Mental Fitness and Hockey with Stanley Cup Champion Hockey Dad Tom Chorske

SPEAKER_02 1:23

What's up everybody? Got a great episode today with Tom Cortsky. We had him on a few episodes ago. If you haven't seen that, check it out. Guys won the Stanley Cup. He is a pretty well-known name in the game, especially if you're from Minnesota. And we're really tackling the issue of mental fitness, mental health, and hockey uh today from multiple fronts. Uh, everything from depression to uh just kind of how to manage players on a team as a parent, as a coach, as someone else's, apparently not the parent of another kid. Uh, it's a bit of a long conversation, so you might want to consume this one in two parts, uh, but it's really, really good. Just so many nuggets of wisdom in this one from really the entire uh crew here today. So check that out. Also, if you're watching this, uh, it's still not quite the holiday yet. So you got some time, head over to our kidsplayhockey.com, check out our holiday deals. Again, we aggregated together a bunch of deals for uh teams, for individuals. If you're looking for a late stocking stuffer with some pretty cool discounts for you, uh uh, you know, from our team. So if you want to support us, follow us, subscribe to us, share us with friends. That's number one. You also want to support us uh a little bit different, check out our kidsplayhockey.com and see those deals, and uh, it's a great way to support the show. With that said, you are a fantastic audience. We cannot thank you enough. We grow every week. I'm so thankful for you. I really genuinely mean that. And I really hope you enjoy this episode with Tom Chorsky and the crew on our kids play hockey. Here we go. Hello, hockey friends and families around the world, and welcome to another edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. I'm Leah Elias and I'm joined as always by my good friends Mike Benelli and Christy Cassiano Burns. And we have Tom Chorsky with us back again today because we've got a very uh important topic today. We're gonna be talking about mental health and mental fitness with kind of the older age group, that 12-year-old up uh uh section of the audience that we have today. Now, with that said, if you are under 12, if your kids are under 12, this is still gonna be a really powerful episode for you because your kids will be over 12 before you know it. And this is gonna be a lot of great stuff to help you out. I'm sure some of it will apply to the younger age groups as as well. But Tom, I'm gonna throw it to you again. We're we're talking about mental fitness. One of the things you said uh prior to the episode that really hit me is you you've seen this as a player, and now you're experiencing it as a parent. And I think that gives a really well-rounded view on this. But talk for a few minutes about why we're doing this episode, right? And and why this is an important topic we need to cover.

SPEAKER_03 3:43

Well, I think first and foremost, this is a topic that has been um covered more and more and better and better. And I think we're in a much better place than than we were as a sport and and maybe hopefully even as a society, uh, even two, three, four years ago. Um sadly, I think we still see athletes that um choose to take their own life, and and usually it's connected back to um somewhat related to their sport, or they at least they're athletes, and and and oftentimes you don't know exactly what was going on, right? Because um this the story is is often told by parents that they had no idea. But um the you know, the reason I think the reason that we need to keep talking about it, and and like I said, teams and organizations and leagues have been doing a much better job, but it's just something that's it's it's really hard for for young people um and and athletes, and they get a lot on their plate and they're super passionate about their sport, whether it's hockey or gymnastics or cheer or whatever. And you know, we all get really passionate about these activities that we're in, and then sometimes run into, you know, either a coach who seems to be making it um harder through the way they communicate or the way they um act and things like that, or teammates and it's just so there's a lot of elements to it, and I think that's why it's such such a complex issue, but it's it's also like anything, I think the more you talk about it and make it a little more normal, especially for young people, because they have the they're the ones the hardest, you know, teenagers don't like teenagers don't like to talk about their their um you know their insecurities and their vulnerabilities or their issues anyway.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

So yeah, I mean I I I've been finding, you know, and obviously social media plays such a huge role in all this, right? Because I can't even imagine as a player growing up, like I get anxiety now as a parent, seeing other parents and what they're doing, and just like, oh man, I I can't believe I'm not doing that with my kids, or wow, that's really like an interesting thing they're doing, or wow, am I missing out on all those extra sessions or that that tournament the kids went to? Or like I and I'm I think I'm pretty based in reality and I get anxiety from it. Like I I can't even imagine what a 14, you know, 15-year-old boy or girl feels, because it's just because we're not and I don't know if we do a great job equipping them either to deal with that, right? I mean, I think growing up, like your parents would give you the you know, the speech and and and or you know, just talk to you about being confident and and yo, you know, there was there was never that pressure of keeping up with everyone, I didn't think. Um, but now it's it's like a uh like I've I feel so I I think I I feel so lucky for the people that don't have any social media impact at all. Like people don't even know what's going on, like because it's just they're they're more, you know, it's just a a little bit more it's not naive, but at least they're they just they're not jaded in any way, right? You're just like, I don't know, just this seems abnormal to think this way about your kid. And then now you think about a 15-year-old, it seems abnormal to think like, well, what do you care about what other people think? Well, I care because the 3,000 people not didn't like my post or or didn't or didn't not like it, you know, or whatever, whatever the way they they read those are. Right.

SPEAKER_04 7:07

Right. And and you're so right, Mike, because the bullying has really changed. Um, you know, it used to be in the schoolyard, right? Or in the hallway or the cafety area. Now it follows the kids home. You know, it's on their phones, it's on their social media accounts.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Um, and the bullying's different. I mean, that's what that's what Tom's saying, too, with the mental health, right? At least with somebody who's bullying you, you punch them in the nose. I mean, you know, just you got it over with it. Okay, get the one. And that was it, right? Get the bag of peas out of the freezer and throw the steak on your on your eye, and yeah, you got it over with. But now it's like it's a constant flow of bullying. It's like, and I don't even think it's bull. Like I honestly, I don't even think some kids even think it's bullying. I just think they think it's normal. It's like of course you're gonna like belittle somebody because that's just normal.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

Well, look, um like I'll say this too. Like, everyone's brave when they're behind a computer. Yeah, yeah. This is this is not limited to kids, right? Uh, go to any NHL fan group online and they'll tell you how the team should be playing, and they know because they've watched the game for 25 years. But uh yeah, look, I think we're making a great point here that the tides have changed here. Now, going back to mental fitness and mental health, um, Tom, as you put it, uh, I think I I call it we're in the band-aid phase where people are kind of aware of it. It is a serious issue. People know, oh, we we got to pay attention to this, but we're in the let's put a band-aid on it and we'll fix it. Um, and the truth is this is that it's it's not so much an open gaping wound as much as it is you have to protect your mind like you protect your body. That's kind of my my mission in uh in terms of this space is to help people realize and then to assist them of you must take care of your mind like you're going to the gym to take care of your body. If you stop working out, you will get out of shape. If you are not constantly working on your mind, uh, you will get out of shape. Um, and I think one of the, and Tom, I'm gonna throw this back to you, you know, we talked about the overwhelmingness of high school and college. I think one of the misuminterpreted or misunderstood parts of mental fitness is that it's not something you get or you achieve. There are times you're gonna have it, and there's times you're not gonna have it. And again, this is true for everyone. This is not limited to hockey players. This is human, this is a human thing. So I just think it's important we realize that it's not about just getting your kids, because that's what we're talking about, to a good mental state. It's teaching them the tools of how to consistently maintain a good mental state. Or if you're out of a good mental state, here's the ways to get yourself back into kind of that that area, right? We're not doing enough of that. And that's that's where I think the space needs to go. And again, when the in the overwhelming world of high school and collegiate hockey, um, I I think this is becoming more of a topic, but we're not where we need to be now.

SPEAKER_04 9:57

And here's the thing we talk about high school and college, but I think those are concepts you have to now introduce to your kids at a younger age.

SPEAKER_02 10:04

I totally agree, Christy. Yeah, I totally agree with that.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Yeah, it's a workout. I think it's a workout. Like, you know, Tom, I'm sure like when you, you know, I mean, imagine you now being a player in the NHL and and having all this access. Now, some and I'm sure there's some uh of the players that now have grown up with it, maybe it's maybe it's easier for them. Like, and I and I and my understanding is there's so much work that the NHL does, or any professional sports franchises do for their players, right? To prepare them for this type of thing. We and you know, obviously they trip up and there's a lot of mistakes, but you know, there's definitely like so you think about what the NHL clubs do for their players, like maybe that's something we need to do for our youth kids. Like maybe that that's got to be something built into the way we develop our organizations if we're actually developing the whole person and their mental health. One of the pieces of their mental health is not only can't we have coaches berating them live, but they also have to know that what happens behind the scenes and how do we as coaches, you know, look for that and understand it. Because we see them a lot, right? We get to see the kids in in situations that maybe parents don't get to see them in, in locker rooms or in social settings around their teammates. So maybe, you know, maybe we have to be trained better to look for those signs.

SPEAKER_04 11:23

Yeah, I think that's an important point to raise, but because you're right, you see the kids in different settings than we as parents see them. We might not pick up on some of the signs that you can pick up on, whether they're withdrawn, uh, you know, they're not participating as much as they used to, their behavior has changed, and they might be able to pretend with parents that everything is fine because we don't see them in those settings, but you guys do. I mean, that's good.

SPEAKER_03 11:53

I think I think that's I think there's a lot of truth to that. Kids will kids will always present to their parents, you know, when they're especially they're older, and and they'll they'll present to their parents that everything's fine.

SPEAKER_04 12:05

Everything's fine, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:06

You know, and and and they don't mention, like we said, there's there's been a lot of things here. My brain's been been sort of spinning around here. But you know, Mike, when you mentioned, like I can't imagine these days, even you get anxiety, but what I what I see there is that you have awareness of it, you're aware that you are feeling a little bit of you're it you know, not stress or anxiety, but it's it's I don't know, you're you're aware that you're having thoughts and comparing, you're comparing or whatever, you know, you're wondering.

SPEAKER_00 12:40

Well, and then honestly, sometimes it's jealousy. Sometimes like, man, I wish I could have done that. And then it's like it's like when your neighbor, you know, has their nice yard and you're like, damn it, you know, I gotta stop going to hockey practice. You know my deck's going on.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

I have no thought that, Mike, just so you know.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Now you're seeing it around the world, right? It's not just your neighborhood. Like you're not just you're not just in that little neighborhood of saying, Oh, wow, I really like that. That guy got a really nice car. I wonder how he did that. But now it's like you see everybody. Like there's there's nobody that's not your neighbor.

SPEAKER_03 13:10

But you're aware of it. You're you're aware that you're having these sort of thoughts. I think the younger you go, kids will they'll have feelings and emotions, but they're not aware of maybe why it's happening because they're they're clicking through their social media and they're spinning through it and they're seeing things, and they don't have the they don't have the conscious, you know, thought, like, oh, I'm starting to feel um jealous or envious because of what I'm doing. And you know, we we can as adults, we can we can um process that, I think. Um, you know, another comment about having, you know, maybe some counseling or professional help at lower levels. I will say I think more and more pro teams are making it available to the players. They'll have a a sports performance coach or a mental performance coach, I think is maybe a term instead of just a sports psychologist, which implies that you know someone needs a psychologist to get their get their um you know their mind right, which isn't usually always the case. Uh, I think that's another thing is normalizing, you know, that you do go through slumps and that's hard as a hockey player, or you made a bunch of mistakes and now you're getting scratched from the lineup. And yeah, that that puts a lot of a lot of um anxiety and and which can lead to depression. And there's a whole there's a whole host of things too, right? That that um the mental health umbrella covers. Um, we usually think of it as depression, right? Or maybe stress and anxiety, but um, there can be other um types of of you know, I think mental health uh elements. So um I I do like the idea though of introducing it a little bit younger and having some people talk to players. We have a we have a division three coach in Minnesota, um, Coach Mark Wick is his name. He and he he got to a point where he he contemplated suicide. He was very close. Um, he had a basically an emotional breakdown. Fortunately, his wife was a nurse. And for about the last probably three years, I mean, he finally just said, Hey, I have to step back from hockey and get my I have to get healthy. And then ever, and then ever since that, he went through, you know, he went through some counseling and he kind of got back to a place where he decided that yeah, he was no longer, you know, suicidal and had a lot to live for, which he did. He was a wonderful guy. And since then, he's been going around and talking to teams around mid the Midwest, and maybe he's even gotten on some planes. Um, and it's he's not he he wasn't really an expert, except that he went through it. And he has he says, I will show I will show up anywhere and talk to any team because it, you know, like like all of us, it breaks his heart if he if they find out. I mean, he has done some research, and he'll say he'll talk to the players and say statistically, you know, out of you 20 players, there's four or five of you, or whatever that you know, the number is that will experience, you know, a mental health crisis. And so I know it's being talked about more and more, and we've got some organizations that are are um or spurred on or you know, brought on by unfortunately by hockey players that did take their life at you know in their teens or um maybe 20 years old is another player that I'm aware of. So um it's it's it's something that's being addressed, but there's a whole host of of things that um it's not an easy, it's a complex, you know, situation.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

Yeah, Tom, I'm gonna jump into with a few kind of actionable items, maybe for our audience a little bit here. So great. Uh, you know, a few things about depression and suicide. One is for every parent out there and every teammate, every person, suicide awareness is something that should be on your radar. Um, almost anyone, everyone, excuse me, that commits suicide or attempts suicide is showing signs that they are going to do it. These are these are facts that I'm giving. I'm not just making these up off the top of my head, but most give signs, most want help and are asking for help. And the most direct way to help someone if you think they are considering suicide is to directly ask them if they are considering suicide. Now, this is a very hard thing to do, all right, for a lot of people. Um, I've actually gone through training for this, and it's hard in a scenario where you're just acting it out, much less it being real. Um, but if you're a parent or a teammate that thinks someone is in that place, the best thing you can do is ask them and then understand that it's not your responsibility at that point to quote unquote fix them. Uh, it is your responsibility maybe to lead them to someone that can help. All right. So that that is kind of very quickly Suicide Awareness 101. If anybody listening wants more on this, feel free to email us. I can send you to a to a lot of different resources. Um, now let's talk about depression that can lead to that. Um, we find this, and I find this with with all the work I've done with the military. Depression is uh prevalent when three things are missing identity, purpose, and community. When you lose one of those three things, it can be hard. If you lose all three, you are gonna be in a tough place because as humans, we're not meant to operate without those things. And again, identity, who am I? What is it that makes me who I am? Um, purpose is this is why I'm driven, and community is these are the people I'm driven with. Um, we all need that in some form. Tom, you brought up community before and having conversations and communication. I always say the key to alleviating burnout or alleviating depression or any kind of uh anxiety is to talk with other people that are experiencing it, to realize, hey, I'm not alone and there's other people going through it. Too often we're looking for answers or the answer, and we all experience anxiety and depression and everything so differently that it's so hard to pinpoint here's the answer. But community communication that is a big key to alleviating some of that stress and at least walking forward. Um, now again, identity, purpose, and community. One of the problems I see in youth hockey, and this is where I want to dive into, um, is we have a lot of players identify as I am a hockey player. And if I'm not a hockey player, what am I? And that is a very dangerous identity because you will not get to play the game forever. It doesn't matter who you are. Now, I'm not saying hockey isn't part of your life and it's not a major purpose, and it's not a part of who you are, but I've always said this as I get older. I one of the biggest days of my life when I was when I realized, hey, I don't have to play hockey, I choose to play hockey. And then I said, Well, who am I? And at the time it was, well, you know, I want to be a good boyfriend to my future wife, you know, as I've gotten older, I want to be a good dad. Like these are the things that I identify. I want to be a good boss and manager, a good person. That's how I identify. It's not a holier than thou thing in any way. That's me, right? So I think that when you identify with something, especially a game, that 98% of the game is out of your control. Uh it's a dangerous place to be. Uh yeah, I'd love to get your thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_03 20:14

Yeah, well, I think just talking about those three elements would be helpful for a young person, right? You know, a young player, just for because you know, now you're breaking it down for them identity, purpose, and community. Right. And, you know, I've lived that. Uh, I didn't have these three things to ponder when I was playing, and it's been a long time since I played, but I can tell you that when I was playing, I when I was struggling mentally and was in sort of some dark places that, you know, say I'm in a slump and I'm getting scratched from the lineup, or I get traded from a team because I wasn't performing, and some other team's willing to give me a chance. Um, that's where, you know, that's all of a sudden, yeah, I'm in a new situation. So I don't have my community, maybe, although my community would be my family. Right. But but but you know, maybe you kind of in your head you think, but they don't really understand what I'm going through. Um, you know, purpose. I remember feeling at times like you know, do I am I not enjoying hockey because I'm not good anymore, or am I not good anymore because I'm not really passionate about it and enjoying it. And so wrestling with that. So that's a that was I was literally struggling with my purpose too, right? Like, and my identity when you retire, um, you know, I guess it it's a different we talked about before we got on, is just how everyone's contextually everyone's situation is a little bit different, right? And like for me to talk about it um would be different than a a a player that played through high school and then had to quit, I suppose. But maybe it's all relative. But when you are so passionate about a sport, and you can be when you're you can be when you're 12 or 15 or 18 or 30, right? Like me. And you get done, it's so ingrained in you, and it was so good to you, and it was the best times of your life, and it served you so well. It really, it really is part of your identity. And I know people say it's not who you are and what you do, and I'm just gonna say that's easier said than done.

SPEAKER_05 22:15

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 22:15

It's great, it's great in theory, but you can tell that to a pro athlete probably 10 times, and but then when they walk out the door and they're you know in in the quiet moments of their life, they're they're they're wondering, like, how do I how do I break free from that identity?

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Right.

SPEAKER_03 22:35

Because it is all I know, but I I I've seen it, you know, I I know I've I have two kids playing college hockey, right? Clearly, to get to college hockey, they were super passionate about the sport, and I can tell you from watching them grow up and and you know, tons of success, tons of social relationships. They had the good camaraderie with their teammates and they're in their locker rooms, and they were part of you know, high school championships, and and the fact that they got to college means that they kept going and they kept having success. And so um they they are very passionate um about their sport and then they've got school and they have to to focus on that. And that's very important. And so it's it's easier said than done to break that identity. But I want to I do want to get back and compliment you and reiterate just putting that out there that three things are present or lacking when it comes to mental health, I think is is really good help for whoever's watching this. They can write down these three things. And then now they've got some concepts to think about, either you know, for their for their their kids or their young players.

SPEAKER_00 23:45

Yeah, I guess that's my point from an organizational leadership standpoint, then, right, Tom, because what Lee's saying, if identity, purpose, and community, are we doing this in sport, not just hockey, because I've been around it, all of it, but aren't we, aren't we putting kids into having to have an identity, a purpose and community when they're eight years old, when they're nine years old? Like most people like when you that all that kind of stuff that you can you can handle like when you're you can handle better when you're a teenager and uh and an adult and a young adult and a an older adult. But for a nine and 10-year-old, that they are their identity, their purpose, and their community is their hockey life. Yeah. Or their or their tennis life. Or their and and the few people that make it through, I think we all look at them and say, well, look at that person. They did okay. Yeah, but that the the there's 3,000 kids that didn't. And and uh and us as parents, it's our and I guess that's where you know, going back to that original conversation, like that that's why coaches are so important sometimes and leadership people in these sports are so important. And and we're giving, we're we're putting them, like we're putting our kids in their hands because like as a parent, you're blind. Like you think your kids is that person that's gonna make it to the NHL. Like, you know, I you know, and as many, I've talked to you know, thousands of families. Oh, no, no, I want my kid to have fun. You know, you know, it just wants it has to be fun. I just want to be in a great environment. But then they do the they do the exact opposite of what they're looking for in in this. They're they're looking to they're identifying. They go back to the office, they identify as a triple A hockey parent. They identify their their purpose is to, you know, the badge of honor that, you know, I did four days this week of 5 30 a.m. practices with my nine-year-old.

SPEAKER_02 25:27

Okay, well, that's okay. I mean, it's about actual badges for that, Mike.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

That's yeah, because if that's your passion, but if that but if your whole passion at eight and nine years old and then that's taken away at 12 and 13, I mean, imagine if the highlight of your hockey life was nine. Like at nine years old, you won this and that, and went to this tournament and you know, did all this and went to those camps. If that was your highlight, that's where I feel bad. And only because I see it, again, if I was in a, if I was, if I wasn't, you know, if I was in a fishbowl and I was only around my team and my my age group, but when you're somebody like, you know, what you're doing and Lee, and obviously Chrissy's been there, you know, through all of this, you know, with her kids and seeing all the kids that made, you know, made it or made it mentally through this quagmire. I think a lot of it has to do with how we we set up programming. I think it a lot of it has to do with the way the people that are leading the sport put these kids in a situation where we're demanding, you know, identity, purpose, and being a part of my community way, way too early. And we're not leaving any room for them to find that on their own.

SPEAKER_04 26:36

And I think that's where the parents come in. I mean, you've got to take control there, mom and dad. You know, don't let that happen to your kid. There's a lot of pressure to do that, though.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

There's a lot, there's there's it's so hard for a parent to say, because they don't want to be the parent that says, Oh, I just want to have fun. And all the other parents are like, What are you crazy? You can't have fun. This is hard work. Like, if you want to make it, you need to do this.

SPEAKER_04 26:58

Yeah, I've seen that pressure, but um hopefully it's yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:03

Well, Mike, I think Mike, Mike made a couple other good points there. And and we have to have categories, right? So there is gonna be triple A and double A and in Minnesota, you you are Pee Wee double A, that's your top level, Banham double A. Um, and then there's triple A in the summer. And so I think, yeah, to a point to parents, if your kid is what you know, it seems like the lower you are, the less the parent is gonna be, I guess, you know, identifying with with their hockey player or athlete, uh, if they're just sort of average or a little above average, but if you get to that top level, then as you mentioned, a lot of people take a lot of social status uh from that. And and and yeah, we're proud of our kids. And I suppose the better they do, the more proud we are of them. But it I think it it would go a long way for for parents to try to, you know, not squash the kid's confidence, but you know, talk less about don't don't always be talking about them as a double A player, as a triple A player. Oh, Mike made triple A this year, and you know, because then the kid hears that and he starts that starts to be his identity, right? So parents can start sending the right identity messages of, you know, oh, you're a good brother, you're a good son, you're a good cousin, you're a good grandkid, you know, or daughter. And um, just if they had some awareness of of the identity you're building, a good student. Um, you know, there's other things about their identity that you want to that you want to enforce for sure.

SPEAKER_04 28:35

Yeah, you're absolutely that's you're absolutely right. So if you let's go into a rank lobby any day, the parents are trading their war stories. Oh, we you know drove seven hours in a blizzard. Oh, we didn't. They're not trading stories about, oh, my kid got uh 4.0 on his legs.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

Yeah, but see, you know what's funny, Christy? My father would do the same thing. Like, we listen, we drove. I'm listening I've driven a hockey tourist with my father as a kid, and I'm like out the window, scraping the front, like hanging out of a car window on a highway, scraping the snow for him, right? Because he's like, We can't see, we can't see, you gotta knock off the good old dude. And so, and then I look back and I go, that was nuts, but it was part of the great journey. Like, listen, I loved it. My father loved it, I loved that time. What I'm saying is there's nothing wrong with that either. I love hold on, hold on.

SPEAKER_02 29:25

Let me let me dive in here.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Maybe hanging out of the car.

SPEAKER_02 29:28

You guys are making a point that I don't think you realize you're making, right, Mike. So, so again, there's the war story in what you just said, Mike, but go deeper, right? And I don't want to I don't want to make it too emotional, but really, what did you love about that? It wasn't scraping the ice, you were with your dad together in a moment. That was that was your identity of the moment of I'm with my dad in a car and we're doing something together.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

Um, right. And this is why we keep going back to Tom's community where he is, yeah, because that community, although it's changing a little bit, right? There's a lot of there's a lot of roadblocks right now, but that that like I never looked at my hockey community as like above somebody else's. It just was mine. Like these are just my friends, these are the people I want to hang out with. Not like, oh, I can't wait to get through this community. So I can't even.

SPEAKER_02 30:16

It wasn't status for you. That wasn't a status.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

It wasn't, you know, and it wasn't like, oh, I'll drive into the game because I have to show that you know, I I got on, you know, we're we're the number 10th ranked team in the state or the county or in the town. So it but but the yeah, it was the whole point of it's not it's okay to be crazy, it's okay to be like saying, why would you you like would you really drive in a snowstorm to go to a hockey game?

SPEAKER_05 30:39

Well yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

Again, though, let's but it's where the mental it's where it's where it's like the anxiety part, like you have to do it because of a coach is gonna say, Listen, if you don't get your butt here, you're not playing.

SPEAKER_02 30:53

And yeah, I I gotta say this though, right? And in and look, I gotta bring ego into the conversation. I always tell people, ego is not always what people think it is, it's not just some, you know, oh, I got a big ego. Like ego can be a lot of different things. Parents, your kids are watching you. So to Tom's point, to everybody's point, if you get to the lobby, Christy, right? And it's like, man, we drove seven hours in a blizzard, and I did all this. Well, how is your kid interpreting that? And I'll tell you what, here's here's a really unbelievably, and I don't care if this gets groans, a really quick thing you can add into that that totally changes the conversation. We drove seven hours in a blizzard. It was horrible. Mike was out the window scraping the car. But you know what? I was really thankful to have that extra time with my kid. You've completely the conversation for your kid if they're listening to wow, dad or mom was just happy to be with me. And again, they're not gonna say that to you. They're not gonna turn, like, oh shucks, dad. I love it that you wanted to be with me. They're not gonna say that to you. But that's that's what they hear it, right? Because I'll tell you, and again, I was very, very blessed in this regard. I always felt safe at home. Good game, bad game, anything in between. I got to play at a high level. I never feared going home to my parents in the fear of being judged by them as a hockey player, because I never thought that that's all I was to them. And parents, I don't think any parent, to be fair, means to do that to their kid.

unknown 32:18

Right.

SPEAKER_02 32:18

But if you're not, Tom, to your point, conscious of how you're identifying, yeah, right, odds are they're picking up on that. Well, my my my dad is so proud of me for being a triple A hockey player. And if I don't succeed at that, you guys listening, carry that conversation on your head. I'm gonna say this again. I don't think any parent, or I should say most parents, have no intention of doing that. But you gotta be conscious, you gotta wake up to identity, purpose, community. Tom, you said it earlier, you gotta be conscious too. What am I feeling right now? When I work with the eight-year-olds, a lot of my work is tell me what you're feeling, identify the feeling so you know what that is. That's sadness, that's regret, that's anger. I want you to know what these are so you can learn to control them. And I don't want you to forget how to feel. That's another thing. You know, we'd say, Don't cry, don't do this, don't be angry. That is bad advice. Be angry, identify that you're angry, and then learn how to control your anger. You're going to feel when you bury your feelings. It's like bottling up gas. It's gonna explode at some point.

SPEAKER_03 33:24

Yes, right.

SPEAKER_02 33:25

Right? So, Tom, go ahead. I can feel it.

SPEAKER_03 33:27

Yeah, no, I I think I think you're absolutely right. You touch on that sometimes we're trying to squish, squish down these emotions, you know. I just just let it go, let it go. And I've tried saying that to my my kids at times, let it go, don't, don't dwell on it. But um, you're right. I think it's important to feel those emotions and and that those are real human experiences, and it's okay, it's normal. It's not it's not abnormal, and there's nothing wrong with your brain when you are frustrated or depressed or anxious or stressed out, that's that's that's normal. Um you know, another thing, community, uh the hockey community is so great. You know, I I was thinking about the the when you guys are talking about the lobby and things like that. And you know, there are times when uh you don't play well or you don't play a lot, you know, certain teams if if the coach does have discretion to sit a player or sit a line, you know, you're on the fourth line and you don't play a lot. But um there are some wonderful parents in that hockey community when you come out from the game, you know, I I can remember parents coming over, you know, the non-parent parent that came over to a kid and said, hey, hang in there, keep, you know, keep up the good work. Uh, and that's part of that community that can be helpful. So the reason I say it is just as if there's some parents listening and watching, if you're aware that you're not, you know, someone on your son or daughter's team is kind of getting the short end of the stick, or the coach is yelling at them because you're aware of it, or they're just not playing very much, or they made a big mistake. I think it means a lot for for a non-parent to walk over to a player and pat them on the back and say, Hey, you know, go get them next time or keep going or whatever. Because as a parent telling a kid, sometimes the kid's just gonna think, well, of course, my mom or dad's gonna say that to me. Of course, they think it's fine, and of course, blah, blah, blah. But it means a lot more and it probably could be a meaningful um comment made by a non-parent parent, if that makes sense. Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_05 35:37

It makes total sense.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

Yeah, isn't that kind of like that community, right? Like I know, I know a group of parents that I can that I can be around when their kids come out, and dad would be like, okay, we got to talk about this. Like that. And I could, I I and I'm confident in my community that I can step and be like, hey, let him go. Let me let him just get, you know, hey, he doesn't want to hear from you. And then he make a joke and they go, Oh, you can talk to him tomorrow morning and get on Live Barn and you know, break down the film. And just like you can help as a parent to another parent diffuse them a little bit too, right? Because you can't catch yourself sometimes. Like if you're a parent, if you have a really good friend or a per if you really are from a strong community and it's not about, you know, like to your point, Tom, I think that's such a great aspect because sometimes, like good or bad, sometimes the kids and the parents aren't getting that from the coach. Like they're in la la, like they're they're in, they're in like limbo. Like they don't know why the kid didn't play, or you know, not every coach has the opportunity to go down the bench and say, Hey, I know you didn't get a lot of ice time today, but I just want to know I really appreciate those two shifts you put in there, and this is what you did for us. Or, hey, wow, you're really you're really you're getting to a point where we're gonna start depending on you more. Or like it's hard for coaches to find those kids. It's easy to find the top six, right? And and always be talking to them. But it's hard to find the kid that has a good or bad shift. They sit, maybe they didn't get in the lineup, maybe the coach forgot them on the bench, whatever. And then and then the turnaround. So if you're a parent in the hallway, you can be in a great situation where like if you see a parent getting on their own kid, you can almost bring that person down to reality saying, wow, you know what, I love this back checking that on that on that shift. If he back checks like that, he's getting in the lineup. Like that coach is not gonna miss that. Like that's where, you know, that's where you can help diffuse these situations and make it, you know, I I I tend to use like sarcasm probably too much. Um, but it's like that's where you could kind of get in there and diffuse it a little bit for the parent. And most of the time, like our you know, the typical 24-hour rule, you wake up the next morning at breakfast and you and you forgot why you wanted to yell at your kid anyway.

SPEAKER_01 37:38

You're like, oh, this is the uh it takes a village, right? That's that's just the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 37:43

But you can but you can support, you could support because you know, like it's it's so easy as an outsider to see and feel the pain of a kid. Like you could see the kid, like, oh, he's getting beat up by his dad. And and you might have been, you might have just gotten done doing it with your kid. I don't know. But I'm just saying, if you have the ability to have a really strong community, that's a really great opportunity for you to step in there and be a peer and say, ah, no, no, let him go, let him go. His friends are waiting for him outside, and then maybe you can get the conversation going with that parent about, you know, whatever, how good their kid is. And oh, you know what? Did you hear that he's he he he led the team in cleaning up the locker room on the road trip? That's unbelievable. Like that makes us look great. Like, what a great, what a great thing. Like, I I'm I'm so proud of that as a parent when I when my kids' teams, you know, are there's kids on the teams that are being great role models. I want to tell those parents how great a role model they are for my kid. Like, even and then not not that they're the star player, they're just a player, they're a person on the team. Like, I've never understood how you could put somebody on a team and never play them. Like, I don't get that. Like, I don't even get as an athlete, like, man, how would you go to practice every day and you have zero chance of playing? Right? So to me, like, okay, well, then what is it that drives a kid to keep coming back? It's community. It's feeling like they're progressing, it's feeling like somebody values them. It's feeling like they understand, okay, I'm not playing yet, but this is my goal and this is how I'm gonna get there. If we can do that mentally for kids, at least now they can put the pieces together, right? It's not like a it's not like every single game you're counting the minutes of how much ice time you got. It's not a question.

SPEAKER_04 39:20

It's just a we are we agree.

SPEAKER_02 39:24

It's well put. No, one of the other things I want to talk about here, uh, Tom, is you brought up this before the show is uh not dogs barking, no, but um ambiguity. Um, you know, in that a lot of time the messaging, and this happens to parents, it happens to coaches, can be missed, mainly because of the way we're presenting it. Um, you know, I did a podcast not too long ago. I talked about communication. Um, and I I always give the example. You could be the best tactician on the planet, but if you can't effectively communicate those tactics, what's the worth of it? Right. So it's the same thing with motivation and mental fitness and mental health. You know, if you're trying to bring a kid up, uh, you got to be able to meet them where they're at and bring them up. You know, one of the common mistakes I I see is coaches trying to tell the kid, well, hey, listen, wait till you get older because you got to go to your work every day. And then it's, you know, you might have a spouse that's yelling at your kids. No, no 12-year-old cares, no 18-year-old cares, right? You got to meet them where they're at. They have a right to their 15, 16, 17, 18-year-old problems. You got to try and remember. Yeah, it's hard. You gotta try and remember what it was like for you and have some empathy and then communicate. And it just does not mean there does not need to be discipline. It does not mean there does not need to be um maybe a stern tone. Like, you know, I always when I bring this up to people, I just wait, what do you go? It's soft? No, there's just a way, there's a way you have to communicate. So, Tom, the question to you here is um, as a parent, as a coach, and as a former player, you know, what are some tactics uh or tips for for the group here to to do that?

SPEAKER_03 40:58

Well, I think you know, what the ambiguity typically comes from the coach. And coaches, as I said to you, will intentionally sometimes want their players to be in the dark. I'm talking kind of the higher levels now and things that I things that I experienced or things when I talk to pro players, or if I, you know, even in college, you know, coaches don't feel beholden to tell anyone anything, right? And I know you guys have done podcasts about that too, is where you know it's the parent is no longer, you know, part of the equation when it comes to the college hockey player. Um, and so yeah, it's it's you know, you can't go tell the coach, hey, could you be a little more clear and concise? You know, you gotta tell you, hey, you got to go talk to the coach and and try to get some sort of communication going because you're not getting any communication, or the communication you're getting is it's it's unclear, right? Ambiguity, and that's a terrible place to be for a player. Now, I will tell you this the higher levels you're at, the the coaches they've been through these conversations a million times, and they will continue to hold true to their philosophy. They'll talk to you, but they know how to have a conversation and not really say anything or make any promises because they don't want to be held to a promise that you're gonna play more. Like you can go say, I want more playing time or I want a bigger role, and they're not gonna just say okay, right? They're gonna talk to you and they might give you some feedback on how you can do that or why you're not doing that, but they just generally have a way of talking about it. So I think at the end of the day, the best thing um is to you know try and arm our our parents and our players with how to handle it, right? And there is so much uncertainty and ambiguous in general. Um, and and everyone wants certainty. You know, we all want our kid to, you know, go into a tryout and we'd love to know that he's gonna make the team, she's gonna make the team. Um, but that's just unrealistic. So, you know, the the best thing is, you know, that I think probably one of the old axioms that you hear is control the controllables. Um again, maybe maybe easier said than done, but when you really, but when you really um get down to it and you, you know, it becomes usually it's your actions or your effort and your attitude or your in your mindset. And those are the things you really can control. You can't control what you know the the puck's gonna do, what the your teammates are gonna do, what the coaches are gonna do. So um I do think that is helpful um to try and take that on. And then um you can you can also expect it to be unexpected, expect it to be uncertain, expect there to be ambiguity and just go, ah, there's that ambiguity we always talk about, you know, or you know, have to deal with and try and maybe make it um a bit of a a bit of a running joke, but it's hard. That's that's the hard part when you're so intense and you want to get in the lineup or you want to play more. And this is true for 15-year-olds and and 12-year-olds too, I suppose, because you're not always the coach isn't gonna always have the same, you know, penalty killer and power play. And you know, they tend to lean on their better players and and that gets frustrating. And but then the communication, if it's if it's not clear, if it's kind of foggy, then we're back to that ambiguity. And um, I don't know. I think that the best thing you can try to do is is learn how to learn how to handle it, or you can ask for more clarity.

SPEAKER_02 44:30

Tom, I'll tell you a quick story about that. Um, and it's a good one, you know, it's almost a paradox story to me. I know I knew a young man playing in the minors, right? Um, very, very talented player. Uh, you could easily say one of the most talented players on the team. Coach played him five shifts a game, and he could not understand it. But I give him credit, he was always mentally tough. And you know what would happen? He would score every game with those five shifts. So he got to a point of well, why isn't he playing me more? I'm scoring more. Coach kept giving him five shifts every game. Five shifts, goal, five shifts, goal. Well, the coach knew exactly what he was doing because he knows in that situation that that guy's gonna give his best for five shifts, and he might think that in a full game he's not going to. And the player obviously was upset. Goes, I want more shifts, but it was one of those situations. Again, this was the minors where they both understood what they needed to do. Uh, they won the championship together. The player was not ecstatic. The coach was ecstatic, but you know, the following season, the player moved up to a higher level. The coach won the championship and they replaced them. My point to you is this, people, is that you don't always have to like your role. Um, you don't always, but it's important to have a role. And that I don't think the communication was great, but they both had an understanding of how to do that in a way that would be conducive for the team. But it's not always going to be a perfect, it's not always you get what you want, right? That was an example of a coach understanding a player, at least from his point of view, and a part of the thing thought he was doing the right thing to motivate them. Right, right. And like again, whether I agree with that or not is irrelevant. Clearly, the uh the results were there.

SPEAKER_00 46:02

Yeah, so Tom, I mean, we talk about this a lot on the episodes, all like actually often about you know, preparing you know your player and your family for what teams you choose to go to, right? If you're if you don't want ambiguity, then don't go to a coach that you know doesn't communicate. Like, like if you know, I'd rather I I can't tell you like right now, this is the silly season for for me as like a hockey uh, you know, advice in my advisory roles with youth hockey parents, right? Because, oh, you know that team you told me not to go to? Oh my God, my kid is have is miserable. Like I knew, you know, we probably shouldn't have gone there. I know it's a higher level, but the coach he doesn't play as much. He's not playing as much as he did last year. The coach doesn't communicate with him. I'm like, well, I told you that though last year. The coach was that coach. Like, well, I know I well, I know, but they play, they play at a higher level. But what do you care? Your kid's not even playing, so they're not even being affected by the higher level. Like, to me, that's where your research has to come in, good or bad. Hey, listen, there, and there's other coaches that I've said, well, you knew what you were getting into. Like, yeah, I guess I did. I knew, I knew that this person wasn't going to communicate with me. Okay, then you knew that going in. So don't all of a sudden say, Well, how come the coach hasn't changed to me? Well, because that's you chose the coach. You know, there's plenty of programs, right? So I think that's one of the pieces. Now, can coaches be educated and do a better job of learning how and why the need is to communicate to help their teams perform? But just to uh Lee's story, you know, maybe they don't need to. I mean, uh, listen, depends on the line. As a college coach, I probably I probably played, I don't I don't want to even call it head games, but motivational pushes and pulls to make sure I, because I thought I knew my athlete. That athlete was pissed, but you know what? He's so pissed that he scored a goal. Or he's so pissed that he that he got the MVP of the of the of the weekend tournament, or he's so pissed that you know he he he drove his teammates to to drive, like a like a kind of a Herb Brooks, you know, short series philosophy. Like people are like at the time, probably like, oh, what an what an A-le this guy is, or oh, I can't believe this guy just doesn't want to, you know, he doesn't like us. Well, it doesn't matter. He found pushing buttons, right? And I think a lot of that's an art though. I think that's really you know, it's it's hard to do, or else everybody would do it. But I think I think if we fall on the side of let's communicate, let's express our feelings to our players, let's let them know where we stand, always I feel is is better than not, then silence. And I think that's just at the especially at the young levels, because let's face it, you're coaching the kid and the parent. It's a it's a it's a it's a team effort at 12 years old, at 13 years old, 15 years old, even 16 years old. The the kids are still living with the family. Like, so if you want to if you want to keep the dinner table from being against you, then get everybody together and say, well, this is why we're doing it. Now, you might not agree with me, which is fine. Somebody has to make a decision. I'm just letting you know how I feel about it. And then we can work together on how you can change my mind or I can change your mind. Whatever it is, let's just have that conversation about what it is. And I think then this, you know, this discussion about mental health that we have with our kids and the anxiety and not knowing and the uncertainty, that's what I think really affects teenagers, is I I just don't know. The coach just keeps telling me to work harder. Well, what the heck does that mean? Like, what does that mean he worked harder? I'm working, I'm working hard. I'm working hard. And and the coach say, well, you know what I mean is let me show you five videos where you pulled up, curled off, and did nothing inside the zone. Oh, okay. Well, that that's to me, that's so that that's something that's not subjective. That's like you're doing it or you're not doing it. Or, hey, let's discuss with mom and dad. Have you had the discussion with mom and dad? How you haven't been the practice on time in 16 weeks in a row, and yet they drop you off on time. So what are you doing? Where are you? What are you doing? Hanging out. You're not prepared. So let's have that conversation so that now mom and dad can look and go, Well, what the heck? He didn't tell me that. Of course he didn't tell you that. It's like my kid, hey, do your homework? Yeah, I did it on the bus. There's no way you did your homework on the bus. Like, how is that possible? No, I did it on the bus. And then you find out, you know, a week later he hadn't done his homework. So it's just a matter of have that conversation. The quicker you can have it, the s and and the and and and having it more often, right? Is is to me uh a right. It's a parent right to be able to say, okay, son, have you talked to your coach? Yes. Has he given you an answer? No. Have you asked him to meet with all of us? Yes. Has he given an answer? No. Okay, now I'm gonna intervene. Now we're gonna have a conversation together because I want my son to be able to communicate with me what he thinks and why he is in the situation he's in. Now, again, when you leave the room, it's not you must do what I want you to do because I'm the parent. It's I just want to I just want to understand what's happening so that I can coach my son or daughter to be the best athlete for you. And I think if parents approach that differently to coaches, they now become an advocate instead of an adversary. And then the coach is like, wow, if I could get this parent, if I could, if I really want to motivate this kid, I gotta get the parent on my side and help me motivate the kid. And that's co I mean to me, I don't know, that's coaching. That's that's the funnest part. Like that's the the greatest part about coaching is coaching.

SPEAKER_03 51:26

Right. There's a big divide though. You know, you're talking about coaches and and them being ideal, right? And and being open to that type of communication. And again, it's at different levels, it's there's different, I guess, uh philosophies about it. But um the hardest thing, yeah, is coach gets to be who coach wants to be, and he or she wants to keep an arm's length between um parents and maybe also, like I said, wants to keep a player guessing. As Lee was talking about, sometimes a coach will be hard on a player because they think that's what's gonna motivate them. Now that's a bit of an art form, and it's it's a higher level of coaching. Usually, you know, at the youth levels, it's just a coach who doesn't have faith in a player, he doesn't believe in him or her, and he's gonna try to, you know, short shift them or not play him as a few. It's easier to bury the player, right?

SPEAKER_00 52:21

It's easier to bury the player on the bench than coach them.

SPEAKER_03 52:24

Yeah, because they're not gonna get better in in the moment, typically, unless I mean, long term, yeah, you should play them and you should be willing to, you know, let them fail or let the team lose a game, more important than crushing a kid's spirit, but um that's just maybe not realistic. Uh so the you know, I just it it it's hard to it's hard to get everyone on the same page, but I do think to your point, I will say I do think coaches, it would go a long way if they would be a little more open to um um some communicating back and forth. I always think a coach can communicate to the could communicate sort of to the team in a mass email, here's what's going on with our team, blah, blah, blah. And it would keep the parents at bay a little bit, right? You don't have to, you don't have to put in the email why you sat, Johnny or Janie, um, and get personal or too detailed, but coaches don't want to communicate anything, it seems, a lot of times. And that leaves the parents in the dark. And and and I think sometimes coaches will also tell the kids, hey kids, just don't talk to your parents. And then we don't know that because the kid doesn't say coach told me not to talk to you.

SPEAKER_00 53:39

They just they just don't they just don't want to talk to you in the, you know, so well the best part is if you're a good art control, it's an art form too of writing an email directed at one parent that sounds like you're talking to all the parents because all the parents know who you're talking about. Like, you know, we should do as a team, we should do a little better job of not jumping up on the glass and yelling at the officials. Well, that you know, as a team, this will help us, you know, really, you know, uh so I think I think parents, listen, if you're on a real, if you're on a team, everyone knows what's going on, right? So it's just I think, but I think that that point, Tom, of coordinating an ability to say, listen, even if you just send out a generic email, something that just says, here's where we're at, this is what I love doing, this is what we're trying to do. And then at least the parents are like, okay, the guy's got a plan, at least. Now I might not like the plan, I think he's an idiot, but at least I know he thinks he has a plan. It's the one, it's the parents that once you allow, like once you allow the little opening, right? And then you get the the group of dads over here in the corner and the moms over here, and now you got the parents that are friends. Silos. And now all those little silos of people are saying you know, like all of a sudden it breaks down. And unfortunately, in my experience, you're seeing that earlier and earlier and earlier in the season. Oh, I told you. Sometimes it's like after the first weekend tournament, like, oh my God, what the hell did we get into? And it's it's September. You know, like, well, you know, but so instead, just like you know, you you might just be proactive as in the coaching staff. And and I think, and we've probably had this conversation on the podcast before, it doesn't even have to come from you. If you have an assistant coach that's a great communicator and loves writing emails, then let them be the communication person, let them be the conduit for you. Um, you know, or if you have a parent that is, you know, somewhat sane, a manager, somebody that's like like I've always felt that more people in your inner circle from a coach, especially at the youth hockey level, because everyone, you know, parents are the staff. The more people you have doing assignments with you and for you, the better it is for you as a coach because there's more people in the camp that can say, no, no, no, you gotta see what this guy's doing. Like he's really trying here, or no, no, no, he he wants to do this, but you know, maybe your kid has to come to practice once every four weeks. Like that will help him play. Like things like that where you get you get advocates on your side. And again, I'm talking about 12 to 15. And because we're talking about mental health, it doesn't what that's really where the breakdown occurs because let's face it, the whatever the parents are saying in the car is going back to the kid. And I think back to our original conversation, most of the time it's in Snapchat and it's privately. And the parents don't even know that the kid's getting, you know, like, oh my God, I can't believe your dad said this, or I can't believe you know your mom did this. Like, we're not even seeing those conversations as parents.

SPEAKER_02 56:24

I I I want to jump in with a few things, you know, just so like giving some tips to to parents and really coaches out there. So, number one, Mike, you you allude to this. We should say there's a definite breakdown between the levels. Like when you're in a pro environment, or I should say a paid environment, it's a job, right? And you're being paid to win. So I I feel that, and Tom, you can feel free to tell me if you agree or disagree with this, but pro coaches that succeed tend to have a high level of emotional intelligence. They know how to motivate players. Now, let's take it off the pros for a minute, because most of you listening are not coaching pro hockey, right? Which is fine. Uh, there's a lot of things you can do to get this on your team. We we talked earlier about, well, I don't know how that kid's motivated. I've heard that I don't know how to motivate that kid. Well, there's a really simple solution to that. Ask the kid how they're motivated. We we don't do these incredibly simple things. Well, they're not gonna answer me. That means the trust doesn't exist there. All right. You can find out a lot about a kid just by talking with them or asking questions. Does it motivate you when you're yelled at? First off, most of them are gonna say no. Guarantee you, a couple of them will say yes. I've always been shocked, but I've always had kids say no, I like it when you're on top of me, like and yelling at me. Like that motivates.

SPEAKER_00 57:41

I love the kid at the end of the at the end of the practice, like, you know, coach, you should skate more. I'm like, Really? Okay, let's do that. Let's do it. Like, I'm like, oh, that's so boring. Like, I don't want to skate you, so why why don't we do something different? Well, that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02 57:53

Like, like everyone's motivated differently. I know, I look, look, I I think about the failures of myself as a player in college and other levels, and it's a two-way street, right? I had coaches that I don't feel accurate aquately, accurately, adequately. That's the word I was looking for, knew how to motivate me. Now, at the same time, I wasn't really open to them because the way I was at that age. So this is a two-way street. But one is to just ask simple questions. What motivates you? What demotivates you? All right. You know, what do you want to accomplish? That's one. Number two is breaking this misconception. I can't speak for all coaches with this. I just, this is just my style. But there's a misconception that power and control as a coach come from not talking or withholding information, as I'm gonna keep this close to my chest because then I have one up on you. And in my experience, guys, that just breeds mistrust. It breeds silos and clicks, it creates problems. The best coaches understand you have to develop trust with everyone, players, parents, and the staff. And that can be done very early in the season. It's not hard to develop a rudimentary system of trust of I'm gonna communicate. And then you got to communicate. All right. I say this all the time. 10 out of 10 problems, all of them happen because of poor communication. There's absolutely other reasons for it, but bad communication will always breed problems. It doesn't matter the scenario, right? So so I'll give you a quick example, and Tom, I definitely want you to dive into this. Um, Dawn Staley, who is an NCAA championship coach, she is probably the greatest women's basketball coach in history. She is revered by coaches, men and women everywhere. I had the privilege to sit with her uh at the Philadelphia Coaches Conference, and she said something that shocked me. Um, because somebody asked her, How do you deal with the parents? And I was expecting her to say, Well, I just don't. This is collegiate basketball. And she said, you know what? The last few years I've flipped myself on that. I actually have a monthly Zoom call with all the parents to inform them, Mike, as you said, in a group environment, a team environment, here's what's happening, here's what we're doing, here's why we're doing it. And she goes, I openly communicate with them in that environment. It's not excessive, but I have that communication because and she said this, and this is what really hit me. She said, because it doesn't matter what I say. At the end of the day, they're going home to their parents or they're talking to their parents, and that's the biggest influence in their life. And I'd be crazy not to tap into that. She's so right. She is so right on that. Now, again, is it easy for her? I'm sure it's not. Okay. Does she want to do it? I'd say 99% chance, probably not. But she understands that that communication piece has to be there for the trust to exist between her and the parent, her and the player. And again, the work speaks for itself. This woman wins all the time. Like there's no, there's no way around that. She is the greatest at what she does. So I just wanted to share that. But Tom, I again, Mike and I are sucking up all the oxygen because we're from the Northeast. It's your turn to talk. I'm even going to mute my microphone.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:49

No, um, I I I love what you just said about Don Staley. I think I agree with that a lot. Um, and that's what I've been trying to get at, but I think it's it's asking a lot to flip the whole coaching culture, you know, uh one 180. Um, I'm a little pessimistic still and jaded when it comes to the way coaches are communicating because again, I've got in my peer group and friends and relatives and everything, uh, you know, I've got more friends and relatives that are playing at college hockey or pro hockey, and I've been through it, right? And I and I came from the old school way, so it was it was it was pretty barbaric at times, right? But um, I I do think the way you do that, the way she does those calls, you and and you said, does she like to do it? Probably not, no, but she knows that she understands how important it is. And I would guess that the more you do it, you know, you fine-tune it and you start to figure out the level of information which you are willing to put out there.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:51

Right. And again, give it all away, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:53

I think that, yeah. Yeah, no, she's not giving it a coach doesn't have to give out all away, just some really broad concepts of where the team's at, you know. And he's if you started saying, well, you know, we're really working on our offense uh this week because our scoring's down, or we're really working on our defense because we got to get our goals against down. Um, you know, our we our goaltending, if you look at the save percentage, it's been fine. So it's you know, the goalies are making the saves, but we're just giving up too many shots. Whatever. Like you can, and then all of a sudden parents feel like you're including them, right? Right. And all of a sudden they're like, and you're and you'd be educating them a little bit, right? And then so then if and if a parent has any honest integrity or or and understands their their son or daughter's, you know, strengths and weaknesses, they might look and go, huh, my son or daughter is minus seven, and so they're on the wrong side of the plus-minus thing. Not that that's the most I'm just using an example, right? Yeah, and it'd be like, well, you know, coach said in our call that they're really concerned about our goals against, and Johnny's been out there for you know, two of the last six goals that have been scored against our team. I get it. That's why he's in the doghouse. I, you know, that would be great. And you know, but even I don't get that type of feedback. Um, another thing that you were talking about earlier about what motivates you, go talk to him. I agree, that's great communication. The flip side, you know, the other side of the coin, just to um play devil's advocate here, is you know, some coaches will say, and I don't know what level, maybe not at the lower, lower levels, but at starting at you know, 15 or maybe even 13, 14, can a coach say to a player, hey, if I have to motivate you, maybe you're in the wrong business. You know, maybe if if you need me to, you know, pump your tires and pat you on the back and blow some smoke, then maybe, maybe hockey isn't for you. You know, it's sort of like coaches, coaches have enough to worry about than trying to motivate each player.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:58

Right. Right. Right, right. But Tom, I mean I think that's a great point. So how do we, so how we as parents, because I I would do it with I would do it with my kids' teachers. Like I would literally be like, okay, listen, you know, he I I would I would be in that conversation, right? We're not asking for 13-year-olds to maybe, maybe articulate, like, and maybe it's not like how do I, how do you motivate me? It's more like, well, coach, you know, when you when, you know, I just feel, coach, I just want to let you know, I feel that you're, you know, you're pointing my flaws out and what I'm doing wrong more than other players. Oh, you know, I didn't even realize I was doing that. Well, you know why I'm doing it is I just expect so much more out of you than those other knuckleheads. Like, I'm I'm thinking, like, oh my God, like your my expectation for you now, and then that all of a sudden changes the whole conversation with a kid. Like, because I used to tell like even the players that I was playing with as a as a player, I'm like, you know why he's all over you because he because we need you. Like, like, trust me, if a coach isn't saying anything to you, yeah, that's that's terrible. That's like that's like he's not even yelling at me. Like, holy, he just wants me to get out. Like, he's just hoping I quit, right? Because I don't want to, I'm I don't even have the energy to yell at you. And so to me, it's like I've often found like when a coach is flipping their lid or strategically like like you know, playing head games or whatever, they're doing it because they expect more out of you. And if you could tell a 13-year-old that, sometimes that's all the motivation you need. Like, hey, listen, you better take it, buddy, because I'm gonna be flinging arrows at you for the next month. Like, I need you to elevate this team because I expect this out of you. Now, the player might turn around and be like, I can't take that pressure coach. Like, that's just not me. Now, maybe, Tom, that's the conversation you'd be like, well, you know, this is a tough, it's tough to be in sports. Like it's just tough to be in any sport. You're it's tough to be in any competitive environment. If you if you're if you're the chess coach and you just can't take the the chess coach breathing over your shoulder telling you have no time, you have no time, you have no time. Like, then maybe maybe it's just not you. Maybe it's not you're not the pressure. Like our job as coaches is to is to teach how to perform under pressure. So then how, but what is that pressure? Is the pressure negative pressure, positive pressure? Is it pressure that the player wants? And again, I I think I I I think I would be in the same situation, like, okay, wait a minute. You're telling me how you want me to motivate you. What the hell are you?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:17

You know, that's my well, and let me let me jump back in here too, because this is a this is actually a great conversation. It's a great topic. Uh, and I'll tell you kind of what I've learned from my research, right? Because Tom, you're right. Um, especially at the higher levels, it's you should be able to be motivated. What I'm looking for at a higher level, and the teams that I've coached that have succeeded and won, uh, when we ask that question, keeping in mind that when I say I ask this question, it's in a in a preseason type environment. There's multiple coaches doing it. Um, and we say, you know, how are you motivated? I'm not looking for a I am motivated this way, right? I like it when I see, and I see this again on the winning teams. Well, what motivates me is when we win, or what motivates me is when my teammates work hard and and uh or what demotivates me is when my teammates aren't given everything they have. To me, that's a really good answer. It's a really good sign. But these are these are young men and women who have, again, the emotional intelligence. It's been developed that that it's I know how I'm motivated. I I I want to motivate my team. There's a higher level of accountability here. So rounding out this entire conversation. And this and this, this is where, Tom, you're probably right to be a little pessimistic, but I'm hopeful that we can change this in the future. This is where it starts at atom level hockey, all the way up of how intelligent emotionally are we helping our kids become? Do they understand what they're feeling? Can we help them control those emotions? Do they understand that I don't like it when I'm yelled at or I like it when I'm yelled at? And I need to effectively communicate to my coach who may not listen, which is part of it. This is how I'm motivated. And then can they get to a higher level of accountability with that, right? I am motivated. I'm talking about myself now. Keeping in mind I'm just playing adult league hockey, but I still keep this kind of philosophy. I'm motivated when my teammates do well. I'm when one of my teammates scores, I'm super motivated by that. I'm excited by that. When my teammates help each other, that's just where I'm at. Okay. Um, not to keep this on me. I'm just saying that this comes back to what you said, talking about dignity and understanding. And you're right, as a parent, if your kid is having a hard time emotionally at 15 or 16 about being motivated, this is on the parent, too, to have that conversation with their kid of look, you're playing at a high level. Your coach's job is not to make sure that you're happy all the time. Your coach's job is to help the team win. How are you motivated, son, daughter? Let's let's learn about this. Let's become emotionally intelligent. Keeping in mind, too, parents, that the last whatever, 15, 16, 17 years of their life, you've been the beacon of them for that. All right, which is which is never fun or easy. You know, if kids do anything, Mike, it's they show us our own imperfections. And there's really a couple ways of dealing with that.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:56

Yeah, it's hard conversations. Like, what are you doing to demotivate the coach? Like, what are you doing to demotivate that team? Like, or what, like, you know, I I just like look, I just recently had a conversation with a student athlete who was like, oh, nobody likes that kid on the team. I go, do you like him? Yeah, you know, I don't mind him. He's okay. I go, then why don't you be the beacon of of light? Why don't you be the one that says, oh, let's not talk about the kid when he leaves the locker room. Why don't we talk about when he's in the locker room? Oh, we really need to be on time. You know, hey, you got to stop riding the coach because you know, you could really help us. Like, and again, that's I'm not expecting 12 and 13 and 14-year-old men and women and girls and boys to understand that. We have to coach them to do that. We have to give them the tools to say, you know what you could do differently. You could, you could not, you don't have to jump on the Twitter bandwagon and throw out the 140-character beatdown of the kid when he leaves the locker room. You could actually be the one that says, Wow, wouldn't it be cool if this kid showed up on time? And what can we do to help get this player to be on our team and can contribute more? And to me, again, that's a learned behavior. That's not easy, and I'm not saying that's easy because Tom even brought it up earlier. Like it happens in work, it happens in real life. Like, but but these are the skills we want to teach our kids that when you can do that at 13, 14, 15 years old, and when your career is over and your identity is no longer a professional paid hockey player, you can now take that into any environment. And even like I would expect that from my like the pro guys that I work with that that played pro hockey that now I work with at the youth hockey level. I'm like, do you know what kind of influence you have? Like, I'm sure, Tom, when you walk into a in a and you're in a stands, your influence, good or bad, is so much stronger than the average parent. Because it just is. Because you can say, like, listen, like guys, we could tone it down, but this kid I see a lot. Look at I I think this kid's a good player. And wow, they're on our team. Like, we're not doing any trade, nobody's getting traded December 15th, you know, from my my midget triple A team. So, what can we do to make this person a part of helping us win? Because I want to win. I want to win. So I'm not gonna win without this team, right? And again, that's those aren't easy. I get it. Or, like for me, I just go stand in the corner and and not listen to anyone, but you know, don't even get involved. But I know the conversation can go a thousand different ways, but I think it's it's I've much rather see the people that are in these situations for change to be proactive instead of just laying back and saying, hey, it's the way it is. These people are nuts. And and then that's a bad thing, like for me, I get into that and I'm like, okay, why am I even, why am I even sticking my nose in this?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:25

And I should have been there.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:27

But I but I'm like, I need to let me, you know, I've got I gotta make the comment. And then you just kind of stand back and say, hey, listen, if you don't wanna, if you don't believe me, that's fine. Um, I got the only analogy I can ever give, like usually that works, you know, for me is like, listen, I'm not a car mechanic. You ask me to change the oil in my car, you're you're probably blowing your engine. But if but it but I but I do this. Like, this is I'm around a lot of athletes. I'm a lot around a lot of parents, I'm a lot of around a lot of kids. And I get to hear the cradle to grave stories. I get to hear the kid that started at eight and then at 18, the parents are like, I can't believe it's over. Like, wow, did that go faster? Holy moly, I wish I would have done this. Okay, well, let's all let's learn from all those people that said, I wish I would have done this, and then said, Okay, well, is it really, really that important to do this, or can we do this and have the same outcome? I don't know. It just takes the people that are the leadership positions, have the knowledge base, and have the personality, the ability to speak instead of just laying low and and saying, Okay, I'm gonna watch this parent's house burn down because I don't want to be involved. Like I just I I tend not to be that person. And a lot of the people that I'm around tend not to be those people. So instead of being like the voice of like bad, right? Just be the voice of reason. Be and that again, it's not easy, you know, and and sometimes you got to walk away, but sometimes you can really make an impact. And and and you know, I don't know, I'd rather be the person that's trying to make the impact than the person that walks away. Yeah, again, not a question, just a statement.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:54

No, I know I think I I've been in those situations that you're talking about, and I think sometimes I've been a good influence, and I think sometimes I've been a bad influence. Um, you know, sometimes the expertise in my background and experiences comes out, and I I've I've been critical of coaches.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:14

Um, and I'm you know, I'm not proud of it. Uh I'm, you know, it's a shortcoming of mine to be pretty convicted about my beliefs. And so you're like it's just like, yeah, so I should bite my tongue sometimes, and but sometimes I just have to say it, you know, like my wife reminds me to bite my tongue.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:33

But so that's my that's my voice of each. Like, don't do it, don't do it, don't go there, don't go there.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:37

But to kind of bring this back to to you know, the mental health thing and maybe some things that are helpful, you know, another a book I've been reading lately um by Ray Dalio, it's it's principles, principles of life and principles of work, and and his number one thing is be a hyper-realist. And it's about being very honest with yourself and honest about your kid, and honest about, you know, really what you want, right? And then now we're talking about values. So, you know, and I I talked, I think, in our last um podcast with you guys about, you know, I hate seeing um the game get more out of the player than the player gets out of the game, yeah. Or the tail wagging the dog kind of thing. It's like, you know, parents and parents and players as younger, when you're younger, you know, you could probably do yourself a little bit of favor to to take a little inventory on what you value and what you really want out of this, you know. They say, Oh, I just want to have fun. Okay, well, if that's really the case, then be hyper realistic, as Ray Dalio would say, and say, you know what, we're not gonna try out for the top team, or even if my kid made the top team because he's skilled enough. But if he's gonna be on the third or fourth line and not play as much as the other, he's good enough to be on the top team, but he's not ready for that type of pressure. Or as a family, we just don't we don't value um status over playing time, we don't value hockey over mental health because a lot of people do, and you know, and and and I probably would have too. Like if my kid could have made the top team, I'd probably put him on the top team, and then you know, but then if knowing what I know now down the road, and have you just read this book and now adopted this philosophy of being a hyper-realistic about really what you want and values aligning with who you are or who your kid is, or ask your kid when he starts to be 12 or 13, they probably haven't identified their values. But if you had a conversation, they said, What do you really value? You know, do you value the friendships? Do you value the hard? Do you value the the uh challenge and to to you know, because if that's what you are are up for, then great, we'll go for it. But if a kid can be honest, or if you're as a parent, you kind of know your kid, uh, and it's harder when they're 12 than when they're 18, because you know, you've had a few more years of those teen years, and they have started to evolve into that young adult. You might know them better. But I I just think that being really realistic about what you want. You said it kind of earlier out out of out of a sport, um, and you can you can control some of that anxiety, some of that um pressure, some of the things that you you really value. And if like communication, you gotta in in youth hockey and tryouts, you can't get to the coach before the tryouts and say, hey, what kind of communicator are you? Because if my kid makes your team but you don't communicate well, I I don't want to be on that team, you know. But unfortunately, but you can ask around, you can ask as you're you know, here's maybe another tactic for parents is as your kid is entering that next level, as they're going into it, try to do a little homework, try to do a little research, try to find out if if if you know Johnny or Janie makes this team, what to expect, and then really maybe do a do a hard look at is that what is that a coach that we want to play for? Just because they're you know, yeah, it's the top team. Ideally, typically you want your player on the top team, but not if it's gonna not be enjoyable or not fun, then maybe you just opt out.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:24

It's it's funny, Tom, because I make, but I don't make, but one of my main main suggestions for the organizations I work with, and I don't work with a lot, but the ones that listen and want to want to evolve, right? Is we develop like your coaches have to have a mission statement and have to have a coaching philosophy. Like if you if you try to take a college job or a high school job or a prep school job, the the first question is gonna be, you know, okay, give give me your coaching philosophy. Give me give me who you are, who you are as a coach. Because I want to know beforehand, like, yeah, you won games, you did this, you did that. But I need to know like, what is your like what's your own mission statement? And I think we could do that at the youth level. I there's no reason at all that a coach can't give, you know, what their mission statement and philosophy is ahead of time. And I would think as a coach, I'd want to say that too, because I don't want players coming to me and then me dealing with all this the this drama later on.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:07

Like, why can't you even operate without that? Like, like Mike, I'm with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:11

Well, because some coaches say, oh, I played, I played, I played in the show and uh, you know, I I've I I uh you know, I've I've I've my kid played hockey at a high level, so now therefore I can coach at a high level. And I don't know if that's the case. I want to know who the person is. And if I'm paying eight, nine, ten, fifteen, twenty-five thousand dollars a year to play hockey, I want to know. Me as a coach, I want to hire kids that can play under my philosophy. Because again, to Tom's point earlier, I'm not gonna change. Like, this is you're this is who you're getting. Like, I know who I am. I'm an adult, I know where I am and how what my philosophy is and how I want to do it. Now, because a lot of times people like I know for a fact, like with me, parents will shy away from me. Because in uh in my mission statement is is is is I will not play just to win. Like, I will not play just for a score. I'm going to play for a long-term success of a student and an athlete. And that one weekend is not going to change how I want to go about things. It just won't. So just know that your kid's not going to be sitting at the end of the bench. No matter now, for unless it's like something, you know, real, like egregious, like, okay, you're late, or for instance, like if you're going to a tournament with me and you, you're, you've got a uh a tin of chewing tobacco in your room with an underclassman, you're probably gonna sit. But if you're but but if you're but if you're but if you're doing your job, you're showing for practice, you're on my team. I picked you. If I picked you, then I'm telling you how smart I am, that I that I know how to evaluate talent, you're gonna play. And but I want I want parents to know that.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:42

This is this is what I was saying. And and actually, Tom this is a good segue because the last note I have on my my sheet here is to talk about dignity and personality, which is what I think we're getting into here. But again, quick actionable items. This is mine, you don't have to do it, although this is used at some pretty high levels. Every coach, every parent, everybody that's doing a job, you should have a vision, a grand vision of what you want to accomplish during your tenure in that role. You should have a mission, which is what you want to accomplish in the year or the season, then you should be having objectives and tactics on the monthly and daily basis on how you're gonna achieve those things. But if you walk into a locker room, and this does not have to be complicated, if you walk into a locker room and you are not sharing any of that with your team, you are destined to fail. You are just destined to fail. All right. How are they supposed to follow you if they don't know where they're going? And it's it looks like you don't know where you're going if you don't tell them that. So vision, mission, objectives, and tactics, I think are a simple way to do it. You should take a few minutes and you should revisit those often because they can change. Your vision can absolutely change over the course of a few years as your team evolves or your job evolves, or your whatever it is that you're doing evolves. But um, again, Tom, I want to turn to you about uh everything Mike said, but just also dignity because because you you brought that word up in the pre-show. I think it's a really important one we need to discuss and kind of get your definition of it.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:03

Well, yeah, I think it's it's it's really unfortunate when coaches, you know, get critical or um critique and give feedback that attacks uh the dignity of a player. And you know, I don't know, I'm not in every youth hockey locker room, but I I don't think it's it's too pervasive. But yeah, I from my own experiences and and the higher up you get, and coaches are harder and harder on players, you know, it could happen in the high school level. And I've heard in, you know, say in in midget or Bannham's and and major you know major teams like that, you know, the coaches start to be, they still might be that old school mentality. And you can be hard on a player for um, you know, how they're playing, and usually it should be their effort, right? And or if they're making repeated mistakes, you know, then a coach can get in get into a guy and and say, you know what, you keep making the same mistake. We've talked about it time and time again. But anyway, um, if you know, but if they're gonna if they're gonna use language and communication and feedback that attacks, you know, a player's personality, right? Or or their dignity, you know, that that's now we're getting into an area where it could really impact the you know the the player emotionally and and and significantly. And so, you know, you don't you don't want to ever hear that that happens. Now, one of the ways you you sort of just talked about having a mission and a purpose and and having some objectives and tactics. You know, the other thing that is helpful if for coaches is if they have their team has an identity, right? Give the team an identity, right? You know, maybe you're fast and furious or you're you're you know small but sneaky, you know, whatever it is, um you you you give them an identity, and then you can do that with players too. And then if your player is playing to his identity, all you can do is compliment them on that. Hey, we agreed to this is your identity, and maybe the player isn't gonna score a lot and make a lot of plays. But if they can if they're fast and can take away time and space, um, if they're not afraid to be physical and finish checks, and then they do that, you know, a coach should be able to pay them some compliments that they're they're meeting their identity. Um because it because a kid might feel bad that they don't score ever, ever. And you know, but if you keep going to them and going, you know what, I know you haven't scored, but remember what we talked about. Your identity isn't to be our goal scorer. We got some guys that are scoring, and hey, we're still winning, and you're part of that. So um that that actually gives dignity then then takes it away.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:47

Yeah, I love that. And I think it's just what it does too, it it it's so it's it's it's taking a couple of roles, right? It's it's number one, helping identify identities within a team because everybody can't be the first line centerman, like everybody can't be the leading goal scorer, somebody's got to do something else, right? And I think you see it at the pro level, especially when you watch guys that are specialists, like penalty kill special. Like somebody says, okay, I'm not gonna get a lot of ice time, but when I do get out there, I can guarantee you this that puck's not getting over the red line. Like, like this is I'm not gonna lose my man, or I'm not, I'm a defenseman that like, you know, I I talk to a lot of D now that are that are you know, real D, like just defense, not Cal McCar, not Adam Fox, not, you know, these are just defensemen. Like somebody's gotta play D. I don't care how the game goes. It doesn't matter where the game goes, somebody still has to play D. So take like take that as a badge of honor. Take that role and that dignity of like, listen, nobody's beating me one-on-one. I might not go end to end and put a top shelf goal in. I'm not doing a Ziegress behind the net, but I can tell you right now, what I'm gonna do is you're not gonna get by me. And I'm gonna make sure that I position my play in my, you know, my area. I'm gonna protect my zone. And I'm gonna get I'm my dignity is gonna be, I'm gonna get pucks up to you, get goal scorer score. I play D. I don't want my first line centerman stuck on the point because it's ugly. Right. And I think, and certain kids, I think that that goes to, you know, a way you as a coach now can, you know, you know, give people identity and give people dignity and give people an opportunity to have success based off of what you value and saying, okay, listen, I don't need you to be this guy, but I love the fact that you're this guy. And what a great way to to frame that, because you can do that to any player at any level. I think you're the best door opener in this in the whole in the whole county. I think you open the door better than anyone. And and and you got if you keep doing that for us, you're helping our team win. Or whatever, you know, whatever it is. But I think it's if you give kids little peace, that's why, that's why people love, but getting back to Lee's point in the beginning, that's why people love being a part of community. That's why you, that's why you stay on a team when you're not the leading goal scorer. You stay on a team because you feel there's value that you like there that you're valuable. But who must be on a team that you don't feel valuable on?

SPEAKER_03 1:25:52

Yeah, let me jump in. The challenge there will be, though, you know, typically um a parent will think that their son or daughter is the superstar, or they want him to be more of the scorer. They go, no, my son's, you know, and I've seen it because I've I've run a junior team and I've had my, you know, my kids go through that level. And and and I know when I was running the junior team, that you know, that's I guess it happened could happen in high school too. But junior was really where, and and and I saw it in pro too, is where you really have to get realistic. As I mentioned, that's why I really value this book by Ray Dalio. And and and the number one important principle is being realistic. And it's hard for parents to be realistic sometimes with their what their kids' ability is, and it takes a lot of work to communicate and you know, if you are a coach to say, you know, Mr. Jones, I know you think Jimmy is a goal scorer, but he's just not compared to these other six guys I have. So if he's gonna be on our team, we need him to play a certain role. Now and that's what I think there's value in it. I think it's really because now you are you're you're you're not taking away someone's dignity, you're you're you're actually trying to give them an identity on the team and a role. Um, but you know, that's the challenge there is that because I saw it in junior, these kids would want to keep being goal scorers because that's what they were back in midget uh or high school. And and as an expert, you can evaluate and go, look, you can skate and you're you're pretty big. Um, I know you scored some goals at the school you were at last year, but you actually played in kind of a weak league. Uh, you played with the other two best players. I'm just telling you, on this team, I need you to be this. And and hopefully when they're when they're you know 18, 19 years old, they can start to accept that. But I'm telling you, even at that level, old habits die hard. And and they'll they'll nod their head and say, Yep, yep, got it, coach. Yep, I got it. And then they go out and they can still see them trying to, you know, dangle toe pull at the blue line because they want to beat that guy out of the zone and they turn it over and it ends up in the back of the net. And you're like, I tried to, I'm trying to tell you how you should play, and that's not how I want you to play.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:14

Right, but isn't it but isn't that the great part about you know being being an ability to have that thought? Like you know, like coming in and saying, Listen, I know where you are at at 10 and 12 and 15 and 18, but now I have 18 of you. Like, and now you need to change your role. Or that's why kids, listen, there's a reason why the top of the pyramid is so small. It's because all the kids that can't evolve or can't take that role or can't take that that advice and can't then pivot and say, oh boy, you know what? He this this person sees me in this different light. And if I can change my game, because I have all these other core skills to to help me, then I can my my you know, my career can keep progressing. And I think that's where, you know, I I mean I hate to say it, but it comes back to communication and and trust and why do you hate to say that, Mike? What is because if we don't present because none of us communicate well enough.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:03

I don't know. We're and we're also back to identity and purpose, right? Like all of a sudden, these kids, I mean, this is to just to kind of bring it back to mental health. That's where I see a lot of, you know, at the junior. Level was these kids all of a sudden being told they aren't who they think they are. Right. And it's not handled well typically. Coaches have too many players to choose from and they don't have time to, you know, try and convince them. And so they just go, you know what? This guy gets it. He gets his role. I've got this other guy who actually is could be pretty good, but I know that they're not going to accept this role and they don't really want it and they don't want to adjust. Um, and then I'll or they do keep them and they and they try to talk to them and tell them they're going to change. And the player says, Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I think I can be, I think I can be something else. And and and this is where mental health starts to break down, and they start to they start to get um have problems because their identity is changing, or someone's asking them to change their identity. And now the player's questioning, questioning two things. I thought I was a goal scorer, or I thought I was a good hockey player. This coach is telling me I'm uh I'm a plugger, right? I'm a grinder. Or um, I I thought I really loved hockey. I I I can tell you this too. You it's a it's a gauntlet, you know, the higher you go, it gets more and more competitive. And it that's another thing that's hard for for players to accept. Um, that that all of a sudden it's really hard and they start questioning, do I really like hockey? And and then they they have to come to a realistic, you know, a realistic determination that you know what, I think I was playing hockey for the social elements of it, for the camaraderie, for the for the for the um, you know, call it the brotherhood or sisterhood, um, for the community of it, but it's lost its purpose, and I don't think I like it anymore.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:04

Well, and then right there, Tom, right? What have you lost? All three things. You've lost your identity, you've lost your purpose, and you've lost your community in one one swoop.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:12

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:12

Um, and that's that's why these these are so important. And again, kind of rounding the episode out, parents, coaches of the youth levels, right? These are things that, in my opinion, it's on us to help these kids learn. And and again, it's about equipping them with tools so they can do it themselves. I mean, I always that's one of the tough parts of parenting. It's you know, you want to do it for them half the time. But the truth is you you got to teach them the fish, not just give them the fish, right? So when it comes to identity, purpose, and community, and Tom, you said this earlier, just start having conversations about those words. You can do this at a very young age, you can do this in the teenage years of hey, what do you think your identity is? Well, I'm a hockey player. All right, well, okay, let's just say your kid says that you're not gonna convince them otherwise. Tom, you were just talking about this. Mike, you were just talking about this. You know, what I would do, I think, you know, if this happens for me, and I wish someone had done this for me, is if I identify as a goal scorer when I'm 16, you know, I want to start having conversations about Steve Eiserman and how Steve Eiserman completely changed the way he played the game to win Stanley Cups. He became a defensive forward at one point of his career when he was one of the greatest goal scorers in the league. Right. So then have that conversation with your kid of you know what would make it really great if you're well-rounded in different identities of being a grinder, being a goal scorer, being a playmaker, being a good teammate, being the fourth-line guy. And I'm not saying you should try all those things, but opening them up to that, hey, the more tools you have in your toolkit, the more valuable you're gonna be in an older, older, higher level. Um, I always tell parents all the time, you know, if you feel like your kid's struggling, look at your team and find the gaps. Man, we don't have a playmaker, right? Well, you can create a role for yourself if you become a great playmaker. Odds are a coach is probably gonna see that, hopefully. Sometimes coaches don't see assists like they should. We're not gonna go into that. That's a whole nother episode. All right, but it's about communicating, teaching, identity, purpose, community, understanding what trust is, understanding what you know dignity is. I think that's another great word you bring up. We don't talk about enough on this show, it's just dignity and take how easy it is to take that away from a kid by your communication or lack thereof. So again, rounding this out, Tom, again, because we've been talking for a long time, which is awesome. There are a lot of things we can do as coaches, as parents, as teammates, um, and as adults of non-parents, right? We said that that can really help raise the emotional intelligence of our young young players, because I believe that better people will make better players. I I wish we thought about that more, that we celebrate all forms of success, not just winning games, academic success. When a kid shows character, doing stuff when no one's looking, you know, being a good teammate, lifting your friends up. You can say these are wishy-washy eye roller things, or you can lean into them and realize that that those are the things that separate people when talent exists on an even playing field. And I I wish we would do more of that. I think that's the the joint mission we're on. And I want to throw it back to you two guys for for any final words.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:20

Yeah, no, I mean I listen, I if we we could just I would just I would just turn the episode off. We stay on the phone for a couple hours. But I think it's just I think I think it's just it's one of those things where you know, at the end of the day, we all have to um the leaderships in in these roles. And I I do I consider myself a leader in this space when I'm working with other coaches, and and I want to be a leader. Like I want to say, like, listen, I made a lot of mistakes. I've berated kids and I've I've left locker rooms like, what the hell was I thinking? Like, why would I say that to him or or her? Or why, you know, why why didn't I approach that parent differently? Or, you know, you know, wow, I I really, I really made that impact. You know, and but more than not, I I I run into people that I made a positive impact on, right? And yeah, but you but I think it comes down to the old, you know, the a very old adage, right? That that you know, you can affect the player in one sentence, you could affect the kid the rest of your life, the rest of their life. So just be conscious of what you're saying. Are we all gonna be perfect? No. Are we all gonna make the greatest decisions as far as you know, critiquing a player or noting a very player properly or having a conversation with a parent? I I try to always step back and be like, the first time when a parent's yelling at me or upset with me or a player is you know not happy with the way I'm coaching them, that's the first time they're having that interaction. For me, it might be the 700th. And so I'm like, I but I can't treat it like I've talked to them 700 times. I've got to treat them like it's the first time I've ever heard it. That's a good thing. So and that's so hard to do. It's like, you know, being at the I mean, you almost have to be like a customer service person at Home Depot. Like, how many times do you get the same stupid question every, you know, that the they're like, uh, uh, uh, this is dumb. Like, but it's the first time you're saying it, right? So I and I think that's the way I try to look at parents. Like, I say, okay, well, let me let me take this perspective from a person that has no idea that this probably has happened four million times before.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:12

Take a deep breath and then deep.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:14

And but again, I think it's just a how you approach it and not be condescending and not, you know, not not embarrass anyone. Um, it but again, it's very, very hard to do because very few of us are in the positions um to make those decisions, right? You're you're you're kind of have these players in your hand and you're the one making these decisions. And and uh, you know, parents, I feel, I guess, feel like there's some type of entitlement there, that like you're working for them. And and I try to be like, well, I'm just trying to help you. And I I don't think, and and I will say this 98% of us coaching want nothing but the best for the kids. Like nobody is going out of their way to hurt a child and ruin like their uh motivation for wanting to be in a sport. I just don't see it. I I just you know, do I see crazy people? Yes, but I don't see nobody's getting insane. Okay, this is the year I'm gonna have four kids quit. Can't wait for, can't wait for that to happen. Like it's uh that doesn't happen. So it's just a matter of, you know, how do we all communicate better? How do we all try to try to bring the temperature down and and and how do we find ways to work together to motivate our kids so that we can see the signs of mental stress? So we can see the signs of a kid being depressed, so we can see the signs of somebody not thinking they're reaching their expectations of what the parent or the coach thinks they should be. And then we can intervene and have honest, open conversations about how then to move forward. And it can't always be, well, you know, because sometimes moving forward is all right. Well, maybe you just shouldn't play this sport and you should move to something that makes you happy. Don't don't make don't don't think it makes me happy. And I think that's where I see the most is when you see that, you know, and Tom, you've seen it now, right? That with the kids, like you see the kids with the dead eyes, like you see the kids that have no joy in being there. Like they're there and they're good, they perform well, but there's no joy. And, you know, and and sometimes I'd rather have a kid with a lot of joy with a lot, but no talent, than a kid with a hell of a lot of talent with zero joy. And and and and to me, it's just like, and that's again, that it's it's all I I love these conversations because it opens it up to now like have a lot of self-reflection and then start thinking about okay, well, how am I going to approach a kid this week and make sure that I'm sending the right messages so that they don't feel like there's some kind of stress that like if they don't do something for me, uh then you know they're they've they're a failure in in the eyes of their their coach, their teammates, their parents, you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:40

Yeah. Yeah, I think just to wrap up here, um as as Leah's talked about, communication is so important. Um both in and you'd like to have healthy communication from from coach to player, player to coach, you know, player to player, kind of just have that whole ecosystem of communication that might be um a little idealistic. But from what you also said, is you know, you don't no coach is like getting into it to ruin a kid. Like they might um they might ruin kids, but they're not getting into it to ruin kids. So it's uh it's a matter of of uh of a lack of you know emotional intelligence or a lack of or just their philosophy or their personal style. So maybe that's another way for players and parents to look at it and handle it and just say it's an uncontrollable, first of all. Second of all, it's not your fault that that's how they are, right? I mean, they're just bad at communicating. Let's leave it at that. Like at least then it makes it a little understandable, and then maybe, and then maybe a player and a parent can um almost accept it instead of internalize it. Yeah, and instead of internalize it and and go through that ambiguity phase and misunderstanding or not understanding, which is what leads to I think the um anxiety or or depression or um you know those those negative emotions, you know, the it's sad, it's really sad, but it's unfortunate, it's not sad.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:19

It's unfortunate, but at least it's all teachable moment, though, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:40:23

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:24

Sorry, I I'm not trying to cut you off. I'm saying that it's all teachable. If you have a bad coach or you have a tough year, as a parent, I want to utilize that experience, which sucks and is very painful. It's hard. I want to utilize that for after high school, after college. Of you, yeah, and again, look, these are hard conversations. No, no kid wants to have this. You're gonna be in positions in the future where you might have a leader that's not good. So, how are we gonna deal with it now? Like, those are the questions that don't get asked enough. Too often, right now, we're just finger pointing, just like, well, yeah, he's a bad coach. That's why you're not playing because the coach is bad. That is of no value to anyone, right? It's of no value. You're just saving them from pain that they're gonna experience later on anyway, right? So teach them it's gonna hurt either way. If you have a situation like that, how are we gonna attack this together so that my kid can learn the skills needed to deal with this in the future, whether it's in collegiate minor or pro hockey or just the workplace or college, whatever. Sorry. So I just wanted to say that, Tom. I do want you to, I did want to give you the last word though.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:35

No, and I don't, I think we've we've you know, we've talked a lot in a long time, as you said earlier, and um it's a complex, complex topic, right? And there's a lot of there's a lot of factors. But you know, uh one of the things that that I do think really was valuable here was you know, was was your your talking about identity, purpose, and community. I think that lays it out real quickly for um parents that find themselves in a situation where they are feeling um stress and anxiety, or their son or daughter is. Um look at those three elements, um, understand the communication thing. And maybe if you do have to go approach a coach, you know, maybe it's starts off with, hey coach, I understand, I know you're not doing this on purpose, but you know, and this could be the player if he if he or she is strong enough and confident enough to do it, say, I know you're not doing it on purpose, but I'm going through a really bad time. And I just need you to, I just need you to know that, you know, and maybe that's good enough. Just I think it'd be good for the player to get it off their chest, and and it could be just saying that's all I just wanted to let you know that. And I'm not asking for anything else, whatever, because otherwise, you know, players go in there. How do I get on the power play? How do I get on the pellet kill? How do I get more ice time? You know, uh, how do I I want to play on the with these other players because I think I'm good enough to play with them, whatever. Like that's a that's a probably a conversation that's not going to go as well because the coach doesn't want to be told who to play and when to play them or how to play them, you know. But if you are having a hard time as a player or as a parent, maybe it just gets a little bit of the dialogue going and things can get better if you start off with saying, I know you're not doing on purpose, and you know what, I think maybe my son or daughter is or or me as a player is I'm this is hard, but it's being realistic. I'm not as strong as the other guys, the other players. And I know you yell at them, but when you yell at me, and this is being vulnerable and it's it's asking a lot of a young player.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:42

Yeah, it's not easy.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:44

Um, but or as a parent, you just say, hey, I'm not calling to complain and anything. I just want you to know that my son or daughter's going through a hard time. I'm not asking for more playing time, I'm not asking for this. All I'm saying is that I really want this experience to be good. Can you just just want you to be aware of that?

SPEAKER_00 1:44:03

Yeah, the awareness part is huge. I mean, it's like, you know, and it can't be like, hey, you know, Mr. Korski told my dad that I should be on the same line as so-and-so. Don't don't say that. But but you could definitely say, like, listen, just when you let you know, you know, Tommy just broke up with his girlfriend. He's been dating her for three years, probably going through a little tough time.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:22

However, however that is, you don't know him because you don't live with him, you don't, you don't have breakfast with him, you don't have dinner with him. I do. And I'm his parent. That's my job. My job is to not protect them, but to advocate for them. And, you know, so and you take that what you want, but just understand that's the situation. Or little things like for me at the little, the youngest kid's level. It's like, tell me if your son is deaf in their right ear. Like, I need to know that. Like, these are things like don't don't let me assume, like, oh, by the way, my son usually wears glasses, but for no time in the in that he's gonna wear glasses, he won't do it in hockey. So if I'm screaming at a kid that he doesn't understand what I'm teaching, it's probably because he can't see. Right. And but if I don't communicate that as a parent, I just think the kid's an idiot. You know, I'm just like, well, the kid's a parent. Like, just communicate. And then I think, but at the older level, you can't be afraid. And again, if you're a co if you're a coach that's gonna take that the wrong way, I guess shame on you. But if you're a parent of an 18-year-old that can't say, not for nothing, just letting you know. I know he's not gonna say this to you. And maybe the first part is you tell your son to go see it, right? But if the son doesn't say it and they said and he's struggling, it's like and you say, Look, I just want you to let you know, he's going through this or she's going through this. No big deal. Just want to give you a heads up. Have a great day. And then, you know, there's no, there's no quit pro quo. There's no like you must do this to get this. There's no, like, there's no, hey, you know what? If you gave him more playing time, I think he'd feel better. You know, you don't do that. Right. You know it just can't do that. That's not it. I'm just letting you know that this is where he's not in a great place right now. Just be aware of it. I could guarantee you, if I know that, I'm I I might even be able to get in there and be like, oh my God, you know, uh, it really like what can we do?

SPEAKER_02 1:46:00

You gotta create that environment. What can we do? Gotta create the trust and you gotta create the communication bridge that everybody understands.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:06

But that's why you're a part of sport, right? That's why you don't sit in your basement and and do nothing. Like you're part of you're a part of sport because you want that community, like the whole idea, the negative parts of community, you know, have to be outweighed by the positive parts of being in the community. And being a part of the community is the fact that you do have support, you have people in locker rooms. That's what's so great about hockey, right? And we all say this all the time. Like you're in a constraint area, you're like where Lee is right now, right? You're in a constrained area, shoulder to shoulder with somebody, getting dressed, and and and and you're forced to communicate, hopefully. It's not like other sports where you get out of your car and you run on the field and you go play. It's you're you're you're it the sport builds the community, it builds the opportunity for conversation. And then we just need to flourish that. We need to enhance.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:55

I'll say this sports is the opportunity to build identity, purpose, and community. And I think to to round this out, yeah, that is we've rounded this out like seven times. Well, but therein lies the rub, right? Like, yeah, we Mike, you're passionate about this. We all are. It's it's there's the rub, right? Like this is that is what the true gift of sports is at any level. I think you know, if you lose sight of that, which a lot of us have done or that can do, and it and sometimes you do, and sometimes you don't. You can go in and out of that. You know, that's when the the negative things start to happen. That's when the mental breakdowns start to happen. So uh, Tom, I want to thank you again for donating so much time today. Uh, another fantastic episode with you, buddy.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:47

It's great talking with you guys. It's a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:50

Yeah, well, I'm I'm I'm sure this will not be the last. And uh, for those of you listening, if you haven't, if you're still listening, if you have a question for for Tom or any of us, feel free to email us at team at our kidsplayhockey.com. Uh, we'd love to have him back on. If you're wondering why you haven't heard from Christy for a while, she had to leave a little bit earlier. I don't think any of us anticipated going this long, but uh, but she uh she's lovely and we love having her on. And Mike, Mike, uh, Mike, I mean this. I'm not making fun of you in any way. You were very passionate about this. Um, I love hearing you talk about it. Uh but uh yeah, this has been a great episode. So for Tom Troisky, Mike Benelli, Christy Cash, Anna Burns, I'm Leah Elias. Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to tune in. We're here the whole holiday season. We're not stopping. We're going all the way through the new year and beyond for that matter. Thanks so much for listening. We'll see you on the next episode. We hope you enjoyed this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or our website, our kidsplayhockey.com. Also, make sure to check out our children's book, When Hockey Stops, and When Hockey Stops.com. It's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. Thanks so much for listening to this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey, and we'll see you on the next episode.