Working in Hockey with Nick Bowins: A Mission to Help People Find Jobs in the Game

Hello hockey friends and families around the world, and welcome to another episode of

Our Kids Play Hockey. I'm Lee Elias, joined by Christie Casciano-Burns, who looks like

she's right by a fire today if you're watching the episode. If you're listening, her

voice is just as warm, so it's always good. And there's also Mike Bonelli, the

Christmas rock. It's going to be here with you for the entire holiday season and

year today as we record on Monday morning and make Mike happy. But today's episode

is all about opportunity, not just for kids chasing goals on the ice, but for

anyone who loves the sport and wants to stay connected to it for their entire

lives. We get asked all the time by parents and coaches, hey, I want to get

involved in the game beyond just being a fan or beyond just coaching. This is the

episode for you Because our guest, Nick Bowins, is the founder of working in hockey,

a platform that highlights the countless roles that make the hockey world run, from

coaching to analytics, to marketing, to media, to events, to community development.

And there's a lot more than that. Nick's message is simple but powerful. There's

room for everyone in this game. And we believe that as well. Here, Nick, welcome to

Our Kids Play Hockey. Absolutely. Thank you guys for having me. I'm a fan of what

you do, so I'm excited to be here with you this morning. Now, we're excited to

have you too, buddy. And again, this is going to be a fun episode, because I meant

what I said in the open. I mean, at least once a week, I'm asked, hey, how did

you get a job in hockey? How do you work in hockey? So your stuff is literally

called working in hockey. Why don't we give for the audience who might not know the

origin story? What inspired you to create this? What was the moment that you

realized you had to do it? Tell us about how it has grown into the monster, that

monster, the miraculous site that it is now in the community. You do a lot of

podcasts. Where did this all start? Yeah, absolutely. I think I'm a fan of simple

names. I like looking at something and knowing exactly what it is. So we tried to

keep it simple, stupid with working in hockey. Like you said, it's for anybody

looking to work in the game. I think a lot of times, you know, like we were

talking off air, we kind of think all we're going to be NHL players, PWHL players,

Olympians when we're growing up and then you know reality starts to sink in a

little bit and maybe we have to go down some more traditional job paths or

otherwise there myself i worked in the o hl for a couple internships while i was

in university at waterloo there um i worked for a couple different teams have

consulted for a couple different hockey companies um and then kind of graduated about

a month or two into covid so hockey jobs were far and few between while covid was

kind of ramping up there, right? So I took a couple more normal desk jobs, day

jobs. And, you know, I've found my lane there. I love what I do today, but I

always kind of stayed involved in the game. I worked for a couple hockey media

brands like Triple Deak with J .T. Barnett. I ran Hockey Collective, one of the

biggest, or if not the biggest at the time, social media brands with over 500 ,000

followers on Instagram there. And, you know, the more that I had conversations with

people in the business world or, you know, they poked and prodded around what I've

done with Hockey Collective or otherwise, they were interested in kind of, or at

least asking the same questions I head of, hey, how do you get into the industry?

Okay, I love playing. I love being around the game. I still go watch games every

weekend, but how do I break into the industry? So working in hockey, kind of a

napkin, chicken scratch idea about two years ago, but really the goal for me, guys,

is to increase transparency, visibility and just share these job postings with people.

I think there's so many hidden job boards or network -only jobs that get out there

that my job is if I can just share these openings and postings with the masses

with the public, with people who are currently playing or maybe thinking about

shifting to the business side, that's a win for me. So working in hockey is a free

weekly newsletter that contains a list of every single job I can find in hockey in

North America. get it all in one spot to make

Um, today as we sit here, we just hit 60 ,000 followers on Instagram last night. We

have 15 ,000 people on the free weekly newsletter there. We've got about 15 ,000

followers on LinkedIn. And, um, you know, it's hard to track how many people exactly

have helped get a job or otherwise, but I've had over a hundred people directly

reach out to myself saying that they found a job through, uh, the newsletter, the

social posts or otherwise. Right. And we were surprised us to follow up how many

opportunities there are in the hockey community nationwide, even do you stretch out

internationally too? Just focus on North America right now.

I sprinkle in the odd NHL Europe or AMG job in Europe, whatever it may be.

CCM has a few out there too. But for the most part, I've focused on North America

because I try to build the actual relationships with the teams and hiring managers

to, you know, understand what they're looking for and hopefully help students and

young professionals land those jobs easier. But, yeah, completely shocked by the

number of jobs that are out there. Every week, we average, I think it's 63 jobs in

the newsletter, usually anywhere from, I think today was really low due to

Thanksgiving, obviously, but I think we still have 41 jobs in it. And we've had as

many as 150 in given weeks in the summer or in the fall. So there's so many jobs.

And I mean, you guys know, there's so many career paths that you don't think of

growing up or you don't know exist. And then you go, oh, that makes sense. Oh,

there's 10 people on that team for every professional sports team or whatever it is.

So, yeah, shocked by the number of roles that are out there. You know, I'm going

to tell a little story here real quick about my journey to get a job in hockey.

By the way, real quick, love the name working in hockey. You talk about simplicity.

Our show name is our kids play hockey. There's something about just saying, this is

exactly what it is. That makes a lot of sense. But my first job in hockey was as

a stockroom boy for a local pro shop in my town. Right. And I realized that job

that, oh, wow, this is work. But I also enjoyed working in the game. And then I

went to school for broadcasting. Now, the cool part about this is that When I was

in college, obviously the internet existed, but it's not what it is today. And to

find a job online at that time, there's no LinkedIn. There's nothing. There's nothing

really there, right? You have to kind of search. And the way I got my job at the

NHL at the time was I was at my college rink. And I was in the back office

because I actually worked there too as a coach. And on the desk of one of my

friends was a business card for somebody from the NHL and I had no idea who this

person was their job title didn't make any sense to me kids adults listening because

this is kind of what it takes I didn't care I emailed that person I took the

email down I said my name is Lee Elias I'm very interested in working at the NHL

can I take you out to lunch I just want to meet you and say hello I got very

lucky that person emailed me back he let me take out to lunch give me a full tour

of the NHL offices, you know, and again, it wasn't just like, hey, man, here's a

job. He sent me information of, hey, here's some jobs you should apply for. I

applied. I interviewed. It was a six -month process. I remember at one point thinking

it's just not going to happen. And then I got the call one day that I got the

job with at the time, the NHL network in North America. That's how it used to be

done. I'm telling this story, Nick, because I would have done anything for your site

back at that time weekly, just saying, here's all the things that are available. I

just think it's amazing what you've done and aggregated. You found something that

needed to be done. And not to mention it's a service. You had said, oh, you can

track back to about 100 people that have directly told you if it was one person

that's amazing to help anybody find work, period, but work in the game is an

amazing thing. So the work you're doing, I think I want to make sure people

understand here. This is such important work and it's such gracious work to be

helping people follow their dreams because working in hockey really is a dream. I

don't know too many people working in the game, but like, this sucks. I hate this.

You know, I mean, you have your days, right? But at the other day, if you're

working in a hockey arena, it's a good day. So I just want to say that to you,

man, the work you're doing is amazing and I appreciate it so much. No, that means

a lot. I do appreciate it, Lee. And I think, you know, similar to your story

there, like the fact that that person got back to you and sat down and went for

lunch with you, I think that just showcases our game in a nutshell. There is so

many good people in it. There is people that are willing to help and go that extra

mile and they know how hard it was to get into the industry. So whether it's a

business card back in the day, a LinkedIn message today, whatever it is, there's so

many people in our game that are willing to help. And that's been the coolest thing

for me is getting to meet some of those people and hear their stories and hear how

they're helping today's youth, whoever else it may be. It's awesome. And one follow

up, Mike, I'm going to throw it to you. I keep cutting Mike off, guys. But I did

want to just close the loop on this one. Sorry, Mike, yeah. Is that I wanted to

mention this, that that person that I emailed told me that, wow, no one ever does

that. No one ever bothers to email. So I want to make sure I tell the audience

here that so many people will stop short of, they'll never respond. They'll never

answer. Well, if you don't do it, they're definitely not going to answer. I'm not

going to guarantee you if you email someone, they're going to get back to you. But

I can guarantee if you don't email them, they're not going to get back to you. You

would be surprised audience. You'd be surprised, A, how available these people are.

Now, if you're going to email the GM of an NHL team, you're probably not going to

get a response. Okay, but you'd be surprised how many of these employees are willing

to email you back. And you'd also be surprised how many people don't email. They

just, they stop short for whatever reason. If you want to do this, do it.

All right, find. And again, the resource working and you have the resources to find

these jobs and to find these people to email so sorry i am going to throw it to

you mike i just want to make that point i didn't want to forget you know it makes

it makes a ton of sense i think we've all been through that process right nick can

you describe like the life cycle of a professional hockey person and i don't mean

like we all think oh i'm going to coach uh and i'm just going to go be the head

coach of the you know the tap of a lightning like i don't so So you've seen it

now in real time, right? I'm sure you're seeing the life cycles of, you know,

here's a player. He's a girl, boy, whatever, 18 years old. They're done with their

hockey career on ice. And they love hockey. They're passionate about stats. They're

passionate about broadcasting. They love tinkering in the hockey world. They don't

want to go get a desk job somewhere that doesn't have hockey related to it. Talk a

little bit about, you know, how your platform helps people get into,

like, the steps of growing, like, because we all see, you mentioned it. In the NHL,

each team has tons of teams within that team, whether it's on -ice personalities,

whether it's off -ice, you know, community relations people, which is social media,

whether it's, all the different things that go into it. Just talk a little bit

about how you don't have to go into the NHL or a hockey job for the dream job,

but it is the starting path to get in the door to start working within the hockey

industry. 100%. That's a great question, Mike. I think a lot of times I look at it

very similar to a player's kind of growth trajectory, right? It's sometimes, you

know, the route is you have to start in junior and then go to college and then

ECHL, AHL to work up to the NHL. The biggest thing for me that I always try to,

I don't like the word preach, maybe I use it too much, but I guess I try to

preach it is it's really about that first opportunity. And it doesn't matter what

level it is. It could be your local high school team. It could be the AAA team in

the area. It could be an NHL team if you're so lucky to get that first

opportunity. But the biggest thing that professional sports teams look for on a

resume is that you've worked for another team. It doesn't really matter the league,

the level, the team, the location. They want to see that abbreviation. They want to

see Tampa Bay Lightning NHL. They want to see, you know, worked in the ECHL or

with an NCAA team. Getting that first opportunity, regardless of whether it's an

assistant coach or, you know, you're pushing pucks on the weekend or you're just

taking tickets for the 50 -50 at your local junior team. That first experience is so

crucial. I would pretty well tell anybody to do any job that gets them that first

team.

But his life cycle went from, you know, college to pro, to back, back to minor

league hockey. And then years and years and years. And then, you know, and you'll

see like guys like, like Pat Cooper started as a, you know, John Cooper, Pat

Cooper. John Cooper started as like a youth hockey coach and, you know, just, you

know, as a lawyer, right? But, you know, could just give a little bit, like I see

your site, right? I go in there, I say, oh, for a mascot for the Tallahassee ward

hogs and you know I get in now because maybe I don't want to be a mascot right

but your point is like get in there see the inner workings of what goes on you're

good at this piece but guess what you might be able to transition this piece and I

think you're to your could you talk a little bit about at the minor level and I'll

you know NCAA oh -h -l these places don't have huge budgets right i mean nobody's

coming in like i'm sure the first like when i hire a coach the first thing if

somebody asks me like what it pays i most likely don't even interview them anymore

i'm like you're in the wrong you're in the wrong step of this but talk to a

little bit about how you'll get into these organizations and you actually become a

jack of all trades a hundred percent i think that's the biggest thing with working

in sports and it doesn't matter what level of your career, what role or team

department it is, being able to do multiple things and be that jack of all trades

is so important. I always, you know, reference my first internship was with the own

sound attack in the OHL. The first game night, I think I was tweeting, live

tweeting the game. The second game night, I was helping the guys track shots. The

third one, I was throwing ice cream bars to fans, like, whatever it is, every

single day different right um and you know you can look at that as like oh that's

an intern job you know they were giving you whatever little grunt work but no

that's the reality is is everybody does that everybody does a million different

things whatever it takes for the team the same way that a coach would preach it to

the players is the way that the business side looks at it right it's saying

anything you can do for the team so um to me absolutely mike i think any of those

experiences where you just get your foot in the door and and then say yes to these

opportunities. I was talking with a college student the other day. He joined as

hockey analytics intern with a team in his area. It's not a huge analytics

department. They just have a couple kids tracking stats and stuff, right? But then

after that, he was talking to the marketing person, and now he helps them with

social media on game days. And then from that, he held their team camera a couple

of times. Now he's taking photos of different teams using that team's camera, and

you know, he's did in photography and videography and stuff now, right? So being

around the game exposes you to so many different avenues and things and just getting

that first foot in the door, it sounds corny, it sounds cliche, but that's the

reality is getting your first foot in the door and then saying yes to these

different opportunities to build off of it. I mean, that's true with a lot of

industries. I'm just curious, what are the most common opportunities,

common postings most sought after positions and what are some of those little known

positions that somebody might be listening right now and saying i never knew they

needed that podcast host children's youth children's hockey podcast go ahead next

sorry it's a great question yeah i think um last year so april to april 2025 um

so i started at april 2024 over the three hundred and

It builds a lot of transferable skills. You get a lot of people skills,

organizational skills, that even if you think, hey, calling 100 people today sucks,

you're going to learn a lot from that, that then you can apply to those different

areas. So by far and away, sales is the biggest category of jobs we see, Christy.

I think that makes sense with, you know, it's a live entertainment business. We're

selling tickets. We're selling sponsorships. We need people. We need advertisers on

the gear, whatever it may be. But, you know, I think my goal, as it pertains to

kind of different departments and stuff, is getting more of those coaching and hockey

operations jobs public. Mike, I'm sure you know it well, but a lot of those jobs

are, you know, behind closed doors or, hey, I know somebody that would, you know,

be suited well for this or this guy could really help out your team. Getting some

of those jobs a little bit more public, I think would be the next big win for me

because I think there is so many great smart hockey IQ people that could do those

jobs that maybe those don't end up on a public job board as much as much as I'd

like. But I think that's going back to your original point. That's why you have to

get in the door and be internal in these things. Like sometimes you're like, listen,

my first job in sales was with the New Jersey Rock and Rollers. Now imagine trying

to sell tickets to a roller hockey league, right? Yeah, playing the bulldogs tonight.

It was like, you know, our biggest salesperson was like, we've signed Manon -Rey -Om,

you know, that was like, okay, well, you know, that's how you have to sell. And it

was just, it was rejection after rejection after reject. And then finally, I'm like

selling tickets to my grandmother, like, hey, come on, somebody's got to buy tickets.

But I think, but being in those offices, like you might be getting rejected, but

somebody seeing that you're, you're just hounding away and you're positive and you

have great you know whatever skills you have you're showcasing them in front of

people that you would never ever get in front of in an interview because you don't

have a resume right so i think to your point if you want the hockey ops job if

you want the assistant GM job if you want that role something you have to be

somewhere else you have to get in there because these roles are whether we like it

or not we see it right now like in the NFL right like coaches are getting hired

without even interviewing like they just get hired because nobody even knew there was

a good

you're going to have those opportunities and you're going to realize them quicker

than the average person that's just sitting in their room, you know, sending emails

out. That's exactly. Mike, I just got a text message. The roller hockey team, watch

it back. We're bringing it back. We're going to bring that to Beach hockey too. I

would take it. I would take it. But I think it's just like that. That's the whole

point is you get into these crazy roles and these crazy opportunities and maybe

people like, how did you get on that protein? Well, you know, 25 years ago, I was

doing the laundry. You know, and I think this is not an uncommon story. This is a

regular story. So I've got some cool stories to support this. And before I tell the

story, I do want to say that, Nick, you're actually given everybody here a pretty

good equation, all right? I want to make sure the audience understands it. You are

100 % correct. Mike is correct. Christy's correct. Getting your foot in the door,

that first step in the door is everything. For everyone listening, he has said sales

is available. Okay, first off, I know a lot of people, I, that's not me.

I can never do sales. Everyone is selling something all the time. Even if you want

a job, you better be ready to sell yourself. I highly recommend if you want to

work in sports, taking a sales job just to do and learn, okay? Nick,

you had said it. You will learn so much just by interacting with people,

understanding your fan base. It's an important part of it. Sales are an important

skill to have no matter what industry you're in. I just, I, because I used to be

the kid who's like, that's not me. And then I got a sales job, but I said, wow,

not only am I okay at this, but I have an ethical way of doing it and I'm

learning a lot and I'm dealing with a lot of people. It was one of the most

valuable jobs I ever had. Now, the story,

many of you listening have heard about my time in England and winning a championship

in England. I'm very humbled by that and thankful for that. What you haven't heard

is how I landed that coaching job because originally with that team,

there was no coaching job. And I jumped in as a marketer. And my job was to help

raise the fan base of this team. I'm going to say it again, this ends with winning

a championship as a coach, okay? You had said all the things that you have to do.

I wore the mascot suit one night. I have never sweat that much in my entire life

playing a hockey game, all right? I would sit in the crowd. I would interact with

people. I would sit at the desk where people would complain. I was in concessions

where there was food. I was all around the arena trying to find different ways to

market. I was on social media. I did every little thing I could think of to build

that fan base. And in doing that, not only did people start to know who I was,

but I got to interact with the team and the players. Now, I had a lot of hockey

playing and coaching experience prior to this, but getting to be ingrained with them

is how I got the interview with the head coach that would eventually get me that

job, right? I put the mascot suit on and they knew it so there was nothing that i

thought was oh that's beneath me because i know all this stuff about hockey if

you're willing to put the work in you you will find yourself successful i also said

this too you know if you want to coach nick you brought up coaching you can't just

sit there and go well i'm good enough to coach this high level you may have to

volunteer go to your local minor pro team and say i want to here to be a coach.

I'm not talking about youth sports so much right now. I'm talking about just in

general. Got to get those reps. And I wrote this down too. The one thing that I

wish I had when I was younger, that I didn't. I always go back and forth on

whether or not my trajectory would have been the same. But I wrote patience and a

pursuit of knowledge. When I was younger, I was rushing to get to the top so fast.

And again, you can make the argument I did pretty well with that. But I didn't

necessarily. I wasn't present with anything that I was doing. I was always like, I

got to get higher. I got to get higher. I never was where I was at. I think that

was a mistake. And now where I'm at in my career, because one of the things in

hockey is you're perpetually always got your eyes on new jobs, right? It's just the

way it is. I'm patient with it, but I'm also pursuing knowledge. Mike talked about

this all the time. I want to sit down with other coaches and learn. I want to

share notes. Right And I'm actively coaching all the time, but I'm enjoying being

present where I'm at. And I actually think that's a big part of succeeding in this

world is not rushing of I've got to work in hockey now. There's a process about

this. And Nick, again, what I love about what you're saying is you're sharing every

step, every level of that process. What an opportunity for the people listening of

there's always you said there's always something available right now you may have to

move if you're serious about it but i just love your comments on it and like i

said i wore the mascot suit it was a big bear i was sweating and now i'm i'm a

head coach right it all it all works together right it does it definitely does and

and like you said there's learnings and everything you know i wore that big sweaty

mascot costume too too. I had O HL players sneaking me water bottles and timbits so

I could go duck behind it and recharge before going back out to see the fans. But

yeah, it's wearing all those different hats. It's seeing those different opportunities.

And then like you said, is having those conversations with other coaches, asking

somebody out to lunch. I think everybody kind of scoffs at the word networking

because it's super overused. And I think, you know, coming up as a young kid or

through college, you're like, like everybody says networking what does that mean what

is the playbook i don't really think there is a playbook for networking i don't

really think you need to have a playbook for networking you just need to talk to

people and like we said off the hop there's so many good people in our game that

if you can just find people to talk to listen to hear their story learn from their

journey um you know i was at uh uh an hl game over the weekend here and you know

ran into somebody who i'd talk to before they're working in game presentation now

after the game they sat with me for an hour telling me all about you know kind of

how their job works how many people are on their team that's how i learned these

things and i can share it to people and anybody can do the same thing it's just

sitting down talking to somebody being passionate and interested right well i'd say

this too that we we do overuse the word networking i don't think many people do it

i think we say it i think we go to things but i don't think we do it look like

i'll give a shout out to our producer, Caitlin here, who's one of the greatest

networkers I have ever seen, to the point of not only did she network her way into

a job here, right, but the guests that she's able to secure for us, people I think

will never get them. We've had NHLGMs on here. It's just because she's willing to

do the networking, period. So I would say that too. I think that word is overused,

but I don't think a lot of people do it. And most people are willing to sit down

with you, or at least give you a couple minutes to talk about their life and where

they're going. And look, I wrote this down too. Here's a common objection we see,

right? Well, you need five years' experience to work this job. All right, the

reason, okay, there's two sides to this, right? I think the reason people put time

restrictions on the job is to move people aside right away. If you go, oh, I don't

have five years' experience, you're doing us a favor if you're going to just quit

right away. You're probably not tailored. Now, here's the real question for everybody

listening. And audience, I want you to remember this, okay? Can you get five years'

experience in one year?

You can do that. But nobody thinks that way. They see five years. They go, I'm

only 19 years old. I haven't even working. Can you fit five years experience into

one year? Because those people will get hired, all right? I don't want you to lie

about your experience. I don't want anybody to lie ever on a job resume. I'm not

saying to do that. But when you are 19, 29, 39, 59, I don't care. Can you find a

way to put five years experience or 10 years experience in a shorter amount of time

that can be done? And I want people to think that way. Yeah.

I think that's a great point. And I think I hear it a lot of times, too, Lee,

with this job requires five years of experience. Okay, well, I joined my last job

with three years of marketing experience. And then I kind of did more sales. So I

actually had more marketing experience before I took this new job. So sure, my total

years of experience is five, but maybe my experience or my skill set was actually

better a couple years ago. And again, that happens with these different, wear

different hats, be a jack of all trades. But absolutely, you can expedite your

learning. You can grow your skill set faster than people think. Personally, when I

post a job, whether it's, you know, an intern to help with working in hockey or a

full -time job here at the tech company I work at day today. I don't care about

years of experience. I care about what your experience is. I never put a number in

job postings. I know I'm in the minority on that. And most job postings do have a

you need four to eight years of experience but personally very much like you said

it's it's about the quality of the experience i don't care about the number right

right and maybe we can broaden the conversation too we have a lot of parents

listening a lot of adults set in their careers may not be thinking about what how

can i get involved in hockey what opportunities are there for me as an adult um

any ideas you can share it with our listeners yeah absolutely i mean i think just

being being a hockey parent you have to be so organized and good of communication

and networking and getting to meet people in there so i think there is so many

ways that you can help out and whether that's just volunteering with your your minor

hockey association whether that's doing something at the local junior or college team

whatever it may be i think there's so many good people skills and life skills that

you've accumulated by that point that you can apply to just about any avenue you

want in the game. And I think spinning off of that a little bit, Christy, is

there's a lot of people transitioning into sports and into hockey right now at that

30, 40, 50 year old mark. There was a great article in the Wall Street Journal the

other day about kind of corporate Fortune 500 marketers now getting into sports

marketing because they're like, hey, this is way more fun. I think everybody kind of

No, sports is fun and interesting, and a lot of these skills are transferable,

whether it's being a hockey mom, a hockey dad, you know, working in sales at the

local factory, whatever it may be, all these skills are transferable at the end of

the day. It's about how you position it and when you find what you're most

passionate about to apply it to. You know, Nick, can you talk a little bit about

the other side of this too, is about why maybe as a young adult you'd want to

find out, you know, and get involved in working in hockey at a minor league hockey

level or college level, because it's not all glamorous, right? I mean, it's, it's,

you think about like an NHL employee, right? That they probably have to be at every

home game. They have to be at every event. They have to be at every community

relates. God forbid your team, you know, goes deep into the Stanley Cup playoffs.

You know, you're working the whole, the whole, the whole basically all of the

spring. maybe you're better off on a team that's terrible. But I think it's, you

know, I think it's, can you talk a little bit about, like, why that experience is

so necessary because it does sound great, right? Oh, my God, I get to work with

this team. But what are some of the pitfalls that people could find out quickly if

they can get themselves into these positions early on? Yeah, it's a great question.

I think it is all glamorous on the outside, right? But the reality is, it is a

lot of long hours. It is a lot of late nights. You are sacrificing weekends or

holidays or otherwise if you're working with a team. I think you have to know and

be aware of those sacrifices. And I think the other one we kind of mentioned

earlier, Mike, is the pay isn't always the greatest as well, right? But like you

said, if you're in working in hockey or working in sports for the money, it's

probably not the right avenue for you. I think just about everybody who's working in

the game of hockey or within sports. It's doing it for the love of the game.

They're doing it for passion. They're doing it because they love the people. They

work the team and the city. And I think those are the right reasons. If you feel

those reasons, you should definitely pursue working in sports or working in hockey.

If you're looking for a cushy 9 to 5 that has a great, you know,

401 play match and great retirement options and all these different things, maybe not

the best option for you. But I think, again, it's about the passion. It's about the

true love of it. And you go, whether it's, you know, an ECHL team,

an SBAHL team, whatever it may be, the people that are working for that team, even

if it's only 5, 10 people, they love working there. They will do anything for that

team and they're learning so much from it that they can then apply to later life

experiences or otherwise. So It's definitely a great question. There is definitely

downfalls or shortcomings of working in sports. But if you love it, there's there's

a plenty of ways to make it happen. And you get great swag. And you get great

swag. Definitely. It always has good sweat. Let's talk a little bit. Let's do some

myth busting here. I like where this conversation is going. You know, I do want

people understand the two sides of this, as Nick and Mike are alluding to, right?

in any job you have to deal with

standpoint. Here's one, too, from a coaching standpoint, right? You experience a

massive loss, huge loss. Maybe it's a championship loss or a playoff loss. I can

tell you right now, the emotions that accompany that in the game will have you

rethinking your job at times. All right? Now, you always come out of it, all right?

But that's a tough thing. Can you imagine going to your job? And I know some of

you can. and there's just a massive loss every once in a while that happens. I

mean, there's massive wins too, but you've got to ride that way, right? I will say

this, too, on the flip side of this, all right? There is not a day that I wake

up, that I am not thankful. I mean this every day, that I get to do what I do

for a living, right? It is hockey literally 24 -7 in terms of work,

okay? But there's long days. There's long nights. There's preparation. There are,

you know, from a business side, there's sales goals. I mean, you have all of these

aspects that are happening. So I think I want to make sure people understand that

you get a job in hockey or in sports. It's not heaven on earth all the time,

right? It's work, a little bit working in hockey, right? But it is a very rewarding

work. And you And you do, I miss it again. There's not a day that I don't wake

up grateful. And there's not a day I don't wake up thinking that there's a lot of

people out there working that do not have that experience. And I am anchored in

that. There's a lot of people working to put food on the table purely. And they're

doing something they don't want to do to feed their kids. I never lose sight of

that either. So I think there's a lot of balance and grace that has to come into

working in sports in general. And again, I think the older I get, the more of a

grip I have on that. When I was 19 years old, it was, I got to get to the top.

Right. So all those things. You know, Nick, something you've done expertly is not

just the job posting, but you highlight a lot of people in the business through

your podcast and through your interviews. I'd love for you to talk for a few

minutes about, you know, why you've chosen to highlight some of those jobs, some of

the people that work in the game, right? And how that works in your grand

ecosystem. Because I don't want people to think that working hockey is just just a

job listing site. You are so much more than that. Right. And that visibility is

such a key part of what you do. Kudos to you that you spot like these behind the

scenes jobs. Yeah, well, thank you both first and foremost. But yeah, I mean, for

me, I think there is so many cool avenues and cool jobs in the game that maybe I

didn't even know when I first started this brand out. So getting to showcase those

stories and more than anything, getting to share how no two people we've talked to

have ever had the same journey or paths. Lee, you shared your story about finding

the business card. Our last episode, a guy was mailing his resumes to teams. Who

mails things anymore, right? We have email, we have LinkedIn, who mails things? When

was the guy? It shows up. You're interested, right? So I think illuminating these

different stories and paths is super important. Our most recent episode that will go

out here now is Mitch Stewart, the head performance coach for the Utah Mammoth.

I didn't really even know what that title meant coming into it, right? Is that

strength and conditioning? Is that mental performance? What does that look like? You

know, get to learn about his journey, you know, from working with the London

Knights, up to the Arizona Coyotes, now the Utah Mammoth, how many people are

working together on the same goal there for an NHL team, the things he was able to

apply from Major Jr. to the NHL, I think those conversations are so enlightening for

not only the listeners, but myself as well. And again, helps me teach people or

guide people along the way. So, you know, we brought ourselves on the podcast of

never yet to this point. I think we're 60 -ish episodes and never having somebody on

with the same title. All 60 have been different titles, different companies, whatever

it may be. So, you know, showcasing these different jobs, the different paths, and

again, to bring it full circle, the good people in our game. All these people are

people that I know or have recently met and are willing to take time out of their

busy day working in the game to come on, share their story, to help the next

generation. So more than anything, it's showcasing good people. I love that.

And I'll say, too, that I have found that people that have been in the game for a

while want to send the elevator back down. You know, we're constantly looking for,

well, I'll say opportunists, right, that want to work in the game. Look, in my line

of work, man, we get emails every single day with offers of,

I can help your business do this. I can make you a better, I can do this to the

to the point that most of them get deleted. But every once in a while, we'll get

one that speaks to me. And it's usually a younger person saying how much they love

the game. They tell me a little bit about their experience. And they're just saying,

I just want a chance to do this. Most of the time I will actually respond to

those emails. And I'll say, if anything, I'll give you 15 minutes just to talk.

Like, where do you want to be? What do you want to do? And I found that to be

true of most people in the game. But you like, like, you kind of, you know who

you're looking for. You know who's out there and wanting. And there's a certain

cadence in a way to speak to people in the game of, I just want to earn a

chance. I just want to find a way forward. If it's, I can save you $50 ,000 and

buy your business. It's like, oh, okay, great. Thank you. Thank you, Chad, GPT. It's

good to see again um you know but that authenticity that passion for the game and

i think this is a a larger topic here the passion is very obvious when you see it

right if you're listening to this show you are passionate about your kids you're

passionate about the game right i i want to kind of to the listeners double down

on that that that that's very real and i think people can see that right Nick,

100%. I think the authenticity means the most. And,

you know, I get a ton of messages now to the page, to my personal, whatever it

may be. I don't have time to get back to them all. So the ones that I'm picking

are the ones that are authentic, the ones that are genuine, the ones that are

asking a specific question, or, hey, I've done X, can you help me get to why? The

things that are specific and tangible and personable, Those are the ones that I'm

going to reply to first. The person who reached out and says, Hey, how are you?

Well, I would love to sit down and have a conversation about how we're both doing.

I don't always have time to get back to that. So I'm leaning to the one that is,

you know, I've worked for two years in this industry. I really want to switch over.

You know, I grew up playing. I, you know, played here, here, here and here. I

think we have this mutual connection. Those are the ones I'm going to gravitate to

and reply to. I think it's being personal, like you said. There is an element of

pitching yourself and maybe why you can be different, but like you said, it's not,

hey, I can save you X percent on this. That's, we all get those spam messages,

LinkedIn, in mails, whatever it is. So there's an art of being personable. I always

say try to find connections, mutual connections, LinkedIn, Instagram, whatever it is

does a great job of saying your mutual followers or connections. Lean on those.

Reach out to somebody before, you know, if I click on Mike's page after this and

go, oh, I'd really like to talk to that guy. I'm going to shoot Mike a message

and say, Mike, I'd really love to talk to this guy. I'm going to reach out to

him. You don't have to do anything, but can I mention your name because I saw that

you guys go way back. Those sorts of things that can maybe help you stick out or

seem a little bit more personable tend to go a long way. You know, you have, so

you have this great insight, right, as far as, you know, the jobs and what's

posting and what people are looking for and the professional level, the college

level. Tell us how do we

results you would get at the AHL, the OHL, or NCAA level at the youth hockey

event. Like how, you know, what would you be a suggestion, what we can offer to

help people kind of find that path? Yeah, it's a great question. And I think a lot

of times it is, it is, again, a little bit corny, but it's talking about the

opportunity to, to learn so many different things and be involved in so many

different things. You know, I've seen a couple job postings lately, Mike, that are

like,

volunteer administrator for minor hockey association. There's no bullet points. There's

no description of what they're going to be doing. And then they reach out to me

and go, well, I only got six applicants. You told me there's a ton of great people

out there. Well, if you're not pitching it and saying what they're going to be

doing, you're probably not going to get the most qualified or interested or

passionate, most importantly, people for that. So I'll rewrite that one. It's almost

because you're afraid to tell if you start putting bullet points then you have five

pages but no but i love your you know your point is tell me what i'm actually

going to be able to do for you just don't tell it sell it exactly that i think

it goes both ways there you know saying why this opportunity is is beneficial for

somebody you're going to be involved you're going to be around the game you know

we've had people come through this organization before that have gone on to x y and

z we have 350 players in the association whatever whatever it may be, just

illuminating a little bit with the facts and kind of the opportunity there goes a

long way. And then again, once they are in that situation in the room, getting them

involved in different things. You know, my day job, we always joke that like, we

copy everybody on every email. Do they read them all? No. Do they need all that

information? No. But when they're interested in something, or they can say, hey, four

years ago, I worked at this company, and I did a little bit of this, they can

learn from it, right? So just then bringing that person into the conversations, maybe

you're having a meeting with all the coaches or, you know, all the parents are

there, having them prepare something, present something, you know, research something

in advance, whatever it may be to get, sink their teeth in as many different kind

of outcomes as possible. That's when it goes the furthest for the organization or

the association, too. And Nick, would you agree that youth hockey, even high school

hockey programs do a pretty poor job in showing kids the opportunities that they can

take advantage of after the physical hockey game stops,

that there is life after you hang up your stick. Well, you should never hang up

your stick. It's a lifelong game, in my opinion. But once you're done competitively

playing. It doesn't seem like a lot of opportunities are even shared with our kids

today. They just don't have a clue. Yeah, yeah, 100%. I think we can do a lot

better job of that, and I try to help illuminate that as much as possible. I did,

you know, just a Zoom call with a college program recently and ask them, most of

them players, you know, how many jobs, this is a picture of the arena on game

night, how many jobs do you think are here? What different jobs can you guys list

and think of? And, you know, they have the, they have the guy running the jumbotron

and they have the referees and the timekeeper. And it's like, okay, well, what about

the 16 guys here who are doing 50, 50 sales throughout the building? And how about,

okay, there's 25 concession stands in this arena? How many people are in each of

those? All of a sudden, you get to, you get to three, 400 people, whether it's

part time, full time, or otherwise, that might be working on an NHL game night

there. So, you know, just kind of illuminating those.

is I'd like to see more high schools or even colleges. A college is a little

better. But creating student -run game night staff, right? Yeah. Or maybe it doesn't

even need to be paid. There's your experience that we keep up. Yeah, I mean, it's

funny. We ran, for seven years, I ran a high school program in Connecticut, and we

literally, like, we had jobs for the high school kids. And I think I placed more

kids from the high school in colleges that were non -hockey players from video

analysis people director of hockey operations i mean these people are working today

right now in professional hockey roles um broadcasting ticket sales uh 50 50 like

because everybody can't be the first line centerman and you know and and i think to

your point chrissey some of us look at they say oh well how how do I pinpoint the

hockey kid? Well, I always looked at it as, well, I don't know. You've got your

three brothers and sister here tagging along to every single event. That kid doesn't

play hockey at all. Let's put that person into another event or put that person

into the penalty box, learning how to run the clock. There's so many things that go

on in sports. And now with technology, I mean, it's endless, right? And I

you know, it's revolving around the conversation. It's really how do you, if you

love and are passionate about it, like how do you make it something you could

actually make some money? And then on the reverse side, how many people, Nick, to

come to you that have, like, retired from corporate life and they want to still

stay in hockey somehow and they become, you know, they get involved in a local

hockey organization because they have all these great life experiences, they're 60

years old, they're, they're empty nesters. I mean, do you see a lot of that end of

the spectrum as well? Yeah, absolutely, a lot on that end that, you know, they just

love the game and, you know, their kids grew up through it and now they're not

playing anymore and they miss it and they want to get back involved. And, you know,

more often than not, those people have some connections or networks in the game that

they can tap into, whether that's a volunteer or part -time position. So maybe

they're looking for that, that full -time or a little bit something more involved.

can you put me in touch with this person? How does this work? I probably had a

little bit of imposter syndrome when that first started happening. I was doing the

NHL last year. What do you need me for? And now I understand that it does come

back to that education point. And again, just the passion for the game. So trying

to shine a light on those different avenues and trying to connect those good people,

whether it's, you know, your retired everyday average Joe or your an HL player,

connecting them to teams, programs, or otherwise in the game. Well, I always love

the quote. I'm a big comic book guy, but, you know, in the Avengers movie, it

goes, if you consider losing experience, he goes, I consider experience experience,

right? And I think that to your point, Nick, that experience is experience and you

have to find a way to get experience, whether you have been an NHL All -Star or

not, experience is experience. And I think it's the ability to pursue that experience

is really a gift. And I think that that's how we have to look at it. If you're

in a position to pursue experience in the game of hockey for anything, playing,

working, it doesn't matter, parenting, you're in a pretty good spot, right? Also,

and we haven't said this, but Another kind of fact, stat, I think we have to say.

And Mike, you'll laugh at this. There are far more jobs in hockey than there are

jobs playing hockey by miles. You said in a pro game, there's hundreds of employees.

There's only 22 players on the roster on the bench, right? So there's always more

work there. And Nick, I want to mention this too, especially for the younger

audience. And we will do a ride to the rink here shortly too, that we talk a lot

about identity on this show and then how it's dangerous sometimes. Kids get lost in

the all I am as a hockey player. I'm just a hockey player. And we try and tell

them you're passionate about something. That's a gift, but you're so much more than

a hockey player. And that's why at a young age, and you've seen this, Nick, and

all the job postings, right? And the podcast that you've done, it's important to

expand your horizons a bit and say, you know what, I am a hockey player,

but I also enjoy broadcasting. That was me as a kid. I also enjoy writing or

marketing or creatives. Can you talk just for a quick second about how those other

skills are important, how they translate to a career in the game? Yeah, definitely.

And I think a lot of times those skills are learned on the ice, right? The

teamwork and camaraderie that you learn through playing a sport can be beneficial to

the workplace as well. We hear that a lot of times from employers that they love

hiring former athletes or they love hiring veterans who they've been around those

kind of team driven environments before. But, you know, whether it's myself growing

up, I love stats. And, you know, I was the kid who every day at school,

I'd know what the score was of every game last night, who scored, how many goals

they have on the season, whatever it may be. That led me to realize that, hey,

maybe I'm interested in analytics and metrics, and, you know, I probably go too into

the weeds on metrics on these jobs and podcasts or otherwise, but like that's

something that I have interested in. And, you know, while it hasn't been my whole

career, I get to, you know, leverage that in different avenues every day. So I

think identifying those different things that you're passionate about and seeing how

you can tie them into the game, like I said before, I think just about anything

you learn in the real world, in school, and otherwise is transferable into sports in

one manner or another. Again, sales is the obvious one, analytics, you can pretty

clearly see there, even finance. I talked to a guy last week who worked in

corporate finance the last couple of years. He's like, I really want to work in the

game, like what sort of roles exist for me there? And I was like, well, finance

roles. Like every team does their numbers, right? Every team has their accounts

payable accounts receivable they have their financial auditing crew the league wants

to get forecasts and reports everything there are so many finance jobs in the game

and he's like that's a great point didn't really think of it but it's just having

those conversations up and again you find your interest you be passionate about

something and more often than not as long as you're a good person and try hard at

it you can find a way to make it work yeah i mean the nchel offices have four

levels of floors you know in downtown Manhattan so and they're not all hockey

players right so somebody's doing something in the sport I mean I look at my son

even playing like NHAs or whatever I'm like watching him work with salary cast I'm

like I'm like oh my god like that's a better made team than anybody I've seen make

you know and and it's and it's well within the salary cap it is a 12 year old so

I'm like I'm like I'm like you know there's there's so many different avenues you

can go And I think it's the same. I think the reason we play sport is to prepare

for life. So whether, you know, so if that's just one of the paths you're going on

and you don't end up in sport, you don't end up in hockey, the idea that you're

using all of these passionate things that you're involved in, get your kids like

Christy's saying at the youth level, get them doing all these other things. It's

going to pay off in something. Like, Lee, we talk about it all the time, right?

You're going to be professional in something. So just have that great foundation that

if you're using hockey and working in sports to help you get to this other role,

awesome. I think that's a great way to do and it's a fun way to do it. It's very

well. Circling back to your example, like what you did with the high school players,

that's brilliant because not only do the kids win getting all these skills but

you're plugging all the holes how desperate are we so often we don't enough people

to run the board we don't have people and i'll say this too christie the objection

sometimes with high school kids is what's going to be very amateur and i go what

are you have you seen high school hockey this isn't the nchl right like you're

kidding me the girl soccer they're a girl soccer problem we cringe when i'd walk

into the cafeteria at lunch looking for people to work the games like Like, oh,

God, here he comes. You know, but it was, but it was they, I mean, I can tell

you right now, at the end of the year, they had, because they took, like, kids are

great about, like, you know, they're just going to invent all these crazy great

things. And they were coming up with, like, we didn't do T -shirt tosses. We did,

like, you know, egg, like, they did anything they could to get people in the ring.

The point is done, you know, six, seven, 800 people at a game. They don't even

know why they're there but you know who drove that the student body drove it

somebody somebody had it you know or a teacher that wanted to create it and and it

was pretty amateur i'll tell you that right now it's pretty bad it was almost as

amateur as the coaches that they gained too by doing it's it's on par it's on par

with the play that again people lose like well it's not going to be like an no

it's not it's not supposed to be their high school students that's it's experience.

We'll have to get to the end here in a minute. We're running out of time. But I

will say this, just Nick, to prove your point. I was very fortunate to get my

master's in sports management. And I remember when I got into that master's, we had

to do finance class, lawyer class, attorney law, we had to do all these aspects of

sports. I had never done anything in. But I'll tell you what, I love the courses

so much. I was interested. Like, if you told me I would be interested in sports

law, I would have told you you're crazy. I love that class. You know what I mean?

So it just shows you the passion kind of dives through. And I do recommend, if you

guys are looking for a degree or a master's, go highly specialized. When I took

sports management, that was a new major. No one had that. I know it's a little

more prevalent. Find something that's going to give you some really transferable

skills. Nick, again, we're running out of time. I do want to you buddy um just

from a working in hockey standpoint what is your vision from here like is there

more you want to do is there ways this is going to expand and how can we support

you with that there's always more that we all want to do that's for sure but um

no this week here uh as we're we're doing our first event that's uh new jersey

devils game doing a networking event where we uh you know have rented out a room

in the prudential lounge for an hour and a half pregame and we're going to have

about 25 people who work in the game at various levels and about 75 fans,

followers, friends of the program attending there as well. So about 100 people

getting together for some networking and mingling pregame and then watching the game

together. I'm super excited for that. I think, again, the networking aspect is

something that not a lot of people are taking advantage of, like you said earlier,

Lee. So I'm very excited for that. We've got a couple more events like that planned

through the rest of the year, and I think that can be a big success in terms of

connecting people and getting them outside of their comfort zone out of their shell

a little bit as well. It's at the end of the day, it's just watching hockey with

people the same age, the same interests, same geographical location, et cetera. So

I'm very excited for the live events side of things there. But aside from that,

just continuing to try to help people understand and see the different job postings

in our games. So like I said, I never thought this many people would be interested

or care. So we're kind of figuring it out as we go here, but that's a great

problem to have. No, I agree. And I'll add just because you mentioned it. Our

producer, Caitlin, wrote a note here that there's a difference between networking and

socializing and that a lot of people socialize and they're not networking. That

proves your point there, Nick. But, man, what a fantastic episode. I'll say this.

You're doing the hockey gods work, right? I hesitate to say it the other way, but

you really are, my friend. And I always perk up when there's a thought in my head

of, man, I wish I had that when I was younger. I wish I had that when I was a

kid. So for those of you listen to this episode, working in hockey, not hard to

find. Check out the work this man is doing truly just a service to the hockey

community to not just bring the jobs, buddy, but the shows that you do, the

networking opportunities that you do. It's amazing what you've built, and I am

wishing you nothing but the best as you move forward, because it's a wonderful

thing. Thank you, Lee. No, that means a lot, and I really appreciate you guys

having me on here. I think this is, you know, obviously our kids play hockey, is a

self -explanatory name as well, which is great, but it just, again, shows the good

people in the game, the good conversations that happen in the game, and if we can

help one or two people out with these things, we're doing a great thing. I agree,

my friend. And like I said, the ride to the ring is another way to continue that

naming rights, right? So that's going to do it for this edition of Our Kids Play

Hockey for Nick Bowens, Christy Cashino -Berns, Mike Benelli, I'm Lee Elias. Make sure

you check out working in hockey all over social media, all over online. Subscribe to

his newsletter if you're interested in finding a job in the game. And remember, if

you have a topic or a thought you want to talk about, you can email us, team at

Our Kids Playhockey .com, or click the link accompanying this episode in the show

description. Give us your name where you're at. We love talking with your topics.

Take care, everybody. Have a wonderful day. We hope you enjoyed this edition of Our

Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value

wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or

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book When Hockey Stops at When Hockey Stops .com. It's a book that helps children

deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so

much for listening to this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey, and we'll see you on

the next episode.