like when I do, you know, when we when we work with the NHL, learn the play guys, and we're like, this guys, 10 weeks. It could be the same lesson plan for 10 weeks, they're still not gonna get it. But 10 weeks, like like when you go, and I think we don't take enough uh cues from like real teachers, like we don't we don't take cues from you know real uh biz ed teachers that would say, no, you would never just you know, you'd slowly integrate in to a skill that you want to get to. And I think, you know, I think this comes to you know what you talk a little bit about or a lot about is you know, in mental performance and mental training, I think one of the core components of that is confidence, right? And I think it's it's how do players gain confidence if you don't give them the building blocks to be confident. And you know, I hear parents uh, you know, oh, we want to play, you know, like the old adage when I grew up was you can never you can't be the best until you play the best. Like you can never be the best unless you play the best. I go, yeah, but if you're always playing the best and you never touch the pot, you're never gonna get better. Like you're never gonna gain confidence to feel what it feels like. There are steps, right? Can you talk a little bit about you know how do you build those that that that confidence piece into players and maybe talk about the pitfalls of like how do we lose confidence in a in a nine-year-old so quickly?

SPEAKER_03 24:54

So this this is um I'm sure everybody here hears this. This is the most popular question. It's the it's the if players I think are being honest, they say that you know they lack it, and parents always want it for their kids. Where I always start with this, I did not come up with this, I wish that I did, but I had a coach back in high school that said, This is the difference. He always used to use the word belief, and up until that point, you know, I I just thought it was a synonym. He said, Here's the difference between belief and confidence. If you think about a tree outside, what you see above ground, that's confidence. What you don't see below ground, that's belief. So, in the example of that tree, right? Like, no roots, no tree, no belief, no confidence. So I I talk about that a lot with players, and I think that confidence is a place where we end up when we are tapping into belief. So many players are just like, I just want to feel confident right now. Well, confidence is the destination, but I could do this with any player. Tell me about think about the best play you made last season. Highlight real goal, everybody went nuts, everybody went crazy, parents were there, your family was there, teammates were mobbing you. And I literally do this over Zoom, and you could see them thinking. I say, You don't have to tell me, but I I always I see I see them smile at every level, and that's when I know that they have a thought. And I say, You could probably remember like the rink where you were, the jersey, you know, what side of the ice, like you probably remember every detail, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Get a little fire in your belly, yo, yeah, yeah. I said, Well, do you know what that feeling is called? That feeling is called confidence, but the way that we did it was we just tapped into a time when you have done before, right? So I think that so much of the challenge with confidence and belief, the overthinkers, it's ironic because a lot of the older players, I think, struggle with this. I know I did. Um the difference between convincing and reminding, like the older guys and gals spend a lot of time trying to convince themselves. Where the younger kids, you can teach them, it's really a reminder, right? Because when we are spending all of our time trying to convince, the brain already doesn't believe. So working in the reminders, which so much of this can be done away from the rink, how to think, tapping into that belief, having those mental highlight reels, walking into the rink knowing because you've done it before, that you can see it. You can see it on their faces.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

It's amazing how as us as parents forget like how we watched our children learn to skate. Like, and they got up and they made a couple of steps, and that we like we were like the like it was the worst skating you ever seen in your life, but we cheered them on like they had just won an Olympic gold medal. Like the the and and we forget that those building blocks happen at every stage of life. Like, if I could just give you, like, oh my god, that was such a great effort. Like, I know my son at one point, you know, my wife would be like, Oh my god, that was just a great game to get mom. It wasn't a good game. I know what good games are. Like that to me was like what I know he knew what his confidence was. Like I knew like when he was like, okay, stop praising me. It wasn't good. Like in the bomb's like, oh, it was great. But when you watch your children skate and they make those first two steps, everyone knows they're horrible. But what do you do? You encourage them, you cheer them on, you tell them how great it was. And then what and what's that kid do? It's just this kid smiling ear to ear, yeah, and he sees that everybody's embracing it. But I think at the same time, imagine if your child stepped on the ice, they fell on their face, and you gave you gave them like this like, oh my God, like this is not, yeah, this is not gonna work. What would you what would your four-year-old do? They may not have a lot of confidence to want to do that again. I mean, Mike, you speak for yourself.

SPEAKER_04 29:09

I was a great skater right from the start.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

But anyway, I'll I'll say I started at 12. So I started at three years old, too.

SPEAKER_03 29:18

So Christy, do you have sons, daughters to play both?

SPEAKER_00 29:22

Uh both of them played. Um, they're now adults. Um and Sophia played college hockey. Uh, my son played right through high school. So um they're on other things now, but hockey is still a part of their lives. They love the game. And you know, my daughter even built an ice rink last year. She did. She's we should bring her on for a report.

SPEAKER_03 29:42

Yes, we want to see it. You know, because this this this topic is is really, I'm always so interested in parents of girls versus boys with this. Like the way that they come to this mindset piece is totally different.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

Yeah, I can see, you know, and my daughter came to that mindset in high school because she saw you had to have confidence if you wanted to succeed and go on to play college hockey, right? And so she developed that early on, which was great. And it got her right through college because, as you know, you're really battle-tested in college hockey. And if you don't have that mental peace, you will fail. And I and I saw a lot of girls her age in college, women, young women, her age in college, who just couldn't take it. I think what they were lacking was that toughness up here, and that's why they didn't cut it. Um but yeah, it's it's a huge critical piece if your kids want to go on and succeed in this sport.

SPEAKER_04 30:47

And I'll say too, Christy, you know, really great coaches can sense that. You know, we call them gamers, right? But I can tell you too, you know, when we're in high pressure situations, I can see which players are better at this than the others because they're they're able to get really present and they're able to kind of rise up for the big moment. Um, you know, it reminds me of another great quote. I again, I'm a big quote guy, and actually segue nicely in their books in a minute, Sandy, but um, you know, no one who was ever courageous felt courageous in the moment. And when I heard that, I was like, Wow, that's good. Like when you see someone win the Medal of Honor, yeah, or you see someone, you know, I had a player who had a big penalty shot, and I remember she said, like, you know, I was terrified, and then I just kind of settled in and got focused. No one in the moment feels I'm courageous, right? You just do it, you do it because you your mind and your muscle memory kind of take over. Now, to the point of this episode, that can be trained, and it can be trained a lot younger than anyone realizes. Like, we well, that person has 20 years experience. Yeah, don't get me wrong, this 20 years' experience is 20 years experience, but you can start teaching this to kids as as young as six, seven, eight years old, um, just by how the coaching, how the mental health, I'm sorry, not mental health, mental fitness or the mindset, as you said, Sandy, um, is portrayed to them. And we we have not been doing this until recent years. Um, Sandy, I do want to segue here real quick, because I I want to talk about your 99 rules books. Um, uh, because this is what I love about your books. All right, for the audience listening, we're gonna do a little exercise here. All right, Mike, pick a book, 99 rules every athlete needs to know or every sports parent needs to know. Well, I need the parent. Okay, I'm so I have that one in my hand. And this is this is why this is a valuable book. Christy, just say stop whenever you're ready. Stop say stop whenever you're ready. No, just tell me stop, stop. Okay, page 145. All right, it's not, I just picked a random page. Rule 59, just keep showing up. Thank yous, don't always come on time. Your effort won't always get noticed. Sometimes your support won't be acknowledged for years. Show up anyway. Parents who want to raise great humans and confident athletes, invest without needing applause, give without keeping score, stay steady, stay committed. Consistency is currency, faith is the investment. That's a random page that just happens to have everything to do with what we're talking about right now.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

Consistency is currency.

SPEAKER_04 33:06

Every page in these is like that. Like you could, I'm not gonna you could go to any page in either book, and it I said it in the open. It's like it's just a gold nugget. But things like this are so important for all of us. Like the daily reminders, the daily push. Again, look, being a parent's hard. It's like the hardest job in the world, right? Why not take the help? But Sandy, I'm I'm gonna bring this back. Like, tell me why you wrote these, how you kind of you know got to the point of like this is the format we're gonna do. I mean, and then I'd love to know if you have any favorite passages or things that really stuck out to you.

SPEAKER_03 33:41

So I wrote the uh I wrote the athlete book first, and honestly, like you, we're probably like all athletes, like I was a quote guy, like I love taking nuggets from things, I'm writing posted note, like I love those kind of phrases. Um so I you know probably I I nerd out a little bit more than others, and I write a lot of stuff down. Um, and I started looking back through a whole bunch of stuff, and said, gosh, I would love to write something that um basically is the type of book that I would have wanted to have read when I was younger. And I admit that I was not a great student, I was not a humongous reader. Um, but I want I would have loved something like this that you could kind of go to any page, you know, you can mark it up, you can take it with you. Um, and there'd be something in there that would resonate. Um, so that kind of led me on on this journey for the the athlete book. Um, and while I was doing that, um I had one of my buddies that was like, this, you know, parents, everyone's trying, we're all trying to do the best that we can, right? A lot of stuff's well intended, maybe not perfectly executed. There has to be something like this, also, maybe for parents. And I I said, Yeah, I kind of tapped into maybe things that I had seen, or or um, probably stuff that I did wrong for a while. Um, and just wanted to create something that would be a resource, right? Um, that was easy to get through, memorable. Um, and you could always do the the Christie thing, you know, flip the pages, hit stop, and something you really can resonate.

SPEAKER_04 35:27

You really and the and the athlete books the same way, like it's it's very easy to read, very easy to jump on, you know, and it begs the question. We always talk about the ride to the rink, right? How do you prepare? And I'd say 98% of hockey players are on some sort of digital device right now, not not preparing. And it's like something like this like a couple passages, man. Talk about getting your mindset on. One one of the things I say too, uh, again, not changing topics, but I always talk about the competitive engine, right? And how younger teams have this, it's it's a two-pronged problem. They have this belief that, oh, as soon as the game starts, I can just turn the competitive engine on and I'm ready to go.

SPEAKER_03 36:03

So true.

SPEAKER_04 36:04

And it's yeah, yeah, and that's that's that's not the case. I kids, if you're listening, uh you don't just step on the ice and you're ready to go. Or I should say it's very rare that that happens. And the kids that are ready to go, we're ready to go about 30 to 60 minutes before the game, right? And and learning to turn that competitive engine on, that is a mindset thing.

SPEAKER_03 36:26

That is something setting that environment of when that proverbial kind of like flip the switch happens, it means something different for everybody. But that that's why I love trying to get parents also involved with this because there are certainly things that help steer that, and there are definitely detractors that that you know, on that way to the rank, or even you know, earlier in the day, right kind of pull that away. But I I agree that they're getting that process is a big deal.

SPEAKER_04 36:59

I'm laughing because I think that everyone forgets, including me, from time to time. It's like these kids were in school most of the day, and it's like it's so easy for us as adults like schools, school's nothing, I have to work all day. Yeah, no, that that's true, but like the 15-year-old has a right to their 15-year-old problems, and it's not that school's like a horrible place, but when you're 15 and at school, you're 15 and school, there's a lot going on in your life, okay? You got the test, you got whatever's going on with your head, there's dating, there's everything. And it's like now you're coming to hockey, and we're just like, hey, hey, get focused, get focused. Well, you know, they might have had a breakup early in the day that you don't know about. Like, there's so much things that are going on, and that's why it's so important, Sandy, to your point that there's gotta be uh the shift, and you can teach that, right? Like, I one of the things that used to freak me out. I remember people telling me when I play, like my friends would come watch me play whenever, whenever, uh, at any point of my career, and I'd always hear you look like a totally different person on the ice, like your face is different, and it's like I kind of came to the realization, let's I am different. That's not that's not me like this. Like, I have turned the engine on, I'm in a different mode at that point. I mean it's me, but say it's just a different version of me, right? And the thing is, I learned that when I walked in the ranker, there was always a point I had to flip the switch, and by the way, I'm not saying I was a crazed maniac, I was just my engine was on, I was focused now on the game, and you can say that other things too. Go ahead, Sam.

SPEAKER_03 38:25

Wait, so here but here's something just a point I that I think is so important with that that flipping the switch, just like you said, is not about turning anything off, right? It's not about trying to shut out the day or the dramas of being a teenager, right? It's about turning on compete mode Lee or compete mode Sandy, right? And then helping them understand that their role is to stay in character. This is like a movie, they drink water in character, they in between whistles in character, the ego, right? And when that horn goes, that's that's when someone yells cut, but helping them understand what that character is. I have have this discussion all the time with with players. They they love the social media, they love the mic'ed up stuff, and they hear you know the guys and gals chirping back and forth. And I say, you know, like that though these like tough guys, like they're they're not walking down the street like slapping babies and kicking dogs. Like that's a this is an act, right? But that's the character, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:30

Um I think that's I think that's so I think that's so hard for us as coaches, right? To to because that's something you want. You want that edginess, you want that grit, you want that that per that player that plays on. It's a listen, let's let's just admit the fact that once you get to a certain level in hockey, it's a like any professional sport, it's a violent, uh, aggressive, chaotic, you know, chaotic experience. You are you are trying to win, and and and and some players are gonna go right to the edge of what you would deem legal or not legal or or or like okay, you know, a proper etiquette or not. But when you see that in a young player, you know, you you don't want to it's a it's a it's a line of like say like oh I want you to be right there, but you can't like there's some point where you just go on the line.

SPEAKER_03 40:22

I I I agree with you 100%. And this is this is this is like to this day, I think this is one of my biggest pet peeves in coaching, and I think this kind of speaks to to your point. I every year, right? Kids are kids and parents, younger people, very nervous about tryouts, nervous about the outcome. What should we do in tryouts? How should we act? And I always suggest to to you know uh um uh directors or whoever's running tryouts, what about at the tryout when it begins? What what if you tell everybody what you're looking for? Right, like what what kind of players you want? Like, because every this guy's this gal's thinking, should I be a puckhog today? Should I make the next right hockey play? This guy over here is like, should I be hitting every single person? So that's why I think like the more information identifying what all of these situations mean. I never see results go the opposite direction, like it always seems like you get the best out of everybody when we define things, help them understand what it means, and then attach specific verbs that they can just go out and execute.

SPEAKER_04 41:31

You know, Sandy, what's funny about what you just said is uh one of our most popular episodes ever, and it's a more recent episode. Sometimes the the older episodes have time to marinite and and and generate listens, but it was you know what coaches are looking for in tryouts, and the reason I'm bringing that up, coaches listening is because our audience wants to know, right? Like people want to know what you're getting into. And and here's the thing when you go to a job interview, and that's what a tryout is in a lot of different ways. Like, you know, you want to go in prepared, you want to know what you're interviewing for. You have a job description probably before you get there, and you prepare yourself for those questions. Just play hockey is not a great job description, right? And I think in addition to the skill sets, you know, we're talking about mindset, like character matters, right? Like I mentioned this, I recently had to pick a team of uh 11 skaters and two goalies from a pool of almost a hundred, right? It's it's a really Herculean task, all right. But at the end of the day, when it comes down to picking the team, and I and I told I told the players this throughout the year, because it was a kind of a year-long situation. I'm looking for character, I'm obviously looking for talent. I'm looking for character because when it gets down to the final 11, there's probably 30 players to pick for that final 11. All right. I'm looking for leadership, I'm looking for uh ability to be a great teammate. Why would we not tell that to kids? I'm looking for competition, like like there's I'm looking for you to be competitive. I don't hide that. Like I always have to say this because I don't want the audience to think I'm looking for kumbaya out there. No, I want you to compete. But there's a lot of elements that go into that, right? I'm looking for someone who understands what gratitude might be, right? Because that's that's by the way, that's a secret tool for big moments, by the way, if you want to learn how to turn on your engine. But it's it's a great point. And and again, when it comes to things, I said this with practice too. We do not spend enough time as coaches, and I and look, I can be guilty of this too. I'm not perfect at this stuff. We do not take enough time to explain the why we're doing what we're doing, okay, and what we're looking for, to your point. Again, um, the kids don't care, they do right. Like again, it's easier, it seems easier when they're older, but when they're younger, kids crave discipline, right? You know, you know what?

SPEAKER_03 43:49

You know, I didn't I didn't realize that when I first got into coaching, and Christy, this is why I asked you that question earlier. We were our facility, we trained lots and lots of players, uh, high-end players, but but you know, there was like six of us, all guys, and you know, a couple months in, we were like, why do we have no female hockey player? We have some amazing high-level boys here, and we we learned quickly that because we weren't speaking in a language, we weren't on the why side, boys were like very what phobic. Just tell us what to do. Girls, why, why, how is this piece? Yeah, and I I think when we learned that I know I can just say for me, when I learned that that communication piece from a coaching standpoint, it probably helped me in the rest of my life, also, like in my in the coaching, it seemed night and day, and it it goes to your point, Lee. And and there's just they want the information, but you know, they someone has to lead, and and I don't think it always has to be these high level skill sessions. I agree with what you said, Mike. Skill matters, talent matters, but it's a touch like overrated. At some point, everybody has talent. Like the difference is when when we get when we feel that fear, what do we do? Uh do we Do we keep going or do we turn around? And that's that's the end of it.

SPEAKER_04 45:20

Well, I want to throw this into um going. I wrote this down earlier. This kind of alluded to it. We Mike, you brought that great point about how schools teach, right? And it again, as coaches, I wish we would look a little bit more to how a curriculum uh kind of works. And I wrote this down. I said, you know, I'm a big history guy, all right. You know, history you have to teach somewhat chronologically because one thing leads to another, right? And I wrote down here, can you imagine if they did US history, World War II, Civil War, World War I, Gulf War I, Revolutionary War, Gulf War II, Vietnam? You'd have no idea what's going on. You would you would be so confused about why anything happened, right? So we don't do it in that, we do it chronologically, and we do it three or four times throughout the schooling, right? And each time you go a little deeper and a little deeper, and then you know the goal is that you're gonna come out of high school with some idea of US history. Obviously, that's not true for everyone, all right. You can but you can do this with math too. You can't teach algebra two and then division, it doesn't work, right? So there's a progression here, and there's also a why. You need to learn about the revolution and the constitution to understand how the civil war happened, right? They are they are connected, right? World War I and World War II are extremely connected. So when we approach coaching, again, I'm not trying to make this crazy, everything's connected. You you skating has got to be forefront. But with that said, mindset should also be forefront from a young age, and we build and we build. All right, I'm not gonna talk to an eight-year-old about the overtime game-winning situation where you've got to under like they're not ready, but I can talk to a eight-year-old about hey, the game's close right now. This is where we have to learn to not listen to some of those negative thoughts and step up. That's where it starts, right? All right, and and again, let's just make this pretty broad. This ain't limited to hockey, gang. This is this is every aspect of life, it's every youth sport, right? Our show is just about hockey. Um, and adults, we benefit from this too, right? I I would venture to say that look, I I love being inspired. I think my kids inspire me more than anybody. I think that's true for most parents, right? And Mike, your metaphor when the kid gets up and walks or skates for the first time, you feel inspired, right? And I don't know too many parents who go, I did that, I did that, right? No, it's like wow, they're they're growing, and and we throw that out the window as soon as they're they're a certain age, like, why don't you know how to ford what it's a power play? Dad, I'm six years old, it's a power play. All right, you know, I hear we hear things like that before anyway. I'm monologuing a lot of things.

SPEAKER_00 48:00

Sorry as to Sandy, and you know, so you look at what the current trends are, um, and there's a lot of confidence out there now with our kids, and you see it on these social media pages. I mean, I was going through my feed the other day, and I saw this nine-year-old with two million followers and uh sponsors, and everybody's encouraging. What's next? What's next? And it just concerns me too, and that you see parents out there too, just very um look at my kid, look what he's doing. That almost seems like there's now a concern of overconfidence, and that balance is kind of being lost right now.

SPEAKER_03 48:46

I I yes, I I think as we all know, there there's I don't know what the answer is for the cell phone debate. There's there's the digital, there's there's so many dynamics going on there. I will say this though, that I I think I think what parents I think the rem the thing to remember is that we're we're trying to raise humans, not highlight reels. Right? Raising humans, not highlight reels.

SPEAKER_00 49:14

Good for you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 49:17

I said that's that's that's what that's what we're trying to do. Yeah um but like again, I mean, hockey is just hockey is just the vehicle. Um, and at the end of the day, when the jersey, if this happens to everybody, when the jersey gets put up and everybody moves on to do other things, like what is the legacy? What's the legacy left for that individual that if they walk into a board room or anywhere, whatever they do in life, that you know, they they have that backbone, you know, because at some point somebody didn't block the bruise that built the backbone.

SPEAKER_04 49:56

You know, if I may one quick story, Sandy, based on what you just said, and um, I'm gonna I'm gonna gush about my son for a minute. I hope the audience doesn't mind that. Um, you know, over the week, last week, all right, my my son played in a tournament two weeks ago. I'm gonna try and reveal the story in a cool way. And on the league uh Facebook group, someone posted a video of an amazing save that he made. I mean, it really was an amazing the parents are it and it wasn't my team, it was the away team's parents, the the oppos opposition's parents, blown away by this save that my son made, right? And and they actually put it online and said, I don't know whose kid this is, but this is an amazing save. Okay. Um, so obviously the parents of the team that he's on tagged me and said, Lee, look at this, look at this. All right I go to my son, and I want I want I want to reveal this to the audience, right? And this is what I told my son, and I'll tell you why I said I said, I want you to see this because it's not that the highlight reel here, and this is what I didn't tell you. They lost this game 11 to 1. Oh okay, and it was in the middle of the game. And what I told my son was not look at this great highlight, I said, because of your character and your effort, and this was in the middle of the game, it was probably already lost. The recognition is on the effort that you put forth here. Love that. And I said to him that the cool part because he was really bummed about the loss, as as kids are. Yeah, and I said, but no one's talking about the score, they're talking about your effort. And I said, That's what shined through in this situation, and then that's what I planted. The that's what I want you to take away from this. That no matter what the score is, no matter what's going on in your life, that's what people see, right? And it's like, I could have just been, man, what an amazing save. You're so good, you're such a great goalie! Like, you know, and it's like I didn't even focus on that. And I'm not patting myself on the back, parents. I really, I really mean that. I was like, I'm so thankful that I had the opportunity to show him this. Yes, because he he was bombed, he was legit bummed after that game. He thinks I lost the game, right? That's how a lot of kids take it in, and now he has that seat of you know, your effort was noticed, right? I I shudder to think how many parents go, like, you were so good, you made it on Facebook. Oh, yeah, you know, I don't even I don't I I don't record any of my kids' games, and I I I don't have live bar, and people think I'm crazy, right? It it's like I'm focusing on the behavior. We talk about that a lot, right? His behavior, his effort. Yeah, like your behavior is what's helping you shine through. It's not just your talent. So you just reminded me of that story. I'm really proud of my kid. Yeah, thank you. Um, and you know, if my daughter's ever listening to this in the future, there's plenty for you too. I'll get to that. There's a lot of episodes, kids. Uh we'll get to that next season.

SPEAKER_01 52:40

I think that I think that goes right in the line, Steve, of what uh, you know, uh Sandy, of what you guys talk about about uh emphasizing, you know, separating your identity from the outcome, right? And I think what happens is like the the kids think, oh, you know, like parents do this all the time, that that like the your performance as the kid defines like who you are as a person. And it's so uh and I you know, see, and you see it in parents all the time. Like I actually just saw it this weekend where you know we are winning a game, the parents are all you know, everybody's the horns are blowing and everybody's having fun, and all of a sudden we lose the game, and it's like, oh, I'm embarrassed, I don't want to walk outside with my kids, and he lost, you know, you know, like no, but that's my point. Like it's like it's like they're like the outcome of the game defined like who they are as an individual. And it's just can you talk a little bit about you know how you approach that uh from your perspective and how your books approach it that you know we have to learn to separate the two because one has nothing to do with the other. Uh, you know, and and you know, what when you walk off that, you know, out of the glass, you're just you, you're your you're the person.

SPEAKER_03 53:45

I'm I'm not suggesting that a lot of these issues come from parents. I'm not suggesting that. I am suggesting though that environments matter. And um I think when things aren't made a priority or purposeful or intentional, again, when there is no way to base what is success, what is good, what is bad, what and what are the goals for today? And I'm not saying like a seven-year-old has to go out and have these crazy goals, but there there has to be purpose. And I think when that happens, and I think when and if parents remember what their role in this is, which like in the in the player book, like rule number one is have fun. Like that's pros, like that is the number one rule. And what you said though, from the parent standpoint is yeah, we're we're not defined by the performance, like it, and that goes both ways. We're not a bad parent if the kid doesn't have a great game, and the kid's not a terrible person if they have a great game. Hockey is is the activity that we're doing, and I love what Lee said by establishing those parameters away from the rink, celebrating the quiet moments, maybe how they treated a neighbor or a sibling, or they didn't quit, they were opening up something and they got frustrated and they were gritty, and all of those things matter. Um, so yeah, I see that a lot also. Um, I wish that parents remembered that they are always being looked at. They if kids hear everything, they understand tone. And what is the goal? Is the goal to have uh an NHL player that hopefully is a good person, or is the goal to have a great person that maybe can just maximize their potential in whatever it is? So I do think that parents play a big role in this, but yes, they they we are not defined by the kid's performance and how dare some parents I think make it be about that because it's you know that never works out well, ever.

SPEAKER_04 56:11

You know, I'll I'll say this, and we're actually getting close to time here. Um, one of the things I say to hockey players that actually jars parents sometimes, the way I say it, um, is I I don't know too many hockey playing kids that don't have that dream of making the NHL, right? That's a and it's a pretty normal thing, right? To want to be at the highest level. Um, and I've said this on many episodes. I never tell a kid not to dream. I will never tell a kid that's a stupid dream nobody ever makes. I I can't stand what people say, well, no one's going to the NHL. There's no value in you saying that. Okay. Like you're basically telling them not to try. What I do say somebody is, right? This is what I do. Why can't it be you? I tell the kids I want you to have big dreams. I love that you want to make the NHL. And then I say two things. And the second one is what jars parents. I say, you know, if you want to have a big dream, one, you have got to put in a lot of work, an incredible amount of work to do it. And then the second thing I say is, and there are no guarantees that it's going to happen. I said, you have to know that. There's no guarantee you're ever going to make it. You can put in all the work, do everything, and you still might not make it. And then I close it with this. But those of you that try will go so much further than those of you that won't. And that skill set will be applied to everything that you do. Because if you don't know what you're capable of, and none of us usually do, you won't make it. But to tell a kid not to dream is one of the most detrimental things I think you can say to a kid. And and parents, I understand where a lot of that comes from. You don't want them to get their hopes up, you don't want them to get hurt, right? You do know the odds are very, very poor. I we know that. But what is the value of not trying? What is the value of not dreaming big? What what what is the takeaway from that? What kind of person are you creating where when the odds are almost impossible, you're just telling them don't even try? All right. And again, you can apply that to whatever you want. Every family's in a different situation. All right, I'm being very generic here. All right, like I don't want to get into people's financial stuff. Every family's got a different version. But when I look at the people who have really succeeded on this planet, a lot of them come from very little means. Or as one of my great mentors said, Dare to be great. I never he told me that at one of my lowest points in my life. He said, Dare to be great. And man, that really set me on a path. So I just want to say that, right? Like that's an actual item you can take to your kid. Dad, I want to play in the NHL. That's great. You got to work hard, there's no guarantees. But if you try hard, you'll go a lot further than if even that, Lee.

SPEAKER_03 58:46

I know it's even that though, even just the way you answered that, that is what I think so much of I think parents can do is sh is reframing and shaping thoughts, right? Like not engaging in the the world just ended, you know, which is the car ride home, but like moving it to well, you know, what what what how did we want that to play out, right? And like all of a sudden, we're now problem solving, not problem reporting.

SPEAKER_04 59:14

Well, it and the equivalent, just to bring a smile to everybody's face, uh, is when you're watching football and your team's down two scores with uh seven minutes left in the fourth quarter, and you're the fan at home going, it's over, this game's over, we're gonna lose. Game's over. You know, turn the TV off then if the game's over, but you keep watching, right? Because something in you wants to see them come back. And I'll tell you right now, if your football team quit at that point, and sometimes they do, the game's over, right? The bills yesterday, that was they had some help in the bag, but that's yeah, that's that's but we don't watch the sports because it's over early. You you watch because you don't know, you don't know what's possible. That's the majesty and magic of sports, that the miracle can happen. But if you don't believe, what's the point? So, parents, I'm saying this. If you're that fan and you know who you are, that you quits on your team when it's late, you know what? The odds are absolutely in your favor that you're gonna lose that game. Don't get me wrong, but this is no different than the NHL thing I just said. The odds are absolutely correct that you're gonna lose this football game, most likely. But if you keep watching, you're hoping. All right, if you turn it off, I can respect that. Game's over, I don't care what happens. Yeah, actually, I can't respect that. Let's not talk about it. All right. Uh, Sandy, this has been an amazing hour for the audience listening. Uh Sandy's gonna join us for a ride to the ring, so make sure your kids listen to that. Um, literally has written the books for them. Um, but Christy and Mike, did you have anything else you wanted to do before I close this out?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:42

Everyone's gonna remember the tree analogy, you know, confidence and love and belief. That is, I might I feel like I'm just gonna go out and plant a tree today, just right in front of my my front window front door.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:55

Yeah, Christy, it's 12 degrees outside. You can't try it, you can't plan a tree today. Yeah, you can do it inside if you want to do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:01

That was very inspirational, Sandy.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:03

Yeah, thank you guys for the opportunity. You guys are doing great stuff. I appreciate it. Yeah, Mike, you're smiling. You got something to say.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:09

Yeah, it's all good. I mean, this is a it's a it's a very uh it's it's it's I I I'm looking forward to flipping through the book and uh sharing some passages for sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:18

Yeah, Sandy, this has been great, buddy. And and for the audience listening, remember that the mental side of the game, the mindset. If you're serious about your kid succeeding, this is something you've got to be serious about. There are plenty of resources. Obviously, check Sandy out. Mentaledgehockey.com. That's a pretty cool website. Uh, and his books 99 rules every athlete needs to know, 99 rules every sports parent needs to know. They're available on uh his website, mentaledgehockey.com. They're available on Amazon. Go to the website, help the man out. Go to the website. I always tell people that. Uh, but really, just great quick reads for everybody. But Sandy, thank you again for joining us today. Thank you guys. Yeah, um, that's gonna do it for this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. If you got a question for Sandy, question for us, you can email us, team at our kidsplayhockey.com. Or as always, in the show notes accompanying this episode, there's a link. Click it. You can just text to us your name, who you are, where you're from, your question. A lot of our episodes spawn from thoughts from the audience. We don't always tell you that because some people want to remain anonymous because they have the same problems that you do. But every once in a while you'll tell us who you are in the situation. We love that. But for Mike Vinelli, for Christy Catch in a burns, for Sandy Cohen, I'm Leah Lyas. We'll see you on the next Our Kids Play Hockey. Take care. We hope you enjoyed this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or our website, our kidsplayhockey.com. Also, make sure to check out our children's book, When Hockey Stops, at When Hockey Stops.com. It's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much for listening to this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey, and we'll see you on the next episode.