Why Great Hockey Players Know the “Why” with Kevin Clark of Cascade Hockey

SPEAKER_01 1:15

This episode is powered by NHL Sensorina. Hello, hockey friends and families around the world, and welcome back to another edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. It's Leah Elias joined by Mike Vinelli and Christy Cash and O Burns gang, parents, coaches, everybody. I got a question for you. How often do you hear this conversation after a game? Hey son, how'd you play? Good. What happened on that goal? I don't know. Truth is, most young players know what happened during a shift, but great players know why it happened during the shift. It's the little details, the ones that never show up on the score sheet that often determine who earns more ice time, who coaches trust, and ultimately who continues to develop. And today's guest spent 16 years playing professional hockey around the world, competing with both the Vancouver Canucks and Winnipeg Jets organizations, represented Team Canada on multiple occasions, is now helping players learn to see the game for a professional lens. And that's exactly what we're going to dive into today. Hockey family, please join us in welcoming Kevin Cl Kevin Clark from Cascade Hockey. Kevin, welcome to Our Kids Play Hockey.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

Thanks for having me, guys. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_04 2:30

We're so excited to have you here. We can't have wait to have this conversation. Lee said it best. You have this conversation with your 10, 11, 12-year-old. Hey, why'd you have that bad shift? Oh no. Oh no. It's exactly what you get. So, yeah, so we are fascinated by this. We want to know our kids know they had a bad shift, but they're not able to express why. Why do you think that's a common problem?

SPEAKER_00 2:56

Um I think it's we often tend to look at the decision quality and base uh off of um the the outcome. So players may think that um they made a a good decision that led to a good outcome, so so that they they result. And in some situations, I think players need to have the recall from their coaches uh that what you did in that situation was okay, but it was a bad outcome. It's all right. Um I so I think the biggest thing for coaches to deliver to the players is let's let's not just result.

SPEAKER_04 3:42

And that happens a lot. I just say, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Well, in the youth hockey world of uh the the achievement uh pressure bubble that we live in um happens probably the this weekend at summer tournaments.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

Yeah, I think I think that I think that piece of achievement, right? That and I I I almost see it the opposite way a lot of times um when I'm coaching kids, because they do everything wrong and it ends up in a really nice goal. Like or it ends up in a goal, and every aspect of the play from the save on the other end all the way up to the goal was but you know, wrong, wrong, wrong. And it's very hard because everybody's like, oh, we scored. But all the processes to get there were not correct. In the in the scheme of I, you know, I always say when it really matters, like when other players are as smart as you and everybody else on the ice has the same IQ, then that play is a bad play. So can you just talk a little bit about, you know, maybe how do you like is that is that do you think that's more parent, coach, player, like where where is that conversation having to be a little stronger, you know, in in in uh in making a good play, you know, the play result, whether it's negative or positive, but who's making the judgment call on that, right? Who's saying it's a good play and not a good play? Is it dad? Is it mom? Is it the player? Is it the coach?

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you look back on on your own experiences and usually your mom is that voice of um, always had a great game, Lee. You know, good game, good game, Mike. Um and and you know as you get older that that's uh maybe not the case, but I think they tend to be the male figures um usually put a heavy emphasis on the they they only chase production, they didn't play the game, they may have not played any sports at a high level or or multi-sport athlete, and that is the way that they gauge their level that their son or daughter is at, versus when you get to that 14, 15, 17, maybe 16, 17 range. Now it's more about those minuscule details, the ones that are all those events that add up that you're able to impact the game in a different capacity besides the score sheet, where you see those players start to pass by the ones that maybe were just physically mature than others and could go through the whole team and and have um absurd amount of production at a young age.

SPEAKER_04 6:18

Yeah, and how how early do you start with those minuscule details that you're talking about?

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Um the the way that we work with our pros is the same way you work with our our young kids. We we don't have learn to play programs or you know, a ton of players under 12. I would say kind of 13, 14 when they can start to recall some events. Um I would I would say it it starts with the way that we practice too. Um a lot of the time, like like Mike touched on, like the game is so chaotic and the game is ugly, yet we decide to practice very pretty. And we want to have four blue line progressions and and go here and go there and touch the puck here and get a bunch of touches in, and that's all great. But when do you ever see someone go down and do that in a game and then come right through the middle of the the ice and get an uncontested shot on net? And and that's the way we practice.

SPEAKER_02 7:18

I got it, I got it, I oh God. That is we could have had we could have had you on like eight years ago. No, but I I I I specifically remember like my nine-year-old one time, he's like he's like, Why are we doing why do I have to pass to that guy to pass to that guy and then get it back from that guy and give it to that guy? And he goes, and because none of no because none of those three people could pass. So, and none of them knew why they were passing where they were passing. And and you know, I I certainly, I know me, just through my education and you know, following people like you, you know, have you know evolved into you know playing the game, practicing the game as uh in play, like practicing the game in in places that don't that don't look pretty because it's not, and I think you know, a lot of professional skills coaches and hockey coaches will say that, right? It why does it have to look pretty? Because parents expect it to be perfect and they want to see that progression. Like they they can't see, oh, that's not hockey. No, no, no. It's that it's definitely not hockey. It's it's just being it's a player learning the game. So when you're developing those players, are you are you saying like what like are you expecting the player, you want the player to learn? You like you want the player to see what their options are as opposed to you saying you must go here. Well, what if this happens? Well, that we'll we haven't got over that yet. Right. Like, like what do we do now?

SPEAKER_00 8:43

Yeah, we uh I can just speak for for us and and you know, friends that I'm close with and my business mentor that that helped me, you know, extend my career and and pretty much the way that we we practice with our players on the ice is exactly kind of what you're getting to in a sense of recreating the game in um working on high frequency events. So let's take a let's take a winger, let's take a forward. Um they are going to the wall, they're coming from the middle of the ice, and they have to go to the wall in the defensive zone. And in this event is going to happen to your son or daughter, maybe hundreds of times this year. So we may that player may not be able to even handle the puck on their backhand and make a backhand pass. You might have to start there. You might have to start that simple. Um, what are they doing on the way to the puck? So we're we're just being the reminder and the tool and the suggestion of what you may what you should focus on. And not focus on too much is I think is very important as well. So putting placing those players in the events that happen to them in the game, and then you can start to add in a passing option. It's it's CLA approach that that every skills coach say that that they may do, but I think you need to know what to focus on inside of your progression. Um, it's great if you have this this drill design that you took from somebody and you start here and you you you have a passing option, and then you layer in some pressure, and then you got another pressure option, and now it looks like a game because there's four or five, six players involved. But as a as a teacher, if you're not sure uh of where where the focus is, I think that can get lost too. But um, that that's kind of how we put players in those situations. We do a lot of position-specific work. Um, we we do a lot of um disadvantaged uh um situations where players are are one on two, they have to continue to hold on and on to the puck or two versus three, giving the advantage uh more to the offensive team. Because that's usually you you need you work in a defensive situation where you're usually outnumbered and you have to problem solve in those areas. So I don't want to ramble on too long, but um good.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

Yeah, that's over here. No, I'll I'll say this. You know, we we started we started the episode talking about players uh knowing the what but not the why. And I think a lot of youth coaches fall into this trap as well. They know what they want, they want a good breakout, they want a great drive up the ice, they want a great scoring opportunity, but the why behind that I find is often not explained uh well. Or as you just said, Kevin, they don't break down the skill enough to teach the skill, right? Who doesn't want a great breakout? Every coach wants that. But if your kid cannot catch a pass on their backhand, like you said, you are probably not going to have a great breakout. And I don't think enough coaches spend time uh just thinking, breaking down, and then building, as you said, progression to develop these skills. You know, I've been I've been taking a lot of notes here, and and you know, I always look for the commonalities with our guests in our episode, guys. And we've done over 500, right? One of the things that that you've said, Mike has said this, uh, our guests, like Daryl Belfry said this, right? Is that from the top level to the to the younger levels, there's not much change in how it's taught. There's change in what's taught in terms of minutia of the sport. But Mike, you've always said this, right? It's it's not about like there's not a drill that you do with 10-year-olds that you can't do with with pros, right? Like the drills are the drills. All right. So I just think that's an interesting thought for everybody listening right now. That it's it's the drills that you do matter, and it can't just be going about the motions. Well, if we do the breakup enough, a breakout enough times, the breakout's gonna work. No, like you you gotta break these things down. Go ahead, Mike.

SPEAKER_02 12:44

No, I was just gonna say, because I think Kevin hit on it a little earlier, and I don't want anybody to miss this point that you know, he's talking about, you know, when he's trying to teach this to the pros and to these higher-level players at 13, 14, 15 years old, I'm assuming, right, Kevin, that they already have the structured block drill piece taken care of. Like they know how to make a it it they have the fundamentals of the proper passing, they have the fundamentals of skating, they can pivot left and right, they can post up in a in a like so you're saying, hey, when you come here and you're gonna take this angle, the reason why a lot of youth players might not take an angle is because they can't turn that way. Like, like, well, I I can't even stop, you know, I don't even feel confident in the ability. So I think when you're in when you're putting these kinds of, like again, I I would put these kind of you know, philosophies into a six-year-old, but at the same time, we still have to teach skill. Like there are certain aspects of the game where you can't just, I'm all, I'm all for free play and you know, everybody just go out and have fun. You know, be pop be a pot hockey player every day. But we're so limited in our time with our kids on the ice, is at some point we do have to teach how to pass, how to accept the pass, how to shoot. What the player does with that is them. But we still have to have those pieces. So I think can you just talk about like when you're like you're already, you're you're you're getting a player um i i i in your system, but they've they've already have a lot of the basic aspects of the skills they need to do those things.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

Yes, we we do for sure. And and that's where it's uh challenging in a sense of these these players have a lot of default habits, or they they've right. We want to try to, you know, the learning environment that we create for our players, it's just usually we get the most touches with them in the summertime. So it's a it's a different conversation. It's one that they'll confide in us because we're not their coaches. We're not we don't control their ice time. I'm not behind the bench um and deciding who's going out next. So they're there they don't have that scared factor um that that will come down on them. We've create we've changed the the environment that they come to us, and that's one that they know they can ask. It's there's no stupid question. It's just one that nobody, you know, it's it's or sorry, there's no stupid question in a sense of it's just the one that someone's afraid to ask. And if you can continue to create those moments, then the conversations we're having and what we're delivering, moving your bottom hand or opening up your body, or um the the timing of when you decide to collect information around you, it's it's accepted well because we're totally independent. And I think that's why it's very important for these orgs that keep everything in-house for 12 months of the year. These these players the players need a different voice.

SPEAKER_04 15:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

And the parents the parents want it.

SPEAKER_04 15:47

So to follow up on that, because you know, parents listening to this, they naturally want to help their kids, um, and they want to get involved. So, what role does a parent play in this kind of development for their kids? Uh without being too much pressure, obviously.

SPEAKER_00 16:07

Yeah, uh so it's a good story because uh um you know, we we we we're gonna go full circle in some of these conversations and talk about achievement pressure, but you know, the the bubble that we we live in, and and you know, my my daughter's really she's seven, she's she's really into you know, you start to do different things. What do you like to do? She's in this running club, and and she's also playing soccer. So at the running club, you know, she takes they've been doing this parachute running. So we uh we have a spot just outside here in the turf, and she's like, we have a parachute at home. She's like, I just want to run the parachute and run with her brother who's four. Well, meanwhile, these other people that I'm getting to the story here, these other people are looking around me, probably like, this guy's crazy, this dad is crazy, like starting them early, you know, like seven years old, she's running with a parachute. Little, little, little does he know. Like, I'm kind of laughing inside because I'm probably gonna have this conversation with not you guys, but anybody, and and I'm gonna remember it that this guy's looking at me, and little does he know, like, she's the one asking me, like, I kind of want to do this. Like, can can we go have some fun? And and that's when you start to, you know, you get to the 13, 14, 15 range where players like want to be on the ice more. They they they want to be on with some older players, they want to be on with their brothers, and they're chasing them. And and it's all about um the the inner competition battle between siblings, I think. So long-winded answer. I I think it has to come from first of all, within, because we want to encourage players being multi-sport athletes and don't specialize early. Um everybody talks about the burnout rate that that happens, and I think USA hockey had a great stat of the U-15, U16, U17 selection camps and the turnover rate that they have from those. Um, so I I think just being open, like being open and look at other programs and see if it's different than what you see eight to nine months of the year that you do all year long. Like you'll go to your team practices and they'll practice and they'll go to the board, uh they'll do a drill, then the drill gets blown down, then they'll go do the drill again, it gets blown down again. They're yelling at your kids. It's like, okay, great. Like, where is the level of repetition and volume that's needed? Regardless of like, yes, they do they need to learn hockey in the structure of the game. Sure. They'll learn it if they just watch more hockey.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

You know, I'll say this too when it comes to parents specifically. Um, there's two sides to that. I I remember, I remember this one. I was on a bench once, uh, I'll say it was a youth team, uh, which is fine, right? But I remember one of my players uh made a pass in our own zone right in front of our net, gave it to the other team. And I heard that player's mom just shout, great pass, great pass. And I remember being on the bench, follow me here, gang. It's like it was not a great pass. Right. It was the worst possible pass terrible this kid could make. Now, I'm not I'm not like shouting that either. I'm not going horrible pass, but like I remember that parent is just shouting because it's like like that's what you do, right? So this kind of blind, like, oh that my kid passed the puck. Great pass. Like, parents, you you do have a responsibility to kind of know what's going on. Exactly. And not encourage like a coach's tip don't encourage your kid to pass the puck in front of their own nuts to the other team, right? So I'm I'm gonna bring this back because Kev, you you made a great point early in the episode about not everybody watching has any experience. Some people have a lot of experience, some people don't have a lot of experience. I think when when you're a parent watching a shift, you're watching your kid play, keeping in mind too that 99% of that shift you are only watching your kid, right? What's what's your guide for a parent watching their kid play youth hockey? Uh, and and listen, obviously we want the kids to have fun. Like, like it's like we're we're we're assuming this is a great person, a great parent. They want the best for their kid, right? Um, and that they're they're not capable of being quiet. What what's your what's your advice for that parent? What should they be looking for? How should they approach the game?

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Yeah, I I mean I think you you're watching for the reliability from shift to shift. And are they able to understand the pressure level that's that's there? Is there somebody on them? Is there not? Do they have room to skate? What's their next play mentality?

SPEAKER_01 20:41

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

Um, do they under do they understand the momentum of the game? Um, do they know where they are inside of the period? And we probably don't speak to that enough of when decisions should be made based off of off of game time or or game shift inside of your shift. Um usually we're just I don't know, I don't watch enough youth hockey in terms of like, are we still just on on the clock, like one minute shifts and the buzzer goes, or or like you're changing on the fly, you get to a certain point in your game where now that decision is internally made by the player. And so I think the parent can focus on all of those smaller stacking skills that that aren't that don't show up on the score sheet.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Right.

unknown 21:35

Right.

SPEAKER_02 21:35

But I think and I think that's the parent's job, right? A parent's job is just, I mean, really, it's just to look at their kid. It's like, okay, be a cheerleader, be a happy, be a happy parent, enjoy your kid. But I think when it comes down to coaching, and what you're talking about, Kevin, is is like, like I call it like to me at the youth hockey level, like any anybody I coach, you know, like especially like now lately, I've been coaching like 12, 13, 14 years old. I'm like, listen, the only my only goal, and I'll tell this to the parents, every single one of them, my only goal is to get you ready for high school. That's all I care about. Like, I don't even care what happens here, it's to get you ready for high school. So we talk a lot about situational hockey. Like, okay, in the second period, you have the long change. It's like a different, it's a different game. And I think when players can learn that, when they know that, oh, wow, if I don't get the puck deep enough in the zone, and again, I'm not a dump and chase guy, but at some point the defenseman have to get off the ice. And how do I protect my D? Well, now, and just to your point, right? I'm looking at players that go, oh, that winger knows that puck has to get deep, and I have to delay to allow these two defensemen to get off the ice to change up. And that to me is really what separates players. They don't look like you might a player might look like somebody that's like, oh, he's just he should have gone to the net. How come he didn't, you know, yeah, but he's trying to help his other three players get off the ice and he knows it. He's not doing it uh by any other reason, but he's smarter than the group, knowing that I'm gonna help. So it's situational hockey and knowing you know where you're going on face-offs, what you're doing in the puck drops, all the skill in the world, and I think you know, when they get to your level, Kevin, like that's really isn't that the funnest part? Is like being able to take the player that maybe you know is beyond that box score, right? It's beyond the, oh, this player has 74. Goals and 38 assists. I used to I used to do evaluations for uh the the national team in the New York State. Like I would laugh at all the time. Like I'm like, this is our this kid is our best back checking defenseman. I go, that's not a good thing. Like our you know, I don't need you to be, I don't need you to be the best back checker on the team. And this is a little a little, you know, this is before you know players could just go, right? But you're just like, why are you always back checking? And it's like that you're the right D. Like, so you're really not protecting yourself and you're not helping yourself. And I think, you know, to me, it's all those little intangibles that now when they get to your level, you can plug them in anywhere as opposed to a kid that tore it up in like you know, nobody looks at the scoreboard and says, Oh, well, he scored, I see it in lacrosse all the time, right? The kid has a hundred goals on a season, but he scored 12 of them against teams that they beat 20 to nothing. Like, yeah, like to me, it's like, where where are you scoring? When are you scoring, and how are you contributing in the game?

SPEAKER_00 24:11

For sure. For sure, yeah. And this the strength of your competition that you're playing, and and also you can look at um the strength of your teammates as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

You know, I I'll say this too. I was writing this note down, Mike, while you were talking. One of the the greatest compliments I get is also one that breaks my heart every time I get it, which is I will tell a player, um, hey, here's some real valuable things you do in your game, usually away from the puck. And the player will say, Wow, no one's ever told me that before. And that's why I said it's a great compliment because I feel like I'm helping them awake into something, but sometimes these are national level players. I think to myself, how has no one ever told you this before? I'm just thinking of a conversation I just had with a national team player about uh being a defensive forward and how valuable she is as a defensive forward on our team, and that now I feel like I can put you out there in a situation where I need that. And when that call started, she was talking about point production. And I said, We can talk about point production, but this is where I see a lot of value in your game. And she said, Well, no one's ever told me that before. Or when I tell a player, hey, your ability to create time and space with that puck is so valuable. That's why I'm able to put you with one of my top goal scores. Wow, no one's ever told me that before. We've gotta, as coaches, be able to start seeing these things better at a youth level. Now, with that said, the caveat is most youth coaches are volunteers, all right. And I I will always say this I have nothing but appreciation for our volunteers. It's not the volunteers that have the issue, it's our ability to educate coaches to see these things because I think coaches are sometimes, especially at the youth level, just as guilty of seeing point production as the barometer of who's going out there, all right, versus skill sets and understanding of team play. Again, another good example. We talked about this a few weeks ago, is these coaches that towards the end of the game, you're down one goal and you'll load a lineup with your five best players, and that line completely collapses on the ice because they have no idea how to play together, right? And it becomes very individualistic and they they collapse or they turn it over, and these bad things happen. So I think when we're looking at becoming a trusted player, right? And I'm very clear with my athletes about I really like you in this situation. I'm trying to build their own confidence of oh wow, I I'm an I'm an important person as a defensive forward or a puck moving defenseman. Again, not that we're trying to nail kids into one thing, all right, but building that awareness of hey, you didn't score this shift. Here's why you were so valuable this shift, or adversely, we didn't get scored on this shift, and it's because of these little things that you did or these skill sets that you did. So, my question to you, Kevin, is this we're talking about becoming a trusted player. When coaches watch these games, what should they be looking for? And and when you think about becoming a trusted player, what are the skill sets or what are the the parts of a game we should be relying on as coaches that maybe the broad you know audience doesn't see? Right? I think it's a it's a really important distinction because getting out there in the last minute of play is not always about, oh, that kid's the leading goal scorer, that's why that kid needs to be out there.

SPEAKER_00 27:29

Yeah, I I think I mean the first part to add to that is just I think your delivery, I think the terminology and the language that that coaches use. Um your words of encouragement hold so much power. And and the way that you're speaking to that situation that you just explained, you're you're really helping this player um understand that that they have an identity. And I think that's very powerful in in any sport, not just hockey. I think there's only there can only be you know one center mid that controls the whole pitch, right, and controls the whole game. Um so what flipping that and and going to you know what what should we focus on? And I think it's if you can see, I want to get away from like where we talked about situational IQ, we all know that, but if you can start to see and and as a parent, track some of that development and progress from like six months ago, or eight months ago you had that conversation, and you start to see the same mistake over and over again, or you start to see that that that valid progression that's happening, your player will be okay.

SPEAKER_03 28:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

And and I think we're all these are are again being very connected. When Mike's talking about situational IQ, and you're talking about identity of a player, and and it's not just you know one one area that that need it's it's leveled areas that need to be be stacked um equally. And and then we you we go back to like the fundamental piece of it. It's like this is a whole like everyone thinks it's so simple. Like, why isn't my player getting better? It's like right there, there's a there's a lot to go under the table here, right?

SPEAKER_04 29:31

And I think we've all seen that when a coach takes time to explain the player's role and explain why they need them in a particular role. Okay, you're not the leading goal scorer, but we need you on T-S, we need you here, we need you there. That is definitely a confidence builder. I've seen it, it works, but not enough coaches, I think, take the time to help kids explain. And when you don't explain it, the kid becomes kind of lost. Like, what's my purpose here? I don't get it. Why is the coach putting me here? You know, I'm a right wing and I don't get it. So I do think that time to take it out to explain to a player is gonna make a huge difference. It can be a real game changer for them.

SPEAKER_01 30:16

Yeah, you know, Christy, I got a really nice compliment from a uh a parent the other day um that said, uh, and and again, I was I was kind of blown away by this. She said, You made my kid feel like they matter.

SPEAKER_04 30:29

Right. All right, that's what it's about.

SPEAKER_01 30:31

I really appreciate that compliment, but then there's the other side of that of are you not getting this normally?

SPEAKER_03 30:39

Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

And again, I think that I I've said this before, like in your hockey journey, especially the youth hockey journey, you'll have a few really great coaches, you'll have a few not so great coaches. Most coaches are somewhere in the middle, okay, and they want to learn and they want to get better, right? So the message to the coaches out here, based on everything, again, what Kevin said too, is you know, make these kids feel like they matter because they do. And I know they do to most coaches. I I almost every coach I talk to in youth hockey really, really, really cares about the kids. Sometimes I wonder if we're vocalizing that enough or we're expressing that enough. In in the game of hockey, a game that is based on capitalizing the mistakes of your opponent, it can be very easy to just point out what you're doing wrong, right? It kind of almost lends itself to that, right? Of oh, we got to get better at this, we got to get better at that. You can't make this mistake. And don't get me wrong, that that'll that'll harden a kid, that'll that'll help you build a lot of resolve and accountability in your life. But there's also the other side of it. Look how much we've improved. Kevin, to your point, um, last year, and again, I coach all over the age gamut here. Um, I had a U-10 team I was coaching last year with one of my kids, and I was kind of blissfully unaware at the start of the season that everyone was a first-year 10 U, first-year squirt player. Um, and you know, because it didn't matter, like we weren't looking at it like that. But when we got to this season coming up, and we had a mix now of second-year squirts and first year squirts, the progression of these kids was really obvious. You could really see how far they had come in a year, because now we have the baseline of the new squirts coming up who remind me exactly of what these kids looked like last year. I remember we were the coaches and I were talking of like what like we can miss this too. Like, wow, the kids really did jump a whole level here in one year. Uh, I love what you said about six weeks, six months. Like, your kids are getting better. I always tell you, uh especially the the eight you parents or even the six you parents, uh, you'll be amazed what your kid can do after one season or two seasons. You'll be amazed when you watch the 12U players play, they're not as far off as you think they are from eight you. Um, and that's a completely almost different game. Mike, you made the great point that once you get to the checking age, the game changes again. But I just wanted to make that point that you know, we we owe it to these kids to make them feel like they matter. And I'll be honest with you, it's not that hard to do. It's not that hard to go up to a kid and and uh give them not just a compliment, but but purpose and identity, um, and and on making them see that growth mindset. Hey, you know what, Kevin, your point, like, hey kid, you know what? Six weeks ago, you were really struggling with this. And I know you're not where you want to be yet, but boy, we've come a long way. Yeah, right? We're really getting there. You know what? Pros need that too sometimes, all right. Pros are very competitive, don't get me wrong, right? They they have they have the ability to want to get better all the time, but like you know, I don't ever remember a point where I didn't want to hear, hey, we're getting better, right? Kev, I mean, in your line, you're working a lot of players like that.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

Yeah, yeah. I think um, I mean, to touch on that, it's we we tell our guys um or try to reinforce it that you know there's three things that you can do today. Like you can you can get you can get worse or you can you can get better or you can stay the same. But two out of three of those like require you to put work in. So um yeah, I I think it's it's tenfold in a sense of to to see that progression over time uh versus the parent that sees them day to day, and and they they wanna they wanna just dig the seed up that they just planted. And that's why it's it's it's nice to visually see. Like we we use iPads a lot on the ice and and when we work with players in private settings, or because every everyone learns through through imagery, and everyone learns through visually seeing what exactly they're doing. And we can go back and show them this, these were some events in game, or these were some events that we worked on in practice. And here's you know, three months later, here's four months later, your your ability to move, or your you know, your ability to hold on to the puck and stutter step, or um, you know, look how your stride has lengthened. Um, there's a million things you can you can go go after and get lost on. But um, yeah, I think it's that's uh again, I'm kind of running running my train of thought and losing it, but that's okay.

SPEAKER_04 35:03

Hey, let's let's find out. Let's pick up on the video evaluations so you take time to help kids and you evaluate them together. Let's say a kid's watching themselves on video. What should they be looking for specifically when they're watching themselves and evaluating themselves without coach there?

SPEAKER_00 35:24

Yeah, that that's tough too, because I mean I was in I was at that stage, and a lot of guys uh everyone has access to it with all the video platforms now. And and you have to distinguish like not looking for the right and the wrong. And just mean like again, that this is coming back to the decision outcome. Um so I I think if you don't know what to focus on, if those coaches don't know what to focus on, we need to do a a better job um educating some of these volunteers and helping them and leaving them with um tools and and words or that are the same from like so. If Lee works with this team that's 10U, it's like you're gonna get pushed onto the 12U team, but at least it's the same terminology and it's not something different. And now it's like, well, what does that mean? Like Mike Lee called it something else, but Mike calls it this. And it's like the growth, if you look in the European game, they're so successful in these small Scandinavian countries because everything down like one hall, like the goal is to like work up and play on the men's team, but like they have the 20U locker room down there, the 18, 16, 14, 12, and like all these coaches collaborate, yeah, and there's no competition inner drive. And it's like, how many times have you heard the the the conversations around the rink during the year of like it's 12U AA or like 13 AAA, and these they're like, Yeah, we're number 20 this week. It's like, oh my goodness, like we're getting lost in in what doesn't matter at all, the week to week, and like that's how you gauge the level of of your program.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

Yeah, you know, one of the things I love you're bringing this up, man, because I think one of the big hypocrisies of youth hockey, and you could actually say youth sports, uh we'll just say in America, right? Is that we all kind of have this attitude of, oh, it's just youth sports, just youth sports, it's about fun, just to be about fun, which is true. Okay, don't get me wrong. But then we take this uncommon level of pressure and apply it to these sports while also just trying to make it fun. And it's like it the balance is off, right? I I have always been amazed at, and I'm being critical here, the lack of communication in North American sports from coaches at different age groups or coaches as a whole. It it blows my mind. I I told a story years ago about how I was coaching a youth team and I went to the age level above, and I asked that coach, uh, hey, what do you look for with incoming athletes at this age level? And he said, Wow, no one's ever asked me that before. And I was really surprised, right? Like, how how can I effectively coach this team or develop this team if I don't know what is needed at the next level? We did a whole episode on benchmarks because of that conversation, right? Uh here's another one. You want a really short, quick tip, everybody, for coaches out there? Like, you've got to show up to practice with a a goal in mind or an objective in mind. And I'll tell you what, at minimum, minimum, it should take you three minutes to tell your assistants here's the goal for today. Now, what I'd prefer to see is you know, a quick 20-minute Zoom meeting every week from coaches going over the drills, going over what the goal is with each drill and understanding the why behind each drill. Um, personally, don't think that's too much to ask for. With that said, a lot of busy people out there coaching, and I have a lot of respect for that. All right, this is the head coach's kind of job. But show up with a goal, not just the plan, a goal. Mike and I have said many times, Christy has agreed with this. If you show up with no plan to practice, we don't know what the hell you're doing. I just don't know what you should always have some backup practice just in case something happens and you're busy, right? Show up with a goal, show up with a plan, show up with a why, and also know where you're going. I I say this in all aspects of life. If you do not know where you're going, how the hell are you gonna get there? How are you gonna get there? You don't you don't know where you're going, right? So that it's on the organization a bit to explain this, it's on the coaches at different age levels to discuss this and and coaches individually. Micah, see you squirming again. I want to let you have some time. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 39:34

I'm just I'm just saying it. It's just an odd, it's so odd in sports, we forget like like we would we we would never ever allow this to happen in education. Like we just would never allow our kids to get dropped off in fourth grade and somebody say, Okay, what are you doing? Like, what's the syllabus for the ah at the end of the year they might be better, maybe they won't be better. Maybe they can read, you know, and then and but we would never accept it. I think the bare minimum is to have a plan. And I think, you know, in Kevin's line of work, like if you don't have a plan, you don't have a business. Like, like if you don't, if the players don't know what they're getting into, right, or why they're doing these certain things or what they're signing up for, then why would anybody you know pay and take the time and the effort to put themselves in these environments? Because they there's there's no you know, there's no end game. Like forget about ROI. There's just yeah, there's just no, there's there's no real concrete piece of this. I think one of the things um, Kevin, I thought I I thought maybe you could talk about a little bit about because of what you're doing, how much educating are you doing uh to the parent and the customer, right? Whether it's a a parent or an agent or or or a coach outside your organization that works with their your guys. Um like what are you doing to say, like, this is what we do, this is how we're doing it, this is our end result, and this is where we're expecting to get out of it. And then do you think if you are doing that or at certain levels, is that then getting more support from the parent? Like that that said, okay, well, now I know we're speaking the same language, like I know what your goal the goal is, so now I can reinforce what you know Coach Kevin's asking you to do.

SPEAKER_00 41:09

I think those conversations are are are a high priority because um we don't control their ice time, so it's important for us and the player to I want to hear what their coach is saying so it's there's not mixed messaging. Um that that coal that that coach controls each player's ice time. So the higher the level, the the more important that conversation can can be had with the player versus the parent. Um for sure, the parent usually comes to us because we focus on we take more time to have the volume and the repetition and the work to rest ratio that we have on the ice, usually only anywhere from eight, eight to sixteen skaters. So, you know, we're always busy, we're always focused on they're not standing back in line like they are at practice. Um, we have an intentional plan for every day. There's a focus or a theme. We'll revisit those themes later on in the summer. Um, we don't use a whiteboard when we're on the ice. We want to unstructure our kids. We don't want to tell them, here, go here, go there. Those are predetermined patterns and those are absolute killers for development. So everything I just said there usually gets delivered to the parent. And we want to simplify it as much as we can to the player, probably to a point where they can they can start to understand why we're doing things. And that probably gets to like a junior age level where those kids come to you now and they're like, I want to work on this. Because I think, yeah. Sorry, sorry, Christy, go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 42:42

Go ahead. No, that's great. I I think one of the big mistakes I made as a parent is when my kids were learning something new, to me, it looked like they were struggling rather than just learning something new. And I would get frustrated as a parent saying, Why aren't you getting it? Like you know, all the other kids. But they just kind of had to process it different, differently than others. They didn't learn quite as quickly on some of the drills. So I think that's an important lesson for parents too. It it just a light bulb moment hit me, and I was remembering back in when I was hockey mom, just like, why aren't you getting it?

SPEAKER_01 43:17

You know, if I may, real quick too, Christy. Mikey, you you and Christy will laugh at me here again. When we started this show, I think my son was six or seven. Uh, now my kids are both 12 and 9, both in hockey. And I am I am uh becoming very aware of uh how powerful selective hearing is in the home, in the sense of like, I I'm pretty sure there are times my kid might hear two percent of what I've said, and I'm making this profound statement, and they are just not there, right? That happens on the ice too, right? Like, and and as a coach, I've got to have some patience, right? We're talking younger kids, obviously, right now, all right. Like when you get to an elite level, obviously not acceptable, all right. But this is why I say like you got to tell these kids something maybe 437 times before it clicks. That patience has to be there. And the kids that want to learn are gonna learn that a little faster, but everyone has different days. But yeah, Christy, I thought you'd get a kick out of that. Apparently, these kids just don't listen to everything I say. Um, imagine that.

SPEAKER_00 44:19

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's to touch on that. I mean, that's probably one of the better compliments that that we get. Um, is when a player or parent says, like, uh, this is this feels weird. This feels this feels new, this feels uncomfortable. It's like, that's great because it's it's new, it's new to your game.

SPEAKER_03 44:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:37

And it's okay it's okay, I think, to to also go into that, Lee, is is delivering delivering it with smaller settings, three-on-ones, you know, two on two on ones, four on ones. But again, it's a hard industry to be in in youth sports because there is a lot of volunteer time, like to have those micro conversations and to always have those touch points with players. I mean, not deliver the the harsh feedback of the play that didn't work or the play that did work. And it's it's like just get to know them on a on a personal level and and everything will continue to grow in the in the direction um that that. Everyone wants to. Parent, coach, player, it'll be it'll be connected.

SPEAKER_01 45:20

Kevin, you just made me think of a tremendous metaphor for all this. All right. And and uh it's it's one I haven't said on the show before. It just popped in my mind. I remember my dad, and I remember when I was learning to drive. All right, and I remember he said to me, I got my license, and I'm thinking I I can drive. And I remember he said this to me. He said, You might have your license, but you really don't know how to drive yet because you have not experienced the road enough. Right. And he said, It's gonna take you five to ten years to really understand driving. And I understand what he meant now. I had the basics down, I knew the laws, I knew how the car worked, I knew how to turn and stop and read everything. But you know what? I had not been cut off going 85 miles per hour on I-95 going north past New York City prior to that, right? And it's like, man, when you experience that the first time, it's uncomfortable, right? And you don't know what to do. You may end up screaming at the guy and throwing something outside your window. He may end up doing something to you. I'm having a little PTS of driving to New York last week. I'm gonna stay away from that. But my point to you, you know, by the great analogy. Yeah, but you end up driving 20 years, right? So and you start to understand things, it's you know, it's funny, Christy Mike, right? Eventually you start to drop the ego in your driving, and you realize that guy's just an a-hole. I'm not gonna let it get to me again. Having too much PTS here. But my point to you is this isn't it similar, right? In hockey, you especially when you're like 16, like you've got the basics, you you you know how to skate, you know how to shoot, hopefully, right? You understand a lot about the game, but you've never been in this situation before, or not enough. Yeah, it's uncomfortable, right? Well, you can't just jump out of the car because it gets uncomfortable. You gotta figure it out. I think, Kevin, to your point, great coaches put you in a position to figure it out. There might not be an easy answer, there might be five answers. You've gotta let these players discover that on their own with some guidance, or else they're gonna crash the car. That's the end of the monologue of the the the monetage. Go ahead go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 47:19

No, no, I think you're yeah, you're bang on there. I think it's you know, we try to do a lot of um drill designs in a sense of giving guys four, five, six pucks, like go again, go again. Yeah, and the aired mistakes are probably the most important for the plastic plasticity of the of the brain to to learn and correct from. Um I thought I like going back, I thought Mike's the the analogy between like dropping your kid off at school and the education, the hockey. I thought that was I'm gonna steal that, I'll recycle that for sure.

SPEAKER_05 47:50

You should that's a good reason.

SPEAKER_00 47:52

I want to flip the script real quick. I know maybe it's not normal, but I I want to ask Mike, like you know, you said you're working with 12 to 14 year olds. Like, what do you what do you find the the biggest challenge is for you in a sense of coach to player delivery, or or like what what do you feel like is the most the biggest struggle that you have uh working with with this like this age group of players?

SPEAKER_02 48:15

Yeah, I mean across the board it's probably it's probably the gap in the highest level kid and the lowest level kid, like for me. Like like I could teach there's a ton, you know, we have a you know, I'm not working with you know triple A elite hockey players here, right? So I think what happens is we have some kids that have triple A elite hockey mentalities, like they want to be, right? And then we have the other kids that are, you know, if you told them, you know, there was a SpongeBob SquarePants conference uh the next day, they would go to that instead of a game, maybe. But it's just it's it's uh it's I want to go to that conference, right? I I think it I think I think it's sometimes because that age, like any like 11 to let's just let's call it 11 to 15. Like that age is so fluid in where the kids are in their hockey journey, especially in the middle of the kids. Like these aren't the kids that are getting selected for national camps. These are kids that just want to be hockey players, right? They're and they're good, they're good players. Um, they're just not, you know, I think the you know, and to me, I'm like a focus. Like I am, I I come with a lesson plan. I have a minute by minute program. I have expectations about what I expect the kids to be like in the locker room and this and that. And then and then you for you know, you forget that you're dealing with all these different levels of kids. Um and again, and I work with other programs that have quote unquote elite hockey players, but even in those age groups, I think that's the toughest piece is to is to accommodate everyone uh is really, really difficult because this the skill gap and the motivation gap is so big in that group. Like if you give me a bunch of 18-year-olds that all want to play college hockey, I'm like, this is gold. Like I don't have to tell, I don't have to tell these guys anything. It's like I'm I'm never ever gonna tell these guys like, oh, you can't be late for practice because it just doesn't happen. Yeah, right. But uh, but a 13 or 14-year-old is you know, seven kids are at the at the door at the Zamboni gets off, and the other seven are in the locker room talking about you know uh whatever.

SPEAKER_01 50:08

If I may, Mike, too, I think it's important, you know, I learned this at a young age, like the 12-year-old, you can be 18 when you're 12, or you can be six when you're 12. And there's kids that go, and you can be 12 when you're 12, right?

SPEAKER_02 50:18

Right, like and I also just to just to say that too, I try not to coach down to the lowest denominator kid either. Like I don't just say, like, oh, let me just make this kid happy. Um, I'll push and I'll shove and I'll I'll get in there and I and I try to you know coach them up or but uh but it's also a matter of you know, you know, again, I've I've been around long enough to know that that unmotivated, maybe not the highest skilled level 12-year-old might be my best 16-year-old. I just know it because I've seen it over and over and over again. If I could just keep them in the game and then somebody can find a way, you know, uh Kevin said earlier, like sometimes, like I used to get very offended when players left my organization. Like I would take it like a real, like, like, like it would be, it would hurt me. Like, oh, what did I do wrong? But when you look sometimes and say, wow, that player really blossomed under this, like somebody saw them in a different way than we did. And this fourth-line kid is now the captain of his team of uh in another place. And it's just sometimes that's what it takes. It takes a player, you know, having somebody else give them a different voice or having a different expectation. Um, you know, again, I'm not talking about the player that goes to six programs in six years. I'm talking about the program, the kid that maybe goes like after like eight years somewhere says, Oh, I'm never, I'm never the guy, and now I go somewhere else, and all of a sudden I am. And so I think it's uh it it's but I I know it's a long-winded answer, but it's the hard, it's the hardest age group. It's it's just a really hard age group because there's so uh every day, month, year, it's so fluid.

SPEAKER_01 51:50

Yeah. We love that you flip the script there, Kev. Like we're all for those kind of conversations too. You know, you know, you're making me think too, Mike. One one thing you didn't touch on that I have to ask about that age group, because I'm I'm swiftly approaching that with my own kids, is especially 12 to 14, there's a lot going on outside hockey these kids are dealing with for the first time in their life. Relationships, peer pressure, uh, you know, we'll say the introduction of things they probably shouldn't be doing. Like, as a coach, do you hear any of that? Do you experience any of that? Do you mentor to any of that? Did the kids confide in you about that? Because it's a it's a lot. It's it's a lot of stuff outside of hockey going on at that age.

SPEAKER_02 52:32

Yeah, I think it for me, it's like two different, two different times of my life. So it's before children and after children, right? Like before children, I could give a shit. Like, I'm like, I don't even care. I don't care what you have. I don't know if I'm going to conference your Friday night school dance, you're missing my practice, wouldn't it be crazy? Or like, oh, you know, it's your grandmother's 98th birthday, she'll have plenty of birthdays. Like, like I think it's just like to me, it was a different it was when I was 24 years old. I thought about coaching and what I wanted the kids to experience so much different than I am now. Agreed. Um, that it's really hard for me. And again, I think I've evolved that I have to look back and say, when I get upset when I watch a young guy, girl coaching and what they expect out of players now, I have to step back and be like, it's I I get it, but all the but you're dealing with 15 different families that have 15 different motivations that have other things going in our life. So, yes, all those other things are happening. And I I think I've handled it pretty well, actually. I think I I've done a good job of and mentoring other coaches in this age group of saying, hey, listen, you gotta build in time for these kids to have a free time. You gotta build in these times for these kids to experience other things in their life. Uh let them let them go out and and broaden their horizons. If if they're in a debate club, you have to encourage that. You say, Yeah, yeah, don't worry about this weekend. Right. Go go to Washington, DC and do the debate club. That's a huge part of your life. Because and we've talked to, and Kevin, we've talked to, I mean, Lee said it, like 500 different people. Um, and every one of them would say, it doesn't matter. Next weekend's game does not matter in the scheme of everything. Just go do something else.

SPEAKER_04 54:08

I so appreciate it, coaches like you, Mike. I have to tell you, looking back now, there were some events and some experiences that my kids did, and I'm so happy that a coach didn't put the pressure on them to skip it and not experience it. Because you want a kid with great memories in their life, not just, you know, are they gonna say, Oh, I'm so glad I went to hockey practice instead of that trip to Washington, DC? No, no, they're gonna remember that.

SPEAKER_02 54:38

I will say, I'll give the credit to Sue, my wife, more than it, because I would have made them go. But she'd be like, She'd be like, Are you kidding me? Like, this person's gotta go to this.

SPEAKER_05 54:46

This is not to go to that. Absolutely. Well, thank you, Sue. We appreciate that creating that softer, gentler Mike Vennelli.

SPEAKER_01 54:55

There are there are just just to jump on, there are very few hockey moments that can't be missed. And I'll say this too, that you'll know if it's super duper important to be there, right? Like I I got one of my players at a USA hockey camp this week. This is what's funny. Is she missing some things for that? Yeah, is this her dream? Yeah, she's very comfortable making the choice to do this over that, right? We talk about this, that there's a difference between looking at it as a sacrifice and a choice. All right, if you're making a choice, that's a lot different than saying I'm sacrificing something, right? A little gray area in there as well. But uh, you know, Kev, I'm sure along your career, I mean, you played 16 years, man, in a lot of different places. I'm sure you had to make some choices like this too.

SPEAKER_00 55:42

Yeah, I was probably on the um alternative side of just I sacrificed a lot of a lot of social events and um weekends where guys were you know chasing different things. And um but but it was my it was my passion. I mean I I grew up on the outdoor rinks in Winnipeg, and you know, you you that was your playground. And um just so grateful I I had the opportunity to play as long as I did and and see the world through hockey and and still be able to impact um lives and and you know players and coaches and parents just through the game. I mean the game of hockey's given me everything.

SPEAKER_02 56:26

Yeah, yeah, but Kevin, I think I think real quick though, too, like you're but that's a very it's a really poignant uh statement there that you made that choice. Right, right. Like, no, like like I think, and if if I gave it to a 14-year-old, I'm not gonna I and again, this is where I've evolved, I think, where I've been like, listen, if you don't come to this, you're you're ruining your career, as opposed to you make your choice, you and you and you could do what you want to do. And if you feel like missing something, we we have Haley Schemura on every day. We talk about her her journey, right? Um, our co-hosts and pro hockey player and Olympic gold medals and the whole thing. And she'll say, like, I missed a lot. Like, there's, but I never saw it as a sacrifice. You just said the same thing. Like, you weren't sacrificing these things. That was just a choice you made because that made you happier, like that made you wholer. And I think that's where it's different. That's where that's where I think non I think that's honestly why like a lot of people that aren't pros, that didn't get to a high level, that didn't play at a leak uh uh uh uh in their sport don't understand that that that wasn't a sacrifice. Yeah, that was just that was just them doing what they think they needed to do. Like for sure. It wasn't like you're sitting in your hotel room at the hockey at a hockey tournament going, oh my god, I can't believe I'm missing. Like there's a reason why you got where you got, is because that was your focus and that was your goal. And I think we and we've talked about this on the show a million times. If somebody wanted to be an astronomer and they wanted to go to you know NASA for the weekend, and that's the choices they made, and then you find out when they're 18 years old, they're in NASA, you're like, oh, okay, that was a good choice. That was their that was their motivation, and that was their, you know, that was their you know passion. Hockey, maybe it doesn't have to be everybody's passion. Yeah, well said.

SPEAKER_01 58:04

You know, I'll I'll say this too, as we kind of get towards the close here, and and Kev, I always appreciate you sharing that like the the choices that you made. You know, we talk a lot on the show from a parent standpoint, even a coaching standpoint, you can't create the drive, but you can cultivate the drive, right? I'm gonna take this beyond hockey for a second. When when you see a kid driven, when you see a kid that's driven towards anything, right? Hockey, music, NASA, you know, what whatever it is, you should absolutely cultivate that drive because that drive turns into success in whatever they're gonna try and do. Now I'm gonna tell you this too. This is the other side of it, parents. Your kid's driven in something, they're gonna get hurt a lot by being driven in that thing. They're gonna fail, they're gonna fall down, and the best thing you can do is help them stand back up and say, Hey, keep going, keep trying. All right, the amount of times in multiple careers I've had where I'm thinking, man, is this worth it? And I've just had that one person say, Listen, just just get up, keep pushing. All right, see what happens. And that pushed me to the next level. Those are the moments of mentorship that I think I'm really thankful for. Because, Kevin, to your point, like I never had to be told to practice. I wanted to be on the ice. I I wanted to play. If it was, Mike, to your example, and this is this is me, I'm not saying this has to be anybody else. If it was high school dance or play, I wanted to play. That's that's who I was at that time of my life. All right. Um, but I've also matured myself and understanding that's not everybody, and that's okay. All right. And and I think parents, as we look at this journey, you know, your kids are gonna be different versions of what I just said at different times. I've seen eight-year-olds incredibly motivated that are not motivated when they're 18. Adversely, I can tell you right now, if your kid's 12 and they're struggling, they may be the kid in a year or two that's we're outworking everybody. We just don't know. All right. And I think we all play a role in that cultivation of the person over the player. And I think if we approach the game more like that, just like Kevin does, right? That's the direction you want to go in if you want to find success, period, not just in hockey, right? Kev, listen, I'll g I'll give you the final word on that. Any just kind of final thoughts as we we kind of get to time here.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:21

No, no, I think it's I mean, dealing with that in my day-to-day now, in terms of you know, post-transition hockey, and is this the right thing for me to do? And and I think if you still have the mindset you you did previously in life, for me as a player, um, the way that I approach this this new journey is is no different. It's it's with intention. It's because I I love to do it. I want to be in this space, and I'll be a better person for it. I know that now because I'm older in life, but you you don't do that when you when you're younger, because again, the the driving experiences that Lee he never had. But um, yeah, I think I think you know, everything's been really, really beneficial this morning. Um, and really love uh the conversations and just want to say thanks for having me on, guys.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:14

Well, thank you for being here. And and for those of you listening, again, Kevin's gonna join us on a ride to the rink for your kids directly. I'm sure that's one you're gonna want to listen to uh in the car on the ride to the rink. But that's gonna do it for this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Uh, guys, remember if you have any questions, thoughts, episode ideas, we get a lot of them. Email us, team at our kidsplayhockey.com, or use the link accompanying this episode in the description. You can also learn more about Cascade Hockey and what Kevin's doing there. Uh, check that out after the episode. But for Christy Cash, Anna Burns, Mike Vinelli, Kevin, and myself, we will see you on the next Our Kids Play Hockey. Take care, everybody. We hope you enjoyed this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or our website, our kidsplayhockey.com. Also, make sure to check out our children's book, When Hockey Stops, at When Hockey Stops.com. It's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much for listening to this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey, and we'll see you on the next episode.