Our Girls Play Hockey: Should Girls Learn to Hit in Hockey? PWHL Star Hayley Scamurra Breaks It Down

Hello hockey friends and families around the world. And welcome back to another

edition of Our Girls Play Hockey. It's Lee Elias with Hayley Scamurra here today of the

PWHL, Team USA. I love introducing you, Hayley. It's one of my favorite things to

do. Today's topic is about physicality, checking, hitting, competitive contact,

pushing someone on the board, separating them from the puck. It's got a lot of

different names nowadays. And when it comes to women's hockey, it is no secret that

the physicality of the game is pretty darn near close to full checking at this

point. So we wanted to come on here for some time today and really discuss where

we're at with this in professional women's hockey, where it's going. I know there's

a lot of parents of, you know, should we be preparing for this? Should we be

having our daughter's play in checking leagues, right? So I think the consummate

place to start, Haley, is your PWHL player. I mean, I don't see, the only thing I

don't see is open -eyes hits pretty much at this point. I mean, you're checking in

that league. How is that? How would you describe it? Has it been described to you

from an officiating standpoint of what you can and cannot do? Because from a

viewer's standpoint it's like gray area like that's a check that was a check so

yeah it's it's been a little tricky i will say i think the reps have gotten better

with it and the as players are still like learning as well uh because i feel like

there were a lot of open ice hits and i don't think they're supposed to be open

ice hits and then like they were like letting it go and then you're like okay uh

but i I'd say overall we've gotten a lot better at it. And I know at one point,

Ottawa had like a hitting coach come in and kind of like teach us different things.

And they had said at the time, like the biggest thing is learning how to take the

head. He's like, none of like you girls don't really know how to like receive it.

And that's where like injuries can happen. So I do think, I know I believe we had

like a, I think Ryan Getsloff came in during like our week for the PW last year.

We kind of like talked about like hitting a little bit and I think it's like

working on keeping your head up like knowing contact is going to come right and to

be prepared for it more. But I love the hitting aspect. It definitely plays into my

game. So personally, I love it and it helps where I don't have to like hold it in

or hold it back at all. I'm like, I'm going into the boards to battle. I find

sometimes I forget that I am allowed to hits. I have to remember that I can go

because for so long I was getting penalties all the time. So I had to learn to

rein it in. And so that's been an adjustment period for me.

But I think last year I got a lot better at it. Oh, yeah. I would say that. I

wouldn't want to go one on one against you. I'll say that. Now, here's another

interesting thing for you is that the PWHL and International Hockey, double IHF

hockey, Olympic hockey, they're very different, right? So, you know,

do you think the Olympic level or the AAHF level is going to bend the rules with

this either? Because I don't see them doing that. They're very strict on calling

things like that. And it's not just hitting. Like if your helmet falls off in a

game, it's a penalty, you know what I mean? Like they're to the book to the last

second. That was other thing in international hockey I wasn't ready for you know in

America it's the last minute to play and it's maybe a trip they're not calling it

in double IHF you're getting called for a trip they don't wait so how do you how

are you going to compartmentalize that I think that's definitely a hard part of it

for sure and especially because the games are so competitive at the international

level and the intensities up there and and like you want to be physical. Right. So

it's definitely difficult at times. I have found that they've let some of like the

board checking go. Like if someone happens to fall while you're battling and I don't

feel that they call that as much anymore unless like it's a big hit. Like and then

they call it like if you're fully extending sort of thing. But if you're just

rubbing out and then the person happens to fall, I find that they're not really

calling that kind of stuff. But it will be interesting to see if they do eventually

change that role with now the PW being that way, with the Swedish League being that

way. Right. So time will tell. Well, it's, it's, you know, here's the deal. It's

depending on on how old you are, you know, if you grew up 70s, 80s,

90s, you know, you see hitting as potential injury, right? Or the point of hitting

is to potentially hurt someone. And that is just not the way the game has played

anymore. Hitting is a tactical advantage to separate the player from the puck. There

is some intimidation factors with it for sure, but I don't think it's as egregious

as it was 20, 30 years ago. So, you know, one of the things I had heard from

other coaches is that, you know, the women's game is a lot different without the

hitting. It mimics more youth hockey. You've heard that. And the thing is, is that

I think that the physicality aspect is good because I think it is a tactic to

separate players from puck. I think that should be part of the game. Clearly,

clearly the PWHL athletes agree with that. You made another funny point. You go from

playing in the Pdub to playing Canada and you can't hit. That brings up another

comparison. You know, when we think of umpires in baseball, right where you know

realistically everybody's got a little bit different of a strike zone right like we

all want the robotic compass to come in and say that's a strike but different

umpires have different strike zones do you find the officials that there's you know

different officials allow less or more or have different rules and then do you even

ask about that do they talk to you about that before the game the refs no and I'm

going to be honest with you. I do not remember refs. Like that is not one of my

foretays. Like so many girls are like, oh, this ref does this and calls this. And

I'm like, who is that one? Like I literally have no idea. So I cannot answer that

question to be honest with you. No, I appreciate the honesty. I mean, it's just

interesting to think because, you know, they all have their guidelines. But when we

When we talk about, again, the new kind of buzzword is competitive contact. What

constitutes a check versus competitive contact, you know, and they're going to have

to have discussions on that too. And that's on the governing bodies to figure that

out, right? Now, the next burning question is going to be this, the pro game,

the Olympic game, even the collegiate game, becoming very physical. I'll use my own

daughter. My daughter's 10. She's on a 10 U team. So she's nine on a 10 U team.

Right. 10 new girls team. Now the question is going to come into every parent's

mind of, well, okay, they wouldn't hit normally until 14. Should I put them into a

position where they're going to learn how to hit? And again, I don't know. I'm not

saying I'm going one way or the other. I do think it's important to learn how to

play physical hockey period or else you're not going to play that much longer, right

yeah so what do you say to the youth parents and maybe the youth coaches about

yeah this is where we're heading right uh we should probably start teaching it or

no just keep it the way it is where are you at on that it's such a tough

question because then like if you're teaching it and then they start doing it in

games and they're getting penalties and it's not allowed yet but i think you're

right in the fact that, like, we can still teach, like, players to be physical.

Right. And because, like, you can still rub out against the boards, I think in that

sense, you can probably still teach players how to absorb the hit. Right. So in

little things like that, I think we could definitely start using that more in the

women's game. And I find that younger players are afraid to play physical with each

other, especially younger girl players. They're like, oh, I don't want them to hate

me or, like, you mad at me. And it's like, no, like, We're playing hockey. It's a

competitive physical sport. It's okay. You're actually helping your teammates by

playing more physical, by playing harder on them. So I think in that sense,

we could maybe teach it to them a little bit more with the physicality along the

boards. Yeah. And look, let's talk just progression from it. I'll talk as a coach

here. And I'll say this is not, what I'm about to say it's not limited to girls

hockey. We do this in boys hockey too. I think that there is some trepidation in

girls hockey to do some of the things I'm about to say. But a great example. Last

night we did the drill where they had two sticks or they had one stick and they

had to grapple. It's edge work, but you pull against your teammate, you push against

your teammate. It's an extremely physical drill. It can quickly turn into a dog pile

if you're not careful. And when we started it, you know, there was, we hadn't done

it yet. And our head coach did a great job. She's, she's wonderful. You know, I

don't want to, I don't want to push too hard. And we came around and said, no,

that's the drill. Yeah. Like you're supposed to pull. You're supposed to push. It

took a couple of minutes, but then everybody was doing it, right? I think it's

important to introduce all players to that level of physicality or that level of,

you know, push and tug, if you will, at the young ages. I think every age needs

to do a better job at 12 of teaching, checking, specifically what you said,

Haley, which is how to receive a check. That is just as important as giving a

check is understanding how to receive that force. And I actually think I know we're

supposed to be doing it. I don't see it enough. And I think that that should be

part of a girl's only curriculum is how to receive getting hit because here's the

deal whether you're hitting or not you're going to get hit it's going to happen

you're going to have a collision at some point the other thing too is that at the

younger ages haley like i see a lot of the you see that hesitation before making a

play and i think that not the aggression but the physicality helps you not do that

there really is no time to hesitate in hockey. The thinking is on the fly.

I always tell my players, especially the national team players, you got to live with

your decision. Like the whole game is built off of capitalizing other people's

mistakes. But I just think, again, from a coaching standpoint, we really should with

girls teams be having a similar physical curriculum that we teach the boys.

And I don't think we should hold back and ignore that because the rules don't allow

it. Now, again,

we don't teach big open ice hits either to boys. Like, that's not, I've never

taught an older team how to make an open ice hit. I've taught hip checks and I've

taught, you know, body positioning. But the real egregious hits, we don't teach

those. Those just happen, right? So I think that it's important to teach the

physical side of the game. And I'll say this is going to be real blunt, and I'm

going to say it, there will be a player out there that's willing to hit your kid

at some point, like whether you like it or not. At some point, someone's going to

come in and want to make the team and do that. So, Haley, I kind of throw it to

you for the ending here, but from a coaching standpoint, we should be teaching it.

I don't, I don't see any reason not to at this point. Yeah. Right. So the last

one, let's talk about the NCAA, right? You had a pretty nice NCAA career. I'd say

when you were there, it was physical, but not to the level you're seeing now on

the PWHL, correct? Correct. Right. So how did they coach that at that level?

Because that's kind of the intermediary, right? That's the in between stage. Well,

funny enough, so I played my like high school level hockey in Canada.

And it was called the PWHL at the time. That's funny. And it was so physical. Like

Canada was way more physical than America. Like it was wild. And I loved it,

obviously. But that's where I had my biggest transition going to college hockey

because it was way less physical than my high school time, which is kind of funny

to hear. But that's where I had to learn to rain. I got lots of penalties my

freshman year. Like I'll have to look back, but a lot of hitting penalties. And I

feel like I had maybe a little bit more like anger in front of the net and things

like that. But, well, wait, real quick, just because I know you. What time were you

waking up to do shots in the morning every time at that? Yeah. Like your life at

that time is pretty intense. Yeah, true, true.

So, wait, what was the question again? Oh, I Oh, just how did they teach

physicality at that level? Because, again, it is kind of a middle ground. Yeah, I

don't, honestly, like, I've really never been taught. My dad taught me physicality.

He always had, like, the blue pad out, and he was always hitting everyone, like,

going through the board, like, you know. Yeah, all coaches love that drill, by the

way. He loves it. It's his favorite.

So I was just always a physical player. But in college, we never really talked

about that, I feel like. It was never really a focal point because I feel like it

was called on pretty harshly by the refs. But that was especially in our East Coast

League. What I had heard about the like Western conference for college hockey is a

lot more physical than on the east side. So there's like variations in terms of

like the conferences from what I've heard. But then now I know they're a lot more

physical. Oh, yeah. So I think the game is just gradually getting more and more

physical as it's getting more and more skilled. Yeah. And again, I think it's being

viewed as a tactic, not an intent, right? Yes. And I think when we view hitting

that way or checking that way, it's part, it's, again, it's part of the game. I

don't know how else to say it. And like, you know, I don't want to say only the

strongest survive. That's not fair but there is an aspect of that to this right um

here's here's another question and i'll turn it this is going to be a not a

negative question but was there a welcome to the pw hl moment for you or was there

a welcome to hitting moment for you in that high school league where you got laid

out and you went okay like did that i feel like we all have i can remember some

of mine playing For sure. I think I'm more so PWHL comes to mind.

There's been a few hits where I'm like, oof. I felt that one, you know.

But other than that, nothing too crazy. I can't think of anything from high school

days, to be honest. I had one concussion. So that was from a pretty big hit. But

in the PDA, there's just a few girls who up the big bodies and it hurts to get

hit at that time. Yeah, depending if you're like not quite ready. I remember

actually Megan Keller got me pretty good one time. I was trying to break it out

and she just laid me out. I was like, oh, don't like playing against you.

Yeah, it's, it's an interesting moment when it happens. Like, because there's a hurt,

like it hurts, but there's a shock associated with it. That's what's tough to

explain. And the adrenaline keeps coming back. But for a moment, maybe you like lose

the air for a second or, you know. Yeah, it's a helpless feeling. And I'll tell

you, this is a quick one for me. I remember when I was growing up, there was a

point I was one of the taller players out there. And I remember thinking this is

going to be a massive advantage. And it was actually the shorter players that I

ended up being scared of because they'd come in for a hip check. and at my height

at that time a hip check was going right above my knee which if you get hit there

you're flipping yeah and I I distinctly remember the the motion and feeling of

flipping over thinking this this is not good before I landed but yeah look you get

back up you kind of dust yourself back off and you just you just keep going I I

mean, I think, I mean, I'll ask you your advice on this, but, you know, assuming

you're fine after a hit, like if you're injured, which should not happen. Right.

It's there. But after a hit, get up. Get right back up. All right. If you need to

go to the bench, go to the bench. But get up. Don't stay down. Right. What's your

thoughts on that? Like, we're talking about that moment of I don't like being hit

by you. Right. The proceeding moment is got to get up. Got to keep going. Yeah.

how do you mentally conquer that i mean the game's still going on so i and i also

like for my own pride i'm like i'm getting up right away and not showing that that

hurt right so i think there's that ego side to it a little bit as well uh but

yeah like the play still happening like get up get going and then honestly when you

get up and just get going it also hurts a lot less because you're so focused on

continuing to play so that's always my my motto there. I'm just say, if you do it

right, you won't feel it until the next day. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's that there

it is. There it is. All right. Well, there's a little bit of a shorter episode,

Haley, but like it's a topic that's come up. And for those of you listening, again,

love you all. If you're not watching the PWHL or women's college hockey, there's so

much of it available. Really, it's readily readily available. Watch it because it's

not just entertaining, but there's this side of the game that if you're coaching

girls or you have a girl playing, you really need to watch, right? And it's only

been the last three years that we've had the ability to watch to this level, and

it's an Olympic year. So just make sure you're paying attention and, you know, sit

down with all your kids and

Again, I'm not, I'm not just trying to boast up the PWHL, but it's awesome hockey,

right? Like, if you're not watching this, I'll say it, you're not a hockey fan. All

right? Like, like, let's just be period, right? Like, there's NHL, there's BW, if

you're not a hockey fan if you're not watching this stuff. So check out. Haley,

again, you were the subject today more than the co -host, but I appreciate your

insight. I know the audience does too. Yeah. Well, thank you. Appreciate it. Fun

topic to touch on. always maybe there'll be a part two of this in a few years all

right yeah that's good to do it for this edition of our girls play hockey uh for

haley i'm lee remember if you have any questions or you want us to expand upon

this topic maybe there's an aspect of the physicality we didn't talk about email us

a team at our kids playhockey dot com or there's a link accompanying the episode in

the description click on that leave your name your location let us know the the

question or if you just generally want to to ask a PWHL or Olympian a question, we

have one. She's here all the time every week on our girls play hockey. All right,

everybody have a good day. We'll see on the next episode. Take care. We hope you

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proud of it. But thanks so much for listening to this edition of Our Kids Play

Hockey, and we'll see you on the next episode.