Playing Top Line Hockey with Boo Nieves

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Hey everybody, got an NHL player on the show of the day. Boo Nieves, who played for the New York Rangers and the Hartford Wolfpack joins us today. Uh Boo is an amazing human being. Grew up in uh central northern New York area uh and really had a wonderful journey to the league, which we discussed. But we also really dive into training and development at the youth level, something I know that's always a hot topic on the show. And we also dive into diversity and and and other things as well on the show. It really runs the gamut of uh our kids play hockey lore today. So you're really gonna enjoy it. So uh uh let's dive into that in a second. Uh also if you're loving the show, uh those five-star reviews on Apple, Spotify, wherever you listen, really help us, along with shares. We're always trying to grow our audience, bring them into our community on Facebook, Our Kids Play Hockey. Uh, or share the website, our kidsplayhockey.com and your team snapshare, your favorite episode. I think you get the point of what I'm trying to say. Uh, your help is always, always appreciated. We love you as an audience, and we continue to grow. You're an award-winning audience for an award-winning show. All right, let's get you to the show with Boonie Eves on our kids play hockey. Hello, hockey friends and families around the world, and welcome to another edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. I'm Leah Lias, and I'm joined by two people whom I would drop the gloves for in a regular season or a playoff game: Mike Benelli and Christy Cassiano Burns. And our guest today, Boonie Evess, is a former player for the New York Rangers and the Hartford Wolfpack and is a proud graduate of the University of Michigan, where he played for four years. Today, Boo is the owner and a trainer at Top Line Hockey in Queens, New York, which offers a variety of training for hockey players beyond practices and games, which we will get into today. Parents, you're gonna love this episode. Boo is an amazing person, and we are happy to have him here today. Boo, welcome to our kids play hockey.

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Thank you, Lee. I appreciate it. Excited to do uh excited to dive in.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Yeah, we're excited to have you too, man. So, Boo, let me ask you this real quick before we dive into everything else, because I know Christy is dive jumping to towards talking to you for lots of different reasons. But one of my favorite questions to ask pro athletes uh that come on the show is when you reflect on your first moments in the NHL, what do you remember and what do you feel today? I'm I know on the day it's a whirlwind and you're you're in your mode, but you look back at it now. Uh, there's some amazing pictures of you online, by the way, in that Rangers jersey. What is the reflection on that moment?

SPEAKER_01 3:43

Um I I think when I first stepped on the ice with a Rangers jersey in my first game, it was, I mean, the word surreal doesn't really describe it. It's it's one of those things where you take that first lap and you feel like every single thing you've done in your life has led up to that and you're exactly where you're supposed to be. And it just feels like time kind of stands still for a second, and it's it's truly an it's an unforgettable feeling. And now looking back on it, I didn't realize the magnitude of what I was doing. I didn't really understand it because at the time I was like, well, I'm a professional hockey player, this is where I'm supposed to be. And now that I'm on the other side of it trying to get these kids to the same level I was at, it's it's it's pretty crazy to see how many kids are really pushing at that level and how good the kids are these days and how small that funnel's become. And it just kind of every day it's a reminder of how special that moment really was.

SPEAKER_03 4:36

Super special. We're gonna get more into that and and what you're doing now to grow the game and to help kids along. But I was wondering if we can hit the rewind button and go back to some of your humble beginnings. I'm just gonna brag right now because he's one of our hometown heroes, he's from central New York, my part of the country. And we're so excited because we look at you, we look at Al Tuck and Joel Faraby and Anthony Angelo and you guys, you all and you're all friends too. Grew up playing hockey here in Syracuse, uh, New York, central New York. We're so excited at what you've been able to accomplish. But let's take you back to the beginning. Well, you're just this little kid, you know, you're playing in Baldwinville, New York. I know you had aspirations and dreams. But so how did you make that jump? Especially when you you decided to leave us to go to prep school. That had to be a tough call.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, yeah, like you said, you know, growing up in central New York was um, it was wasn't much to do other than play hockey in the winter and lacrosse in the summer. So um, no, it it was amazing growing up there. Um I you know what's funny, I was such a naive little kid that I I always was like, yeah, I'm gonna play in the NHL. Like I like this and I'm good at it. But it was never in, you know, that coming from like an arrogant side. It was just I was just naive and I just had these big dreams. And my parents were were the most supportive they could have possibly been. Um and I come from a family of of four kids. So, you know, with two parents, you know, they're being outnumbered, they're playing zone defense on us their whole life. So there's a lot going on there and and for them to drive through the snow. Um, you know, I played over in Lysander, I played in Camillas. Um, we'd go up to the Twin Rings in Cicero. And, you know, on a typical winter night, that could be an hour and 15 minute drive from Baldwin's. Like that's and it's it's a blizzard, you can't even see. And you know, talking about out loud now, this is actually insane that my parents are doing this for me multiple times a week. Um that's what we do. That's it is, it's it is, it's it's what it takes. Um, no, it was amazing growing up there, and it was it was so much fun because I I can really appreciate other other parts of the world, like being in New York City. You know, waking up here is is is so exciting. And yeah, I I can appreciate everybody that comes from different parts of the world in this in this country. And and obviously, as you touched on with the other guys like Al and um, you know, Joel and Anthony. And it's funny, Al actually had a rink in his backyard we would always play at. And Luke, now who's it's bizarre seeing him grow up. We used to we used to bully him and check him over the boards because the boards were only about this high. So we would throw him like over into the snow, and it was so dark he could barely find his way back into the rink. And that was mine and Al's little thing we would do.

SPEAKER_03 7:20

And no, it was talking about Al's little brother Luke, is that so little anymore?

SPEAKER_01 7:25

Yeah, who's not little at all? He's he's a BU right now, isn't he? He's he's he's far from little now. Um yeah, no, it was amazing.

SPEAKER_03 7:34

So, what made you decide to leave us at a pre when you were 16, I think, when you went to prep school? Yeah, yes, that had been a difficult. I mean, you wrestle with a lot of feelings, you know. You you gotta leave your friends, your family, and go off to prep school to pursue your dream. How did you how did you come to that decision?

SPEAKER_01 7:54

So originally I was supposed to go play for the national team development program in Ann Arbor. Um, and that didn't work out. So the plan, my plan B was to go straight to the USHL and go to the Midwest. And my dad looked at me and said, Absolutely not. I was already committed to Michigan at the time. And he was like, You're going to boarding school. You have an awesome opportunity. You already know where you're going to college. This is a no-brainer. And I was like, Absolutely not. I'm not going to boarding school. And he goes, We're going to go check out a couple schools, um, see how you like them. And the one school I ended up really liking, I obviously went to was Kent. Um, and Matt Herr, my coach at the time, had played at Michigan. Um, and he's really what sold me, honestly. He was such an awesome coach, um, such a good guy off the ice. Um, and when he he first had me visit, he was telling me all about Michigan. And I was getting so excited about going to Michigan that he was like, well, think about it this way. This is just a quick two-year pit stop and you'll be on your way. And I was like, I'm sold, I'm in. And um obviously, you know, it was a it was a bit of a process. Um, and yeah, you know, it was tough leaving my friends because growing up in such New York, you don't really leave to go to boarding school like a lot of the times. Um, so it was really hard. I was like the only one of my friend group leaving. And I I came home, I remember for the first time, and our breaks didn't line up at all. So I'd be home for like two weeks for like Thanksgiving, and I'm like, calling my best friend Tim, two houses down the street. And I'm like, hey Margaret, can Tim play? And she's like, Boo, he's at school for the next two weeks. What are you what are you talking about? So that was kind of an adjustment. Um, so I didn't really get to see anyone for a while. Um, but at the end of the day, I actually I spoke with Lee about this a couple weeks ago. It was the best decision I ever made. Um, some of my best friends were all from boarding school. Um, all the weddings I've gone to this summer are all friends from boarding school. Um, stuff is something I want my kids to experience. So it was it was definitely a great decision.

SPEAKER_03 9:47

And it's good for kids to hear this now because, like you said, I mean, there are a lot of emotions that you go through. And you know, you're you're concerned about is this the the right choice? Is this gonna lead me down the right path? Um, and you make a lot of sacrifices. So it's important for kids to hear, you know, as what you went through to help them make that decision too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

Yeah. Yeah. No, it's it's like we said, it's definitely not an easy one, but you you grow up very quickly too, right? I mean, it was the first time I was truly on my own. You know, I'd gone to hockey camps for, you know, a week at a time where you can get away with not washing your sheets. But when you're at a place for six months and you come home every day and your bed's not made, no one's making you breakfast, you know, teachers are only coming to your room to make sure you're doing your homework. And if you're not, it's it's kind of on you. You know what I mean? Like they they really force you to grow up and it makes that transition to college so seamless. So highly recommended.

SPEAKER_03 10:41

All right. I got one question from my son, who you know, because you guys used to work out together in the gym. So he wanted to know about your time at Michigan. And I'm going to quote his question here. The college game has really changed, elevated, you helped elevate actually the quality of play in recent years. And so many have chosen to go the college route. Michigan has become one of the top schools to attract talent like you. What was it about Michigan's program that made it so attractive to you? Because you did have other options.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

Yeah, um, it was actually funny. My dad really wanted me to go to Colgate. That was he had his heart set on it because it was 45 minutes away from home and he could come watch me play. And I was like, Dad, I love you and I know how much you've sacrificed for me, but I want to go to Michigan. And he was like, he's like, if if it were any of your other siblings, I think I'd say no. But for you, I think it's okay. Um, so I I honestly, the selling point again was the coach. It was Red Baronson. Um, that guy is a true legend. Um, I can't help but smirk when I think about some of the talks that we'd have, you know, one-on-one. Um he loved, you know, the team atmosphere. And it was funny actually. One time I was sitting in the back lounge and I was I had just been made captain, one of my senior year. And he came over to me and he goes, What are you guys doing tonight? And I'm like, I don't know, it's Friday. We're just probably gonna lay low, you know. He goes, You should have a team party. And I was like, Is this like a test? Are you waiting for me to like? He's like, I really like team parties because you guys get to know players and you talk to players you don't normally talk to. And I was like, the way this guy just simplifies everything is just it's incredible. And and yeah, no, I mean Michigan's been a powerhouse this last couple years, and um, you know, I can't take credit for that. There's there were some amazing players when I was there. We played with um, you know, one of my um owners with me, Justin Selman, who's a captain with me, JT Comfer, Zach Werensky, John Merrill, um uh Dylan Larkin, Tyler Mott, Jacob Truba, Andy Kopp. I mean, all those guys were in Michigan just in the four years I was there. Um, and then obviously, you know, the past couple years, I think they had the first, second, and fourth, and fifth overall pick or something crazy like that. And um, you know, I was actually talking to Justin's father, and he was like, listen, you guys were good when you were at Michigan, but these kids now, he's like, these kids now are unbelievable. He's like the things these kids are doing, the speed that they're playing at. He's like, it's almost like they look bored when they're not playing a team that's that's up to their par. And and and it's crazy to see these kids come in and leave after a year, but it's crazy to see them make an impact immediately because sometimes these kids will leave and they'll play in the EHL for a little while. These kids are going straight to the NHL and they're all their contenders, you know, they're they're Vesna contenders, these goalies. Like it's it's so cool to see, like you said. And I mean, I I'm just excited that I was a part of that that process.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

You know, perhaps Mike, I want to throw it to you real quick, but you know, but you bring up a point here. There was a it's not a cliff, it was like an elevation in the game. Um, you kind of saw it around the time McDavid come in the came in the league that these these rookies were unbelievable. And you know, I Mike, tell me if I'm wrong. Uh, but I do want to give a shout out to this because there's a clear correlation with the US development model and that age group, right? Where the development model started in 10 and you are seeing all of these, I'm sorry, not 10, right? It was even earlier than that, and you're seeing these kids graduate now at a totally different level than than players that were trained in the previous model, which was kind of just get out there and escape, right? But but you're you're seeing this like uh like because boo, I've seen it too. I've seen it too of these young kids are just like, like, where did you learn to do that? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 14:21

I mean, I'll get I'll get kids out there, and and they're doing like the Michigan. One of those kids is like, how do you do it? I'm like, honestly, I don't really know, but I think this could be true.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

No, I went I went to the University of Michigan. I don't know. Exactly. There's a different we have cool helmets. The helmet was cool enough for me.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

Yeah, I'm like, we're actually out of time, so we gotta get off.

SPEAKER_03 14:40

Sorry. Can't show you that that's so funny. I love hearing these inside stories. This is great. So, Mike, what do you think? Do you think there's a correlation between the change in the model for the USA hockey program and what we're seeing?

SPEAKER_02 14:53

I I mean, I think you know, it's funny. I I was I was just thinking about um Boo, I was thinking about you coming through and and how all the USA hockey programming in New York is right in your backyard and you didn't even get to go because you kept going to the national program. Like it's like you didn't even get the you didn't get the benefit of going down the street and and and you know getting the opportunity to get in front of all the New York State guys. Um, but you know, on your on your on your path. But it I think it's uh you know it's awesome. I you know what you've done, obviously, as a player, but I think you're right that the the level of play, you know, and you can't, you know, ADM the ADM model certainly isn't the only model. Um and it's funny because the past that both Boo and and you look at where he played for with Matt Herr, you know, Matt was one of the one of the architects of that model. You know, he when he came over from prep school and took the job with uh USA hockey and now he's with the NHL. I mean, it's it's a funny path, right? He, you know, he's really into the that that that sector of okay, understanding the players that come to a prep environment and that want to play pro and want to play at the highest levels, and then understanding, I'm sure your practices modeled a lot of that anyway, uh, at school, where you know you didn't do a lot of, you know, you obviously you do flow drills and do all those kind of things because you just have the ice, right? You have your you have your two hours every day of ice time, which is another benefit of going away to school, um, where it's it's real, it's it's basically more of a developmental setting than a game heavy setting. Uh, but then on the other side of that, it's small area games, battle drills, you know, beating each other up, you know, being being in situations where you have to make decisions quicker. And I think what you're doing now professionally models that, right? It, you know, you're even even your training facilities make you uh teach in a different way. And I I personally think the right way. Um, but I but I think there is a direct correlation between the way the players have have developed based off of not only the the the the the players that are there and what they're doing on an individual basis, but just the educational model. I mean the way USA hockey is streamlined and having our top coaches, Matt Hurz, the you know, the national development team program, all Kenny Rausch's of the world, like all these people, like the reason uh you know you're able to get there is because the top coaches model that same behavior. And I think you know, you're you're just a you know, you could see that you're a byproduct of that of that shift in that 2007, 2008, and and the fight against you know, small area games and cross-ice hockey and and might not playing, you know, in you know, going from New York to Dallas to play a hockey game, more like, okay, in my home, in my backyard, play, play, play, play, play, and and and and you know, steel sharpened steel. And I think we've seen that uh in this model. And I think it and and to your to your credit, you know, now you're working with these players, like you're saying, they're all really, really good. So then what's the next evolution? And I, you know, I want to ask you about this real quick, and I know Lee probably hit on it. So the next evolution is then not just individual skill development because everybody's good. I mean, when you get to a certain area, all those kids are really good. So, what do you think? Seeing the players that you work with now every day, what is the next level? What's the it it it it the mental piece, the physical piece, the the the longevity piece? Like, what is the next step that we need to take you know when we're training these kids because they're all they all can do the Michigan, right? It's a great question. So, what's what's the next step?

SPEAKER_01 18:13

Yeah, no, I mean, I appreciate everything you just said. Um, you know, we we strive hard to get these kids to the next level. So we appreciate that. Um, I mean, I I think we can touch on all three parts of that. I'd say the mental part of it is I would bring up hockey IQ under that. And you know, it's funny because we we actually take some selects teams to tournaments. Um, we're actually going to Florida in May where we take a we'll take a 2010 and a 2011 team. And some of these kids don't really understand hockey the way I don't know how to say this. Their skills are through the roof, but their hockey IQ couldn't be any opposite end of the spectrum. And I'll give you an example. There's like there's a kid we had, and this kid is unbelievably skilled. He skates with some NHL guys. Like, this kid can do anything you tell him to do. And it's fun to watch and it's great, but then you put him in a game, and he is he was lost in the zone and he was getting scored on. And I pulled him aside and I was just like, hey, like, do you know where you're supposed to be in your own zone? And he was like, I have no idea. And I was just that kind of like that blew me away. And I was like, you arguably have more skill than me, and you don't even know where you're supposed to be in order to utilize that skill. And and it's not the kid's fault. I mean, he was never really taught it. So I think one of the problems we're starting to see is I don't want to say overtraining skills, but that's great if you can do the Michigan, and that's great if you can flip the puck up and do this and that. But if you don't know where to be and when to be, these skills are are then useless. And I think I think I say it a lot, I mean it's a cliche, but it's time and space. Like we'll do drills with kids and they'll make a great first pass, and then they'll just rush to where they're supposed to be, and they're looking backwards to catch passes, and they're they're trying to catch passes in their feet. And I'm like, guys, like time and space, make the pass, take a second, see what's going on. You don't want to skate into the defenseman. Give yourself that little extra step. So now you're catching the puck, heading up the ice. And one of my favorite examples to use is these kids wear McKinnon jerseys, McDavid jerseys. And I'm like, guys, when you see them get the puck in their zone, are they looking back to catch a pass? Or are they are they hooking nice, deep, and low and getting the puck and seeing the ice as they receive the puck? They're like, oh, they can always see up the ice. And I said, that's exactly how we want to play the game. It's exactly how we want to do everything in our drills. You want to be looking up, seeing the play in front of you as you receive that puck. And I think things like that, um, like the hockey IQ aspect. Um, and then in terms of the physical part, I'm actually, I'm in my gym office right now and I'm looking at our gym. And that's that's the that's the biggest part now is is these kids are so quick and and and so skilled. But I I think everybody's getting stronger as well. And for me, like Christy mentioned, I I worked out with her son who supposedly beat me in squats. I don't remember that.

SPEAKER_04 21:01

And there's a soundbite. Cut it out. We'll get back to that one.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

Um, but no, uh we were working out at 13, 14 years old, and that was we were kind of like young, like that was really young to be working out. Um, and there was only a couple of us. Now we've got kids, you know, we've got nine, 10-year-olds in here doing body weight stuff. Um, and a lot of its foundational strength, learning how to control your body, learning how to move. We're not really putting any, you know, dumbbells in their hands or bars on their backs because they don't need that. It's a lot of functional mobility. Um, and and the kids that we've had even for a couple of years are they're thriving. Um, we had a kid commit to Michigan last year, which is super exciting for us. Um, we've got NHL guys asking us to come and work out with us now because they're seeing what we're doing with the kids and and you know, not to get too off track, but but yeah, I would say the hockey IQ part of it, the time and spacing, and then the physical aspect is you you can't hide from the gym. Like these kids gotta be in the gym, they gotta be getting stronger.

SPEAKER_03 21:53

And Boo, I also think it also helps with injury prevention too, if they're developing their core and their strength, um, you know, before they, you know, get into more intense hockey. I think if you have that physical development, you it's an advantage to you, and it can also prevent injury as well.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

That's that's it's my favorite mobility because I'm a big surfer now, so functional mobility is is my thing. But yeah, it's it's it's it's uh it's something that I still kind of struggle with to get the kids to engage with because it's not the most exciting.

SPEAKER_04 22:27

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

But I think what kind of wraps them is I'll say, hey, when I was in boarding school, I separated my shoulder because I wasn't doing a lot of shoulder mobility and I missed six weeks. And they all kind of perk up and they're like, Oh, is that when you were playing against Salisbury and that guy crushed you? And I'm like, that's exactly it. Glad you remember it. But that's that's exactly what happened. And if you know I was doing a lot more injury prevention stuff, then you know that six weeks turns into two weeks, possibly. So so yeah, no, absolutely you're right, Christy.

SPEAKER_03 22:52

Yeah. Well, and it's good to put it to them that way because they get it when you use examples like balls.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

I can I might get it. Yeah, I can confirm that the older you get, the more the mobility stuff really seems to make sense. Uh as I've as I've been finding out. Boo, I'm taking a lot of notes. First off, I was worried there for a second when Mike said, What's the evolution of the Michigan? I I'm glad you didn't say the the Backhand reverse Michigan, which we're starting to see. That that is not the evolution. Um look, just kind of just kind of circling this whole conversation. It's amazing the evolutions in the game, even than I've seen, where you know, I was just talking the other day with a friend about there were no training aids when I was growing up. Right? That was that was you know years later, right? And then um another big one I remember, and it's funny because I'm saying this this kind of jokingly, uh, in terms of myself, but when when I finished high school, that's when the clutch and grab era ended. And I I was explaining to a younger kid that man, uh first off, our jerseys were way bigger back then. And you you could grab a guy's jersey from blue line to blue line, they probably wouldn't call it if you did it the right way. Um, and I think that the the the the rule changes in the NHL, which kind of trickled down. I think a big one was um moving the checking age from Pee-Wee to Banham, which really allowed the focus of the game to go back to the speed of the game and then opening up, and and and and Mike, to your point, opening up this idea of let your kids be creative on the ice. That the game really changed over a few years. And again, like when I look at the McDavids and the Yewes and the other people out there, these are these are students of the game that grew up in that era, right? Um, and you could see that transition happening, and it's amazing. Um, the other thing I wrote here um is that you know, you're talking about evolutions of the game. I want to make a note to the parents here too, listening because because um I even had to check myself on this a few times, you know. What's funny is when you get done playing or or what the area you played in, sometimes that stuff can stay with you. And I was I was talking to a parent the other day, and he was talking about the offensive zone, and yeah, the center does this and the wing does this. And I said, it's that's not how it we don't do it that way anymore. It's you know, kind of F1, F2, and it's a it's a totally different system. So the point I'm making is this to parents, because I want I'm trying to make this a positive. Be a student of the game. If you still love the game, be a student of the game. There are more resources than ever for you to even find out what NHL teams are doing now in terms of fore checks, back checks, and everything in between systems. Uh, be careful. You know, if you grew up in the 80s and the 90s like me, you don't want to be giving your kid 80s and 90s tactical tips because they are not going to work in today's game. You'll get crushed.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

But I think I think I think you've right there, it's a perfect example with Michigan right now. Like you got a guy like Nerado in there who is literally changing the game as we speak. Like every day he steps on the ice with the players he has. Now, again, granted, look at the players he has. Like, it's a lot easier. You know, I think what and I think the reason that the the the top lines of the world are in business right now is because you have those dinosaur coaches that win games, they win at the youth hockey level because they're very structured. They don't allow the players to have creativity. They make, they put players in situations where you've got, you know, back in like the 80s, right? You got to stay in your lane, don't cross over, don't be low. Don't defend. I mean, imagine like you watch these players right now. I mean, you look at Michigan, it's a great example, right? I mean, how many goals were scored by Michigan defensemen below the hash marks? Right. I mean, unbelievable. Like, and then you would say, well, that kid's not a defenseman. Well, yeah, he really isn't a defenseman. He he plays deep because that's where he that's where he lines up on the face-off. But you will see, I mean, I think what I love seeing youth hockey coaches, I mean, I'm watching youth hockey coaches now face off where, you know, the 2D are up where the wingers are and the wingers are behind them. There's a flank of five on the on the on the red line, or or every player's on the blue line, and there's only one person. Like it, there's so many different ways we could be creative and and play. But I think that's uh, you know, fortunately or unfortunately, the way you want to look at it, that's where a a place like Top Line and these great players that are coming out of the game today now teaching can add so much depth to the players um, you know, kind of repertoire of what they can do. Um, so so you know, and boom, maybe real quick, just because you you said about some of these kids about the hockey IQ. Where do you, where's your line of, okay, you play for this team. This is how the coach wants you to play. This is what we do. So how do you how do you how do you you know how do you mold the two?

SPEAKER_01 27:25

Yeah, no, that that that's a really good question. You know, it's something that we we we still kind of face every day because you know, there's I mean, even this morning, actually a parent texted me and he's like, you know, I really want my son to play center, they want him to play wing. Um, he's got a lot of speed, but they want him to only take the puck wide. They don't want him cutting across because the other winger's a lefty and he's a righty, and I'm just sitting there and I'm just like pulling my hair out of my head, and I'm just like, I mean, it's not my place to tell this coach how to coach their team because they're a very successful team. But at the same time, like like Lee said, like that it's kind of like that old school mentality of this is your guy, this is your lane, you put you protect the net when we're in this cent and you do your job when they're in this cent, and that's it. And yes, it can work, but then once these kids go to play elsewhere, that's when they start to run into problems. Because like when I was growing up in Syracuse, like Steve Savelli gave me free reign. I mean, he was he was super hard on me, but he let me be creative. And what I thought was creative was nowhere near creativity when I got to Michigan. And I remember one of my first practices, Red Baronson was like, he put me on wing and he and I kept dumping the puck in because I was playing right wing and I was on my back and I'm a lefty. And he goes, Boo, why don't you slide the puck to the middle? I'm like, Red, that's a backhand sauce pass to the middle of the ice. He goes, Yeah. And I'm like, that's what you want me to do. He goes, Well, how else is the center gonna get the puck? And I'm like, All right, I guess this is the next level of it. And like that was kind of eye-opening for me, which and you see this play happen three, four times in a shift now. But to me, when I was 18 years old in 2012, being a back-handed saucer pass to the middle was like, whoa, like that's kind of suicidal. Like, that's crazy. But but no, kind of back to you, Bill. Like, I I think it it's definitely hard because I think we're still crossing crossing that bridge of some coaches are still finding success in like molding these players, and then other coaches are finding success, letting these kids just be creative and let them do their thing. And inevitably it will all turn to letting these kids be creative. Because, like we're saying, like the Z-grisses and the McDavids of the world, like you can't confine these kids. You you can't. And even if you did, they're still gonna find ways to score, which is the crazy part. But once you let these kids roam and let them be free and creative, like you're seeing goals scored in the NHL that you only used to score on in the video game. And now now the video game's replicating the way they're scoring, which is just mind-blowing.

SPEAKER_02 29:49

You know, even that stops and start idea, right? That I mean, I watched, I watched, got to watch Jack Hughes live uh about a week uh two weeks ago, a little bit before the playoffs. And I I don't think he ever stopped once. Like there was no time where his feet stopped. Like there was no posting up. There was no, oh, I got to get down on the boards and get to the hash marks and post up. I'm like, and that that would have been like if you weren't there, if literally 10 years ago, if you weren't posted up on the boards, you probably got stacked the whole third period. You know, so and then now it's like opening up, moving up the ice, open, you know, you know, pivoting out 10 and 2, just all these different areas of open of seeing the ice in a whole different way, and then being able to come back. Like I've watched countless practices this year of of I think pretty good coaches, um, but what doing regroup drills. Like all they do is regroup, regroup, regroup. And then I've never ever seen it in a game, ever. It's you got you got to dump it in. So I think to your point, I mean, think about uh think about a Baronson, right? The fact that he gave you the freedom to try that because he wanted you to do it, I could almost guarantee that if you did it in a game and you got scored against because the guy took the puck down the house, you probably didn't get sad. Like you said, okay, next time we got to fix that. Or hey, next time, okay. So if you don't have that freedom, like it's easy to say, hey, you got to get that puck in the inside on your backhand. Oh, but it's dangerous. I don't care how dangerous it is. And then you do it, you get scored on, you get sad for a third period, you know, then it's dangerous, right? But if you have the freedom to say, if a coach has the ability to say, no, no, no, no, yeah, yeah, that that wasn't good. But yeah, you want you to improve and now see what you what you did there, I think that obviously you must have had, and all your teammates, you must have loved that freedom of like, okay, I can try this without the repercussions of you know what's gonna happen when it doesn't work.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

Yeah, no, and and he was so good about keeping you honest. Like, and and it did actually, it's funny, I was laughing because it did happen. And I came to the bench and he goes, he he's like, Well, Boo, he goes, it wasn't a good pass, but we'll get it right next time. And I was like, You're right, we are gonna get it right next time. But no, it's cool. Like, I could try things, and and as a freshman at Michigan, like there was it was still pretty daunting, you know, being around a lot of these guys. Um, but no, I mean, coaches like him, which is funny too, because I mean he was in his 70s at the time and he was already seeing the game changing, and it was he he he definitely deserves a lot of credit.

SPEAKER_00 32:03

You know, you're bringing up a thought in my head. I'm gonna try and formulate this in another question. Um, there's a lot of different types of coaches out there, right? And I'm wondering uh your thoughts on the art per se of you know, there's coaches that go, I move the chess pieces, you do exactly what I say, the way I say it when I say it, versus coaches who go, Okay, we've got a formula here, and I want you guys to be accountable to the formula, but be creative. Um, now what's crazy is this I've seen both types of coaches win, but I think it comes down to really knowing the temperament of your team, knowing the temperament of your players. I think coaches that take the more severe side of that don't last long, right? I think you get about three seasons of that before the players kick you out, you know? Yeah. Uh but can you talk about both types of coaches, what you've seen, uh maybe what worked best for you and and and and kind of keep it on this evolutionary track of you know, players coming out of college today, coming out of juniors today, they're they are not the same temperament as players 20, 30 years ago. Um, so coaches need to evolve too.

SPEAKER_01 33:07

Yeah, no, they absolutely need to. And I mean, I can give you two examples. Like, like when I was at Michigan, like it was it was freedom. We had our structures, but I mean, that was a cool part about playing at a school like that is like we're all the best players where we came from. So you you can't just all of a sudden tell, you know, first slide center, granted, we were still young, you know, out of NTDP and say, hey, like this is your job now. It's like, no, this kid's gonna be a top 10 pick. Let this kid free, let him do his thing. And and for someone like me, like that's what I thrived. And I played with speed and I was big and I could take the puck to the net. And I needed that sort of freedom. I needed to not, you know, think as much. And and then actually when I got to New York, I'm not gonna name any coaches, but one I I butted heads with, and he wanted me to just win my face off and skate as fast as I could, straight line up and down the ice, dump the puck and get off. And then it was almost to a point where I was thinking more in a simplified game because I wasn't used to being so simple. And I mean, I wasn't reinventing the wheel by any means, but it was very, very difficult for me to find success with that coach because it was like an example would be penalty kill. All right, win the draw, get off the ice. Yeah, but where I was, you know, in with another coach I had in New York, he was like, Boo, win that draw. And if you win it clean, go. If you can beat that D up dice, go create havoc, like chaos, be a pest. And like I love that. Like, that's what someone like me needed. Whereas with this other coach, I'd get off and then I'd be sitting there, and like, and then the frustration builds because you're right, there's not the same temperament. And and and I think kind of on that point, too, is a lot of kids kind of get knocked as oh, they're soft and you know they can't handle it. And I don't think that's necessarily the case with all kids. I just think that the way the game's changing, it's their their expectations are a lot higher. Whereas, like when I was growing up, it would be like you're on the fourth line, so you're just not gonna play a lot. That's just how it is. That's how the fourth line works. But now, if you have four lines, like that fourth line kind of rolls, like you still have to be really skilled and to play on that fourth line. You still have to be able to do things that top six forwards can do. You just don't get obviously as much time to do them. So I I think that's kind of where there's like a disconnect between the kids being quote unquote soft and mentally, you know, not tough, and their expectations are just higher. And these kids are competitive and they want to win.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

You know, you know what's funny.

SPEAKER_03 35:25

I hope a lot of coaches are listening to you right now. So important.

SPEAKER_02 35:29

No, and I think I think and and your and your story almost I would almost say it goes along the lines of like a kid like that's playing right now, like Chris Kreider, right? Same same same pattern. Well, I he th you guys know there's a lot of kids. There's a lot of kids around. I'm teaching. I think but uh the young man, the young man, uh seasoned veteran, Chris Kreider. But I think there's I mean, there's that that that type of like it's it all, and again, that's a and that's a great, you know, you said it earlier about you know, you're getting text messages and calls from current players you work with, and they have to work with coaches, but that is there is grit there, right? There is the learning curve, there is the the ability to say, listen, you know, when we all say all these kids aren't made like they used to be, but well, we have to be we have to be different too. But I think we have to understand the kids are so better educated. I mean, think back when you were 13 years old, there was no, you didn't get to see what YouTube videos of people doing what they're doing. You couldn't have mentioned, like if somebody was coaching you, you couldn't say, Hey, if you go on YouTube, go watch what I did. I did a uh a program up uh by your uh by you guys the other day with Alexei Kovalov. And obviously the kids don't know who Alexei Kovalov is, right? But every dad knows who he is that's there. And I'm like, on your way home, look at the best of Alexei Kovalov's stickers, and he was doing things that change the game, right? But but now these kids get to mimic that, they get to tr see it and try it. It's not, it's not uh, you know, legend. It's it's like, you know, you know, it's it's a it's you're seeing it. Like, oh my God, like last night I saw Luke Hughes do this. Oh, I'm gonna try that today. Like today, I'm gonna do it. So there are good and bad, but I think you know, players like yourself who've who've played the game and now coaching these young players, and you know, let's let's face it, coaching the parents too, um you know, need to have that ability to say, hey, listen, it might not work for this coach this year, but this skill set that you have next year start looking for a coach that appreciates that skill set. Or you know, maybe you do need to be on the fourth line uh, you know, and and earn yourself into a different position, or don't choose that team because it's a better team, but you don't get to play the way you're built to play. Like it's just it, there's so many different aspects of what you can do now as a as a you know, ultimately an advisor, right? Of of these players because they're trusting you to help them with their skill development, but they're also hopefully trusting you to say, hey, listen, this type this is not a top 40 team, but you probably don't want to go there because you're not gonna allow, you're not gonna become the player that we think that you are. And and you know, so do I have to be on the best team or do I have to be on the best team for me?

SPEAKER_01 38:06

Yeah, no, it's I actually I had a kid in here the other day and he was sitting there and he was like, I don't know if I should play, you know, bottom six on a triple A team or if I should be the man on a double A team. And he's like, I don't know what to do. And I said, Well, is there room for you to grow on the triple A team? And he goes, Well, what do you mean? And I said, Are you gonna be on the power play? Are you gonna penalty kill? Or are you just gonna be put out there when other guys are essentially tired? And he goes, I have no idea. And I was like, Well, that's your answer right there. You don't have an idea. What did the double A coach tell you? He's like, I'm gonna be on the power play, I'm gonna be on the penalty kill, I'm gonna be a top six guy, I'm gonna be playing when there's two, three minutes left and we're down a goal. I'm like, and I literally I didn't say anything, and he just kind of looked and I looked at him and he's like, he's like, I think I know where I'm gonna play. And I was like, exactly. And and and and I like that you brought that up because a lot of these parents get get get sidetracked with that extra letter in in the league. And I I'll tell you what, I've got some high-end double A kids that come in here who can play on these triple A teams. And I mean, I'm a great example. I played double A till I was, I want to say, 12, 11, 11 years old. I played over in Camillas. And then I went to the Syracuse Stars where Steve Sabelli, you know, thank God I had him because you know he was a second father to me. But but yeah, no, I I mean it there's no fast track to it. There's there's late bloomers. Um, some kids are in the gym at 11, some kids are in the gym at 16. And and I try to tell all these parents too, like, we we hear the word development get thrown around a lot, right? It's I want my kid to develop, I want development, I want this, I want that. And then I ask some of these parents and I say, what does development mean to you? And they're like, uh, well, you know, high reps and playing with the best players. And I said, just because you're playing with the best players doesn't mean your kid's getting the benefit of that. Yes, of course you want to be out there with some great players, but a lot of the times we'll do small group work and sometimes parents will complain and they'll say, Well, you know, my son's a 2010 and there's a 20, you know, 11 out there. I don't want my kids skating with them. And I said, that's the problem right there. And they said, What do you mean? And I said, the only thing you're developing is a mindset for your kid that it matters who else is out on the ice with them. And I tell them, I say, listen, when I was in, you know, playing in Michigan and I'd come home to skate, you know, and say Tuck's little brother was on the ice, I didn't go home and call my agent and complain that there was, you know, a 20, whatever he is, you know, oh eight on the ice. Like, no, I went twice as hard on that kid. You know, I didn't put him through the boards, but when we'd play, you know, do battle drills and things, like I'd let him know. I'd be like, this is what it takes to get to this level. And like, as you get older, like your training hours, usually you're paying for them, right? So I'm gonna make the most of my time. Whereas some of these parents can come here every day and bring their kid and bring their kid and bring their kid, and they start to kind of lose the momentum and kind of lose the idea of what development really is. It's it's an it can be an hour of really hard work instead of seven hours, one hour a day of just, you know, this is what I want you to work on with my kid.

SPEAKER_02 41:06

And I right and like I think that's I won't mention I won't mention the young man that I had this conversation with the other day. I won't mention his name, but because I'll get in trouble at home. But listen, so so when you go to a power skater or a specialty clinic or somewhere where when you walk out there and you're 6'2 and everyone else is 5'1 and they're 13 years old and you're 16 or they're eight, it doesn't matter. It only matters what you do. You're on the ice, you have your 15 feet of space, make the best out of that space. And more than likely, if you're working harder than that eight-year-old and nine-year-old, I mean, I I've seen you guys work, right? Not that you're not gonna pay attention to that kid, be like, well, this kid actually is performing at a pace that I need this kid to perform at. So if I was a parent of a younger kid, I'd be like, I want him going with the older kids. And if I'm an older kid parent, I'm like, go out and show like, like, if you can't dominate at that level, who cares if you're out there with the same age group? It doesn't matter. It only matters what you intrinsically can do. But I think a lot of that is where we're at right now, right, Boo, is that that if I'm if I'm on the triple A team, I walk in like with this swagger, like, hey, I'm on the triple A team. Yeah, but the five kids that I work with on the double A team are better than you. They are. You they just happen to say, well, I don't want to sit the bench. Like it's great to be able to lift your hands after a goal is scored and have a big congratulatory hug at the end of a game. But if you weren't a part of that and you didn't influence that game in any way, then then truly are you developing? No, you're paying and and you're and you're getting the stat, you know, you're getting the Facebook posts, I guess, but you're not you're not in a position where you can clearly say, Well, I'm gonna surpass these kids because I'm in a I'm in a track right now where I'm working at trying to beat them, not be them. And I think that that we're in we're in that situation, and and you're a perfect example in your company, is because you can take the top high-end kids and work with them and make them better, but you also can now say, Well, I'm doing the exact same thing with the top-end kids that I'm doing with you. It's just we're gonna do it at a different pace, a little different level, but ultimately we want you to get to the same place. And and I think that's so healthy for these kids because I think they get to see, like, you know, I'm sure it's really inspiring now that your guys are getting bigger and and you know, attracting more, you know, high-end talent and pros, that a kid gets to walk and say, Oh, that's cool, that guy's here. Like that, that girl's here. Like you got uh like Russo in there. Like, like if I'm seeing this girl do what she's doing, I'm like, oh my God, like she's really good. Like, and how do I get to be that level, boy, girl, whatever, you know, or even how can I be that tough? And I think that's where you know having these kind of you know uh top line type of academies and programs really comes into play for that individual kid and player that wants to, you know, it's maybe it's cliche, but wants to elevate their game outside of what they normally do in a team atmosphere.

SPEAKER_03 43:58

Right now, absolutely take the time, Buddha, just explain what you do now because we really haven't had a chance to. So this is your chance now. Tell us what your program is and how we can learn more about it.

SPEAKER_01 44:11

Yeah, yeah. So so we're called Top Line Hockey. Um, we we actually started uh years ago when we were all playing um in the AHL in 2016-17. We did some camps in um in Bergen County in Jersey, and they went really well and we really enjoyed it. It was myself, um, Justin Selman, who played in Michigan with me, Connor Lean, who played at Maine, and RJ Burns, who played at West Point and Geneseo. And we kind of were running some stuff and it was going well, but obviously we're all still playing, so it was kind of tough to keep that going consistently. And then they actually have finished playing a little bit before me in around 2018, 2019, and then COVID had hit. And they purchased synthetic ice, uh, the Gleis, and they were in Fairlaw, New Jersey, and there was no ice availability. And so they were the only option for a lot of these kids. So, right away, like they were getting an influx of you know, older kids, younger kids, and everything in between, adult hockey players, like you name it. Like it was it was crazy how busy they were. And I was finishing up my career at the time, and then kind of fast forward, they're like, We need more space. We need we need just more. And um we eventually moved up to where actually Bill, where they just did the um clinic with Kova Lab up in Newburgh. Um Mike Leahy has been awesome up there. Um he he allowed us to build a gym up there, which opened about a year ago, um, around this time last year. And that's when I came back to New York. Um and then now last summer was our first summer with that gym, and it was awesome. It went really well. Um, and then fortunately, we've been able to expand into New York City. Um, and I'm actually sitting in our gym in Queens now at City Ice Pavilion with the help of a lot of people. Um, you know, Christy Tortarella's been huge, um, the building owner, um, Eric Xteen's been awesome for us. Um, and we've been fortunate enough to put some glyce up here as well. So now we've got our gym here, we've got our gleis here, we've got our gym in Newburgh. Um, and then we do skates all over the tri-state area, American Dream Mall, Sportorama, um, pretty much anywhere. We'll go anywhere. Um, and basically the gist of it is we we we just want to give these kids, you know, everything we wish we, you know, we could have had when we were that age. So, you know, we'll get them in the gym, we'll get them on the gleis. Um, we do a lot of teamwork during the winter. We'll do a lot of um, like we had like the New York Saints, we have um now we'll do the New York Aviators, the new AAA charter here. Um we work with a lot of um teams during the year. But I'd say our sweet spot is is right now, it's like the small group, individual training, the clinics, the camps. Um we we basically we touch on you know anyone from single A all the way up to high level triple A. And as we mentioned, we're starting to get some more interest. We actually um were running Kent, uh the Kent School Captain's Practices um last fall, which was super fun for me because I hadn't been back to school in a while. Um, and now a lot of boarding schools are starting to reach out, um, and now we're starting to get into some pro teams. Um, so yeah, it's it's really exciting for us. You know, it's funny because Justin, Connor, and RJ started with just a couple little kids in Fairlawn, New Jersey, and now we're expanding and it's it's becoming bigger than all of us. And and like Bill mentioned before, we have people like Rebecca Russo helping, who's been awesome. She's helping launch our women's side of the program. Um, we have uh Bo Starr, who comes a lot. We have a couple newcomers, Jake Bolton. Um, and and yeah, it's it's it's honestly it's at the end of the day, it's so fun because you know it's funny. Justin and I will be stressed, we'll be talking to parents, scheduling, fixing our app, making sure our schedule is set. And then we kind of sit there and we giggle with each other because we're like, okay, well, all we have to really do at the end of the day is just go have fun and teach these kids hockey the way that we were taught it. And it's honestly, it's I I feel like I'm the luckiest person in the world, to be honest with you, that I get to come here every day and work with kids who are so excited and who want to get better and the competitiveness and and the passion these kids is it's unrivaled. Like I've never seen anything like it. Like I listen, I liked working out as a kid because I was strong and I could get it, but there's kids who are lining up at the door and they want to do more and they want to do more. And and and after every session, this is how we know we're doing a good job because the kids will look at us and they'll be like, that's it, we're done. And I'm like, We we've been out here for like an hour and 20 minutes. We're 20 minutes ago. They're like, Oh, all right, can we do this next week? I'm like, absolutely, buddy, I'll see you next week.

SPEAKER_03 48:26

And and for helping to ignite that passion in them, and yeah, you know, and you're tapping into their creativity. I also want to talk about the importance, and this is near and dear to my heart because my my daughter, she's a a college senior and a member of the college um nationwide diversity inclusion committee. Um, so she's doing what she can as a college senior to help grow the game and become more inclusive. And that's important to you too. Tell us what you are doing and how we can all can help.

SPEAKER_01 48:58

Yeah, yeah. So I mean, growing up playing hockey, um, being black and Hispanic is basically the opposite of everybody else that that that you find in this sport. Um, so yeah, you know, growing up as, you know, basically the only black kid on my team, it was I didn't think too much of it until I probably started to run into some trouble around, unfortunately, around 10, 11 years old, and I would start getting called some slurs and some names. And I I think how naive I was as a kid was almost a blessing in a way because I'd literally come off the ice and my dad was like, listen, like people are gonna say things and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, Dad, what are you talking about? And he was like, Well, that kid, you know, said something to you, and I was like, Yeah, but like it's fine, it's whatever. And he's like, I love your attitude about it, but like as you get older, you'll understand the magnitude and and in these things and and the way the world works. And and you know, I I think I I owe you know a lot of credit to my dad. He was, you know, he was my you know protector. And and there was a lot of times where, you know, after a game, unfortunately, things would happen, things would be said, and my dad was, you know, the only person sticking up for me. And and I would be like, Dad, you're embarrassing, you're yelling, and this and that. And he's like, one day, like you'll understand like how important it is to fight for this because we belong here too. Like, just because we look different doesn't mean that you don't deserve to be on the ice with these kids and doesn't mean they can treat you any differently. And you know, now thinking about that, I mean, my dad was it was incredible, and you know, I I can never you know thank him enough for the way he he raised me and helped me through that. And obviously the Hispanic side of it. Um, fortunately, I I was lucky enough to to meet um Scott Vargas, who who who runs Preha. And and Lee actually reached out um a little while ago and we had an awesome talk. Um, it was only supposed to be, I think, for like 30 minutes and we chatted for like a while. It was yeah, no, it was it was great, and and and we really got to know each other and and and preha has been awesome. And actually, we have a kid um in here named Michael Walsh, who's an absolute stud, whose mom's from Agodia. And um, I get so excited seeing him because he's I I really think he's gonna be the face of this as as it starts to really grow and once we can kind of get into world juniors and and and the younger high levels of hockey. And um, but yeah, we're we're right now, we're planning. Um they just finished up in Chicago. I'm sure Lee will lee will touch on that. Um, and we're trying to plan to have them here in New York City and our gym at our rink, and we're gonna have that lead up into the Puerto Rican parade. Um, so yeah, just kind of touching on all of that. I mean, it's it's super, it's super important. Um, this game is for everyone, and you're seeing a lot, um, a lot of people who look who look, you know, not the same, who are playing hockey at such a high level. And I think the resources, you know, like 43-year-old people like Sean Greavy are really are really lending a hand in in terms of that aspect. And I I think it's awesome. I think it's it's it's only growing um larger. And I actually saw a video of roller hockey being played somewhere in like, I don't even, I think it was like Benegal or something crazy. It was like eight guys with trash cans, but it's that's how it starts. Um so so yeah, no, I I I think it's it's something that's growing and and and I'm happy to help in any way that I can.

SPEAKER_02 52:04

Yeah, and I think Boo also has uh he's done a lot of work with the, you know, uh being being a Ranger alum, and he's involved in a lot of these activation programs with, you know, Yonker School District, all the way down in the Bronx. We got all of Brooklyn, you know, and you see him at all these events, and he get, and I think one of the one of the appealing pieces here, right, is that he gets to, you know, he he well, they they'll say, like, oh, you get to give back, right? But you're not. I mean, I I think there's so much joy out of getting when you do these things. And you're like, and I and I'm kind of in the same boat. Like, I look around, like, I don't see a lot of uh of the racial stuff. I don't know why. I'm uh I don't know why I'm not in those situations. I'm like, does this really happen? Like I'm because I've never been a part of it. Like I've never seen it. And you know, I I realize it happens, but it's just like it's like I work in all in in every aspect of, you know, I get to go down and and and work with you know every all these kids from you know different areas. And I did a program there in Puerto Rico, and it's just hockey is hot, and you know, it in little kids that want to play a sport and be active, it's like, okay, well, what's not to jo what's what's not to enjoy about that? And I think so, you know, what you do is is I think great when you come out to these, you know, little kindergarten classes and first and second grade classes, you get involved and they get to see that, oh my God, like that, you know, hockey truly is for everyone, but you can't be unless, you know, there's a face to that. If they're if you if you like, you know, the old the saying, if you can see it, you can be it. I mean, that's so true. And it's easy to say and throw money at things and and you know, and and and do other kinds of stuff, but you need you know, athletes like you that are in the trenches, on the on the court, on the ice, on the field, doing these things with these kids. And I think it just goes, I mean, you maybe don't see it because you come and you leave and then you go, you know, you go do what you'd have to do. And but the kids, like the the impact it makes um that reverberates around that, uh, they probably remember you. So I'm I know this for a fact. They remember you more than they remember, oh, it was the New York Rangers that were here. Like it that that was just the impetus to get you there. But it is it is a really powerful thing.

SPEAKER_00 54:04

Mike, I'll I'll say this too, and and boo. Like, this is like my observations, right? Um there's a few steps, and again, not not to keep this on on race, but these are like awakenings that I've had in my life that I think are important just to talk about, right? Um, one is that look, everyone's ignorant to everybody else because you can't be somebody else. And like, I think that's the first step of understanding this. The second step, and this was a big one for me, and this comes in being uh in a biracial marriage with biracial kids. Uh I will never understand what it is to be a person of color, and that's okay. You have to understand, you're not gonna understand. And as as well intentioned as anyone is, and there's a lot of people with extremely good intentions um that are white, you can never turn off the color of your skin, right? Ever. And I I think that uh someone who is white, we walk around, we we we don't experience that ever. All right. So, and again, I'll make no mistake, when I'm coaching with with Puerto Rico, they're hockey players. That's that is how I look at it, right? The Puerto Rico part is what's on our sweater, but I'm coaching hockey players. And by the way, everybody, if you keep thinking at home, Puerto Rico is a hockey team, they have a damn good hockey team. So we're gonna talk about that later. Really good. But uh, I remember having those conversations with my wife, and just like, you know, it it's it's always on for you that you can be a proponent, but for boo, for anyone of color, for anybody who's a different race, it's always on, and you can't shut it off. Um, and and I think that what's that's that has uh uh spawned me to do or spurred me to do, excuse me, over the years was you know, at first part I used to be, you know, what that what that person said is wrong, and I wouldn't say anything. And now I'm at a point in my life where if someone says something that I think is inappropriate, there's a right and wrong way to do it, but I I don't stay silent anymore. I'm like, no, no, like my kid's not white. Right? And and you're not gonna say that around my family. Uh and I and I try and I try I really do try and do it in a way where it's like, here's why. You know, here's why that's wrong. Not you're an a-hole and you shouldn't say that, and you're you know, like look, you're never gonna fix a racist, all right? But there's a lot of ignorant people out there. Um, and I think you can assist in educating of why that's wrong. Speaking of, this isn't limited to race. Anytime I hear somebody say, Well, what are you, girl? I even now I'm like, what does that mean? What do you what do you mean? My daughter's right here. What are you what are you saying? That women are weak? Look, I'm a lastly, I'll say I'm a huge Philadelphia Eagles fan. But if somebody calls the Dallas Cowboys the Cowgirls, which I hear a lot, I go, Don't don't do that. Don't do that. You're denoting that women are weak. And you know what? Nine times out of ten, I'll get, well, I never thought about it that way. And and and here's the thing, I don't, I don't, I don't jab them after that. I get good. Now you know. I I used to say things like that too, to be fair to everybody listening. I used to say these things until someone brought it to my attention that's not appropriate. So it's not so much see something, do something with this, but you know, we're only gonna move forward if if you know people speak up. And uh boo, the last thing I say is this like I'll never be you, but I will stand next to you. I I am an ally to you, I will support you. You know, that that's about I think as far as I can take it. Can't be you. But I those are just some observations I've had over the years.

SPEAKER_01 57:31

No, that that's it's super important. It means a lot, honestly. It's it's I I think it did go on, you know, for too long before people did start speaking up, and I think that it it it it does need to come to a point when people do say things like that. Like they it should as uncomfortable as it is, things people do need to speak up and things do need to be said because you have that one uncomfortable moment and then people learn from it and you move on and you don't have to worry about it anymore.

SPEAKER_00 57:54

I I want to say this too. Uh if I'm not mistaken, you're the first person of Puerto Rican descent that has ever played in the league, right? Okay, so so the audience listening, and again, I'm not trying to be grandiose here. He was the first. So all of the players that I coach and Boo coaches that have Puerto Rican heritage have never seen that before him ever. Right? You have to try and for a moment put yourself in the position of somebody, if they've never seen it happen, it it's almost impossible until it happens. Right? Despite of your politics, we have a female vice president. It wasn't a reality until it happened. This has nothing to do with whether you support her or not. Or not. It wasn't a reality for women to be in that office until she stepped into the office. If if and again, I want I want to I don't want to stand this too long, but if if you're a white male, you've seen it all almost all of it. All right? So uh it's just perspective. I'm I'm really not trying to turn this into a racial discussion. But when it comes to hockey, the ability for a young kid to see someone else like them do it. When when Puerto Rico won the gold medal recently last year, I told the team after you've just set a new standard. Every kid in our platform now will grow up thinking that that's normal for Puerto Rico to win a gold medal. Men and women. We both won. Never, it was never thought of before that moment. Yeah, so you gotta think about those types of things. Anyway, sorry, I'm getting on a soapbox. I'm obviously a little passionate about this.

SPEAKER_03 59:35

As you should be. Um you know, we do have a lot of parents listening in. So we got some parents who are a little obsessed with their kids succeeding in hockey. I mean, they want their kid to follow your path. Right now, we're entering into the summer season. I've always been the belief of give the kids a break, you know, let them do other sports, let them be creative, have some fun, take a little break from hockey. If you think your kid is on that path to be an NHL player like you, is it okay to take a break from hockey and just let them be kids?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:17

Let's thank you. So I I you actually just you hit the nail on the head. I I say that all the time to parents. They they ask me this question and I say, let them be kids. Like they're kids, like they should be playing kickball, they should leave their street hockey net out in the middle of the street so a car can possibly run into it and honk until they go out and get it again. They should play lacrosse, they should play soccer, they should play other sports. Um, especially at these younger ages. I mean, listen, when you get to the 14, 15, 16-year-olds, it's a bit of a different story because sometimes they'll be at boarding school, they'll be playing juniors, they'll have schedules implemented with lifting and stuff around it. But for the younger kids, yeah, they need to be kids. I mean, listen, I I have a parent that came in here and he's like, you know, we're going to Marlboro, then we're going to Toronto, then we're going to Vegas, then we're going to Salt Lake City, then we're going to Nashville. And I'm just like, you don't, you don't need to do half of those. You, you, you should honestly, in my opinion, in spring hockey, I would do one tournament a month, maybe two, maybe, maybe two. And then during those weeks, let the kids play other sports, let them hang out with their friends. And if they say, hey, mom, hey, dad, I want to go train at top line. Can I do a glice session this week? Then sign them up. But don't don't get them in this regimented schedule where they're having to go because hockey is a taxing sport. It is so physically exhausting. It is so mentally exhausting. And and these kids are playing 60, 70, 80 games. That's an NHL schedule in the winter, you know, and in and then for them to come off and then go and play in eight consecutive spring tournaments and then to get in to to go to you know uh hockey, the Minnesota hockey camp for two weeks, then they go to the the whatever Avon hockey camp for two weeks. And nothing against these camps, they're awesome, they're great, but it's it's it's time and place. And in these kids, like you said, they need to be kids. They they need to have a life outside of hockey. And that's something my parents did a really good job of because a lot of these guys, whether you stop playing at juniors, college, pro, whatever, a lot of these guys are lost and they don't have lives outside of hockey. And it's kind of sad to see. And, you know, fortunately for me, you know, I going to boarding school and going to a place like Michigan, you know, you meet a lot of people and you're forced to have a social life outside of it. And obviously, don't get me wrong, the transition outside of hockey was tough for everybody, but you know, I I can look around and I have friends who don't even care for hockey. And I have, and I love that. I have friends I don't even talk about, you know, hockey with. And I I think that for these kids to to be well-rounded, I think is is super important. So, yes, these let them be kids.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:53

I'm so glad you shared that because parents are getting a little nutsy. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:59

Oh my God.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:00

It's yeah, it's scary.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:02

Well, let's let's not let's not get top line out of business for a second. So I think I think one of the I think one of the I think one of the one of the pieces that I try to equate this to because it is about time. Like it's not always it's not always about you know burnout. Because I because I turn I like again, I don't see the burnout. Like everybody says, oh, everybody's burned out. I go, I don't, I don't, I don't know. I see the same kids that are elite kids when they're eight. They're still playing and they're passionate and want to learn. Like I don't see that burnout. Maybe I see burn, you know, it's but I think the percentage is much smaller than we make it out to be. I think if you're passionate and you're good and you're on this track, right? I don't, I think the burnout doesn't happen. I really don't. I think maybe, maybe there's other pieces of that, the mental piece, you're physically breaking down. But I think that's where, you know, a company like yours and advisors like you and and what we need to do as youth hockey organizers and and people that run programming, it's all about, you know, if you were gonna do this, right, Boo, it's the it's finding the deliberate times to train. Like know what you're training for. Don't just go and skate, oh, you're signing up for six weeks straight and you're gonna skate every day for an hour and a half. But what's the what is the purpose? What's the deliberateness of it? What am I working on? How can I fix something or tweak something or make something stronger and then consolidate that time to make it worth the while so that you can just be a kid? Because I think for a lot of kids, just being a kid is training uh with people like you. I really do. I think this kids I see, I get to, I get to really, you know, um against my better judgment, I do a lot of work with like the brick kids and you know, the Rose Series kids, and and I'm just like, this is crazy. Like, I think it's crazy. But when you see the kids and you're with them every day and you're with them for eight hours, you know, three days a week, you're like, oh my God, like these kids are just they're just high performers. They just want this. Like, mom and dad haven't pushed this. They've never said, like, oh my god, my dad's making me come. They want to be there. But then it's our parent, the parents' job is to the rein them back, right? But it but it's your job to say, hey, listen, I'm gonna give you my kid. You've got to be deliberate in your training. I need to know exactly what it's focused on, and then I and then I could give that time back so my kid could be a kid. Yeah, I think. And I think I think I think it we solved the issues of you can't just shut down for six months anymore. You just can't do it. It's just it's just not it's just not made that way anymore. And because of the business side of it, if we want great trainers and great developers and great people that work with our kids in in November and and December and January and February, well, we got to try to find a way to keep them in business in you know, June, July, and August. It's just it's just the reality of where we're at. But but I think having good people that have realistic goals and expectations, that have deliberate training regimens and can articulate what the player needs exactly, that's gonna help bridge the two worlds. Good stuff, Mike and Mike.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:57

Yeah. And I I think kind of touching on that too is that hour that they are here, let's dial it in because we have an hour and we can make that hour go so far. Because it's not going to do you any good, like you said, to sign up for six weeks straight and just run and gun, go, go, go, go, go, and just do things. Let's just take it hour by hour and let's kill it. Let's crush it in this hour so that when you leave, you can say three things. You can say, one, I'm a very good hockey player. Two, there's a lot of things I can work on, but I know how to work on them. And three, the things I'm good at, I can still get better at them. And and if you can say that after an hour, then I I agree, Bill. I think that that's that's essentially the the nucleus of the training.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:34

You know, Bill, I want to bring this up, but this circles back to something Mike was talking about earlier. Um, when we were talking about the the uh shimmering lights of a triple A team versus a double double A team or a B team or whatever. And um, you know, I'm gonna circle this into mental health, mental fitness, but I want to talk about society's definition of success versus actual success. And I think as parents and uh and athletes and and even even coaches on some level, um, we have to start remembering that the team you play on does not define you, right? And as Mike and you said, you could play on the triple A team every year and never play, right? So if you really love this, um, you really need to define success. Little different than society's way of defining it. Whereas social media and look, I see it. And look, there's a there are a lot of proud parents out there, and you should be, and you should post about their your kid. But I know there might when I see a post, he made the triple A team. Not he made the team or he made a team. It's he made the triple A super all superstar elite selects.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:35

Uh and it yeah, nobody ever says I such signed out for house league. How come? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:41

I keep maintaining I'm gonna make the first triple B team. Um, but but the you know, we gotta define, you know, define what success is. And you know, bringing this back to the learning. I I I just was writing down while we were talking, you know, the the four or five most impactful learning experiences in hockey for me. Like what were they, right? And don't get me wrong, there is a gradual effect over time. You're gonna learn skills, you're gonna learn a lot of things by you know spending time in the game. But I I go, I remember one-on-one talks with one of my coaches. He really taught me the tactics of the game and the strategy of the game. That taught me a lot. Uh, open hockey taught me a lot, especially in the summertime when all the kids were home from college and I was in high school. To your point, Boo, I was playing against guys older than me playing collegiate hockey, and they they killed me. And I learned more in those sessions and tried more. I was more creative in those sessions. Someone was coaching me. Um, and then and then uh, you know, I was really fortunate to have some training sessions with NHL teams where in one hour with an NHL team on the ice, you're gonna learn more than you learned in in a year, right? But but these micro learning dialed-in sessions were where I learned. I I said this the other day. Someone asked me, uh, they told me, well, your kids need to work on their skating a little bit. Um, I said, Great. So uh they talked to me the other day, so you don't doing power skating? I said, no, doing public session. And they looked at me like I was crazy. And I said, Let me show you a video. And it's my son with my daughter chasing him, moving in and out of people, up and down, not thinking at all about what edge they're using, but they're learning to skate creatively and fun. There will be a time where it hones in more. You'll fine-tune eventually, yeah. Right, but they're nine and six. You go to public session and you have fun. Um, and this is all bringing me it down, right? Like to to the definition of success in when it comes to mental fitness. Because a lot of the training you that we do is talked about I'm sorry, a lot of training we talk about is the physical side of hockey, the skill side of hockey. If you're not working on the mental side of the person right now, I I don't I just don't think it's complete training. Boo, I know you're a massive advocate for this. Why don't we talk about it for a few minutes about how important the mental side of it is?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:46

Yeah, I mean, I I I would say it's arguably the most important part. Um, I mean, I growing up, I think, you know, I keep talking about Steve Sabelli, but I mean he I think he was the biggest key to my my my hockey career. And he he was really hard on me. You know, even in games where it was a Sunday afternoon in in in Syracuse and we were blowing out a team. If I didn't back check, if I didn't win that last draw, if I kind of gave up on a play, like he would get on me. And for the longest time, I didn't understand. I I was just like Steve, like we're up seven to one, we're this and that. And he's like, I don't care, boo. It doesn't matter. Like you have to be you want to be great, you have to be great every single day. You can't just be great yesterday and then be okay tomorrow because the day after that, you're just okay. And and there's so many little lessons, like you said, that this this man has taught me through all this stuff, and it's it's just coming to light now. And I actually spoke to them on the phone a little while ago and I broke down. I was like, thank you so much, Steve. Like, there's so much you taught me. But I I think the mental aspect of it is because like like we say, everyone can skate now, everyone can shoot, everyone can hit, everyone can score. So what what intangibles are you gonna bring to the table? And and I I think one thing kind of what Christy was was mentioning before with the kids is if you don't love this sport, you're never gonna make it because this sport is so hard. And and you know, when I was playing for New York, all people see is you know someone driving out in their you know, G-Wagon and in their cool suit, and they you know got player of the game and they go back to their penthouse, but that's all people see, and they see you on the ice and that's it. They don't see you growing up from age six to twenty-six, they don't see the setbacks, the injuries. Um and and for me, you know, I had concussions and you know, talk about like the mental aspect of that. Like that's I in my opinion, it's the worst injury to have because you can't see it. And you know, you can break your leg and say, Oh, okay, you know, it's broken here, here, and here, six weeks and this, six weeks of rehab, and you're back, you know, next season. Well, you know, with these concussions, it's like, I don't know, one day I feel great, one day I feel terrible. You know, this guy got one and he was back on the ice in two weeks. This guy got one and he hasn't played in a year. So it's the that mental aspect of it is it's it, I think it's the most important part. Um, and I and I think that um, you know, having like a sports psychologist or some sort of therapist, I think is huge. And for someone like me, I grew up with OCD. And actually, Dal, um our uh sports psychologist at Michigan, you know, he helped me overcome that. And I didn't realize how much of this OCD was taking over my, not just hockey career, my life. And um I just don't think it's spoken about enough. I don't think that I think the resources are out there, but I just don't think people understand the weight that they're carrying on their shoulders sometimes. Like for me, I would speak to a sports psychologist for the first time and I felt the weight of the world just come off of my shoulders, and I felt like I could let my hair down and I could actually exhale. And I see kids, you know, even coming in here and they're freaking out. And oh, my coach said this, and then my dad said that. And I'm like, just you need to talk to someone. Let's talk these things out. And that's the only way you're gonna get stronger mentally because you're only one person, you know. Your your mind is in some ways going against you, right? When you're running a mile and your bot and your mind's saying, This hurts, stop, I want to stop. This sucks, you know? And it's you versus yourself. So I think the only way to get stronger is to speak to people about it and to understand what's going on in your mind and how to overcome it. Because at the end of the day, it's it's you versus yourself, right? So I think the mental aspect is is is probably 80 to 90 percent of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:24

It's a fantastic thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:26

I can even see that even in the college years. My daughter, you know, played college hockey, doing two majors and playing hockey. What got her through was her passion and her love for hockey, but it's stressful. I mean, that is a lot of honey as a kid. You're still a kid, you know, there's a lot of pressure on you. You want to, you know, finish obviously strong in in hockey and in college because you got to think about the next uh level for you in life, but that's a lot of pressure on a kid for four years. Yeah, yeah. But I'll say this too. That's why a lot of teams are now adding the sports psychologists, which is great to see.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:06

Well, and and Christy and and Boo and Mike, and here's why it's like Boo, you alluded to this, right? Your your body hurts, you know, everybody instinctively knows or has a clue of what to do. If something's broken, you go to a doctor. If you're really sore, you go to a physical therapist, right? It's so obvious, but when we when your mind is sore, we don't talk about it. Because there's a huge stimul. Oh, I can't talk to the therapist, coach is gonna bench me, right? Well, coach ain't gonna bench you if you're going to the physical therapist, right? Now, again, some of this is on the coaches too, to evolve and understand that that this is part of it. But for the life of me, and I and this is changing to be fair, how teams don't have unbelievably good psychological or mental assistance to help their athletes mentally be fit. I mean, if you want to win, like if you really comes down to this, you gotta do that. Yeah, right, right, you gotta do it. Uh and and and again, a lot of the pushback just comes from from evolution here. And you know, look, people did not talk about this for the longest time. And and I I'm quite understanding of that, especially previous generations that have been through, let's be honest, just way worse times than us. All right. Uh, but to move forward, I think a mentally strong, a physically strong athlete that loves the game is almost an unstoppable force. And and I'll I'll kind of I'll kind of give this this little bit of warning. Um, and Mike, I know you've seen this too. Christy, I'm sure you've seen it. Boo, 100%. I know you've seen it. Uh, one of the scariest things I've ever seen is a player at the top level, and you can go up to the NHL, that hates their job. And it is scary. And they are unbelievably talented and gifted, and they hate playing hockey. All right. And and I'd say this 95% of the time, uh, it's it's because they were pushed beyond their limit mentally. There was a time they loved it, right? Um but it's just a job to them. And and it's scary to see, all right. I'm not saying these are bad people, obviously, but it's scary to see. Uh someone get to that level.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:11

Yeah. No, and I and I think that if it's not if it's not brought up or taken care of as you're growing up, you know, you you can't just can't teach, you know, an old dog new tricks, right? Like they're stuck in their mindset and they're stuck in their ways. And not to say they can't change, but at that point, it's they've grown up with it and they've found success that way. So it's gonna be hard to just kind of shift the paradigm at such a point in their career where it's like, well, I got here like this, so I'm gonna stay here like this. And and I I think, yeah, it needs to be brought up. It needs kids need to speak to sports psychologists. And I mean, listen, there's no one who knows their kids better than their parents, but they need another voice, they need another perspective, they need a different angle. And and I love these parents. Like, trust me, like, I I love I love chatting with the parents, they're awesome, honestly. There's nothing like a hockey parent, truly. But if they don't understand what's really going on with their kid, then you know, let them talk to a therapist and a sports psychologist. And I learned a lot about myself. I listen, I thought I had the world figured out coming from boarding school and going to Michigan, and I was wrong, you know, surprisingly enough. But it it's I think it's I think it's really important.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:25

Well, thank you, Boo, for for talking about that with us for a few minutes. We're all very big proponents of it here, and and it's uh it's an important topic that we're gonna continue to push. And um, we've gotten through all of my questions. I'm gonna throw it again to Christy and Mike. Do you guys have anything else you want to ask before we close this out?

SPEAKER_03 1:17:40

Hmm. Boo, we love you. So proud of you. I'm just so excited that uh I finally got to to chat with you um now that you're all grown up and not 13 years old in the gym anymore. So this is great. But we saw we saw the talent in you. We knew you're gonna be something special, and you are.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:01

Thank you. I really appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:03

Mike, what do you got, buddy?

SPEAKER_02 1:18:05

No, I just I mean I know uh Boo's local to us here in the in the East Coast uh Northeast area, and I think he's done, you know, really tremendous job, him and his team and all the players that are kind of giving back and all the new players he keeps bringing in uh to expand you know what they're doing. But I think it's the you know it's the right thing to do. It's a good person to listen to. I would I would suggest going on and seeing, you know, following their social media handles and seeing what they do on it. They do it, they do a good job of flashing it up, which is good. They have a good uh social media crew there. But I think it's also social media handle, just so that I make sure it's sure I'm sure Caitlin will make sure it's included in the uh play. And I'll let Boo I'll let Boo uh lay it out. I don't want to butcher it. But I think it's um but I think it's it's really good. It's it's nice to see, and I've got the got a chance to watch these guys work, you know, one-on-one with players, and you know, it's it's there's a lot of flash in there, but it's really basic fundamental movement skills that they that are going to get them to the net or get them out of the zone or or put them in an area to make a good pass. Um and and it's just you when you watch it, you can see that the kids have a lot of joy. And the coaches, like I love watching you guys because you guys are look like you're having fun too, and you're right in there and battling with the kids. And and uh no, it's great what you're doing, and I I definitely wish you a lot of success.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:20

Awesome. No, thank you so much. We appreciate it. Um, yeah, you know, I mean it's it is fun for us, and you know, top line is you know, at 29 years old, did I think I was gonna be doing this? Absolutely not, but I'll tell you what, I wouldn't trade anything in the world for this job. This is this is truly, truly one of the most enjoyable times of my life. And I really appreciate you guys having me on here. This has been this has been awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:40

No, it's been awesome for us too, Boo. And again, if you want more information on Boo, that's TLHC.com, if I'm not mistaken, right? For top line hockey. And uh follow this man. Follow this man, learn from this man. We we look up to him literally, he's 6'3. Uh, but we also look up to him as a person as well. And and uh, Boo, thanks for spending some time with us today.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:58

Yeah, no problem. Thank you guys. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:00

All right, you've been listening to our kids play hockey. You can hear this episode and every other episode on whatever podcast platform you're listening. We really appreciate the five-star reviews and sharing these with your friends and your team snaps or your game beasts or whatever you use with your team. Uh, and again, we're gonna be with you all summer here uh with our kids play hockey. Uh, check out the website, our kidsplayhockey.com, for some deals if you're looking for some fun hockey stuff. But aside from that, for Christy Casciano Burns, Mike Vinelli, and Boone Avis, I'm Leo Lyas. We'll see you in the next edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Have a great day, everybody. We hope you enjoyed this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or our website, our kidsplayhockey.com. Also, make sure to check out our children's book, When Hockey Stops, at When Hockey Stops.com. It's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. Thanks so much for listening to this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey, and we'll see you on the next episode.