Pavel Barber on Creativity vs. Application: Are We Teaching Hockey Skills Wrong? (Part 1of 2)

SPEAKER_03 1:23

Hello, hockey friends and families around the world, and welcome to another episode of Our Kids Play Hockey. I'm Leah Lias. I'm joined as always by my good friends Chris Cash, Jana Burns, and Mike Vinelli. And today we're joined by someone you all know. He has inspired an entire generation of hockey players to think differently about skill, creativity, and fun. If you've spent more than five minutes online, you've probably seen him doing something amazing or hilarious with the fuck. But beyond the views and the notoriety, what makes him special is how he uses his skills to teach, motivate, and connect. That's the side we're going to be diving in today. He's a global skills coach, a lifelong student of the game, and a world-class athlete who has represented Team Canada multiple times in Floorball. Friends, families, please welcome Pavel Barber to the show with us today. Mr. Barber, welcome to the show. Wow, unreal, dude. Thank you so much. Good to be here. It's good to have you.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

It is so good to have you here. And we all have seen the digital side of you, and you've wowed us. Um, just incredible. There's so many times I've stopped and rewowed what I just saw and thought, was there some trick photography going on here? No, but it's the real deal. It's amazing. But we would love to hear how it all started for you. Um, what sparked your love for hockey?

SPEAKER_01 2:49

Oh man. Uh, my dad tells a story where I was not playing hockey and I was watching my brother play and I was eating a hot dog and it fell out, and I continued eating the bun because I was so focused on the game. So that's probably the first time uh I realized I was locked in. Uh I I just love everything about the game. I love the speed of the game, the how the game looks uh on TV and just in person, and just the amount of things you could do with a stick and a puck uh and the speed and just yeah, just how fun it is. I think that always captured my attention. And then as I move forward, just uh, you know, doing trick shots and stuff like that. I love doing. Uh my my bigger passion is teaching development, which is the more boring moves, the the moves you'd use more in games, but I do love uh the trick shot aspect of it as well.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

And but in the beginning, when you were just a kid, um, you know, you had to really do some grinding there, right? To get to where you are now today.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Yeah, it's tough to call it grinding. Like I just played on an outdoor rink mostly. Like uh we didn't have uh enough money to get private lessons or nothing like that. So I had a rink five minutes away from me, uh Withrow Park that I would go to whenever I got free time, uh, sometimes skip school to go to. Um and just uh yeah, just had the time of my life just watching my favorite players, uh Paul Crea, Pavel Dadsook, uh do their thing. And I try to replicate it on the ice. I try to figure out moves and break them down myself. Uh just because there was nothing really out there on YouTube, uh, especially back then. I don't even know when YouTube existed when I was young. Uh so uh yeah, I just love trying to, you know, trial and error it, trying to figure out how to do the moves they were doing.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

Yeah, I you know, I love how you reference like that stick handling and movement are like forms of your expression, right? That like, you know, anytime you can you have the ability to to move and flow and play. And you, you know, you mentioned a little while ago, you know, about like not really you yourself in your professional life focusing on the trick shots so much. But you know, there wasn't that long ago that somebody trying to do what you were doing would be blasphemy in hockey. Like you can never do that, you could never try it. Don't ever try to pick the puck up with your stick. And now it's mainstream. It's like you're so you're working with players that are beginners to pro, try to follow your expression and your movements. Can you talk a little bit about you know how a player finds that in themselves instead of just trying to say, hey, I'm gonna copy Pavel Barber? Like, what do you do with your players to help them find their own rhythm and their own balance, you know, and their own ability to have expression with the puck?

SPEAKER_01 5:29

Yeah, I I think we give them a baseline of fundamentals that are crucial that every player has to have. But then we also tell them you got to form your own player identity, which is you putting yourself in situations where you're constantly having to find creative solutions. So, you know, in games like being able to do little two-on-one games where you have a man advantage to uh force you to have a little bit more options and space, and then more condensed games where it's more three-on-three close or five on five close. Uh, and you're just trying to bring awareness to them and say, like, hey, in this situation, like this is a time where we're gonna need to protect the puck versus this situation is a time we can attack. Uh, and it's just I think it's all about just encouraging them uh to get involved in the process of trying to figure out what those creative solutions are versus telling them every single time this situation, do this. That just doesn't work. You're not gonna be in their head all game. You've got to get them thinking for themselves, and that's a huge aspect of coaching, uh, I think is teaching kids to think for themselves, give them some kind of awareness, uh, but really teach them like, hey, like, you know, we want you to, you know, find a creative solution for this scenario uh and be able to analyze whether it worked, whether it didn't, and and and also try to find out why uh it worked or or didn't. And that's really uh a good basis for long-term progression, I think.

SPEAKER_03 6:53

You know, Pavel, that is the perfect lead-in to the next question, but I'm gonna set it up with a couple stories. We we've been talking on this show, I think for years now. We've been we've been on the air for a long time, but the last few years we've been talking about this um problem. I'm gonna say that. Of we always give the scenario of the offensive kid skating directly at the defenseman with the puck on their stick with no puck protection, and then trying to do five dangles to get around the D when you could literally could have just skated around the D. All right. Now I love what you just said about it, can't just be A to B every time you have to do this, right? So we're at a weird inflection point, uh uh, especially in youth hockey, right? Where the kids they love the skills, especially the high-level skills, they love the wow skills. I I I'm gonna say this. I don't believe there to be a bigger authority on what we're about to discuss in the game than you. And I am not just saying that to compliment you because the audience we have today, not just the parents, but the kids listening, and we'll do a ride to the rink later too, they're gonna listen to you over every parent and coach in the game right now about about this discussion. Right? And I I want to talk about from your perspective the biggest opportunities and blind blind spots and how we teach these skills. Because what what I try and do as a coach is tell that kid I just described is I'm not against you doing a tow drag, I'm not against you doing fantastic hockey moves, but there's a time and a place. And I need you to learn when there is a time or a place to do it. Coming over the blue line when no one's really on you is not the time or the place. How do we start uh explaining to the kids that in a way that that maybe they'll listen or they'll pick up on it without stunting uh their uh creativity? Because I agree with you that if if the if we take the creativity out of the game, what what what do we do it? Might as well be in school with a desk at that point, right? So the blind spots, the opportunities. What do you think the biggest ones are? And then how do you think we can even broach this with kids? Or maybe it's just you telling them right now, and we'll play that clip over and over and over again across the internet until they pick up on it.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

Yeah, I mean, I think like you said, like you got to keep the creativity in the game, but you got to teach the application of moves. So, you know, it's one to know how to do a move, and then it's quite another to be able to apply it in-game, and that just takes an awareness of the situation in front of you and what that situation calls for. Uh, you know, we teach a lot of uh advantage existing versus create an advantage hockey. So it's like, you know, if there's an advantage existing, that's when you want to just read and react. Like a defender turns his feet, you want to be able to go the other way immediately. That's just an advantage already existing, no need to make a move versus all things equal. You're gonna need to create an advantage through deception to force them to turn their feet or uh overextend themselves in some way. So I think that's like that's the main, more general uh answer to that. Yeah, just to teach players to uh constantly look for advantages that already exist, whether it's a number advantage, a speed advantage, an angle advantage, a gap advantage, whatever it is. Uh you want to teach players to really uh look out for that. Uh but I I I like what you said about the toe drag because I know people get really, really stuck on the labels uh in hockey. People use the term flashy, uh, whatever term you want to use. I mean, back when I played, uh, you know, a toe drag was insane uh to do. Uh now it nowadays a toe drag is a very easy move uh for these players coming into the league uh or or younger. You know, I've taught a lot of camps to see the skill level at age 12. But again, it's just about the application. So a toe drag is just a lateral fake where you get them overexposed and then you use the toe to drag it in to protect further to get it across to the backhand. It's no different than a fake forehand and go backhand. We're just adding a bit of protection through that toe drag fake. So it's teaching kids like, well, when would you need to toe drag? Well, probably when uh you need a bit more protection, right? And when you're getting them to overcommit to that side, uh, typically on the strong side, it it you it works a little bit more. But I think the main thing is just to get that message across the kids, like stay away from labeling things flashy and think about the application, like that fake shot or fake pass where you pull it between the legs. That used to be crazy. And people used to be like, oh my god, what a move! And it's like, not really, like it's in basketball, they do it all the time, dribble between the legs, they do it to put their body between themselves and the battle and the basketball. Hockey, same thing. Like if you want to go between the legs to protect, it's not a flashy move. Uh, you know, and you can be very, very well practiced and consistent in it. Uh, it's just a very uh well-applied move if you use it uh in the right situations. Right.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

And are you finding more kids wanting to kind of gloss over the fundamentals because they're not really fun, you know, and you still have to emphasize the importance of those deep crossovers, your stride, your skating skills. Um, I I found a lot of kids that I've talked to, they just want to do the trick shots. That's what they want to focus on. Um, so how much do you, when you when you're working with these kids, parents and coaches, to emphasize, hey, look, kids, before you get to that point, you got to work on the fundamentals.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

Yeah, I think kids are probably disappointed sometimes in my camps with the uh we don't do Michigans ever, we don't do Zoro's ever and stuff. Like I'll do it for fun for them after if we have time. But when it's time on the ice to develop, there's so many better things to work on. There's so many more applicable things to work on. So, like you said, the most important part of the game is by far skating. And I think people get that mixed up with what I do because I chose to specify with puck control, but I'm always like saying to kids like skating is by far the most important thing. Like, you can be a good skater and uh a below average sick handler and make it far. If you have really, really good hands and bad skating, you'll make it anywhere. Like, it's it's just it's so much more important to be a good skater. That's the foundation that actually helps set up the moves for the elimination uh and deception of the of the stuff you do with the hands. So uh definitely you gotta look at kids and be like, you know, they're always gonna be enthralled by the fun stuff, the trick shot stuff, and whatever it is. And you you've got to be able to make the fundamentals fun. So I try and do that in my camps where it's like we build in the fundamentals in drills that are more gamified. Uh, you know, we time them when they're doing tight turns. Uh, directional change is so important to get very, very efficient. So we'll just time them and you'll watch, kids will buzz if you put a little competition on it, uh, a little relay race, little timing of themselves, whatever it is. There's always ways to make it fun, gamified, so that they're actually working on okay, if I want to get a better time, how can I be more efficient? How can I turn tighter? And then you get in those teaching points. Like, okay, on this, we're going fast. We need to shave the ice to decelerate a bit to turn tighter. That's how you teach a punch turn. You get it really in their heads, like, okay, that was that was faster. And then that'll translate to a game. So you gotta meet kids where they're at for sure. And their attention spans, I realized two years in, uh, you know, if I'm talking for like 25 seconds, I've lost them. So uh very, very quick to the point, get them going, even if it's good information, no information's good if it's not uh, you know, uh actually retained. So uh get them moving a lot, uh keep it short and sweet for sure.

SPEAKER_02 14:42

You do you think it's an impediment when you're teaching uh a lot of these skills, right? And you talk about the fundamentals, which is fine, but the fundamentals has changed. You know, but when I started playing, you know, if you didn't, if you were a right winger and you left the right wing lane, you know, you're getting you're getting probably sat for like two shifts, you know, three shifts. Right. Like there was no, like, so I think is it an impediment to have, and maybe this is almost a cautionary tale to like parents as they're approaching uh picking their team, you know, picking their kids' team and and seeing who the coaches are, you know, those those coaches that say, oh, well, that back in my day, you couldn't do that. Well, the fact is you can do that now. Yeah, like a like a toe drag, a reverse, you know, reverse uh backhand toe drag, a spin of rama, pucks between the legs, you know, uh, you know, when you watch a kid like Quinn Hughes or Cole Caulfield and the stuff that they're doing, like to a lot of coaches that are coaching Youth hockey now, that was forbidden. Like, don't even you can't even try it. And now it's an actual uh a staple part of the game. Can you just talk a little bit about like as you're working with your camps and clinics and and your individual players, like how do you approach them on trying to get over the fact that, hey, maybe your coach may not like this piece, but it goes hand in hand with with development?

SPEAKER_01 16:00

Yeah, I I think uh, you know, obviously the best coaches evolve with the times and stuff like that, and some are definitely stuck in the past, as you said. I think for kids, it's it's all about relaying to them like, you know, you have to think about skills in terms of their application on the ice. Do they have an application? Like, I always use the example of like doing a backflip on the ice, that's cool, but like, yeah, what does that do? Like, that's a useless skill. That's that's useless creativity versus you know, something where you go between the legs that actually has an application where you're protecting. So you teach them like, is there an application? Uh, are you well practiced in the move? And if you are and you're quite consistent with the move, that's when you can apply it in games.

SPEAKER_04 16:45

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

Uh, you know, a lot of the turnover rate goes way up when you're way less consistent with moves. So I definitely caution kids to use moves they've never done before in games. That's why we practice uh and stuff like that. But when you become consistent and you isolate the scenarios in the game where those plays are appropriate, use them and and and have that conversation with your coach, uh, not as a combatant conversation, but like a learning thing. Like, hey, like I just see this move as I need to get the puck to this area and I really want to protect it. And I didn't have any options on my right. So I was trying, I this is what I was thinking. I was trying to put it to space here to protect, to get that puck deep and get in a conversation with the coach. Uh, you know, I I think the the conversations I have online when people say moves are too flashy, and I've seen them done in the NHL, as I'm like, you know, number one, it's been done in the NHL, but number two, let's think about its application, right? Like you take the the far end of it, the Michigan. Like I remember when it didn't go in, I was like, it's gonna go in eventually because there are so many opportunities for it and too close. But the the naysayers were like, oh, the defense is too good, it's the NHL, and it's like, man, like in the NHL, defensive lapses happen, like far less than minor hockey for sure, but they do exist, and you know, you don't have to label a Michigan like a flashy move. Like these like 20-year-olds can do it like nothing, pick the puck on their stick, 10-year-olds can a wrap rap before the puck.

SPEAKER_02 18:19

Well, listen, that and that's a say that well, that that was my point. Like, I tell our players, like at the end of the day, if you scored five Michigans in a game, it's still a goal. Like, it doesn't say Michigan goal, it says goal. And if you are able to do it, and this is where you have to balance skill development, who you're playing, how it applies to the game, right, Pavel, that that you're like you say, hey, listen, I love the fact that you can do this, but you have to know the application around when you can and can't. And the bottom line is if you see that a goalie is in a vulnerable position, that a defenseman is not on that side of the net, that you have an opportunity to pick the fuck up and have time, yes, do it. If you could do that every single time, it's just like a snapshot. It's just like, I mean, listen, it wasn't that long ago where people could could look at a backhand and be like, oh my god, a backhand. Like I can't believe I can't believe somebody can take a backhand. So it's really one of these, you know, one of these things that as the game evolves and the players evolve and the and the equipment evolves, you know, the ability to do these things. I mean, I don't know, try doing a Michigan. I guess that's the next video, maybe, right? Do a do a Michigan with an old Victoriaville, you know, wood, uh, you know, whatever those things, you know, see if that thing works. If anyone could do it, just yeah, but I'm just saying, I'm just saying, allow allow that evolution to happen. I think it, I mean, the kids uh that try these things and and get on their own and have people like you mentoring them, you know, they can explore all the the you know the those challenges, but the edges of development, which really makes us all better.

SPEAKER_03 19:49

Well, Mike, I want to I want to pull the throat on that too for this, Pavel, because like I agree with you, Mike. Like there is a time and a place to agree with you too, Pavel, where a Michigan is potentially the correct play, right? But I I I got a page of notes here, and I'm gonna say this. Pavel, when you talk about puck control, first off, I I I'm a big fan of the last dance documentary that was on ESPN, right? Oh, yeah, yeah. And there's this great scene where Dennis Rodman is talking about rebounding, and they just keep cutting to all of his knowledge about rebounding, and he just talks and talks. When you speak about puck control, though, you remind me of him because that's how in-depth you are. But I've got to say this, and you said this. The authority on puck control just told this entire audience that skating is an invaluable skill and that you need that skill. He said that, right? So when we say as coaches, Mike and I, right, that there's a time and a place for a Michigan, we really believe that. But, and this is this is where I'm going with this, right? When you choose to focus on your development, kids, I'm talking to you. There's nothing wrong with practicing a Michigan. But my question to you as a coach, and this is how I try and approach kids on my own team, is I love that you can do that Michigan. But how often are we going to be able to use that versus speed deception? And how often are you working on your speed deception? And then Pavel, to your point, you you said earlier, and this is a this is my question, because I think this is an important uh question for hockey right now. You had mentioned that a lot of people see that speed deception or something else as boring right now or as not flashy. Well, when I was growing up, you know what was fun? I wrote this down fun with a question mark. What was fun when I was a kid was scoring. Like scoring was fun, and we wanted to do whatever we could to get to that net to score. And I think we're losing that a little bit because I'll watch a kid do that toe drag move I talked about and lose the puck six or seven times in a game, and he's okay doing that, or she's okay doing that as long as they get it done once. But nowhere in that thought process is let's win the game or let's score a goal. I know they want that. Don't get me wrong, kids. I'm not saying you don't want that. But when I was a kid, I'm not trying to sound old here, scoring was the fun. And you built the skills to get the puck in the net. I always joke with my pleasure. You know what's a great goal? One that goes in. All right. So sometimes it doesn't matter how it goes in.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

Right.

SPEAKER_03 22:28

Here's the question I'm leading to, right? How can we make those skill sets in addition to the other stuff fun again? Speed deception to me, now I'm a hockey nerd, all right, but that's a fun skill to me. All right. The the the like you said, the way you described a tow drag in application, that seems fun to me. How can we as coaches, how can we as a hockey community, this is not just uh just one one aspect of it, how can we start to make uh what is perceived as mundane fun again? And you you alluded to it a little bit with the the gamification. But man, like it it boggles my mind. Like you uh uh if a kid would rather pull off a toe drag than score, and and again, kids, I I know you're gonna disagree with me all that's I want to score. Well, I mean, I have some evidence that shows that that that might not be fully as true as you think it is. I'm being critical here. But Pablo, I'm gonna throw this to you because I think you know, again, you say it all the time, right? Like I I the flashy stuff, it it's fun, but I think it's all fun. How can we make that stuff fun?

SPEAKER_01 23:35

Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's tough. Like, you wanna obviously praise like effort uh more than result in in hockey and whatever it is, but the results obviously matter. So it's like, you know, I always teach kids like, you know, first we want to get to the area we can score consistently, then we can work on the finishing, and the finishing is always the most fun part of it. I I would go nuts whenever I scored, like I remember what I played. Uh, but you know, the main thing is being able to have the skills to get to those key areas. Uh, so I, you know, I think the the biggest thing for kids is just like, you know, get as many skills as you can and and learn the application of those skills first, but then also it's like you gotta be really, really obsessed with with scoring, like really, really obsessed with whatever it takes putting that puck in the net. And that in itself is a skill. Uh, and you see it with players with below average skills by NHL standards, of course, uh, getting high goal rates in the NHL. And that's just putting themselves in those key areas. Some are just garbage goal guys, uh, you know, some are guys that just know where to be. There's a show though. Yeah, some guys have really good centermen that just put it on a T, but you still got to be so good uh at that. So, I mean, a lot of it I think uh like gets undertalked about is like the work away from the puck as well. Uh, we teach that in in games where it's uh like we do little games where you actually get points to for going to areas that are unmarked and just force themselves to move off of checks and constantly be in a state of free flowing and moving around the ice instead of just staying in their wings. Um, but I think it's just like, you know, uh I'll lose what I just said earlier, just making it a game uh to these kids and and and praising them for that. Uh, you know, not just not just scoring goals, but like moving away from the puck, uh, you know, and for just knowing like, oh, like this was a situation, I should have used this move or shouldn't have. Like a lot of times in training, we'll take a kid aside when a move doesn't work, we'll ask him, like, why didn't that work? Often they don't have an answer, which is fine. Uh, but sometimes they do. And the more you get them involved in the process, you don't have to be like, oh, that was the wrong time for that. Like, let them describe it. You know, let them describe, like, oh, I thought he was more shifted on this side. I thought I'd open him up here. And uh, and then also telling kids, like, hey, like one-on-one, the execution rate isn't very high. Uh, right, like a lot of time just getting in the zone, protecting the puck, and getting an okay shot off in a one-on-one isn't a bad option as well. Uh, but I mean, that's gonna uh end up in more goals anyway. And like you said earlier, it's like hockey is such an indirect game. Uh, you're gonna have way more uh success not going wherever the puck is straight line to the net than you are, you know, uh mirroring off to the side or setting up and making a few passes, whatever it is, just to clear up space for yourself. So I think just making games around that, getting the kids moving is the key to it.

SPEAKER_03 26:42

Well, I'll tell you something else too, man, that you're bringing up that uh I want to I'm learning, right? Is that at least maybe the language of how to explain it is I really love that you're talking about the application because you know I I also want to say to the kids listening, I'm not against you trying stuff, I'm really not. Uh, but I I like you just explained, I want to understand what your thought process was. So again, this one is just fresh in my mind of of the kid who did a tow drag last night uh when he didn't have to. Like there needs to be a discussion from me of what did you see there uh that spawned that move? Right now, personally, I'm hoping the answer was I didn't see anything, I just did it. Then I could explain to him, okay, maybe that's not the right way to approach that move. Uh, because there is a right time for a tow drag. There is a right time for a Michigan, right? Uh, there's also a right time, like you said, of getting to the open areas or getting to high scoring areas. So I think for the coaches listening specifically, too, maybe that's a question we need to start uh uh approaching a little bit more. Like, let's talk about the application here of why did you believe that was the correct move to make there without the the judgment of it's the wrong move you made, right? Yeah, let's let the kid talk and tell you why they'll probably come to that conclusion on their on their own if you ask that.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

Yeah, well, the the issue is like when you tell a kid like when he does a toe drag doesn't work, and then you berate him for it, yeah, that kid will instinctively think I shouldn't toe drag. And that's it that's the exact opposite of what you want. So I think just having a conversation around it, uh, you know, I I I love telling kids and and anyone, like, don't take my word for it. Here's here's the examples, right? Like, here's just examples of, and I have a list, I'm trying to compile more unsuccessful ones because I think they teach more, but successful toe drags versus non, or you know, successful backhand turn situations versus not, right? Right. Uh, you know, you you got to teach the where and when. Uh, you know, we always talk about practice players, players who can do the acquisition portion. They are all well learned with the skill, they can do it consistently, they get to games, it doesn't work. Well, that's that's also the coach's job is teaching the application side, get involved in the the mental side of hockey where it's like, okay, here's a situation where, like, take it like strong side, weak side moves. Like you have a completely different set of moves that are more appropriate from the strong side, righty coming down the right wing than lefty coming down the left. Uh on a two-on-one, you'll carry one in front of your body versus one behind to have that forehand option available immediately. Uh, there's a myriad of NHL examples where it's just them doing just that. Uh, it's very simple. It's just how you carry the puck. I watch kids do two-on-ones at age eight to ten. Almost none of them do that. Obviously, like they're not going to know that instinctively, right? They're just, you know, just carrying the puck in front of them as they're taught. But it's like, that's such an easy, coachable thing. It's like on a two-on-one, strong side, carry that puck in front of you, have that pass option, shot option, and stick handle option, eye the D, come on the angle to force a decision to block the shot or pass. And you do the same thing from weak side, except they're carrying it behind them. And it's just, and just run that, you know, make a game of it, have it like one team versus the other. Who can score more two-on-one goals? You'll realize it's way more beneficial to carry that puck in that right spot and come on the angle really, really quick versus kids will stay on the dots if you don't teach them anything, they'll just stay on the outsides and get a pretty poor two-on-one option. Uh, so it's like I I love teaching kids through effective examples and and and winning a game, right? Like, not that winning's everything. I definitely don't believe that, but that's what's gonna get kids excited.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

And Papa, how do you help kids deal with accepting mistakes? Uh so many parents don't like to see their kids fail. You know, they want to snowplow the way for them all the time. The snowplow parents out there, make sure the kid never fails. But and kids do, I think they're hesitant, they're so worried about making a mistake and failing. But as you know, you know, all the tricks that that that you show that we watch online, I'm sure they weren't perfected the first time around. You got to keep trying and trying and trying, right? And I think kids today have a hard time experimenting and being okay with failure. How do you help them balance that?

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Yeah, well, we we redefine failure immediately, like at my camps and stuff, where it's like, you know, failure is not only inevitable, but it you have to do it to get better. Uh, it's the best way to get better. You learn a lot more from failure than your successes, and that's just a fact. Um, you look at examples of NHL players, you don't see their failures growing up. I've talked to many of them. Uh, you know, failure was their friend growing up, they they would go through a ton of drills, they'd mess them up, they'd learn from them, they'd grow. And that's just that's just how we get better. So I like to separate there's like good failure and bad failure. Good failure is where you're completely focused, you put in maximum effort, and you have a goal and you try and go get it. Whatever you do with that mindset and that uh that approach, you're gonna benefit from because you're gonna get feedback from that failure. Bad failure is when you're not focused, you're not putting in good effort, uh, right, and then you do something, you're unaware of where you went wrong, you learn nothing from it. That is useless failure. So we want to teach that first the mindset going into the drill, whatever skill you're trying to work on, and then trying to get feedback from it. And then we encourage the failures when they're met with the effort, uh, because we know you learned something, you actually did get better. You can mess up a drill 10 times out of 10 and you got better. That frustration will actually be the fuel to you learning that skill faster. And I know that personally, I get way too frustrated, uh, especially as a kid. I would I didn't have this mindset for failure back then. I wish I did. I would be way too hard up, way too hard on myself when I did mess up. I'd expect myself to get this skill way quicker than I did. I wouldn't give myself much leniency there, but uh, you have to. Uh, it's failures are friend, and it's if those who fail more correct more, and those who correct more get better faster. Uh, and when you're correcting more, you're actually retaining that information and building that skill set way, way deeper, and you're gonna be more consistent as well. Like the more you understand, like you go through that trial and error process and you realize, oh, this is where I messed up the skill, or this is where I messed it up, then when you met and when you do it uh right in the future or wrong in the future, you know exactly where you went right or wrong. And that's so key for consistency because when you know the exact moment of this is what I did wrong, I didn't push my top hand out enough, it didn't rotate it, wasn't at the heel of my blade, so it spun up. Whatever that is, if they know that, awesome. Like you're gonna build so much consistency in your game uh through that just awareness of where the failure was.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

Such a good perspective for parents to listen to, too. So I'm curious, like how many takes on your videos before you get it right?

SPEAKER_01 33:46

Oh, it would depend on the move.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

Like the trick show ones, some are like one where you've got all the pucks lined up on the edge of the ring, and you're shooting. Yeah, and then you're how many takes did that?

SPEAKER_01 33:58

Yeah, so like we've done like the the Canadian citizenship test, we did that first take. Uh, but usually that's a that's absolutely an anomaly. Usually it's like five, seven takes, whatever. And that's right. We we bring our hoodies out and we like put them in our pouch to collect the pucks quick. So it's actually a lot quicker than people think to pick it up. But uh yeah, it's definitely failing at that uh many times before I succeed.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

You know, it's so fun to watch, so really entertaining. I wonder how do you come up with what's the next great move? I mean, what do you do you think about it at night? Do you like draw diagrams?

SPEAKER_01 34:39

Yeah, I I think a lot of times I build on what's out there and try to either do different combinations of what I can already do or uh lead into a different one, like you know, uh like and sometimes I'll just like randomly think of it. Uh it'll just spawn in my head. I don't know, but it's probably I ruminate over it a lot, uh, and I watch a lot of stuff that uh I do or other people do and think like, oh, what if I did this instead, or like one where I faked a baseball swing it and let it bounce off the ice house? Like, no one's done that. Uh maybe I'll try and so fun to watch.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

Really, and every all of us ask, what will you think of next?

SPEAKER_03 35:17

Well, and that's that's the beauty of it, Christy. And Pablo, I'm gonna pay you a compliment, you know, something something I don't think you get enough credit for. All right. Oh, and before I say that, I will say for the audience listening, uh, your backflip video, you know which one I'm talking about? I bet you that was one take. People need to go watch that video. I enjoyed it. Oh, yeah, yeah, that was definitely a one take video. Um, you guys can look that one up to see what I'm talking about. But uh Pablo, here's here's a compliment I'm gonna pay you. You've wowed us over the years with a lot of different skills, all right? Um what I don't think I hear people say enough is this um when you do something for the first time on video, in the sense of like you've accomplished it and we see it. We don't give you enough credit for now that we've seen it, we know it's possible. And I think that that is such an important aspect of you because again, you know, I know we all have that oh moment, right, when when you do something fantastic, but there's a kid watching that that immediately starts thinking, okay, I can try and do that. I've seen that for the first time now, all right? That's that's a trailblazer, and that's innovation, right? Um, and I don't think you get enough credit for that aspect of it because what you're doing, and again, this does not negate the conversation we had earlier about you know important skill sets and things like that, but you are challenging kids to dream and to push beyond their skill sets. All right, hockey friends and families, we hope you're enjoying this interview with Pablo Barber. Guess what? This is just part one of a two-part series. We'll be back soon with the second half where we dive into him as an international athlete with Canada in multiple sports, not to mention the secret sauce it takes to really be great in this game. We dive into that. Uh, you'll see I'll have like an epiphany with that later in the episode. And then also just the discipline and the passion that it takes to really be Pavel Barber and why he's so great at what he does. We hope you enjoyed this one. We'll see you next time on Our Kids Play Hockey. That's part two. We hope you enjoyed this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or our website, our kidsplayhockey.com. Also, make sure to check out our children's book, When Hockey Stops, at When Hockey Stops.com. It's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much for listening to this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey, and we'll see you on the next episode.