Beyond the Scoreboard: Andrew Trimble on Youth Hockey Development That Lasts

SPEAKER_03 0:07

Hello, hockey friends and families around the world, and welcome back to another edition of Our Kids Play Hockey in year six. You're still coming back to listen to the show. God, we love all of you. I'm Leah Lias, joined by Mike Benelli and Christy Cassiano Burns. And today's guest, Andrew Trimble, lives at the intersection of development, culture, and long-term growth in youth hockey. That could be the description for the show. So it's a perfect guest. He's the general manager and co-owner of the New England Wolves Hockey Club, helping guide a junior program. And he's also the founder of Scoring Concepts, a skilled development company serving players across New Hampshire. He's the author of Beyond the Scoreboard, a book focused on leadership, culture, and the human side of youth sports. And as we love here, he's coached from the Learn to Skate all the way to the collegiate level, covering the entire gamut that all of you want to hear about. Andrew Trimble, welcome to Our Kids Play Hockey.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

Thanks, guys. Thanks for having me on. It's an honor and I'm looking forward to a great conversation.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Andrew, what a resume you have. You are perfect for our show. So let's just get started with kind of getting to know you a little bit better because that's what we like to do. So you played NCAA Division III hockey at Buffalo State. You're now running a junior program, skill development company. I would imagine that perspective that you got from just your playing days really helps you in your role now with development, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02 1:37

Oh, for sure. Um, you know, it's funny, a lot of the concepts that we talk about on these types of podcasts really were ingrained in me from my grandfather and my father. My grandfather worked for the New Jersey Devils for 25 years and was really instrumental in getting junior leagues formed, like the Metropolitan Junior Hockey League on the East Coast. And then my dad was this really great grassroots coach where he um you know formed programs, started up street hockey leagues, ran hockey camps down at the Ocean Ice Palace in Bricktown, New Jersey. And um, you know, I saw that being lived out every single day in my childhood life. Um, so I you know I developed as a hockey player, but then when my playing days were over, I took a pause in my hockey and and focused on a career in you know in in financial services, but was drawn back into the game for just those reasons to become you know a skill development coach, having kids have fun in the game and building programs, and it's been a real rewarding experience.

SPEAKER_03 2:36

Yeah, I want to say real quick, Andre, I'm I'm glad you brought that up because hockey in New Jersey at the time you're talking about is rapidly growing. I I think people in New Jersey today, uh, there's a lot up there, all right. Uh, but at the time you're talking about, that was not the case. And you know, we're we're around the same age. Can you tell me a little bit about maybe specifically some of the things that you saw that I don't want to say may have been forgotten, but that really shaped you? I'm glad you brought that up because again, on the East Coast, again, hockey is somewhat developed in in terms of at least rinks and places to play, right? Well, though there's still more development that can happen in terms of organizations and and players, but man, it sprouted at that time, right? What were some of the things you saw that kind of blew your mind or that really stuck with you?

SPEAKER_02 3:22

Yeah, that's a great question. And it's funny to go back and look at the way New Jersey was and then the way now New Jersey is. Uh, when I grew up in the 80s and early 90s, there were only a handful of rings. Um, you know, the Ocean Ice Palace in Bricktown was the hub in Monmouth County. Um, but then you had, you know, the it's called uh the Jersey Shore Arena that came around '92, '93. And then within 10 years of that, you had all these rings sprout up, and it's just ballooned the whole thing. Um, and you know, when I was uh going into my freshman year of high school, uh, you know, having played in the brick hockey club, I had a bunch of brick hockey parents who were like, Andy, you can, you know, live with us or use our address because there was a lot of that going on where, you know, you could uh kind of bring in kids to attend public school. But my dad was as a teacher was like, that's not happening. And he worked really hard to get Manisco in high school to have a hockey program. And by my junior year, we had that. But it started off, I think my freshman year, there were only like five high schools in Mammoth County, New Jersey that had high school, high school hockey. And now it's gotta be, it's gotta be 40, it's gotta be 3540. It's it's an incredible growth.

SPEAKER_03 4:30

Well, and I'll say too, if anybody's ever been to a New Jersey Devils game and you walk around that arena, they have all of the high school jerseys on display. Uh, and it goes for a while. Uh, or if you've ever seen their their kind of like senior night game, I mean they're all they're completely covering the ice. So uh thanks for sharing that, Andrew. I always like to share that because I know that there's listeners uh in places around the country that that have what you just described, like not a lot of access to ice. And I think that that development is part of the conversation here, right? When we talk about youth hockey in the sense of it's not just about using what you have, it's about growing the game as much as possible, uh, which is something great.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

So yeah, I think I think it's like and I think even that time, and we talk about the growth of hockey because of pro franchises coming into the the regions, right? The New Jersey Devils are were a late, you know, a late addition to the you know, to the New York metropolitan area. And I think it was certainly that growth, you could see that that you know that growth curve happen because of the involvement with the NHL clubs. And I think that's why, you know, some of these southern uh areas that we're in is is are so strong, is because those NHL clubs, you know, pull those, pull those players into their ecosystem. Uh, but it's great to see that your family and and you and the people involved in that level, you know, caught on to that momentum, right? And started building stuff off of that. And I'm wondering, you know, w as we all get into, you know, all of us that get into hockey as a player, um, often say, well, I'm never gonna do it that way, or or oh, that that's gotta be easier to do. You know, what are some of the things you saw from your transition as a player uh to like a general manager and somebody now running a hockey program that you might have thought, like, oh, I thought that was gonna be easy, or like that's really a lot different than I thought as a player, what goes on? Uh obviously you had a little bit of different background, right? Because your your family was involved in the organizational aspect, but what are some things that you you would give uh examples of that uh a guy coming out of playing and maybe a skill development person and all of a sudden they're they're a general manager of an organization. You know, what are some of the perspectives that you have from that perspective?

SPEAKER_02 6:33

I I think I had a great um, you know, life works in crazy ways, right? Like you don't know what you're getting into oftentimes until you're actually in it. Um, and I worked after college in financial services for a number of years, and uh and then I had that bug, right, to get into coaching. And one of my good high school buddies, he got the head coaching job at my high school and he said, Well, I'd like you to be my assistant coach, and it kind of just snowballed from there. But, you know, then another friend introduced me to the junior program, he was operating out of the Jersey Shore Arena. His name's Oak Tai Armagan, and uh he got me to coach with him. But the skills that I possessed working in financial services and being able to talk to people and and build a rapport, they really helped me with um you know operating a junior franchise because you know, at the level that I coach, if you can't identify kids, build a rapport, recruit kids. Um, and we do a lot of recruiting at the junior level. I don't really recruit at eight U or 10U. Let me make that make that abundantly clear. But um that really helped me and gave me a different skill set than other coaches had. Um, so you know, for people that are transitioning from playing to coaching or playing to managing, um, it's not just about what you can do on the ice. There's a whole whole number of skills that can really transform the type of person that you are and really make an impact in what you're doing.

SPEAKER_03 7:55

You know, one of those skills in hockey that we'll talk about. And I do love that you talk about how uh the the we'll say the real world affects the hockey world in terms of, you know, you can take a skill set from anything and apply it to the game. But when we actually talk about the game, Andrew, one of the topics we seem to bring up every time uh we have someone with your expertise on is hockey IQ and the lack of hockey IQ in youth hockey. So again, you played college hockey, you've been around the game your whole life. We love to ask this question, right? What is your kind of definition of hockey IQ? And then how does that differ from some of the the hard set uh the hard skill sets like the shooting, the passing, the skating? Uh, because we we all know it's something that I don't know if lacking is the right word. It it it's it's not developing like it used to. So, what are your thoughts on hockey IQ and how do we start in getting it back into the game?

SPEAKER_02 8:46

Hockey IQ to me really is about finding space. You know, if you're in the offensive zone and you don't get a lot of pucks on your stick, it's probably because you're not finding space, you're not finding areas to be open, you're not finding ways to get the puck from your teammates. And I think that a lot of that is because kids don't really watch that much hockey anymore. You know, if you're watching, I mean, it's kind of like it's embarrassing, but you know, I would plan my week as a kid uh around the devil's schedule, you know, like so I could watch all the devil's games. It's not embarrassing at all. You know, and and we had sports channels, so I'd watch a lot of the Islanders games, so then they got MSG and I'd watch the Ranger games, so maybe that's embarrassing, but um I watched uh I watched a ton of hockey, and I think that with kids these days, they watch clips, they watch brief, brief videos of plays, but they don't know how the play develops, right? And that's where hockey IQ comes in, being able to find space, get open, and then implement that into your own game.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

But they only see success, right? I mean, they're they're only they only really seeing the successful plays. Like I think hockey IQ comes from the failure after failure after failure. And I think you to your point, like when you see a clip of somebody doing something, like, oh, that was easy, like that that person just did that. And I think they we forget, you know, we we talk about this on the show, and I know what you do, you know, on your social media side and all the teaching stuff that you put out there, you know, it's all about like the development of the skill and the play, not the end result of the play. Like the end result is just the cherry on top. It's like what happened from the goal lined up. And I think that's where, you know, we that's that really where we miss a lot of that in our education with the kids because we're not speaking the same language anymore.

SPEAKER_03 10:30

Yeah, I want to say too, this isn't just limited to kids, right? And and I'll always when anytime I'm critical of coaches, I always say this. Most of you are volunteering, God bless you. That the the the what we're discussing is to help you get more tools. I don't think coaches do a great job of teaching this either, because we are also focused on the end result of a goal uh or the or the score. Um, uh, you know, not all the time, folks. You know what I'm trying to say. Like it's easy to get lost in that side of the game. You want to win, you're competitive, but the drills we do at practice and then the breakdowns of plays that we do in games to me is lacking a little bit too. We don't talk enough about the kid who maybe set the pick in the defensive zone to allow the puck to get out. We don't talk a lot about the really great breakout pass or the really great decision with the puck on the way out of the zone, or the lack of blue line turnovers, or the immense amount of blue line turnovers. These are things as coaches we have a responsibility to teach, right? I also wrote a note down here too, uh, Andrew. I love that you talked about I it's not embarrassing you scheduled your week around games. I did the same thing. And I for any kid listening, I want you to try and understand this. It's important. I'm not gonna sound like an old dad band here for a minute, but listen, we had almost no access to what video when we watched the game. The access was whatever was on live TV, and then the begging that ESPN might show a highlight, which they rarely did back at that time. All right, you have unlimited access, kids and coaches to footage, unlimited, dating way back. It is such a resource if used the right way. If you're just doing short highlight clips, they're fun. And I'm not telling you not to watch them, I'm really not. But if you don't see how that play developed, like everyone here is saying, you're missing out. Andrew, I remember going to used video stores and scouring the VHS section to try and find any NHL highlight films, which they did put out back then. You get a couple a year, or Don Cherry would put out a highlight reel. Uh, you know, but you're right, like watching those was the best way to teach yourself in a way, right? You know, it's funny is that um the highlights back then were very different than the highlights. A highlight back then might be a tow drag, right? Right, or I remember when like Peter Forsberg and Pavel Datsu came in the league and unbelievably talented players, but the truth is they they they evolved the game that you see these moves now every single game. But when when Forsberg would come down and deke three people, it would blow your mind back then. It was it was you know, and then I saw at by in the Stanley Cup final, we're recording this on June 8th. I'm seeing this by both teams almost every shift now. What we saw back then.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

Hey, listen, when I when I grew up, if you went over the center line when you were a right winger and got into the left-hand lane, you got sad for a period. So I mean, yeah, the the the everything is different, you know, it's a definitely a different uh mindset and and watching and the evolution of what we got to see. And you know, and I think there's zero, uh, from from your perspective too, uh Lee, from coaches to players, there is zero reason not to have a higher level of hockey IQ now than ever before. There's more access to every bit of data that you want and and pieces of the game. It's just a matter of are we using that in the right way and are we pursuing it? And you know, and what Andrew does too, which I love, are is we are we following good coaches that are going out of their way to find these things and presenting them out there. Yeah. And I think that's where pushing the science forward. Yeah, the right follows are important because you're getting the right information back.

SPEAKER_03 14:11

I'll I'll say this last thing that I'm gonna turn this into a question, Andrew. You know, Mike, you'll have this, Christy, too. You too. I was explaining to my kids the other night what two-line passing was. All right. And and again, for the for the audience listening, it's a fun little exercise to explain this to your kids. And they both went, but why why would they do that? Why would you have that rule? That probably sucked. I said it did suck. Okay, but but it it's it's funny how much the game evolves and changes. Now, Andrew, the question to you is this like so when we talk about how to coach hockey IQ, um, you know, Mike uh uh maybe a year ago made one of the greatest statements on the show of why does every drill have to end with a shot on net, right? And then we talked about how drills can end in a decision, it doesn't have to end in this, like there's an ending to the drill. What are some of the ways you provide hockey IQ education to kids or coaches within your organization?

SPEAKER_02 15:02

Yeah, I mean, we we follow a lot of USA hockey models with ADM and our um station-based practices, but then we like to finish with a lot of small area games. Uh, one of my favorite small area games, we call it the tire game. Um everywhere in the country they call it a different game, but there's three sets of tires, and it doesn't you got you score points by moving away from the fuck away from the puck, finding space, passing through those tires, you get a point. You can't pass through the same tires consecutively, and it really creates you can do it at any level, pretty much like 10 U pass. You can do it with anybody. Um, kids really have to think the game, they got to find space, they got to get open. When they lose the puck, they got to find a guy and defend and get a stick in a passing lane. Uh, so small area games are a great way to um to teach hockey IQ, but also um doing things that are kind of like you know, we have run a free street hockey program every single May here at the rink. Um we buy the t-shirts, we have uh no offsides, we have no real teams. The kids come whoever they come uh for that particular day. We divide up teams and we play for about three, four weeks on every Sunday night. And and the information that kids get from that street hockey, in terms of, you know, even the eight-year-old kids who are just getting into full ice games and now they got to uh switch ends between the second and you know, in between the first and second period, street hockey is such a great way to uh to teach teach finding space and teach hockey IQ. I love street hockey. I do too.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Yeah, I agree. I'm gonna ask you this question, this coming from a hockey mountain perspective. So, what I'm seeing now are a lot of kids putting enormous pressure on themselves. So, how is a parent do you help balance it? You want to build their confidence, but you don't want them to have unreal expectations either. So help us strike a balance there, Andrew.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

Yeah, that's a tough question. Every kid is, you know, and you guys talk about it on the podcast how every kid's journey is different. Every kid is different in terms of their maturation from you know pre-adolescent to now becoming, you know, an an adult. And I just think that the less pressure we can put on our kids is the better off they're gonna be. You know, we have to instill confidence in them. You know, I had my my son Baron, uh, he had a really good couple of years as like uh six, seven-year-old. So, you know, there was stuff going on here at our rings, so I moved him down to the Seacoast Spartans for a year, and he had a good experience, but it wasn't the same. He wanted to play around his friends and he hated the hour car ride. He liked you know, the 10-minute car ride. So we brought him back to uh playing on his local, playing on his local team, and he's starting to thrive again. And you know, sometimes those little things, just making sure the car ride is fun, making sure that he's playing with his friends, like those those things make a huge difference. We may not think about it, we may just be thinking about the on ice product and the coaches they're playing for. But for a kid to develop, he's gotta have a good time, he's gotta have a good support system around him and a good culture that like supports one another. Those those things are the hidden gems of hockey.

SPEAKER_00 18:12

I'm so glad you said that. You're right, they are hidden gems, and you got to value them when they come along.

SPEAKER_03 18:18

You know what's funny, guys? I remember growing up a 45-minute drive being the long drive, and now that's like the regular drive. It is. We have kids, we've had uh parents, I should say, on the they're they're driving an hour and a half for some of these things. And I look, I always say this too, Andrew, to your point that if the kid wants it, like if you go into whatever a higher level organization and it's an opportunity and your kid really wants it, that's great. But if it's the parent deciding and you didn't even confer with your kid, that always scares me a little bit, right? Like one of one of the pieces of advice, Andrew, I'd love to know about your experience within a junior program with this. One of the pieces of advice we we get asked a lot via email from our listeners, and you all know who you are, about should I go to this organization or that organization? And my first comment back is always, what does your kid want to do? And I'd say about 60% of people, and this isn't this isn't a bad thing. I love the people that respond, say, you know what, I haven't asked them. Um, and it's like that's where you got to start. Okay. And I know there's a fear of, well, my kid might pick the easy thing. Your kid may surprise you, all right, with what they want. But at the end of the day, it's kind of up to them with you know, you know, what is kind of best for them? You can cultivate the love, you can't create the love, and you got to have that conversation with them. But Andrew, I'm sure in your line of work, especially at the junior level, you're probably asked that daily, not just not just you know, monthly about where do I go? What do I do? Where's the advisor? What college? What should I play? Uh, what are some of the questions that you get in that junior program? The high-level power questions that maybe are not the easiest to answer.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

Yeah, you know, that conversation's changed a lot. And the I've been in the junior stuff for like 15, 20 years, and the conversation has really migrated. It used to always be about it was league-based, you know, that was my opinion. It was always like EJ or AJ. That was the two biggest leagues here on the East Coast. And then the NA came into our uh into our region maybe about seven, eight, nine, 10 years ago, somewhere in that ballpark. So we, you know, being that we were committed to our our league or leagues for for such a long time, we tried to just change our model. And and you know, Tim and I, Tim Kunes, who's co-owns the Wolves with me, are really skill-based coaches, development-focused coaches. So we wanted to create the Wolves being a unique program in that landscape that focuses on development and getting our athletes better. So, you know, we do two practices a day, one skill practice a day, our team practices in the afternoon. We have our own gym, we do have our own video room here at the rink. And that kind of takes away some of the conversations about oh, what college can I go to or what league should I be in? Because the kid sees value in, oh, I can get here and I can get 10 to 15 hours of practice time a week, and I can get better. And those are skills that never leave you. So that's that's what kind of we just chosen to focus our business on.

SPEAKER_03 21:15

And then kind of moving forward with that, you rebuilt the junior program. Like you said, you've been there for a long time. I'm interested in the thing that separates your program aside from the hockey, you know, the the culture, the standards, the communication, the leadership. Um, I think in the younger age groups, sometimes these are undersold as, oh, that's for the later time period, that's for the higher level programs. And I do not agree. I think that standards start from atoms. Uh now, again, I don't have the same standard for an eight year old as I do for an 18 year old in the sense of certain aspects, but you will be here on time, you will adhere to a certain code of conduct. Things like that don't change. How did you inject that into the program that you rebuilt?

SPEAKER_02 21:57

Yeah, so that's a great question. Um, you know, when Moved up here about 12 years ago. Uh it was the Laconia Leafs, which you know, Mike knows Will Faye ran that program and they did they did well when they first started out. Then kind of things got really difficult when they moved leagues and they didn't have quite the same success. But the one thing that they really did was they integrated with the community. Uh, they did a ton of volunteering and community service stuff. So, you know, you fix the things that are broken, right? So we felt that we wanted to keep that community-based concept where we have fans in the building and we have these different projects that we're really involved with each month that can kind of like get our kids in front of our our audience and they're doing good service work in the community. Um, so we we kept that going. And then we just kind of improved some of the recruiting and and and how we were developing players. And then when we took over the youth program about three years ago, we saw that stuff going so well. And so many parents were asking us, hey, can our kids be involved with this or that? So we just kind of moved them into that too. So, you know, we'll have our learn to play program, which is the only free learn to play program in the state of New Hampshire. Uh, we have that program running, and we'll have 10-year-olds helping out our six-year-olds on the ice. We'll have a 12-year-old or 14-year-old helping out with our first-time skaters. And it creates that stickativity where kids want to be involved in that, they get more ice time, they want to be on the ice. And it also is it's good for everybody. Um, so it requires more work for sure, but like I got time.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

I think I think it's I think one of the things too, uh, you know, that Andrew does up there, which I thought, you know, uh talking to Dave Starman, and and you know, obviously I know that that region very well from my time at Plymouth State was like just the the the way the community really rallies around those kids that do help. And I think all of us that have been involved with junior hockey know the benefit of like the Billet family, of the of the big brother, big sister type programming, you know, the opportunity for you know, a six and seven and eight-year-old to see an 18-year-old, 19, 20-year-old, you know, young man playing hockey. And that might as well be, you know, a Boston Bruin up in that area. Like they don't, they don't differentiate between uh the the level of play. They just differentiate between does this person really want to be out here and be with me helping me develop? And I think that's one of the definitely one of the attributes of junior hockey, um, especially in the United States, is the need to develop that community, correct?

SPEAKER_02 24:32

Definitely, definitely. And and you know, Dave, his son Ryan played for us for a year, uh, did a great job. We loved having Ryan with us. And having Dave and Shereen up for like every other weekend wasn't too bad either because he'd bring me up bagels from from New York, which is uh something I miss up here in New Hampshire. But one of the you you you hit on a really important thing. It's um, you know, billets, billets. My my goodness gracious, there's so many junior programs in this, in especially in our kind of space at the kind of pay-to-play level, and they just put them in in big houses or they do dormitories, and they're missing the boat on that. I I really think that billets are great for the kid, great for the community, great for the kids that live in that house. And it you might have to work for it, you might have to kind of really you know spell out to some of those parents what that experience looks like, but everybody benefits from the billet experience when it's done right, and there's so many um so many horror stories from you know animal houses with junior hockey programs that we we stay clear of that stuff.

SPEAKER_03 25:34

Well, I'll mention too, real quick. I have seen a lot, a lot of NHL players in the Hall of Fame speech credit their billet family, including Wayne Gretzky, for helping them shape into the person that they are. Andrew, if that's not the greatest endorsement for what you're saying. None of them go into the boys in the animal house back in '82. I wouldn't have been here without you. You know why? Because those guys didn't end up making it most likely. You know what I mean? But no, you hear I've heard Wayne Gretzky again, I would almost love to use him as an example. Uh, but like you hear him talk about these families that took him in, keeping in mind he was like 14, 15 years old when it started. Um, I agree with you. Like, we're shaping human beings here. All right, all of it matters. And if that's not at the forefront of your development strategy, the human being, you you are failing these kids. And they are kids, whether they're 18 or 8. All right. If if the conversation doesn't go through your mind of how is this going to help them become a better person, I think we fail them completely. And and just so you know, in doing that, you'll make them a better hockey player, almost always, right? I don't I don't know people who follow that. Oh, you gave it a good try, Chuck, but you know, we only made you a better person. Like nobody thinks that way, right?

SPEAKER_00 26:52

So just thought yeah, kudos to the billet families out there. I know a few of them. You've done wonderful things for both your family and for that hockey player, too. But let's talk about Andrew, the path to junior hockey. We get that question all the time. What does it take to get there? What kind of qualities do you look for as you're evaluating a player? What makes the difference in getting to junior hockey?

SPEAKER_02 27:20

Sure. Well, you know, every like you guys have talked about, every path is different. Um, we try to like look in places that are kind of underserved. Like we've, you know, every year we go out to the Czech Republic and you know, there's some of the systems in those um Central European countries like Latvia and Czechia don't have really well-developed junior models where they take a 16 and 17-year-old kid and they can play against their peers. Oftentimes they're playing against adults in the uh professional leagues or lower-level professional leagues over there. So we've done really well with recruiting a number of really good Latvians, uh, a number of really good players from the Czech Republic, uh, and that's kind of bolstered our roster. Uh, very few of our kids are really from our surrounding area because you know, Laconia is the biggest town in the area, and it's only about 16,000, 17,000 people. So we really have to go outside to find these players. And, you know, we used to go to a lot of USA hockey camps, like some of the affiliate and district camps, that was a great place to find players. Um, you know, your all-star games with your high schools are great places to play find players, but over the last two or three years, since we've really developed our youth program, we've gotten a number of good every year, three or four kids that can be part of that culture and can really can be can build around those players. So every player is different for junior hockey, but uh you can they can come from all places.

SPEAKER_03 28:43

You know, I spent some time in Europe, Andrew, and one of the things that was interesting to me was when players would move around between countries or even uh around regions, there was a group of people that would be upset of why aren't you just taking our local players? Now, you just made a very good case for why that's happening. But I do want to ask the question for the people at home that would probably be asking this question well, are if we're not developing the people at home, uh, what are we doing? And that's not an accusation at you. Uh, it's an honest question, right? Because there are places for everybody to play. What would you say though? Is that it, is that, hey, maybe we need to develop kids better, or that's what youth hockey is for, not so much junior hockey. Where do you stand on that?

SPEAKER_02 29:25

That's a tough one because we don't really have that problem per se. Like we are a very small youth program in a very small rural area. So if you're good enough, we give you the opportunity to kind of continue and play your game. Um, but for those areas that are more diverse or more populated, um you know, there might be more to that story than we know. Like sure, we try to recruit kids who have good body language, they're who have good or good character, you know, are good both on and off the ice. So sometimes if if you're getting a local kid, you might know him a little bit too well, and that might be the reason why you don't want to be programmed. Because all that things, all that stuff matters.

SPEAKER_03 30:06

Yeah, and you uh you also said it too, right? That stuff matters, right? I always say there's two answers to that question. One is what is the organization doing, and then what is what are you doing? Right? Like what what skill sets are you developing? And are we behind? Are we ahead? Uh again, this is a much larger topic for another episode. Uh, but I I love what you said to especially the audience maybe thinking that question is it's probably a little more complicated than you think. It's very easy to point a finger. I mean, but from my point of view, it's it's no different than being like, why are the New Jersey Devils players not from New Jersey? I mean, that's kind of what you're dealing with uh at this situation.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

Like, you know, you always wonder, like, especially at the junior level, right? When you see players that are getting like tendered or or you know, getting signed and they're not getting, and you're like, well, why didn't their own organization sign them? Like, they're right there in the building. And sometimes, you know, just at the youth hockey level too, man, I used to be very offended. Like, I would, as a hockey director, I think, you know, I would get really uh hurt and offended when I see a player leave my program to go somewhere else. And sometimes it was just a reflection of the, you know, maybe maybe we pigeonholed this kid to be, you know, this player, and that person just is getting a different perspective from a different, you know, somebody looking at him differently. And I think that's so important when these kids become 18, 19, 20 years old is that sometimes, you know, them, you know, they get a chance to kind of reinvent themselves and and and and that's what junior hockey allows you to do. It allows you to, you know, jump out of your comfort zone in your community. Maybe you're a good player there, but you get to go somewhere else where nobody knows you, uh, you know, get an opportunity to have a different look, maybe have different uh assignments and different roles. And these are things that you know good organizations do a good job of is identifying those players that can fit in, you know, at the junior level. It's not all about like the top 20 kids, you know, one, two, three, four, five. It's like, what are you doing? How are you playing in a role of this team? Because this team is made up of this type of player and this kind of lineup. And that's just that's a that's a that's a really hard puzzle to fix sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 32:06

And we should mention, too, I think there's an important distinction here, especially for the younger hockey families listening. Junior hockey is a different level of development than youth hockey. Junior hockey is not youth hockey, and I think sometimes there's not the distinction there. Like junior hockey is the next level of development, or a I should say a next level of development after youth hockey. We we merge the two together because junior players can be pretty young sometimes, right? But the truth is this we always say there's no one path, this is a path, right, Andrew?

SPEAKER_02 32:37

Yeah, and you know, I would say that in terms of the Latvian players and players from Europe that we've gotten, um, they're just really excited and appreciative to be here. So when we get a player like that who takes extra reps and is on the ice more than he, you know, takes every available chance to improve his game, and we're comparing that with a local kid who may be a good player, but we've seen him, you know, not get those extra reps, not work hard in in his off-ice workouts. So sometimes that familiarity almost gives us too much information. Um, I remember when we were, when I was making a decision after I graduated high school uh and had a chance to, I could play locally for the, you know, at the time it was in the Metropolitan Junior Hockey League, the New Jersey, the junior devils, or I could go to New Hampshire and play up here. And my dad said, you know, I think I think you gotta go. I think you gotta you don't want to stay local. He said it's an opportunity to like meet new people, build a new network, uh, play in front of different people. And the kids you're gonna be hanging around here are the kids who, you know, don't have that same ambition or just gonna go to community college or get a job. So um I'm I made that decision. It was one of the best decisions I ever made.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

I bet you've had a lot of those moments where you've just step back and you're in awe and you say, Wow, this is why I do this, especially when you've helped develop a player from another country. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 34:03

Yeah, and you know, it's funny, like everybody has their success stories, and some of our success stories aren't kids who played pro hockey, they're kids who came here, developed, and then we helped them. And we had one kid, actually, he's a New York kid, this kid named Jake Drucker. Um, he had played up in Canada for a junior program and then was looking to play his last year in the States, and he came to us, and you know, he had some different opportunities, but he was kind of looking at some low-level division three, and I don't say that with uh to criticize those programs, but he was looking at some lower level division three because that's where he could play. But we looked at his academic transcript, and he was he was an Ivy League candidate, like his grades were phenomenal. So we steered him from going to a low-level division three player where he could have been in and out of the lineup to going to NYU and being uh an ACHA player and having a really good experience, and then he ended up getting his law degree from U Penn, and now he's he's flourishing. So I think I think those life decisions, we try to do the right thing for our kids in making good educated decisions for the rest of their life rather than just like just making a purely hockey decision.

SPEAKER_03 35:19

I love that answer. Uh because that really is development, as we said as a person, you know. Um, and I always joke to say, like, if that if that irks you, what he just said, uh I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 35:31

Oh, my heart so happy to hear that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:36

You know what, you know, um Christy, I should say it like this. If I was if I if I was faced as a father with your my son going to an Ivy League school, yeah, or potentially playing, we'll just say Division III NCAA hockey. Now, me personally, there's a there's a version of me that's like, oh man, that's a tough one. But at the end of the day, it's uh it's not tough at all. You you send them to the Ivy League school once once my own ego gets out of the way, that's a pretty easy decision.

SPEAKER_02 36:04

So Jake was a remarkable kid. The year before he came to us, he had he didn't disclose to me. I'll say this, he had a knee issue. He had an infection in some kind of I forget completely, but he ended up getting a needing a whole knee scoped before he even came to us. And I said, Jake, you're kind of you know, you're not in the shape of you. I expected you to be. And he's like, Well, coach, I was up for three months with my knee surgery, and it was like, Oh, okay, okay. And then he ended up, his father passed away in February of our season. And he went home for the weekend to grieve his father, and then he came back to his teammates and helped them in the playoffs. Just a remarkable kid.

SPEAKER_00 36:50

What a story. What a story. Yeah. Now let's listen to your story. Uh, you wrote Beyond the Scoreboard. Tell us what inspired you to write that and tell us all about the book.

SPEAKER_02 37:04

Sure. Well, thanks, guys. Um, this is, I think it's my sixth or seventh book. Uh, some are hockey related, some are some are not. But um what I found is that you know, there's there's so much that goes into hockey, and hockey should be the framework for kids who love hockey, the framework to teach you about life. And beyond the scoreboard is about leadership, it's about some of those experiences I've had with certain players, some of the experiences in my own family that made me and made those around me the types of people that we want to be. And um, you know, there's chapters about you know, culture, there's chapters about overcoming adversity. Um, and I'm really proud of the book. And one of the stories I I talk about is is my Aunt Virginia. She's a big Buffalo Sabres fan, and she um dealed with a tremendous amount of loss that I didn't find out until really she had passed. Like she had lost a child um when he was a toddler. Her husband died when he was relatively young. But meeting my Aunt Virginia, you would have never known that she had any kind of this, you know, these horrible life-altering tragedies because she was always happy, she was always focused on the next day, she was always supportive of the family, and she had a tremendous amount of community resources with friends and family up in Buffalo. So um, I try to make it really personal in terms of those kind of stories.

SPEAKER_03 38:28

Yeah, we've all got a story to tell within hockey, too. I love that you shared yours, Andrew, because you know, I think a lot of times people feel like, well, my story is not that big of a story. Truth is, we all learn from each other. We're we're all trying to push the science forward, right? And I always joke about academia, like it's it's called the study of medicine, it's called the study of other things because it doesn't stop, it doesn't end, right? Uh hockey and the relationships within hockey are no different. And and I would make the argument too that when we look at it from a youth hockey standpoint, and Christy is a famous author with this too, uh, we can read as many NHL biographies as we want. I'm a fan of those. The truth is this if you want a youth hockey, you got to read about youth hockey. You got to read about the experiences within the level that you're at. Um, and I think that every year that we continue, we we learn and we grow, and it's kind of on all of us to make sure that we're pushing that forward or pushing back when needed. Um, I spoke a few times about parents in this episode. I always love to ask uh high-level coaches this, you know, from your vantage point, uh, well, how do you deal with parents, if at all, at the junior level? And just what's your thoughts on parents within the game? I'll keep you in mind that the audience for this show is exactly the audience you love, right? They're here listening, they want to learn. Uh, but but we all know uh a parent or two that maybe push that from time to time. So, how do you what's your thoughts on parents? How do you deal with parents? And do you have any advice for parents? Sure.

SPEAKER_02 39:55

Well, you know, I coach the junior stuff, but then I also have my son playing, so I generally coach an 8U or 10U team every year. So I get kind of like snapshot of like the before and the after in parenting. Um, but what I found was the the most difficult level I I ever coached and interacted with parents um was 16U. That was really a tough level because parents had they weren't, they were still building, so they were weren't like they didn't see the end of the road, like their kids were right in the heart of it. And they all had ambitions that their kid would be a division one player or a professional player. That that hadn't passed them by yet. Um, so that was a really tough level. Uh, I had a lot of like uh just I got more emails that those two years than ever else in my my coaching career. Um, the 10U and 8U kids that I I coach, those parents are generally pretty good. We set a standard of you know the 24-hour rule. We have a preseason meeting in the locker room. So we do all the stuff that we should be doing to make sure the communication is on point. And then our program, our kids get equal lifetime. You know, we're not shortening the bench at 8U and 10U to win a game in September. That doesn't really appeal to us. Uh, the junior stuff, those you know, those can be tough, but you gotta kind of weed those out. That's part of that recruiting, like we talked about. Like if you're got a local kid, he may be the bet leading scorer on the team. But if the parent is emailing every single week, I'm sorry, we're gonna go with a different player at the junior level because we have that choice, and you're buying the parent as well as the player in that same package.

SPEAKER_00 41:35

Yeah, that's important to know, Parrots. I hope you took some notes on that.

SPEAKER_03 41:40

Well, we're all trying to push it forward, Christina. And look, I'll say too that that yeah, hockey can be interesting. You know, Andrew, it's funny you brought up coaching on the bench in those young games um and evening out the ice time. Um, I know just talking to some youth coaches, that that's not always easy. You know, when it's a close game and it's late um and you want to get your best players back out there. And and I would say, look, if you can work it for that to happen, that's great. But if you're if you're starting to shorten the bench with 10 minutes left or eight minutes left in the third in a in a youth youth game, uh it's a disservice. And and I don't love the excuse of well, part of development is then learning how to deal with that. Not yet. Not so much at that, at that age level, okay? Um uh understanding roles within a lineup or being a third or fourth line player that comes down the line. If we're not developing them, we are failing them. But Andrew, you are not failing these kids uh in any way. Uh I love everything that you've said today. I'm gonna invite you to come on to a ride to the rink because I think we've got a level, I'm looking at our rundown. We got a couple questions here that are tailored perfectly for kids. So for the parents listening, make sure you tune into that ride to the rink that's gonna come out uh right after this episode. Uh uh, because I know you listen to this in the car with your kids with your mouth shut, all of you, right? That's what you do. You don't talk over us, you let us talk about it. But uh, Andrew, you've been a great guest today. I can't thank you enough for coming on.

SPEAKER_02 43:00

Well, it's been my pleasure, guys. And it's a real honor, and I love what you're doing for the game uh teaching players and parents the right way to interact with the sport of hockey. So thank you very much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 43:11

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 43:12

Yeah, no, thank you, man. And like I said, we always say it. We're a village, right? Takes a village, and conversations like these are, I think, the gift for all of us, including us, right? That we get to find different ways and different experiences within the game that try and help grow it. So that's gonna do it for this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure you listen for that ride to the rank. I'm teasing it a lot. All right. If you have any questions for us, email us team at our kidsplayhockey.com, or you can text us using the link accompanying this episode in the description. But for Andrew Trimble, Mike Benelli, Christy Catch and Burn, I'm Leah Elias. We'll see you on the next Our Kids Play Hockey. Everybody, take care. We hope you enjoyed this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or our website, our kidsplayhockey.com. Also, make sure to check out our children's book, When Hockey Stops, at When Hockey Stops.com. It's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much for listening to this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey, and we'll see you on the next episode.