Nov. 4, 2023

Unraveling Mental Toughness in Hockey and Goaltending with Justin Goldman of The Goalie Guild

What if you could peek behind the mask of a professional hockey goalie and dive into the mental challenges and toughness required to play the sport and position? Justin Goldman’s experiences range from playing as an e-bug for the Colorado Avalanche to creating an inspiring online community for goalies - the Goalie Guild.

Serving more than just a peek into his fascinating journey, Justin shares his wisdom and knowledge through establishing the Goalie Guild's unique digital platform. We uncover how he leveraged online tools to make the site transparent and user-friendly. We also dive into the concept of autonomous support coaching, an approach that encourages athletes to problem solve, fostering resilience and independence.

But the conversation doesn’t stop at the rink as we shift gears to examine the impact of technology on youth and parenting, emphasizing the importance of children's independence and presence. We also shed light on the crucial issue of mental health in sports, discussing 'Lift the Mask,' a program Justin created to offer support to goaltenders struggling with mental health. This episode is a must-listen for not just hockey enthusiasts, but anyone interested in sports psychology and the power of community. Tune in for an enriching and insightful conversation with Justin Goldman.

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00:52 - Conversation With Justin Goldman

08:50 - Creating Goalie Guild's Unique Digital Platform

17:18 - The Importance of Autonomous Supportive Coaching

29:26 - Coping With Pressure as a Goalie

34:27 - The Importance of Goaltender Development

37:36 - VR's Impact on Goalie Understanding

50:13 - Impact of Technology on Parenting and Youth

58:12 - 'Lift the Mask' Mental Health Program

01:08:03 - Goalie Mental Health Stigma Breakthrough

01:12:23 - NHL Goalies' Mental Health Journeys

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Our guest today has done a lot in hockey from writing about the game to broadcasting about the game, to being an e-bug with the Colorado Avalanche all the way through their cup run, and he's also created one of the greatest communities I think I've ever seen online in the goalie guild, both socially, but also the website which we talk about today.

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Justin Goldman joins us today and this guy has dedicated his life to the game, specifically goal tending.

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But don't worry, remember, as always, with our kids, play goalie.

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If you're not a goalie parent, a goalie mom, a goalie dad or a goalie to begin with, you're still gonna get a ton of value out of this episode because we dive into everything today, from the mentality you need to have to be playing the sport, how to leave your kids alone and kind of be isolated so they can learn on their own.

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Really, really important episode today that we've enjoyed and, as always, it's that time we gotta let you know that if you're a fan of this show, you get a nice discount on hockey wrap around com using the code ok ph.

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But without further ado, let's get to the episode with Justin Goldman on our kids play goalie.

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Hello hockey friends and families around the world and welcome to another episode of our kids play goalie.

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I'm leo lias, with Mike Benelli, and our guest today.

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Justin Goldman has dedicated his life to hockey and goal tending and has a resume to back it up when I say that I'm not kidding.

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Let me give you just the highlights.

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He started working in professional hockey in 2003 with the Colorado Eagles as a junior scout and reporter, before graduating from Colorado state CSU with a degree in technical journalism.

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From there, he worked in several media roles with the Colorado Avalanche that's an NHL team on the airwaves and in publication.

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In 2011, he joined NHLcom as one of their first goalie specific writers, before being hired by USA hockey in 2012 as a regional goalie scout for the national team development program.

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In 2016, he was selected as the e-bug for the Colorado Avalanche, a role he held through their Stanley Cup winning season in 2022.

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In 2020, he was selected for the goalie advisory board for Sense Arena VR, which is a groundbreaking technology that I can almost guarantee many of you with younger kids that you will see them use this, whether they're a goalie or not, before they graduate high school.

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As I said, there's a lot more experiences I could list, but perhaps the most important and impactful is this next one.

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In 2009, justin created the goalie guild, which today is a nonprofit foundation dedicated to supporting the global goal tending community.

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The guild offers a wide range of education resources and financial aid.

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This also includes scholarships, books, research and their lift the mass program, which is something we're going to dive into today.

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They also provide the goalie community with services like consulting, mentoring and their annual retreats.

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It is a groundbreaking community that also focuses on the mental fitness of goal tenders, which is proven in print, as Justin has authored many books, including the one I have here with me in my hand the power within discovering the path to elite goal tending.

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There's a part two out there as well, and I'm looking forward to reading.

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Justin, I'm not gonna lie to you, this is the longest intro I think I've ever written, but I had to do it.

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It was worth it.

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Welcome to our kids play goalie.

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Thank you so much for having me and I appreciate the awesome intro and it's just.

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It's been a ride, my friend, it's been a ride and I still got a lot in the gas tank, so just excited, always looking forward to the future and whatever comes next.

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But thank you so much for having me oh, it's our pleasure to have you.

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It's funny just when I put these intros together.

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Sometimes they're short, you know, it depends on on who we're talking about.

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But as I read through all of your stuff, your bios, and you know, again, we do research on this stuff there's just so much great stuff to mention.

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You know, I love hockey lifers I consider myself to be one.

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Mike would too, you know, and it takes the same level of passion to get involved in the game and the ways that you have that takes to make the NHL.

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I think, and I think that you know, when you look at the numbers of people that work in journalism and nonprofits and media, I think it's similar to, in quote-unquote, making it as the NHL.

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But anyone can do it.

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But before we dive into all that because and we are gonna dive in all that one thing I would gotta ask you every goalie has got a story about how they got between the pipes, where you've all been told to play goalie, or did you naturally flock into that position?

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I naturally flocked in the position and it's funny because my my background in goal-tending and hockey is very non-traditional.

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I grew up on a horse ranch, basically in the middle of nowhere, like 45 minutes north of Dallas, texas.

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So well, hockey hockey was legitimately not a thing in my life, right?

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I didn't know the sport existed until I was 10, 11 years old, and besides watching hockey a few times on ESPN, I didn't get introduced to the sport full time until the Minnesota North Stars relocated to Dallas in 1993.

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So I was 11 years old at the time and I just remember me and, like my best friend in grade school at the time, we were just so pumped that there was like a new sports team and a new sport to really dig into.

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And we went to one of the very first team practices for the stars and they were just trying to build a fan base, so it was open to the public and they're plastered against the glass at Dr Pepper's Star Center Valley Ranch.

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And, sure enough, first two players on the ice are goalies and those first two goalies were Darcy Wachaluck and Andy Mogue.

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And Darcy Wachaluck at the time was wearing this like the sickest all black and green gear, setup right, and he didn't take two strides on the ice and as soon as I saw that, I was like, oh my god, I'm hooked.

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Like this is this looks amazing like um with a lot of kids.

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You know, you have a big imagination.

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I was always obsessed with like medieval knights and medieval history and medieval lore and when I saw Wachaluck hit the ice I was just like that, that's a knight in in armor, like that, that connection um between goalies and medieval knights and like being a warrior.

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I just I fell in love with it at that moment and that's the only thing I wanted to do and basically the only thing I have done ever since.

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Justin, I consider myself to be a geek who likes sports, kind of like you just admitted to, and I'll tell you there was a game this is a throwback mic, I don't even know if you remember this and an hl 98 it's by esports had one of the greatest openings in the history of video games and sports and I will never forget.

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One of the phrases was are you afraid of the masked man?

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Right, and they had Felix Potvin on there just staring at you and I again, I was never a goalie, but I remember that was the coolest thing I thought I had ever seen in my life, right?

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Um, for another episode in the future, we'll also talk about how you know you were born in the south and, hey, guess what?

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You're hockey obsessed, because just proving that, regionally, it does not matter where you're from, you can fall in love with this game, which is an argument we have sometimes with people from the northern quarter.

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But again, another episode, that's.

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That's not what we're going today.

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Um, I want to dive right into the goalie guild.

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Um, because it is an amazing platform.

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Um, why don't we start from just how you developed it, because it wasn't what it is today?

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you know, back when you created it and just quickly the evolution of it, because it it's really grown yeah, I think the goalie guild was born out of my own experiences growing up again in a non-traditional hockey market.

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So I was all self-taught.

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I didn't have a goalie coach in grade school.

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I didn't have someone um, um, uh, holding my hand the entire time learning how to skate or learning how to get comfortable on my edges or wearing the gear, anything like that, and my parents were amazingly supportive, but they were passive supportive right, they didn't play hockey.

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So I was really the first in our family to kind of take on this journey of wanting to be a goalie.

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So growing up, it was always very obvious to me that there was like a shortage of of resources and goalie coaches, especially again in the south.

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And so I think, just growing up and and getting older and continuing to build this passion for goal tending, it was like wow, there's so many other kids like me that would love to play this position but don't necessarily have the support from the family or the associations or people around them.

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So how can I help alleviate some of these obstacles, some of these challenges that I know goalies are facing, because I'm experiencing at first hand?

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So I think ever since I was really young like I can't even remember in high school just wanting to go out and help the junior stars goalies that were a little bit younger than me and wanting to try and find a goalie coach in the DFW area, which was like finding a needle in the haystack.

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So for me, I think it was just mostly born out of my own personal experiences that like this is an amazing position.

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The game has given me so much.

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Um, how can I give back?

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How can I help other goalies overcome?

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A lot of the challenges and obstacles that I faced and and that's really where the the genesis point of the goalie guild came from you know, what's amazing too, justin, is when you go to this.

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Um, you know and I've followed you on instagram for a long time but when I actually went to the website, um, it's a different experience.

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Like you know, most of the time when you go to a website, you're expecting to scroll here's all the information, here's how you can do this.

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Yours is not like that.

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I mean, you get there and it's like hey, here's resources.

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Immediately like where do you want to go?

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Right, what do you want to select on?

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So I plodged you for that, because it's almost immediate value.

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Um, you know, it doesn't look like a landing page where it's like click here to sign up now and you, too, can be part of the goalie guild.

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Like that's not what it is.

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Right, there's a clear drive to like how can we help you today, right?

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Um, I really love that uh aspect of it.

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Is that something that you knew you wanted to do immediately?

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Did you want to be different or did it just evolve that way?

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it's so funny because I actually spent this past summer redeveloping the entire goalie guild online experience and it was exactly what you said.

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Like I'm.

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I mean, don't get me wrong, I love fast action, high-paced goalie websites and a lot of action and a lot of cool imagery and stuff, but, um, that's not what the goalie guild is about.

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The goalie guild is a foundation that provides resources and education for coaches and and families.

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So it's like, yeah, I want to get right to the point, um, and I want to try and make it as clear and as simple as possible for people to understand all the different layers and all the different programs that are involved.

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So when I discovered gitbook, which is the platform that I used, I thought it was perfect.

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I know it's mostly for like coding websites and and fin tech stuff but I just thought I was like you know what?

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this is?

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Very transparent, um, and there is a lot of information in terms of, like, trying to explain, like here's, how the scholarships work.

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Here's, you know, all the different coaching resources that we provide.

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Here's the actual research that I'm doing.

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You know, a lot of goalie coaches like to lea keep that information close to their chest.

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Sharing is something that we need to break down that barrier here in North America, um, and so I'm very transparent about the stuff that I'm studying and the resources that I tap into, and it's a lot.

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There's a lot of different complex layers to understanding, skill acquisition and goalie development, and I've accrued a lot of knowledge over the years, and so I just want to make sure that what I'm sharing is as transparent and as simple as possible to get to um.

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So I really appreciate you saying that, because I worked my butt off all summer on rebuilding the experience and making it a little bit, um, clear and more transparent in terms of, like, the work that I'm doing on a daily basis and how it all connects together, um, under this umbrella of just giving back to the goalie community.

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Well, look, the reason I bring it up is this is that this is not true of just hockey.

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This is actually almost everything, but it's just kind of oh, this is the way we've always done.

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It is the general mentality for things and that's the most dangerous way you can think about anything.

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So, whether, again, you're born in Texas, so you know you've already always had to think outside the box.

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But I think what you've done is create somewhat of a model of other organizations or four other organizations, excuse me, they can look at and say, wow, this is a different way of doing this, because I'm like you, man, I'm again, I'm a bit of a nerd.

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By the way, the guild part of the name makes a lot more sense now.

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But yes, the idea is that you know, mike and I are constantly studying the game and finding stuff, and it's like.

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You know, social media is there, but, like, we would just want to give, like, one of the reasons we made the podcast is because we want to create communities and places for people to share this type of information, and I think you've done that digitally in a way that's not looking like just a sales pitch, and I really appreciated that when I saw it.

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So that's really cool

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yeah, I know, and I appreciate that feedback because it is one of the things like I'm not, I'm not selling a product right.

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Like I'm, I'm sharing knowledge and information and trying to make it easier for non-goalie families and non-goalie individuals to still want to learn more about the position in a very like, non-obtrusive way.

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So I really appreciate that.

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And I'm also very non-linear.

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Like my background is very non-linear, my development path has been very non-linear and so I'm not afraid to try things that maybe haven't been tried before and not care if people don't like it.

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You know what I'm saying.

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Like I I stay in my lane and I stay in my zone and if I feel like something's gonna contribute to the growth of the foundation or just make it easier for goalies and people to get involved, like that's really at the heart of the decisions that I make with all this stuff yeah, I think, I think like for me.

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I mean, your platform is a great resource for a non-goalie person which I am a goalie person but for somebody who's not studying are you, though, mike?

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are you though I am?

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I am, I mean, I think I'm teasing like my goal attending, and I think it's because I think it is, you know, it's, it's.

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It's such a weird position to try to manage in, in saying, okay, you need to be the best player on the ice, but you also have to be the mentally toughest and you also have to be the person that doesn't show any emotion.

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But you have to show emotion and we have to count on you.

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But you know, and you can't just stop a puck, you know, come on, you know.

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So it's like it's all those different things.

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And what I like about it is that your, your platform is enabled to allow me to kind of talk about the current events of goal-tending, like because goal-tenders are geeking out, right, I mean, you know, like it's, like it's almost when you get, like you know, two chemists in a room together and they start talking about things, you're like I don't know what these two guys are talking about.

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They're gonna be having a happy time and talking about this.

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Like my goal tenders, I want them to talk about like, oh, what's the, what's the latest stick you just got?

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Or what kind of pads did you just buy?

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Or what kind of strapping do you like better, this, this or this, or you know all those kind of really cool things and for me, you know, having a knowledge base there that I can refer to.

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It allows me to communicate with my goal tenders in a way where it's not just about, hey, you know, you got to get ready for the game, all right, well, and guess what I saw?

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I saw this goal tender do this.

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That was really cool that you might want to look at doing, because I see you're struggling here, I see you're struggling there, and sometimes the goalies, because I think the kids I work with you know these are all 18 and under kids they're so adept at being online and finding all that information out, but but, just like anything else we talk about on our show, sometimes it's way too much information and they need help fine-tuning that and and and making sure that they're getting, you know, not only trusted knowledge base, but also something where they feel confident that it doesn't have to be one way or the other, like it doesn't have to be like.

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This is who you need to be and you can't evolve.

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And I think you know, from your point of view, working all these different goal tenors.

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They're constantly evolving, they're gaining, you know, at every level.

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So, justin, before you dive into that, mike, you accidentally alluded to in a great way a question that I was going to ask.

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I think Justin plays into this In your book again.

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I got to hear the power within.

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For those of you who can't see the episode, this great cover.

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By the way, you got a yin yang sign on there, which I've studied a lot, but it's a goalie sitting kind of in a in a Buddha or Zen place.

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But, justin, this is something that's stuck out to me.

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All right, there's a chapter in here, chapter 17,.

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It's called the Truth.

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Okay, it's a very short but powerful chapter that discusses how there's so many voices, mike, that you just said that surround our kids in the game.

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But at the end of the day, it's the athlete's own internal dialogue that is really the most important, and I believe that coaches and parents play a major role in developing that voice and then having to know when to let go so that the player can kind of do it on their own.

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Do you agree with that and, if so, how can we all get better at that?

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Yeah, I'm shaking my head like yes, I agree big time.

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Autonomous support of coaching is is what this is known as, and I think it's one of the most important components to coaching right now in any youth sport, at really any level.

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And you know, again, this is something I experienced firsthand when I was growing up.

00:17:42.026 --> 00:18:14.164
I had to find my own way, I had to solve my own problems, and we know that every athlete is a unique individual cognitively, emotionally, physically and when a goaltender or young athlete can actually learn how to solve their own problems in their own natural environment, whether it's at school or it's at home or it's on the ice they develop that inner confidence and that sense of agency which allows them to go out and do amazing things without needing to lean on someone else for constant support.

00:18:14.164 --> 00:18:20.269
So one of the things that I've learned, especially in goaltending I've learned this from a lot of the greats, for example Mitch corn.

00:18:20.269 --> 00:18:26.309
He always made sure to tell me that you don't want your goalies to lean on you as a crutch.

00:18:26.309 --> 00:18:35.497
You need to know when to step away and, like you said, let go and allow for the goalie to evolve naturally in their own environment.

00:18:35.497 --> 00:18:39.940
And so what's great is that now there's, there's a whole science around this right.

00:18:39.940 --> 00:18:43.626
Autonomous, supportive coaching is not only psychological, but it's also.

00:18:43.626 --> 00:18:53.987
It's also just looking at their natural environment and their surroundings and the things that are impacting their decision making and how they problem solve on a daily basis.

00:18:53.987 --> 00:19:19.078
So, yes, I'm I'm I'm very passionate about agency in goaltenders and allowing them to make some of their own decisions on how they develop and what drills they want to do and what things they want to work on, because that empowers them to know that they can find those answers that they don't have to always seek externally where they're going to figure out why they're getting scored on glove side or why they're giving up bad rebounds.

00:19:19.078 --> 00:19:25.681
And it's a lot of trial and error and so through that trial and error, you know falling down 50 times and getting up 51 times.

00:19:25.681 --> 00:19:27.305
You learn that resilience.

00:19:27.305 --> 00:19:37.449
That resilience actually naturally evolves within yourself and that's so empowering Because when someone tells you you can't do something, you're like you know what I actually know.

00:19:37.449 --> 00:19:41.385
I can do this because I've failed a million times and I know how to struggle.

00:19:41.385 --> 00:19:43.453
I know what it's like to lose hockey games.

00:19:43.453 --> 00:19:45.221
I know what it's like to give up bad goals.

00:19:45.221 --> 00:19:53.144
So that's really only something that can actually happen if your coaches are able to take a step back and be like you know what.

00:19:53.144 --> 00:20:10.565
I see there's an issue here and I know we can solve it, but it's okay if I just let the goalie try to figure it out him or herself and then, when the time comes and they really need that, you know someone to step in and say hey, you know what, you can actually try doing this, you know again.

00:20:10.565 --> 00:20:13.863
I think that's a very empowering experience for the goal tender.

00:20:13.863 --> 00:20:23.318
You're showing that they have the capability of figuring it out and they're going to respond to that, because kids are extremely keen and they're very aware of situations like this.

00:20:23.318 --> 00:20:37.634
So, yeah, I love, I love studying autonomous, supportive coaching, done some work with it in the past few years in Breckenridge and I just think agency is a very, very powerful tool Again, not only when coaching goalies but any athlete at any age.

00:20:38.115 --> 00:20:44.317
Yeah, I was going to say this goes well beyond goal tending, although I can see why it's so important for a gold tender.

00:20:44.317 --> 00:20:45.661
This is, this goes beyond hockey.

00:20:45.661 --> 00:20:47.807
I mean, this is a life skill, right.

00:20:47.807 --> 00:20:53.979
When I, when I work with teams, justin, one of the things I talk about is what is the perfect team, and I always say it's.

00:20:53.979 --> 00:20:58.762
It's an accountable team, right, where there's a culture of accountability, because mistakes are inevitable.

00:20:58.762 --> 00:21:02.558
In sport, the whole game is based off of capitalizing on other people's mistakes, right?

00:21:02.558 --> 00:21:04.762
So it's like can you be accountable?

00:21:04.762 --> 00:21:09.845
Are we teaching our athletes, our kids, each other, to learn?

00:21:09.845 --> 00:21:10.728
Right?

00:21:10.728 --> 00:21:16.986
You know, one of the hardest things about being a parent and everyone listening is going to agree with me on this is you have the knowledge.

00:21:16.986 --> 00:21:19.387
You want to give that knowledge to your kids.

00:21:19.387 --> 00:21:21.752
You want to give it all to them, everything you know.

00:21:21.752 --> 00:21:30.923
But the truth is this they're going to fight you on that, right, and I'm realizing more and more you have to teach them how to learn and how to do this on their own.

00:21:30.923 --> 00:21:46.346
A great example from that chapter that it was such a powerful point is the messages you give yourself, right, and I want to equate this to how we can teach them giving action items to the audience here, right, you basically talked about.

00:21:46.346 --> 00:21:51.477
It can be a negative response or a positive response, right, about how you look at something that's happened to you.

00:21:51.477 --> 00:21:56.943
Like you know, I'm going to do this better next time to get the next save, not, oh, I screwed up and I let the puck in the net.

00:21:56.943 --> 00:21:59.876
A lot of this goes to how you talk to your kids at home.

00:21:59.876 --> 00:22:06.347
I heard a great example from another public speaker about you know, when they leave their plate out, it's don't leave your plate out.

00:22:06.347 --> 00:22:07.835
That's not actually not what you should be saying.

00:22:07.835 --> 00:22:09.778
It's hey, take your plate to the sink.

00:22:09.778 --> 00:22:14.596
The action, the outcome, right Now, that's not negative, positive, but it's.

00:22:14.596 --> 00:22:17.221
It's how you teach them to do that.

00:22:17.221 --> 00:22:24.965
When we teach our kids not the action, but the problem you didn't take your plate to the sink, you left it out.

00:22:24.965 --> 00:22:36.242
Well, we all know how our kids respond to that, right, but if you give them the action of this is why it's important that you do this and you learn to do this they're going to mimic that behavior.

00:22:36.242 --> 00:22:40.744
So when a puck does go in the net or you turn it over, you put it in your own net, whatever it is.

00:22:40.744 --> 00:22:42.493
You know it hurts.

00:22:42.493 --> 00:22:44.305
I always tell the kids you're going to feel bad.

00:22:44.305 --> 00:22:46.375
I'm not telling you should be jumping up and down when you fail.

00:22:46.375 --> 00:22:48.821
That's, that's ridiculous, but you should go okay.

00:22:48.821 --> 00:22:50.005
What's the lesson here?

00:22:50.005 --> 00:22:53.281
What is the sage perspective on this scenario?

00:22:53.281 --> 00:22:55.449
What am I, what am I being taught right now?

00:22:55.449 --> 00:23:09.712
The kid that learns to do that, screw that, the person adult, it doesn't matter that learns to think that way, is going to advance at a level so much faster than the person that doesn't that you will find success.

00:23:09.712 --> 00:23:12.702
Like you said, you might fail 100 times Right.

00:23:12.702 --> 00:23:14.890
So again, I'm talking a lot here.

00:23:14.890 --> 00:23:17.961
I just that chapter really stuck out to me is a real short chapter.

00:23:17.961 --> 00:23:18.986
It's only like a page and a half.

00:23:19.428 --> 00:23:24.624
Yeah, yeah, no, I appreciate that and I think a lot of it is framing right.

00:23:24.624 --> 00:23:45.191
So it's it's understanding that images are really powerful in the mind and I think when, as a head coach or a non goalie coach or even a parent, you just take a little bit of time to understand what it might feel like to be the last line of defense, great, that framing is naturally going to change to be more positive.

00:23:45.191 --> 00:23:51.275
And, again, I think that's why empathy based learning is such a big thing right now and something that you know.

00:23:51.275 --> 00:23:55.776
I'm constantly trying to learn and I know that's very important in a lot of coaching circles as well.

00:23:55.776 --> 00:23:58.627
Maybe you learned a little bit about that at the bronze level, golly.

00:23:58.647 --> 00:24:00.556
Mike told me to go to that.

00:24:00.556 --> 00:24:02.443
By the way, I'm holding up here, joking.

00:24:02.463 --> 00:24:03.689
That's awesome.

00:24:03.910 --> 00:24:04.973
Mike's the one who convinced me.

00:24:04.973 --> 00:24:05.859
I said I'm looking at this.

00:24:05.859 --> 00:24:06.644
Yeah, you should go to that.

00:24:06.644 --> 00:24:08.114
I said All right, mike says I should go.

00:24:08.134 --> 00:24:10.442
I'm going to go by the time this episode's over.

00:24:10.442 --> 00:24:15.740
Mike's going to be so full send on the goalie union, that's for sure.

00:24:15.740 --> 00:24:17.403
Yeah, I think framing is so important.

00:24:17.403 --> 00:24:22.486
One of the things I like to tell parents again, you're talking about actionable, you know things that parents can take away from this.

00:24:22.486 --> 00:24:33.686
One of the biggest things I say to a lot of new goalie parents is just because your kid does something wrong on the ice does not mean there's something wrong with him or her.

00:24:33.686 --> 00:24:50.067
And I think that's extremely important for young for sorry, not young parents, but parents of young goalies to understand because naturally, as a goalie, when you're eight, nine, 10, 11 years old, your brain is forming and you're dealing with all these new emotions that maybe you're not used to.

00:24:50.067 --> 00:24:52.987
When you give up a goal, you do feel bad about yourself.

00:24:52.987 --> 00:25:08.964
You know you let people down, you let your teammates down, you let your coach down, you let people in the stands down and if you look into the stands as a young goalie and you see your parents go like this or having that negative response or, like you know, having that negative energy, you know you feel even worse.

00:25:08.964 --> 00:25:15.259
You know, and that's the last thing you want is for a young goalie to feel like they did something wrong or that there's something wrong with themselves.

00:25:15.259 --> 00:25:17.705
Now, naturally, this is going to occur in hockey games.

00:25:17.705 --> 00:25:23.599
The sport is competitive, we're all trying to get out there and win hockey games, but I think that's where the framing is.

00:25:23.599 --> 00:25:29.286
So important is understanding that just because you lose a game doesn't mean you're a loser right.

00:25:29.286 --> 00:26:01.701
So goalies naturally internally process these things as if there is something wrong with themselves as an individual, because they don't quite understand that, like they're going to go through this journey, that goal tending development is very, like I said, nonlinear, and so for the parents it's just important to try and constantly stay positive and just remember that this is a very lengthy process and it takes a lot of time for goalies to get comfortable moving in the gear and feeling comfortable on the ice and playing that position.

00:26:01.701 --> 00:26:07.107
You know, I think forwards and defensemen, they don't have to deal with that much because you know they're wearing shin pad.

00:26:07.107 --> 00:26:19.469
You know the gear is more molded to their body, whereas with goal tenders it's heavier, it's bulkier, it's not as comfortable, it's a little bit cumbersome and that's going to affect the way that you perform and the way that you feel when you're just out there on the ice playing a hockey game.

00:26:19.469 --> 00:26:21.596
So I think framing is really important.

00:26:21.596 --> 00:26:30.833
I think that's kind of what you were speaking to really clearly and very well about the role of the parent in all of this, and so I think that's really important.

00:26:30.833 --> 00:26:34.167
We talk about framing and I just love that quote that I shared.

00:26:34.167 --> 00:26:39.112
You know, just because you make a mistake does not mean that there's something wrong with you as an individual.

00:26:39.192 --> 00:26:46.840
So yeah, and it's not just parents, this is a coach's job too, like I have heard Mike I know you have too and this always bothers me.

00:26:46.840 --> 00:26:57.374
I have heard coaches multiple times in a one nothing loss or a two to one loss, blame their goal, tender and say something and I'm like you've got to be kidding.

00:26:57.374 --> 00:27:00.520
They can't score the goals as well, right?

00:27:00.520 --> 00:27:05.758
And what a lack of accountability in that situation, right, you know?

00:27:05.758 --> 00:27:23.208
And it's one of those things where, especially in youth hockey, the message you're giving your goalie between periods or after the game, especially if it's not your own kid, right, I mean, you know, one of the things I think I try and say, and I hope other coaches do, is I'm not really worried about the score.

00:27:23.208 --> 00:27:24.232
I tell the goalie that it's just.

00:27:24.232 --> 00:27:26.445
I just want to make sure you're doing everything you can.

00:27:26.445 --> 00:27:27.330
Because here's another one.

00:27:27.330 --> 00:27:28.557
This is one I'm learning with my own son.

00:27:28.557 --> 00:27:30.082
He doesn't know what he doesn't know.

00:27:30.082 --> 00:27:34.678
Right, you know, in, in, in, squirt a lot of goals going up top.

00:27:34.678 --> 00:27:37.990
And I told my boy the other day well, yeah, you're not six feet tall.

00:27:37.990 --> 00:27:49.584
Right, you know, when you shoot for the top bar in youth hockey, you might be pretty close to the head, right, it's not the easiest save to make, so we talk about just what are the things you can do to help yourself in that situation.

00:27:49.584 --> 00:27:52.218
I'm not I'm not worried that it's going to go in, so it's, what are we going to do?

00:27:52.218 --> 00:27:58.490
Another thing, too, is you mentioned this too, and I think that, again, this is for all hockey players this isn't just gold tenders.

00:27:58.490 --> 00:27:59.434
Gold tenders deal with this way.

00:27:59.434 --> 00:28:03.029
More than skaters, though, is when a negative thing happens.

00:28:03.029 --> 00:28:04.015
This is for the parents listening.

00:28:04.015 --> 00:28:06.981
What is the reaction of the kid to you?

00:28:06.981 --> 00:28:12.498
Is it to look to you with fear and am I being judged?

00:28:12.498 --> 00:28:15.229
Or is it I look to you for comfort?

00:28:15.229 --> 00:28:31.859
Or and this one's fine too I don't look at you at all, because because I'm not basing my success on what you think, which is also great, but if your kids, looking up every time they make a mistake, wonder if you're gonna yell at them, that's a dangerous place to be, especially if they're young.

00:28:31.859 --> 00:28:35.198
Right, it's not, in my opinion, justin.

00:28:35.198 --> 00:28:39.619
That's not the relationship I think you want to have with your kids, and I don't think it's going to help them.

00:28:39.619 --> 00:28:40.913
I think it creates anxiety.

00:28:40.913 --> 00:28:41.796
It doesn't reduce it.

00:28:41.796 --> 00:28:48.096
I think, especially if we're talking gold tenders as we're getting to, there's a zen you have to have.

00:28:48.096 --> 00:28:50.222
You have to have a very goldfish memory in that position.

00:28:50.222 --> 00:28:53.959
You know you can't go too long in that spot thinking about it.

00:28:54.580 --> 00:29:01.674
Yeah, yeah, and I mean again we talk about framing for parents and it's also important as part of that is Don't be results driven.

00:29:01.674 --> 00:29:06.518
When you're dealing with a young gold tender, the result is the result.

00:29:06.518 --> 00:29:14.789
It's not a direct correlation to how that gold tender performed or what he or she may have learned In that experience or in that game or in that tournament.

00:29:14.789 --> 00:29:36.049
And so, again, just letting go of the results or the score, like you said, is extremely important Because there's so many other takeaways beyond just what the numbers look like in a game, and the goal-tending position inherently means that you're going to be coping with so many uncontrollables.

00:29:36.049 --> 00:29:39.529
You can't control pucks bouncing off your own D man.

00:29:39.529 --> 00:29:45.670
You can't control your coach deciding to pull you halfway through a game when you know you've still got a lot of fight in you.

00:29:45.670 --> 00:29:47.054
You can't control other coaching decisions.

00:29:47.054 --> 00:29:51.166
You can't control what other players you know there's just so many control the other team.

00:29:52.232 --> 00:29:53.182
Can't control your own team.

00:29:55.233 --> 00:29:55.474
Right.

00:29:55.474 --> 00:30:00.170
So, and this is this is why, like young goalie struggle a lot of times.

00:30:00.170 --> 00:30:04.211
This is why a lot of things you know, we see a lot of goalies and it's not uncommon, it's not a.

00:30:04.211 --> 00:30:09.471
This isn't meant to be negative, but goalies deal with a lot of anxiety in OCD it's.

00:30:09.471 --> 00:30:15.483
It's naturally developing within themselves because they're playing a sport as the last line of defense.

00:30:15.483 --> 00:30:22.869
I use that line last line to defense a lot because I think it really frames like the struggle and the pressures that goalies face as the last line of defense.

00:30:22.869 --> 00:30:29.165
It sucks to play a game that you love when you have to react to what's happening out there.

00:30:29.165 --> 00:30:32.467
95% of the time you don't have that agency.

00:30:32.467 --> 00:30:51.798
All the time you don't get to walk up to the plate and get ready to swing and hit a dinger right Like you have to wait for the game to come to you and there's a lot of stress and anxiety that is inherent with that, especially when you're also feeling external pressure of like I have to win this game, I can't give up bad goals, otherwise I'm not gonna play the next game or I'm gonna get benched.

00:30:51.798 --> 00:31:08.421
So there's so much happening within your own mind as a young goal tender that, like anything you can do to help alleviate those results driven overly competitive Voices, whether it's external or internal, is really gonna help.

00:31:08.421 --> 00:31:12.269
So again, it's like a lot of cliche comments, but it's just like it's about.

00:31:12.269 --> 00:31:17.357
It's about the journey, not the right, like it's about the journey, not the destination.

00:31:17.357 --> 00:31:39.849
And all of these different things really do help a young goalie, you know, process the game a little bit better and just like calm themselves down and, and most importantly, just have fun with it and not feel like they have to win every single game or always be the best player on the ice To feel like they're effective or they're, you know, they're part of a team.

00:31:39.890 --> 00:31:44.055
Yeah, I'd love to add into I mean knowing that right and thinking about how you frame.

00:31:44.055 --> 00:31:49.269
Because I do think, like there, you know, we talked to our youth players all the time about you know what you can control.

00:31:49.269 --> 00:31:57.289
What you can control If you have two defensemen and one defenseman's covering a play and the other defensemen has no idea where they're going and your scored against you.

00:31:57.289 --> 00:31:59.482
You can't just yell at two defensemen.

00:31:59.482 --> 00:32:02.659
I mean you just had to say, well, you have to use level, especially you.

00:32:02.659 --> 00:32:03.241
You're doing your job.

00:32:03.241 --> 00:32:06.200
Now Can we go?

00:32:06.200 --> 00:32:06.823
Can we go?

00:32:06.823 --> 00:32:10.866
Look at what happened prior to the goal, like where, where were you positioning?

00:32:10.866 --> 00:32:11.369
Did the puck out of zone?

00:32:11.369 --> 00:32:11.632
Did you?

00:32:11.632 --> 00:32:12.436
Did this lead to this?

00:32:12.436 --> 00:32:14.107
Like all that kind of stuff.

00:32:14.107 --> 00:32:20.569
But ultimately, at the youth level, it's all about like, what are you doing as an individual and are you getting better or you're getting worse?

00:32:20.569 --> 00:32:24.663
Are you improving or you're not learning, like you know.

00:32:24.663 --> 00:33:16.712
So I think you know, knowing your background from a goal-tenning perspective and some of the technology you're involved in, like I know us in our school, we just put in a censorina room, you know, for the goal-tenners, and it really was more, because it was a lack of Ice and and and the ability to say, well, listen, you can't ask these kids to throw the pads on, throw the skates on, and so what you know maybe you could talk a little bit about you know, knowing that goal-tenning is such a unique position and not, you know, not necessarily have to have a censorina program, but what can you do off the ice as an individual goal-tender To kind of quiet yourself and be in positions where you can get better without a coach, without a, you know, without having to have full-time goalie coaching but I have to have a shooter with you and also the things that you can do to work on your game, because, just specifically, you're the goal-tenner needs to work on specific things In relation to you.

00:33:16.712 --> 00:33:25.922
So maybe you could talk a little bit about you know, not to get a whole you know off ice training program here, but you know what can goaltenders do to strategize, to say, listen, I'm on the ice twice a week of my team.

00:33:25.922 --> 00:33:33.624
Yes, sometimes I have a goalie coach, sometimes I don't, but I know where my deficiencies lie and what can I do to improve those without getting on the ice.

00:33:33.624 --> 00:33:39.840
Yeah, yeah, no, and that's a great question and this points to a couple of things First of all that sense of agency right?

00:33:43.891 --> 00:33:54.961
We know that goaltending is and I'll say this a million times we know that goaltending is very nonlinear in terms of Like that development path, but it's also very self-organized.

00:33:54.961 --> 00:33:58.869
And by self-organization I mean what I spoke about much earlier is like being able to solve your own problems.

00:33:58.869 --> 00:34:21.864
And you know Lee's reading the, the first, the first episode of the trilogy of the power within, and Lee, as you get through the other two books and you get to the end, and you've Probably heard from 35, 40 NHL goalies that have all been on extremely different paths to getting to that top of that goaltending mountain.

00:34:21.864 --> 00:34:25.889
But there are correlations and things that they've that you will find that are similar in all of them.

00:34:25.889 --> 00:34:41.733
And one of them to Mike's point is, like every goalie that's achieved a level of greatness or have reached that high level, they all, at some point in their junior career, have reached that high level At some point in their junior career, some point where they were of age.

00:34:41.733 --> 00:35:03.858
It's different for everyone doing some type of off ice mind body awareness practice, whether it's yoga or Pilates or breathing techniques or visualization, but one thing about the mind body connection is so incredibly valuable for a goaltender to find that level of inner performance.

00:35:03.858 --> 00:35:12.050
You almost don't get to that high level of performance unless you're doing something like that on at least some type of regular practice.

00:35:12.050 --> 00:35:28.831
Now, it's not like they're doing it seven days a week and that's it, but at some point in their journey they picked up some type of mind body awareness practice and they gravitated to it because they realized that it helped them feel better about all of these different aspects of their development.

00:35:28.831 --> 00:35:29.791
Does that make sense?

00:35:29.791 --> 00:35:32.376
So, mike, that's that's one of the first things.

00:35:32.376 --> 00:35:40.806
Like right now, breathing exercises and just having a basic understanding of why it's so important for a goalie is huge right now at all levels.

00:35:40.806 --> 00:35:54.806
And I think about when I was a goalie at a younger age, like I wasn't breathing half the game because I was so like just tense and so caught up and tracking the puck and making sure all the bajillion things of my positioning and my technique were dialed in right.

00:35:54.806 --> 00:36:17.460
So half the time, like when you're killing a penalty and the pressure is on in a three, three game, in overtime, it's like you're not breathing, you're holding your breath and you tense up right, and so just having that basic understanding of the knowledge and the awareness of I'm not breathing is going to, you know, hopefully lead you down this journey of like, okay, how can I get better at this when I'm actually performing?

00:36:17.460 --> 00:36:19.882
So, yeah, that's just one example.

00:36:19.882 --> 00:36:27.632
And like to your point about sense arena, why I love being involved with the sense arena program is because, again, it provides agency for the gold tender.

00:36:27.632 --> 00:36:42.230
They can put on the headset and they can go in and they can choose what drills they want to work on and what areas of the game they want to work on, and it's all through their own research and their own drive and their own passion for wanting to figure things out.

00:36:42.230 --> 00:36:52.103
And and yeah, it's great, you can have a coach say like okay, here you're going to go in and do the x, y and z, but like I personally just love giving them a headset and be like, here's how you get into sense arena.

00:36:52.103 --> 00:37:00.838
You let me know what you you find, yeah, tell me what you experienced, let me know what you thought was cool and what you thought wasn't so great, you know.

00:37:00.838 --> 00:37:19.139
And just listening to their experience guiding themselves in their own development path again circles back to all the stuff I've been talking about about self organization and and autonomy and agency and like that's where I think goalies truly learn.

00:37:19.139 --> 00:37:23.784
Like we know, learning happens everywhere and you need good coaches to provide some structure.

00:37:23.784 --> 00:37:33.744
But when I see goalies just go in and tinker in the headset themselves and come back to me and they're like I want to take this drill that I did and, since we're in the iPhone, I want to do this on the ice.

00:37:33.744 --> 00:37:34.786
Can we replicate this?

00:37:34.786 --> 00:37:35.889
It's like all right, let's figure out how to do it.

00:37:35.889 --> 00:37:42.478
Yeah and that's, that's, I think, very powerful for for goalies and and like you said, and players.

00:37:42.818 --> 00:37:46.182
So we got to quickly make sure all the listeners understand what censoring is.

00:37:46.182 --> 00:37:49.507
So it's a VR experience, right?

00:37:49.507 --> 00:38:00.797
So oculus, somebody might have oculus, but you put a headset on layman's terms I know some of you know out there but I got to tell you, man, I tried this thing out about a year ago and I remember I was skeptical.

00:38:00.797 --> 00:38:02.340
I'm like I, this is gonna be met.

00:38:02.340 --> 00:38:04.722
Man, I was in the NHL for a minute.

00:38:04.722 --> 00:38:06.304
I mean, it was insane.

00:38:06.304 --> 00:38:13.153
You put this headset on and you're on the ice making waves and I'm not even a goalie and it was like wow.

00:38:13.153 --> 00:38:15.175
In fact, mike, it gave me hope.

00:38:15.175 --> 00:38:18.358
As I get older and my body really won't let me do this anymore.

00:38:18.358 --> 00:38:19.940
I'm like I'm still going to get to play.

00:38:19.940 --> 00:38:24.186
So, because this technology is only going to evolve to the point where we can all use it.

00:38:24.266 --> 00:38:31.476
But yeah, and the cool thing about anything like that is a lot of the components that are in.

00:38:31.476 --> 00:38:38.744
There are, like for a guy like me, like has you know 2530 athletes and I'm like I got to get more reps for them, somehow unsupervised by me.

00:38:38.744 --> 00:38:40.530
So it's just another tool.

00:38:40.530 --> 00:38:47.338
But all the things that are in there are things that guys like Justin, I've been doing without a VR, like it, just it, just this.

00:38:47.338 --> 00:38:59.253
Again, it's just another tool, but you can, you know to your point, justin, as a goal tender and as a parent, you can find all of those in your living room, I mean for free.

00:38:59.253 --> 00:39:05.300
Like visualization doesn't need equipment, but the equipment definitely enhances and helps.

00:39:05.300 --> 00:39:13.250
I guess, in a place where sometimes our kids, you know, don't get, you know, and that like, like you saw, every goal it does, I don't leave.

00:39:13.250 --> 00:39:15.253
There's a goalie in the world that doesn't know how to juggle right.

00:39:15.253 --> 00:39:18.476
Like every goal, like every goalie, like juggling.

00:39:18.538 --> 00:39:20.480
I don't know how to juggle, you got it.

00:39:20.480 --> 00:39:22.202
You got it, come on.

00:39:22.222 --> 00:39:30.411
But I mean, but every goal, you see, they have a ball and they're juggling or they're, they're throwing the ball off the wall, like that's basically it's free, right, I mean so.

00:39:30.411 --> 00:39:46.206
So you can do a lot of those kind of things, and whether you're doing it for hand, I coordination, whether you're doing it to mentally prepare, whether you're doing it just for you know, getting your body in motion and warm and flexible, like so it's all different variables to why you do it.

00:39:46.206 --> 00:40:15.001
My point was just, you know the goal tending position, and it took me a little while as a coach, especially at the college level, to understand like, okay, I gotta get these guys, like they're gonna leave the room and they wanna do their own thing, like I want a team Well, and they are part of the team, but their preparation and, honestly for me, like I've allowed all the players to do that, like all the players now are learning how to prepare differently to help them.

00:40:15.001 --> 00:40:41.740
Yes, there is a time to be in the locker room together and everyone, you know, being synergized with what we're doing, but there also is a time where certain players need to get themselves ready in certain different ways, and then we as coaches have to respect that and I think also, like you mentioned about you know the breathing exercise and things like that like there's some listen, there's a lot of old school coaches still that don't give a crap about your breathing, don't care that you're not ready, or like, listen, just get in the pipes.

00:40:41.740 --> 00:40:43.621
I'm not taking the time out for you.

00:40:43.621 --> 00:40:47.699
You gotta suck it up and be you know and be prepared.

00:40:47.699 --> 00:40:50.643
How you do that I don't care and I don't wanna know.

00:40:50.643 --> 00:41:04.083
And I think that's where we've all evolved especially from a USA occupant perspective in the bronze coaching clinics and things like that that we're just giving so much more education to the everyday coach to know that.

00:41:04.083 --> 00:41:08.902
Okay, this is another point of emphasis that we have to have for all of our athletes.

00:41:08.902 --> 00:41:26.621
It just happens to be that this one athlete is a very important cog to the wheel, because we usually only have two of them and then we have to, you know, cater around that player to get proper positive reps so that when they do get to a game, you know, we can just let them go and do their thing.

00:41:26.621 --> 00:41:36.539
So it's just because you're absolutely right If I have a defenseman that has a bad first period, I could sit that defenseman for the next two periods If I have a goalie that has a bad period.

00:41:36.539 --> 00:41:38.824
It's not so easy.

00:41:38.824 --> 00:41:40.617
You know I mean I you might not have a choice.

00:41:41.019 --> 00:41:41.722
You might not have a choice.

00:41:41.954 --> 00:41:45.161
Well, not only that we've seen plenty of times where you pull a goalie, he's out.

00:41:45.161 --> 00:41:47.302
Then you the hell, this kid sucks too.

00:41:47.302 --> 00:41:48.440
Throw the other guy back in.

00:41:48.440 --> 00:41:50.882
Then he's like, okay, he's terrible.

00:41:51.434 --> 00:41:53.181
You saw, everybody knows how to juggle and hockey right.

00:41:55.902 --> 00:41:56.364
Yeah, you can't.

00:41:56.364 --> 00:42:02.737
Just you know you don't have six goalies on the bench and you have to prepare for having players that have a different.

00:42:02.737 --> 00:42:17.880
You know there's a different piece of how that player needs to fundamentally prepare and recover and think about the game and you as a coach need to understand it that you may need to take a little extra time and have a different communication.

00:42:17.880 --> 00:42:30.981
You know vehicle or portal with your goalies, not so much like to cater to them but to understand that last line is offense mentality and how that presses on them.

00:42:31.342 --> 00:42:37.119
Yeah, there's a couple of that's all very great points and it's a lot of.

00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:48.403
The conversation we're having right now is a conversation I'd love to have with non-goalie coaches, because we're all just trying to find alignment and how we understand what it means to be a goalie.

00:42:48.403 --> 00:42:51.824
And again, real quick, a point on sensorina.

00:42:51.824 --> 00:42:57.885
One of the things I absolutely love about it and how it's evolving is that it does generate empathy.

00:42:57.885 --> 00:43:10.284
When you put the headset on and you play the goal-tending position in sensorina and you've never been a goalie before, all of a sudden you're like, oh my God, it's actually not very easy to see pups from the point oh my God traffic does suck.

00:43:10.284 --> 00:43:13.403
Oh my God, just having a mask on your face with the bars.

00:43:13.403 --> 00:43:18.485
Oh my God, things aren't as clear as I maybe thought watching from the bench, so like-.

00:43:18.775 --> 00:43:19.998
And you know what, and you can't get hurt.

00:43:19.998 --> 00:43:23.000
That's true, that's true, you can't get hurt.

00:43:23.715 --> 00:43:40.259
But that's the thing I think that's so important is like I challenge parents and I challenge coaches that have never been a goalie before to put on the sensorina headset and do a goalie drill, just to get a very simple idea of like oh my God, this is not nearly as easy as I mean my life.

00:43:40.855 --> 00:43:41.914
I got a couple of dads and moms.

00:43:41.914 --> 00:43:43.059
I got a couple of dads and moms.

00:43:43.059 --> 00:43:43.885
I think I'll invite Dara.

00:43:44.115 --> 00:43:45.141