The Path To College Hockey With The Hockey Think Tank

SPEAKER_03 1:23

Hey everybody, we got the hockey think tank guys on today. Jeff LeVecchio and Topher Scott are both here to talk to us a little bit about our kids playing hockey. We uh we go over some great topics here. One is the path to college hockey or even beyond. What does that look like? Uh both these guys played NCAA Division I hockey. Topher's actually working at Michigan right now. So these are the guys you want to get that information from. Uh, we've also talked about youth hockey and how that's approached as coaches, as parents, as players. Uh, and then we have a great talk about just culture in hockey to round it up. It's a fantastic episode. If you don't know hockey think tank, go check them out immediately. It is one of the top 10 podcasts in hockey, right? So it's it should be well known. And it's we always say kind of required reading or required listening. But before we finally get into the episode, if you want to support us, as you may know, we have been nominated to be the hockey sports podcasting podcast of the year with the Sports Podcasting Awards. Uh, as we've been mentioning in the last few episodes. So if you're inclined and you have a moment, you can pause. Uh, head over to our kidsplayhockey.com. We'll have a link right on the page that will lead you to that voting process to help us get that top spot, even though being nominated is a heck of an honor uh with that organization. So thank you so much for your support. Thank you so much for watching and listening to the show, however you consume it. Let's have you consume another episode right now. Here's Our Kids Play Hockey with the boys from the hockey think tank. Hello, hockey friends and families around the world, and welcome to another edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. I'm Leah Lyas, joined by Mike Benelli. Christy Cashiona Burns is on assignment tonight, literally. Uh, but we're joined today by two very important hockey people whom also happen to be the host of one of hockey's top podcasts, the hockey think tank. Topher Scott, the director of hockey operations for Michigan, is here with us. He is a former pro player and NCAA athlete where he served as the captain at Cornell and has also coached at the NCAA level with Miami Up Ohio prior to returning to his alma mater, where he won two Ivy League championships with advancements to the NCAA tournament as an assistant coach. And Jeff Lavecchio, who's also a professional performance coach, had a healthy professional career, spending 10 seasons. After a three-year stay with Western Michigan University, not to be confused with Michigan University, where Tofer is, which is a rival, which hopefully will come up tonight. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. Stay tuned. That's the little carrot I throw out, guys, to get everybody to listen. Uh, it's gonna make it a fun episode for both of them. Above that, both of these guys are top thought leaders in the sport and hockey podcasting, and we are going to have a wonderful conversation today. Boys, welcome to our kids play hockey.

unknown 3:48

Woo!

SPEAKER_04 3:49

Let's go. Woo! We both go, woo, thank you. Not not often called a thought leader, so I appreciated that. Thank you. Thanks for lumping me in. I'm the thought, I'm the thought executor.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

The thought executor. You know, it just came up as Waynes World. Hi, I'm in Delaware.

SPEAKER_03 4:10

You know, as someone who's lived in Delaware uh for one year due to the military, I uh that uh there's a lot of truth in that statement. I'm not gonna lie. But uh boys, let me be the first to congratulate you on uh 250 episodes of really what is an incredibly impactful show in hockey. Um, you are both thought leaders. You know, Jeff, I was talking to before the show just about your social media account, um, which I see on mine all the time. But every piece of content you put out, I'm being serious now, has value, it has impact, uh, and and really it's stuff that needs to be heard. I mean, there's a clear uh uh drive there from you to serve the hockey community. And again, Topher, you do this too. It's gonna be tough complimenting you both all night. Just know that I have a lot of respect for both of you. Uh you guys are thought leaders. Yeah, 250 episodes in, man. That's congratulations. That's fantastic.

SPEAKER_04 4:57

Yeah, it's it's crazy. I was telling somebody the other day, like, God, that's so many episodes. And I and they're like, if you could only if you could pick one to go back and like relive, and I was like, I just have to do the first one because we knew nothing about podcasting, nothing about how to do it. We were like laughing before, and we were like, All right, um, he Top was, you know, in where were you, New York when we when we started? Yeah, I was like, I think he was like, All right, I'm hitting record, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 5:25

We were doing on like Skype and like calling people on their phones, and then it became this thing.

SPEAKER_04 5:30

I had this headset that looked like it was from the 80s, like, and then I listened to like one of our first episodes recently, and I was like, Wow, our microphones were so bad, you know. But we just we did it, and then here we are a couple years later, 250 is pretty cool.

SPEAKER_03 5:45

And what year did you start it?

SPEAKER_01 5:47

I believe it was 2018.

SPEAKER_02 5:49

Yeah, November 2018 was when we first started.

SPEAKER_03 5:51

So 45 years ago before the pandemic, got it. Sounds about right, yes. Yeah, so it's a good time to start a podcast. You know what's funny about podcasting, guys, is you know, when you're doing it kind of weekly or every few days, uh, you know, there's a there's a linear effect to how you look at it, but you're right. When you go back to the first episode, and Mike, I've done this, you go back to our first episode, it's just so choppy and not not smooth, and it's amazing the evolution of it. But uh nonetheless, 250 episodes is an accomplishment. Uh, and like I said, it's it's they're all re-listenable, which is awesome. Um, so that's the first thing I wanted to do. The second thing I want to get into today, and this is I know the listeners are itching into. Both of you have really healthy uh insight on college hockey. Obviously, Toper, with your current role, you have the ultimate insight. Uh, Jeff, you help a lot of athletes, obviously played in college. And I know a lot of listeners are always interested in hearing about hey, should my son or daughter want to pursue a collegiate career, what do I have to do? So I want to take some time here to go over kind of the positives, like, hey, these are the good things, these are the things you want to try and do, and maybe some of the negatives. Uh, even, you know, talking about cash grab kind of tryouts or, you know, aspects of training that don't make sense or pushing kids too hard. Uh, I want to talk about all that because I think it's gonna bring tremendous value to the listeners.

SPEAKER_02 7:09

Yeah, I I think it's a great question. And I think a lot of kids that are probably listening, and a lot of parents have kids that are listening. That that's one of the goals is to play college hockey. And the first thing I tell everybody is the better your grades are, the more opportunity you're gonna have to play college hockey. Um, whether that's division one, whether that's division three, and that's another thing. Like, there's a lot of levels of college hockey too. There's division one, there's division three, there's ACHA Club, and and all are good, and there's people, there's a level for everybody, right? So um, but the better your grades are, the more opportunity you're gonna give yourself to be able to play. There's schools that you need to get into with an academic profile. And if you have really great grades, there's 62 Division I college hockey teams. You can get into 62 schools, but the further your grades go down, and you're you're talking like some of the top schools academically in the United States, you know, schools like the Ivy's, you know, Michigan, Colorado College, Boston University, Boston College, like these are all really, really good hockey schools, but they're also really, really good academic institutions that you have to have really good grades to get into, right? So, first and foremost, if you want to play, give yourself the best opportunity. And to do that, get the grades. So, mom and dad, I'm sure you're happy with me saying this. It's not just you telling them.

SPEAKER_04 8:33

And he's not lying. I mean, I I tell a story all the time where I had a game in what I played in the USHL for three years, uh, 17, 18, and 19. So one year out of high school. And I had a game where I was electric, you know, just doing my thing as usual. Uh, had an absolute shake and bake bar down on somebody who was actually my roommate later when I was with the Bruins, Kevin Regan, sick goalie. I think he's on like UNH or hockey east, all time top 100, top 10, something gross. But I absolutely buried on him, not a big deal. And uh after the game, uh, my coach is like, hey, you know, college coach wants to talk, you go in there. And it was uh University of Maine, and that was like one of my dream schools. And he was like, you know, we checked your ACTs, we checked your your GPA, all that stuff. We're really interested. If we want to have you down for a visit, we'll let you know. You can definitely get into school, that won't be a problem. I was like, Oh, you know, that's great, blah blah blah. So I walk out of that one. Coach is like, All right, another one in here. So I go into the the next room, and it was Dartmouth. And the literally the first thing the guy says is 99% sure you can't get into our school. If you can, we're interested, and we'll we'll let you know, we'll give you a call if you can get in. And you know, never never got that call. He was correct. I couldn't get in. So by and I didn't have bad grades, you know. I I think I finished uh high school with the 3.33 GPA, and uh I only took the ACT once. I got a 23 on it, I believe. So not like a great score by any means, but but not bad. And I got I was able to get into a lot of schools, but I couldn't get into probably 15 division one schools, 12 division one schools. So right away, you know, I cut off the percentage of me going to play college hockey by shortening uh uh the the roster of teams that I could possibly play for. So Tope is a hundred percent correct on that.

SPEAKER_02 10:16

Yeah, and and as a college recruiter at Cornell, like one of the worst things was going to a game and seeing a kid that you love, like, man, this kid's really good. I would love to coach them, and and then finding out going down and asking what their grades were and being like, uh dang, I can't, you know, can't do it. And usually those kids like you don't know, like that's the thing, like your grades start in ninth grade, you know. So sometimes kids are like, yeah, it's just ninth grade, uh, whatever, tenth grade, uh, whatever. And then, you know, sometimes like they start to to pop or they start to get better and they start to get some interest or whatever, and and it's too late because the school that they wanted to go to, they're like, Yeah, they didn't get the job done in your first couple of years. So it's just like it's it's always the thing that I start with. You obviously have to be a good hockey player. We can talk about hockey stuff, we can talk about character stuff, um, all of the things that we look into as college coaches to bring kids into our programs. But at the end of the day, academics is is such a big part of it. And um, I just I I don't think I can say it enough to to all the kids that are out there listening.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

I I think you know, watching both of you guys over the last few years, you know, uh from afar, you know, through social media and just your messaging and even through the hockey think tank podcast is about discipline, right? And about about structure and about you know, having planning your day. And I think so, you know, even even if you're unable to get the 3.9 GPA and knock it out of the park, the coaches see the effort and they see the discipline and they see the work ethic. So, yeah, maybe, maybe you're not gonna be able to get into that, you know, the clearinghouse type of school, but the discipline that still goes into your day-to-day life as a hockey player and a student athlete, it to Topher's point, is only gonna give you more opportunity. I mean, I just watched your buddy Starman post a whole bunch of stuff from Sacred Heart University at their rank at their new at their new facility saying they have varsity, ACHA, ACHA too, club. Like they and you know, so you're going to a good school in an unbelievable place. And but if you and but you have to get into the school, you have to be able to get in. And I think, you know, that's I think listening to you guys over the last few years that that a that a player can understand that that every piece of their discipline, whether it's nutrition, you know, academics, weightlifting, hockey, obviously, all goes into that complete athlete that you know, Topher. That's what that's what guys like you were looking for.

SPEAKER_02 12:38

Yeah, and and I think it's important, Mike, that's actually a really good point. I think it's important to talk about like not everybody is blessed with you know being able to get good grades. You know, it it's more about the effort that you put into it. And you can tell that on a transcript, you can tell that by talking to uh a high school or talking to, you know, whoever it is that's in charge of your academic profile. Um, because uh at the end of the day, like, yes, for Ivy League schools where I recruited at, there are certain numbers that you have to hit to be able to get in. But at the end of the day, at a lot of other schools, it's not necessarily like, hey, you have to have straight A's or you have to only have A's and Bs. It's like, okay, what's the trajectory? Have they gotten better from ninth grade to 12th grade? You know, is there a consistency in the grades? Is the comments from the teachers and the professors on the report guard, are those positive and and talking good about your work ethic and things like that? Because and I think that's really important because, like at the end of the day, like I would rather, and and like just from a even a hockey standpoint, and I went through this coaching at an Ivy League school, like there are kids that are really smart kids that don't care about school and don't try. But we are big believers that how you do anything is how you do everything. You know, I'd rather take a B student that has to work to get B's than take an A student that you know doesn't care, is just intellectually gifted and but doesn't care about you know what I mean? Like so sort of the kids like, ah man, I don't know if I can get all A's. That's okay. Like it's okay as long as you put the effort into it, that doesn't go unnoticed.

SPEAKER_03 14:17

So let me jump in here, Jess. So I'm taking a ton of notes here, which is great. But so if we're just on that point, right, and Jeff, you too. Like one of the things I know about the highest performers, the highest achievers, is they don't pick and choose where they try to achieve. They're doing it in everything they do all the time, how they take out the garbage to how they play the game. It's done well, right? It's it's not just limited to the game. And you know, like part of this conversation, what you're saying, and again, these are some of my notes, you know, about academics being expected. Having coached at the college level, you too, uh guys, it's like, you know, the last thing a coach wants to do, I I think coaches care genuinely that you do well in school, but they don't want it to be a distraction from their job, right? It's expected that you're gonna do well in school. You talked about ninth grade. Well, the training for that starts earlier. You don't just magically become a great student in ninth grade. You've got eight grades prior to that to figure out how to be a good student. Um here's another one I wanted to talk about. Um, I've seen a lot of talent, extreme talent, pro-level talent go wayside because they cannot figure out what we're talking about. It's not just good grades, but just effort in applying themselves at school. And then you hear this, and this is a this is a red flag I want to bring up. Well, if I'll just go to juniors, all right? That should not be your mentality. If you get to go play junior hockey, you know, God bless you. But that is a backup plan, that's that's not how you should be looking at this, right? It's I'm gonna go play, right? And I'm gonna do whatever I need to play. Jeff, you said it beautifully before. Why would you try to eliminate options with something as simple as just applying yourself? And Topher, I want to also say what you said too. Not everybody's a great student, right? But that doesn't mean you're not trying. It doesn't mean you're not pushing yourself, right? And I think that this is important too, parents, that Topher just said. They look at the type of person you are, they look at the report cards, they look at what the teachers are saying, they're looking at more than just your ability on the ice. He said it a minute ago, what a great player. I can't take them. So when you play this back for your kids, parents, which I know all of you are gonna do, because that's Topher, you did say everything that parents want to hear. Understand that there's so much going into this more than just how great of a player you are, right?

SPEAKER_04 16:31

And to that point you said of, oh, I'll just go play juniors. I remember there was a couple summers here in St. Louis where uh I was playing pro at the time and I had my company going already. It was probably like it was probably like maybe after my sixth or seventh year pro. So I had my company going for a couple years, and I was working with like some of the best triple A players um around the midget age in St. Louis. And at the time, they'd be like, Oh, well, I'm gonna I'm gonna play in the the you show. Um it's the you show, like I'm gonna get to the you show. And I was like, there's one show, it's the NHL, all right. There's one show, first of all, it's the USHL. And you don't just get to play in the best league in North America, maybe the world, you don't just get to. And they're like, Yeah, but if I don't make that, like I probably will, like, I'll just go play in the gnall. And I'm like, oh, you'll just go play in the gnall. Like you're just gonna, you're just gonna just like bounce right there like it's easy. And I'm like, no, you're not, you're not, you're not. It's like, don't don't ever be like, well, I'm just gonna like see what happens, and then if this doesn't work out, I'll just be able to go do this. And it's like, no, guys, that's not how it works. And you should be going a hundred miles an hour at your goal, a hundred miles an hour, zero compromise mentality as far as if that's what you're saying you want. And then if you don't make it, that's when other things will start to present themselves because you've done so well at preparing yourself and getting better through that process of trying to attack your goals. Then other opportunities will appear, or you will able to be able to capitalize on other opportunities because you're ready, because you actually gave everything to your goal. And for me, like the like you said, there's nothing worse than seeing wasted potential. It's it's so hard for me to see. I was talking uh with some college guys in my gym today about it. You know, those are the guys who, when they leave something on the table uh down the road, they're the guys who are depressed, who are in a bottle and things like that, because they know that they wasted their their one opportunity, which is your youth. It's not just like one physical opportunity, it's your whole youth, like you know, and they just wish that they could have gone back and given more. So that's why we do what we do. We always preach. Like, if you have a goal, like give everything to it, everything you can.

SPEAKER_03 18:39

Well, and and Jeff, that's gold. And and I'll say this too, that that goes so far beyond hockey, right? Like, you know, you're you guys aren't successful in your life now because of not working hard, right? Like Mike, Mike's business is not because he didn't work hard, right? So uh all this stuff, especially parents and kids, and you know, I'll equate this to something else in a minute, but that work ethic transfers to so many different things. And when you or your child realize, oh, I can apply that work ethic to anything, man, the world's really gonna open up for him. Now, with that said, when you're 14, you don't think that way. You're not thinking about the job you're gonna have after hockey, you're thinking about I gotta make it in hockey. And and one of the things that I think is really hard for younger people to understand, I'll say 18 down, is that should you play college hockey at any level, I'm talking NCAA one down to ACHA three or club. It's a gift. All right, not everybody gets to do that. Now, I do understand when you're 18 and you're having ACHA schools look at you and you want to play NCAA, I I understand that. But do not take for granted any opportunity that you're getting because not everybody gets that opportunity. And I wanted to talk to you guys about that, just kind of closing out the college hockey loop, just about the gift of college hockey, or I should say post-high school hockey, and that is a development for you because all roads lead to men's league, adult league. They all they all end up there, it doesn't matter what you do. At some point you're gonna be there, and then there's their over 40, and then maybe you can be like that 90-year-old guy with the great mustache that still plays every week at some point. That guy's a legend, he should have a statue. But can you guys just talk about the gift of post-high school hockey at a competitive level?

SPEAKER_02 20:27

Is there anything better than being a part of a team and going after something with a common goal with like people who you would I don't want to say literally die for, but like people who you would block shots for and sacrifice like what better thing is there than that? And then what comes along with that? All the fun times in the locker room and the stupid things you do off the ice and the fun things that you do, and and just like building those bonds. I mean, you you don't I I find it hard to believe, and I think this is why you have so many ex-college or professional athletes that kind of go down the wrong path, is because they don't have that camaraderie anymore, you know, and and so it's not about like quote unquote making it, and Jeff and I talk about this all the time like making it is different for so many people. Some people making it is just being able to play at a club level because that's where their talent tops out and they just want to play the game that they love, god forbid, you know. Um, you know, some people making it is they want to be in the NHL and they've dedicated their entire life to that. And so, you know, when you talk about being able to play, it is it's a privilege to be able to do that, and and what everybody talks about once they're done with hockey is just the room, the boys, the girls, hanging out, the camaraderie, the the sarcasm, the who's got the ox cord and the music, like like that Jeff, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:03

Um Bluetooth now, guys. Don't date yourselves, jeez.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

You know, it's just it's it's so for me. It's so that's that's the point, right? Is like so I do I do a lot of skate sharpening and I try to do a lot of profiling, just specialty sharpening and all that crap. And and my my the people that hang around my shop the longest are adult league guys the the easily talking to sit here, like uh I like sharpening parasites. It's okay, you gotta get out of here. Like, oh, you're kicking me out. I just want to, you know, like oh, I want to check out this. Or what do you think about this stick? Hey, what about that? What kind of laces do you like? Oh, do you like this? You like it's all about just being in and these guys are coming coming home home from like a 12-hour like work day, like real work. Like, what's that thing? Like, if you go and work out after work, you really don't have the hardest job in the world, right? If you're in like the workout, like these guys are coming from work, they're they're like muddy and dirty, and and and they're going to a 10 30 adult league game and they can't wait to get there. And yeah, it's early. And they can't wait to get there because that's because either either A, they never had that growing up, they didn't have that room, right? Or they miss it. And it's something like it's a really great place uh to come into. And and I think if you can, if our if the kids can get An opportunity to do that. It's really one of the reasons that, you know, Topher and I used to go back and forth about, you know, how jaded I am and and upset I am with youth hockey. And it was always based off the fact that I love like that's what I miss. I want that from my I want my 12-year-olds to experience that. Like I don't want my 12-year-olds thinking three months into a season, they've got to get out of that room and look for another room. Like the joy of being on a program. And maybe you guys could both speak to a little bit because you both came from like an organization that that that had players play together for a long period of time, right? So maybe we can get to it down the road. But that the the reason why we get players in rooms and build all of these great things that hockey that any sport gives us, hockey in particular, because we're in a locker room, that it's just different. It's just a it's a it's a thing that when you're in it, you you you you you actually feel bad for people that miss it.

SPEAKER_04 24:07

100%. And and I think that's also it gets so impactful on people's lives, and it's so powerful that people when they're when their seasons, their careers end, they get slightly depressed because they're not having that social interaction. Same thing with COVID. Why would why did oppression skyrocket? Like nobody was talking to each other, no one's hugging each other, no one was seeing each other, no one was high-fiving each other, no face-to-face contact. Like that is completely like abnormal for human beings. Like, we need that, we crave it. There, when when you're talking to somebody, when you're around people, it's not just like an information or a monetary transfer. There's there's also an energy transfer between people. Like you you give and you take with energy, and it happens a lot in locker rooms. And so, guys, when they retire and they don't like play men's league or they don't coach, I tell every guy, like, you know, get into some kind of coaching or like, even though I absolutely hate CrossFit, like go to a gym that's like a CrossFit where there's an atmosphere and it's like a family and things like that, because you're really gonna miss that. And I'm I I'm very aware of that because I'm so lucky that I have that because of what I do for a living. I I have that culture in my gym, but my teammates who retire around me and and before me and after me, like I see what they've gone through and and how much they miss that locker room aspect of their life.

SPEAKER_03 25:32

Yeah, you know, I'll say this too, guys. And I love what you're talking about. I think I I talked about this when I was on your show. By the way, if you listen to one episode of the hockey think tank, don't make it my episode. There's way better ones. But but if you if you can listen to one of more than one, it's out there. But look, we we talked about what causes depression, and we talked about how uh retiring athletes uh and retiring military experience the same kind of post-career depression, and it's because of the loss of three things community, purpose, and identity. When you leave a team, you are giving up a lot of that. And if you're not prepared for that, it's gonna be painful. Now, the way I'm gonna spin this into a question, which is the idea, is that good hosting. I hey, listen, man, I've been doing it for a few minutes, right? So the the idea is this is that we can teach these things at a younger age than people think. All right. And what's happening right now in our country and what's happening right now in hockey, there are a lot of forces pulling people apart from each other when really, Jeff, as you just said, we need to be working more on coming together. Topher, you said it perfectly. What's better than being part of a team? What's better than being part of a group of people going towards a common goal? To me, outside the obvious tactical and skill-based part of hockey, we are spending little to no time on that. And it is just as, if not more important long term for youth hockey players to understand the purpose of that, to give them that perspective, to understanding that there's more than one way to win in hockey. The trophies are wonderful. But I say this all the time: those moments are just moments. They come and they go, and you can't stay in them. And what you do the other 99.999% of the time, because that's really how what it is like, is important. And, you know, little things like the one I remember, I actually got this one coach in football, believe it or not. Um, you know, after the game in football, a lot of times guys will kneel and pray. And I remember that uh one of the coaches had us be thank the opponent. Not like shaking hands after a hockey game, like, thank God we had an opponent to help hone our skills tonight, to challenge us, to beat us in some forms. I had never heard anybody really think about it like that. Um, because you know, I'm like, I'm competitive, I want to win. But after the game, just to have the gratitude of this team taught us something about ourselves, win or loss, which is automatically a win. So turning this towards youth hockey, all right. I want to talk to you two a bit about what you love and hate about youth hockey, what we can do and improve it. And then obviously I want to have a conversation about how important this cultural piece is that you can start doing this in U6 and U8. And we know that because we do it successfully, right? That you can teach culture, you can teach teamwork. You know, I'll give a great example, right? We do team building with my kids' mites team. Uh, the last two years, I'm gonna I'm gonna preface this. I have never on the ice ever taught a kid to dive in front of a puck. Ever. I've never taught it, I've never mentioned it, I've never said it's a tactic, but sure as hell, at the end of the season, I have seen kids jump in front of a puck to help their goalie, to help their team, because they care that much. At eight years old, right? They're every one of them's okay, by the way. They're using blue pups, no one's hurting, don't worry. Right? Yeah, I wouldn't, yeah. I want to talk to you guys about this. How important is culture in youth hockey and and how can we start to implement it at really some of the younger ages?

SPEAKER_02 28:54

How much time do you have uh for you?

SPEAKER_04 28:58

This is what our entire show is based on, I think.

SPEAKER_03 29:01

I know you should just say listen to episode one through two fifty of the hockey thing.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

Um we want we want the cliff notes.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

We want the cliff notes.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

I'll I'll just I'll just start this with saying that I'm very worried about our sport and not just our sport, but I'm worried about you sports in general because of what we're talking about right now. It has become a business that makes billions of dollars, that's billions with a B. And it is a business that promotes individuality over team. I don't know, Mike 75, 80, 90 percent of the time. Um, kids are ranked at these young ages. Yeah, um social media profiles that you know people are making for their kids, these recruiting uh companies are going after kids. Like it it has become everything that sports was not meant to be. Sports was meant to be a an outlet for kids to uh be physically and mentally healthy, you know, go get a workout and and be healthy, uh, to learn how to be part of a team and to learn how to be a part of something greater than yourself, uh, to learn how to fail and and and to figure out how to get up when you get knocked down. Um that is what is the magic of youth sports when it's at its best. And my fear and my anxiety about the way that our sport, the sport that we've given our life to, has become and is becoming more and more by the day is promoting everything that I just said is not. And that is making it, that is pressure, that is professionalization, that is win at all costs, that is putting the eye in front of the team. Um and it's it's a big problem. It it's a it's a really, really big problem. Now, I will say that there are people out there that are doing some amazing things, and I don't want to paint our entire sport at those levels with the same brush. Um, I think 90% of the people that are in youth hockey are trying to do things for the right reasons. Um, but this machine that youth sports has become makes it much more difficult to, you know, do the things that we were talking about than it used to be when Vex and I were and we all were growing up, right? Like, and so you have to go, like you have to go outside the box to do those things now. Like a mat like I my dad runs a freaking tier two organization in Chicago, and the amount of emails that he sends me about like parents complaining about ice time and their kids should be on this team, and like the coach should be shortening the bench, and like pee we be and and stuff like it makes me sick, man. Like it it makes me sick, and um I think we need to get back we talk about this all the time, Lee. I know you're big on this too. It's the why. Like, why are you putting your kids in youth sports? Like really, like why are you putting your kids in use sports? Is it to is it to make it or is it to teach them the life lessons that's gonna um allow them to be good husbands or wives, or fathers or mothers, or employees or employers, because like you said, all roads lead to men's league, and the best players in the world are in men's league when they're 35 years old. If they're really, really lucky 40 years old, you know, or or or you're or you're 50 and you buy a protein.

SPEAKER_00 32:49

But I think I I think I I I think you're you know, this is and I think this is where the frustration is, and and certainly for me, it's always been this way is that after all of the things you tried to do and all these attributes you want to learn and all these things you want to put in front of your kids, what happens is all those things we want them to to kind of aspire to have, the the the camaraderie and the teamwork and the selflessness and all these great things, they get they get eaten apart always internally because it's because they're always looking at well that that those two kids are going there, and then these two kids are going there, and then then I have to leave and I'm getting recruited for this team, and I'm and and it all comes down, and I've always I think I've said this since the day I got involved in coaching, it's our problem. It's it's the it's it's the it's and I do this in lacrosse too. I run a I run a you know a fun lacrosse town program, and it's even seeping into that. Like nobody wants to train, everybody wants to play games, everybody wants to know when we're going on a showcase, everyone wants to know where we're going and getting looked at. I said, for what are you getting looked at for? I said the the same eight crappy kids that we have are are right down the street. We can play them right now. We don't need to go to, you know, we don't need to go two hours away to play that same level, but you can have the experiences, you can put these experiences in, and I think that's where people, and I think it's because I don't know, maybe less maybe, maybe less rinks and ownerships are are true nonprofit, you know, community-based programs anymore. Now they're just everything's about, you know, they think they need to like have all these different types of programming and to continue to make money to keep their building open. I I can't figure it out. Like I've done the math on most of these programs, and if you had rec if you focus on recreation hockey and all the things you just talked about, Topher, you'd actually make a lot more money and you'd probably produce a lot better kid.

SPEAKER_04 34:35

Yeah, I I think that tof like it's so you boil it down to like simplistic terms, like organizations need to determine what is our why, right? What is it, what are what are our what's our main goal, and then like what are our core values as an organization? Every coach, what do we want them instilling in every player? And I'm not talking about hockey right now. This isn't hockey, this is life. Every single coach that is in hockey in any youth sport, like first of obviously, I'm not talking like 18U AAA in the regionals or the the national champ, obviously trying to win there, right? Like trying to win and instilling all these good things, they can be done at the same time. And I would argue they should be done at the same time. And I know Tolf has done that with his teams. I know I've done that in my gym for 15 years, right? Like they can be done at the same time. It's a little bit harder, it takes a little more energy from the leaders in charge, but we need to just have better leaders at the helms of all of these organizations to not make it about, oh, we want to have 15 championships for our organization for you know the eight to nine to 10-year-olds. Like, no, stop. No, like, yes, if you win championships, that is awesome. But they should be a byproduct of the how you're doing things, the how you're doing things matters, and down the road, that's going to create the good people, the great the good citizens, the good family members, good fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, uh, leaders, employers, employees, all these things. It can be done, and you can still focus on playing to win, is a good thing, right? But it's not the end all be all that like parents need to be thinking about.

SPEAKER_00 36:19

Yeah. So it's currently like two of my mentors that I work with each week is this guy, Tim Bothrell, who's an NHL guy, and Wally Kozak, who's who was like the national, like win, you know, coach of the Canadian National Program and the Olympics and everything. And when I talk to these two gentlemen pretty much every week, you know, we have our little call and our talk, and and one of the things that they're trying to institute, which I thought was brilliant from Tim's point of view, is like, forget about hockey directors. These programs need ethical directors. Like the first one you need to hire is a is an ethical program director. And I think, you know, you know, even if you didn't listen, even if you didn't want your kids to be good doctors and lawyers and good citizens and good people later on, it doesn't even matter. Just be good people, good be a good nine-year-old that has that loves coming to the rink and loves leaving because they can't wait to come back again. Like that's all we should be doing. And instead, we're saying, no, no, we're establishing this player so that Topher's gonna see them at the the triple A summer meltdown in June, and he's gonna recruit and put them in his notepad, saying, Oh, in six years I'm gonna I'm gonna call that kid up. I mean it's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 37:26

We we judge coaches on wins and losses because that's easy to recognize. Easy, right? There's a win, there's a loss, it's black, it's white. I evaluate youth coaches on what you just said, Mike. Does the kid want to come to the ring for practice and can they and do they want to stay and not want to leave? Like that to me is the most important thing because at the end of the day, if you do want to play in a Michigan, you do want to play at at the highest levels. The number one thing that you need is a love of the game. That's it. It's the most important ingredient of every kid. Like, I I'm very fortunate. We I don't know, we have six six, seven first-round draft picks on our team at Michigan this year. Uh, coach kids at Cornell, Miami that have gone on to play in the NHL. The biggest consistency between all of them is they love hockey, they live it, they eat, breathe, sleep, whatever the saying is, like they just absolutely love it, right? So if your goal as a coach is to like, even if it's like a misguided goal of like I have to produce these NHL players or whatever, the best thing that you can do is not you know drills around cones and what like it's it's developing and fostering a love for the game, man. Like that's that like you look at the Crosby's, the McDavid's, like all these unbelievable hockey players. How much do they love the game? And when you love the game, you're gonna want to work harder at it. And when you work harder at it, you're gonna build better habits. And when you build better habits and you do those things consistently, you're gonna get better. And it all starts with a passion and a love for the game, right? So, like, that's how we need to evaluate coaches. And I don't know if maybe, maybe Vex, we need to develop and we could do this together with you guys, like, develop a metric of of like judging coaches. I mean, like, I mean, perceive for coaches, that could be a good idea. Give a questionnaire to like all the kids on the team. Give a questionnaire to all the freaking kids on the team and say, hey, like, how much do you enjoy practices? You know, how how did you get better this year? Yeah, how often do you do you feel like the coach cares about you? You know, was it a positive environment in the locker room? Well, here's the thing those things as coaches, the byproduct is gonna be better.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

The power player guys do do that. They they do a coaching survey at the end of the year for the parents, and it's really good because the problem is the coaches that don't send it out are the ones that need to send it out. Like if you're really good like me, I do a I do a like I do an exit survey with my kid, my parents all the time because I want to know. Give me the give me the works and all. Just tell me, Mike, you you really missed my kid this year. Like you just didn't, you know, find a way to motivate them. You know, that's great to know. Just why was that like you know, to your guy to over. We I used to watch a Sam Muskevich kid, the uh, you know, this kid here in New Pride of Newtown, Connecticut. And then when you when you watch these guys, they never like like when you hear a kid at the end of practice goes, Oh, is it over already? Like, like that's the like the greatest. That's the greatest part instead of you know what you used to like like when I did the hockey coaching clinics for USA hockey, like, uh, is this almost over? Like, oh my god, like are we gonna get out of here soon?

SPEAKER_03 40:32

Like when you hear that, you know you're just devastating you're not inspiring anybody.

SPEAKER_00 40:36

But when you hear a kid's like, oh my god, is this over already? Oh, that stinks. I'm like, oh, that was that's that's what you need to have. Now, now to your point, you've got to do that for 26 weeks. That's hard, it's a lot of work, but you can do it. And I think it's you know, it's just uh it's everybody's job to find ways to inspire coaches.

SPEAKER_03 40:55

That's why coaching is a calling, right? It's not just a job. And you know, the other thing, too, Topher, you just mentioned this too, is that uh, and we don't do this enough. You learn this podcasting, right? Great questions demand great answers, right? If you ask somebody a simple question, you know, you're gonna get a simple how was the season? It was great. You know, that you're not gonna get a great answer from that, right? Um, the same thing when you talk to your kids or you reprimand your kids, you're not supposed to say, Why did you do that? It's not a great question. You know what I mean? So I think that's something to do with. I want to reiterate what you talked about too, uh, Toph and Jeff. You say this all the time too. The love of the game is so important. We talk all the time on this show. You know, obviously around 12 to 15, there's some changes. You know, might get a little more serious about pursuing the sport. But I've always said anything prior to that, love of the game is your primary job as a coach is to help establish that or encourage that. Uh, and then beyond that, you know, obviously there's some skill sets. And then obviously there's a difference between competitiveness and competing. You know, teaching a kid to enjoy the competition is something you want to do, right? And and this is where, by the way, 90% of the anxiety starts for kids is did we win the game? What's the score? You get them focused on the wrong things, right? We want to teach them to be competitive within that arena. That not, you know, it's funny because we do say a lot, hey, the score doesn't matter, right? And I don't think that's complete. Like we need to be a little bit more fair for the kids. Hey, score doesn't matter in terms of your effort, right? Did you give everything you had today? Uh that's the score I'm keeping. You know, you say something like that to a kid, um, it makes a difference. I I remember too, last thing too, I'll keep moving this, is uh prior to podcasts, we had a thing called radio, talk radio, where they would interview people, and you know, if you caught it, you caught it. If you didn't, you didn't you didn't get to hear it again. But I was lucky enough as a kid uh to listen to Wayne Gretzky on uh like like you know a national broadcasting network, and a parent called in and said, Hey, can you tell my kid to practice more? Like he he really loves the game, and I just want to practice more. And Gretzky, being Gretzky, said prolifically, no, no, I cannot tell your kid to practice. If your kid wants to practice, they'll practice. And he said, I appreciate you saying the kid loves the game, but if they love the game, they'll just go do it. And I said, Wow, that's from coming from him, that's pretty important to hear, right? You can't inject that love of the game into somebody, but you can encourage it. And that's something I think that parents have to realize, especially parents who have played or currently play in an adult league, you can't take it out of your chest and put it in your kids' chest. It has to develop and you can encourage it, but don't force it.

SPEAKER_02 43:31

You know, I I had an amazing conversation with my dad about this because my dad was the one that introduced me to the game and helped me to fall in love with it. And and I was kind of asking him, like, because I'm obsessed with the game, I love it. Like, and I have for a very, very long time. And now that I have young kids of my own, I was kind of asking him because I was like, how cool would that be if my kids fell in love with hockey just like I did? So, what did you kind of do, you know, to do that? And it was just like simple. It was like, hey, have you asked them to like play shiny hockey in the basement? Right, you know, have have you, you know, like just like little things like that where you can bond with your kids just by having fun with the pressure off? Like, not only are you potentially developing a love for the game, but you're just developing a relationship. And Vex, you and I have talked about this. Like, how many parents don't talk to their kids anymore because their kids don't want to talk to them because they put too much pressure on them at 15, 16 years old, right? You know, and and so it's an all-encompassing thing, right? Like, we want to put our kids in situations where they can fall in love with it, and a lot of that, and Vex and I I'm sure you guys talk about this too. Like, the car ride home that can make your kid fall in love with the game, doesn't matter what the coach is doing to help, you know, like that's a that's an important thing. And so uh just with everything that you're talking about, man, like uh just creating a safe space where they can have fun with it is just so ungodly important. And especially as a parent, you want to develop a love and a kinship and a relationship with your kid. And the best way to do that is just in these unstructured things hey would you want to do it? No, okay, no problem, man. Or like, and then uh

SPEAKER_04 45:15

you hey you want to you want to go do this or what if i you know put a rink in the backyard is that something you'd want to do and then you like how many kids fell in love with the game in the backyard or on the pond with their dads or their uncles or their moms or whoever like by themselves yeah by themselves uh it's just it's and it's it's such an it's such an opportunity for coaches to impart such an important life lesson if you want to be good at anything it takes work if you want to be successful at anything it takes work if you're gonna have a family somebody has to pay the bills that takes work so like it's not it's not like I think people who are like the old school mindset and stuff like that they hear maybe some of this and think we're like soft and it's like come to my gym for a day tell me I'm soft absolutely not not at all you will get you'll get murdered six ways from Sunday right but everybody has a smile on their face everybody knows why they're there and why they're putting themselves through what they're putting themselves through because they know it's going to make them be better and that goes back to like what is the organization what is the team's core values so it's like yeah you said okay like we don't care what the score is for like the younger ages we care what the score is because that's indicative of are you performing? Are you trying? Are you teamwork? But so as coaches you don't say we don't care if you win or lose because that's not true. We all want to win and fostering a love and a passion for winning and wanting to be the best which will make everyone better at everything in their life needs to be done. But it's not you little effers win this game or else you're skating sideboards. And there's no dare tonight if you don't win right and there's seven like that that's where it's like no that's hurting them. It's you've got to get into their brain to teach them in fun ways how to compete why to compete when to compete all these different things and then also to be able to when you lose but you left it all out there and you gave your all like it's you're not happy that you lost ever right but you can at least accept it learn from it and then try to adapt and apply later.

SPEAKER_03 47:27

You know Jeff what was cool I'll tell you a quick story is um you know we do this team building with our our Mike kids all year and they were in a championship game this uh last last weekend and we had this really great moment before the game we had a team talk you know I walked in and I said hey who's nervous and I put my hand up and all the kids kind of looked at me and they put their hands up. I said yeah no it's good it means you care right and I said that you know you that that feeling never really goes away you just kind of understand how to compartmentalize it and use it. But I said yeah guys that's good that you're feeling that way so I I saw him relax a little bit and I said look there's really only two things we need to know today for this championship game. And I said I said this to him all your keep in mind this is mites we don't keep scores and now we do. Now the score matters today right and I said there's two things you need to know. Number one, no matter what the score is at the end of the game you all need to know that you did everything you could to compete and try and win the game. Win or lose you have to know you did everything. And I said the second thing is you have to know that you did everything you could for your teammates as well that you played for the people in the room. I said you do those two things you're not gonna have any problems right and and they understood that at seven eight nine years old right and I think these are the important things what does that translate for them in 10 years that they have an understanding of that now right that's the seed I'm planning.

SPEAKER_00 48:47

You know it's it's again we won the tournament but it's that to me that was irrelevant it's they understood they applied it right go ahead but there but there's two things right and I think this is where I this is where kind of my mind goes to it and probably shouldn't like that was great but they lose that like they now but the season's over then they lose it like those kids lose that mentorship they lose that messaging they lose that that that the ability forget about level didn't make this team didn't make that team they that the what we're doing at the youth level is we're good the way we're structured is we're cutting that off and we're hoping to God the next person they get has some semblance of a similar like philosophy or else it it it just changes the way the kids are and I think and watching the hockey think tank guys like one of the things I've learned over the last I guess 2018 that's a long time is that high performance training and competitive edge and wanting to beat somebody up doesn't mean not fun. And I think everybody looks at like oh no no no and I joke around with my little kids I do all the little NHL learn the players right and I'm just I kind of I kind of joke around like well if you're smiling you can't be in this group because it's just way too much fun. Like if you're having fun and laughing and giggling you can't be here because that's what the hockey doesn't look like zero fun certain zero fun. And I but I think this is where I think when I watch you guys and and the messaging you give is and maybe Topher you could mention this because you're in it right now. How much fun I I watch Nerado and all his like how much fun do you guys have in practice every day? Like how much how much fun is there every time those kids step on the ice men getting prepared to battle and I would say to Jeff's point they ain't soft.

SPEAKER_02 50:27

But I I will tell you that our best practices are typically the ones where there's a lot of small games being played and I can tell you that we keep track of our small area games wins and losses for each kid and we put it on a board that they can see and they live for it. They absolutely live for it and I'm the one that that's kind of the keeper of it and enter all the information and stuff and like after each one you're gonna get that on there right you get that on there right you know and every once in a while we'll do like a game where hey guys this game's worth two points you know this game's worth three points and like just the the yeah it's like pure man like it's just pure unadulterated fun but there is that like competitive like it's it's competitive and it's fun it at the same time and you know like I I think even at the youngest of ages like races are awesome. And if you're a coach of mites you can you can you can manipulate the the drills where kids of equal talent are kind of going against each other so it's not the same kid be you know the the kid who's the top one going against the bottom one that's never going to win because that's not fun for either of them either right and so like races and and games with scores and like all that stuff that's it's fun and and and like sometimes and and we have to clarify it right Vex like you kind of did already like when we talk about like um skills or we talk about you know life skills and things like that people can think that that's soft no no no no no no competitiveness is like part of the fun it's part of it and it's winners want to compete.

SPEAKER_04 52:16

Winners want to compete I literally had a guy in the gym if you guys looked at my Instagram story right now from like a few hours ago uh I had a kid in who's a new client who had shoulder surgery this year and he's coming to me after to start getting back in shape and um he's a very very good local triple A goalie and we were competing in between sets on different things that he can can can can do and I obviously beat him and I talked smack to him on Instagram like yeah that's right buddy he says I obviously beat him yeah obviously well he's got he's got a bum shoulder still so he can't do too much of taking down and I'm chirping him because like I I know that he's and and then I texted him an hour after he left the gym hey you know great day really proud of you by the way one nothing just so you know he's like oh I can't wait till Friday he's like I'm gonna get you know so now he's excited to come back he wants to have fun he's gonna push himself he's gonna practice what we're doing at home competing because he's gonna want to come back in and beat me and and you know so it's like it's fostering that kind of love. And I I think where where you guys are talking about where it like gets off the rails like Mike said oh like I'm doing this but what if the coach after me isn't doing this that's where you have to have a rubric. You have to have a concrete set of core values that is hammered home by your organization leaders, your your coaching leaders and your coaches and it's like are you did you focus on this this month? Monthly meeting it could be 10 minutes. Hey did you focus on this this month did you focus on our five core values whatever they are 10 core values shouldn't be like a crazy amount right and and if you're not okay well like why not let's let's figure out a way to help you know coach Tom get this into his practice plan into his pregame pep talk like that's the stuff that it needs to be going on especially at the youngest levels but it should continue all the way through you know up until up until college even well and it's support your coaches like that's like watching like okay so if you're listening to this you don't get to see both uh you know Topher and Jeff right but you're when you're talking about the games Topher like you're smiling you're energy you're you're happy you're like I look at these coaches like you look miserable on the ice well the kids can't do the drill they suck at this and they can't do they go no no no no because it's a bad drill the bad drill and the kids are miserable like you're all miserable like the bad drill or they don't have the skill to complete it so they win the regression like don't you want to go to the game and be like oh you're winning you're losing like the best thing like I for the last four years I start all my prep my youth hockey practices with a small area game it doesn't start without a small area game and the kids come on and within 15 minutes or 12 minutes of our practice kids like are grinding or are are are complaining about the score or you know they're beating each other up they're battling for pups they're like they're really warmed up and ready and they're energized and they have and they have like emotion and it's so much easier for me to have practice because then I can put in the the the block drill and have to get in there or the you know the drill and like oh I really don't want to do this but they really do need to work on this particular skill.

SPEAKER_00 55:18

And you know the one of the worst things I I the things I hate the most when I hear a coach oh yeah we don't small air games we throw them in right at the end for it to some have a little fun. 60 minutes like the 60 minutes aren't fun like make make practices so much fun that you can't believe it's over you can't believe how much fun it was and you can't wait to create and and compete again. But again it goes back to it to everything it's it's cradle to grave, right? You need to have you need to have an organization and be a part of organization that embraces the fact that they want good ethical coaches that are prepared and and thoughtful and care about their athletes and not the guys that say hey I I picked these 15 kids I can't wait to cut seven of them in the next you know four months so I can get a different six. And I think that's and that's where we're at.

SPEAKER_04 56:06

Even below juniors I mean you know obviously if it's tournaments or if it's like must-win games like yeah you have to play to win but also like the I think that's the triple A level maybe starting at 15 16 and and still the majority of the games I still believe that it's youth hockey people are paying tens of thousands of dollars like you should be developing every player as much as you can that doesn't mean everything has to be even Steven they've got to earn it you know it doesn't mean guys don't get sat like it's still the same thing but it should be like development should be the main goal because you know I've seen teams here in St. Louis that make it to national championship and a few years later there's only three kids left playing that's like you made it to a national championship and only three kids went on to juniors or four kids are going to college off a national championship team like how why okay you must not have been preparing them you you you you playing to win you weren't preparing everybody so even though that team like had some high end skill they also had a bunch of guys that should still be playing and they're not because they weren't prepared because you just rode the coattails of the six best players you know and to me like that's not a win you got to the nationals great that's not a win for me when all those guys don't have the opportunity to move on like they should have the ones who were good enough.

SPEAKER_03 57:28

You know Jeff I've been saying for a while now that when your ego or desire to win championships trumps your desire to develop a player you are not a coach anymore. Yeah you've lost that title no matter how many wins you have um you know and and we need to keep eyes on that and you know Mike brought it up too you know the the um the coaches site did that great hockey factories uh publication and they talked about how Mike used to this all the time how these coaches will stay with the team for three years, three seasons and develop them and hand them off to another coach who he talks to regularly to understand the kind of development model. And this is where kids are coming out of this is where pro players are starting to come out of is these environments. Guys I do want to end the show talking about culture but I I did want to bring up this one point you tofer you mentioned this before um I always like to give the audience some kind of action items or some red flags or just something they can can grab onto and you talked about um kind of the car ride home right we we talked we talked on the show we had an episode called the car ride home is not for coaching. But what are some of the things this is for both of you what are some of the things that parents say and I'm kind of looking for more specific statements that they probably don't realize adds a lot of pressure on their kids or maybe more importantly what don't they say right to their kids um because I think it's important you know we we all care so much about our kids. I don't I don't believe anyone listening to this show doesn't love their kids immensely right but I we we we're all guilty of it at times of saying certain things that just add more pressure than we need to. So again what are those things what do you think they are what what are some of the things we don't hear enough?

SPEAKER_04 59:05

I think that it should be Tove says this all the time it's more like asking earnest questions like ask questions not why did you make that play or or yelling at them like you made that play oh you should have done that or why aren't you on the power play and little Johnny is like those are the types of things like that that's not doing anything. Did you have fun? Did you work hard? Like like those kind of things how do you think you played like that was the only question my parents ever asked me did you did you have fun? Did you work as hard as you could how do you think you played and if I wanted to talk about hockey I would talk about hockey and if I didn't I would quickly answer the question and I would change topics and they rolled with the punches you know it's it's the players who I always saw who was like parents you know like the kid was like not excited to walk out of the locker room because of what the car ride home was going to be or what their dad was going to say you know when they walked up to him right away just picking apart their game you know it's it's it's unnecessary there's a better way to do it if you're if you're thinking this I'm doing this to help him you're not most likely 99% there's a better way read a psychology book you're helping yourself really right you're not you're appeasing yourself.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:15

Go ahead to um I I think you know Jeff you hit the nail on the head with one thing well on everything obviously because you always do not a big deal the the one thing that I I think um i is a really bad thing that parents do is make excuses when you make excuses your kids will make excuses and if you're an excuse maker then you're not gonna amount to much in in life because you're always gonna be blaming other people. So it's like you know little Johnny you should be uh getting this or you should be on the power play or should should should whatever the coach doesn't like you yada yada yada like you you can't be an excuse machine if your kid becomes an excuse machine then that's all that they're gonna do and and like ownership is one of the most important characteristics of any successful person like accountability and ownership in what you do and when you make excuses for your kid or your kid is making excuses for why they didn't get this or that or the other thing then they're doomed.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:17

They're absolutely doomed I I I love this I want to combine your two answers real quick because Toper what you're talking about is directly what Jeff said you create that accountability and ownership by asking great questions right you don't say well if that kid passed the puck you would have got the goal you say how can you inspire your teammate maybe to to to find ways to pass to you more or did you do it did you yell for the puck right like what something you could have done yeah always always look in the mirror you could have probably done something better think about what it was how could you have positively affected any situation any situation even if it's if it's one percent of a positive effect that is a positive effect right and it and it teaches it too it teaches those kids as you said Toba now they're asking those questions of themselves they're not blaming anybody else oh coach didn't pick me that coach must suck no no what did you not do to prepare or or how are we going to take this negative experience and turn it into a power later on so Tobra I cut you off go ahead buddy I'm sorry I know you had more there no no it's all good yeah I I think when you're talking about the car ride home I think honestly the best thing that you can say is man I just loved watching you play today.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:24

Right looked like you were really enjoying yourself that's what I want for you and John Brooks that was he wrote a whole article on this I don't know how many years ago but it was incredible and it's the biggest thing that you can like I just loved watching you play. On the other hand and it it's really funny because you know we talk about this stuff and now I'm a parent I'm actually in a parent shoes and we had our little Paigey in soccer this summer or last summer and she just wasn't into it man. Like just like you know you're not supposed to change on the fly in soccer and she's changing on the fly and she much rather be eating snacks on the sideline than going for the loose balls and all that kind of stuff which is like as a coach you kind of sit there and you cringe a little bit but then you kind of got to put your parent head on and be like okay blah blah blah I I do think when you get to older ages and and and I think this is a a conversation that probably needs to be had more between a parent and a kid when you do get a little bit older especially in hockey when the cost is what it is we have I don't know if we're the most expensive sport but we gotta be pretty close if if we're not hey I don't really see you giving you all out there you know and I I sacrifice a lot of time I sacrifice a lot of money um because I want you to love what you do and I want you to be happy with what you do. If maybe this is a triple A player let's say we're talking about do you really love it? Is this something you really want to do? And they might say yeah and it's a little bit of an eye opener for them or it might be like nah dad or no mom like I just kind of want to have fun doing this and I'd rather play house league or I'd rather play whatever. And and I think that's that's an honest okay great conversation that you can have with your kid because at the end of the day like we shouldn't want our kid to be an NHL player. We should want our kid to like enjoy what they do and be happy at the end of the day because such a minuscule amount of percent of people actually play at the highest of levels right so um I would encourage parents because like that's another thing that like you want your kids to like work hard. You know that's a that's a value that we want to instill in our kids. We want them to be good teammates and if we see them not doing that then it's like hey is this something you really want to do because this is what I'm seeing and this is not what kind of experience I want for you and you should want for yourself and I think it's okay to have that conversation too if that makes any sense.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:05

It does you know you know I I think about we talk about like fears all the time as parents and you know obviously we want our chick our kids I want my kid to have the desire to work hard but I think a bigger fear of mine is if my my son or daughter ever come to me and and you know are afraid to tell me that they don't want to do it.

unknown 1:05:26

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:26

And it's not because of the hard work it's not because of the effort. It's they don't want to do it and they're terrified to tell me because they think it's gonna disappoint me. That that's a fear of mine. Right. And I think about that all the time of like you know um I was it's you know what your kid's thinking about after the game yeah maybe the game maybe the forecheck she's thinking about Fortnite she's not thinking about the game you know you're thinking about the game. So it's like I always got to check myself and that one of the reasons I love being on the show because I'm the youngest hockey parent on the show is it keeps me in check because I'm a pretty intense person. Right. And it's like I can't I can't put that on my kids right now. They just have to enjoy the game. Top I think it's a great answer. Um I wanna I want to move on guys to the to the culture part of this and I'm gonna phrase this question because everyone listening if you listen to either of these podcasts you know we're big culture people you know that's a big part of our success and what we believe is a part of success of any team. But I always like to ask this question have you ever been part of a championship team or a very successful team where that culture didn't exist and adversely on the teams where you had bad culture how did they do no I've never won on a bad culture team and every team that sucked had bad culture and every team that won had great culture.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:42

Every single one of them you're saying there's a correlation yeah 100% correlation while you math people I'll go a step further it's causation not correlation. It's causation look at that guy not a big deal big red big red education stupid Ivy League people trust me if you see my grades and statistics that was like the one thing I took from that keep using it.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:06

So so my follow up question then is why don't we spend more time developing culture if it's an obvious proven method for success?

unknown 1:07:15

I mean

SPEAKER_02 1:07:15

I mean, I it kind of goes back to the winning versus losing in the development, right? Like culture, you it's very it's not black and white. Culture is all about the gray. I mean, it is black and white in certain aspects, but like you you you can't quantify it. I mean, I'm sure there's people who are much smarter than us that have put together, you know, these kinds of Venn diagrams or something. Um but it culture to me is more of a feeling, you know. It's it's and it's hard to like define, it's hard to it takes a lot of work, and that's another thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:54

It's different for every team, too.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:55

It's different for every team, and that's another thing is like I I don't think people, it's just so much work to have a great culture, it's so much work, and it's an everyday thing. Your culture is getting better or getting worse every single day, based upon uh a lot of different things, how people treat each other, what kind of values you have, what kind of accountability structures you have within your group. Like there's so many different things that go into it, and um, you know, the the people side of things is is just it's hard to quantify. And and because of that, I I you know, I I think it's becoming something people are starting to work more at, but we we still got a long, as you know, Lee. Like, we still got a long way to go, man. A long way to go.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:38

Yeah, it has it has to be like Tove said, it's something that it if somebody stops driving, the sh the ship, you know, it goes awry. It goes the the uh the wrong way to start taking turns. It's something that literally has to be focused on every single day, and it starts with leadership, and that's you know, with team with a team, it starts with the coach and you know the captains, the leaders, um, and and getting everyone in line to enjoy the culture, to want to be there, to follow the culture, to to uh uh keep that culture going when they're gone, right? It's it's massively important, and that's what's hard is that it takes work to keep it going in the right direction because you're gonna have good days, you're gonna have bad days. And on the bad days, that's when you have to like lean on the culture, and it's easy to like not do those hard things on the bad days, but like those are what get you back to the good days, those what get you to a winning uh uh season, winning a winning organization, winning team, um, you know, and people doing the right things and in the hard times, both in hockey and in life. So it's just something that's it's always always has to be perpetuated every single day, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:51

And and I I think the other oh, sorry, Lee, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:53

No, no, please go ahead. You're the guest.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:55

I was just gonna say, like with with culture, I I feel like there's this misnomer out there that like when you work on culture, it's like trust falls, you know, and and like it's this like lovey dovey we went to dinner tonight. You know, um culture could be simple as like, hey, let's spend 15 minutes to define our identity today, right? Right. That's it, you know, and then you check back in every couple of weeks. Okay, how are we doing to in in playing to our identity? Um, it could be as simple as, hey, you know, let's make let's get a team lunch in today, you know, let's let's all go to lunch at the same spot and we'll we'll get everybody there. And in in the like the youth realm of it, it could be like, hey, let's organize a shiny hockey tournament. Hey, let's organize a team dinner, hey, let's let's all get together around the TV and watch the Blackhawks game or the Red Wings game or the Flyers game, you know, like um that's team building right now. It it's it's it's simple but not easy, right? Simple but not easy, like some of these little things can go a long way. You just got to put some intentionality into it, put a little planning behind it, and it's not like I and I hate how like these companies they like team team building and culture building, they bring somebody in for a day, right? Oh, and you do this day-long seminar, and it's kind of like something that just checks a box off. Like, that's not culture building. Culture building is built every single day, and now you can bring somebody in to like you know help you put some structures and put some things together that you can carry on for the rest of the year, but at the end of the day, like it's a living, breathing organism that gets better or worse, and based upon the work that you put into it every day, it doesn't need to be this crazy big thing. It's it's the little things that really make the culture great.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:46

And and I think it's the consistency uh in especially at the youth level, right? If you go to a prep school or a college or you're on a a pro team, I mean you have the you know, you have the the advantage of when a player comes in, like you have other people are saying, no, no, we do it this way here. Like this is our way, this is the way we do it, right? So and and and and when you want to and think about it at the pro level, how hard it is to change culture because one person can't change it. It has to be the group. And I think like little things, like I know when my teams and my parents would think I was crazy. I'm like, well, our cult we we do have a culture, like we don't leave locker rooms dirty, we clean, we leave them cleaner than when we found them, we don't swear at the official, we don't, you know, not pick up pox after practice. Like that we the the things the the little things you can establish, and then you start building accountability, and then you start building that that culture in your program. But you know, Jeff said it earlier, you can't do it when you have turnover every six months. You if you have a program that turns over six months, it it it's that's why culture is hard. Culture is so hard. People are like, I don't care about culture, I just need the best 15 kids, I'm gonna go win hockey games and then move on. But but the the onus is on us as youth hockey uh organizers and and and directors and and administrators is to build the culture first and then plug people in that want to follow that culture. You don't want to be in this culture. There's a million different programs you can go to, but where where these are our core values and this is who we're gonna be. And and it is not easy. I'm not and I think we all lived it, right? It's like like and I think that's where people get beaten down. But the people that can do it and the people that can find, you know, people that are gonna around them that are gonna support them and find a way to, you know, and and I guess the last thing I would say is if you're in a program, don't be the one person like you don't need to be the culture keeper. You need to spread out all like you need somebody to oversee this and somebody to oversee that and somebody to oversee that. Find people that have common values to you, put them to work, and then come back in and be accountable together. And I think that's like I I used to love getting as many parents like in my group as possible on my teams. I'm like, listen, when we go down, we're all going down. Like we're all gonna either lift the ship up or we're gonna lift or we're gonna bury ourselves. But because we're all involved, whether you're a scorekeeper, working on lunch, doing team breakfast, doing the community service award, doing whatever it is, we're all we all in it together and we're all doing our part. And you know who never lasted on those teams? The dad that would go out in the parking lot and have you know shoot down six beers during practice and bitch and moan.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:15

No, the the guy that ranks the ranks all the players one through five on their skill level.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:20

But then the other day, that was but that's okay because you could fight that person because you have a you have enough you have a stronger team, you know, around you. But it's again at the Topher's point, it it is so hard. It's always hard talking about it because like, oh my god, you have PTSD from trying to do it.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:36

Well, you you know my you know the word I use Topher uh all the time when I describe coach, I said it needs to be nurtured. I said it and I use that word intentionally, right? And you can equate it, you have you have a young kid, right? Like you don't just be like, hey, hey, go walk. You know, hey, get up and walk already, learn how to walk. Like we don't do that with our kids. We nurture them, we encourage them, you know, we grow. And and you know, to be fair, within a team, and if we're talking Utah, there's so many cultures within the culture. There's the coaching culture, there's the players culture, there's the D, there's the O's, there's the parents, right? You know, you get up to the higher levels, there's staff, right? And then they all be part of a larger culture. And the reason I ask this question, this this one's kind of like a rhetorical question, and you know, for the audience for ourselves. If we're all agreeing that strong cultures are a path to winning, why would we not spend more time on that? Especially if we're using the black and white rubric of wins and losses. And and I think that you know, the four of us, uh, you know, our combined missions, you know, we kind of run together in that space because it's all something we really believe in. Uh, and something we've all found success with. And again, it's not not the easiest thing to do. I do agree with that. And I think that's why that you know, you want to find the right people that can help to cultivate that. And again, Tover to your point, it doesn't have to be six hours a day, it can be a 15-minute thing every few days to kind of reinforce it. We talked about trust before, like, what does trust mean on this team? But I I am as a as a coach, if someone told me that every single successful team has this thing, I would pursue getting good at that thing because it's important, right? Jeff, you didn't you didn't lose a beat when I asked it, Jeff. You're like, yes, every great team I put on has had a great one.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:23

Yeah, but I I think the best lessons, you know, I had this said to me when I went on a uh a podcast called the Dad Edge Podcast, and it's something that's stuck with me ever since. He said the best lessons for kids uh are caught, not taught. And so the reason why it's probably hard is a lot of the coaches, organization leaders, board members, they don't walk the walk, they don't live a disciplined life, they don't care about culture. Some of them aren't in it for the right reasons, they're literally only there for their kid, and they could care less what happens to any other. Not all, obviously, right? But far too many. And so they're not walking the walk, they're they're not living it. So, you know, they could okay. Oh, we're gonna have a culture uh video. It's like you know, you get a substitute teacher and she says to watch the video, and everybody's like, free day, you know, nobody's paying attention. You see a you see a culture video, to be fair. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:20

Not substitute teacher. No, no, I'm saying the kids are the education system, Jeffrey.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:24

Yeah, totally. But it's you know, you got you got a coach talking about being healthy all the time and eating healthy food, and every single road trip, they're blacked out in the bar when the kids are walking through to go to the room, right? Like, you know, you are an adult. This is a free country, you're allowed to do what you do, but should you be doing that? Are you setting a good example? You're you're a mentor to all these kids and you're hammered every it's not once, it's every trip. And there's a lot of coaches out there like that. Like you wonder why your team doesn't win, look in the mirror. And too many people don't want to do that, unfortunately. So I think if a lot of people in leadership positions in our country too, uh uh, you know, also need to start looking in the mirror and be like, start walking the walk here, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:18:11

And look, I'll I'll just follow up. It starts with us as individuals doing it personally, right? Yeah. Um, and this goes back to the accountability piece. We can all point the fingers in Jeff, you're not doing that. I'm just saying, you want to have an impact, start with yourself. Yeah. Teach your kids to be good people. That's how you have an impact. If you're a coach, you get the opportunity to do that with many kids. And you're right. If you're not, if you're doing that the negative way, you're in you're gonna increase their chance of being negative. So, guys, this has been uh fantastic. I really appreciate you guys coming on. We could talk all night, but uh Toph, I know you got a young kid and I could see it on your face, and I do too. So I'm just I'm I'm teasing it.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:47

What does that mean?

SPEAKER_03 1:18:48

You know exactly what it means. He's got RBF.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:51

Oh resting B face.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:53

No, I'm just kidding, Tob. No, that's just that's that was that was that that looked kinder the way you did that. That was weird. Um, I'm just kidding, Tob. I I I always joke with people. Uh, you know, when you haven't slept for two or three years, it has uh hasn't a five years, I think. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:10

Six next month.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:11

Six, yeah. Hey, hey, congratulations for that. Mike, I don't know how many years it's been for you, but I know we're both wearing hats, so that means something.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:17

Um I don't I don't sleep anymore, but that's I just it's I think it's uh no, it's uh it's it's great having you guys on here. And I think you know, just uh you know, I know um you know, just following your progression in in with the way you're speaking about all these different levels of hockey. It's not just youth hockey, but and and the other pieces are great, you know, the nutritional part and the workout part. And you know, I definitely, you know, Jeff's your uh your Instagram stories are great. And I think it's like you know, really fun to watch the interaction you have with the kids you work with and and and the and and the adults, you know. But anytime they're in the gym, you know, it looks like a pretty, a pretty fun environment to be in. And I think that's you know, that's kind of the playground we should be making for all our all every time we we work with our athletes, I would hope.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:00

I appreciate that. That's my goal, guys. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:03

Well, you're doing you're listening to the very handsome and awake Topher Scott. Not a big deal, Jeff Lovecchio and and uh Mr. Coach Mike Venelli. I'm Lealize. We've been listening to our kids play hockey. If for some reason you've been under a rock, you never heard of the hockey think tank podcast, make sure you go check that out. It is absolutely recommended listening uh if you listen to this show. Um, but you guys really are making huge impact in the hockey world. And I just want to say as a hockey parent, not just as a podcast host, I really appreciate you guys and the work that you do.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:35

Thanks, brother. Appreciate having keep up a great go ahead, Vex. Yeah, we're just talking over each other.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:41

We we never guessed. Is this our first time guesting at the same time on somebody else's?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:46

No, I don't think so. I think we've done it before. I would have been honored with that. It's definitely been a while, though. Like years.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:52

First time this decade. Yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:54

Yeah, maybe.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:55

We appreciate it, man. Thank you so much. Keep doing what you guys are doing. Thanks, brother.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:59

Well, if you want this episode or any other episode we've ever done, check it out. Our kidsplayhockey.com or any of the podcast providers were everywhere. Uh, but we're gonna get you out of here. Thanks everybody for listening. Have a great week, and we'll see you next time on our kids play hockey. We hope you enjoyed this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or our website, our kidsplayhockey.com. Also, make sure to check out our children's book, When Hockey Stops, at WhenHockeystops.com. It's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much for listening to this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey, and we'll see you on the next episode.