Our Girls Play Hockey: Stathlete's Meghan Chayka On The Data Behind Greatness

Hello, hockey friends and families around the world, and welcome back to another edition of Our

Girls Play Hockey. It's Lee Elias with Mike Bonelli and I'm going to say it, Olympic gold medalist

Hayley Scamurra. Hayley, I promise you I won't do that every episode, but I think we get at least a

month. Please do. Please do. Thank you. You heard it right there.

Today's guest is someone helping shape the game at the highest levels from the front office to the

broadcast booth. Meghan Chayka is the co-founder of Stathletes, a leading hockey analytics company

that works with NHL teams and other professional organizations around the world. And through data

and performance insights, her company has helped teams make smarter decisions in scouting, player

evaluation and development. If you follow the NHL, you have seen her work. she's also brought that

expertise to fans as a broadcaster and an analyst helping break down the game in a way that makes

the numbers meaningful and accessible and of course other ways as well in a sport where leadership

roles off the ice have historically been limited for women Meghan has built a lane that didn't

really exist before and in doing so expanded what's possible for everyone so today we're talking

about analytics opportunity leadership all those words we love and what girls in hockey should know

about the many paths this game can open, girls and boys for that matter. Meghan, welcome to Our

Girls Play Hockey. Thank you for having me. That was a very nice intro. I have to take some notes

on what you said there. It was great. Thank you. So the broadcast will be available. You can grab

it. We always put those things up. No, thank you. Look, we take a lot of pride in our intros,

Meghan. And I'll tell you, again, I've been following your work for a long time. Obviously, you and

Hayley know each other. Mike as well. What you've created in this game should be celebrated,

should be talked about. And I'm just thankful we have the opportunity to do so today. But I want to

start here. You know, I'm going to guess you didn't grow up thinking, you know, I'm going to work

in hockey analytics because that role doesn't exist. Maybe it did. But when did you first realize

that? Yeah. Where did this come from? And for the audience listening, how do you even discover

careers in hockey? that like maybe aren't even there yet i don't know if you do and i think that's

the thing about the economy in general especially if you're in tech or the startup world if you're

now in between 10 and 20 years old your job probably doesn't exist right now right there's just not

an idea of where the market is going whether that's ai machine learning automation computer vision

certain parts of engineering or computer science, there's a lot out there that's evolving, yet to

be discovered, different roles that appear every year. So for me, for sure, it was more like the

framework and the background that was important to me. It was like the process of understanding

different parts of the industry. It wasn't necessarily like this is my job and this is what's going

to be. It was more like this is a river. I'm going to step in and do the best that I can to manage

and take on more and more clients as we built up our company. We officially incorporated in 2010,

but we started sort of working, dabbling in hockey probably 2007, 2008.

So it's been a long time. Back before when data like wasn't cool at all, the Money Mall movie

wasn't out. People just didn't really want to hear about feedback from a computer, you know,

like X's and O's and that weren't like coach or system based. So you really had to like change

people's mindsets to get them to buy into using something outside the scope of what their current

workflow. was so yeah it's a long way of saying that i think you can create what you want to do um

and for us starting staff leads it was more just like working one-on-one with players and that's

how we first were getting sort of cash flow in and realized there was a gap where people just

didn't have a lot of data or insight into what they were doing on a team base but also on the

league perspective so our clients now are from anywhere from the league so we do work with leagues

including the nhl and then teams players agents sportsbooks media digital and then i do you know

other roles like espn tsn msg with a buffalo saber So that's gone really nicely this year.

And then I'm a data scientist in residence at a university and I sit on a lot of boards as well.

Yeah, if everybody knows about Buffalo, it's Hayley, right? Yeah, exactly. So Meghan,

when parents hear analytics, it can usually kind of feel a little bit abstract to them. Maybe

they're not sure like what they can take from it. So at like the simplest level for people who

aren't really good at math or science, how does the data actually help hockey teams make better

decisions? I think from a youth perspective, it's not to overcomplicate it, even something that

could be as simple as where you're getting shots from. So there's a concept called expected goals,

which is basically just the quality of your shots. How good is that scoring chance? How good is

that shot attempt? However you want to define it, the closer you get to the net, even in the NHL,

the more likely you're going to score. And as we know, of course, you can say to everyone, get

closer to the net. But like in the NHL, you're going to get a high stick. You're going to get

people that are going to hit you. As you get closer, that time and space becomes more valuable.

So both defensively, people want to keep you out of that slot area. But offensively,

just looking at where you're creating those chances, how those chances are created are important.

So anything from like cross-ice passmen. passes to goalie movement um all of those have a better

expected goal value so a better quality chance more likely you'll score and you can see that things

that translate in the nhl do also translate in youth hockey um so yeah i think there's just like

little things that you can take whether it's charting whether that's you know a company that

services more of the youth market um And then if you want to get more granular,

passing, so the quality of your passes. Are they clean? Are they in the skate?

Are they in front of a player? Zone exits and entries. Are you skating with a puck?

If so, how fast? How long? How much possession time do you have? So how long is a puck on your

stick? uh and then from there is that contributing to your team winning so it's kind of the end

goal is you can be a really great player but if your team doesn't win what does that look like too

for the broader picture i know mike and i are nodding our heads up and down right now yeah well

here's the deal is that that Meghan we use a lot of the stuff that you perform or you bring to the

table because when it comes to youth hockey when i coach at that level i want to know what higher

i'll just say higher level hockey is doing because we have to break that down to the youth level

and say, okay, what skill sets do we need to develop, whether it's 8, 15, or 18, to help them

understand that side of the game? In a time when hockey IQ has notoriously been lower at the youth

levels, for the coaches listening to this episode, it's important for you to look at this data as

well. Not that you need to apply. Hey, the NHL teams are doing this. We need to do this.

That's not what I'm saying. Let's four check like the Florida Panthers. Probably not.

Right, exactly. But like you said, like, hey, where are goals going in? It might be smart to teach

kids those areas and then to give them the skill sets to get to those areas. And I don't think we

do a good enough of that job of that at the youth level. Mike, I don't know if you have thoughts on

that, too. No, well, I mean, the game is the game, right? I think so, Meghan, you know, coming into

a field, right? A, you're a computer geek. You're a woman. You haven't played in NHL.

Like all of these things, like old school hockey guys are like, ah, analytics.

My eye test is better than your computer. Like I'm a money ball guy, right? I love that.

I love that piece of the game and figuring out, we talk about it on our show all the time.

Like a team is not player one to 16 skill. It's the team.

It's what can you do? Do you get pucks out? Can you get the pucks first? Can you put place pucks in

the right spaces? Can you talk a little bit about as our girls and boys get older, how analytics

really does start affecting them? And because it's getting earlier and earlier in the age group,

like how important it is to understand what. your own analytics are when you're moving up the

ranks? Good question. Yeah, I think there's always a dynamic of you get an agent involved too at a

certain level. And we're seeing that younger and younger. So we do work with some agents through

their draft eligible players as well. So I think you do have to take some ownership and understand

your player development journey. um take control of skill development as well for us even something

as simple and when you talk about the eye test you know you know if a player is fast or not but

historically you've never really known how fast um now with tracking data we can actually track

speeds without a hardware on the player so basically a computer software sees a player tracks a

bounding box or tracks a frame of a player and then it estimates it really closely the speed of

that player same with the speed of a shot so we can actually track the puck now without having

hardware on the puck it's just from a software program so before it was like this player in finland

looks really fast but maybe they have like a choppy short stride it makes them look a little faster

eye test wise and they only watch like a handful of games of their whole season so they got a good

like couple open ice or like four check times and they were like, wow, that player really picked up

speed. But now we can track all of their games. So if we have the game tape or the video from an

arena, we know exactly the speeds of all the players. We know exactly the speeds of all their

shots. within a certain realm of, you know, having some error from one way or another,

a little bit faster, a little bit slower. But in general, the technology is really good now. So you

don't really hide from analytics anymore. There's not like you can't take off shifts. You can't,

you know, you can't just say, oh, the scout's in the crowd. I'm going to, I know he's going to

leave in the third period. So I'm going to have a good first two periods.

The computer is sticking around, you know, for everything. So the nice thing is, is, you know, we

track in between six to 10,000 games a year. So we can have full seasons of all of these players.

And then we have benchmarks too. So we know Connor McDavid at the Erie Otters, what he looked like,

how he skated, the quality of his shots, the quality of his passes, how fast he was skating. Not to

scare anybody off because it's not all about analytics. Right. I think to your point, you have to

know, like you can you can look at all that information. But then it really does become a coach and

a scout and a GM to say, yeah, I know what I'm seeing. But this person eats pucks.

They get to pucks quicker than anybody else. They're on the ice for less goals against than

somebody else. Like these are all things you can compile from analytics. Yeah. Well, that's

analytics too. Like analytics isn't going to say, hey, you know, that guy played with like a broken

arm for three months. Like, so I think there's still the component of the coach. But I think to

your point, like this is not a time for players when become a teenager on to take days off.

Like it really does become you are a product of all of your data, whether we like it or not.

This is this is where we're at. And then maybe don't want to play three months with a broken arm

unless it's like your rating might go down.

But I think your point, though, about, you know, you know, if I'm if I'm a scout and I'm looking

and I want to look and take the 300 players that are out in my database and whittle them down to

the 25 right wingers I need to look at. i can now say these are the attributes i want in a player

and i can get to that quicker so it's just streamlining that yeah yeah or even i like the red flags

you know a lot of times it's how a player won't um get to the next level so maybe they can't make

pass under pressure or they won't see certain passing lanes or they can't make a dangerous pass

they're making really simple plays and then that won't translate to you know the ahl or chl or

onwards the nhl the ultimate goal for in the men's side or the pwhl for that matter there's only

certain amount of roster spots there's women that play overseas that are all competing for you know

now this premium league and you have to figure out how to like get that pipeline strong but then

also be able to direct people in certain ways of like how to get better to the next level so i do

think that Yeah, analytics is definitely like that tool where you could say, hey,

this person, you know, on speed burst isn't really accelerating fast enough or they're not creating

quality shot attempts. They're just, they're too slow. They can't do one timers. There's like,

watch what they're doing. Is that right or wrong? Did we get the scouting report incorrect or is

that very accurate? I think there's so many ways that you can attack it through data that it's not

necessarily like one way is the right way. I think it's just getting like a better answer for your

team. So I got a quick one for you. I was laughing when you were talking about stats analytics

because I literally the other day saw Matt Kachuk doing an interview talking about like,

I really need to work on my skating. I'm pretty slow. And the interviewer was like, come on, you're

not, you're the Stanley Cup champion. And I swear to you, within 24 hours, I saw the stat of.

No, Matt Kachuk is one of the slowest skaters in this league. He's the only player to knock it over

20 miles per hour this season. And I was like, that's amazing that, like, we were able to access

that information right away. So, you know, it's funny. Was someone talking? Sorry. I was going to

say. Yeah, I said you're right. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You would know, right? I was saying, too,

that, like, it was funny when you talked. I was watching Hayley lean in because, you know, there's

two sides to this, too, right? Hayley in the sense of, like. obviously it's great for coaches we're

talking about this as a player it's invaluable it's just completely invaluable information i'm kind

of asking you about that as a player right because it's you want to know you want to know

everything yeah i love hearing the you know advanced analytics for sure and it's something you know

the coaches will go over with you sometimes and i'm like how is there so much data like how is

there so much like things you can think about in your game. And I think it's really interesting.

And I think it could also show the value of players that might not show up on a stat sheet that we

talk about a lot. And, you know, I find it really fascinating to hear all the different things.

Like when you were talking about passes under pressure, like, are they making those passes? Are

they making the safe play more often? Are they not trying to, you know, get out of their comfort

zone?

And so kind of a question I had was like, what data do you look at in terms of to see whether a

person's hockey IQ is high enough to make it to the next level. Oh, geez.

Yeah, that's a good question. Because I do think it's a blend of a lot of what type of player you

are, as you're saying. I mean, not a lot of people can complete passes, especially with contacts

like Matthew Kachuk. For a while there, especially in Calgary, he was doing a lot of passes from

behind the net. Really creative, really smart, but just because he wasn't scared behind there

either of any sort of physicality. Mitch Marner's like that as well. He sees these passing lanes

that some players do, but most don't. And then he also has a skill set to be able to complete those

passes. So we can see things like that surface in the data year over year with consistency.

And I think that level of creativity is part coaching, part player. So you see players get in

systems where they're a little bit more rigid, maybe. Maybe one like a Carolina, they shoot a lot

from the point, a lot of defenseman shots. So you get like... players cycle in and out of that type

of system and they're just they seem not to fit sometimes you see them kind of leave whereas like

um you see like a montreal canadians martin saint louis he really lets them do like a free-flowing

creative game seems to give them a lot more uh room for error but still requires them to work

really hard so defensively they still have some structure um so you kind of have to have both the

personnel and the coaching and then that communication to make that work and then the data and

analytics that goes to support, you know, who can be creative and how is like the other piece of

the puzzle that then the GM tries to like move in and out players that either fit or don't fit

within that system. Yeah. So I have a two-parter here and I'm going to, I'm going to hijack

Meghan's interview a little bit for Hayley. How are you using Meghan's data to scout opponents?

Like when you, when you as a player, when you, when you have that data in front of you, how does

that help you as a player? And Meghan can all players like at the lowest levels,

let's just talk about like, like, you know, 16, 17 year old boys and girls. Can they access minimum

amounts of data to scout other players and other teams? You know, probably you,

Hayley, first. I think for myself personally, I use it with the coaches to like see how I'm playing,

how I can upgrade opportunities, how I can maybe create more offensive chances for our team,

maybe how I can stop things defensively. And I think in like a team. aspect we use it a lot to like

you know how does let's say boston for example typically like attack like where are most of their

goals coming from are they off of turnovers are they off of the rush are they off of ozone play um

for our team as a whole i know we had data that was saying that like most of our goal like goals

and scoring chances are coming off of ozone play and less off of zone entry so how can we get more

off of zone entries So different things like that is really interesting to look at and kind of see

how we can, you know, improve on a global level on our team. You know,

I think, too, from a youth hockey standpoint, again, I always like to equate it back. I'm

fascinated with the pro side of this. And for the audience listening, I know you are, too. So we

will keep doing that. But I think from a youth hockey standpoint, you know, what we're uncovering

here is like not every team is the same. And, you know. Youth coaches, you've got to know what your

assets are, and you've got to coach those assets. I see this every year. You've got a coach going,

we've got to play a 2-1-2, which is dated to begin with, but that doesn't matter. You don't have

the players for that system, and you're putting your kids at a disadvantage for that system. So I

don't think you have to – Meghan, this is a question, right? I don't think you have to look that far

to study a little bit to find about – you know maybe what kind of similar teams are out there what

are they using to be successful and the data is there to support it Yeah,

and I think there's always trends in hockey too. They always call even the NHL a copycat league.

Whoever wins the Stanley Cup, everyone kind of looks around and says, is that the style of hockey

that works? And I think the answer is, to your point, you have to play to the strengths.

And also like youth hockey is about player development more than it is about winning, in my

opinion. Even at the CHL level, AHL level, you're just trying to get to that next step.

And you have a... Winning is... awesome but being the best version of yourself and as a hockey

player i think is like the ultimate mountain to climb right so i think like not putting too much

pressure on you year over year of what you're doing and putting more pressure on skill cell

development having fun creating the you know the type of um person and player that will have you

excel and have that mindset to win in the future i think that's far more important process-wise

than success in the moment um so yeah i would be worried like matthew kachuk is about skating

skating always translates and then from there it's like your shot too right i mean there's so much

research now on the new age shot of the um austin matthews conor mcdard yeah right it's just um

There's just so much out there that is changed in terms of player development that I think the

sooner that you're kind of on, you know, the skill set that will help you succeed, the better off

you'll be. Well, you've just affirmed all 500 episodes of the show when you just said about

development first, because that is something we preach here. And I think it's wonderful that you

said that, you know, one more thing I want to ask before Hayley, I jump to your question here.

you're the perfect person to ask this question to you so look i want to say this too i'm a huge fan

of stats and i find them fascinating i love looking at them i love the work that you do um and mike

alluded to this earlier there is a human element and you had said that you know that's where the

coaching kind of comes in a little bit over the last 15 years maybe 10 15 years i have seen in big

moments coaches make really great decisions and really bad decisions based i think on data you know

the ones that come to my mind and i'll be a little more broader is like you know you're in the

world series And the data is saying, pull the pitcher right now when that guy is really hot and

he's not getting rid of the game this season and they pull the pitcher and they lose the game. We

just saw this happen a couple of years ago or in the Super Bowl. You don't give it to the guy on

the goal line that runs the ball in on the goal line. You decide to throw a pass that might become

intercepted. You know, a lot of these are data based decisions. Now, adversely, adversely.

Right. Data would say, don't put your older player with a torn ACL on the ice with two minutes left

in the game. to try and tip a pocket in a gold medal game against Canada. But that decision was not

made on data. That was made on who she is and gut. Obviously, I'm talking about Hillary Knight.

So, Meghan, my question to you is this, right? It's not that it's like, when do you trust the data,

when do you not? My question is, there is a human spirit element that maybe cannot be quantified

here that when you mix that with data, I think you get sometimes really good results. But it is

going to the... the slot machine a little bit, right? Like you got to try and read it, but am I

right or wrong in thinking that's what kind of great coaching comes in? Yes, I think you're always

playing the probabilities as well. And that's why those decisions are made, especially when you're

looking at pitching. I mean, the World Series is tough because that's one game. I'm also a Blue

Jays fan. So the World Series is extra tough for me to talk about. But the coin flip of that is you

can never go back and replay that, keeping that pitcher in. If you keep that pitcher in, they're

usually good to whatever, 80 to 90 pitches. You keep them in and they get a grand slam off them.

You look really dumb. So I think people never think of the opposite of like, what if we didn't,

you know, take that fourth down? Or what if we didn't, like there's so many calls of pulling the

goalie too late or too early, putting Hillary Knight on that you wouldn't know. Like maybe you put

someone else and that exact same occurrence happens. You really just don't know. So yeah,

I think that there's a lot of what ifs in sport and that. For sure, having a great coaching staff

that understands the psychology of what's going on and being able to take out maybe their own

emotion into making the right call from their perspective, that's something that's highly paid for.

You look at even NHL coaches. There's ones that make over $5 million a year, and there's a reason

for that, that they're paid a premium to make the right calls in really high-pressure situations.

Needless to say, I would believe over a large sample size that if you're going on your gut feel

versus probability, you're going to lose. Yeah, but I think to your point,

like your job, right, as an analytics expert is to provide the data for a coach that's on the

ground and they say, okay, well, I have all this information. And I think is that, you know, can

you just explain how important it is then for us as coaches to understand the analytics as early as

possible? and don't depend on it for a week. Like, that's not what analytics is. It's not like,

what have you done this week? It's what have you done over the body of work of your team,

right? I mean, it's like, if you're losing these small sample sizes, then obviously it's a very

hard data set. But if you can now say, like, I'm on the side of youth hockey that,

like, I'm on a mission to have no tryouts anymore. Like, we have so much data out there for kids

that we can just say, I can tell just based off of these. 50 kids you've sent me who should be on

this team who should be on this team who should be on this team i think but if i if i'm only

looking at a week's worth of data. You just talk about how that's not as efficient as saying, well,

listen, we're supplying you with so much information. You have to be able to parse what you need in

order to get to the answer you want to get to. Yeah, and I think just to inform your decision too,

a lot of models have assumptions baked in them as well. There's not like one way to calculate

expected goals, one way to calculate your goals added or goals above expected for goaltenders.

There's all sorts of different modeling techniques and you can choose what data sets to use or not

use. So I think as a coach or someone in youth, it's just understanding. what that data means how

it's been calculated maybe even how it's been collected like was it automated was it manual so was

like a person tagging it was it a computer software that just like has some error measures because

for me sometimes i want to go right to like the source like if you said that was a bad scoring

chance i want to actually see it and kind of come to terms about why that was and then how to like

course correct so you don't have to just listen to like someone telling you one piece of

information or a small sample size you can do your own research and use your own you know

methodologies and your background in hockey to understand it too not not not to not so if you so i

guess i'm asking too if you're sitting there watching a a a shot attempt and a goal goal attempt

and ai is saying that's a goal attempt and you're like well that really wasn't an attempt like that

wasn't a good scoring opportunity that wasn't a good sure Are you overriding that with is that your

then is that your intellectual property inserting into that data? Or is it like,

you know, so so there is some user need, right? There is some you have to have some background in

looking at and watching hockey. Well, we collect enough data that we don't have to make any

adjustments. But if you're only just tracking the location, let's say, and the type of shot or

something, you can make adjustments into what you believe is a scoring chance at a youth level.

Once you get enough data, I mean, we have over a million data points a game. Our models are pretty

sophisticated, so I wouldn't normally make any sort of adjustments. I would just understand that if

I'm giving advice to a player or a team, that there are some anomalies that occur or there are

some... luck essentially like some teams just get lucky some years and that's that too um and i

mean that's part of a stanley cup run too is a lot of times it's a hot goalie and some luck and

that's the difference between you know is that someone that gets knocked out of the first round in

game seven and someone that wins the stanley cup right i mean you're gonna play one game in the

gold medal game even with the men's side i mean we had them expected goals as like three for the

team canada and one and a half for us and It's just the way things go.

Hellebuck played really well. And, you know, there was a couple of, you know, Connor McDavid misses

a breakaway. That rarely happens. Nathan McKinnon misses an empty net. He probably won the Stanley

Cup this year because of it. And, you know, it's just what it is, right? What's the analytics of a

shot in the crease going into the net? Correct. Very high. Very high.

Yes. Yes. And, I mean, Hellebuck doesn't make that in Winnipeg in the playoffs. I can tell you

that. Not to throw shade, but, you know, there's stuff that just happens.

Apparently Nike played the odds on that game as well by not making enough USA jerseys. Sure. We

found that out. Go ahead, Hayley. Yeah. All good. Meghan, I kind of want to shift to like you

personally and just, you know, you being in this space, it's like overwhelmingly male, obviously.

I kind of want to hear about the challenges you may be faced early on and what advice you might

have for young women who want to step into roles in hockey, whether it's analytics or coaching or

media.

That's a good question. I mean, I think I still face challenges in terms of what people perceive me

as or the limitations that. some people put on others um and it could be a wide variety of reason

too even like age you know typically there's older executives in hockey um and background too a lot

of people have played in the nhl come from a really strong hockey background playing um not

necessarily like working as executives so i think there's an idea of like what the mold should just

be and that people have either earned it or like should be in a position and so for me i just try

to think of like confidence kindness and win-win so how i can help others achieve their goals i'm

being extremely competent so just attacking every element of what i do with curiosity with focus

and making sure that there's like an output and a tie-in to like industry and then yeah just being

really kind like i've met a lot of cool people i mean some of the executives i thought that would

be the scariest or the least um interested in analytics have been the most and i think that kind of

shows that like people want a competitive advantage both from executive level and actually from

like nhl players it's always like the best players like the top 10 goal scorers that are like how

can i be better at face-offs or I think this part of my game is not as good as, you know, X

person. How do I be Connor McDavid? And it's like, yeah, we all want to be him. So, but yeah,

I think for me, it's just like keeping my head down and making sure that when I can add value,

I do. And I kind of move through different groups with. just the energy that I want in my life too.

And I think that there's a lot more doors that will open that way. Instead of perceiving you as

being like an outsider, I always think that I can bring a different perspective. And I think people

really appreciate that because hockey is unforgiving. Like there's no team, especially in the NHL,

that does well all the time. There's always lows. And whenever there's a low, people look around

and say like, how can I be better?

I love that answer, Meghan. I'll tell you, too, along those lines, we talk a lot on this show about

trailblazing, right? You're a trailblazer in your own right. Hayley is. We talk about every time

Hayley steps on the ice, she's trailblazing in some form. And I do love to say that we tease her,

but this is so true. In just a quarter, she's played in the most watched game,

the most attended game, and she's going to be on the first televised game nationally in history.

like you're always trailblazing yeah it's it's amazing time and you know we talk about the power of

again for for the kids specifically young girls for this show but but everyone right that until you

see it it doesn't exist right like it may not exist in your mind i think there's a lot of young um

hockey people out there that see what you're doing and go now hey i i can do that right so you know

i'm interested in your thoughts to them about if they want to step into a leadership role they want

to step into a role like yours you know what can they do now as a young person to kind of explore

that and and and you know dive in because you said it earlier in the show like the job might not

even exist yet right so so if i'm a kid at home like well how am i training for a job that doesn't

exist and i you know i would love your thoughts on that i think if you want to go into anything in

like sports tech analytics definitely lean into the technical side so if you do like math stats

physics anything computer science coding all of that ai elements i i don't see that market slowing

down right i think that there's more and more need for very sophisticated technical skills um so if

you are on that side at all or that appeals to you going into college or even in high school now i

know there's a lot of like coding robotics all sorts of courses um so certainly you know challenge

yourself i was always like the best of my class in school grade wise. So I think just like get

really good marks, do more than you need to. I always like audited courses. I did a lot of like

startup courses. It was kind of the genesis of like the shark tank years when I was in university.

So I did a lot of pitches. I tried to start like a baby bottle company at one point.

And I think just like pushing yourself out of your comfort. zone too, being well-rounded.

And then I played a lot of sports too. I'm over six foot. So I played all like the basketball,

baseball, volleyball, rowing. I always, you know, was the captain, the pitcher. I understood a lot

about analytics too, because I was a baseball pitcher. And then I also played a lot of basketball.

So I think for me, I wish I could go back and tell myself to enjoy myself more in sports. Like it

was always for me, like I got to win. I got to be the best. I got to score 30 points. I got to

strike everyone out. And I think I learned a lot about leadership, but I definitely missed out on

joy looking backwards. And when I was growing up too, there was kind of not that like I'm Canadian

as well. So like we don't really have that flesh out of a college route for women athletes at that

point. So I just saw it as a bit of a means to like get to the next level. And I thought I would be

in finance or I have an economics background to economic stats.

So. Yeah, I was just very open to like what that career path looked like. I definitely have more of

a growth mindset. I'm not really a fixed person. So I think if you could untether yourself to a

certain result, like I wanted to go to med school, but I was okay with like not going. And I just

like did the best next thing in terms of like, what was my next step? And that's what led me to

now, you know, have. 200 employees and run, you know, the data company from sort of the ground up

and and build that the process to be able to work at the highest level.

But certainly it's a building block. Like you don't need to just say like, I have to get there in

five years or 10 years. There's, you know, incremental gains when I think you put that focus into

academics and then sort of the technical skills. Well, I'll say this too, Meghan, you're not afraid

to try. And I think that for young kids, that's an important thing too. Like this was not your

first idea, right? This is the one you're known for now, but you said it, baby bottle,

try there. You think about med school. Like, I love that you bring that up because I think

sometimes with kids, especially. um they get a tunnel vision on well this is what i have to be

right well i was i was gonna go there right people try and do that and it's like you know the truth

is this for the kids listening parents listening right like you have to explore these things that's

the only way you're gonna find your way to where you're probably you know gonna be right um and we

talk about with my businesses too like look look this is not my first podcast right like like the

business i own now is not my first business like i had to explore So I love that you brought that

up because it's whether we're talking about hockey and positioning or what you're going to do when

you grow up, it's you got to try things. Yes. And failure is a big part of the journey.

Like even now, people always ask me on panels, when was the last time you failed? And I always say

today. some point today i sent out an email i asked for something i pushed a little too hard that's

okay like it's okay to be like comfortable with failing too and trying better i try not to think of

it as like a win or a loss i try to think of it as a win or a lesson yeah and it just helps my

mindset yeah well and you're living right that's we're all trying to find our way through that um

the next question i have for you this is like one that the audience is gonna kill me if i don't ask

too right When you look at the most successful players, and I'm going to say consistently here.

So I'm not necessarily just talking about like a Conor McDavid here, even though he's very

consistent. What are the consistent things that you see across the board in those players?

Like what are, you know, if you're going to ask it as a youth question, you know, okay, what are

the five things that you see at the pro level that are consistent that maybe we could start

thinking about as youth athletes now that could help us out down the line?

So I would go back to like the markers of what I see in analytics. So expected goals, the quality

of shots, which means the quality of your own shot. So improving that, your vision,

so your ability to see passing lanes, make difficult passes, move the puck, your skating.

That's pretty self-evident, right? The better skater you can be, the better you can puck

transport, the better you can have higher possession time. Deceptiveness. So areas of your game

that aren't necessarily obvious and making it non-obvious when you're going to shoot, when you're

going to pass, how to find space and time from that perspective as well. I would put that as a

five. And that kind of goes with like getting to the slot, being able to like deal with the

physicality because as you move up, it obviously gets more and more physical. And so you don't need

to be like big and strong necessarily, but you need to be able to like manage that. So going at a

defenseman with your stick on the ice in front of you, not looking left or right, just going right

at that D is not one of the five. I just wanted to make sure that our audience knows that. You

know, Mike and Hayley, you know, Meghan, listen, I'll tell you why it's an unbelievable answer,

because I think we ignore most of those five in the youth game right now. I'm also not a

development person, but that's just from like a bird's eye perspective of what I like. Here's where

I'll affirm what you said, right? Again, you can break those five things down into developmental

skill sets. And I'm telling you that we do not work enough on those skill sets, right? Like I can

give you a good example. I always like this. I do a drill and I'm not patting myself on the back, I

promise. I'm just saying this is a drill. I do a drill where I have my skaters go 25% speed, 50%

speed, 75% speed and 100. And then I start changing up which one I want. And I'm teaching them

deceptive speed by understanding what is your 25%, what is your 75%.

And then we see it applied in the game, right? Most players, for those of you listening, if you

asked your kid what's 70% of your fastest speed and you put them on the ice, they won't be able to

do it. They kind of know a hundred or nothing, right? These are little things that you can teach

while you're teaching stride work, right? That translate heavily to the game. All right.

I was teasing about that. We see this all the time. The kid going right at the defenseman without

thinking, but things like doing a drills where find the open ice is the goal of this drill. It's

not to score. it's get the puck or get yourself to open ice these are things you can start doing at

a really young age right again how it's explained and how it's applied may change depending on the

age but you can teach an eight-year-old to find open space right and the one thing you did say

that i think we all agree on is skating right you can never work on your skating enough i hope

everybody hearing listens to that mike i don't know if you had thoughts on this too because like we

see this stuff all the time Yeah, I mean, well, I mean, I think from Meghan's perspective, like how

she's looking at it is that is that just the pure data driven stats like,

OK, this is this is what happens. This is I see the best players in the world. And I guess my

question would be like almost like how do I dumb that down to to a level of youth hockey?

where you know we the greatest thing like i can't even imagine if i had this kind of data when i

was 14. just because i was really you know pretty critical of my own game and i don't know if this

would have really screwed me up even worse like i think it's like oh my god like i turned the puck

over all the time on the blue line. This is why I'm not playing.

How can players use those? What would you say? Forget about five,

but three core things that you see and then your analytical eye says, of course this player is not

getting to the next level because these are the things that a scout is telling me are the biggest

red flags in their play. Again, when they get to your level, Meghan, they're all great.

Correct. Correct.

And you're like, what is the difference? Like, why is it? It's not personality. You know,

of course, there's other player pieces. But what are those data sets that a player can look at and

say, I can self-evaluate and look and I can really dig in and say, oh, of course,

this is what the coach is seeing because this is what the data is telling him. You start to get

really picky right at an NHL level. And it is really challenging,

too, because. There's a lot of injuries in hockey as we know. So I think there's always that

constant ebb and flow of injury prevention, trying to like make sure that they're okay in terms of

their return to play.

So you kind of said it right though. There's not one thing. I mean, we have hundreds and hundreds

of metrics and different models that look at different quality of every element,

action of the game.

It just depends on your deployment and the type of role that you're playing with your team. Like we

see some players that do excellent on one team and in the NHL and then move to another team, like I

said, and just do not fit in for whatever reason and are trying to, you know, you're trying to ask

a third line player to play on the top line and have the hardest defensive pairings against them.

You're going to have a lot of problems. So I think it's just at a lower level,

it's just going back to the fundamentals, shooting, skating, passing. puck moving,

zone entries, exits, battles too,

like how often you're turning the puck over, what are those turnovers like, and how do you prevent

that too. So I think if you just dig into your data a bit more of when you're contributing

negatively and why, and then see if you can course correct some of that or at least understand it.

And then there's interesting things too like you know puck recoveries from you know shot attempts

like uh Jake Gensel like he played really well with Sidney Crosby because he got the puck back a

lot on on shots he got a lot of shot recoveries and he'd be able to then shovel it back to Sidney

Crosby and he would stuff in the net it just worked and it went on you know now in Tampa he's doing

the same thing and you kind of like get your secret sauce of what you're good at and that's some of

intuition some of you know an indescribable element where they read the play in the game a lot

faster than other players and they can put it all together um and some of that can be worked on and

some of that just is it's just the player that's why they're so good can i just ask one question

then if you're if i'm an 18 year old girl or boy and i'm looking to move on the game and i have

that data Like, I have that stat. I have the Jake Enzel stat. Like, the coach doesn't see it. Like,

that's just like, hey, can I tell you this stat, coach? I want to make your team. And guess what? I

recover more rebounds than anybody else in the league. I think that's such a powerful thing to have

as a player to be able to say, like, I'm advocating for myself, and it doesn't show up on the

scoreboard. It might be the second assist. It might be the – like, the bottom line is I'm just –

you know, I'm in a place where I can create opportunity because I'm – Thinking ahead,

I'm smarter than a lot of the other players that are doing flybys. And I know this guy is going to

pass the puck. It's going to go on that. I'm going to get the rebound and I'm going to get the puck

back. I think that's such a valuable tool as you're an older player advocating for yourself. It

almost becomes like a resume builder for a hockey player. Like I'm going to take analytics and use

it to my advantage. It can't be just like your point. It's not, can't just be all the negative

stuff. You got to take the good, the good stats. and and and really show those off and i think

that's uh you know that's a great thing for a player to look at and say well i have access to this

now we're we're only the the guy up in the booth the only one that used to have access to that now

the players to your point like have access to it on the bench the next shift right so i think it's

like it's such an amazing tool to have you know in front of them not a question Hayley Hayley knows a

little bit about net front presence and and puck retrievals yeah

Yeah, that's definitely my bread and butter right there. So I was like, okay, I'm a Jake Gensel,

I'll take that.

But I wanted to kind of talk to you about just like the future of women in hockey roles, right?

Like we're seeing more women on the benches and front office and analytics, ownership groups. But

I'm kind of curious, like just from your point of view, where do you see like the biggest growth

coming in the next five to 10 years on that front? And like what still needs to change in order to

make more women in those roles? Well, there's not a ton of women already. So I think that there's

just so much more growth in every department. And I think the PWHL too is awesome because I think

sometimes people think historically like the men's league is like the top of the mountain and just

everything else is a climb. But I think that you could do it both ways, right? You could work in

the NHL, go to the PWHL, you go to the PWHL, go to the NHL. So I think it just elevates everyone to

have other leagues and this elite level athletes, both men and women. So the potential,

I think, in both sides, and, you know, we see like a lot of men coaching women. I see the same

thing with like women can coach men. That's no problem. It's, you know, a skill set. It's a

relationship. It's the same elements of the game. that you're dealing with.

And I don't think that it should be just capped either way. Because I get a lot of times too, like,

why don't you just work in women's hockey? And I have to like explain to people, well, even like 15

years ago when we started, there wasn't really a market for women's hockey. So that wasn't my

journey. And that's not to say I can't work in women's hockey or I don't work in women's hockey at

all. Because every year I always try to do projects for the last 10 years in women's hockey. But I

think there's an element where it just gives more people. into pipeline, necessary skills to like

then keep moving up. And I think we'll see like an explosion of people moving over to management,

people moving on the bench. Already there's more AHL coaches too that are women. So I think we're

already seeing it, but I think it's just a natural progression to get more people into the sport.

It's hard to break that down when there's no data.

It freaks me out when I hear things like, why don't you just go do that? If anyone can teach you

anything, you will want to learn from that person. Boy, girl, anything in between. Absolutely.

That's something that everyone needs to adopt. If someone has an answer to your problem, you should

listen.

Meghan, listen, you've been real gracious with your time today. I'm going to say something. I'm

going to do the over-under on something for our audience, and I want to say it to you. because i i

meant it when i said i've been following you for years you know um I might be getting ahead of

myself here. That Hall of Fame has a builder's category, and I believe you will be in it one day

for all the work that you have done. Oh, that's so nice. I appreciate it. You have really changed

how we look at the game. You have been a trailblazer in every definition of that word.

And again, I'm sure the audience is familiar with Moneyball. I mean,

you are doing that. And I don't mean following it. You are doing it for hockey. You have changed

how we talk about this game. And we just have the most respect for you and everything you've

accomplished. So thank you for what you're doing for this game. Yeah, thank you for having me.

Okay. So for those of you listening, Meghan is going to join us on a ride to the rink with the kids.

So make sure you listen to that because we're going to probably talk about how often your kids look

at stats and why that might be on the state. from the person who knows all about it. So for Meghan

Jaica and Hayley Scamurra, Mike Bonelli, I'm Lee Elias. Remember, if you have any questions for us,

you can email us at teamandourkidsplayhockey.com or use the link accompanying this show in the

description. Let us know your name, where you're from. We love hearing from you, especially if you

have stat questions. Maybe we can lure Meghan on for another episode of Q&A like we do with Hayley

all the time. But that's going to do it, my friends. Thanks for listening to this edition of Our

Girls Play Hockey. We'll see you next time. We hope you enjoyed this edition of Our Kids Play

Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening,

whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or our website, ourkidsplayhockey.com.

Also, make sure to check out our children's book, When Hockey Stops, at whenhockeystops.com. It's

a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But

thanks so much for listening to this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey, and we'll see you on the next

episode.