Our Kids Play Goalie: Prepping Your Goaltenders With David Ayres

SPEAKER_01 1:23

How would you feel if you were at a game at an NHL game and they just asked you to jump in at halfway through the game? Well, that's what happened to our guest today, David Harris on our Kids Play Goalies. Many of you remember him. It was a Toronto Maple Leafs versus Carolina Hurricanes game where he was asked to step in in the second half of the game. So we do discuss that on the episode, but as we do on our kids go play goalie, uh dive into so much more about this man and his life as a coach and how he sees the game, and he gives such great advice in this episode about the mental side of goalie, about the communication and the coaching of goalies at the youth level. Uh a ton of gold in this episode, including a cool pretty cool chance to reminisce about uh uh one of the good memories of 2020, which was when he stepped in the net for the Carolina hurricane. So you're really gonna enjoy this episode of RKIS Play Goalie. Um, and also if you haven't already, check out our website, rkidsplayhockey.com. Uh, make sure to share this episode with anybody you think might find value. Again, those five-star ratings on Apple Podcasts or Spotify really, really help us out. If you have not done so already and you have a moment to do that, we really, really appreciate it. But let's get you into the episode with David Ayers. This was a really fun one on our kids play goalie. Hello, hockey friends and families around the world, and welcome to another episode of the show where angles and squares are not just for math students. We're talking about our kids play goalie. Most of you remember our guest today as the man that defied the NHL odds when he was asked to step into the net at the age of 42 in the second period for the Carolina Hurricanes as they faced the Toronto Maple Leafs in Toronto in February of 2020, which is our last positive moment from that year. It's happened after both the Keynes goalies went down with injury, thus activating the Rinks e-bug, for that's the emergency backup goalie for those of you who don't know. The score was 3-1 to Carolina when he entered the net, and he left with a victory of 6-3 after facing 10 shots and lugging 28 minutes and 41 seconds of ice time in the NHL. Of course, we're talking about David Ayres, someone who literally can call himself the man, the myth, the legend if he wants to. However, his story goes beyond the NHL on that fateful night in Toronto. David, who's a native of Whitby, Ontario, required a life-saving kidney transplant back in 2004, which he received from his mother. He's also currently the head coach of the Port Perry Lumberjacks of the Provincial Junior Hockey League and the owner of Backup Goalie Life, a lifestyle brand. We can't wait to dive into his story on this episode today. David, welcome to Our Kids Play Goalie.

SPEAKER_02 3:48

Hey, thanks for having me. It's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

No, it's awesome to have you, buddy. You know, David, I always start with this question on these episodes. Uh, I know you come from a family of goaltenders. So tell us about how you ended up between the pipes. What was it was it a family tradition? Was it, you know, these people do it, I have to do it. Were you forced in the net? How did you end up as a goalie?

SPEAKER_02 4:07

It was basically default. I mean, my my dad being a goalie, my brother, older brother being a goalie. It was basically I was at the rink watching them all the time. And when I decided to play hockey, well, at first, obviously, when you're when you're smaller, you have to play, you know, you just play everyone kind of skates around and just plays out. But I as soon as I could, I think I was six or seven years old, I wanted to be a goalie. So I got oversized equipment that my brother used to wear.

SPEAKER_03 4:30

Right.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

And they just kind of threw me in the net. And I guess they thought that I had built-in goalie coaches with my brother and my dad being on my side. So that was that's the beginning of my story right there.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

Yeah, I'm at the point with my son playing goalie that I'm trying to get my daughter, who's younger than him, not to play goalie, even though we have the pads. I'm like, no, no, you you skate out, you should shoot on each other because this is gonna be great babysitting for me in the future. When you guys have any arguments, I'll just tell you to go downstairs. Um, so David, I I got I do have to say, I mean, you must have the ultimate bragging rights now, even though you're the youngest in the net, right?

SPEAKER_02 5:00

Yeah, yeah, I guess so. Um, I don't usually use it. I mean, my brother coaches with me now uh in Port Perry, too. So uh we never actually played hockey together or anything organized. So this was the first thing my brother and I got to do. But yeah, he he throws that around more than I ever do, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Right. Yeah, you know what's funny is I I'm I'm a little brother. I think the best little brother revenge, which I which I say with a little bit of sarcasm, is not having to say it. They just know.

SPEAKER_02 5:26

Yeah, you know, just let it be there.

SPEAKER_01 5:29

Yeah, it's just there. You just let them know that. So um I do want to talk about it for a minute. So back in in 2016-17, just to give everybody some context, um, every NHL team had to have an e bug uh ready to play it at a moment's notice. So I'm actually curious, and I think our audience would be too, David. Just how did you land in that role? Was it something you had to apply for? Uh, did you did you want that? Was it something you fell into? Just what is the process to becoming an e-bug?

SPEAKER_02 5:58

Um, well, I had already been the practice goalie for the Toronto Marlies before that. Uh backed up for them as well a couple times. Um, so they are they knew me. I was on the ice all the time with the with the Marlies guys, and obviously a lot of the Leafs players that went through the Marleys system. So um Kyle Dubas was the GM um with the Marlies there for a while and then moved up to the Leafs, and then Reed Mitchell, uh, who's with the Leafs was the guy who kind of phoned me and said, Hey, we we need the emergency goalie. Um, they did use a couple of university kids as well. Um, and then it was basically just kept me. I I think I did, I don't know, 75% or something like that on the first year. I did a lot. Um, and I think I did all of the second year and the majority of the third year as well. So they just knew me, so they're just kind of like, here you go. We want to we want you to be in there. We know that you could play with our guys because we see it every day. So that's how I kind of fit in.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

I love that because it's it's building towards the next question that I'm gonna ask. So for everybody listening, if you want to know more about his story and that night, there's there's plenty of information out there. We're not gonna spend the whole episode talking about that night. Uh, as I said to David before the episode, he's done enough of that. He's he's spoken about that event. I want to dive into some deeper stuff. Um, but with that event, I do, I did, I this is a question I wanted to ask you. Um, I love some of the knickknacks that came out of that story. Uh, you you weren't wearing your own pads. Uh you had a Toronto Marley's t-shirt on under the pads, I'm told, right? Uh, you got a little bit of a water bottle shower after the game. Uh, you're part of Carolina Hurricanes lore. Your stick is in the hockey hall of fame. And I want to remind everybody, you know, he's in the Toronto system in terms of his work, and he's playing for the other team. So we always talk about how goalies always need to be ready. I want to dive into the mental side of this. And again, I've heard you say things of kind of you just got in, you did it. But it sounds like from what you just told me, there there was some muscle memory type prep for that night. You said it you were with the Marlies, you know, you obviously play goalies. Did you have to activate that? Did it just happen? How how does someone in that moment mentally do that? Because like again, sometimes we see e-bugs, man, they play a couple minutes, you know, they play you played half a game. You know what I mean? Like, like, how did you how did you mentally rise to that occasion?

SPEAKER_02 8:17

Um, yeah, I mean, like I said before, I was on the ice with them a lot, so I was used to it. And actually, the way it worked was the leaf I practice a lot with them, so they do set plays a lot of the time. Um, so you do kind of get used to it, and you kind of see it developing. There's a couple shots in that game that I kind of saw coming. I mean, a little bit of a set play. Um, so I did have that advantage. And I I always say this if I played against Carolina, I would know nothing about them. So it would have been a lot harder for me. Um and I and I think the Leafs guys kind of took it easy on me uh a couple of times when they when they had a really good scoring chance. Um, so I mean I was lucky just being on the ice with those guys for for so long before that that I was kind of prepared a little bit. But you you can't ever prepare yourself for 20,000 fans that are screaming though. I've been on the ice. In Toronto. In Toronto.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

It's like the like maybe the highest stage in hockey, to be fair.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

Right. So it's the place was lit up when we had practices and stuff like that. They try to make it as obviously real realistic as possible when you're at their practicing. So I've I've seen that, but yeah, stepping onto the ice was a little different with all the people and the buzz. And actually one point felt like the place was shaking underneath my feet. So um that was the hardest part mentally to get over. Um, just not wanting to I you want to look around and take it all in, but you want to focus at the game at the same time. So uh really I don't remember too much about what went on in the crowd once the game started. You just kind of focus right on the game, and um you know it's hard to go in cold, no prep, you don't warm up in the back or you don't stretch, you don't ride the bike, you don't do anything. You just kind of put your gear on and you're watching the game, and then next thing you know, you're you're in the net. So you don't have that time to mentally prepare for a game like that or a spot a position that you're put in like that. So I and I'm traditionally a slow starter, that's probably why I didn't play anywhere really too much before before that. Um, because even my buddies now that I play in a beer league laugh at me because they'll score two or three goals right off the hop, and then and then I play a lot better for the rest of the game. But um, you know, mentally you just have to, you know, get there and and do your job. Essentially, that's what you're there for.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

Yeah, I'm gonna say it again. We talk about this on the show about just muscle memory and that the preparation for moments is years in the making, right? And it's not just that you became the e-bug in that situation, you're in the net, but you had to draw on it. And it sounds like you you just kind of let your body do the work, right? And that in that situation.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

And the and the funny part about that is that in the second intermission, I just wanted them. I said to them on the ice, like, just get me to the second intermission. I just need to breathe and regroup. So I sat down in the second intermission, and James Reimer came and said to me, He's like, Look, you're a goalie, this is what you do. You've been doing this for a long period of time, block out everything else, focus on the game, and just play, just do what you do, just stop the puck. That's all you're there for, is to stop the puck, right? And he was super nice about it. And he just, you know, that was great advice for me because coming from a guy like that, um, just telling me to kind of basically chill out and play my game, that's huge. Because sometimes you just need that. You just need someone who's got your back and just say, hey, like just go out there and do do your thing, have fun. And same thing with all the other players. I mean, at that level, they know how hard it is to play at that level all the time. Um, so for someone to come in there and just kind of jump in and have to play that, obviously mentally it's tough on you, especially when you get two goals scored on you right away. Yeah, uh, that's it's tough, right? That at that point you you either you know thrive or you just get inside your shell and be a turtle, right? But um, so you don't they had my back and I was confident in in them, and you know, I I said to them in the intermission, I said, You guys score one more goal, I'll shut the door, we'll win the game. And they looked at me like I was crazy. Um but we ended up doing it. I mean, but that's the confidence that they gave me, and I and I kind of gave it back to them. And if you saw them play in the third period, how good they were, it was they were crazy. So they I didn't have a ton, I didn't have a ton to do. I didn't have any um well, there's a couple of good scoring chances, but nothing um, you know, like bang bang tic-tac-toe plays against me. So uh I was lucky that way that they had my back pretty good on the ice. So uh yeah, and then af afterwards I still talk to them. I was down in Carolina like a month ago, and you see some of the players and they still remember you, and they still, you know, they say hi and they we have a little chat. So uh it's cool. You just kind of form a family after something like that happens.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

That's really special. And uh I'm told I don't know if you can talk about this, but uh, the rumor is there's being a move a movie being made about this. Is that because that's something you can dive into or no? Is that is that secret in Hollywood type deal?

SPEAKER_02 12:41

Well, I mean it's in the making, that's for sure. I mean, there's uh there's definitely a contract stuff out there for the movie, so um it's obviously not filming or anything yet, but um, that's the goal. I mean, we'll see how see how it goes, but that's the goal right now.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

Yeah, no, goals would be bad in this situation, buddy. No, no, no, that that is the objective for sure. You know, Mike, I'm gonna throw it to you in a second, but David, I'll tell you what's interesting about these moments, right? I remember obviously yours very well. I remember uh Scott Foster. What's funny is that I've watched so much hockey in my life, but I remember where I was when this happened. Like I we I it it's funny, actually. We my my team and I, um, my my production team were coming home from a game in Connecticut, actually, Mike, with the uh Connecticut Whale, and we were listening to the game on the radio in the car. But I I remember it, like I remember the moment. So these these are the you know, I'm bringing that up because these kind of transcend uh uh other moments in the NHL, right? And you know, I think people uh wrongly shrug these things off, like yeah. No, it was a it's a big moment. I mean, that was an amazing moment. And when I think about it, it's you created so much hope for people watching and listening, and that you know, the you know, it's like a dream scenario. Hey, these things happen. Um, and again, look, the world shut down like a month later. You know what I mean? But but um this is why I joked in the open. It's probably like one of the last positive memories from 2020 that we had. Uh, but I I want to I this might sound funny, but I want to thank you for that moment because because it was uh it brought my my team together in a moment. I remember it. Um and I think that probably not Toronto fans, but everybody else outside of there was very, you know, just happy with with seeing you succeed, right? And I think that that brings a little bit of sunlight to the human race that we often need at times. That, hey, look, we do actually feel happy for other people every once in a while, you know, especially when that happens. Again, any uh any Leafs fans listening, I'm sorry. I know that was a tough one for you. Uh Mike, let me throw it to you, buddy, because I'm doing all the talking.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

No, I was gonna say it was it was so much ammunition for my my kids love that Steve Dangle guy. And I think uh the guy from the Toronto Maple East. And and and that's I remember specifically when it happened because I had come home from coaching that day, and I get home and the kids were talking about it. They go, Oh, you got to hear this guy, Steve Dangle, ripping the leaves. And you know, to how is a Zamponi driver, you know, beat, you know, and and it ringing in my ears when I bring up to my little guys that uh, you know, we had you on, they're gonna love it because they know you like they know any NHL player. Like they just know you, you know, just it's really it is inspirational and it's so different, right, as a goalie, because there is no emergency backup centerman. Like, like you don't like the goal, the goalie position is such a unique place to have this type of thing happen. Um, and I know it it spurred a lot of debate, right, around like MLB, like, oh, can we have an emergency backup catcher or you know, or they're gonna be an emergency backup quarterback. Like it's such a crazy thing that you're able to step into an NHL game in an NHL arena, uh, have the mental ability and the physical ability, you know, to play at that high level. But what I love more than anything is showing uh uh the resolution of of of the of the players, right? The the resilience of them saying, listen, uh, you know, we want to win with this guy, and we have an opportunity, and he's giving us hope. Like this guy coming off the bench is giving us hope that we can win a game. And that's that's I think that has to be just inspirational for a lot of uh players that have to get into tough situations at the last minute. So yeah, it is it is a great story, and uh, I'm glad you're you know continuing to make your moment uh you know out of it. It's great.

SPEAKER_02 16:23

Yeah, I think the best part for me is is stuff like this. Where you hear, um, you know, I I always say a lot of people can play the game of hockey. A lot of people get the opportunity to play the game of hockey, and not a lot of people have a platform or a story where you kind of get to inspire people. I've had I couldn't tell you how many messages I've had from people even recently. I had one a couple of days ago where a guy told me, Hey, look, I used to be a goalie back in the day. He he wrote to me on my my Instagram and said, I don't know if you're ever gonna get this, but I was a goalie back in the day and I stopped playing, and then once I watched your game, I decided to pick it back up and it's like I've been playing, I've been playing really good ever since I started back up. Um, but that's the cool part about it. And and you just get to talk to people who had the love for the game and may have lost it at one point, and they kind of watch my story and they're like, the guy was 42 years old, you know. Um, so why am I not doing it at 30? Why why did I stop playing? I still got a long way to go. Hockey and sports in general are just so good for the social aspect as well. I mean, you you go play beer league with your buddies and you guys hang out, and the stories you have and talking about it, you know, you've been playing for 15, 20 years or more together. Um, and that's just the camaraderie of of all of it. Uh and then you like I said, the people that say, Hey, I was here when your game happened. I that's the best because I've heard probably a hundred different stories of where people were, and it's so cool that um just to know that it was all over the world in all different spots. So the opportunity to inspire people all over the world was was kind of cool, whether it was me or somebody else, it's still an inspirational story that kind of helps people sometimes kickstart uh even a different sport or a different like journey in their life. Um so that they can kind of do something that maybe they didn't think they had the ability to do or they just kind of gave up on at some point, but now they've taken it up again and they're like, wow, I was actually I'm actually better than I thought I was, right? So um for me that's really cool to hear all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

It's the the romanticism of sports, right? I mean, it's something that brings us all together, it's a special place in our hearts, not just talking about hockey right now, but sports has the ability to do that. Go ahead, Mike.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

Yeah, and I and I think and I think David's you know proving that you know these goalies are way too cuddled. They don't need all this warm-up and all this mental stuff and the hours before you can go in and play an NHL game without even being warmed up. So let's get the goalies, you know, calm down with the pre-game. At 42 years old. Let's calm let's calm down about all the neediness of these goaltenders for God's sake.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

For those of you listening that might be under 35, uh that's an amazing feat at 42, uh, because your body really just betrays you at 40 every single day of the week. Uh, if I'm not mistaken, you have the NHL record too for for for uh most senior goaltender to win a game, right? Yeah, yeah, the oldest goalie to ever make his debut and win. So yeah, I wonder if anybody ever wants to break that. We'll see. You'll be up there with Gretzky in 20, 30 years, just see what happens. People have bionic arms, but thanks for letting us gush over that moment for a little bit. Uh again, I said it. I know you I know you talk about it a lot, uh, but there is a lot more to you than just one day in February. And I wanted to make sure that we talked about that, especially uh from just the goaltending position, because you're obviously an expert in that field. Um, we said it in the open. You're the head coach with the Port Perry Lumberjacks in the provincial junior hockey league. So here's a question for our audience, especially the coaches listening. What are some of the questions maybe that youth coaches should be asking about the goaltending position that they're not currently? And again, this kind of continues on our theme that goaltenders are often underutilized at youth practices, right? They're kind of an afterthought. So, what are some questions we can ask as coaches or some actions we can take to be better at that?

SPEAKER_02 20:09

I think uh for me, obviously running my own goalie school as well as as coaching and then being basically a practice goalie. Uh, I think one thing for coaching is that you gotta make sure that you are including some time for your goalie to set up. So obviously there's gonna be drills that you're gonna do where goalies are just gonna get peppered, and that's just how it's gonna be. I mean, you're you're a goalie, that's just how it's gonna be. Sometimes you have to learn to just kind of take that, like to take the shots because it's not necessarily just for goalies to be on the ice, it's obviously the players are developing. So everybody on the ice is developing. So I I think for for coaches, um, I mean it's hard to ask like a smaller child, like a you know, a kid who's eight years old, seven years old, you know, like, hey, is there anything we can be doing to help you to help you out during during practices? But I think it's just the coach just needs to be aware when he's setting up his coaching plan, hey, like does my they're my goalie's gonna have any time to really work on technique at all in this practice, or are they just gonna get bombarded with shots all the time? Because you want them to be, you know, I when I when I do my practice, I want it to be more game simulated. Uh for the most part. I do a couple warm-up drills real quick, and then any other drills I do after that. A lot of it is game simulation stuff. Well, I know a guy's not gonna stand in front of the net and have like six whacks at the goalie um, you know, for rebounds, and then they're not gonna pass back and forth in front of the net three times. So it's one of those things where you got say you're doing a I don't know, a two-on-one drill. You you make a pass, you take a shot, you kind of get out of the way. Right? It's just one of those if the rebounds out front, don't make the goalie go back and forth three times. He's gonna, you know, blow his hips out or his knees out. Um, and it's really not ever gonna happen in a game for the most part. Someone's gonna be on him, a defenseman's gonna be there, someone's gonna be there to to get that puck cleared out of the way. So let's just make it as realistic for a goalie as possible in a practice, um, instead of just kind of using him as a target.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

Yeah, Dave, on that same note, too, right? I mean, we also want to make sure that we're putting goaltenders in uh there's a lot of screening opportunities, a lot of redirects, a lot of real game-like things. Like I'm a big follower of Steve Valiquet and then his clear-sighted analytics kind of program and watching about, you know, really at the highest levels, any level, that you know, play goalies that get shots taken from the top of the circle at their chest are supposed to make those saves. Like that's an easy save. So, how do we make it harder for everyone? You know, how do we make it for both learners, right? The the shooter and the goalie, and creating more, you know, chaos in front. Maybe, and yeah, but I I love the fact that you're saying, listen, that doesn't mean, you know, well, in today's game, right? You maybe you watch like McDavid and Dry Saddle do three passes back and forth. But in real, in real hockey, that doesn't happen, right? But I think the the ability to say, listen, guys, you can't come down the ice and make five east to west passes and expect the goalie to try to make that save. It's not fair to the goalie. And in to your point, you know, that's how people get hurt. Um, but I think more importantly, it's like make sure. I mean, I I hear all the time about, you know, uh coaches that talk about their goalies not battling and covering pucks and and and you know continuing to play. I'm like, well, I watched seven year practice. Practices and they never have an opportunity to stuck, you know, to stop the puck and end the play. The play's always going. Like I hear coaches all the time, play it, play it, play it, move it, move it, move it. And then you ask your goalie not to do that in a game. I'm like, well, that's why we practice, right? So create, I love that, you know, you got to create, you know, the atmosphere in practice that's going to replicate the game the best. And then there are going to be times when, hey, listen, you know, they're just we're having a small, little, small area game here. We're doing something fun where it's going to be a little rapid fire. And maybe, like, you know, maybe you instruct your goalies. Listen, you're just trying to stop that first puck. Don't be diving across the crease, you know, to try to make, you know, save five, six, and seven. Although our, you know, I realize our best goalies are going to do that, right? Because they're competitive. But just that's a great, I think that's a great way for youth coaches to know like you could have slower practices that replicate the game more and get the get the get positive reps, you know, in what you're trying to teach.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

100%. You're 100% right. I think the positive reps is exactly what you you need. I mean, sure, there's gonna be times, like you said, there's gonna do rapid fire. You have to do some fun stuff. And so those fun drills could be, you know, rapid fire shots or or anything for that matter, where the goalie is not gonna see that in a game. But goalies also do love that, but they don't love it for an hour or an hour and a half practice of just being bombed. They want to do some stuff, like you said, work on um rebound control, they want to work on fighting through a screen to see it, they want to work on second, third shots sometimes, and they want to be able to use their lateral movements to get there in tight. Um, and that's the thing is that a lot of coaches don't necessarily think like that, or maybe just you know, haven't brought themselves to realizing, hey, like we need to utilize our goalies a little bit more uh in a game situation in practice, so that when they're in a game, we don't look at them when they get a goal scored on them, like, how did you not save that? Or how did you not cover that? Well, because like you said, we you don't you don't get a chance to cover it in practice because the next group is already coming down on you. So you have to recover real quick and get up and go. You don't get the chance to, you know, have a proper rebound control, cover it, put it in the corner, and then re-regroup back to your post or wherever the play may be.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

You just have to get ready for the next group to come down and rip it at you. And I just want to emphasize what you said earlier. Coaches have a plan. If you wing it, most likely you can't build practices that benefit all your players, which includes your goaltender, right? So plan your practices out so that you're not, you know, you tell your goalies, hey, listen, for these 25 minutes, we're gonna be doing this. This is your time to track, stop, you know, cover pucks, slow the whole practice down. This is your time. Here is gonna be a little bit more my time, you know, where I need to do this because I need to get my players to do more of this. So, but if you don't have a plan, you know, the goal, the nobody knows who's asking who to do what. And I think to, you know, and on top of the plan, it's a time where, like I know me, if I have a plan, my if I have a goalie coach on the ice, that goalie coach then can look at my syllab, my plan and say, okay, here's the run of the show, here's where I can take the goalie out and work with them. Right, um, and here's where I can. If you try to wing it, then the goalies don't get to get worked on either, right? So I think it's you know, if a goalie knows, hey, there's only one goalie, here's a here's a 15 minutes of drills where it's only one goalie in the net and the other kids sitting on the side, well, that's the time he could be, you know, learning and and or doing something that's going to benefit their time on the ice. But without a plan, everybody kind of stands around and just waits, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 26:44

Yeah, no, I I I totally agree. And like you said, if you pull a goalie out of a drill that only needs one goalie at a time, and there's even, I don't know, 15, like you said, 15 minutes. You split that 15 minutes up into two your two goalies. If you do that throughout the season, that's a lot of time that your goalies um getting some extra action and some and goalie coaching time, right? So um, you know, it might only be seven minutes at a time in practice, but that those seven minutes add up throughout the year when you have a goalie coach. That's what I do a lot of um for my goalie coaching. I actually go to practices, talk to the coaches, and they set aside some time at the beginning of practice, and then obviously I stay throughout the practice to kind of correct anything or jump in whenever I get a chance to jump in to help the goalies out. But I always want to make sure that I've got them kind of fresh and their technique is going real well before they jump into their to their main practice. And then obviously you just kind of you you work with them at that point, and that's the best thing to do is have a when you have a goalie coach out there in practice, is let him work with the goalies at the beginning so that way the goalie can take everything that he's learning at the beginning and use it for the rest of the practice. I see a lot of guys who a lot of coaches who um want to bring out a goalie coach who said, Well, we're gonna do 40 minutes of whatever my practice for the last 10 minutes. Well, you can work with the goalie. First of all, the goalie's gonna be tired and he's not gonna be able to use that little skills in the rest of his practice because the practice is gonna be over by the time you're done that. So that's tough.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

So, David, I want to ask this question to you. So I like to put myself out there because I'm not a goalie coach. Again, I'm a coach and I I I I've learned as much as I can about that position, but I wouldn't call myself a coach. So, as my son's a goalie, I want to kind of do a little thing here of these are the things I'm saying to my kid. Are these appropriate? Are they are they incorrect? Are they correct? Um, not to not to kind of hope I'm right. I just I want to know, right? So, one of the things I remember when when he first got out there, um, this is early on, but he would, you know, if there was five kids with pucks, he'd be tracking all five pucks. And I said to him, hey, listen, Logan, that's his name. I said, in a game, you're only gonna have to track one puck. So if you're doing this in a drill, pick one and and track that puck, right? Don't track more than one at once because you're gonna go nuts, obviously, or you're gonna hurt yourself. Is that is that a fair thing to say to him?

SPEAKER_02 28:58

Yeah, well, yeah, obviously there's only one puck on the ice at a time, but there's there's times you'll get drills where they'll shoot two pucks at the same time for goalie drills. We can kind of do it. You have two guys side by side, and you'll shoot one, obviously, wide that's not gonna hit the goalie, and you'll shoot one at the goalie. So they're gonna have to focus on which one's coming at you off the stick, right? So uh, and because sometimes you you don't see the puck till the last second. So even off the stick, you don't see it. So it's you have to really catch it real quick and just kind of work on your tracking and your reflexes. So, yeah, essentially you want you want to just track the one puck. I mean, if there's a bunch flying around and you know, they're kind of at the beginning of practice, your kids always shoot on the net. Oh, and goalie's want to always want to always want to save every single puck. Right. They're just kind of diving it, and you know, their hands are going everywhere. Um, but yeah, just pick one at a time, let the other ones go on the net. Who cares? Just it's just one one shot.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

So, kind of building on that, the other thing I told them is this is and again, my kids uh nine years old, so we're talking youth hockey here. But what'll happen a lot of times in drills is uh I'll just say the drill's not paced appropriately. Um, so what'll end up happening is you know, two or three shooters could be coming down at once, or it might be one. Um, and he's doing what you're saying. Like he's very competitive, so he wants to save all of them. But what I've told him is, you know, if you're out of position and not set on a drill, unless you feel like you have to do it, you know, don't not don't take your time, but get set and take the next shot. Maybe skip a shot and take the next one. Is that fair, right? Because what ends up happening, David, as you can imagine, he starts jumping side to side. It's like you're not even playing goalie now, you're just diving in front of Bucks, right? Yeah. So I told him that you know, yeah, you can let a shot go by. That sounds right.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

Yeah, for sure. Um, and like you said, if you're out of position, don't try and dive back into position, especially there's a lot of drills where you've got you know, maybe three or four shots coming at you at a time from from the other end, sort of thing. They come in a row, and sometimes the guys the guys bobble the puck. So the next guy, if you're supposed to be, you know, 10 feet in front of the guy in front of you and he bobbles it. So now these two guys are basically you know three feet apart and they're gonna shoot it one after another, just kind of take the one, you know, just work on positioning, just get in position. Also, if there's three shots in a row coming at you, I always tell my goalies, don't go down for all three of them. Um, you know, work on staying on your feet because I don't want you to I don't want your first reactions to be to go down. No matter when someone shoots it, I don't need your first reaction to be to drop to the ground because a lot of guys um will shoot it high. So if you're a good goalie and you can learn how to stay high and just get your gloves out there and use your hands and direct it into the corner or catch it uh for the first two, that's that's good. And then work on the third shot that comes in. Now now go down if if you have to, and go down on that one. So don't necessarily have to jump around because as soon as you go down on the first one, you're probably not gonna get back up in time to regroup for the second shot, and then the third one's coming at you, and who knows if you've already slid slid a little bit out of the net or moved off position. So just stay on your feet and shuffle with the first couple shots, and then the last one is coming down, then treat that like a game shot.

SPEAKER_01 31:59

You know, David, one of the recurring themes I'm starting to notice on these episodes, uh, and Mike Mike's been on all of them too, is that a lot of goalies, a lot of goalie coaches saying, you know, you don't have to drop on every shot. And I've actually been telling that to my son that, you know, it that shouldn't always be your first reaction. Um, you know, it's staying up as long as you can, as you just said, is is part of the position. You know, the goalies to drop, especially, especially when you're that age and you're using full-size nets. Um, you know, it's it's it's I mean, they're gonna shoot high if you do that. All right, last last one on this one. This this one goes from might all the way to men's league or adult league. Warm-ups. Oh man, I I get frustrated with with kids I coach and even my own teammates sometimes. I've always said, yeah, the warmups are for us to get warm, but you gotta warm up the goalie. And when I see guys come down in the first 30 seconds and do four deks, I'm like, you're you're an a-hole. Or I've seen guys hit my goalies in the head. I'm like, what are you what are you doing? You know what I mean? So can we just talk about proper, and this is from Youth On proper warm-up techniques for goalies and how to best get your goalie, who is the most important player on the team, warmed up for the game.

SPEAKER_02 33:11

Yeah, that's definitely you don't want to hit them in the head. Definitely don't want to hit them in the back. Yeah, bad idea. I know you know, I remember playing and I took one in the throat and um and it off off topic a little bit, it hit me in the throat and I couldn't breathe. And I I bent over, uh, like leaning on my pads, and I woke up on the ice on my back. So, I mean, that goes to show how important it is to not shoot it high. I mean, I took it right right in the throat and closed my airway. So that kind of sucked, but that to your point, don't hit them in the head, don't try and pick all the corners possible because a lot of the times when the goalie's in net, he just wants to be able to, you know, feel the puck hit him, you know, off his legs, off his hands, off his chest. He just wants to be able to get the feel of that. And then he moves out of the net. So when the goalie moves out of the net to kind of you know skate around or do whatever, then pick every single corner you want to. You know, that's why I always tell my players when the goalie's out of the net, do whatever you want. I don't care. There's no one in the net. Pick corners, shoot as hard as you want to. But when the goalie is actually in there, make him make a save, right? Like just kind of get his hands going, get his legs going, you know, get his eyes going. Just that's the stuff that you have to do. Instead of just trying to be, you know, I went go home and say, hey, I scored 20 goals in a warm-up. Like it's just no one cares. On my goalie, yeah. Yeah, exactly. No, no, nobody cares. They care that your goalie's warmed up, ready to go for the game.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

Yeah, and able to play in a game. I mean, you know, you watch the you watch these guys, like I'm watching kids like in warm-ups and they're shooting pucks from the corner and the goalie's watching the shooter up in front of them. I'm like, you know, I always gave our my goal turns like, listen, if you get hit in the back of the leg in warm-ups, feel free to go after that kid. I you know, I you it's it he's all yours. But I mean, I just that's a great point. Like, like a lot of youth players think, oh, well, I'm gonna light this kid up in practice in my warmup.

SPEAKER_01 34:52

Every youth player, Mike. I think it's all I guess.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

I just I just look at these guys. Like, I mean, aiming's aiming, right? If you can aim for a pad, you can aim for a pad. Just aim for a pad. Just just look at the try to hit the goalie, like you know, David's saying, goalie gets out and he does his little routine, then rip some pucks on the net, you know, go nuts. But I think it's uh I think it's you know, it's uh and it's funny you say that because there's a lot of so I've I've gotten down this rabbit hole of different warm-ups, like different warm-up routines. And I've seen so many in the European system now that have actually during warm-ups, they have two nets in the zone, and one net is shooting on the goaltender and the other guy's ripping pucks on the on the empty net that's on the other side of the goaltender just to get just so they can just so they can, you know, catch and shoot and rip pucks, and it just gets more kids, you know, in warmups, right? It gets your shooters an opportunity to shoot as hard as they want, get your goalies an opportunity to kind of feel their crease and feel where they are in the net. But it's uh I thought it was a I I'll have to look it up, but I think it was uh like a Danish team or uh uh one of the Scandinavian teams. It just was an interesting warm-up that they tried to say, listen, we want our goal tennis to warm up properly, but you also want our shooters to be able to, you know, rip some shots. And it was uh it was an interesting dynamic. It was uh it it was it was fun to watch. Kids seem to like it, and um, you know, it's and it kind of set the pace for the for the warm-up to kind of expediate a little bit. I think especially at the youth level, like what we're Lee and I are at, you know, these kids get like a three-minute warm-up. I mean, it's not like they're getting a 20-minute warm-up, they get three minutes, you know, get out there. I think, you know, so maybe maybe real quick, maybe you could talk a little bit about, you know, what do you what do you uh what are the kind of the routines that you have your your goaltenders that you work with go through before they get on the ice? Like are they are they completely separated from the team? Are they doing their own thing? Are they juggling? No, you know, what what are they doing so that they only have if they only have three minutes, you can't expect the kid to be warmed up anyway. So what are they doing prior to getting on the ice?

SPEAKER_02 36:45

Yeah, obviously goals are are very different, different individuals. Um, so they have a lot of them have their own routines. But uh for me, I always want them, you know, get the balls off the wall. I just start juggling off the wall or um just kind of for me personally, I would throw the ball. Um, I would probably stand six feet, seven feet away, and I would have a tennis ball or whatever, and I toss it as hard as I can. I chuck it as hard as I can just to get my hands um going real quick. Uh and then you gotta get your legs moving. So, you know, they play a little bit of soccer. That's why I always tell them, like get, you know, play some play some soccer, play some sewer ball with the guys, and you know, you have to be part of the team. You can't just, you know, be over here and doing your own thing. So you want to be part of the team, but you also want to get your your hands and your eyes going because the players don't necessarily need that. You know, they're not saving um shots with their hands, so they don't necessarily have to do that. I mean, there I've seen guys actually take coaches, take their players outside of the arena, get the arena guy to give them a net outside, and these guys are firing pucks in the parking lot or behind the arena at the nets before they even go out for practice, because like you said, there's only you know three minutes for a warm-up. So these guys are shooting pucks like 20 minutes before they have to go on the ice outside in the parking lot, uh, which is different. Um, but yeah, for for goalies, it's just they're they're all just gonna be different, but you gotta get your hands going for sure. You have to get your eyes going for sure, and obviously your legs and get your stretching routine going, and um, but also be be part of the be part of the team, be part of the guys, because everyone's gonna you need everybody on the ice to be together.

SPEAKER_01 38:12

Yeah, I I I totally agree with that, David. You know, it's funny. Last thing on the warm-ups, uh, I was I received a great compliment last night on my adult league game mic, where uh um typically I'll I'll warm the goalies up uh because you know I I want to shoot in the pads the first 10 shots, and then I start to just get them moving and a goalie came up to me. Like towards the end of warm-ups, he just leave. Will you will you shoot on me, please? I was like, why are you all right? He's like, he's like, no one is doing this. I just need someone to shoot on me correctly. I was really flattered by that. But um, I would say to the the the players out there and the parents listening, um, and David, you can comment on this too. You know, ask your skater to be a leader in that regard. All right. And yeah, I'm actually gonna segue this into another topic here that I want to talk about, but I don't think there's anything wrong. Um, I've had many teams where I've played, especially when I was playing competitively, where a goalie and a player had a great relationship, and that goalie wanted that player to warm them up. It was part of the routine, and I think that's really important. Um, and I'll tell you look, even at the might level, and and again, I've I've become more sensitive to this now that my kid's a goalie. I I will totally admit that, but but even before he was a goalie, I get angry uh sometimes at even on my players when they come in and just dangle. It's like what we've said this all season, right? You have got to let this kid warm up. You know, so uh again, David, feel free to talk about it. I just I think it's good for goalies and players to have a really good relationship and that you know the goalie gets what they need, even if it's one friend or a couple friends, just understanding, hey, you know, I want five here, five there, or I want this kind of uh routine before the game.

SPEAKER_02 39:45

Yeah, for sure. You still see it. I think even a couple goalies, uh, I know AHL guys and even some NHL guys, I think, like to have a couple of players just shoot on them at the beginning when everyone else is kind of skating around, like they'll even take some time. But like you said, they'll just take five shots to the club or five to the blocker. Um, you know, everyone has their own routine. But for for me, the things I don't like to see is like guys just if a goalie's standing there, don't shoot five-hole. Actually, the guys I play with, a lot of them are ex-pro or university guys, they still shoot five hole on me all day long in warm-ups, and not one of them hits me. Everything just goes, I stand up there and everything goes five hole. It's like you guys just hit the pads. So that's you know, the one thing is, yeah, if you have one guy in your team that you like to warm you up and he's gonna shoot to your glove perfectly and your blocker perfectly for you, 100% ask him to do that because it's it is warm-up for the goalie at the beginning. It's also warm up for the players, but when the goalie's in the net, warm him up properly. And if that does take somebody, just one guy to do it, and that's what makes the goalie feel comfortable, then do it. Because the goalie's not gonna stay in that for the whole warm-up, he's eventually gonna go off the side, and then you can shoot. So, and and let's be real, most of these kids shoot at home for the most part too, or you know, practice all day long. That's all they do is shoot, shoot, shoot. So it shouldn't take them, you know, three minutes of just firing into the top corner to be ready to shoot whenever you have to shoot. So that's um, they should be ready, take a couple shots, and you're and you're kind of good to go. You can feel it. I play it the odd time too. You can feel it whether or not you're gonna have a day when you're when you're shooting it or not. It's like you brought your hands or you didn't bring your hands.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

So yeah, I've had many games, David, where I was like, I guess I'm passing tonight. Um you know, the other thing too is that you know, just for anybody who's trying to be a sniper, you know, I used to go to the side and try and hit the letters on the boards, like on the dashboards, just pick a spot, see if you can hit it. Uh, it doesn't always have to be the net, just some advice there. But David, I want to transition this here because we're we're kind of talking a little bit about communication. I think something that's lacking at a lot of levels is kind of the understanding that the goalie sees the game differently, and that it behooves you, as players and coaches, to learn how that goalie sees the game and how to communicate on the ice. Uh, what does the goalie want in a certain situation, or how does he want you to react? Um, defensemen should have no issue with this. I mean, I talk to goalies if I'm playing defense. Where do you want me to be? Do you want this shot? Do you want me to take the shot uh in terms of taking him out of the play? So, two questions here. One is how important is that communication? Uh, and then the other question is what are some of those questions, or what what can we do to increase that communication? You know, thinking from kind of a youth coach point of view, what are some of the questions you should be asking your goalie of how do you want to play this situation?

SPEAKER_02 42:24

Yeah, it most goalies are comfortable in in taking a shot straight on, obviously. So if you've got your defenseman in front and they're kind of boxing out, that's what that's basically a goalie's dream. Because he just wants to be able to take that shot. Now he knows there's no second weapon that this guy's gonna go to. He's gonna fire past me. If he makes a pass here, I'm confident that my D-man is gonna have that guy box out, lift his stick, and he's not gonna, if he does pass it, it's gonna go right by him. You know, there's no chance of him scoring other than maybe hitting a skate. But for the most part, you want to take that that shot straight on as as a goalie. I personally used to love cross-freeze passes. Um, I didn't like a guy being able to walk right in. I would rather have a guy go to him and then make him make that cross-freeze pass because I used to love to to get across real quick and make that save. Um, but a lot of goalies would prefer the shot straight on. But it's it's tough as a goalie. I mean, if you let the guy walk in 15 feet on you, you're thinking in your head, can somebody get him? Like somebody go get him. Um, and if they don't, then you know it kind of messes with you. You're because you're like, oh man, like this guy's got a ton of time to pick wherever he wants to go. Am I in the right spot? Are my hands right in the right area? Like, do I have everything covered? Um, and that goes through your head super quick. And so it is for a goalie to say to the D-Man, hey, if this guy's walking in and he's got a ton of time to walk in, I want you to go to him. I'll take the pass across, but I want you to jump on him so that you now don't let him just shoot it. Now he's got to make a quick decision whether he has to shoot it real quick or if he has time to make to make a pass. So um, but it's it's gonna be different for each goalie depending on what they like. Um, but I would say 90% of them want you to, if it's just gonna be a quick shot, they want to be able to see it, obviously.

SPEAKER_01 44:01

You know, here's something I think about too. And again, I I take this into a kind of effect as a player. I want to bring it back to the goalie is I I um take into account when I'm playing angling, squaring up, like everything the goalie has to do, especially in a defensive situation. So my mindset if I'm playing D or I'm in a defensive position is okay, first thing is if I can eliminate the shot altogether, I want to do that. So I'll typically try and get a guy to go to his backhand first. All right, but that doesn't always happen. So if it does, then my attitude is I want to split the ice in half for my goalie. So he has only got he knows it's gonna come from this side of the ice, and I'll leave with my stick, I'll push the guy out to the left or the right, and then I'll start yelling, you know, shots coming, shots coming, because I want the goalie to know I'm I'm going to give you the shot, right? And if and and he might yell at me, take it, take the play or something, you know, go take the player. But I always give, I would say I always give the goalie the first round of refusal on how they want to take the play. So but but it from a player awareness standpoint, understanding their job in net and squaring up and angling and knowing that if you cut the ice in half and you've communicate communicated with your goalie that you're gonna do that, um, it can slightly change maybe how you're gonna play. Or you can be a little more confident it's not gonna go cross ice if if you don't want that, David. Right.

SPEAKER_03 45:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:16

Uh so I just I don't think there's enough of that communication um where you know this is the teamwork aspect of a game, right? And and and positions understanding each other that you can really help your goalie, really help them make a save and make it easy on them. Like you said, you know, if you're squared up and you're in the right position and your D or your your your defensive players have helped you do that, man, your percentage of a save are going way, way up, right? So can you talk to that for a minute?

SPEAKER_02 45:45

I don't think enough players to your point um really think about hey, if I cut the ice in half, the goalie's only gonna have to make a save from this side. Um that's so that's huge. And I always kind of try and tell the guys that same thing. Like if you cut off the options where he can't go to the other side of the ice, now the goalie can concentrate on this is where the shot's coming from, right? And then they know that you they're confident that you've got that pass, you cut that off, and this guy's only option is to shoot it from this side of the ice. So uh that's huge. And a lot of coaches, I think that's a really good point to to let your players, all of your players on the ice, realize that that um you know your goalie will have more confidence in you, especially when they know that you've got this cut off. And if you do the drills like that, where you know you really work on that, where you work on hey, there's nothing, there's no options for this guy to pass to on this side of the ice. So now the goalie is definitely no he knows the shots coming from from here. Um so he needs to know the goalie needs to know where basically where the first shot is gonna come from. After that, who knows, could hit a shin pad or or whatever. So that's why it's the goalie's the goalie is everyone has to react off that first shot. But if I have time as a goalie to get square and be there and take that shot in the chest, you know, most likely I'm gonna be able to smother that puff and there's gonna be no rebound. So, but it's all because of the help of the players that have actually cut the ice in half for me, or even just not even in half. If they can get it down to a quarter at that point, and you just know the shots coming from this angle, and that's it. Other than that, everything else is covered. So coaches really need to kind of reiterate that to players. It's like, hey, let's let's work on that. So the goalie, just to help our goalie out. He's not just there to make saves, we're we gotta help him as well, um, and by covering certain guys.

SPEAKER_01 47:24

Well, uh look, I'll say this too. There's a trust thing here as well, right? Uh, you know, building trust in your goalie or having your your goalie be confident. Um, I I I love the relationship with my goalies when you know they know I trust you to make this save if I pay place this player here. I think sometimes we see D jump up and I'm like, well, what are you trying to say? You know what I mean? So so I I think it's important is that there needs to be that trust. And and again, my my my uh thought on this too, and and David, Mike, please feel free to join in. I think sometimes this can be solved with really a simple 15-minute conversation of just bring your players, bring your skaters over to the goalies and have the conversation. Where do you want me to be? How do you want me to play this? Right? Um, how do you not want me to play this, right? Am I screening you? Uh do you not like it when I'm at the top of the creek with the players in the slot, right? Um, and and and look, just to equate this back to the NHL level and how the game evolves, um, I think I think the antithesis to this is guys like McDavid and guys like Nate McKinnon who do not state in the skate in a straight line. They if you watch these guys, they never skate straight. They are weaving, and McKinnon's known for like three crossovers, three crossovers down the ice. Um that that's the game evolving because it's tough to track. Um, it's tough to get those guys just to go left, right? Because they can go right just as good. Um, so yeah, David, one more thing though for me on on the position is I want to talk about, again, kind of rounding this out, the mental side of the position, right? Because um there is, I can't think of another position in sports like this one. Uh, you're not gonna score a goal, most likely. It's highly unlikely. I'll say that. Um, you know, the puck's either going in or it's not, it's it's like we say about coaching. When when you lose, it's the coach's fault. When you win, it's the players did it. Um, you know, it not so much for goalie. Goalie can win a game. We've said that, but you got to be mentally tough. And I'm gonna equate this back to my to my son again. And I hope I'm not getting groans from the listeners, but I am excited about his journey. But one of the conversations we had this year, and we can take this from Mike all the way up, David, is um he was starting to, in some games, I could see lose his mind a bit when he was getting scored on, or you know, the team would go up if it was a tough goal late. And I sat him down and I said, Look, Logan, you don't have to be perfect at this, but you need to be working on your mental side of the game that the puck is gonna go in the net. We have to find some methods for you to accept it and move forward very quickly. I did tell him this too, David. I said, you are allowed to be frustrated and pissed after a goal. Like, who wouldn't be? I'm not gonna tell you not to feel that. That's ridiculous. I said, but it's like 10 seconds. You got three minutes to feel whatever you're sorry, three seconds to feel what you're feeling. You got three seconds to kind of review what happened, three more seconds to get yourself calm, and then one second and the game's going. So I said, but that's the process. And to his credit, I mean, he's really been working on it. He's not perfect, he's never gonna be, right? But he he's worked on that. How important is that side of the game outside the physical aspects of goalie? And how how can we work on that?

SPEAKER_02 50:31

Uh, that's huge. I always tell every goalie that I ever work with is that you have to be, I'd say, even more mentally prepared than physically prepared um to play. I mean, there's a lot of goalies out there that they just get two or three goals scored on them in a game. They just buckle. Um, they just don't have it in them to fight and keep going. It's not even just goalies as well, but the players are the same way. You see benches where a couple goals get scored on, and next thing you know, everybody on the bench is sitting down. It's like, what are you sitting down for? They scored three goals on three shots, you know, same thing as a goalie. Um, you know, they just scored on you, they just scored three goals on you. Okay, so now you battle back and you play hard for the rest of the game, and then you give your team a chance to go down the other end and score three or four more goals and make it a game, get a win. But if you if they see you just kind of mentally shut down after you let a couple goals in, well they're they're gonna have no confidence in you now for the rest of the game because they're gonna be like, Well, he's pissed. They they got three goals scored on him, and now he's not gonna do anything about it, um, to help us get back in the game. So now they feel like they have to play a totally different game in front of you because you didn't you you you don't you're not mentally strong enough to just sit there and work and work and work and just keep battling through it. Um I think goalies that are really good mentally, they don't have to be no, I mean obviously no one's gonna be perfect mentally or physically, but you don't have to be on the top of your game physically if you're really mentally strong. You know where you need to be in the net. You don't have to be the most physical specimen to be able to move and have like crazy reaction time, but if you're really good at your angles and you're really mentally strong, they know that they're gonna they're gonna battle you're gonna battle for the rest of the team for the whole game, no matter what happens. Uh your your players are gonna have confidence in you and they're gonna have your back all the time. So a hundred percent um mental is a massive, massive part about being a goalie, and that sometimes makes a difference between uh well, a lot of times makes a difference between a good goalie and a goalie who basically kind of shuts it down in I don't know, 14, 15, 16 years old and doesn't make it to the next level because a lot of times they're really good goalies, but they can't they can't get past the fact that they get you know three, four, five goals scored in in a game. I was I was actually at an Oshawa Generals game, an OHL game, and they lost, I think it was 10 to 2 the other day, and I felt bad. They had their backup goalie in and he got peppered for I think five goals and they pulled him out and they put the other goalie in. He got two, and then they put the other goalie back in, he got three more goals scored up scored on him. You could just see how dejected he was. Um, and it's a tough one, it's tough. But you're still gonna be there, you're gonna be the only guy in the crease, and people are gonna be looking at you every time a goal goes in. So you have to be mentally strong enough to say, you know, I'm here. This is my position. I'm gonna battle for the whole game, no matter what happens. As long as you battle and you say, you know, I've tried my hardest, I gave it everything I had for the whole game, the outcome really, I mean, sometimes it's not the way you want it to be, but you can go home saying, I tried my hardest, I did everything possibly I could do in the net that day. So you can't necessarily pin it right on me, and it's a team game.

SPEAKER_01 53:31

David, I totally agree. I I I want to reiterate what you just said. There's a lot of wins in a game, and it's not always the final score. Um, and the other thing you said too that I think is really true, and Mike, you know, I'm I I think it's one of those things I kind of knew it, but now that we're talking about it, if a skater kind of quits, it's manageable. You know, it's not it's not fun on the bench, but it's manageable. Goalie quits, that the game's over, right? And and the whole team feels that when the goalie doesn't want to play. You know, and um again, going back to my kids' team, you know, uh one of the one of the joys of might squirt hockey is there's gonna be those games you just get destroyed. Um, and I can always say to my my like all the kids on the team, this is not just my son, they never quit. They just don't quit. And and I was able to tell my son that, you know, you not quitting makes them keep going. You're still making huge saves or big saves when you're down 10, 15 goals. And so some of these games are like that. Yeah, your team, they see that. And and they and trust me, the coaches see it and they say it. You know, like Logan's not quitting. You guys, and then they don't either. So I I just from a mental standpoint, from a team standpoint, coaches, parents, players, it behooves you to enable that position. You know, hopefully your goalie is a good kid off the ice, too. But from a positional standpoint, you enable that goalie. Um, you know, and and staying on the mental health stuff, mental fitness stuff for a minute, you know, I think that every goalie is a little different mentally. You know, some people want every goalie to be calm, some people want them to be angry. You know, I grew up in the Heckstall era, which was a different era. And then, you know, now you see guys that are doing like a lot of meditation before the game. I I think, David, that, you know, from a mental toughness standpoint, um, there is no right way. It's you got to find that what works for you. Um, you know, a a very calm goalie that that people that that meditates and nothing seems to bother him is just as mentally strong as a goalie that might get a little uh you know fiery uh when they need to, for lack of a better word. There's also at times it can go too far. But you know, whatever their process is for competing, right? It we got to respect that, right?

SPEAKER_02 55:39

Yeah, that's the thing, like exactly what you said. I've seen goalies out there that get wild, you know, they're crazy. They're but they they don't stop competing, but that's their personality on the ice. Sometimes those guys that are on the ice that are, you know, they they're screaming and yelling like during the game, and that's how they play, they play hyped up, are really calm off the ice. Um, and sometimes the other way around. Some guys that are really kind of high strung off the ice when they go in in the net, they're really calm, they're focused. You know, that's just and like you said, you can't you can't teach a goalie to be a certain way mentally in the net. They have to find what's gonna help them battle through a game and be mentally tough through the whole game, and not even just the game, practice as well. Because if you're going in practice and your goalie is letting absolutely everything in and not trying, not you know, there's no um second effort or even third effort in practice. What you learn in practice and what you do in practice is what you're gonna do in a game. So if you are kind of you're lazy in practice, of course you're gonna be lazy in a game. Sure, you might be better in a game, but there's gonna be times in the game where you just revert back to the laziness that you were doing in practice.

SPEAKER_03 56:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:44

So that's the thing is you gotta try and work as hard as you can in practice so that when it's game time, you know, you're buzzing out there for the game.

SPEAKER_01 56:52

Yeah, I'll say this too. You know, um, I used to do goalie scouts for for games when I was working in Europe. And one of the funny things is because I think warm-ups are a little bit poor over there at times. Mike, you'll like this, but I used to love warmups because they they'd show me their weakness spot. They goalies, if you're not careful, you'll show all of your weak spots in a warmup. And it's typically because you don't go for that shot, right? Uh uh, you know, if I see a goalie lit in five glove saves in a row, okay, that's something. But I I'll notice if a if a goalie's just not not making blocker saves in the warm-up, I mean, you're telling me something. You know, and and I'll be honest, those scouts were usually correct with uh with what I'm seeing. So um I think you're right. It look, you practice hard, so the games are easy. Um, you know, and and think about this too, to bring up a great point about practice. Um, the goalies that I've played with or coached that were animals at practice, man, those teams did good because they were just always challenged. They were always challenged. It was it was a constant, you know, I want to score on you and you want to stop me attitude. Uh, you know, you practice that all year, you're gonna bring that to games, right? So I think that's another great point. Mike, again, I'm hogging the mic. Do you do you want to? It's my fault. Do you have any questions you want to ask? Because Mike's sitting in his car, everybody's just listening to this. He's been doing this whole episode from the driver's seat. God bless you.

SPEAKER_00 58:08

That's all good. No, that's all good. I love it. Listen, it's just it's a lot of you know, it's it's funny. This uh, we always get a lot of uh I think on these goalie episodes, we have a lot of of the same, like a lot of people feel the same way, but it's just different ways that you're presenting it and different ways that each of us as coaches can like me. I like like I like having two goalies that compete against each other like I would expect the defensemen to compete against each other. I mean, and the one benefit we have as as skaters, right, is that you know, if you're you know, to Lee's point with the way he's working with his son and and David with how you work with your goaltenders mentally, like if I have a if I have a defenseman that's having a brutal game, I could just I could literally put that person in a in a box for a little bit, you know, during the game and and and kind of walk them through this and get them back out there, no problem at all. Goaltenders don't get that opportunity. So it's a whole different way to think about, you know, what are you gonna do as an individual to reset your mindset within all these different pieces of the game? And and and and honestly, we probably should be doing that anyway with our with our skaters on the bench as well, so we don't lose them for swaths of time. But you can hide a player that's not having a great game. It's really difficult to hide a goaltender that's not having a great game.

SPEAKER_02 59:21

Oh, all uh uh outside of taking him out of the game. Right. And like you said, if if a player goes on the ice and he has a tough shift, if he can come off and you can speak to him and you can say, hey, you know, you you need to do this better, or watch for this, and um, at least you get a chance to talk to them and kind of maybe settle them down. And once you've then they they get a chance to go back out on the ice and and kind of work on what you just said. If a goalie lets in a goal, they're not gonna come to the bench and you don't get a chance to talk to them and say, hey, you know, you this is how you were. You were a little bit out of position, you you know, you misread the play. You don't have that. So mentally the goalie needs to be strong enough on their own and work hard in practice and with their goalie coach to realize, yeah, you know, I was out of position on that one. That was that was on me. And then you just kind of you have to work on that. Um, so that's why it's even tougher to be to be a goalie mentally. It's like you don't have anyone to talk to you afterwards. The players can come down and say it's okay, don't worry about it. But after that, like the players aren't gonna come to you and say, hey man, like you were out of position on the first shot. That's why that one went in. It's just not gonna happen. So you you're on your own little island at times.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:27

What was that quote, Mike? That I forgot who said, What how would you feel of your job if you made a mistake? A red light went on and 20,000 people cheered or booed. What was that? Somebody said that one time.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:37

Yeah, it just it just it's exposed, right? Or you tell your the coach is sending out the defenseman going, hey, the next whistle, go out and tell him. He probably should, you gotta you gotta get on the post for. I'm like, what are you talking about? Like that's you know, he's like he's gonna he's gonna slash me right across my shins.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:49

Yeah, hey, save the puck next time, huh?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:52

Hey, I don't understand that's saving the puck. I mean, well, let me ask something, David, on on at the youth hockey level, like what do you feel about you know, uh, you know, when goalies, because we talked about the mental aspect of a goalie and we're expecting them to do so many different things that a player needs to do sometimes. Like, do you feel like when do you feel it's appropriate that a that a goalie gets to play like a full game as opposed to you know an automatic split? Or is there a you know, is there a hard and fast rule that you try to go with that you know, you have two good goaltenders or two, you know, you've picked two goaltenders, right? So I I mean I'm to me, like I'm not a starter backup guy at the youth level. I'm a I picked you from my team. You're on the team. I mean, imagine if I told four of our defensemen, no, no, you're the backup defensemen. We're gonna play these, these three are gonna our main defensemen, and then you four might get into the game every now and then. Like, how can we do a better job as coaches with goaltenders to really, you know, make sure that, you know, obviously goalies gonna earn more time, but when when do they earn that time? Like not just playing better, but when is the time and what is the age you think, you know, is the best time to start splitting kids or start playing kids for full games or playing, you know, finding that kid that's now gonna play the the the bulk of the season. Um it's always a debate we have, you know, at the youth level for sure. That's a hard one for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:11

Um, because like you said, you picked both goalies, you know, they they're both on the team for the same reason to stop the puck. Um and it's just youth hockey is different than say playing, I don't know, junior junior hockey or um, you know, even starting to get up into the different levels of pro. Um when you know as a goalie, you know, you're you know who the clear-cut starter is and the clear cut backup is. When they're 10 years old or 12 years old, they don't necessarily know that they're really working hard. So they're looking at you as a coach to try and develop them so that they can be the starting goalie. Sure, sometimes you know the team's gonna have a goalie that's much better than the other goalie at 12 or 13 years old. So you know, the goalie who's not quite as good wants to be as good as the other guy. So as a coach, that's kind of your your job is to help that kid who maybe not as good as the other one. You have to try and help him develop to get to that point and you know, really work with him to get there. And I don't think putting them on the bench say, hey, we're gonna start Jimmy or whatever over here for the next three games and you're just gonna sit back and watch. I mean, that doesn't do anything for the development. I think you have to let them get their playing time, um, and you really have to work with them hard in practice to give them the confidence because sometimes when you as a goalie you think you're the backup goalie, you think you're not as good as the other guy, you go in the net and you're like, oh no, like is the team gonna be confident in me? Like, what if I let in one or two goals? Am I gonna get pulled right away? So it's good as a coach to just say, Look, you're here for a reason. This is why you I picked you. You you're on the team. We think you're good enough to play. So we're gonna give you chance to play. I like to split games until I don't know, maybe eleven, maybe, I don't know, even about that age. But then you gotta start getting them into full games because they have to start getting used to playing a full game. You mean that's the that's the hard thing, is that get out there and play a full game, and now you guys know we're just gonna go every other game. Unless you're hurt, then you know, or you're just not feeling well or something like that, then maybe we'll start a guy two two in a row, or be strategic on the teams that you're playing. This guy plays better against these two teams, so this guy's gonna play two in a row, and then this guy's gonna play two in a row, and then we'll go back to one and one. Right. But you really have to communicate to the goalies because that's huge for them.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:22

You know, David, one of the common themes on all of our shows, and Mike and I talk about this all the time, and I always say 10 out of 10 problems are typically caused because of poor communication. Not nine out of ten, ten out of ten. Um, and I think that you know, there are some maybe older school coaches, I'd love to get your thoughts on this, that think, well, let me not tell them who's playing until the last second, um, or let me let me not communicate because that fear will keep them ready to go. Um, I I personally don't agree with that. Um, I don't know where you stand on this, by the way, while I'm saying this, but uh, I think that you know there's a there's there can be too much communication sometimes with this, but what what is the proper way to communicate to a goalie? You know, who's playing or or here's some things I want you to do?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:08

Yeah, I don't think there's a necessarily a proper way to do it. Some goalies are different, like you said. Some if if I told the goalie three days out, hey, you're playing against this team, well, maybe for the next three days, he's gonna be worried about it. Some goalies would some goal goalies would rather you say, you know what, just tell me in the morning. I don't care. Just tell me in the morning, then I'm good. Then I can get myself pumped up for the game for that day. And if I have three days in advance, I'm anxious. So now I'm gonna be worried about it, especially if it's a backup goalie who's not used to playing, and all of a sudden now he's you he knows that he's playing, he's gonna he could be anxious for three days. So you expect all your goalies to come to the ring ready to play, no matter what. You know, I could say this guy or girl is starting that the next day, and then that they come in the day and say, Well, you know what, I don't feel well.

unknown 1:05:51

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:51

Well then the other goalie now has to play, but they wasn't expecting to play and wasn't really ready. So you always have to be ready at all times to play. So I think you know, you kind of have to ask your goalies at the beginning of the year. How do you feel about like when should I tell you?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:04

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:05

I don't I'm sure I'm the coach, but when are you comfortable knowing that you're you're playing?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:09

That's a great question. I bet you that's a it's a great question. I bet you a lot of coaches might not ask, right? Especially at the youth levels. All right. Speaking of questions, last one from me. Um, we actually do this a lot on our our our non-goalie episodes, and I'm realizing we should probably do it on the goalie episodes too. We're we're big proponents here, like the car ride home is not for coaching right after the game. Um, but I think it is important to discuss messaging and conversations with your goaltender as a parent. Um, you know, so I with my son, I try not to talk about any of the games after the games, but one thing I will ask him is uh if he's if he's frustrated or he's got killed, the team got killed, I do ask him, not not in a uh a negative way, but say, hey, do you still want to play goalie? Um and the answer is always yes, right, which is awesome. I I I I'm always amazed sometimes, especially some games. You still want to do this? Yeah, I really do. I really want to do that. So that's kind of how I know, okay, we're we're we're doing it right. But what are some of the uh, you know, you're the dad driving the goalie home, or it's the next day. What are those conversations, right? What shouldn't you say? What shouldn't you say?

unknown 1:07:15

You

SPEAKER_01 1:07:15

No, assuming that the kid even wants to talk to you about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:19

It it was funny for me because my dad was the complete opposite of the way you're talking about. My dad was like, you got in the car, we won 3-0. My dad's like, How did you let that rebound go out in front of the net? Like he would just rip me the whole time and just like really like just beat it into me, you know. Sure, he would give me the positives of the game, great, you played well. But you know, you you should have done this here, you should have done that there. And I there's a lot of parents that are out there that actually still do that to their goalies, and it's tough. It is tough, but it builds you, it builds you mentally. I personally think that if you get in the car um with your goalie on the way home, or even your player on the way home, the first thing you should say to them, not necessarily the first thing, but if you're gonna talk about the game, just you know, give them something positive, say, hey, you played awesome. You know, you may have lost the game, but you played really well, you did this really well. I mean, you were really, you know, tracking the puck and your rebound control was great, or you know, as a player, you know, your passing was awesome today and you know your coverage was great. Then you say, How do you feel about it? Like right, you know, what what are your thoughts on the game? And let them kind of lead the conversation to if there's anything that they they feel like they needed to work on or if they're upset about anything. Almost let them deal with, let them lead it. Because sometimes if you sit there and you s and you kinda point fingers at them, then they're already feeling like crap if they've lost. And then now you're actually shoving it down their throat. It's not gonna make them feel any better, first of all. And second of all, they're gonna sit there and think, like, do I even want to do this anymore? Like, I don't think I want to do this. I'm gonna get I already feel bad enough playing on the ice. Then I get in the car and my parents are ripping on me. Like, you know, some people just don't want to some kids don't want to hear that, and they just say, you know what, forget it. I'm not playing hockey anymore, and it just it ruins it mentally for them. Um, but I think it's easier just to kind of let them lead it. If they if they want to turn around and say, hey, you know, like I didn't I was terrible on this and that. Well, if they say I wasn't I wasn't very good at this, just say it's fine. You know, there's more games to play, there's more practices, you can keep working on it, you can keep you can work on it at home. You know, if there's anything I can do to to help you, then let me know. If not, you know, the coaches can will help you out. But you have to express your opinion or your your concerns to your coaches so that you guys can work on it together as a team. So I think it's just one of those things where you kind of have to let them lead lead the conversation.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:31

Yeah, I think is is it's funny as parents or as adults, I should say, we always want to talk about the game. Or I should say most of the time, we we want to talk about it, but we gotta be conscious to the to the kid. And and you know, I I think uh you know the the advice we've kind of gotten from all of our shows is if you really want to talk about the game, you really feel strongly about it, listen first. And and let, like you said, David, let the kid initiate that conversation. You could probably have a pretty good conversation. Uh, but if your kid says, like, I don't want to talk about it, respect that. All right, like, like here's that other truth, right? I know enough about goaltending to be kind of dangerous at my kid's age. He's played goalie more than I have. Like, you know, it's that's the truth. He's I've never been in the net like him. He probably knows more of what it is in that experience than I do. And here I am, assuming like I know everything you should be doing. You know, and at some point the kid's gonna say that, like, you never even played. You shut up.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:26

Yeah, a hundred percent. And that's the thing a lot of non-goalie parents will tell the goalie what to do, but like you said, you've never been in there, they don't know what it's like to face shots when someone's screening you or like all in your face, they just don't they don't get it, they've never been there, they don't never had that that pressure of being a goalie. And I just think that you know, just let you know, let the goalie get, or even the player in general, just let them develop. You can't force a development on them. You have to, you know, let them develop at their own pace or what their coaches are teaching them. But as a parent, like let them you of course you're gonna sit there and say, you know, I saw this in the game and I saw this when I was sitting in the stands or I was behind the glass, I saw everything, but you don't know what was in their head while they were making that play, right? So uh it's tough to to kind of point fingers at them, but it's definitely you have to be definitely positive. But there's times where you have to be um, you know, constructive criticism too, where you kind of have to say, Hey, you know what, you may have you you may have thought it this way, but this is exactly how it was. And that's why coach a lot of coaches do video as well, because sometimes on the ice you don't see or you think that it happened a different way than it actually did. So um, but you just can't be you just can't throw it down their throats, that's for sure. Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:38

My I think my favorite one, Mike, you'll have it this way when it's young kids for first getting in that. I think my favorite one is hey, stop flinching, stop flinching. Well, hey man, you get in net and have people throw these things at your face, and then you stop flinching, you know, like there's a there's a it's a there's a right way to explain that of the way I did that was hey, they're gonna come, they're gonna come at that in the at that direction. You gotta be ready. Stop flinching, make the same.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:02

Yeah, there's a lot of things that I I tell my goalies too, because if you do get goalies who they flinch, and it's not necessarily because they're afraid to get hurt, it's just that they're not focusing on the puck properly. So I always tell them, you know, just almost pretend that there's a word on that puck that you're that you're trying to read. So that you're actually gonna focus on that puck and read like any kind of word or logo on the puck. Yeah. Really focus on that. Try and see it, try and read it. And you're gonna be able to, you know, your eyes are actually gonna be able to focus a lot more on that. And you're not gonna be worried about it where the puck's going. You're just gonna be worried about focusing on the puck and then you know use your your technique to and your and all your skills to make that safe. Um, it's just one of those things is that people just see the puck come off the stick and they're not actually focusing on it. So you actually really have to give them something to focus on. That's why I try and tell them there's words or logos, really look for it. Like really it comes at you fast, yeah, but you know, you still have to be able to focus. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:58

These are the same people, by the way, that when they're standing behind the net in a warm up or duck ducking out of the way with the glass in front of them. Like uh it's human nature. Um uh David, real quick, I want to just talk about backup goalie life and make sure we get that website out there. You get some really fun stuff on that site.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:16

Yeah, uh, that was actually something I just kind of created during during COVID. I I love hats and um I've probably made about 50 different logos for backup goalie. I've sent it out to a bunch of my buddies, and like we all kind of said you know, the the bug life one was the really cool one. Um so I've done a few different logos. Actually, the one I'm wearing right now is the brand new logo that's actually not even fully out there yet. So um, but a lot of people love this logo too, so that'll be a lot of fun. And it was just it was just for me to do something during COVID, to be honest with you. Uh, and it picked up really real quick. And uh there's a lot of stuff, a lot of stuff out there, hoodies, t-shirts, tokes, hats, beanies as you guys call them.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:53

So um, but yeah, it's a lot of fun. He's Canadian, by the way, if anybody was wondering.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:00

Yeah, they're only what's a toque, yeah. Right. So um, yeah, it's just a lot of it's a lot of fun back on goalie life. Um, it's on there. It's on, I just started up my Instagram on it too. But uh yeah, that's just comfortable wear.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:12

Yeah, if you're looking for some fun stuff or to insult your men's league adult league goalie, just head over there and get him a backup too. Um, no, great stuff, David. Really can't thank you enough for coming on today. And like I was said in the open, there's a lot more to you than just one moment in February of 2020. And I think we dove into that today. And uh, just want to thank you for honestly. Look, all you do for the game, uh, not just from that moment, but you you know, you seem to just really love hockey and and you're a great ambassador for the game. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:40

Absolutely. Yeah, thanks for having me here. It was awesome. Definitely a different uh interview, really cool. Um, kind of going into the coaching side of things, which I love to do. I mean, you know, once you've kind of stopped playing at a high level, it's great to give back to to all the youth and and just get out there and see them grow. You know, there's nothing better than having a kid for three or four years and watching how they develop underneath you uh and the things that you're teaching them, and they're actually taking them, they're getting better, and they're enjoying the game at the same point in time. Um, so I love to to coach and give back. So, you know, being able to talk coaching stuff was was really cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:11

Oh, good. Wait, listen, that might have been the highest compliment you could give us. So we appreciate it. And um, yeah, I think we need to let Mike out of his car. I I doubt there's a good lumbar support in there. You gotta release it. Mike, thanks for sitting through this.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:23

I'm very comfortable in here, but yeah, I gotta get back to uh lifting up uh lifting up a bunch of five-year-olds uh off the ice. So there you go.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:29

Well, Mike, Mike, thank you for being here. David, thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:33

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:33

Yeah, that's gonna do it for this edition of Our Kids Play Goalie. Remember, you can hear this uh episode, every episode we've ever done of Our Kids Play Goalie and Our Kids Play Hockey at our kidsplayhockey.com. Uh make sure you check out uh all of the gift section there. That's how we uh support the show. And if you or your friends listen to share it in your team snap, share it on your game beats, whatever you're using to share the parents. Do that. Uh otherwise, have a wonderful week, everybody. Thanks for listening to Kids PlayGolie. We hope you enjoyed this edition of our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's the podcast network, the social media network, or our website, our kidsplayhockey.com. Also, make sure to check out our children's book when hockey stops.com. Thanks so much for listening to this video.