July 22, 2023

Championing Women in the Game of Ice Hockey with Michelle Billingsley

Ever wondered how one woman could change the game of ice hockey? Let me introduce you to our guest, Michelle Billingsley, a true pioneer in women's ice hockey. In our conversation, Michelle narrates her groundbreaking experience of being the first girl to join a boys-only league, an event that ignited her lifelong commitment to promoting and advancing opportunities for girls and women in this sport. From coaching at the NCAA level to co-founding Women's Hockey United, Michelle has continually broken through the ice ceiling and championed the recognition and inclusion of women in ice hockey.

This episode doesn't just stop at Michelle's inspiring story. It's a deep exploration into the progress women's ice hockey has made over the last four decades - and how Michelle has been pivotal in that journey. We debunk the myth that there's no money in women's sports, and put the spotlight on the competitive spirit and skill level in women's hockey. Through citing examples like Jocelyn Lamarau-Davidson, and several other professional women’s players, Michelle makes a compelling case for the need to invest in women's ice hockey.

As we lace up our skates and hit the ice, we take you through the critical issues surrounding girls' participation in sports, and specifically in ice hockey. Michelle shares her insights on the importance of mentorship and coaching at all levels, and the need for increased investment in the sport. We tackle the role of the NHL in promoting girls' hockey and emphasize the significance of creating a lifelong fan experience. If you're keen on the development and growth of women's sports, this episode promises to offer you an in-depth look at the challenges, triumphs, and the road ahead. Join us as we champion the cause of women in ice hockey, one puck at a time.

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00:52 - Michelle Billingsley

08:00 - Advancing Women's Hockey Opportunities

23:09 - Promoting Girls' Hockey Development and Inclusion

32:54 - Promoting Girls' Participation in Sports

44:19 - Promoting Girls' Hockey and Overcoming Obstacles

52:43 - Promoting Girls' Hockey and Breaking Stigmas

WEBVTT

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Hello hockey friends and families around the world, and welcome to another edition of our kids play hockey.

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I'm Leo Elias with Mike Binelli, and we are joined today by a hockey lifer and someone who has dedicated their life to growing the game.

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Michelle Billingsley has worked on the ice as an NCAA coach with Newman University and PA and is a credentialed referee who has officiated games at the Olympic, junior and SLEV levels.

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She has also held many positions off the ice, including the director of hockey operations and the director of hockey at the professional and youth levels.

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Today, michelle is the co-founder and vice president of Women's Hockey United, whose goal is to build an organization with a diverse group of successful professionals in the sports industry that will cater to further developing female athletes in the sport of ice hockey.

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Summing this all up, michelle is a pioneer in the game of ice hockey and we are excited to have you around today, michelle.

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Welcome to our kids play hockey.

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Thank you.

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Thank you for the introduction and thank you for having me.

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Ice hockey has been a very exciting part of my life.

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It's been an exciting journey so.

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You and I have talked a lot off the camera and I think you have a pretty powerful message.

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I think you're a pretty powerful person and a shining light for all of us, as someone who's been in the game and really challenged a lot of the norms quote-unquote that we've had in the game over the last 30 years.

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But it's a common question that we start with Michelle, but it's a necessary one.

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Tell us, how did you get started in the game?

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I first was introduced to ice hockey at a very early age.

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My brothers had started playing.

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My father started them out in the sport.

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I was born and raised in Bedford, new Hampshire, and there was a Manchester All Boys Ice Hockey League in Manchester, the regional youth hockey association still up and running.

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They had started playing hockey and of course, I was just someone that they could throw pucks at, shoot pucks at in practice and then when they wanted to practice goal-tenning they needed someone to shoot on them.

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I, by default, was there.

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They threw me into it and I fell madly in love with it, just as much as they did.

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So my parents, who had gone through the Marine Corps and were gender-blinded, thought that would be a great opportunity.

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Since I loved it, let me join the league and try out and play with my brothers and see how, see what would happen.

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At that time in 1978 there were no girls playing.

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It was really an all boys league and had been since they started.

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I was the first to join.

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I played three years first, my second year of might in two years of squirts where I achieved hat tricks, shutouts.

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I played center wing goalie, tried everything that I could at anywhere.

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The coach threw me.

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I was happy to be there because I just really wanted to belong.

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It took a couple days, a couple practices.

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Once the boys found out I was a girl.

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At first they liked me because of my skills.

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I blended in with them until they asked me my real name and I told them and they stayed away for a couple more practices.

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But once we played in games together and they saw that I was scoring and helping them in in developing, they actually sort of embraced me and allowed me to develop with them and after the three years they voted me captain for their team, which was really meaningful for me because that was the kids themselves that elected me and it was unanimously so I had an exciting development over the three years and unfortunately at that point the board had been taking a lot of heat from parents.

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We didn't care for a girl developing with their boy.

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There really was no concern for me at the point.

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I came dressed in my gear, so it's not like I had to go into the locker rooms.

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There really wasn't that concern.

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It was just being on the ice, just being there.

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For some reason it bothered them.

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It wasn't even checking, so it wasn't.

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They were concerned physically.

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I was actually outscoring them and outplaying them, so it did make sense.

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So when the board called my parents to inform them that they actually had a vote, the board unanimously voted that I would no longer be allowed to play due to my gender.

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However, my two brothers, who were equally talented and very well liked by all the boys in the league, they were asked to return, but without me, and my parents made a decision that if we couldn't all play, that we couldn't all return.

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They understood the importance of my brothers being raised with the idea that girls should be playing with boys.

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With that being said, I played for those three years and there was nowhere for me to go.

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There was nothing set.

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It was 1997, 98, where I had the privilege to meet legendary women's basketball coach, pat summit, who did have a hand in passing through title nine.

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She pulled me aside, we talked about it.

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She asked me what had happened and pretty much planted the seed of me getting back into girls and women's hockey to pioneer and to help them build opportunities, places and get them access resources and opportunities.

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So that's what I did.

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I literally got back on the ice, started training and then I got a call from Ben Smith, the Olympic coach, who invited me to train with the US women's Olympic team.

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At the time was Kami Granado, karen by, shelley Looney, sarah DeCosta just the best women in the world which was an amazing opportunity, and I found it to be very exciting.

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I trained with them and I had an opportunity to stay with them and play with the national Olympic team.

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However, I went back and thought a lot about what girls and women's needed to grow.

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It wasn't for me to go and become an Olympic champion.

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That wasn't going to help them.

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It would only help me, which would be amazing, but unfortunately, as a youth, I didn't have that dream or goal and passion that I developed and nurtured, so when I got that thrown up there, it wasn't real to me.

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At the time.

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I was a mother of three and I thought where could I spend more time helping?

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And that's where Pat encouraged me to start a women's collegiate program.

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Michelle, I do want to give a little perspective here for the listening audience, because we're spending 30 years here and I think it's important to look at.

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When you look at women's hockey, there's several key time periods.

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You mentioned 1998, so 1998 was a big year for me where I saw women's hockey for the first time and maybe many of our listeners probably don't remember.

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The men's team, which was compiled of NHL players, was horrible that year, horrendous in Nagano, japan, and so I watched women's hockey and we won the gold medal that year in Team USA and I remember for me at that time and I was young, I didn't care it was women, I was glad we won the gold medal and as I got older I didn't realize how monumental of a moment that was, not just for me as a young boy, seeing women as equals in terms of their hockey players, but for women's hockey in general.

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And again, I think it's important when we look at the perspective here that, even with all of the progress we've made and there's still plenty to be made it's important to remember back to your youth in late 70s, early 80s, where girls were told you can't play period and there was no alternative.

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You talked about hockey in Pennsylvania, in the Philadelphia area, we have one of the premier girls leagues and teams out there and that's a norm today for young girls to grow up and might squirt playing with the boys and then they make the transition over to the girls team.

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That was not an option in 1981.

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1982, there just simply was no hockey.

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So I think in terms of the progress of the sport, we've made progress.

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It's a good thing, but it's not enough, right, and we have to continue to do this.

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And I think for most women's sports, if you are fortunate enough to play collegiate sports, that is the end of the line, right.

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For lots of different reasons and I want to discuss that too, because I wrote some notes down here, some of the common kickbacks we hear in sport no one watches women's sports.

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There's no money in women's sports and I would say I don't know if that's really the point right.

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I've never heard a female athlete say I should be paid the same as an NHL player.

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It's never been the argument.

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It's just the opportunity to play at a higher level and, as you've said, the professional leagues that are out there, although a little splintered, are progressing the game and we need to move that on.

00:08:36.399 --> 00:08:46.523
So when someone says to you hey look, nobody watches women's sports, there's no money in women's sports, what is your response to that and for the people listening that want to support what should we be thinking or saying?

00:08:46.643 --> 00:08:51.236
honestly, I do hear that a lot and I welcome that dialogue.

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First thing, you know that I would say to them is that was in the past.

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We are growing.

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We don't have the access, resources and opportunities which will allow us to get more access, but there is a lot of growing.

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There is a lot of games that there's a lot of selling of tickets, a lot of revenue being generated, not just off of the girls and women's ice hockey from collegiate to professional, but we've also noticed that the NHL teams in the cities that our girls teams and women's hockey teams are in, they're generating a new 35% revenue off of their newly found female fan base, which is us.

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They're generating money.

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Let's take a look at that 35%.

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As far as generating money, we're generating it.

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We're just not getting the it for the most part, the numbers.

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Now, as far as what I'd like to say is women's hockey has been around since 1890.

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Let's start there.

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It's not a new sport I hear it's new.

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It's a novelty, and I just said no.

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And sadly and unfortunately, the demise of us growing right now is the lack of the access, resources, investors, donors and media which gives us the media coverage that we so badly needed or do need, and even in the NHL, when they first started in the 1940s, they struggled to get a fan base.

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They didn't have media coverage and then they fizzled.

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They faded because they had a business structure that did not work.

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So they picked up a new business structure and started over their media coverage.

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Once they got investors and the revenue was going towards media coverage, the more media coverage they got, like all men's sports, that's when more investors, sponsors and more revenues coming in and it would give the illusion that there is more fan base, there's more interest.

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But interestingly, the one thing that they say is we just can't play the sport as fast or strong as the men.

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Therefore, it's not as entertaining, and I say, first of all, it is more than entertaining.

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Then you give it credit and a lot of people that are showing up to girls and women's hockey aren't just relatives.

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They're actually ice hockey fans and they're seeing the finesse in the game.

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They see, although there's no checking, it is very physical and the skill level is actually equal.

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Let's talk about the olympic hockey history that recently happened in the 2018 pyong chang south korea olympics, where jocelyn lamarot davidson she was the fastest two goals scored by one player.

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She, of course, played for usa.

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She scored two goals just in two in six seconds apart.

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In the second period against the oar team.

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She actually broke a record that was held by carl goren ober, who played on a swedan team.

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He scored two goals in eight seconds span in 1960.

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So here's a woman breaking a mail held record as far as two goals scored in uh seconds, and not just by a second, but he was two goals and eight seconds.

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She was two goals and six seconds.

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So right there, speed mechanics and skill wise, we're right there.

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So it's no longer a novel team.

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I like to point out.

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We are actually real competitive athletes, just like them, and we're worth investing Right.

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What kind of a coin.

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At the all star game too, she was putting up an HL speed times, if I'm not mistaken.

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I remember that as well, exactly yeah, and it's interesting, jocelyn Lamarau she and her sister, monique they put they wrote a book on why girls should play hockey with boys and at their book release in February 2021, they did a ton of promotions, including several podcasts, and Jocelyn had mentioned any even in her master's thesis.

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Out of 15 players on the US women's Olympic hockey team, 15 of them recommended that girls should play with boys, although one player said yes, no, depending on what the goals of the individual player would be, and I found that interesting.

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Now, this doesn't mean that playing girls only won't get you to the national team.

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It just discusses how playing with boys helped those that did play with the boys.

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It just didn't do any research on covering the path to US women's national team.

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If it's possible, for playing with only girls.

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But from my experience and from what Lamarau is saying and the other 15 Olympic players, we all developed with boys.

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The most important developing years were in boys hockey leagues.

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And she goes on to point out reasons why, which I also agree Skill developing the ice time with the boys.

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They get 10 plus hours per week when that's what you really need to be a great hockey player.

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The reality is that many clubs girls don't get as many hours as favorite ice times as the boys elite teams and the level of competition the boys hockey provides more options for girls for a free melt player to find a team whose skill level is at the right level for her as she develops.

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There's also the coaching.

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The boys clubs tend to have better coaching.

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So I'll say this to Michelle for me it's always been about a quality of opportunity, right, and that I have a daughter, right.

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I don't want her to be held back at all.

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It's funny the other night I was, I took them the public session.

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My daughter is a couple of years younger than my son and she was chasing him and I saw it on her face.

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I could see that look on her face of determination that I've seen a lot of athletes and I'm again, I've always been.

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Everything's always been pretty equal for the two of them, but it's, I remember, thinking I just wanted to have the same opportunity that my son has.

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I think, in terms of professional hockey today, it is not going to pass that a women's professional league will ever rival the NHL today, but the opportunity to play professional hockey is extremely important and the opportunity for a young lady and boy to dream of playing hockey beyond high school or college is a worthy dream to have.

00:15:08.875 --> 00:15:12.014
It shouldn't just have to end after you're a senior, you're a college hockey.

00:15:12.014 --> 00:15:20.725
And again, with what we have in professional women's hockey today, as you mentioned, the rosters are very limited and when it comes to investors, I think it just comes down to the product you put on the ice.

00:15:20.725 --> 00:15:22.732
I think there is an audience for women's hockey.

00:15:22.732 --> 00:15:37.693
I think there is a way to grow the game with women's hockey, and I think that one of the issues we have to continually try and solve is this is that there is no future for women's hockey without men being involved, and the idea is that we want to turn it into hockey.

00:15:37.794 --> 00:15:38.565
Right Is this?

00:15:38.565 --> 00:15:39.126
Oh, I play hockey.

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Not I'm a girl who plays hockey, or I'm a girl on a guys team, I'm a hockey player and I play hockey.

00:15:44.652 --> 00:15:50.450
And then the opportunity for women to play after college and is what's important to me.

00:15:50.450 --> 00:16:01.721
So I think your organization is doing a lot to push that correct In terms of just creating the opportunity and making sure that some of the noise of just no one watches that it's just okay.

00:16:01.721 --> 00:16:02.404
That's not what we're here for.

00:16:02.404 --> 00:16:04.635
You know what I mean.

00:16:04.635 --> 00:16:08.932
Tell us a little about your organization today and what you're doing today, because I think that's important work as well.

00:16:10.005 --> 00:16:10.908
Oh, absolutely.

00:16:10.908 --> 00:16:28.994
I've had the privilege to meet some professional men and women from both the NHL side, the PHF, pwpha side, and they all recognize the same thing they want to help grow women's hockey at the professional level and they don't quite know how to do that.

00:16:28.994 --> 00:16:33.028
The PHF PWPHA have their people in place.

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They have solid women running those organizations and they're working really hard at growing that organization and getting the women what they need the access, resources and opportunities.

00:16:44.899 --> 00:16:47.287
They're focusing on growing and expanding.

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There's so much need for someone to support the girls' youth all the way up to collegiate.

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So I think for the women's professional hockey organization to have that main responsibility is quite the burden.

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How are they going to do that?

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Expand and grow and take care of their women so that they can keep growing?

00:17:09.404 --> 00:17:11.134
Investors will invest in them.

00:17:11.134 --> 00:17:16.854
I talked to a lot of investors at what they needed to get the confidence to invest in women's professional hockey.

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Rob Granato, cammy Granato's brother, has been growing girls' hockey in Chicago, much like I've been doing it in Philadelphia and New Jersey.

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We've grown girls' hockey from youth all the way up to collegiate.

00:17:31.693 --> 00:17:34.404
We were ready for that next level.

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We were ready to bring women's professional hockey into our cities, but the women's professional hockey team was not getting the investors they needed to expand into our cities.

00:17:44.987 --> 00:17:52.902
So we took a step back and we said how are we going to get them to give the confidence to invest in women's professional hockey?

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And so I reached up to a lot of investors and what they said was my concern is there's that unnatural drop off between college and women's professional hockey.

00:18:02.862 --> 00:18:04.851
That's a huge market.

00:18:04.851 --> 00:18:15.718
They're all dropping and so it doesn't give us the confidence that the women's professional hockey league is going to have a pool to recruit from to grow like they need to as quickly as possible.

00:18:15.718 --> 00:18:19.132
So they're just waiting for something to happen.

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The NHL is waiting for something to happen.

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Usa Hockey is waiting for something to happen Women's Collegiate programs for investing millions of dollars into their women female student athletes to develop in their women's collegiate programs over those four years.

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They want to know that their women have somewhere to go and for them to drop off.

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It's just why are they investing the money in the program?

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Everyone needs something to happen.

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So we took a step back and we said we're going to start up the women's hockey United Organization and collectively we're going to pull in former professional women and men coaches who are together will come in and we're going to coach a developing semi-professional women's hockey league.

00:19:04.537 --> 00:19:16.056
We're going to jumpstart that where players and coaches and refs will have a place to go after college, post college, to come in and play in our league.

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We're going to future.

00:19:17.903 --> 00:19:21.310
We're going to keep developing them until their professional level.

00:19:21.310 --> 00:19:40.959
That way, as the PHF and PWPHA also are ready to expand and grow, they have a pool of talent to recruit from and once that's in place, a lot of investors and sponsors said that would definitely give us the confidence to invest money.

00:19:40.959 --> 00:19:46.942
We can see that those players and coaches and officials are still growing the game.

00:19:46.942 --> 00:19:50.617
Therefore the women's professional leagues will continue to grow.

00:19:50.617 --> 00:19:57.404
They have a feeding club, much like the men's side had juniors and these semi-professional leagues.

00:19:57.928 --> 00:20:02.669
Once you had those in place, the NHL picked up a lot of more investors, sponsors.

00:20:02.669 --> 00:20:04.013
They saw that ladder.

00:20:04.013 --> 00:20:23.611
So basically we're filling that ladder, that missing piece, and not just filling a place for people to go, but we're pulling in former professional players who know how to coach and mentor those talented women to get them up to that professional level so that they have that opportunity.

00:20:23.611 --> 00:20:24.576
They have that chance.

00:20:24.576 --> 00:20:28.231
Their dream can keep alive, they can keep going, stay in the game.

00:20:28.313 --> 00:20:30.982
So it's really important, purposeful.

00:20:30.982 --> 00:20:33.971
We're really excited we get the right people in place.

00:20:33.971 --> 00:20:46.084
So right now we're just structuring our inaugural year and looking for investors, sponsors, getting the starter C funding to jumpstart us Once we get going.

00:20:46.084 --> 00:20:52.594
We've plotted our inaugural year in hotspots for girls and women's hockey where they generated the most revenue.

00:20:52.594 --> 00:21:00.843
They've had the most fans 10 those games and events in certain tournament times combined with NHL events.

00:21:00.843 --> 00:21:06.881
The NHL and USA Hockey are excited about our project.

00:21:06.881 --> 00:21:20.632
They see the importance, they see that we're actually going to have an immediate impact on girls and women's hockey and giving a lot of investors and sponsors that confidence that they need to invest in the women's program.

00:21:20.632 --> 00:21:25.409
So they are all on board to come in and support us.

00:21:25.891 --> 00:21:47.923
I think too, like with most issues in society, whether it be gender or race or anything, there's no future without us moving forward together as a society, and I think that's one of the pitfalls we fall into when anyone discusses this is it turns into us and them type situation, or an only us situation, whereas it's us versus the world.

00:21:47.923 --> 00:21:59.223
And the truth is this is that if you want any type of empowerment and you can look at American history to see this to be true in a lot of cases with Martin Luther King Jr and some of the greatest leaders we've had it must be done together.

00:21:59.223 --> 00:22:02.179
There is no pathway unless we're doing it together.

00:22:02.179 --> 00:22:04.575
Mike, did you want to chime in on this too, bud?

00:22:06.526 --> 00:22:07.205
Number one, michelle.

00:22:07.205 --> 00:22:25.422
It's unbelievable, like the commitment level you've given this and your time of your history of hockey, which is great, and certainly everything you talk about is true, right, I think all of the pitfalls and the roadblocks and the pieces we see that could make a successful or an unsuccessful league work are there.

00:22:25.422 --> 00:22:26.705
I was there, evident, right.

00:22:26.705 --> 00:22:36.839
I probably fall from the side of having worked in women's professional hockey for a number of years and having been mentored by a lot of women professional hockey players.

00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:52.550
I think and I don't know, maybe it's just the way I was brought up or the circumstances I just happen to have I find myself never talking about girls and women's hockey as opposed to hockey, and I probably fall into this in a lot of different ways, even in diversity initiatives.

00:22:52.550 --> 00:22:58.240
I think because of the pieces I've been in, I haven't really seen those roadblocks as much as a lot of other regions.

00:22:58.240 --> 00:23:04.911
So I'm always like I don't know if there's a really good girl player, she's a hockey player and she's beaten the boy she's going to make the team.

00:23:04.911 --> 00:23:19.166
Now I come from a point of view like where I would, and I've been involved with Teddy Saunders and obviously Sammy Joe and having dinner and events with people that are very involved in women's professional hockey and I think that's the way I would see women's hockey.

00:23:19.166 --> 00:23:29.441
Kim McCullough, up in Toronto, you look at like having somebody that runs the largest girls hockey program in the world and she would never discuss her hockey program as her girls program.

00:23:29.441 --> 00:23:41.039
This is the largest hockey program in Toronto and oh, it just happens to be all girls in the conversations I have with her and listening to the people in these kind of venues.

00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:48.096
And even I worked with Colt Norr for two years and he never treated the women's, which is why I think they like him.

00:23:48.096 --> 00:23:50.480
Is he never differentiated?

00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:53.990
Oh, you girls can't do this, or you should be doing this.

00:23:53.990 --> 00:23:56.794
I think the reverse engineering of this.

00:23:56.794 --> 00:23:58.435
The same struggles happen in junior hockey.

00:23:58.435 --> 00:24:00.659
Boys play hockey through college and have nowhere to play.

00:24:00.659 --> 00:24:02.747
Right, and they say I have nowhere to play.

00:24:02.747 --> 00:24:03.449
I love hockey.

00:24:03.449 --> 00:24:04.190
Yeah, too bad.

00:24:04.190 --> 00:24:08.439
You're just not good enough, or does nobody ever want to watch you, or there's no place for you to be.

00:24:08.439 --> 00:24:09.767
But what can you do?

00:24:09.767 --> 00:24:14.155
Just to your point, michelle, you can go back into your community.

00:24:14.155 --> 00:24:18.625
You could go out and find those unbelievable little soccer and field hockey athletes.

00:24:18.625 --> 00:24:26.644
You could put skates on them and you could organically and grassroots grow the game, and I think that's where I always come in.

00:24:26.904 --> 00:24:39.280
I have been my whole career as a director and a program administrator have always been like the sooner we can get girls hockey to be girls hockey at six, seven, eight years old, the bigger the pool can become.

00:24:39.280 --> 00:24:44.372
And I don't discount the fact that girls with boys helps in their development.

00:24:44.372 --> 00:24:52.488
Like I see, six year old girls are physically stronger and better than six year old boys in a lot of cases and I think that's more coordinated, which is weird.

00:24:52.488 --> 00:24:56.355
Right that you think about where girls are now in the realm of, like, social media and things like that.

00:24:56.355 --> 00:24:59.686
Like they have more self confidence, they have a little swagger.

00:24:59.686 --> 00:25:03.673
It's when the boys start hitting puberty and the girls have already matured.

00:25:03.673 --> 00:25:17.497
These are just facts, right, these are what we see through USA and through hockey Canada, that all of a sudden, that separation becomes bigger, not because of skill level but because of testosterone and just because of the fact that girls are girls.

00:25:17.897 --> 00:25:35.819
Again, I don't want to say it's the wrong way, I just want to say it in a way where the sooner we get girls, in my opinion, the sooner we get girls playing with girls by offering the top level coaching there can be at the earliest levels, whether it be three, four, five, six years old, and building that competitive format.

00:25:35.819 --> 00:25:49.421
In my world, if I walked into a twin pad facility, I'd see no reason why on this rank there could be 150 girls and on this rank to be 150 boys and on skill sessions there could be 300 together.

00:25:49.421 --> 00:26:07.595
Like to me, none of that stuff really should be roadblocks and if you're a business owner and an investor and somebody that really wants to see the development of your brand, and as far as I could tell the dads and moms that have girls, their money is worth the same as the moms and dads that have boys.

00:26:07.595 --> 00:26:12.866
So to me is why wouldn't you just want more girls playing Right Now again?

00:26:12.866 --> 00:26:19.317
But I think statistically and you correct me if I'm wrong but statistically just more boys play youth sports than girls.

00:26:19.317 --> 00:26:26.635
But and that could change If you can get like I look at soccer and you like to watch a soccer game at six years old.

00:26:26.635 --> 00:26:28.185
You can't tell.

00:26:28.185 --> 00:26:32.750
Boys and girls are out there beating the crap out of each other and somebody's out running somebody.

00:26:32.770 --> 00:26:42.622
But there comes a time for the vast majority of athletes that the girls, physically, are just not in a safe place to play with unskilled boys.

00:26:42.622 --> 00:26:49.057
That's the fact of you're really skilled women and a really unskilled man that just wants to.

00:26:49.057 --> 00:26:51.248
You see it in boys sports.

00:26:51.248 --> 00:26:55.895
I see it in high school where a freshman boy is playing against a senior man.

00:26:55.895 --> 00:27:00.909
They're both males and I'm like I kid shouldn't be playing with that person.

00:27:00.909 --> 00:27:02.009
It's just not safe.

00:27:02.009 --> 00:27:05.134
I think it doesn't enhance their development.

00:27:05.173 --> 00:27:06.276
Now there are there some women.

00:27:06.276 --> 00:27:08.618
You're talking about the one percenters, right.

00:27:08.618 --> 00:27:16.175
You're talking about the people that make the Olympics and you watch any, like I was with the Connecticut whale watching these women play and they.

00:27:16.175 --> 00:27:20.565
I was like they're just good, they're just the best, like they're better than any male I worked with.

00:27:20.565 --> 00:27:38.404
But there comes a time when we have to understand that if we want to grow the game, we want to grow youth sports and we want women and girls to be a part of that, then we have to figure out a way to get the best women like you back to the six and seven year olds and not worry about the 18 year olds, and just build that pool.

00:27:38.404 --> 00:27:41.432
And that's where I think investors then salivate.

00:27:41.432 --> 00:27:42.555
I think they say what do you mean?

00:27:42.555 --> 00:27:46.625
I can have a we call it cradle to grave, right, I can have a cradle to grave customer.

00:27:46.625 --> 00:27:51.133
I don't have to attach myself to this brand when they're 18 and 19.

00:27:51.133 --> 00:27:57.023
I can attach myself to this brand when they're for because we call it lifetime value of a fan.

00:27:57.044 --> 00:28:04.834
That's what we call it, and then an athlete right, your best athletes and your best coaches, male or female, I happen to think, I happen to attract.

00:28:04.834 --> 00:28:09.319
I try to find like we have a cure, dozedale, you must know her from the riveters.

00:28:09.319 --> 00:28:11.622
Like she's working in our region where the junior Rangers are.

00:28:11.622 --> 00:28:19.191
They've invested hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars in girls hockey and not at the professional level which maybe a lot of people say they should be spending more money with.

00:28:19.191 --> 00:28:41.900
Their professionally none of their spend their money and their grassroots efforts by employing these women professional players to work with the five and six and seven and that's how they're making their revenue, right or wrong, and I'm making a revenue through gate receipts they're making the revenue by actually getting their skates on, coming in the rank and being mentors to all these young girls that don't know the difference they look at.

00:28:43.664 --> 00:28:45.046
They're just dreaming about being professional hockey players.

00:28:45.046 --> 00:28:59.306
They're just dreaming about being with great, strong women that, yeah, to compete and want to really put themselves in a situation where they're fighting and going for a goal and just like you did with your kids.

00:28:59.306 --> 00:29:00.507
And I coached up a state.

00:29:00.507 --> 00:29:09.057
So I know Manchester very well and I think, and knowing that region, imagine now when you look at it, some of the best girls in the world are coming out of New Hampshire right now.

00:29:09.057 --> 00:29:21.113
So when you look at the level of play and where we can be, my vision would be let's get all these great women down to the five and six year olds and there I just think the rest will take care of itself.

00:29:21.113 --> 00:29:23.675
I think the rest will just organically grow.

00:29:23.675 --> 00:29:25.939
Will it take longer than maybe some people want?

00:29:25.939 --> 00:29:33.230
Yeah, but to your point, well, I think it all failed a number of times as well, back in the 1800s, because everybody's like what the hell is?

00:29:33.230 --> 00:29:34.991
This is the worst sport I've ever seen.

00:29:34.991 --> 00:29:36.012
Who would watch this?

00:29:45.385 --> 00:29:46.827
It's like a real paradise as it is.

00:29:46.827 --> 00:29:54.757
Yeah, sports, you know, pro sports are not the revenue monster People think they were, until you start seeing those leagues collide in the late 70s, early 80s.

00:29:54.757 --> 00:29:55.738
Then they started to grow.

00:29:55.978 --> 00:30:00.166
But I can certainly see, but I can see the frustration.

00:30:00.166 --> 00:30:06.094
I can see where these women professional players are up until this year and still many of them, right, have to.

00:30:06.094 --> 00:30:07.316
They're working as teachers.

00:30:07.316 --> 00:30:08.116
They get in their car.

00:30:08.116 --> 00:30:09.097
They got to drive to a rink.

00:30:09.097 --> 00:30:10.640
They got to go to practice at 1030 at night.

00:30:10.640 --> 00:30:15.865
They got to go back in their car, drive back to work on the morning, and that's if they're really fortunate to have children.

00:30:15.865 --> 00:30:17.708
Yet Now you can throw in a whole.

00:30:17.708 --> 00:30:18.607
I have two kids at home.

00:30:18.607 --> 00:30:19.509
That's crazy.

00:30:19.509 --> 00:30:20.809
So but then it's.

00:30:20.809 --> 00:30:22.251
The next step is the.

00:30:22.251 --> 00:30:25.433
You have now the opportunity.

00:30:25.433 --> 00:30:32.160
Get back as a youth rink, go out there, get those kids, get into five and six year olds, and then I don't.

00:30:32.180 --> 00:30:36.326
Giving back is not really the right word because I don't have anybody's obligation to get back.

00:30:36.326 --> 00:30:36.988
They earned it.

00:30:36.988 --> 00:30:45.740
But I want to see it grow and you want to see it expand, then somebody needs to be the person that kind of goes back in and builds from the bottom.

00:30:46.684 --> 00:30:53.172
I do know that a lot of women are going back to their ranks, building at the youth level up.

00:30:53.172 --> 00:30:58.457
I know Shelly Looney did an amazing job with the New Jersey Colonial girls organization.

00:30:58.457 --> 00:31:02.780
They're just a powerhouse, from might all the way up to bannums.

00:31:02.780 --> 00:31:07.568
It's highly popular, more popular than the boys in that rank actually.

00:31:07.568 --> 00:31:14.296
And you got Sarah DeCosta who's crushing it with her girls organization over in Rhode Island.

00:31:14.296 --> 00:31:31.833
Lindsay Fry is not only working with the girls youth organization there, but they actually the Arizona coyotes and some other investors built an ice rink, just two surfaces, just for girls and women's hockey only no boys hockey in that rank.

00:31:31.833 --> 00:31:36.257
So the girls are doing everything that they can.

00:31:36.257 --> 00:31:37.637
I just going back.

00:31:37.637 --> 00:31:52.836
I just want to touch on something that you said that really intrigued me our problems right now, I think, just going a little deeper, thinking a little further down the road to what our problems are how we're going to get investors and sponsors.

00:31:52.836 --> 00:31:55.540
We are growing the girls and women's hockey organizations.

00:31:55.540 --> 00:31:57.105
The girls are loving it.

00:31:57.105 --> 00:31:59.409
They don't feel any different.

00:31:59.409 --> 00:32:10.398
It's usually when they get to a certain point around the puberty level where they start to think, okay, I've been playing for a few years, I'm getting really good, but they're.

00:32:10.398 --> 00:32:21.231
Also, parents are dumping a lot of money into their special training clinics, elite programs and, truth be told, girls to develop If they really are talented.

00:32:21.231 --> 00:32:26.517
Parents are coming to me and have been saying look, the girls organizations.

00:32:26.517 --> 00:32:37.509
They're just not designed to further develop the top talented girls because they're trying to keep something for the lower level talented girls, to keep them into the programs.

00:32:37.509 --> 00:32:40.992
If they challenge them too fast, those other girls drop.

00:32:40.992 --> 00:32:42.855
It's too much physically for them.

00:32:42.855 --> 00:32:44.616
They're not used to, they're not acclimated.

00:32:44.616 --> 00:32:56.791
So a lot of talented girls rely on boys elite programs for a couple things One, for the extra time, the developing that the boys have, the higher level practices, higher level of tournaments.

00:32:56.791 --> 00:33:00.996
But to be recruited for college here's the problem.

00:33:00.996 --> 00:33:06.401
Not too many recruiters are going to go to boys programs just to watch one girl on that team.

00:33:07.924 --> 00:33:20.476
We had the opportunity to coach a lot of checking clinics where we taught mechanics to boys and girls who are just transitioning into Peewe and, like you said, the body.

00:33:20.476 --> 00:33:27.942
Right around that level, the youth level, girls are actually maturing physically a lot faster than the boys.

00:33:27.942 --> 00:33:34.328
The problem is let's take an example, jim fitness test that the kids go through in schools.

00:33:34.328 --> 00:33:36.570
Boys and the girls have different standards.

00:33:36.570 --> 00:33:40.213
Of course the girls had fewer standards fewer sit ups, fewer push ups.

00:33:40.213 --> 00:33:43.296
Girls girls didn't even have to do pull ups, they just have to dangle from the bar.

00:33:43.915 --> 00:33:58.932
Even though pediatricians support the fact that girls mature faster than boys physically, they actually, when we go through these checking clinics, the girls physically react the same, if not a little faster.

00:33:58.932 --> 00:34:01.915
They can handle the physical checking.

00:34:01.915 --> 00:34:04.077
If they learn the mechanics properly.

00:34:04.077 --> 00:34:11.751
They can take a check just like a boy and boys, even though through puberty they might appear to be changing physically.

00:34:11.751 --> 00:34:16.896
It's really when they start lifting weights and when boys start lifting weights.

00:34:16.896 --> 00:34:26.786
Now girls are starting to do it with their sports because even in college college women's ice hockey programs they have to go to the weight rooms Five days a week just like the boys.

00:34:26.786 --> 00:34:33.768
So they have to prepare physically If they're going to play at the women's collegiate physically lifting weights.

00:34:33.768 --> 00:34:36.708
So now we're looking at kids between 12 and 16.

00:34:36.708 --> 00:34:38.867
Honestly, I think it's safe.

00:34:38.867 --> 00:34:44.237
Any woman that's played on the women's Olympic national team has been there at that level.

00:34:44.237 --> 00:34:45.918
They'll say they can certainly handle it.

00:34:46.059 --> 00:34:50.925
And I think I want to point out a gentleman named John Brinkus.

00:34:50.925 --> 00:34:54.594
He was an extraordinary Ted talker speaker.

00:34:54.594 --> 00:34:57.480
He spoke on the topic of why girls and boys should play sports.

00:34:57.480 --> 00:35:00.425
He analyzes the limitations of human performance.

00:35:00.425 --> 00:35:19.510
He had a front row seat in analyzing the world's greatest athletes of both men and women, and in it he tells us the idea that we have women, that we have woven into our fabric, into our especially American DNA, that bigger, stronger, faster means that you're better, is actually wrong.

00:35:19.510 --> 00:35:29.423
The same data that bigger, faster, stronger means you're better it's been projected on a wide swath of population and it's held them down unnecessarily.

00:35:29.423 --> 00:35:37.559
And we project that on our girls and we tell them from day one You'll never be as fast, you'll never be as big, you'll never be as strong, so don't even try.

00:35:37.559 --> 00:35:43.510
Yeah, so they're going to separate you out and there'll be boys leagues and girls leagues and we're not going to play together.

00:35:44.893 --> 00:35:50.144
So this is actually very damaging to a little girl's ego, to what is possible for her.

00:35:50.144 --> 00:35:58.137
We're telling her you're never going to compete professionally with the boys, so don't even develop with the boys and that's modeled for girls all the way up to professional level.

00:35:58.137 --> 00:36:06.510
That's really why these former professional men and women are coming into my organization to change this illusion, or what we've programmed.

00:36:06.510 --> 00:36:26.295
So girls, little girls when they see men and women coming in together, coach and mentor and actually encouraging girls to play in maybe boys leagues in their primary season and then in a girls spring summer league, but to get that exposure from recruiters.

00:36:26.295 --> 00:36:28.659
That's more what we're looking to promote.

00:36:28.739 --> 00:36:34.469
Now we understand that some girls don't have that goal, so we want them to have the all girls leagues to be able to play in.

00:36:34.469 --> 00:36:52.538
So we're not really encouraging all girls, but what we're trying to say here, if we want to get them to the professional level or even have that possible chance from the very beginning, we need to reprogram them and to let them feel comfortable and they're not different from boys.

00:36:52.538 --> 00:36:55.141
When they're practicing with them, they're actually going to benefit them.

00:36:55.141 --> 00:37:07.056
The boys are going to benefit because when I found talented girls are practicing with a boys elite team, what I see is the boys actually look at the girl.

00:37:07.056 --> 00:37:12.563
As you know, she's encouraging them to work hard because they see her work in twice as hard.

00:37:12.563 --> 00:37:14.025
That's what I was told.

00:37:14.510 --> 00:37:20.641
The best advice I was ever given to my father was you don't have to be the best, but you will have to work twice as hard as everybody.

00:37:20.641 --> 00:37:27.914
Ok, it doesn't matter whether you play with girls or boys, you're always going to have to play twice as hard, but you don't have to be the best.

00:37:27.914 --> 00:37:33.081
With that being said, as I was playing with boys, I knew I had to work twice as harder.

00:37:33.081 --> 00:37:39.835
So everything they did, I did twice as harder and, with them seeing it, they were like she can't work harder than me.

00:37:39.835 --> 00:37:42.800
I'm a boy, I'm supposed to be stronger and do more than her.

00:37:42.800 --> 00:37:46.206
So they worked harder to just to keep up with me.

00:37:46.206 --> 00:37:49.221
Not to go faster than me, but to keep up with me.

00:37:49.221 --> 00:37:53.193
I pulled them up in my youth, yeah it's a healthy competition.

00:37:53.753 --> 00:37:55.014
Is everything this competition?

00:37:55.556 --> 00:37:55.836
Yeah.

00:37:55.836 --> 00:37:56.838
So a lot of girls.

00:37:56.838 --> 00:38:02.387
They like that competition, they have a passion for sports and they're true athletes from the very beginning.

00:38:02.387 --> 00:38:14.510
And even reffing as I've been reffing a lot of talented elite boys games or men's games I found more and more girls are coming to watch because they've never seen a woman ref boys or men's.

00:38:14.510 --> 00:38:18.056
And even the coaches at first were like I've never seen a woman coach.

00:38:18.056 --> 00:38:22.384
And I said that's really sad, because we've got a lot of talented players.

00:38:23.530 --> 00:38:28.838
Why aren't they transitioning into officiating college professional Olympic?

00:38:28.838 --> 00:38:34.268
All that because no one's recruiting and no one told them there's more than just being a player.

00:38:34.268 --> 00:38:35.510
You can be a coach to it, all these levels.

00:38:35.510 --> 00:38:42.458
But then when I was collegiate coaching I took a look around and I saw maybe 13% were women.

00:38:42.458 --> 00:38:44.981
At the college level they were mostly men.

00:38:44.981 --> 00:38:53.393
As I talked to a lot of girls that were coming up through the ranks that I was coaching through the youth, then through the college programs, and then they said now what do I do?

00:38:53.393 --> 00:38:55.297
I want to play professional.

00:38:55.297 --> 00:38:56.679
And I said what about coaching?

00:38:56.679 --> 00:38:58.063
What about reffing in the meanwhile?

00:38:58.063 --> 00:39:01.489
And they sort of shook their head like I never thought of that.

00:39:01.489 --> 00:39:02.231
I never thought of that.

00:39:02.291 --> 00:39:03.652
And I said definitely.

00:39:04.134 --> 00:39:05.516
So I guess I think that's my whole point.

00:39:05.516 --> 00:39:06.737
Right, if that's the end goal.

00:39:06.737 --> 00:39:10.322
Right, because the conversation I have my father, michelle, is the same as your conversation.

00:39:10.322 --> 00:39:12.407
I was a buck 15 in high school.

00:39:12.407 --> 00:39:13.371
You want to play.

00:39:13.371 --> 00:39:14.836
You better, keep up, you can get your.

00:39:14.836 --> 00:39:17.844
You're getting your butt kicked boy, girl, I don't know what, it doesn't matter to me.

00:39:17.844 --> 00:39:18.507
Bottom lines you want to compete.

00:39:18.527 --> 00:39:24.315
If you're a competitor or a competitor, it might not be the most popular statement in the world, but there are just differences are going to.

00:39:24.315 --> 00:39:33.947
If I have a kid that's graduating college and he gets to play professional hockey in an equal league, then let everybody go out there and compete, but I think what you're saying, though, is exactly my point earlier.

00:39:33.947 --> 00:39:47.510
If we want more officials girls, if we want more girls coaching, if we want, then we have to have more girls leagues earlier, and then put that little 10 year old girl reffing the six year old girls.

00:39:47.510 --> 00:40:07.534
Listen, this is just my experience, and I've done a lot of programs and a lot of very large programs, like hundreds and hundreds of kids in a youth program, and I found, in the majority of the programs I've worked in, if I separate the girls earlier and put them in girls groups alone together, I get more girls at the end.

00:40:08.134 --> 00:40:14.422
Now, do I get the girls that are surpassing or better, that are just physically better?

00:40:14.422 --> 00:40:15.603
Are they advancing?

00:40:15.603 --> 00:40:17.085
Yes, I think they're advancing anyway.

00:40:17.085 --> 00:40:34.489
But if you want to grow the numbers right, if you want just the equal amount of girls as boys, the fact is, when I've seen it, when I put girls with girls at eight, nine, 10 years old, they react better with girls than if I inject them into a group of a bunch of 10 year old boys.

00:40:34.489 --> 00:40:38.733
10 year old boys they're paying the ass and they have egos and they have.

00:40:38.733 --> 00:40:44.840
They have their own confidence issues and, whether it's right or wrong, that's just where we are right now.

00:40:44.840 --> 00:40:54.431
So if I can put girls and I see it all the time we come up with a clinic and I put a bunch of pink helmets together and but I and I talk to them, know, like hockey players- yeah.

00:40:55.291 --> 00:40:55.693