From Sweden to Your Rink: My Kid Is the Best on the Team… Now What? (Parent Dilemma Solved)

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Hello, hockey friends and families around the world, and welcome back to another edition of our kids play hockey. This is gonna be a dual mailbag episode with some extra topics. Let me tell you right away, my favorite people in the world are here with me. Mike Vinelli, Christy Cash Out of Burns, talk about an email that we got, a very interesting email that we got. Again, it's gonna spawn an answer to the question in the email. And then it's also naturally going to lead us to talking about several other topics kind of surrounding that, which we're excited to do. So stay with us for the next 40 minutes. Um, I think this is something that's going to apply to a lot of you. And for those of you who think it doesn't apply, it will at some point in the future. Okay, so the coolest part about this letter, which I have in front of me here, uh, is it's coming from Sweden. So we always talk about our international audience. We've gotten an email here from Sweden. Um, the three of us all got a little giddy when we said that. Um, as always, the names have been removed to protect the innocent. Um, but let me read this to you now to get into the episode. Okay, hello, hockey friends. I like that. Thank you for saying that. Um, I've been a regular listener of your podcast for over two years and have learned a lot from both you and your guests. Even the early episodes have been incredibly useful. A bit of context. I am a father of a 12-year-old boy who plays hockey here in Stockholm, Sweden. Like many kids, he dreams of becoming an NHL player. As you know, Swedish hockey development is different from the U.S. No tryouts or selections until around the age of 15 or 16, and kids are encouraged to stay with their original team while focusing on skating and having fun. We followed that path for eight years before switching teams this season. My son plays at a level somewhere between strong AA and low triple A, though we won't label teams here that way. He moved teams on the advice of his coaches who felt he needed a more challenging environment. He used to play defense because of his skating, but in the new team he tried several positions and ultimately settled as a winger, which he loves. He started on the third line, but now he's considered one of the top three forwards on the team. He let in goals, assists, and accounts for about 70% of the team's shots over the last three months, confirmed by both coaches and parents. Here's my question or topic to discuss. How can a player who is already in the top few percent of their team continue to develop when there's no one above them to chase? My son is improving, but I worry that without stronger competition around him, he may slip into a comfort zone that slows his growth. Best regards uh from this person. First off, extremely well written letter. I think it's also important that we let our audience know that in Sweden, if he's saying his coaches have asked him to move, that's that's probably very true, right? Like this, this is not, I didn't take this letter as oh, this guy thinks his kid's the best. Yeah. Like, like if he's writing this, it is probably true. So I want to set that context up for the audience uh because it's a really great question of hey, my kid is really succeeding. I don't know if I can find the talent. What do I do? Gang, where do we want to start?

SPEAKER_03 4:26

You know, isn't this interesting that this is a universal dilemma? Because I think we've all been through that. You know, I can remember in the early days when my kids were showing some promise, their skills were a little bit more advanced than the others, and you hear the whispers and you start to feel the pressure. Oh, they need to be off that house team. They need to be with better players. That's the only way they're gonna grow. That's the only way they're going to get better to be with players who who know how to chase that butt better. The better coaches are at those higher levels. You hear that, but then you take a step back and you it is a case-by-case basis. So you know, look at the full picture. Is your kid in a place where they're developing? Because as we talked about so many times on the show, development is a process. It doesn't come instantly. Um yeah, you want them challenged, but it's not such a bad thing to be the leader on your team. There are a lot of benefits to that. You're gaining confidence, more uh touches. Um, you you also can be a leader on that team, and kids around you, you can help elevate them. So I think you really have to carefully weigh what is the best placement for your kid where they're going to develop. Development is the key. What say you, Mike?

SPEAKER_02 5:58

Yeah, I mean, development always, I I I mean you're you're you're spot on as far as like where what you need to do and and the the challenges as a parent when you have a player that seems to be progressing and people around you are saying they're progressing, and you're seeing other players like, oh that player kind of moved on and they're doing much better in this other environment. But I think you know, uh it let's stick with the I I like the fact that he gave the age, right? Because I think that Sweden is a much different society, as you know, as well as Finland and Norway and and some of the some of the other countries that are at you know have to be in these uh different models because like we've talked about in the past, um, you know, Matthew Michel was a great person to reference, you know, and in the in the size of the organizations and the way they run their development. But like this is the I, this is the like this is what we call back, you know, this is like the Minnesota model. Like, this is the model of community-based programming. Yes, your kid might play out of their group, but there's so many other attributes that come to play. And I think, Christy, one of the things I think that's a little different in the in the in these Scandinavian countries in Europe is that their best coaches aren't necessarily coaching the top teams, right? They really value their best coaches coaching their their their beginner players, right? Wow. So they're I so I don't I doubt that he's not getting good coaching. Okay. I think no matter where he's at, I bet you he's getting a certified, educated coach. I think but the but the point of a 12-year-old boy is a 12-year-old boy. Sure. You have to the gaining confidence, gaining a little swagger, being the big fish in the small pond at this age, there's really nothing wrong with that because the the ultimate goal, like we've said this a million times, is to get him to be a 13-year-old pineal player. So at the end of the day, it I I don't think it doesn't sound like he's bored.

SPEAKER_04 7:52

Right.

SPEAKER_02 7:52

Um, it doesn't sound like he's he's the best player on the team. He's progressing. So how do you keep progress happening? Hopefully, great coaches identify that. Yeah, hopefully he identifies that he's a better player and he can do different things and improve other parts of his game that maybe he wouldn't get to do if he was the lowest level player in a team. Yes. Um, and I and I think I use the example a lot with parents, especially more in the eight and nine-year-old, because that's where you see a big gap, right? In some of the kids, is that is that you know, you can't the old adage used to be to be the best, you got to play against the best.

SPEAKER_03 8:31

Right. I've heard that so many times.

SPEAKER_02 8:33

And the problem is if you never get to touch the pocker play, it doesn't matter if you're playing the best because you're not gonna get to touch the best. Like the big oh, you can't get better unless you get you're with the best players. Right. That is more true at 22 years old than it is at 11, you know, 10, 11, 12 years old.

SPEAKER_03 8:53

But right, and and you think about the the brain of the 11, 12 year old. If they're out there scoring goals, their brain is saying, oh wow, I can score goals. I like score, yeah. I like it. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 9:07

Right. Yeah, and if the player's not bored, again, there's uh I I'll I'll just use one example. I'll just use one story growing up. We had a kid on our team, he probably doesn't mind me saying who he is, but we his nickname was Magic Burke. And Magic Burke was so good, he used to skate down, full ice hockey, nine years old, ten years old, whatever it was. And he'd he and just to challenge himself, he'd skate around the net once before he'd score. So he'd go down and skate around the net. And and then and then I'm like, and I and I'll never forget, like at 14, I'm like, hey, where's Magic Burke? And like, yeah, he doesn't play hockey anymore. He he just never got better. He was a great eight-year-old and just never became a good 10-year-old. And and I think and and I think that like that kind of I I always reflect back on that because me, I was the worst player on the ice. Like I was I was already three, four years behind these kids, right? And I'm like, I can hardly stand up on the ice, and I'm watching this kid like, oh my god, that's Wayne Gretzky out there, basically. And and you know, and then at 14, they're not playing hockey anymore. Um for whatever reason. But I'm just saying, it's it's he's in a really good place. It sounds like if you're this parent in Sweden or in Hoboken, this is a great place to be for your kid because hopefully they're the person that's getting all of the other love from the team and the coaches and the parents. Oh my god, thank God. Yes, uh, you know, I don't know, uh Jan is here. You know, thank God he's here. Yes, he saved the game. And save the game. We're get out there and and and score the game when you go. So there's so many great attributes to it. I I I'm not a believer that I don't think that at this level it's holding anyone back. If it's if it's in the right context and he's getting the right development in there, in his in the training and the practice and all the other stuff that doesn't include just being on the ice in a game.

SPEAKER_03 11:01

Right. And and you guys, we have heard this from even you know, the top NHL players who've been on the show. Being a leader on the team, being a better player on the team is never a detriment to your development.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

Yeah, I want to tell the younger side of our audience too, never to underestimate the influence that Magic Johnson had on anybody playing sports in the 1980s with uh Magic Burke and Magic Mark Johnson. Um, I think we got to start calling you Magic Mike Benelli here, Mike, moving forward.

SPEAKER_03 11:29

Magic Mike.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

Uh for those of you who don't know who Magic Johnson is, be careful of that one. We're PG up on that one.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

We're a PG show here.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

Mike Benelli. Better than Monday morning, Mike. Um, again, if you don't know who Magic Johnson is, go search Magic Johnson, Los Angeles Lakers. You'll find out. Um, I've got a bunch of notes here already, gang. You know, so when I look at this email, um, you know, I I'm gonna I'm gonna address this now a little more bland. So that to the person that wrote the email, I'm not speaking necessarily directly to you here, right? But in general here, right? Um, Mike, you made a great quote there of like to be the best, you got to play against the best. Um, look, there, as you said, there's some truth to that. I think that sometimes quotes like that are always missing something. And I think that the what's missing in that quote is the best competition is yourself, right? And I think that when you start to address it like, well, I have to be my my strongest competitor, that opens up the door for a lot of different things. So one of the first things I want to say here is that if if your kid, and this is to everybody, is really excelling under the age of 12 up to the age of 12, fantastic. My question always is, well, what are they doing away from the rink? What kind of off-ice training are they doing? What kind of studying are they doing? Because in my experience, the kids that separate themselves at the older age, they're not just performing on the ice. This is a character thing. It's what they're doing away from the rink. Are they taking 500 shots a day, forehand and backhand? Are they studying clips? Are they obsessed with the game? My answer to the question is if if you want him to get better and playing against better talent is not there, what are you doing at home? And it's now there's a caveat to this. And I wrote this down, and I'm gonna I I I want to say this again for the person that wrote the email. I'm not saying this directly at you. It's a question that always comes up with me when I get emails. You're asking a great question here. Great question. Is your kid aware that you're asking this question? Does the kid want to know the answer to this question? Is it even on his wavelength of, hey, I'm really good and I want to be better? Right? And it always makes me think about this because I get asked questions from parents a lot, and I'll ask back, what does your kid think? And I'm often uh I don't want to use the word disappointed. I'm just I'm astonished. They haven't spoken to their kid about it, which tells me that this is more your dream than your kid's dream at the moment. It doesn't mean your kid doesn't love hockey, it doesn't mean your kid's not excelling, but your kid has to be involved in that conversation, and your kid has to be the one that steps up to do the training. Now, you again, we always say you can cultivate it, you can tell your kid, hey, listen, why don't we set up a training gym? Why don't we do this? And if they go, yeah, that's awesome, now you're in the right realm. If they go, no, I don't want to practice, all right. Yeah, disappointing, don't get me wrong, but that's their answer at this point. The other thing about 12, 12's a really interesting age. Um, I'm gonna quote we don't usually do this, I'm gonna quote spit and chiclets.

SPEAKER_04 14:28

Uh-oh.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

I'm gonna do it because Whitney said something really profound. He said, Everyone's great at hockey until and and I'm I'm drinking and uh you know other extracurricular activities play into the game. I'm I'm making that PG for everybody, but your kid is gonna go through puberty, let's just say it, all right? And there's gonna be distractions. That's when you find out how serious they are about the game. And I think if you rush a 12-year-old into that environment, there are some benefits, but there are some real problems that can come with that. So I always say, what is your kid doing away from the rink? A 12-year-old, you got to meet them where they're 12. And and to the person who wrote this email, I sincerely hope and I believe actually, your kid is the kid that's working away from the rink. There are so many videos, and I'm gonna I'm gonna use this example of Connor McDavid of Sidney Crosby at young ages just training away from the rank. There are so, especially Connor McDavid, just videos of him at 12, 13, 14 training and training and training and training, and him talking about how he loves to train. He doesn't understand how other kids play video games when they could be training. That's the mindset that makes him who he is. It's not just his talent. All right. I and again, I'm using myself, I loved training. I mean, I created a an off-ice training company, that's what I do for a living because I love training so much, right? But I wanted to do that. It wasn't my dad or my mom that wanted me to do that. All right, so I just wrote I wrote those things down, and then the last thing I wrote here before I throw it back to the group here is you know, this is a resource question. It's like, what are the resources that I have to make my hockey uh um skills better, to make my hockey experience better? And uh look, I'm gonna quote Tony Robbins now, right? To quote show, it's not about your resources, it's about being resourceful. You have to create a lot of these opportunities. So find ways off the ice to help your kid develop, whether it's in the gym, whether it's using off-ice training, whether it's studying the game, whether you can find coaches in addition to your current coaches to help you out. Um, if you do not have the ability to move up. But I and I'd also say in closing here that um, you know, FOMO is a really real thing. And and Chris, you said at the top, you've everyone feels it around the globe. Oh, yeah. Um, you know, like like your kids excelling, your kids getting better. That's what I took away from the email. Don't feel like, oh, I have to do these things, so he's gonna to make it.

SPEAKER_03 16:59

Yeah. You don't want to rush the process, you don't want to rush development. And and you think about it, when your kid is scoring goals, you know, blocking shots, uh, being really successful on a team, isn't that itself a motivator?

unknown 17:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 17:20

Are they gonna lose confidence? Are you going to miss out on developing that complete player? I think you have to be careful about switching and rushing the process. Right. You never want to rush the process, as we've talked about so many times before. It's not a race, it's a it's a marathon. And it takes time to get there. But it's really easy for parents to fall into the trap of I gotta hurry up, I gotta push that development along. Don't push it.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

Christy, I'm gonna say this too, and Mike, Mike and I know this. Um this sounds harsh. I don't mean it to sound harsh. Right. If your kid is that good, they'll be plucked by your national program.

SPEAKER_03 17:59

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

All right, like, and I see this in the US all the time. A kid is putting up a hundred goals in 20 games uh at a young age. They they are being seen. All right, and I don't mean six years old, by the way. All right, right. Uh they'll be plucked. You'll be found if you're having that kind of profound scoring. And I I always said if that doesn't happen, that's okay. There are plenty look, Connor Hellebuck, let's talk about him, right? Never played anywhere, right? Until I mean it's D he was a double A player. I mean, yeah, you know, USA hockey gold medal and goalie. I mean, you know, his path was very unique, and and they said it, you know, like yeah, I didn't I never played triple A, right? I just worked hard and I got there. Again, it's a goaltender, but he was plucked at some point because of how he was working. It wasn't because he played for a triple A team. And there's more than one story like that, believe it or not. Mike, I love your thoughts on that too.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

That you know, the top talent gets plucked. Plus, he's a monster. I mean, the guy's a monster. He's a monster. Everybody's over there like, oh, nobody knows who this kid is. I rather keep stopping pucks playing, keep playing on the on the on the on the negative A team. Yeah, yeah, right, right. What are you gonna be? Let me see your parents. I think so. I think there's all that there's like there's there's so many nuances to this conversation only because of the environment we're getting the question from. Because it really is a different environment. Like this sounds like this player in New England would have been probably probably moved to four different teams by now, like in in in in you know, from nine, 10, 11 years old, because of the hopping around. So it's almost like this is what I see, right? I see a kid that comes from an A program or a double A program, and they and in three years they get so good they want to go to the next level, like the greener grass. And my and my first initial question usually is well, well, how did you get that good? Like, why are you why are you breaking the development model you're in because now you think you've outlasted the development model? Maybe the reason why you are this good is because of the model you're in. I think that's where in Europe we see this, right? Is that the model they're in is the best model for the kids. And they know, and and the coaches know, it sounds like they they've gotten a handle on this, they know the kids ebb and flow in age groups, and all you're doing is really tweaking that kid to go, okay. I guess he's not going to, he's not going to a different country to play hockey. He's just going to a different team that is allowing him to play with the same level or equivalent players in his group. And I think we in our region rush that. We rush it so much earlier, but we also have it in a way where you don't have like it in Sweden and Norway, they have one or two options. Like where I live, there's 17 options, and everyone's selling you the same option. You know, so so that you know, in different parts of the world, it's like, oh, okay, you're better now, you're gonna go to this team, and then you go back to this team, then you go to this team, then back to this team, or you progress, like Lee's talking about. Then at some point, the national program sees you and you're you're showcased in that way. Here, some kids don't even get seen because they've they've gone to six different teams in six years, so they've never really gotten a foothold on development. Although they're they're better than the kids in their age group, there becomes a ceiling that you can't go through because that development ceases to exist anymore.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

You know, I I'm gonna throw like a little monkey wrench into this too. Um, Mike, that was these are great points. And again, I I want to say what you said again. Different countries have much different development models, right? Like, like so if you're in America or Canada right now, drastically different, right? But here's a little monkey wrench. I talked about being resourceful, right? Um, I'm looking back at my own development and and the process that I had to do. One of the things that I did that had massive impacts on my ability, and again, I don't know if they have this in Sweden, but I would go to open hockey sessions with with the adults, all right. As young as I think 12 or 13 years old, I really mean that. And when I got out there, I was playing with men, I was playing with adults, and I learned a tremendous amount just from playing with these guys. I also had the place to try new moves and to try new things. I and I I can this is gonna sound funny to the younger kids, but you know, I remember the first time like really working on tow drags, which at the time I played was not um, yeah, it was not like a big that that was a huge move when I played. Like that was a Michigan level move when I played. I mean that. And I remember trying it open hockey and failing and failing and failing, and then I I pulled it off against the best player on the ice. Wow, and I remember like thinking it took everything I had to do that, but I did it, yeah. And man, did that build my confidence because not only did I do it to someone who was like 21 years old when I was 15, sure, but now I'm playing against people my age again. So I always say open hockey is one of the best resources you can have if you can get in. Now, the other side of that is this. Um, and I I'll thank my dad for this one. You know, I didn't go to open hockey at 15 as a cocky 15-year-old, ready to show up all these uh college guys and adult guys, right? I was told to be very respectful. And I introduced myself to these guys, I made it apparent how much I love the game, you know, and I told them I'm trying to learn. And when when one of them would do something amazing out there, I'd go up to them and I'd say, How'd you do that? Can you show me to do that? Those guys adopted me, they wanted me to learn and they taught me. Lot of things, and here's the other thing, too. They were not light on me, they had no problem throwing me into the boards. It was funny to them, right? Just they you know, they're they're way bigger than me at that age, right? So, you know, that's what I mean about being resourceful and finding ways to to teach yourself the game. Now, again, I I don't know what uh Swedish hockey, I'm sure there's open hockey there as well. All right, but there's two points here finding the the places, finding the access to learn, and then I'm gonna say it again my attitude, my my professionalism helped me out, right? People wanted to teach me because I clearly wanted to learn. I think that's a skill we're not talking about enough, actually. Now that I bring it up, right? Like coaches want to coach, right? If you come up to me now, as a like if I'm out there playing and a kid comes up to me and wants to learn, man, I want to teach you, and I'm not just talking about coaching right now, right? You want to send the elevator back down. So maybe find those people, right? Or find those opportunities for you to get on the ice and try some things, right? Uh, because that's a really safe environment. Now, the the the caveat to this, right, Christy, this is where I know you want to talk about this, is that I think there's a lot of people that go, well, what about just playing up to the next age? Yes, right. My kid's 12, maybe he should be playing 16 years. Um, there's a lot of thoughts on that because it here's the thing if that's not a definite no, all right. Um, it's also not a definite yes.

SPEAKER_03 24:57

Right. Carefully weigh this one because let's talk about this. Um moving up like nine-year-old to 11-year-old. There's differences on many levels, sizes, um, the physicality of the game. It's a physical game. You know, is your kid going to be able to withstand the physical uh advancement of that game, emotionally, mentally? I mean, it's going to be with older kids. That's another factor. Um, are they mature enough? Um you have to really carefully weigh playing playing up, because playing up is not always all that it's cracked up to be. You know, you might feel a sense of right. Oh, look at my nine-year-old. He's playing with a bunch of 12-year-olds. Okay. But is he an impact player? Maybe at age nine, with kids his own age, he can be an impact player, but you move him up, all of a sudden he's not.

SPEAKER_04 25:53

Right.

SPEAKER_03 25:53

He's a follower. He's not a leader. Um, and that could maybe set them back developmentally. I think you have to be careful.

SPEAKER_02 26:02

Yeah, there's so many, there's so many, um, there's so many pieces to this too about playing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:08

Let's dissect.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

And because it's like, you know, I remember as an admissions director for a long time at the high school, prep school level. I used to have um a lot of parents that would like, oh, well, like my my son can come here and play as a ninth grader and blah, blah, blah. You know, I think, you know, no problem. I go, yeah, but I mean, do you I said, do you know what 12th graders do in the locker room? Like, do you know what they talk about? Like, do you know what kind of life a 10th grader is different than 11th and 12th grader? And it's the same thing with a phenom, you know, mite playing squirt or squirt. Like, if your squirts playing with pee-wees, and maybe those peewees, maybe those 12 you kids are getting phones for the first time, and your son doesn't know what a phone is. Or like there's there's all kinds of pieces in the development. You talked about maturity, but it's also just the fact of um what I find a lot is sometimes these kids have like this sense of entitlement, and the parents, because they're playing up, and me as an or as a board as an organizer with boards and trying to make these policies, I'm always I I I fall on the side of if a parent is threatening you to play up, or they're gonna leave, then have them leave. That's how I look at it. I'm like, because they're gonna leave anyway, because they're because they're you're never gonna be good. If that's the threat, or the question might be, hey, what are you gonna do for my nine-year-old right now? Because they're one of the best, they're the best player on the ice. We feel the only way they're gonna develop is to play up. And then I can rebut with that is is well, okay, what about if we did these nine things? Like maybe this is how you get your player better. And Lee alluded to it earlier. It can't just be about the 60 minutes between the boards. There's all other aspects of development that can happen for your kid. And within your age group, you can you can build those pieces out. Is it challenging? Is it hard? Yes, it is. Yeah, is it easy to say, oh, best player, move them up? It is easy. But there's so many, there's so many parts, especially in small organizations, right? You move that kid up, and now you just took a roster spot from a kid, you're not getting back later, and then all of a sudden, now the next year you go, oh, we thought we had 12 kids, now we only have 11, and those two kids are leaving anyway. Now you don't have a team at 12. Like, so it's it's all these things that like program directors need to look at. But I think from the pure standpoint of watching a player, and and I I will say this with a lot of confidence, I've probably had thousands of these conversations because of all the programs I've been with, there's always a big percentage of kids that want to play up.

SPEAKER_04 28:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

Especially, especially when AU hockey came around, where the American development model started mandating cross-ice hockey. All these all these little eight-year-old parents want their kids to play up because they they need them to play full ice. And the only way to get the full ice is to play a year up. And so we would have all these conversations about the development, and and more times than not, that player that demanded something from that piece were players that weren't with you anyway the next year. So don't like so A, if you're an organizer organizer or a parent or somebody that's running a team, don't fall for it. And if you're a parent that thinks your player has to play up, maybe look at do your do your parent checklist and do your pros and cons, like Christy said, and say, okay, pros. He gets uh to play above his uh his weight. Cons. The kids in the locker room are you not gonna like them because they think because he's a little kid that just took their friend's spot and he thinks he's hot crap. So you know, so just be aware of those dynamics and what and what different age groups have uh in relation to how they're treated, uh, because that's your you know your responsibility as a parent, too, to put them in a good place in the locker room where everybody feels, not that they're equal, right? But that everybody feels respected in that in that environment and and safe. And uh, you know, and that and that you can trust that your your your your main goal is that the player performs well, gets better, and has a good you know, good relationships within the team.

SPEAKER_03 30:10

All right, let's do this. Let's put it on the record and let's be clear. Mike Lee, true or false, a younger player has to advance in order to get better. Lee.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

What do you mean by advanced?

SPEAKER_03 30:22

True or false?

SPEAKER_00 30:23

No, no, but what do you mean when you say advanced, what do you mean? I want to clarify that. Have to get moved up a level?

SPEAKER_03 30:30

Yeah, moved up a level. True or false. Younger player has to be moved up in order to get better. True or false.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

No, that's false.

SPEAKER_03 30:37

False. It's a myth. Myth.

SPEAKER_01 30:40

Just making sure I'm on the same page.

SPEAKER_02 30:41

We are mythbusters on this. We're doing mythbusters today. We're using everybody else's, we're using everybody else's platforms today. Yeah, it's it's uh yeah, I think I think you're right. It's a it's a myth. Are there exceptions? Like everything else, there are there always are exceptions. But for the most part, uh an eight-year-old that wants to play up and the reason is because they need a challenge. I buy that very, very little. There's a there's yes, there's there's very there's very there are kids, no doubt about it, that they probably you could make a good argument that because of where they are, they're bored playing in that age group. But for the most part, you could find a way around that boredom.

SPEAKER_01 31:18

Well, look, let's let's just talk about some of the exceptions because I think what we're gonna find is very few of them have to do with talent, right? They have to do with circumstance. So, like, look, I I I can use one from my team that I just coached this year. Um, the roster was short. Okay, 10U team had a short roster. Um, the the Might program had extra kids. We pulled two kids up, all right. But that made a lot of sense, right? It was a necessity. We needed to have players to fulfill our roster. These kids uh showed the talent that they could maybe hang. We had to coach them up. I have to remind myself that those those kids were seven at 10U. All right. So there's some challenges that come from that from a coaching standpoint that we have to acknowledge. But okay, we needed to fulfill a roster. We have the the players at the younger age to do it. That is a discussion worth having. Okay. The discussion was not my daughter's good enough to play on this team. That actually never came up. All right, was we need two more players. So that's one. Okay. Um, another exception, and and it's not so much playing up, but it's playing to a higher level. I know, I know a young man uh who was a third-year squirt, all right, just happened to work that way. Um, you know, he started in squirt early, and in I can tell you that he he had started to outgrow the talent level of the team he was on, so he moved from a tier two team to a tier one squirt team. That is an appropriate move to me. He made the team, he tried out and he made the team. I don't have a problem with that, and he's playing at a higher level of squirt. That's not necessarily moving up to another age. Okay, those are the only exceptions that I can think of right now that make sense. It's really just the one. All right. Um, I think that you know, the other thing you got to think about, and Mike, you and I know this as coaches. Oh man, parents, it is a nightmare for us when one kid moves up or two kids moves up, because now every parent thinks their kid should be moved up. So I understand why there are some really strict rules within organizations about you gotta play at the level you're at, um, you know, unless there's an extreme circumstance. All right. Um, and again, look, I would say this too adversely, kind of my mildly hypocritically. All right. Well, let's just do squirt to pee-wee right now. Sure. If there's a squirt player that is scoring a hundred goals and he wants to move up, his parent wants to move up, and it's so obvious that he is or she is light years ahead. I I do think there's a discussion that can happen there. I'm not even saying they should do it, right? But I think there's a discussion because organizations do have a responsibility to develop the players to the best of their ability. All right. Now, there's a lot of things with that. Like who's the coach? Where's the coach? Do you need a player at that team? I would never move up if you have a great coach. If you have a great, great coach that's really teaching you the game, don't go anywhere because they're gonna learn more from that coach than if they just go against older players. Um, last thing I'll say on this too. Um, some some exceptions to the rule. All right. Spring hockey, summer hockey. All right, now my kids don't play in the spring, but if you do spring hockey or summer hockey, that's a time to maybe toy with this a little bit. It's much lighter, it's 10 games, right? If if you feel like you can get your kid into the older, like sometimes spring hockey has has broader age levels, too, Christy, right? Like, so sometimes they'll put uh squirt and pee-wee's together.

SPEAKER_03 34:45

That's true.

SPEAKER_01 34:45

They do. So it's like now is your chance to kind of test that out, see how they do against the older kids. All right, because it can be really intimidating for a kid to be playing up with older kids. This is going back to the early part of the episode. Have you spoken to your kid about this? Does your kid want to move up to the upper level? All right, because I I know parents that have just thrown their kids for the wolves, yeah. And and here's the thing sometimes they say, Well, my kid performed, he was terrified. He was terrified. Well, that's how you build them. I'm like, that's a burnout, and they quit when they're 16. Yeah, all right, exactly. Be we're just be careful with that, is what I'm trying to say.

SPEAKER_02 35:25

I think as an organization, too, don't you you have to really let you've got to let go of a player, like say there's a player that's a that's a 10 a 10U major, right? Uh second year score, and they're really good. And and the inclination is you're moving them up to 12U because you don't want them leaving to go to another program's better 10U team. And and I I think you really gotta weigh that. Like that, like I don't think moving up is the answer. I think going to the age that the player is in at a better program for the player is is better. Um, I think. But again, these are things that you have to struggle with when you're in a depending on the size of your organization, where you have to say, uh, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna go against what I really think because I don't want to lose the player. And I will say from experience that a lot of times it actually goes the other way. It's let the player go. Right. When they get to the right level and they feel like they've they've they've satisfied uh the level they're at, they and and your team ends the next year is better, they come back. And I and I, you know, so it a lot of times to what Lee was saying earlier, uh as a just look at it from an organization's perspective, because there's a domino effect. When you do it for one, you have to do it for all, or or you have to fight the fact that you didn't do it for all. And then you have like I've I've had listen, I've had situations where you know uh parents have had kids in like like a like just for this year, right? Say you had a 2019 and a 2018, or a 2017 and a 2018. The 2017 this year would be a squirt minor, and then the 2018 would still be a mite, but you might say, Oh, the parents are like, well, we can't swing this, like this is impossible. So can the player play up? Because the player obviously can't play down, right? So that is something you have to think about and you you weigh and you say, okay, well, this family, you know, they they they wouldn't even be able to play the sport uh or logistically make this work. So there's always there's always circumstances, but I think the the I think the overall uh goal is well, A, two things. If you're a parent, if you're a non-parent right now listening to this and you're planning on having kids in the future, don't have your kids so close. You gotta spread them out. And then you don't have to worry about it. It's all you don't have to worry about. Get the hockey, get the hockey calendar out and figure it out. And you know, don't have kids during like spring breaks and things like that. But if you but if you but on the other side of this, if you're uh you know, if you're looking at the big picture, just understand like that organizations have to look at this as well for the health of their organization, their team.

SPEAKER_03 38:07

Right. And again, I go back to I know it's it's so easy to want to hit the gas pedal when you see that your kid is excelling, right? But then I go back to asking that question, what's wrong with your your kid being the star and let that star shine? There's nothing wrong with that. It and teams need kids who are talented and be leaders and can can challenge the other kids on the team. There's nothing wrong with that.

SPEAKER_01 38:35

Well, Christy, I'll I'll tell you this that the moments that I had where I decided that this game was gonna be my life, right? And I hope you know what I mean by that. We're on that that team that you just spoke about. When I was fully confident and fully into it, that's when the dream really grows, right? When I was struggling, it's not that I didn't have the dream, but it's it's tough. It's like it's like it's a grind at that point. Yeah, the the cultivation of the dream comes from those moments, yeah. Right. Um, I want to say these two things before we close this out, too. You know, um it's a it's a great question from this person. I really hope we've we've given you some things to think about here, obviously. But uh this is my promise as a coach, right? And I'm gonna say this very, very clearly. If I see a kid that is excelling so much and I truly believe they are ready to move up the next age level, I will say something, and I have. And I'm gonna tell you all listening, that is insanely rare that I feel that way. Okay, it's insanely rare because I think your kid needs to develop at the age they are at for a reason. Okay, um, it is so rare, all right? But I it's not impossible, all right? And I'm gonna echo again what Mike said too. It is very hard for us as coaches to make lots of exceptions because it's a great way for people to leave your organization as well. Yeah, there have to be standards, all right. And my hope is if we move a kid up, most people are gonna look and be like, oh yeah, well, that kid had to move up. That that kid has obviously has to move up, right? It's not someone on the fringe, it's not it's not someone on the bubble, it's someone that is so good at that age that and they have the maturity that we feel that this is gonna make sense, and we still may not do it. We still may not do it. All right, so just just some things to think about, you know, um, with that. The last thing I want to tap on here before we end this, I always like to bring this up. He wrote early in the letter, like many kids, he dreams of becoming an NHL player. I love that. I love that. All right, those dreams, you know, I don't, I don't, I always say those dreams are so important. Yeah, I've always said to parents, you do not have to support the dream, but you have to support the right to have a dream. All right, do not tell your kid you'll never make the NHL, nobody makes the NHL, there's no point. Don't take the dream away from their kid. We all know the numbers and the chance of that happening. But if you take the dream away, why would they go through anything to struggle and try and be better? You are teaching your kid not to try when you tell them not to strive for their gym, the dream. You can tell them there are no guarantees, you can tell them it's insanely hard. You can tell them it's gonna take an unbelievable amount of work and you may not make it. You can tell them all those things, but also tell them it is worth trying, it is worth giving your all because if you have a dream, you should pursue it. All right. I think the mistake that was made with a whole generation of kids was they were told you can accomplish whatever you want. And that's what they were told. All right. Again, you can accomplish, you can pursue to accomplish whatever you want. There's no guarantees, but that's your right to try. You will get so much further trying than if you don't. All right. Christy wanted to be on the news as a young kid. I am so sure as a young woman, they told you there's no way it's gonna happen for you.

SPEAKER_03 42:05

I did my guidance counselor said that you will never pursue, you will never see this happen because kids from our part of the neck of the woods never got to be television news anchors. That's what we were told.

SPEAKER_01 42:21

I have walked the streets of Syracuse with Christy, and you cannot do it without someone stopping. Are you Christy Cassiano in the news? Yeah, Mike, you were told you'll never have a life in hockey.

SPEAKER_03 42:30

It just motivated me to go chase that dream, you know. Right.

SPEAKER_01 42:34

Well, I bet you had some support, right, from people telling you to chase it, right? Mike and I were told there's no future in hockey for you. I was told about there's there's there's no future. You're never gonna do anything in the game. Well, luckily, fortunately, I had parents who really supported me pushing through with that. And I had good people, right? So I just I just always have to say that. Like, good on this guy for saying my kid has a dream at play in the NHL.

SPEAKER_03 42:56

I love that.

SPEAKER_01 42:56

All right, he didn't hide that, right? And no one's judging you if your kid doesn't make the NHL. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 43:02

Nobody, nobody judges or the PWHL.

SPEAKER_01 43:05

Yeah, thank you, Christy. Very good point. Wherever you want to be, be in the Olympics, whatever. All right. Any final thoughts before we close this out? It's been a great episode.

SPEAKER_03 43:12

Yeah, I do. So every hockey season, you are gonna see, you know, late bloomers and early stars and everything in between. You as a parent need to just step back and look at your kids. Are they happy every time they step on the ice, eager to play hockey, can't wait to play. Then you're on the right path. Trust your gut, trust your child, trust the process, and let them have fun.

SPEAKER_02 43:41

Yeah, it uh ditto. I just I think it's just I it's just so hard. It is really difficult not to chase and and and and look over the fence and do all this kind of stuff. It's really just um enjoy really, really enjoy the process and and the and the opportunity to watch your kids play. And and it'll take them where they want to go. And you know what? There's gonna be there's gonna be some that are gonna go to play professionally. Great. Um, but the but the bulk of us aren't. And uh you just gotta make sure they're still good people and they and they remember that their their youth hockey experience and sporting experience was fun, and they and you know, hopefully uh, you know, they're gonna pass that on as well and and move on to the next generation of hockey players. So I don't know, it is a very difficult, and especially we're we're we're doing this at a a really hard time of the year for hockey families and and with tryouts and ID skates and everybody pulling the superstars in different directions. Um you know, again, just step back, look at the big picture, look at your kid, and and I think have have an uh have a conversation with them as well.

SPEAKER_03 44:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:55

Well, and I'll I'll I'll close by saying this. Um, and you know, like I I can speak for Mike and I as coaches here. And Christy, I'll speak for you as a parent because I know you so well. Um, it is my sincerest goal and responsibility to want your kid to succeed. I I take a tremendous amount of pride and and and put a tremendous amount of time in my coaching because I want your kid to get better. That's always the win for me. So uh if you Have a coach that's doing that, it's dedicated to your kid, and a coach that clearly wants them to get better. You won the lottery a bit here. Because I I can also say that is not, unfortunately, that's not across the board, what I just said. There are coaches that only care about winning. Okay. Uh at at 8U, which is yeah, but there are there are less there are less of those.

SPEAKER_02 45:47

There's less there's very few. And I think there's like this is like the like the bad apples of parents, right? They're not every parent's great. There, there's there's there's a bunch that are uh, you know, that you'd rather not have a conversation with. But I think that was nicely put, Mike. But but for the but for the for the like to Lee's point, I mean that the the vast majority of coaches love being out there working with your kids and want to see you get better. And don't forget and the few that don't. They are who they are. Uh Christy, we've had many episodes on fire beware and know what you're getting into before that happens. Find great people that like your kids and want to teach. That's it. Doesn't matter if they played the NHL or played rec hockey or never placed on a pair of skates. Just find people that really care about your kids and want to see them develop and find a coach that says, like, I don't want to be your last coach. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 46:42

I love that. If you want to write us a letter like this and have us talk for 45 minutes about a topic of your choosing, please feel free to email us at team at our kidsplayhockey.com or find the link accompanying this episode in the description. Let us know your name and where you're from. Uh, sincerely, folks, we love getting these emails. We we want this to be a community-led show, and it really is. So thank you for that. But that's the episode for Christy Cash, Anna Burns, and Mike Benelli. I'm Leah Lias. We will see you on the next Our Kids Play Hockey. Have fun, everybody. We hope you enjoyed this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or our website, our kidsplayhockey.com. Also, make sure to check out our children's book, When Hockey Stops, at When Hockey Stops.com. It's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much for listening to this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey, and we'll see you on the next episode.