Our Girls Play Hockey: Growing the Game Starts With Belonging

SPEAKER_01 1:20

This episode is powered by NHL Sense Arena. Hello, hockey friends and families around the world, and welcome back to another edition of our girls play hockey. It's Lee Elias with Mike Benelli and Hayley Skomora. I almost messed her name up. Hayley Skomora is here with us today, Olympian gold medalist, PWHL Walter Cup Champion. When you add that on at the end, it always makes it easier to say. So, gang, today's episode is going to be a good one. We're talking about growing the game today, and not in a generic sense. We're going to share some stories. We've got some good questions about growing the game. They're going to make you think at home about how do we do that. And this was spawned because for those of you watching, you can see I'm actually in the old original podcast studio. For those of you who have been watching the show for six years, you may recognize this is the origin point. But I'm here today because I just got back last night around 1 a.m. from Puerto Rico. Quick story for y'all. My flights got canceled twice. I had to fly into Washington, D.C. My flight from Washington got canceled to Philadelphia, so I rented a car. I drove to Philadelphia, so I could be here today to be on this show. That's how much we love you as an audience, and that's how much I love talking to both of you as well. But where was I coming from? It's coming from San Juan, Puerto Rico, because we were doing a grow the game event down there with the Puerto Rican Ice Hockey Association, which many of you know I'm involved with as a coach of the women's national team. Um it was just an unbelievably inspiring event. Not just the fact that we were bringing hockey to Puerto Rico in an organized way for the first time. We have a new deck rank down there. I saw people that have never played hockey try hockey for the first time at our NHL Street event in Barbosa Park, right next to the Caribbean Sea in the ocean, which is a pretty amazing backdrop. But what you see at these events, which is unique, is that hockey is hockey. Whether it's a kid who does not speak English trying the game for the first time with his NHL Street gear or her NHL Street gear, or my national team athletes, some of them come into the island for the first time to experience the culture and see who it is that they are representing due to their heritage, their families, and their life. It's an amazing way to grow the game. Now, can everyone do that? Yes and no. That's what we're going to be discussing here today, right? So the first question I have for Mike and Haley today is this when people say grow the game, what does that actually mean, right? Is it simply getting more kids to play? Is it creating an environment that makes them want to stay? Haley, I'll start with you. What does it mean when you hear grow the game?

SPEAKER_00 3:56

That's a great question. I think it's a mix of all of it, honestly. I think you know, it's getting more kids just exposed to the great game to see if they like it. Uh and to just I think just playing different sports in general is always great. So I think it's really fun to be able to like take it to markets that aren't used to hockey and to see how quickly they all fall in love with it. Um, I think it's making different areas more um accessible for hockey uh as well, and just exposing them in that way and just uh adding more eyes to hockey too, like getting more people out to watch hockey games, uh knowing where hockey is in their areas or where they can get access to it as well.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Yeah, I agree with you. You know, it it's it's crazy, Mike, too, that when we think about this, there was a time in hockey history where people didn't want hockey in non-traditional markets, uh, which always blew my mind, right? I remember during the Great Southern expansion, by the way, most of the cups are being won in the South right now. But during the Great Southern expansion, there was all this hoopla about it. The truth is this the rising tide lifts all ships. So whether that's, you know, you're playing in Canada, Las Vegas, Carolina, uh, Texas, Puerto Rico, the Caribbean, Colombia, Argentina, the entire other side of the world. Like, I don't understand why there was ever a pushback for growing the game. But go go ahead, Mike. Let me get some thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_02 5:20

Yeah, I mean, uh listen, I, you know, I've done this for almost 40 years, right? So I think the, I think we, I think we get it wrong more than we get it right. I think that the uh, you know, growing the game to Haley's point is like, yeah, it's about everybody lifting up and everybody getting access and you know, non-traditional markets, like you could call them. I mean, obviously, Tampa and Florida aren't winning with Florida players, they're winning with, you know, just the fact that they have great hockey players from other regions. So, you know, it's it's when I think about growing the game, I think about the aspect of how do we grow the base and mainstream it like you do with soccer and basketball and no kid grows up in the US without playing soccer. None. No, it virtually doesn't exist, right? If you're if you're in a community, you put your kid in soccer. Why? It's cheap, it's easy, it's accessible. Now, again, you could talk about why they're not they don't have success at the higher levels at the national level, but the access is there, the numbers are there. There's more, right? And I think so. When you look at growing the game, when I talk about growing the game, I talk about how do we get as many kids into the sport at the youngest ages, at the most time, but also allowing them to have the most access for the longest time. You know, one of the things we do in the US, and certainly the NHL's done a great job with this, the PWHL starting to get very more, you know, much more involved in this and in putting, you know, their athletes in front of different markets, right, to get more kids playing. But what we do is we do a great job of getting those six, seven, or eight-year-olds on the ice, and we do a horrendous job of retaining those kids because we out, everybody wants, like even the NHL now, like their their mission to grow the game has turned into who can put together the best Quebec team. That's elite hockey. There's that market is should be somebody else's market. It's the market of how do I get people to buy season tickets, watch my games on TV, buy my jerseys, go out and play deck and street and ball and ice, that comes from USA Hockey, Hockey Canada, the NHL in in and you you showed that this weekend, you know, in Puerto Rico, right? Having the ability to have access to equipment, access to rinks, access to travel expenses, all that kind of stuff gets done because the power of the bigger the big guys, the PWHL, the NHL, the IIHF, they can help build that base where it's so big that we're not talking about retention numbers, you know, 10 years down the line. And and still today, again, we're still talking about retention numbers ultimately.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

Yeah, look, I'll I'll say this too. I think that sometimes we confuse elite hockey and the expansion of elite hockey with growing the game. Whereas I think that elite hockey and elite hockey can be an HLPWHL Olympics, including uh these junior leagues that are created, the NCAA. Um, there's nothing wrong with these these leagues expanding. That's a good thing for the game. But at the end of the day, to me, that's kind of the litmus test of what's happening at the grassroots level of new people coming into the game, right? Because those elite levels are only expanding because we're trying to get more athletes into the game. And I don't think we can lose sight of that, right? The grass roots level. And what you know, what's funny is what I find, guys, is the most elite players, Haley yourself included, um, they find the time to go grow the game at the grassroots level because they understand that's where it has to happen, right? I just I wonder at times, I mean, we know the answer to this is are we putting enough attention into recreational hockey um and those entry-level experiences? And again, I think that NHL Learn to Play, what the PWHL is doing, uh things like we just did in Puerto Rico of bringing the game to people, these events exist, but then there's barriers beyond that entry due to cost, um, due to the nature of how we operate within hockey, that there's this misconception that you have to be the next, you know, Hillary Knight or the next Connor McDavid to matter. That's where I think we start to lose sight of growing the game at every level, right?

SPEAKER_02 9:38

Well, it's the stamina too, the having the stamina. So you bring up Puerto Rico, right? So Mike Benelli with the Florida Panthers was in Puerto Rico in what 2013. We did 300 kids, 300 sticks. The tagline was hockey is hockey, looks like hockey to me. Little Puerto Rican kids running around Rincone with hockey sticks and a rink and playing hockey. I mean, they're playing hockey for for seven days, right? And then and then if you don't, but if you don't follow up, and there was no off-ramp for those kids, yes, they had a great weekend of skating around or running around and playing hockey, but what was the follow-up? What was the boots on the ground? Right. It looks great for like, and that was before, like it looked great, right? Social media, everybody got a tagline, it looks good on on NHL.com. But then what is the follow-up? And I think all of these communities, like you do a try hockey for free day, and you know, uh, we do it here all the time where we have 90 kids show up, but then what are you getting out of those 90 kids except for a couple of good taglines and some Instagram posts?

SPEAKER_01 10:38

Yeah, so Mike, let me dive into that because I can tell you how that's changed. Yeah, I can tell you that it's changed on the island. So, you know, most of our top-level national team players uh are NCAA players, you know, division one, division three. So they're elite players. So we're kind of reverse engineering this growth process in the sense of these athletes traveled down to the island to help introduce the game. But we knew from an infrastructure standpoint, we had to build a rink there to do exactly what you said, which is to continue the kids playing uh when we're not there, right? So they built a deck hockey facility, a roller hockey facility, created a roller hockey league, and this NHL Street event that we did, and obviously the events at the arena that we did, now you can keep coming back and growing the game, right? And I think that that's like the stuff that we don't see enough of. I think you're right, Mike, that we do a great job of getting sticks in kids' hands and saying, hey, check this sport out. Um, but we got to continue that journey. Now, Haley, I'm gonna turn this to you a little bit too, because in your day-to-day job, right, uh, especially in the summertime, you get to visit a lot of places with young hockey players uh and people that are, you know, we'll say newer in the game or in the first few levels. Uh, so you get to see that love for the game develop, right? And I what I love about the love of hockey is that it's a pretty universal thing when you see it in a young kid. What do you think makes a kid fall in love with the sport, right? They're exposed to so many different sports, but we give them a stick, we give them a ball, and all of a sudden, you know, they want to be out there with you. Uh what's your experience with that? And are we doing enough to protect that feeling?

SPEAKER_00 12:15

I think I don't know what it is. I think it's just because it's so different from any other sport. And so when you first do it, it's just so exciting and so new. And so I think it really attracts those kids who like love a good challenge and love to like push themselves a little bit. Um, I think I mean, I think the biggest thing like we were talking about is just making sure there's some sort of pathway after you see them. Um and so I know like with the Capitals program, like they do a really good job with like their learn to play programs where they have follow-ups with them like throughout that next season. Um, and then that also helps in terms of cost because they're only paying $100 for a full set of equipment for a kid. So I think that's a huge help. Um, they've also done like try hockey for free days, but then like they get to try on the equipment, see what fits right. Um, and I know they do a lot of like donations and stuff with like different organizations where they're able to donate gear so they're able to take home gear as well. Um, so that's that's a huge piece. And yeah, it's just so much fun to see the kids light up on the ice when they're trying it for the first time and um and they're just loving every second of it. They're like literally walking on the ice, but they just can't they can't get enough. It's the best.

SPEAKER_02 13:26

Yeah, yeah. I think I think Haley, you're absolutely right. I mean, that piece that f that like the follow-up and the path, right? These are things that really are so important because I think we all get enamored by we see that little kid that does the tri hockey for free, and then they do a learn to play program, and then they're actually really good. They're pretty good. And the first thing we do is like the travel coach says, Oh, grab that kid and let you know, put him on my team, and now he's paying six thousand dollars a year instead of instead of a hundred, you know, and and so you know, to keep those kids in these in competitive programming longer, like in a in a in instead of like putting them in a in an elite environment at eight and nine and ten years old, which actually it it when you really look at it, it actually makes the game smaller. Like, so you know, when you look at, you know, you had 60 kids on the ice and then you're selecting 15 for the elite travel team and you forget about the other kids, you've actually made right you're making the sports smaller. And I think that's where if there's a misconception of we are growing the game, there's more teams with less kids on them. And there's less kids. Like, so yes, the the financials are there because we're charging more money for less kids. But I think it's just like it all depends on what your motivation is. If your motivation is to, if you're a rink owner, for instance, I'll give you a real world example. So 10 years ago I was approached, they wanted to build a rink out in Long Island, Pecanic Hockey Foundation. We have no program, it's an hour and a half away from everywhere else. What do we do? Well, let's go see an expert. Let's go see somebody that builds basically programs every day. You build a floor ho floorball program, they put floorball sticks in every school, probably 20 schools, and they started floorball programming. And to Haley's point, they loved it. Why? Because they could be successful at it. You didn't have to know how to skate, you don't have to know how to stop, you didn't have to pivot. Right? You were just successful. You put your to Lee's tagline. Hockey was hockey. It looked like hockey. The kids didn't know. They went home and said they played hockey. They didn't say they went home and played floorball or deck hockey, they played hockey. Those kids now say, hey, that was fun, but what's the next like what's next? Oh, let's get you on the ice. Now you're on the ice, and now you're skating. Now you have a base of kids that want to play, and what happens? Six years later, they build two rinks. I mean, two full brand new facilities that are full with kids that started with just how do we get kids to the rink? Well, you have to make kids play hockey. It's why in the 70s, when AYSO became available for soccer, and every community built a soccer field. And basically soccer was free. It was free. I think it was 60, you know, whatever, $65 a year. Still, it's still cheap, unless you belong to a like a like an elite club. But everyone can get on the grass and everyone can play. And so when you talk about growing the game and sustaining the game, we've gotta get we've gotta get the guys that just want to make money out of it in as far as the growth piece. Let them have their pie. But we need more people that want to show up at the rank, you know, watch 60 or 70 kids skate.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

Yeah, I I think, Mike, to your point, and this is kind of maybe the crux of the episode, is there has to be a mindset shift amongst the hockey community when it comes to developing the game. And what I mean by that is I just think the FOMO and the elitism of getting to the highest level possible, we all get lost in that as coaches, as players, as parents. And I'm not saying, and I want the audience to hear me, I'm not saying you should not pursue the highest levels of this game. I absolutely think that has to happen, right? I think that anything worth pursuing like that should be pursued. I think there's room there also, and this is where I think we mess up. I think there's also room we can make room for the stuff that we're talking about today. My kids were with me down there. Mike, to your point, right? It looks like hockey. What's funny about playing hockey in Puerto Rico is we're playing on a court where it's like 110 degrees on the court. It's like the opposite of ice, right? But they're still playing, they're still loving it. We had like 70, 80 kids out there trying the game for the first time. Most of them speak in Spanish. You can see the love for the game. Now, I brought this up again. My kids are there. I wanted them to experience being part of growing the game. While they played in these events, they're also immediately ambassadors. And I wanted them, and again, I have the opportunity to do this in my role. I wanted them to experience that as part of the game. We are helping to grow the game. This is important. I think we can totally inject this into everything that we're doing. And I don't think that we do it enough, right? So that's the point that I'm trying to make is that how do we make more allowances for us to grow the game in that way? How do we take these elite teams and explain to them that, hey, we need to go out and part of our season is to go visit kids and grow the game? Why is that limited to just national teams and professional teams?

SPEAKER_02 18:25

Let me let me ask Haley's show, right? So let me ask Haley. Like if you're when you're you're as a professional athlete in a in the role of whether we like it or not, right? One of the pieces that the PWHL has to do is outreach. You have to do those, you know, signing tables. And after you have win or lose, you got to sit out in the table and put a smile on and and just say, listen, I love we love the fact that all these little girls and boys are here. Like this is, it's almost like you want to feed your success by bringing more people into the game, right? You don't care. And the funny thing is, the the people that could come that you could interact with and help, if if they're playing elite-level travel hockey and they're in Minnesota every weekend for a tournament, they're not supporting the PWHL. They can't. Like, so from a business perspective, it's like, yeah, let's go. Like, let's go with the kids that just want to have fun and be recreational hockey players. When they become elite, great. But really at the business level, the business model is the same dollar is worth a dollar with the kid that plays rec hockey as the kid that plays elite hockey, but the kid that plays rec hockey is probably more available. Like that person could go to the Haley Schemura clinics and camps and get togethers and signings and the PWHL days. Like, I think that's why a lot of times we get it wrong that we're rushing the kids into a into this other environment before we remember that actually we want more kids. We don't need the elite kids. The elite kids are elite, they're great, but we need more kids, right? I mean, you do uh you want to play in front of thousands, you know, not hundreds. And the way to do it is to interact with those kids.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

Yeah, we do that, you know, with our takeover games a lot too. Uh, I say we do it a little bit extra there, so we'll go there like a day or two before we would normally get to like an away game. Um and the takeover tour games are typically in different markets where we don't have a PWHL team. And so I think, you know, that also shows the growth of the game, but we always get so many people out at those like coming to watch because they're like, we never get to see this, like because it's so far for them. Um and I think that's the coolest part. But yeah, we we go out, we do stuff on the ice with them, we do autographs and just special little moments with them uh to just make it more interactive, to see, to see it up close and to really be able to like take it more personally, be like, wow, like I I look like them, I could do this, like, or just seeing how fun it is in general. Like maybe they don't even want to reach it at that level, which is totally fine. But they're like, wait, that looks so much fun. Like, I want to do that now in my market. Where can I play? Um, and so that's a that's a really cool piece of it. Um, I know we actually this actually just reminded me there was this girl, I did a Rochester camp this year, and um, over the weekend, and they had it where it was like different PWHL teams uh that they got to be a part of. And this one girl, she came from Rally, North Carolina, and she started hockey because she had seen the Minnesota Frost play the Ottawa Charge in Rally, North Carolina. So that was really cool. She was probably like, oh man, she was probably like 11 or so, 11 or 10, had just started hockey and was loving it out there. So I think just to see like that actual impact that you know our league had in that market for I it was one girl, but I'm sure there's so many more stories like that.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

Well, and that's it. And that player, like to you, right? Like you don't care if that girl could be a Buffalo Regal or she could be a wreck kid from Gray's ice arena, like it doesn't matter to you. Like, who do you care? Like, I think at the end of the day, the professional athlete and the one that's doing the work and putting the boots on the ground is like, I just want to see a ton of girls showing up. Like, this is unbelievable. Like hearing those stories is great because they're not they're not antidotal, they're real. And I think that the impact, like what you're hearing from that impact, is probably only one-third of the actual impact you're making, right? So I it's uh it's really is cool to hear like that story that a that a kid was inspired to play, but that is exactly what the NHL, PA, and the PWHL and the IHF, that is the that is why that's their job, right? Their job is to say, how do I get our athletes, the best players in the world, in front of the least accessible people in the world and provide them access to this great sport, and it and and you know, to what Lee did at Puerto Rico and you know what we see working all around the world is that it doesn't always have to look like hockey. Like most like Lee, many years ago, deck hockey wasn't considered hockey. You know, floor hockey wasn't considered hockey. Like, oh, that's not hockey. I'm like, listen, hockey, and I love the fact that the NHL and the and the professional world has transitioned to hockey is hockey. And you have a stick and a ball, a stick and a puck skates or rollerblades or inlines. The fact that the kids aren't playing basketball, soccer, and football is like again, not that not that there's wrong nothing wrong with those sports, but uh my job is not to promote basketball, my job is to promote hockey. Like so I How do I get more hockey kids playing? Make it more accessible, get great people like Haley more involved, and then convert those kids by giving them pathways to success.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

Yeah, I'll say this too, Mike, to your point. There was a great phrase I heard years ago. I wanna, it might have been a peconic, was just get sticks in hands. Get sticks in kids' hands, right? Like it's a stick sport.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

Um, I think when we I think they got in trouble for their tagline, get the puck out here.

unknown 23:44

Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

I I just think when we made that mental change of it doesn't have to be on ice, that that changed things quite a bit. Uh, there has been serious growth in this game over the last 10 years. We'll get to how the last year is going to grow it even more. But the two words that keep coming to my mind, gang, um, are this belonging and impact. You know, Haley, you just touched on that a bit too, right? There's so many different ways of looking at how belonging plays in. Whether you're a young girl being told you can't play hockey, which I think is now not happening as much, but that's one way. One is another one is hey, it's uh we don't play hockey in the Caribbean, we don't play hockey in South America. Like these were all things that had to be broken and looked at differently. Um, it really boggles my mind when I still hear young people talk about oh, they don't play hockey, they hockey doesn't belong there. Like that's one change we have to start making, right? Hockey belongs everywhere, and this is one of those things where you're gonna eat yourself alive if you have that mentality, you know? And I I want to turn the conversation that way about belonging and impact. We talk about how we all try and have impact in growing the game. Now, I'm talking about going to Puerto Rico, I'm talking about going to all these other places. I understand, Mike understands, Haley understands. Not everyone's going to have the access to growing the game that the three of us have on this show. But that does not mean we don't all share the responsibility in some way. So I want to talk about coaches and parents right now. You know, what responsibility do you at home, if any, have to growing the game? And how can you do it in a way that matters? Now, I'm going to say this. I'm going to make it opinion-based. I do think that if you're involved in the game in any way, you do have a responsibility to help grow the game, right? If we're not growing the game, there won't be a game. All right. Um, so I think that, you know, from just like let's start with coaches. You know, a way to grow the game is maybe to take your mindset outside your team for a moment and expose your kids to even younger kid practices. Or maybe instead of a practice one day, I just it sounds like crazy, but it's not. Go do a learn to play event, do something with the local community. I think not only is that great team building for your team, but you're helping build the identity for your team. You're helping build the why we're playing hockey and you're giving back. I think when we talk about hockey being uh uh an avenue to grow yourself as a person, this is a great thing to do. And I look, I'm gonna say it, I've seen it in my own children. They take that responsibility so seriously, more than I intended for them to take, right? They truly enjoy sharing the game. Why are we not doing that more in youth hockey? And I'm gonna say this because I know I know how parents think like it's not about the lack of time, it's not about money because these events are next to nothing. We're just kind of not doing it. All right, and I that's something I'd like to see coaches take an initiative of one time a season. One time, instead of practice, invite kids out to your ice or do something to grow the game. Mike, you say it all the time. There's no one practice gonna fix your whole season. But I'll tell you what, this one impactful practice where people feel like they belong will have more impact on your team than working on your five-on-three penalty kill.

SPEAKER_02 27:09

So, so you obviously have not read my impact of growth and community. So, the bottom line is every organization I work with, there's two pieces that we incorporate. Every one. Number one is your team sharing the ice with an underserved or underprivileged community. In my region, it's usually ice hockey in Harlem or something like that, you know, the uh hockey in New Haven, or you know, where you you invite that team, the parents pay for a bus, the kids come up, they share your ice. It is it is more impactful for the players and the parents. It is it is unbelievably impactful. I mean, it's it's unbelievable what it does for the and then uh inevitably those kids somehow, and especially in today's world, they stay connected longer. You know, between Snapchat and Instagram and Facebook, like they become part of your community, which again costs you nothing. It's it's it's your it's your it's it's nothing. It really costs you nothing. You already have the ice, you have access, and it really what it does, like when we've sent kids to ice hockey in Harlem, and and we've, you know, my teams that go and do this, like they go through the process. They take the train, they carry their bag, they have to get their sticks to the rink, they've got to navigate 125th Street, they've got to figure out how to get to it, you know, they gotta play in you know, three-degree weather. Like, and they have to understand what these kids are doing to play, what a sacrifice it is, and what it what like how much they love it helps our kids love it. The second thing, 100%, again, it's not it's not an obligation, and and I really don't know if it's the parents or the coaches' responsibility, but the organization should be driving this, is that you go out and do a school event. So your players should go do a floorball clinic or a deck hockey game or something where you go to a community of kids. We used to do a program, we still do, we do a program where if you recruit three of your friends to come to a floor hockey event that have never played hockey before. Go out and find three of your friends. I did this, listen, this is a great story. I did this with Iona Prep. It was our preseason training camp, and all we did was play floorball. That was we had a floorball tournament basically all of September and October. Our best player, our best player by far on the court was a kid named, I forget now, I can't believe I can't remember his first name. So Mariana Rivera's son. It was the best kid. You know, Dominican Republic kid had the best moves, and he's like, my dad would never ever let me set foot on the ice. But if I could have got that kid when he was eight years old, imagine what I could have done with that kid because he was an unbelievable athlete. Like he just took to the game so fast and was doing so many things that were outside of the realm of what our other hockey players were doing, it like sparked like, oh my god, I wish I had this kid when he was eight. And you know, because we all talk about it, right? When you're 10, 12, 15 years old, it's too late to start hockey, which is really not accurate, but it's a very difficult sport to get into after a certain age. But I think this is where when you go into your community, you go into you know, downtown Syracuse, and you do a clinic with a bunch of kids that would never have played hockey before, and they and hot and the hockey kids love it, the kids love it, the teachers love it, the other parents love it. It's just these little small things. And you said it, Lee. Maybe you missed the one game on Saturday, but you make up for it with a lifetime of you know, a story and a and a an experience that both kids would benefit from.

SPEAKER_01 30:31

Yeah, the powers of Google say Mariana Rivera has three sons, Mike, uh Mariana Jr., Yafay, and uh Heisel. I don't think that's his name.

SPEAKER_02 30:39

I might be saying it had to be Mariana Jr. Whoever kid went to play baseball at Iona Prep.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

The power live live uh broadcasting.

SPEAKER_02 30:47

But I apologize for not having the name.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

No, no, it's okay. If he's listening, come on the show. Uh, you know, Haley, I'll say this too for you that you know, we're talking about what I don't think is that big of a thing to do is to take your teams out from a coaching standpoint and expose them. But I also think that the messages coaches give their own players for part of growing the game is important. Now, again, you grew up in a home with an NHL player, uh, you were exposed to it from an early age, but I'm sure you saw the other side of this of uh coaches maybe not always saying the right things to keep the mindset open. Like, I'll give everyone a great example. In the 90s, it was just commonplace to say, don't be a girl, don't play like a girl. All right. Now, I think that that that has mostly, mostly been kind of taken out of the game.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

It's still kind of coach said that two years ago.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

Yeah, I was saying you there's people who still say it, but like I think we've gotten to a point of like, oh, that's not the right thing to say. Well, he was he was he was 82, so I'll give him a couple of things. Well, but Haley, I want to ask you like, are there even smaller steps coaches can take from an inclusion, a belonging standpoint, an impact standpoint for all the kids, right? If we're on a co-ed team and making sure that the all the kids understand that, hey, we belong together, right? Like, what are some steps coaches can take to help grow the game in this nature?

SPEAKER_00 32:07

I if we're going co-ed route, I think to like make the girls feel comfortable because usually they're outnumbered by the boys. I think encouraging players to not like not always have the girls together in a group. Like I was at a camp recently, there was only like three girls in the camp, and the boys would never go in the line with the girls, or they would barely ever partner with the girls. I'm like, they're not gonna bite. Go in the same line. Like you're doing a skating drill, like you're individually skating in a line. You can go in the same line, it'll be okay. You know, for an all-fight swarm. It was like the same thing. It was like this weird like separation thing. It's like, I think as a coach, you can kind of encourage, like, hey, go spread out, go in different lines, like partner up with different people. Um, I think, you know, especially like in the locker rooms, it gets very separate, but I think making sure girls are in a comfortable locker room and they're not in different closets and things like that. So a lot of little things like that, I think the coaches can have an impact on and to make sure that they feel comfortable and also not to like treat them differently, um, like on the ice and stuff. I think just treat them like you do with the with the rest of the boys on your team, and then that goes a long way because then the boys realize, oh, we treat them the same way. You know what I mean? Because if the coach is treating them or coddling them or anything like that, then they're gonna do the same. So I think it's really important for the coaches and the players to kind of all get on the same page with that and just treat them like a hockey player.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

Yeah, I love it, Haley, because this is this is something that uh you know I've had to adapt to. Not that I wasn't necessarily doing it before, but I obviously I coach a lot of women, a lot of men, boys and girls co-ed together. And the solution that I have found, solution might not be the right word, but the the the the way I've taken this is I just started calling everybody an athlete. These are my athletes, right? It's not the boys and the girls, these are my athletes, these are my hockey players. And then there's a mental shift too of you don't coach anyone different when they're athletes, they're all just athletes, right? One of the funny things of coaching a women's national team, uh, and and and this plays to your point, is that you know, I've had several assistant coaches, and and I always get asked, what do I do different? What do I do different with the women? And I go, nothing. Coach them, just coach them like you'd coach them anywhere else. You don't have to do anything different, all right. And and the thing is like it's coming from a totally uh good place. Like it's not like like they're they're asking this in a negative way or or you know, uh, what's the word, you know, uh the wrong way. Um, it's just that's the stigma, right? So we're again, we're talking about growing the game. To me, these are all parts of actually growing the game, whether it's these big like going to foreign lands, or we're talking with your local team, visiting, or inviting other people out that haven't played, or understanding how to grow the game with your team, right? These are all parts of that conversation. But look, I coach athletes, I coach hockey players, I don't coach boys and girls. All right. I I honestly don't care, and I think also just flipping this to coaches real quick, or keeping it on coaches real quick. I do think, I'm gonna say it, that there's a little bit of ego about, oh, I've got to coach the top level. The top level is boys triple A elite. And I'll tell you this, and and Mike, I want you to comment on this too. Uh Haley, you're still a player, but I know you feel this. I have coached, and I'm guys, I'm not bragging. I've coached virtually every level from pro to junior to college to youth, boys, girls, co-ed. I enjoy all of it. I enjoy coaching my daughter's U10 girls team as much as the national team. There's there's the enjoyment is in both. The stakes are different, the goals are different for sure. Okay, but I love being on the ice with these kids. When you approach the game like that as a coach, and I think most of you do, don't get me wrong. This isn't like I'm damning coaches or anything like that. Man, does that create impact and grow the game? And you're inspiring these kids to do the same thing. I'm getting on a soapbox again.

SPEAKER_02 36:14

But if you're a coach or a coach, like we have a coach right now in the organization that I'm working with that he coached Alaska Anchorage, and he said, I'm gonna coach you, your my you six the 16 UB team, like I'm coaching Alaska Anchorage. I'm putting the same effort in. This that's and that's the problem sometimes, right? Because sometimes you're like, holy crap, I'll be putting like my whole life into this. This is a 12 boys B team, for God's sakes. Like, you know, so it's like, you know, but what when you're a coach is a coach, and I think, you know, the and and to Hallie's point, even about treating the girls and the boys and understanding, the same thing goes for coaches, you know, understanding, and I think the best coaches do understand this, is that the a player at eight doesn't is not a player at 16. Like, you want to grow the game, then keep those kids in the game. Don't just assume, oh, the kid's the he's the goofiest kid that can't skate, and he's not a great player, and he's nine and ten, that if you don't keep him in the game, you'll never know what he's become. And I I I it's not even I could tell you story upon story upon story of kids that were cut from every single A-team there have been, and then in high school they were a high school senior captain. I mean, that's just a fact, that's just a fact. Or they play the only kid in the group that played college hockey. Like, you don't know, but if that kid would have left the game because the coach said, You suck, you're lazy, you're useless to me, I can't play you, you'll never ever know. You'll never get to see what that player could have become. And that's part of us not growing the game. It's the reason why the statistic uh exists, right? That boys and girls at 13 years old quit our sport. Not every sport, but most of the time. I think hockey is actually a little later because I think the investment is bigger for parents sometimes. Like, like they'll keep them in hockey a little longer because it's like, oh, I've already I've already invested all this. But part of growing the game is keeping kids in the game, right? I mean, the old adage that don't be your kids' last coach is so important in the growth of hockey because we see it all the time. You know, and I and I and I think that you know, no matter whether whether they're an A player, a B player, yeah, a girl or a boy, keep them in the game as long as you can.

SPEAKER_01 38:19

You know, Haley, I do want to ask you this, just because we spoke about it. Um, along the journey for you, first question is have you had coaches that uh you know were were we say hesitant to coach you as a girl or thought they had to coach you differently as a woman? Um, and then more importantly, like what's that like from your side? Because you know, it could be coming from such a pure place of, oh look, I just want to do this right. I are you okay? Like, is there anything else I need to do? You know, to in my experience when I see coaches do that, they actually get eye rolls. But what's what's the what is the female experience of a coach that's maybe coddling uh because they think that's the right approach?

SPEAKER_00 39:01

Funny enough, I don't know if I ever experienced that because my dad was my coach pretty much the whole time growing up. So uh he did not coddle me. Um I would say, but I do hear it like a lot, like um with a lot of the kids that like I mentor nowadays. Like a lot of them obviously are starting in like boys' hockey, and they a lot of questions I get are like, what do you do if like the coach doesn't like put you out as much as the boys or like makes you do a different position than you're used to because you're the girl? And like I I do get that quite often. Um and I usually just tell them to just keep focusing on their game, and honestly, it makes them a more versatile player, and like there's all these different things you can kind of take away from it, but it definitely is a frustrating pattern that I've noticed uh when it's like one or two girls on a all boys team where they kind of get the short end of the stick a lot of the time, uh, just because they're agreeable and they're coachable and they're like, Yeah, of course, you know, like I'll do whatever the team needs. And it's like, well, okay, let's this isn't a coincidence that it's the girl that you're making do this, in my opinion. But um yeah, so that piece can be tough, and that definitely still happens today. Um so yeah, yeah, I don't I don't know. It's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 40:12

No, it you're making great points, right? And again, like this is part of growing the game is the evolution of how we approach situations like this. If we don't talk about it, nothing's gonna change. I love that you bring up how girls are oftentimes agreeable. I I think we've spoken about that on the show many times, and it's it is by and large pretty true. It's not every obviously not every kid in the world is that way. All right, but the the awareness of this is growing the game. All right. Now, we've been on coaches for a minute. I do want to flip this to parents for a little bit. Um, and you know, parents, I I I see at home, you're busy, you got your job, you're driving your kids. I get it. It's like, what more do you, our kids, our girls playing hockey? What do you want me to? What do you want me to do? What more do you want me to do? Parents, listen, listen, I I get. Remember, Mike and I are hockey parents too. All right, we're we're doing the long haul as well. This is my opinion, and then uh, you know, Mike and Haley, if you have other things too, we can add it. The things that you can do as a hockey parent does not take much work. I'll tell you one that I've seen. Um, if there's a family there, maybe the family has uh non-traditional English, you know, non-English speaking people, or they look a little different than the normal hockey audience. Go talk to that family. Introduce yourself and say hello. All right. I've seen this a lot where you could be in a rank and there might be a family that doesn't look like all the other families, they largely get ignored. Be the parent that goes out of your way just to say hi uh and introduce yourself, especially if the kid's on your team, right? Um, I can't tell you how comforting that is for those families because it can be hard for them too, especially if English is not their first language to come up to you. That's one thing. Now, does that happen in every rank, every weekend? No. But that's one thing I think that you can do to be better. I think the other thing, too, uh, is is exposing your kids to the understanding that there is life beyond hockey and that you know you can slowly roll a little bit too with the elitism of hockey in the next level, uh, and understand that this is a very, very global game, right? I know we get lost in our community teams and our club teams. This game is played out throughout the entire world. Every continent. I'm gonna assume Antarctica has some version of it with penguins and things like that. All right, but my point to you is the game is very global, more global than other games. All right, like I'm gonna say it, like baseball's not as global as hockey. Nothing wrong with baseball. It's an American sport largely, though. Okay, obviously Caribbean South American sport too. But hockey's a pretty global sport, you can expose them to that just by reading books or stories and having conversations. Now, again, parents, you do a lot, but I'm gonna go back to that first thing I said is that if you see a new family, be the parent that introduces yourself to that family. And and by the way, parents that do that, I see you. I see you doing that. I do see that happen too. But I think it's those small steps, right? Mike talking to you as a parent, like that you can take, you don't have to do much more, you don't have to travel to other places like we're doing, all right? But just starts a little bit at home.

SPEAKER_02 43:21

I I I think as a parent, yeah, I like to me, like I could see the the allure of sitting in the stands and just paying your fee and and and being less competition, right, for your kid. Like, I could see that. I'm like, okay, well, that's like just why would I want to bring more kids into this game? Like, my kid's happy, and there's plenty of kids here. And you know, I think I think when but as a young parent, I think when one of the things we we lose as as parents that we don't see is the future of growth and retention. And if you're if you want to have your your kids have a great successful, like say you're in a in a community that has a high school program or older pro you know, kids in the program, you're you're you you don't realize that if you don't help grow that younger group, there's nothing for your kid at the end. Like you'll be traveling and moving and having to go seek hockey somewhere else because there just won't be enough kids in your community. So, not that it's an obligation to you so much, but for your own self-sustainment, you want to grow that younger group because it's gonna benefit you in the end. The more kids that are still playing hockey when your player's older, the less travel you're gonna have to do, the less seeking of other higher-level programs you're gonna have to make. And honestly, you know, the the relationships you make are better. That's what listen, that's why everybody is so enamored by the Minnesota model. That's why everybody's so enamored by like the upstate New York model. Like, it's just because it's it's like a model of community and family, and you know, it's changing, yes. Are there are there own issues? No problem, yes. But because there's so many kids playing younger and everybody's like diving into the pool, the pool's just a better pool later on. And and again, it's not a parent's obligation, right? It's just something they gotta think about because it benefits them.

SPEAKER_01 45:09

Right.

SPEAKER_02 45:09

If you don't care about yourself, then then it's it's it's a win win.

SPEAKER_01 45:13

Yeah. Haley, you have any thoughts on this from a parent perspective in terms of just being a player having been around. A lot of parents and so you know as someone in your role.

SPEAKER_00 45:23

Yeah. I mean, I I love what you were kind of saying about like going up to people and saying hi and making them feel welcome because it is all about community. Like you want, you want it to be a welcoming environment for hockey. Everyone's welcome. And that starts by those simple conversations of just saying hi to someone, you know. I think that really goes a long way for families like that. And um, I also love the thought of having the kids helping younger teams. I don't think that happens often enough. I've only heard it like a handful of times. Like I never did that growing up or never really had that. Maybe the closest thing I had was like my brother was the age group above me. So I'm sure there was like overlap, but like not intentional. And I just think not even just for growing the game, but just growing good humans. I just think it's such a great idea and a great concept. And I think hockey parents can just support that and want to do that and want their kids to kind of volunteer their time to like have their kids mentor younger players. I just think it helps you hockey, human life, just everything. And so I think um that can definitely be integrated more. And I think that starts with the parents like initiating it or supporting it and being on board with it because then their kids are going to be on board.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

Yeah, I'll say this too, Haley, building off what you just said too, that you know, when it comes to club hockey, um, you know, identity sometimes in club hockey, by identity, I mean like who you're playing for, uh, can be lost because it's club hockey. You know, you play for a school, you've got a clear connection to that school, that community, that group of people. But when you're playing high-level club hockey, uh, you might be already thinking, I'm not here next year, I'm on to this next club team. I think something every organization can do. By organization, I mean the leadership, the coaches, the parents, the players is exactly what you're alluding to. Take a day and have your older players visit the younger players. Make it an event, make them understand. And this is what I mean by identity, and I'm giving this one away for free, everybody, right? There's a team before me, there will be a team after me. I'm on the team right now. You make it larger than yourself, especially if you're dealing with teenagers, where they are the main character and the center of the world. These events are very important. I see it within my own organization. We have it once in a while where the older team will come out and help the younger team. Man, are they heroes to the kids? And man, do I see the impact on the older players' faces. This is growing the game. This is the investment in each other. It's not just the young to the old, it's also the the, I'm sorry, it's not the old to the young, it's also the young to the older players. There's impact there. There's a sense of belonging, there's a sense of impact. For those of you out there looking for retention, I'm using quotations. This is an easy thing to do. It's an easy thing to do to get your 16-year-olds to talk to the six-year-olds one time a year. All right. If you want to go beyond it, get them out of the rink, have them read to a local school, have them do a tri hockey for free event. You don't need much to do these things. And I'm gonna say it again, if we have to bring it back to this, it will help your team succeed and win more games. When your athletes know they are playing for something larger for them than themselves, it's been proven that they will play better. It's been proven. Right? But that's to me all part of growing the game. And I'm saying it again, kind of going full circle here. I think we accidentally ignore that because it's busy, we're focused. Like, I don't ever want to stray away from saying that, guys. I get it. Like, I live it too, I get lost in it too, right? Oh, I got five practices this week, four games, and I gotta figure out where lunch is coming from. This is just it's to me, it's just not that hard to organize. Coaches, parents, and players, I'm gonna say the word. We have a responsibility to do this. And it again, just kind of bringing the conversation whole. I think we're trying to prove that while there are these like great massive events, like I talked about in Puerto Rico, that was just so inspiring. It doesn't take big events like that. It's it's it's little things too. You don't need a huge platform to grow the game. I'm gonna give Haley a compliment. Like, you're one of the most decorated female hockey players in the world now. I've seen her with these awards go up to people. Hi, I'm Haley. She doesn't go, I'm a Haley gold medalist and Walter Cup champion. I've been playing for a while. I played college hockey and my dad was in the NHL. She doesn't do that. Just hey, I'm Haley. Let's get you on the ice today. Let's show you how to hold the stick. It doesn't take much. You don't need much, right? I'll throw it to you again. Do you need a huge platform to grow this game?

SPEAKER_00 50:25

Absolutely not. I just think as long as you are bringing like a love of the game, a fun for the game, I think that's a huge piece, like going on the ice and just letting the kids play games and enjoy themselves out there. They can learn the skills through those games. Like it doesn't have to always be like skill drill after skill drill. I think it can just be a little bit more fun for the for the young ones, especially. And so if you're bringing that, like you're gonna be helping grow the game more than you know.

SPEAKER_01 50:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00 50:52

Love that.

SPEAKER_01 50:53

You know, and I'll say I'll say this too. Just, you know, like you said about skill drills, right? Some of the drills I do when we have guests are my players or the the the higher level players can't score. Their goal is to get an assist to a new player. Because I'll tell you what, if you see a player score their first goal ever, man, you've created something in that kid. All right. I've seen that many times. I've been on the passing end of that many times. Uh, it's expiring. Inspiring. Sorry, go ahead, Mike. Again, talk about the huge platform.

SPEAKER_02 51:23

No, I it's just no, it's just a matter of at the end of it, at the end of the day, whatever your sphere is, right? Whatever your influence is, whatever you're able to do, I think Haley, I mean, and again, it's so crazy when you talk to like elite athletes. Like the number one thing that comes up is just like be like be smart, be a good person. Like half the battle is just being accessible and being a nice person and and then and then you're attracting better people around you. And I think, you know, if you're somebody that wants to grow the game, grow the girls' game, grow the boys' game, just grow hockey and more athletes. I think having compassion and having communication and having the ability to, you know, understand and and and have the empathy that not everyone's gonna pick up the sport on the weekend that they got on the ice, and that sometimes it takes it's a long process and a long haul. You know, be in it for the long haul because you have to understand once you get in it, this is not one of those things where it's an aha, oh, I got it, you know, this weekend. It's a it's a really, really long process. And I think the people that understand that and know what the end game is have much more patience to wait it out and and and experience where we you know where kids are going to be at the end.

SPEAKER_01 52:32

Well, look, guys, this has been a great conversation about growing the game. Let's end it on this, okay? We'll go around the horn here and let's just challenge the audience. Challenge you. If there's just one thing you can do this season to grow the game, we've given a lot of those actionable uh pieces today. What's just one thing you're challenging the audience to do to grow the game? Haley, I'll start with you.

SPEAKER_00 52:56

Um for me, it's the it's going out to help the younger teams, going off to help it and learn to skate like one time a season. I think you just saying that was like so impactful. Like it it really doesn't take much, and I think it's really great for your kids' development, for the younger kids. Um, you know, you create that sense of community in an organization and a team, and you're gonna have kids who want to play harder for that team. Uh, and so it just helps, it's a win-win-win. I I just think that's it for sure.

SPEAKER_02 53:25

Yeah, I mean, I think if you really, if you at the end of the day, if you want, you know, just build more, more like everything doesn't have to be about practice on the ice and skills work. Just find ways to build community, build involvement, whether it's a uh, you know, a pizza party, a hike, a day at the beach, floor hockey at a gym, whatever it is, find other all other ways that you can include and incorporate players without there having to be a skill component, and you're gonna help really build that community for sure.

SPEAKER_01 53:54

Yeah, and then just keeping on this theme of the so many different ways to grow the game, this is our girls play hockey. I'm gonna challenge all of you this year, if you have the means to get to a PWHL game this season, whether it's in their local city or on the takeover tour, if you do not live in an area, we have a global audience here, watch a PWHL game. It's free. All right, it's on YouTube unless they change that broadcast deal. I know in Canada now you got that actually on CBC. So, like, there's abilities to do this, but check out a PWHL game. All right, I've watched a few over the past few years. You will enjoy it. It's extremely enjoyable. All right, that's my challenge to the audience. Make sure your kids are watching it. You do not have to make it this big thing. We're gonna watch women play today. Just say I'm putting the game on. We're going to the game and enjoy the game. Alright. So again, I hope we accomplish that when we talk about growing the game today. There's a lot of different ways to do this. Big ways, small ways. I do also recommend all of you, if you have the means, get down to the Caribbean playoffs down there. You won't rec you will not regret that having uh the C there right next to you. Uh uh you know, I'm joking a little bit, of course, but uh yeah, so uh that's gonna do it for this episode. Great conversation, guys. Uh any final thoughts before I close this out, my friends. Everyone's in agreement. All right, that's okay. For Helius Kamura, for Mike Benelli, I'm Leah Lias. That's gonna do it for this edition of Our Girls Play Hockey. Remember, if you have any comments, thoughts, let us know how you've grown the game in your communities. Email us at team at our kidsplayhockey.com or use the link accompanying this episode in the description. Keep that conversation going. That's just as important as what we talked about today. We'll see you on the next episode, everybody. Take care. We hope you enjoyed this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or our website, ourkidsplayhockey.com. Also, make sure to check out our children's book, When Hockey Stops, at When Hockey Stops.com. It's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much for listening to this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey, and we'll see you on the next episode.