What NHL Scouts Really Look For in Young Players with Former NHLer and NHL Scout Patrick Rissmiller

SPEAKER_03 1:15

This episode is powered by NHL Sense Arena. Hello, hockey friends and families around the world, and welcome back to another edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. I'm Lee Elias, joined by Mike Benelli and Christy Cassiano Burns. And today's guest is a great reminder of something that we speak about often on this show that there is more than one path in hockey. And more than one path to success or a future or however you want to define that word. Patrick Rissmiller is here today, and he grew up in Massachusetts, played at prep school, he developed his game at Holy Cross and worked his way to professional hockey despite going undrafted. And over the next 13 years of his life, he built a career that took him through the NHL, the AHL, and Europe, playing for organizations including, you've heard of some of these, the San Jose Sharks, the New York Rangers, the Atlanta Thrashers. Kids look that one up if you don't know what it is anymore. And the Florida Panthers. Now, since retiring, he's continued to shape the game from a different perspective, spending seven seasons as development coach with the New Jersey Devils before joining the Anaheim Ducks as an organization scout, right? So we're talking to a scout today. So I know that always perks your ears up at home when we're talking to a scout, uh, NHL Scout, right? So today we're going to talk about development, opportunity, patience, and what what young players and families can learn from a career built one step at a time. Patrick, welcome to our kids play hockey.

SPEAKER_02 2:44

Thanks for having me. Excited to be on.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

I think I think Patrick, you know, when you when we talk about development, we talk a lot on the show. Obviously, there's all different reiterations of what development is. And I think for most of our listeners, we have listeners from all over the world, but basically like on the east coast of the United States, um, and definitely in the northeast, right? I think you took what I would see as a like a traditional path. You know, a a player that went to prep school, a player that went to college, a player that then, you know, obviously took that opportunity and and played uh in the NHL. Uh but can you just talk about like how that those steps um you know kind of built your career and the different things that helped you along the way uh because of the steps you made? I mean, the the the landscapes, and we can talk about this later, right? The landscape's definitely changing and and and shifting a little bit. But I think for a typical player in the Northeast, you know, going leaving high school, going to prep school, going to college, you just talk about how that shaped you as a hockey player.

SPEAKER_02 3:44

Yeah, I think in my era that was kind of the path, private school or even public school hockey. Um, it really started because I was just in the local public school, but I was very young for my grade, and I uh I grew very, very late. Um so it was a chance. I think my parents just they knew they knew better than I, right? At that time, uh just to get me in a little bit more of a structured environment, uh school-wise, academic-wise, um, you know, a little more structure um as far as study hall and things like that, and give me an opportunity to to grow. Um I really, I mean, I didn't, I'm 6'4 now, but I think I was about 5'2 entering high school. Um I have an 11-year-old right now who's entering sixth grade next year, who is bigger now than when I was in ninth and tenth grade. So it kind of just delayed things a little bit for me and gave me a little time, I guess, in a sense, to catch up. Um, and then at prep school, you know, the colleges I was looking at was Holy Cross was at that time in the Nescaq. So it was Nescaq schools, Colby, Trinity, and and in those schools. And uh the coach Paul Pearl at Holy Cross was about the only one that was willing to kind of give me a little nudge into the school. And um, and that's why I went ended up there. Um was really nothing more than that. He was just kind of the only one that really wanted to take me on, uh, give me a chance. So I was, you know, obviously thrilled um and jumped on that opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

Right. I think that's a great lesson for kids too. Sometimes all it takes is one person to believe in you, right?

SPEAKER_02 5:32

Exactly. Exactly. You know, it was, I just remember going back a little wishy-washy with some of the coaches. Um, truth be told, I picked up lacrosse later in high school and was getting a little recruited for that too. But uh hockey was always my love, uh, first love. And like you say, you just need one person or one champ to give you the opportunity. So um, you know, it was a great school, it was a great place, and I was excited to jump on board. Um, they happened to be going division one my freshman year, but that really had zero to do with my decision to go there. It was it was just the only place that was really wanting to have me on board.

SPEAKER_03 6:08

You know, we we talk a lot about uh belief as uh not just a powerful tool, but a skill, right? In the sense that uh we just all said it about the coach's belief pays off for all the coaches listening. Uh that's a very powerful uh thing that you can give to your players, belief in them. I think sometimes, especially in youth hockey, we don't understand that enough, right? We're so focused on kind of good stuff, right? Development, trying to push the team forward. Uh, sometimes just a kid knowing how much you believe in them can really help them believe in themselves. And and Patrick, I imagine we're again, we're gonna talk about a lot of the things you do, but just from a strict belief standpoint, I don't know too many players that accomplish professional hockey uh without belief in themselves, correct? Like that's something you have to have if you want to succeed, really in anything in life, right?

SPEAKER_02 6:59

Without question. I mean, it's it's a life thing. Um, it's beyond hockey. Um, but I think when you go back, you know, you talked about the youth stuff. It really is a lot of times just giving the kid a pat on the back and telling them they're doing great, even if they made a mistake, right? Because you want them to feel good about themselves, you want them to keep coming. And you know, the older you get, the the more mature you get. Um and you know, it's very it's helpful. I have three kids at play now. I'm very conscious of that. Uh, a 13-year-old daughter and two boys, 11 and 9, and no matter what team, it's it's always encouragement. Um, I'll try to correct them for sure, but they're just young kids and you want them to feel good about themselves. And as you get older, it's important.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Yeah, that is important. Um, from belief to development, Patrick. Let's talk a little bit about that, especially for all the families who are just trying to figure things out right now. Um, you've seen players develop, probably, I would think, at every level of the game, obviously. So, what do you think is the biggest misconception families have right now of how players actually improve?

SPEAKER_02 8:05

Oh boy. Um, I think in today's world, it's like you have to be yeah, yes, exactly. I think you know, everybody thinks you got to do more, more, more, more, right? Um, especially the young ages. I always attribute it to like the kids, my age, the ages of my kids. Um, I just think that's a big misconception. And if they do A, B, and C, it's gonna pave the way for college and spend X amount of dollars. And I I just think it couldn't be more wrong. I every kid's gonna develop at their own rate, at their own path. Um, I'm a huge proponent of multi-sport, um, taking a break, riding a bike, you know, whatever it is, playing the backyard, wiffle ball, going to the field. It all for me is kind of cross-training. Um, but I just don't, there's no there's no ingredients, you know, there's no one way to do it. Um, and again, the kids all develop at a different rate. Um, and I do the scouting now, and I watch, you know, college hockey all year long. And there's kids that are 18, there's kids at 23, and they're still improving, they're still getting better. So I think a patience is a big thing. Um, you know, I kids, you know, raising kids, you have to be patient, right? They're you know, they they they crawl before they walk, they walk before they run, they hit kindergarten in first grade. And I think in the sports world in general, everybody just thinks they can fast for hit fast forward to it all. You know, but there's no rush. There's no rush.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

I do I do have a question just in regards to like your and I don't want to go off kilter here, but just uh and in regards to your like your ability to look and your job, right, is to project, is to look at a player, because everybody knows who the best players are. That's easy, right? Everybody goes, oh, that's the best player. There he is, he's always been the best player. And I think you know, for you as a scout now, and somebody that's watching a player, can you just talk a little bit about how important it is then, like as you're projecting, as you're looking at a player, those core abilities. Forget about like you know, personality and and all that kind of stuff. Because sometimes sometimes they're just looking at the player. But the but you could see, right? You could see core structural ability of a player very early. And then when you find out, oh, they play, they're probably the best baseball player in their in their town, they're the best lacrosse player, they're the you know, they do the most uh other things outside of the sport. They're not just the kid doing power skating, you know, four days a week in the morning with a private coach. Can you just talk a little bit about how important that is for parents to understand that when you're projecting a player, you're probably not looking at the player at 14 and 15, right? You're saying, what's this kid gonna look like at 23? Like that's really where it's gonna matter for me as a professional.

SPEAKER_02 10:47

Right. I mean, that's what I'm doing in college hockey. Obviously, the age range is big, 17, 18, up to, I mean, some teams 24, 25. But I think, you know, when I'm watching, it's you know, people can see how skilled the player is or how great a skater they are. Um, certainly you're watching, you know, how they their their demeanor, how they carry themselves, and how that how their work ethic is. But you know, you'll have kids that are are you could just kind of see maybe they're a little tall and a little lean, they're just kind of a little bit raw, scratching the surface, um, that type of stuff. Um, but I you know, I think in the world of sports, I think generally your better athletes are the ones that eventually kind of rise to the top. Um, you see that a lot, I know in football, and these guys don't they're not even playing organized football till 10th or 11th grade. Um, you know, in baseball, because I think it all the more you can do, right? You you know, every it all is is tied together, right? You play baseball, there's hand eye. You play soccer, you know, it's what are you doing without the balls? Same in hockey. What are you doing without the puck? So so you know, you're working on footwork and all those. So I think there's times you can see the athleticism. Um, times, you know, I did some development work and I had definitely came across some kids that were I'd say a little bit limited because their athleticism was a little bit limited, you know, not a hard time adjusting and adapting to certain situations, right?

SPEAKER_03 12:15

I was gonna say not to continue my reign as the king of the metaphor, but I always look at this like like baking something, right? So it's like making a really good cake. You can overcook it, you can do too much to it and make it horrible. You can also not pay attention to it and undercook it. But the truth is this when you're making a cake or you're baking anything, it takes a lot of love, takes time, you got to know what you're doing. You learn to know what you're doing by baking other things. The cake probably has other toppings. There's a lot of things you need to do to get that cake to be good. And here's the funny part speaking of scouting, the cake can look really good, but inside it can be complete crap if you didn't take your time and develop it the right way, right? So I always looked at this as the same way. And by the way, no two cakes are the same, right? Everyone does it a little bit differently. But the goal is you put a lot into it, a lot of different things need to be learned, and a lot of different things need to go to make that thing as good as it can possibly be. You know, I wrote down here too, I think when it comes to youth development specifically, there's a lot of times I see that people using life as a vehicle to grow a hockey player, and it's the other way around. It's hockey as a vehicle to grow you as a person. And I find that people that focus on it that way and sports in general, right, tend to tend to have a little bit more of an open mindset. Bake better cakes for the sake of the metaphor here, right? And I think that that Patrick, to your point, right, it's it's not one thing. And Mike, you said you can do power skating four days a week. You know, I know kids who do that, and I know kids who take the summers off and they're better skaters, right? Not that I'm saying you shouldn't be getting the extra skating in, but I'm saying, like, you gotta meet these kids where they're at, and that if you're if you're putting their whole life into hockey at a young age, not only is burnt, not only is burnout a massive potential result of that, but you're actually robbing them of of the other experiences they could be having. So I think it's about making a well-rounded person first, and should they show extreme athleticism, you know, then then walk down the the path, and or I should say, the opportunities that come with that, right? But it's like let me ask you this, Pat. Like in scouting, I mean, and I do not know the answer to this. How many athletes come through that were only hockey? It's all they focused on. That was the only thing that they did. Their parents were loaded and they gave them every opportunity in hockey. How I mean, is there a percentage of players like that, or is it as you're saying?

SPEAKER_02 14:37

I you know, I don't know the the numbers. I think it's more like certainly there's more of that than when I grew up. Um, I still do think that some of these guys that might have got pretty invested in hockey are still excellent athletes. And if you give them a basketball or you give them a bat or a sock, you know, they can do some pretty good things just having maybe not played as much.

SPEAKER_03 15:01

Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

I think most, you know, many I I've seen, I've come across that maybe that it's not three sports, maybe it's hockey and lacrosse or or whatnot. Um, but you know, I don't have a number. I just think there's more players that have done more as a child than like I did. I I was not I grew up in Massachusetts, and my family and I spent our summers in Maryland, so we weren't skating. Um, but like you said, I I think you know, you step back and why are the kids doing sports? It's not to go pro, it's not for a scholarship, it's for life lessons, it's for social reasons, it's for health, um, mental health, you know, physical health. Um, and I always go back to, you know, they're kids, you they have to have a childhood and enjoy it. And eventually, like, you know, if you're good enough, you're gonna be found, whether it's for college, whatever, or pros. Like it, it's you know, a different era, nobody's hiding under rocks anymore. And and it really, you know, if you get into high school and you're playing wherever it is, whatever sport, a freshman year or high school, and you, you know, you're you're just completely dominating, then you'll probably find another place to play, right? That'll give you a little put you a little bit more on level, whatever sport it is. I think um, so yeah, just don't I think that's there is value in doing some extra, right? There's more availability that you know, the ice is down everywhere every year. If you want to dabble in a little something extra, there's nothing wrong with that. But to your point, I think that it just gets to be burnout with the kids, it's just non-stop, and then they hit 13 or 14, and it's like, eh, I don't really love this. I'm just kind of doing it. I'm gonna try something different.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

I think that's why hockey gets such a bad rap and and and justifiably sometimes. But you know, it's not like other field sports. Like you could take a really good, like I do a lot of lacrosse, right? I could take a really good soccer player that understands the game of soccer, and at in tenth grade, I can turn that kid into an all-state lacrosse player. I mean, it's just it's just if they if they're a great, if they're an athlete, right? If there's somebody like a basketball player, a football player, a soccer player, a lacrosse player, all these field sports that all like that's why other parents look at it and go, Well, you people are nuts. Like, yeah, yeah, well, you're nuts too, right? But but I think it's like a different, it's a different way because we can do different things with field sport kids and and and court kids than we can with hockey. The differentiator, because of that, the skating and the ability to be able to skate. Um, but paradoxally, right, it's it's well, you can't be a great skater unless you are really athletic and can do all these other things with your body. So if you try to do that too early, um then you're stunting the player. But can you just talk a little bit about like when you like I guess I guess what I'm getting at is like you're you're as a development coach, right? And and as you're getting into the world of working with at this point, you're working with the best athletes in the world, basically. I mean, what are you really doing? I mean, you're already working with the best kids, right? So what are you doing to fix or tweak or help or support that player who's already the best player uh in you know, the the one percent kid already in the world of hockey?

SPEAKER_02 18:06

Well, when I was working with doing the development stuff, I mean it was really just you know nuances, where's your stick? What are you thinking? Um, you know, they're in a team environment, so they're practicing daily, you know, but sometimes it's like another voice. Um, and not tied to, you know, when I did that, I wasn't tied to your playing time in the American League. I had no say really, it was it was let's try to help you all around so you can reach your goal of getting the NHL, which was video work, um, positional stuff, um, details, you know, stick, skating, and you work a little bit some before practice or after, but you know, sometimes it was just also just to be another voice, you know. The coach says all these things, and hey, look, I I don't have any say in what you know, how much you play or not playing, but let me help you out a little bit and see if we can help your game out a little bit and you can, you know, get to where you want to be.

SPEAKER_01 19:02

I mean, is that is that where that like that that total athlete then becomes so important, right? Because the ability, like if you're talking to a player at that level, they have to be able to mentally understand what you're even talking about, about space. And you can and you could when you change like a player, like okay, let's just use an example for one of our athletes, like like how are you playing off the wall? Like, what are you doing with your body to protect the puck then but then put the put the place, and that's the difference, right? In a player that might play in the NHL or not, is how are you working the wall and how are you protecting yourself, and how are you making yourself available or giving the puck to somebody? Sometimes players might not learn that, right? Their whole career, they might just get to you for the first time a coach has the opportunity to take them out of a team format, but they have to be able to take that, right? They have to be able to understand what you're even saying to them because it's not just pure skill that gets them where they are then.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

Right. I mean, I you know, I the best athletes are gonna pick up on stuff pretty quickly, whether you're you're talking to them about it or they're gonna learn. They're gonna go through some experience once and know what to change and know what to do. I, you know, I think going back even to the youth stuff, there's everything and across the board. I coach soccer in the fall with my kids, and it it's so much individual skill work. You know, it it's it's constant. And, you know, that's not really the game as you get progress, right? You know, the the world of hockey gets awfully small when you're out on the ice with 10 people that are six foot two and above or six feet and above, right? So what are you doing in the smaller areas? And soccer is the same thing. You know, the World Cup's on now, everyone's watching. Where are you without the ball? Where is the space? Where are you going with the ball? Um, and that's why you know it all helps growing up.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

It does help growing up. I I love the discussion on development you get back to that, but I need to hear about your career. What a career you have had. Okay, let's talk about some of the most exciting moments you had in the NHL. Let's hear it.

SPEAKER_03 21:05

Don't don't be shy on the overtime though, Patrick. Uh we all we all saw that.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

I want to hear it. I want to hear it. I'm so excited to be on this show with us.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

You know, to be honest, I grew up playing all the sports, uh soccer and hockey and baseball, really. And then I switched to lacrosse. But I always wanted to play in the NHL, um, just like most kids. Um, you know, again, sophomore junior high school, I was probably the smallest player out there. But as you get older, you're, you know, you start to see a little bit more, and you think maybe not. But I was at Holy Cross, and then, you know, I was just happy to be playing college hockey. Um you know, at the then at the tail end of my senior year, as someone said one of the teams, the sharks were actually gonna come watch me play. I thought, okay, great. And I don't know. Long story short, I I thought I was gonna go play in the East Coast for a year, and if I liked it, keep going. And if I didn't, I'd have to get a job, right? That's kind of the way it went. But went to camp at a tryout in San Jose, uh, just a tryout for and I was there for two weeks and earned a contract in the American League. So, you know, as far as playing professionally, certainly making the team uh off a tryout was great. Um, you know, your first you always remember your first game. Um, I was about as nervous as I could be, but you know, I played about four or five minutes, so it wasn't too too bad. Um, and just you know, being around the guys, you always remember uh the playoff runs. Um, yes, I I scored an overtime goal, but truth be told, it was after I turned the puck over and sat for about a period of overtime. So I paid the price, you know, I turned the puck over, thank you. I was making the right play. So it took me a little time mentally to kind of wrap my set, you know, you know, head around it and kind of move forward. Um was fortunate to kind of redeem myself. Um, but all the playoff runs were great, all the guys you meet along the way. Um you know, there was definitely my first couple of games in the league and traveling on the road, I couldn't believe, you know, the hotels, the planes, and and you know, it was it was I don't know, it was kind of the best. Uh I always say it was the best job I have ever had.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

Oh, I would say, how about coach? Who is the best coach you ever had? How did they influence you? And do you carry that with you to this day and try and pass it on to other kids?

SPEAKER_02 23:22

Yeah, I mean, honestly, one of the most most memorable coaches was probably when I was about, I think, a Pee-Wee, um, a guy in community hockey, just how he taught to us, what he taught us. Um, maybe it was also the fact that that age you're a little bit more aware of, you know, when you're eight, nine, ten, you're just having a good time. Uh, I had a coach in the American League, Roy Somer, who spent a considerable amount of time with myself and teammates before or after practice working. I can re honestly remember, you know, six foot four going into pro hockey, a little on the thin side at that time. Um, you know, was working summer jobs, trying to lift around it, I guess, on my own, but not knowing how much really needed to go into it. But I think for the better part of a year after every practice, he grabbed me and a couple guys, and we'd work on puck protection. Um, and I said every day, pre-game skate practice, you name it. And then, I mean, that certainly helped because I certainly put that into my game as far as using my size and reach to my advantage. Um, so he was certainly helped in my development.

SPEAKER_03 24:30

You know, I want to echo on these things, Patrick, because uh the coaches you're describing are great teachers, right? And I think the coaching is teaching now. Uh again, disclaimer, I I believe coaching at all levels is teaching. Obviously, at the professional ranks, coaching is a different job uh than it is when you volunteer at youth ranks uh or even collegiate ranks. And um, you know, I think there needs to be an understanding of that for the audience. But at the end of the day, coaching is teaching. And no, I love to teach. And you know, one of the things that I realized coaching at virtually every level. I mean, I've I've had coaching jobs where I'm paid to win. I've had coaching jobs where it's like, let's just get these 10-year-olds to get better at playing hockey. Uh, and I found that I love to teach. And you said something earlier that I want to pull a thread on for all the parents, kids, coaches listening out there, about how the athletes that kind of learn the fastest tend to tend to succeed. Um, I think that's a major skill that we have to help our kids with because sometimes there's pushback. A lot of kids don't want to make mistakes. The whole game is about capitalizing on mistakes. I always joke with my players that if this was baseball and we had an error stat in hockey, everyone would have about 200 a game, right? There's a there's a reason we don't have that stat. Um, and that our tactics are built to create mistakes, our tactics are built to capitalize on mistakes. That's the game, and life's very much like that too. Um, the other thing I wrote down here, and I love that you brought up like puck protection and things like that. Uh, and I'm really speaking to the coaches now, right? Never ever assume your players know anything. All right. There's been I learned this early on in my coaching career that, well, yeah, these guys are pros, right? They know this stuff. And it's like I waited four or five games before realizing I don't think they know this stuff, and then started to teach it. And you know, it's funny is that they were so appreciative that that I would take the time to teach them. And I apply that to all levels now. But if if I see something I don't think's right, it might be a conversation first, but I I look forward for the chance to let me show you this. Let me explain you how to lead with your stick, let me talk to you about body positioning. Uh uh you talked about the the World Cup. I just sent my players on a the national team that I coach this really amazing video of a defensive structure, and you can see all of the players moving in unison to defend an area and they have lines connecting them. It's really cool. I love that type of stuff and sharing it again using multi-sport. So I just want to kind of again pull the thread on this again. The the it sounds like the coaches you admire were great teachers, right? And I'm sure that is applied to how you approach the game now, too.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

Yes, without question. I mean, you know, the NHL is a business of winning, right? So you've got to win, you know, coaches, they have to win, players, you know, and I lived, you know, I'm I consider myself kind of a fringe NHL guy, third or fourth line guy, where you know, those guys are probably more expendable, um, right, than you know, your $10 million first line center. So, you know, you always had to be ready to play. You you walk the line, and and you know, there were times where hey, you know, what do you I didn't play well enough and I sat the next game, right? But that's the NHL, and that's where you've got to win, but you get paid a lot of money to win. And I think when you get down the American League, it's there's yes, they want to win, but that development often wins out over, right? You might, you know, you might lose the game in the American League because you're working on some kids to try to improve them on the penalty kill, and you get your penalty kill wasn't great that night and you lost, but you're trying to develop players for the next level, right? And then, you know, I go down on the youth level. It it's about development, it's not about winning games. Um, you have no idea who's gonna pan out, you have no idea who's gonna continue to play. In your job for me, I do the same as a teacher. If you have, you know, whatever, 15, 10-year-olds, you've got to develop all of them. Right. And you can't develop them by having a power play unit and the penalty kill you. Um, and I always I do use the teaching analogy. I'm not a teacher by trade, but I, you know, when you send your kid to fifth grade, the teacher teaches the 20 kids. It doesn't just pull the 10 best play kids and say, we're gonna work with you in math and everyone else, you got to figure out on your own. Um, it's it's exactly how I see it. Um, so when I work with all the kids, I try to help them all out. Um, I do think I, you know, have a lot to share with them, but you know, it's a time and a place. A mite and a squirt and a peewee is certainly a lot different than a high school and a college player, you know. You and um, but I think, you know, even USA, they've done a good job with some of that small area stuff. That's gonna teach you some of the hockey sense, the puck protection, uh the agility, the skating, the stick handling, reading the play. Um, and it's all kind of right there without having to get like, you know, spend hours trying to practice playing, right? Um, but I think every year you might keep my daughters, you know, 13. So I've given them a little bit more, the teams I've coached every year, depending on what level they're at. Um, but it still has to be fun. You still have to work with all of the kids. Um I I think that's we don't have trophies in our room. I get it, and it's fun when you're a kid, but when you look back on it, you're like, I don't really re- It's not that important.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

I think I think that's why it's so important. I mean, we talked uh on this show uh uh ad nauseum about the kinum, you know, communication to parents and setting expectations and and and and understanding like like I think there's a there's a there's a core group of people like that care, like to say, well, my kid's the best player on the team. I just want him to be with all the other best players. Like I don't care about the other players' development. But I think from your perspective, Patrick, you know, especially seeing in your community, you know, kids that you would never imagine. You look at them like seven and eight years old, you're like, oh my God, it's it's barely, I'm barely putting this kid on a team right now. And all of a sudden they're 16 years old, 17, and they're the best player on the high school team. And I think it's just that that the the the ability to wait and the ability to just you know teach everyone, is that the do you what like what are what are some of the things you do as a coach? Um, notwithstanding the fact that you play in the NHL and people should just listen to you, right? But it's still you're you're selling these parents all the time on the fact that there is no reason to rush to have a 50 and oh season at nine years old because it doesn't matter at all. But how do you how do you tell that to a parent that's all they that's uh that that is all they know is nine-year-old hockey, right? How do you convince them that that it it doesn't matter later on? It's it's it's fun and it's important, looks great on Facebook, but it really doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_02 31:00

Right. And and you know, I try to share my thoughts or my education or what my knowledge with plenty of people. Um I don't know everything, I'm well aware of that. But you know, this fall, uh it's been my 25th year between playing and scouting and development. So I'm 47, so more than half of my life at the professional level, I do like to think I have some some knowledge of it. Um, but you know, I I I do generally, even in a coach soccer, is try to set expectations with parents early. Like everybody's gonna play equal. I'm here to try to help all of them, and we're gonna try to encourage all of them. Um, you know, I think there's some time, sure. If your kids out there scoring seven goals a game, then they probably need to move up a level or to another program. But if they're scoring, you know, a couple goals a game, be it soccer or hockey, that's excellent. But, you know, you they're they're kind of dominating, which is healthy for them. But they're not, you know, you know, when you like I said, if you're playing a game, you score seven, eight goals, it's probably too easy, right? It's it's too much. But, you know, if you're very successful, that's what you want. Um, you know, I work closely with Andrew Alberts and our little community program, and we try to stress to the parents we're we're looking to put your child at the appropriate level, whether that's the one team, the two team, or the three team, it doesn't matter. But we want them to succeed, meaning have a puck touch, score a goal, make new friends, get along in the locker room, um, so that they continue to play, because that's what you need. You know, when you get up to 13, the statistics are pretty sad about the seven out of ten quitting sports. Um, but you know, in the moment, I think you know, the kids are excited. I like, you know, they're in the playoffs. There's a little bit uh the kids are a little nervous, maybe, and that's a healthy little environment in that little snippet. But, you know, we lose a game. I mean, a lot of times, like the conversation on the way home for my kids is about anything but right, you know, like we talk about. I don't bring it up on the way home. It might be about whatever they saw a fancy car on the road. I mean, it's kids.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

Right. Let's go for some ice cream a little bit. Um have you ever coached your your kids, your own kids? Were you ever a coach other teams, or did you back away from that?

SPEAKER_02 33:17

No, I coach all uh uh all of them. I've coached all of them in soccer at one point. Uh backed off a little bit. Um, and then my kids, I have been involved throughout their 9, 11, and 13. But yes, at this stage, sometimes taking a little bit less of a role, like than the head coach, just because I want them to be coached by other kids. Uh in the springtime, they play baseball, softball. Uh, one my daughter did lacrosse, and I don't coach at all for that. A lot of that is for so I can have a break, but a lot of it is let's put them out, they can be coached by somebody else. Because we all do it differently, right? And it's healthy.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

Um I respect that. I really do, because I'm sure you get pressured too, with all your experience to, hey, we've got a natural born head coach here. Let's lean on him. So I respect that you said, you know what, you should learn from someone else. I'm curious what you're thinking, because you said earlier that the landscape is really changing for youth hockey. What excites you most about young players today? What do you see that's changing?

SPEAKER_02 34:21

Um well, you know, I'll go back just a step around. I love coaching the kids. I love coaching any kids. It's kind of, you know, hockey, I love the game of hockey. I watch it all winter, but coaching the kids for me is is the best, whether it's on soccer field or hockey. But, you know, these days there's the kids are certainly more talented at a younger age, um, which is kind of fun, right? There's a lot of skill skating and and things like that. But you know, the landscape has totally changed. There's the team, there's too many teams, it's too many programs, everything's completely diluted. Um, and you know, and then people are just, you know, I gotta jump from team to team. That stuff bothers me. Um, you know, but you know, especially like hockey, you know, checking comes into play, used to be pee-wee, now it's bananas. It's kind of a pretty good equalizer. Um, because you have kids just naturally don't want to be a part of it, and then you know, everyone's gonna grow, um, mature, but um you know, definitely more skilled and talented at younger ages than when I grew up.

SPEAKER_03 35:22

Yeah, we we talk about this a lot. How when we divide youth hockey, we always say kind of 12 and under and 12 and up, because when hitting comes into the game, it's a different game. It's a totally different game. And we tell the young parents all the time that if your kid is uh excelling at the 12 and under range, that it's fantastic. Like we're it's not a negative thing, but when hitting comes in, the game changes. All right. Um, and that's why you see sometimes I you know, I don't even like to call them late bloomers, I call it just late adopters, right? That they they see the game a different way because of the the skill set of hitting. Um, you know, another thing that evolves along the way, Patrick, we talked earlier about you know, winning and and what winning means. And it's funny because I'm a I'm a very fierce competitor, and I think people know that about me. And I've been asked, like, how do you deal with like tenue hockey with you know your hatred of losing? And I tell them I I change what the win is. You said earlier about pro coaches are paid to win. That is correct. At youth hockey, it's the parents think think the coaches are paid to win. First off, we're not paid. Second of all, uh, you know, winning the game in youth hockey cannot be the be all end all of it. It's great to win. I love when we win, I love it for the kids. But the win as the coach is as you said, Patrick, that they're learning something, right? And that's why it's so important, especially for the parents listening. I look, I have the same when it's late in a youth game and it's a one-goal game or a two-goal game, yeah, of course I'm wanting to win that game, right? But but if that trumps the development structure, you know, I don't think I'm coaching at that point anymore, right? I'm just I'm just trying to win a game to appease other people, right? So it's a thin line, it's not easy. And I think as you get older, that that becomes more and more pertinent, right? In the sense of like, you know, if you're if you're in a prep school, it's not so much that you have to win, like you're paid to win, but like winning now becomes part of the the skill set, though the yearning to win the the the the teaching them how to become a winner, how to become a champion. That comes later on, and again, like that's part of the professional development. I I I don't know where I'm going with this, other than the fact that it you can have multiple wins. And I think when we approve approach youth hockey, the win is is like you said, it's development. These kids are getting better. I don't want one kid to come out of my team that's fantastic. I want them all to be in a position to succeed at whatever the next step is for them, whether that's with me or the next age group. I just think that as coaches, we we need to talk more with each other about what that means. I always pose this question no matter what age you're coaching, have you spoken to the coach at the age group above you to talk about what they look for at that age group? I I just don't see those conversations happening. And I don't understand how we're gonna provide effective development, at least in our programs, if I don't know what the U12 coach wants after U10 or the U14 wants after U12. Like, there's gotta be some understanding of that, right?

SPEAKER_02 38:27

Yeah, I mean, I mean, I tell the parents early on I want to win every game. I'm a very competitive. I think that was part of what helped me get to where I did, but it's not coming at the expense of the development of the kids. And 12, I mean, I would even say 14 U. Like, you gotta develop all of them. Um, sure. But I also I, you know, I guess sometimes I don't my perspective is different than the average person because I did play at the highest level. But you know, I watch my kids, I I don't get nervous, I don't get tense, I'm not yelling. I want my kids to learn. I want them, yes, I want to win every game, but you know, it's more important to me that everybody, you know, all the sports, you know, play equal. Like, you know, it's 12 you and you're up by a goal. Like, I still won't change who goes out there. It's whoever's next because that's how they're gonna learn, you know. Um, if you if you have three or four kids that never get out there on the power play at 10 U, you're not helping them, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:24

Well, I I also I also think I I also think that parents, many parents, and I don't want to say most, but many, many, don't appreciate and understand, like when you're a professional athlete or or a professional coach or somebody who loves watching players develop, you're also on the bench saying, Wow, I can feel a dynamic of like I this kid going out here and like to Lee's point, you know, finding your wins, like sometimes you could put a player out there a minute left in the game and they don't get scored on. That's a win. Like a player that you would never like everybody's like, oh my God, I can't believe they're putting this kid out there. And then the other, it's amazing when you see young athletes rally around that kid and support that player, that player comes off. You literally might have just changed that player's whole course of their whole life. I mean, I know it's I don't want to get too grand, but it really makes a big difference when you get an opportunity for a kid like me. I'm the guy who says, Well, why would I come to practice every day and bust my ass to play against you, Patrick, if I'm never gonna get a chance to play? Like if I know I'm never gonna get on the bench, why don't I even come here? And without that player coming every day, I can't get better. So parents have to understand like the coach's job and managing these kids is to make sure that everybody wants to come and and and compete. And and with that competition, your player will get better and they'll learn something. And at the same time, all these other kids that yes, they're not gonna be the kid you put on thinking you're gonna score a big goal, but sometimes not giving up a big goal is the victory, you know.

SPEAKER_03 40:55

I want to add one more thing to this, Mike. I want to add one more thing to this, and the Patrick response to this is that, and I've seen this a lot. It's late in the game, one goal came, or you're on special teams. Put the five best kids out there, just throw them out there. I have seen that collapse on itself more than I have seen at work, right? All right, because they don't normally play together, they're typically all you know, quote unquote stars, they don't know what to do to pass the puck, they don't know how to have positioning. So you throw your five best skaters out, it's what the parents want to, and you get scored on, or or or or worse, right? Like it's just a complete killer in terms of confidence. Whereas if you had maybe stayed constructed, like maybe maybe there's a line you want to put out. I like I do understand that, but like just this it's a power play, throw the best players out, it's a penalty kill, throw the best players out. No, no, I and again, I'll use myself as an example one more time. That that when I started late, but I could skate. That was again, that was my skill set. So they would never put me on a power play, but you know what my coach did, he put me on the penalty kill, right? And I I was really good at that. But if he never just tried me out there, I never would have discovered that. So I just wanted to throw that in there. It's like just throw the baseball team, it doesn't work.

SPEAKER_00 42:08

I don't think my kids have been on a team where that didn't happen, honestly. All the time. Let's talk about that.

SPEAKER_03 42:15

I roll my eyes on the baseball.

SPEAKER_02 42:18

You know, to say to that, is one, my kids play baseball. I love baseball, and I probably love baseball now for having watched my kids than I did when I was a kid. But that's like one of the best parts is is little league is almost like a rite of passage, and you have these kids, and nothing wrong with it, you know, not very athletic, probably, you know, probably won't play beyond little league, whatever, all year. And my kids still talk about it to a day about an instance where not one hit this kid all year long, nothing. And then the last game of the year, he made a hit and tied it up, and the dugout was going crazy, and that's all they talked about for two years. Not the win, not how many hits who whoever had, it was that one kid. So, like you said, changing the trajectory of somebody's life. And that's the self-esteem and the confidence thing. Um, and then another to that point was so when I was playing professionally, uh, in the American League, more of a power play, uh, kind of a point producer, offensive guy. Um, didn't wasn't very good defensively when I first started. So the coach wanted me, they wanted me to be a center at 6'4. I was coming in, I was mostly played wing. They tried me, whatever. So, well, I'd chase the puck around, was never really taught, never really worked, you know. So it took me a while to get the defensive structure. So for a while in the American League, if we're up by a goal, we didn't win a ton of games in my first couple years in the American League, right? 22 out of 80 my first year. So, you know, a couple, it was a long season as far as wins and losses. Um, and then we'd be up by a goal, 10 minutes left. I wasn't gonna play. I knew why I wasn't gonna play because I I wasn't gonna be out there because I was a liability at the time. Fast forward a couple years, so I pretty much play left wing. I'm in the NHL. Uh Ron Wilson was the coach in San Jose. Um, supposed to be a couple game call-up and then be sent down. Then someone gets sick, and then someone's wife is pregnant, and the next thing you know, I'm playing, and one day he goes, Oh, you played right, you play right wing? Yes, I play right wing. I probably had played two games at right wing. You kill penalties? Yep, no problem. I never killed a penalty. I was just like, I wanted to play, I'll play wherever you want me to play. Turns out that became my thing. Like at the NHL, I was third, fourth line winger killed penalties. Um, but I hadn't really spent much time in it. So, to your point of you got to give kids chances. You don't know where it's gonna go, you don't know what's gonna transpire.

SPEAKER_03 44:42

Well, the the other side of what you just said that we have to comment on is yeah, I do that. Yeah, I do that. Kids, parents. How many of you parents? How many of your kids are walking in? I'm a center, I've gotta play center, or even I am a left defenseman. You kids, you play everything, all right? That's did you want the answer? You play everything. Go ahead, Patrick.

SPEAKER_02 45:04

Never and hockey so interchangeable. I try to say that too. Well, you're the center off the face off, but right, you were the first on the fore check, and now you're the last in the back check, so therefore, you're not the center anymore, you're the weak side winner. Or whatever that may be.

SPEAKER_03 45:17

Right.

SPEAKER_02 45:18

Learning.

SPEAKER_03 45:18

Here's another one, too. And we'll we'll lean into your scouting experience here, but I'll start with the youth level. You know, when I'm watching games, I have seen this. I have seen the puck in a breakout go from the D to the wing, and then the wing just without thinking, throw it to the middle where the center is supposed to be, because that's exactly what they were taught to do. That's what a winger does. You get the puck on the boards and you throw it to the center. That is one of 50 things a wing may do on the boards or the player on the boards. But the truth is, and Mike, you and I talk about this, Christy, you've heard it like every episode about teaching decision making and not teaching just do this because I told you to do it. All right. Modern hockey is position positionless, positionless. I'm saying that wrong, but you all know what I'm trying to say. Positionless. Anyway, and yes, yes, you have your face-off positions, and then the game flows after that. So again, you should be teaching these kids, and kids, you should be learning lots of different decision-making skills, lots of different positions. I always joke, I've said on the show before you want to be a great winger, play defense. You want to play a great defenseman, play center, play the different positions. You're gonna learn a lot more about the game doing that. I'd put you all in goal every game if I could. Maybe not all of you, but you know what I'm trying to say.

SPEAKER_02 46:33

Yeah, the more versatile you are, the better off you are. Because, you know, if you're a left winger, whatever, and then you know, there's some team, you know, whatever, and they need a right winger, or or your team needs a right winger, and you have these kids like, I can't do it, and you're like, I can't. Well, guess what? Now you get double the shifts, right?

SPEAKER_01 46:51

It's yeah, I mean imagine imagine you're a player growing up and you're you play right wing, right? And you're right wing or right winger, you get to high school, there's seven right wingers, and you never understood that you might play D. What are you gonna just sit the bench for four years? I mean, like at some point, you just you'd have to be able to say, Listen, I can do anything you ask me to do. That's what's great about like like hockey is so different, right? I mean, it's it's just a great opportunity where like even in football, you can't just play everything. Like you can't be a lineman if you're you know a running back or or you're you know you're a quarterback. Like if you're just there's certain things that you're made, your body is made to be able to do in hockey. We see it today, the modern game, right? Patrick, you work with these guys every day. There are six, five guys, and there's five, eight guys, and they uh they all can play the same role interchangeably outside of goalie. I get it. But just the opportunity, if you're skilled and smart and tough and can can be versatile enough to play within a certain role in a certain system, hockey uh enables you to play everywhere. And and I think the players, uh I used to joke around you know a lot with the younger kids when they'd come for tryouts, I'm like, well, what position you play? Oh, I'm a centerman. Okay, we have five centermen. So are you out? Does that mean I'm cutting you? Because I have no other room for you. And I think just the player that can say, Coach, where I know it's cliche, but it is, it's true. Coach, where do you want me? Where do you want me to play? I will excel in that position. And guess what? The earlier you do that, parents, the earlier you allow a coach to experiment with your kid, the quicker they learn where they're really suited to play later on when it actually matters.

unknown 48:28

Right.

SPEAKER_01 48:29

I mean, right.

SPEAKER_02 48:29

What are you gonna right? You say like you get to the higher levels and there's four or five sentiment and they're better than you. What are you gonna do? Not play? Or what if you could play wing? Now they only have three wingers and you could be the fourth winger. Um, you know, I I said to you, I teach like by teaching, it's why when they go to school they work on all the subjects, right? Right. If the teacher came in and said you're only doing math from September till June, yeah, you're you people would freak out, but we're only gonna play hockey and you're only gonna play left wing for 12 months a year. It doesn't make any sense to me.

SPEAKER_01 49:00

I love Daleen being a great example, like a kid like that who grew up as a winger his whole life, right? And all of a sudden they put he's the best defensive in the league. Like I said, like you know, it's just like it's a matter of can you play hockey? Can you skate? Can you pivot? Can you turn? Can you shoot? Can you pass? All these kinds of things I think are really what sets hockey apart from other positions or other other sports. And your position, that positionless hockey, it's always been there. It's just a matter of now we're we're letting it un be a little more undefined.

SPEAKER_00 49:30

Right. It's so important for kids to learn how to pivot at an early age. Also, hockey sense so important, right, Patrick? And I'm curious, when you're scouting, what are the qualities that you look for that separate a good prospect from an elite prospect?

SPEAKER_02 49:46

Well, you know, you're skating and skill. I mean, everyone you know on that. And the hockey sense is very important. And that that ties into what we just talked about with are you reading and reacting, right? Are you are you gonna you know go where the puck is gonna go or are you going where it was? Um, or if you're right, the center and you you're interchangeable, that's part of the hockey sense. Um other things would be character, competitiveness. Um you're not gonna play in the NHL if you're not a very competitive kid, because you know, you're gonna be in the American League, that's where everyone wants to be. Um, and every team, you know, has I guess we'll do it a little differently, you know. Um, but you know, can you skate? I and I think the skating thing for me, it's not necessarily like, are you real fast or powerful? Obviously that helps, but you know, there's plenty of guys in the NHL that are like I would say I term like sufficient skaters, right? I play guys that you know, Joe Pavelski I play with, not the fastest, never was, but very, very smart, right? Um, and I think that can help, you know, if you have good hockey sense, it can help compensate for some of the skating stuff. Um, but yes, it's a fast game, it's not getting any slower. But not everyone in the NHL is like a burner, right? Um, so you got to find out ways to to make up for it in other ways, right? Maybe you're an elite shooter, maybe you're an elite skater, you know, maybe your hockey sense, or maybe your skill, or maybe you're an elite competitor that helps balance off some of the other deficiencies. I think, you know, they in the NHL, you know, like you're doing the draft, all these kids have deficiencies, right? And it and it's trying to balance it and see and try to project where you think somebody has the most upside, right? Especially in the later rounds. Or, you know, I watched the college for free agents. Of course, you know, there's kids out there, and you're like, well, skating's not great, but elite sense or whatever it is, and you're trying to balance it off and see if it might fit within your organization.

SPEAKER_01 51:45

Yeah, the cool thing about hockey is you know, as fast as you want to go, there is a board at the end of the game. You know, that you live. You're not sprinting down a river, right? So at some point you have to be able to turn and and pivot and pass and make a play. So I think your point of, you know, you know, and and Lee, Lee actually said this. It was funny. He was talking when he I heard him talking to his kids, you know, at his national program and talking about like you gotta be, you you have to get there fast, but don't be quick, or or or vice versa. Like, like you don't like it's great to be quick and fast, but you have to understand like when you're you know, it doesn't always mean 100 miles per hour. It's like you gotta make a decision quickly and you gotta be fast, but then you got to use that in the right area for the game because going and skating as fast as you can to the puck, and then you know, and then and then not being able to do anything with it, it doesn't help you in the game of hockey.

SPEAKER_03 52:32

Yeah, we we were talking about speed versus timing, yeah, right, and then the speed of timing, which is which is also hockey IQ, and and I teaching these these athletes, you got to learn that side of the game. You know, again, going back to what we were talking about a minute ago, just about playing other positions and how it applies to this. I find a lot of times kids say, Well, I'm a left wing, and I'll say, Well, why are you a left wing? And and they'll tell me an issue in their game. Well, I'm not good at catching the puck on this side. And look, look, you know, I I don't tease them at that. I said, Hey, look, I love that you know that's something you need to get better at. Why don't we work on that instead of ignoring it? Right. And and Patrick, you said it too, and this is the reality of pro hockey is yeah, when you get to pro hockey, you you are a specialist in some form, right? It doesn't mean you can't play at other other positions or anything like that. But like I remember, you know, in Ovechkin's early years, and again, he's probably not the best example for purposes of youth hockey, but um, you know, he had coaches early on that were trying to fit him into a system, and it wasn't until they kind of let him loose and let him play the way he wanted to play that he he really exploded. He was always a great scorer, don't get me wrong. Um, but adversely, too, when they won the cup, they were he was told, hey, you gotta play a little more defense, right? You gotta get back. It was probably his best defensive season ever. Versatility matters, and kids, coaches, youth coaches, parents, you gotta let your kids try all the things out because not only will it help them, it will uncover things, right? If your kid can't catch a pass on their backhand, don't ignore that. Get them good at doing it. You can, we can coaches, we can teach that. We want to teach the kids that trust me. We want your kids to be able to catch a pass without getting frustrated right now. I want nothing more than all your kids to be able to catch a pass. All right, we changed the whole game for our team.

SPEAKER_01 54:23

I think Patrick can appreciate this the most, right? That I was working with a kid the other day in lacrosse, actually. Great righty, you know, just shooting righty, right, catching righty, shooting righty. So I mean for an hour for after practice, we worked just on lefty, and he was so upset. He's like, I can't play lefty, I'm not good at lefty. I go, yes, but you're great. And this is this kid's 10 years old. So at 10, he can just go down the field as a righty, he scores every single time. So his his his success factor is off the charts. Every parent loves it. But now, but what what am I what's my job as a coach and a developer? My job is to say, well, I want to see you play when you're 16. And if you can't shoot lefty and righty or handle the ball on both sides, you are no longer playing lacrosse. You're just a kid that runs down the field. And I think that's where I think as hockey players we see all those things. And when they get to you, Patrick, the ability, and let's go right back to like that kid being a better athlete, right? Yes, the kid can do all of these things, but your job is how do you make how do you put them now in a place where they can be versatile for the team that you're working for with them on? Like, how can you say, well, yeah, this player here, but guess what? Nobody else sees this. This is my job, right? That's what I love about scouting. It's like you're seeing something in a player, say, if I could take this player and put him here and teach them this, this player now becomes somebody else that nobody else sees. And isn't that really the true, like the true ability of a developer and a scout to say, I'm seeing something in a kid that nobody else is seeing? And and that's like like AI can't do that, right?

SPEAKER_02 55:56

Yeah, you know, and scouting's interesting too, is because we can all see the same player and all have different opinions, right? It's subjective and and uh, you know, he's a good skater, he's not a great skater, he's whatever it is, but yes, versatility, and then right, where do you see that player? And then uh it's also up to the player to decide like you know, are you okay being a fourth line winger and playing on the power play or penalty kill? Sorry, right? Where you know you've scored your whole life, but you know what? There's these guys are better than you. That's reality, right? There's only those one, you know, the the the elite of the elite, those McDavid's over Hedgekins, like the rest of them, you got to kind of find where your role is on the team, you know. And a lot of kids are not, I mean, I dealt with it and I played with guys, they're just not willing to accept it. Um, they want to score goals and they can't see them doing anything else. But you know, there's a difference in a lot of them making a lot of money, but you know, to kill, or maybe, you know what, there's guys that may not play much, but also all of a sudden they're the best face-off player on the team. Well, guess what? Now they're on the fork line and they're out there taking every important draw. So now their minutes went from six, seven minutes to the 11 or 12 minutes because they're so valuable. Um, you know, the youth levels, everybody's got to play and everyone's got to have fun so they can play. And when you get up into those high levels, is you have to find where your role is on the team. Um be a piece to the puzzle. Um, if you want to play.

SPEAKER_03 57:23

We we got to shout out our co-host, Taylor Scamora, too, here at Patrick, because at the start of last season, she was a 13th forward and she knew it both on Team USA and somewhat on her PWHL team. And by the end of the Olympics, she was getting key minutes at the end of her PWHL season with Montreal, where they just won the Walter Cup. She was out there at every major moment in the game, and it was because of her versatility. I think she played every forward position, she was on multiple lines, she was just willing to do the job that was put in front of her, and she's been insanely rewarded for it. I don't just mean trophies, right? I mean with ice time and things like that, but that's her mindset. So the point I'm making, and Patrick, you're making it too. Parents, we have to help our kids develop that mindset, right? If you're telling your kid you should be here, you gotta be careful with that statement. All right. Or if you're telling your kid, here's one I've heard before, which blows my mind. Well, coach keeps putting you in that position, he's not putting you in a position to succeed. Well, wait a minute. By teaching him that other position or her that other position, I am putting your kid in a position to succeed. As Patrick just said, you're not willing to accept the position that I'm putting your kid in. You're teaching them to not have a growth mindset. And and I'm not saying everything we do is correct, parents. All right, coaches make mistakes like anybody else. All right. But if I if if your kid is one last final example, Mike was there for this. I just this popped in my head at this training camp. I just ran, we had a player that I mistakenly put on offense. All right. I just I just designated her at the wrong position. And she went out there for two periods and played offense and was pretty good, right? And then she went to Mike, who was coaching that bench, and said, You know, I played defense. She she goes, I had no idea. And then we put her on defense, she was fantastic on defense. But man, when I had my one-on-one with her, I told her, you know, I was pretty impressed. The fact that I made that mistake, you didn't say a word until the second period, and you excelled. I said, Yeah, when we put you on D, it was obvious that's your position. But now I know how versatile that player, that player stood out to me because of a mistake that I made, right? Just because she was willing to do it. So I think that's important. And this was a camp where you needed to be noticed, right? So again, I'm just using my own personal experience.

SPEAKER_01 59:41

Well, and and and on top of it all, it wasn't like, oh, I'm not playing this position. There was never like there wasn't even a discussion about it. Like, like it was kind of like, uh, coach, I just want to let you know something. Like, this is this is 40 minutes into the game. Right. You know, she's like, oh, I just want to let you know something. I'm in the wrong position. I'm like, well, you could have fooled me. I mean, like, this nobody knows how to do it. You know, but I think that's that whole, that to me, that's the whole, that's coaching. That's like looking and saying, and and and vite and in in the same breath, like there's players who like, like, like a parent will debate me all the time. Like, my son is a defenseman. My son's a defenseman. I'm like, who is telling you he's a defenseman? The guy that's a bummer for 40 years and never played hockey in his life. Like, your son is not a defenseman. I know he maybe feels good there. It's like back in the day, right, when you put a kid in football and you made him a nose tackle because he was the biggest, you know, heaviest kid. And they're like, Yeah, but have you seen his parents? His parents look like Adonis one and Adonis two. Like, what this kid's gonna be a beast when he's 16. Put him in a skilled position because that's where you're really gonna want him later in life. And I think a lot of us as coaches, sometimes we we, you know, going right back to what Lee was saying about the communication from level to level, sometimes we look at a kid and we don't look and project and say, Yeah, the kid looks like this now, but wow, he really has potential to be this. And we put him in these we these these positions that are placating them today, but they're not it's not helping them develop for tomorrow. And that to me is like that that's very frustrating on my end, but um, but again, it's Patrick's show, so sorry.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:16

You know what also I would tie that all into is help you're be a great teammate. If you're a great teammate, you'll and it's something I've harped on with my kids, you know, is being coachable, being a great teammate, competing and having fun. Because if you're a great teammate, your your team comes and you're gonna do what's best for the team, right? And that helps. I mean, that's life. That's life, right? Go to any office or work, like you have to be a good teammate. People want to be around you, and people want you on their team, right? You might not have as much ability, but they coaches, a coach's dream. So you're a great teammate, yeah, you're a left winger, but you know what? We're short right wingers. Hey, I'll play right wing today, no problem. And people appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:56

You know, I we we did a really popular episode called Three Things You Should Say to Your Kids Before They Step on the Ice. And if there was a fourth thing, by the way, parents, go listen uh to that episode if you want to hear the three things, no spoilers here. But if there was a fourth thing, it would be what you just said is really saying, Hey, be a great teammate today. We don't tell our kids that enough as coaches and parents. In fact, I think sometimes parents were giving them uh information maybe detrimental to that, to that. Uh go out there and make sure you get your ice done today. Be a great teammate is important, and I'll tell you right now, uh, at every level, whether you're playing or not, being a great teammate pays off. Yeah, all right. And I this isn't me being rah-rah. All right. I I you know, I'm I'm in a position where I coach players sometimes that get very little ice time, and I talk to them, this is the hardest position on the team. You gotta be the best teammate on the bench because your teammates need you to be that, right? It's important. So if I could add a fourth thing to that, it's it's be the best teammate possible. Yeah, um, Patrick.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:59

We have some of those guys in the NHL too. Like, uh, you know, the game has changed with some of those like tough guys that played four or five minutes a night that literally were to fight, and they'll tell you they're some of the best teammates they've ever had. Right. Selfless.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:13

Um Yeah, and they're called and they and they they they when they're called upon, they perform what they were called upon to do. And I think that's where like we again, this is this is the episode four, right? That we can do. But I think it's just about it's all about like your role. And again, there aren't roles for players really at eight and nine, 10, but there eventually there are roles. And and and and the players that are able to accept the role, you said it earlier, Patrick. Like a kid could come up, and your job is like, I gotta, I gotta just convince this kid like he's never gonna play on this team because I don't need another right-wing second-line player. We have 20 of those kids. So if you want to find your space in the NHL, you now have to be a different person and not only be a different person, accept that that's the role. Because your body language and the way you're on the bench and the way your teammates see you, like those guys, and you know, I I I don't want to go down too far a road here just with your current organization, but like, aren't those like the little nuances between making the playoffs and not making the playoffs is not always the top two, you know, two lines. It's all those other support people in there and that buy-in and the opportunity for them to say, we have a we have a common goal and we want to get here. And can you just talk a little bit in your recent experience? Like those little tweaks in personnel, how that makes a team so much different than a team the previous year.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:36

Yeah, I mean, I think you see that a lot every year in the NHL in the playoffs. Is you know, obviously you have your stars and they produce all year, and everyone knows, but it's it's right, who's gonna step up in these the playoffs? The games get tighter, they get more physical, right? That's just the nature of the game. It ramps up the intensity and everything. But, you know, your guys on the the bot, the third, fourth line, like those are the guys you start to chip in, and then they start talking about it, and you're like, well, also these are the guys that are playing that way all year, because that's how they have to play if they want to keep playing, right? They're they're not gonna score 30 goals and 70 something points, but they find ways to chip in, and it or it could be a block shot, right? They're out and they just keep blocking shots. I mean, it's there's just different, you know, you need all of that. Of course, you need some luck and you need some health and all that stuff. Um, but those are the guys I think you know, it's like that gets magnified in the playoffs because people are watching it much closer. You know, I always say like the same like baseball. You watch game number, you know, 75 in that error at the third base and two run scores, and that's the game, and no one thinks of it. But that same play happens in the best of seven series in the playoffs, and everyone's like, Oh my gosh, right? Everything gets amplified, magnified.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:47

Yeah, you're Bill Buckner.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:49

Yeah, I was thinking that too, Mike. You know, Patrick, we're getting a little short on time here, but I I I you said something really early in the episode. I I have to pull the string off. Did you say you went from 5'2 to 6'4 in a few years?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:03

Yeah, yeah. I I mean, I I'm 6'4, and that's what my um, but I was five foot two and probably 90 pounds going into ninth grade. How much equipment did you go through? Those, you know, I have a lot of siblings, so it was all hand-me-downs. Oh, okay, goodness. And I don't remember exactly where it came in, but I it it was after my junior year of high school that I really start to grow. Um, I could tell you there were conversations with the doctor about trying to, you know, spur every grow spurts and all that on at that time. I just grew very late.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:36

Um, but needless to say, you didn't you didn't do sweater fittings in April, I guess. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:43

So I was just always, you know, smallest guy. That's that's you know, and I think it's helped me with my own kids and just in general, and I feel like I probably have the most patience in the world with them in their development. Um my daughter does a million different things. She's done lacrosse, she did softball, she did intermittent track this spring, she's done soc. And I'm just like, just keep because she's also going in eighth grade. I'm well aware at ninth grade, you know, you really do have to kind of start picking. But I also think in when you hit high school, you start practicing four or five days a week. Week along with those games. So then I, you know, that's where a lot of growth will happen.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:19

Yeah. Yeah. Well, Patrick, this has been a tremendous episode. Uh, we're going to ask you to join us on a quick ride to the rink again after this one for the kids. Uh parents, just so if you're still listening, I'm going to definitely uh uh play for the kids. Like this is an NHL scout, but we're gonna talk about stuff that actually matters for them. So make sure you stick around for that one. But uh Christy Mike, any final things before I close this out?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:39

Well, we forgot to ask him what advice he would give to younger self. Yes, that of all of our guests, and I think it'd be really interesting to hear from you, Patrick, if you could look back at 12-year-old Patrick Chris Miller and give yourself some advice. What would you tell yourself, your younger self?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:56

Um probably be more confident. I think I'm you know, I'm pretty low-key person, um, and just always have been. Uh, I think, you know, and and I say that because as it transpired over and like I got called up to the end, it just be more confident in yourself. Um, I think it would uh maybe help me a little bit at the higher levels. Um, because you know, you're thinking like, oh my gosh, I'm really here. Uh but you know, the young age, I know I love playing all the sports. I was never a rah, rah vocal person. Um, a pretty good athlete, but I think be more confident. Um, and I don't mean that in a terrible way. I just quiet kid, I see my own kids, you know, you just be believe in yourself.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:43

I love that. And that's what I said as soon as I saw you. Oh my gosh, he's really here. I said that to myself. He's really here, he's on our show. What a thrill. Thank you so much, Patrick. It's great, really appreciate you.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:58

Patrick, I'll close it by saying you were very rah, rah, vocal, and confident on the show today, which we appreciate. So you've got a future podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:07

Strong opinions about it all because I see it in all the sports, it's all the youth sports, and I think it's really sad. Um, there's just too many kids that are quitting too early, um, too many people focused on the wrong things and win it all cost at a young age, and you're just driving it out. And and as somebody who grew late and things developed and happened very late, there's you know less room for for the likes of me now because people are weeding people out so early. I mean, that's right. You're gonna get cut from this, you're too small, you're not this, you're not we did we gotta win, we gotta, you know, and it's cutting the kids and ending things prematurely for too many people.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:45

Yeah, well, I'll I'll close by saying this, Patrick. I agree with you. And one of the beauties of this show is that the thousands of people that will listen to this episode are wanting the journey that you're describing. They're wanting the best for their kids and they're wanting to have, uh and they are having, right, the the proper, we'll say, development structure about this being life and not just hockey. I don't think anyone's coming to our show for that quick tip on how to do a Michigan better in the third period. I think they're coming for the reasons you just mentioned. So I want to thank you for being here again and sharing your knowledge, man, because that's that's what this community is all about. No problem. That's great. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Thanks for being here. All right, gang. Remember, you can email us your questions, your comments, your thoughts. We get a lot of them. Team at our kidsplayhockey.com or click the link accompanying this episode in the description. You can text to us, we can text you back. But uh, for Patrick Rischmiller or Mike Villel, Mike Vennelli, sorry, Mike, Christy Cash and Burns on Leois. We'll see you on the next edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Take care. We hope you enjoyed this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or our website, our kidsplayhockey.com. Also, make sure to check out our children's book, When Hockey Stops, at When Hockey Stops.com. It's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much for listening to this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey, and we'll see you on the next episode.