Our Girls Play Hockey: Should Your 9-Year-Old Play Up? (A Hayley Scamurra Mailbag)

Hello, hockey friends and families around the world, and welcome back to another

edition of Our

Girls Play Hockey. It's Lee Elias with Haley Scamurra and Mike Bonelli today, and

it's another fan

mail episode. We got a really great letter from one of you out there about hockey,

and I always say this on Our Girls Play Hockey. Obviously, this letter is about a

young lady who

plays hockey in a family, but the topic today will apply to every hockey family.

And lucky for you, we brought in a gold medalist every episode. to do that. She's

super qualified.

Mike and I are just schmoes, okay? But when you play for Team USA and win a

gold medal, and we're

going to milk that Haley for like 17 years, or however long we do the podcast.

Either way, we're on here for you. So we're happy to see you here today, both Mike

and Haley.

Thanks for being here.

I'm going to dive right in the letter. So for those of you at home, I'm going to read

this letter

that we got, and then the three of us are going to dive into a lively discussion

about it. So here

we go. My daughter will be entering her second year of 10U hockey. She plays on

an all-girls team

and has been with this same group since her first year of 8U. Before her second

8U season,

the club invited her to play up with the 10U girls to help establish the team. We

agreed, and it

turned out to be a great experience. She loved it. and made significant

development gains. I should

say real quick before I keep reading, in girls' hockey, jumping up an age level is not

as uncommon

as you think. In boys' hockey, we don't see this too often, but in girls' hockey, it

does happen

from time to time. This past season, she again played 10U and continued to

progress. Now the club

has announced a change. Dun-dun-dun. That was my best down effect. They're

combining with three

other organizations to form two, 12U, and two. 14U girls teams.

This decision was made without parent input and will require girls from our club to

commute to

another city multiple nights a week. Normally this would affect us, I'm sorry,

normally this wouldn't affect us, yet since my daughter has another year of 10U,

however, it's been

communicated that she's likely to be invited to play up at 12U. The coach would be

the same oneshe's had and grown up with, which is appealing, but the commitment would

involve, get ready for

this, a two-hour round-trip commute and late nights. With work schedules, winter

weather,

and no carpool options, this feels like a lot for a nine-year-old. Our options seem

to be,

one, stay at 10U, either by choice or roster availability. Two, play co-ed through

our

organization, though our organization strongly promotes girls hockey and we're

unsure if she'd get

a fair evaluation. Or three, accepting the 12U opportunity. knowing it would place a

significant

burden on family logistics. We're not worried about her ability or future

development. She'll be

okay wherever she plays. She's also happy with any option. She just wants to play

hockey.

This isn't about FOMO. We're simply trying to make the best choice for her hockey

development and

her overall well-being. And I'll say this. He does add this, which I think is a pretty

important

wrinkle here. He says, I'm also not sure if and maybe you can discuss on the

podcast, would it be a

good idea? to have her work with a new coach. If she stays playing with the 10-

year-old, she will

have a new coach, whether it's co-head or girls only. I had said before with the 12-

year-old

team, the coach is a really great coach, has really helped her develop her game

over the last few

years, so I don't know if that's also a factor to consider. Thanks again so much. I

look forward to

listening to this episode. Love the podcast. So two main questions here, gang. One

is helping this

person decide on what program they're going to go to next year, and then also a

conversation about

just having a great coach. staying a goalie um Haley let's throw it to you uh um

right away right

in the letter she said you know she just wants to play hockey like your thoughts on

this I think

that's that's a good thing to hear right absolutely I think that kind of can help make

this

decision maybe a little bit easier if she really just wants to play hockey and you

kind of go off

of her and see what she's feeling, what she's maybe more excited about. And that

might help youguys kind of like steer that conversation and figure out what the best fit might be.

Yeah, a

hundred percent. I think it's always important. Like, first off, great letter. I didn't

say, you

know, this is a really good letter, right? Anytime people write this type of stuff, I

love it.

Cause it's like, these are actually the right questions to be asking. And this is in a

weird way, a

good problem to have, right? Anytime you're being offered multiple teams and

situations,

you're actually in a pretty good situation. especially like we're recording this in

April during,

we call it silly season during evals and tryout time period where people are looking

for a team

because they weren't selected. So the fact that you have three options is a good

one. I think the

other thing we've got to say here, and this is my starting point for any of the

listeners that

might be in this situation. You know, what does your kid want? What does your kid

want to do?

All right. I think often I ask that and I get back, oh, I haven't asked. him or her yet

ask your

kid what they want this is their journey right they might be real clear look i don't

want to go

anywhere i want to stay in town i don't want to travel two hours a night or

adversely they might

say look i'm up for the challenge dad mom i'm up for it but you got to ask them i

would never

assume they're too young to have a say in that decision now again they're not

going to understand

what a two-hour drive is for you All right. But I think you need that input. Right,

Mike?

I'll throw it to you on that. You drive all over the tri-state area. You know what

you're talking

about. Yeah. So I think, well, no. Well, first of all, I commend them for even looking

at the

question and trying to figure out, like, what the alternatives might be without being

pressured to

do one thing over another. Like, okay, what are our options? And are we stuck

going in one place or

the other? But I think the ability to ask your child. I think in this case,

because the player is so young, it's not more about, like, what do you want to do?

But, like, okay,

what is your experience with the older girls and the younger girls? And what doyou like about

this? And what do you don't like about it? And then as a family, then you can start

weighing, okay,

commute, coach over this coach, budget, girls with boys,

girls with girls. Like, you can always do all those things. But I think first you have to

have,

like you kind of mentioned, right, as a baseline of. You know, what is the player

thinking?

What does she like about the environment that she in? And then if I'm pulling her

out of this

environment, is it going to adversely affect her and our family? So you got to look

at all those

kind of things because they all are equally important in weighing how we're going

to,

you know, forecast this opportunity to move to another level. Yeah,

I think, too, we got to talk about Mike and Haley here, too, that, you know. It comes

down to what

does your kid truly want? And I think that at 10 years old, it's really about love and

fun of the

game. I think that's got to be your focus. And we get these questions a lot, Haley,

on all the

episodes about, well, what's best for their development? What's best for their

competitive nature?

I don't know if at 10, that's actually where the focus should be. I think the question

should be,

where are they going to go where they're going to fall in love with this game even

more? Haley,

again, with you and your journey, when did you start? Let's not take it seriously,

but when was it

the point where you and your family were like, hey, look, you know what? We

should travel for you

at this point because you're showing signs that you're going to be an Olympian

one day. Yeah, I was

going to comment on that, actually, because I have a lot of familiarity with the

driving part of it

and not myself personally, but my dad did the drive. We didn't really start getting

into that kind

of commuting until I was in high school, sophomore year of high school. uh so to

be honest like

thinking about doing what i did as a high schooler as a nine-year-old i'm not gonna

be honest i

don't think i'd recommend it like it was exhausting i was running on fumes um it

was really

difficult and honestly like had no social life just school and hockey and that was alli had time

for honestly uh so i wanted to put that in perspective for sure um but yeah i mean

at nine years

old like the point is like they're with teammates that they enjoy being around

they're having fun

at the rink uh yeah maybe they're getting better and things like that but i think the

focus has to

be the fun and love of the game Yeah, 100%. And another thing,

we should say this too, we don't talk about this a lot, but your father is not exactly

someone who

has not traveled, right? He played in the NHL. He knows what this travel is like. I'm

bringing that

up because for him to make that commitment with you in the car, he knows exactly

what he's getting

into at that point. And the fact that you didn't do that together until high school,

that's a

pretty qualified answer is what I'm trying to say right now.

Yeah, he wanted me to go to prep school. And I was like, I don't really want to go

to prep school.

And I'm like, well, we can drive to Canada, you know, five days a week. And so it

was an hour and a

half drive each way. So it was it was a lot. Yeah, I don't know how he did it. If I'm

being honest,

I would just pretend to sleep in the car the whole time. So I wouldn't have to hear

stuff about the

practice. But it gives me a hard time for that. But yeah, it was it was difficult. I can

tell you

as a father that it's, it's, it's worth it. You say, you know, he does it. I know exactly

how he

did it. Cause the love we have for our kids makes it very, very tolerable. Easy.

I don't know. It's not easy, but there's something there. It's like, you know, well,

you do, you

just do what you gotta do. And I think, I think, you know, you mentioned, you know,

you probably

wouldn't have done this now. You're probably in a different environment because

of where you grew

up. that you did have a lot of competition at an early age. So at nine years old, you

were

probably, whether you were boys, girls or whatever, like you probably didn't have

to go seek out an

hour and a half, two hour commute because of the competition level within your

own community. So it

sounds like even here that exists. It sounds like there is a competitive option in the

communitythat they're in. So, you know, it's not like, you know, you're all of a sudden they

extract you.

you know they extract the opportunity to have any competition and then you have

to do you do have

to look at okay my god like she really likes hockey and i like hockey and we want

them to play and

we've got to start to look to travel but me like as a hockey director and as a parent

you know then

i start looking at you know okay well what are your options and you know that's

and that's kind of

you know where we're discussing this as far as as what do you now have to weigh

over

the carrot of, okay, she's going to get to play with the same coach on the 12U

team. Because

there's a lot of other things in there that you can extract from that time. And again,

I get the whole, and I'll hear this all the time, and you'll see it on whatever

advertising or

things that people put out about the time spent with your child. Travel hockey is

worth it,

right? That you're in the car with them for hours and hours on end. I don't know.

My personal

experience is when I see that, and again, there's a little bit of it, right? But most of

the time,

it's the kids with the headphones on and their iPhone. It's not like you interacting

with them, you

know, for three hours in the car all the time. So, you know, it's just, but again, there

is that

bond. That's why hockey does, you know, get that kind of special notice about

what you do as a

family to get you where you have to get to. But I think in this case. There is a great

opportunity

now to weigh the pros and cons. Yeah, great points, Mike. I mean, like, here's the

deal. I want to

answer this guy's question, but I'm going to preface this right now. This is a, like,

on paper

answer, okay? Like, I don't know your child. I don't know the logistics of the

situation fully. On

paper, I would not make that trip. I would not make a two-hour, multiple-night trip.

And I'll tell you why. It's not even just the time in the car. I'm taking into account

what Haley

said a minute ago, which I think is really important. Your social life is going to be

gone. That

team will be your social life. Not saying that's the end of the world. All right. But I

think atnine, you need other things. The other thing, too, is this. Let's just say that that's a

four,

like two games, two practice thing a week. Right. You're talking two, four, six, eight

hours gone

in the car. Now, again, you might have conversations. You might listen to music or

you might be on

screen the whole time. My question to people always is, what could you do in

those eight hours that

you're not going to be doing? All right. And again, a lot of this comes down to the

person, the

player. I'm not saying she needs to be training for eight extra hours or anything like

that. I'm

saying, could she be seeing friends, going to other places? Could you guys do

other things

together? Is that your family dinner time? Does she have siblings? There's 100

questions that come

up with this. On paper, I don't see the advantage of traveling out there for that.

Go ahead, Mike. I'm just saying, well, Haley mentioned it earlier. I mean, the

sacrifice she made

as a teenager. And one of the things I think we have to just, you know, really

approach at this is

that when your daughter is nine and she's growing and they're in school and,

you know, forget about the social life. Say you didn't care about anybody else. Like

you just

wanted your kid to make it to the PWHL, play college hockey. It still wouldn't be

the right choice,

in my opinion. Like not getting rest, not... up with academics, not eating.

It's almost impossible to eat properly. Like you're just on the road and you're

picking things up

and you're even if you plan things out, it's just adding all these layers that you can

you can add

to your development in a positive way by not traveling. Right. If the option's there.

And again, this sounds like the option is there in a couple of different ways outside

of the,

you know, quote unquote, playing up.

Yeah, I got to say this, too. Like,

I mean, Haley, I don't like to play the hypothetical game, but like you talked to me

about how you

did this in high school. Yeah. Is it possible you would have burnt out of hockey if

you had done

this at nine? A hundred percent. I like looking back,

I truly do not know how I personally did it, like on any sort of level. And if I had

done that at

that young of an age. I would have burned out for sure. Actually though, I justremembered though,

I did do another kind of commute and I was probably, I want to say 12.

It would have been before high school. I just remembered this. So this is funny. I

played for the

Rochester edge. So I was in Buffalo. We would drive to Rochester again. That was

probably it. It

was probably a two hour commute. I bet you it was total. Cause it was an hour

each way. And.

That was tricky, but we did have a family who was also from the Buffalo area. So

we would sometimes

switch carpool wise. Right, right. And that was helpful. But that was a girls team

that I was a

part of with this girl who I grew up with playing hockey. That was my second all

girls experience,

I believe, or maybe the first. It's kind of hard to remember looking back, but that

was a lot of

driving for sure. But again, like I. I think I was excited about it.

I was with a friend. I knew girls on the team. It was a really good girls program and

I wanted to

do it. But again, I wasn't nine. I was definitely older because it was when I first

started girls

hockey. So I think I was maybe 12 is my guess. And again, that's typically the age

where we start

having that conversation about playing with other girls and things like that. And I

wonder,

I'm assuming based off of who you are today, that you were probably one of the

better girls.

at your level in Buffalo. Like, I'm sure there was like, okay, well,

I'm the best girl in this age group right now here. I'm going to go with a whole

bunch of other

really good girls. Compliment myself where, and again, this girl, maybe she's the

best girl at the

12U team too. I don't know. But if you're not, like the temptation to, like that's

where I would

say, well, Haley, you got, you know, this is maybe a 12 is where you need to keep

cutting that

competition and driving that competition. to make you better. At nine, unless

you're just so much

better than everyone else that you're bored, then there's less of a good argument

to do it.

I'm going back to the letter here, just analyzing this now. It says, again,

the club has announced a change. They're combining with three other

organizations to form two 12U

and two 14U girl teams. I wish we had more information on why that's happening.They also said

here, too, that they didn't even ask the parents. So this could be a could be a few

reasons why

they're doing this. One is they don't have the participation and they have to do it

to kind of keep

a team together. There's also a scenario here where they're just trying to make

super teams, which

is not great. Right. Because now you're excluding people. I don't know which one it

is just from

the letter. OK, but I think I think all of that set aside, we're talking about hockey

players,

girls, boys, whatever. Going two hours in your age group is at nine.

there really isn't a really lot of good arguments to make that it's a good thing

because there's,

because if the end game is to get somewhere with this other piece, there's so

many other things you

could be doing for your development that take place outside your house. Like that,

like literally,

you know, can be done within a five minute ratio where you are. If in fact, this is

your goal,

ultimate goal is to get somewhere. There's so many other options to do it without

getting in a car

for four hours, five hours, six hours. I was going to play devil's advocate here in

the funny sense

of if I believe that if this team that's being created was like a super elite level team,

which, by the way, don't really exist at this age. But if that was the case, he didn't

say it in

the letter, which makes me think it's not. It's just it's just a new 12U team. Right.

Which, again,

I said devil's advocate that further kind of. supports the point of like, I don't, I

don't see the

advantage here. Right. Like for all the parents listening and this is when you're

older,

this isn't nine years old. Like I always joke, the only team I'd probably really travel

like crazy

for is if like the USA national development program called up and said, we've

selected your

daughter as a potential candidate for team USA. If that ever happens, I'll take that

phone call.

All right. Actually I'll hand it to my daughter to be fair. All right. That's not

happening at

nine. All right. It's just not. So, and again, just to kind of bring this back,

the father's not saying that's happening. I'm not, I'm not going there with this. I'm

just tryingto, I'm trying to create at least a little bit of a gauge here of like when it might be

worth

having those conversations. Haley, I should turn to you here. Like when the, when

the national team

started looking at you, how old were you at that time? Uh, 24. Right.

That's, that's, that's a super fair thing. Like out of college, right? Like, yeah. Like,

you know,

it's, that's when that stuff happens. Right. And like, I was hoping you'd say

something like that.

You're killing everybody here. Some girls had opportunities earlier, obviously.

Like there's an 18 to make and stuff, but not nine. Yeah, but teen is after the age,

right? Not

nine, not at 10, not at 11, not at 12. You know, it is getting younger. I mean, let's

admit,

starting to like creep in, right? All of a sudden, it's like, oh my God, a 12-year-old

phenom.

I'm going to try to get her to go to, you know, go to this academy or go to this area

or move to

this state. But for the most part, across the board, just want your kid to love going

to the rink

and love playing hockey. And I think we talk about this a lot on any show,

is that first you're interviewing your child, right? And then you're interviewing kind

of your

family. And then you're weighing the pros and cons of, well, why would we do this?

Right. And then

we have to take out the FOMO piece of, well, everyone else is saying we've got to

do it. Like,

what are you crazy? You need to do this. Like, you're crazy not to do it. And that's

where you

always have to say, well, am I crazy not to do it? Like, I think I'm actually being

sane. So it all

depends on, you know, where you're at. I think, too, we got to say, look, going

back to it,

you got to focus on your kid number one. are they excited to do it or willing to do it

if they're

willing to do it that's not a good answer like you you want them to be excited for an

opportunity

like that number one number two uh you know parents do you have the bandwidth

do you have the time

the energy the money to be doing that if it's going to put a massive stress on your

family do not

do it it's it's not going to play out the way that you want it to play out it's going to

hurt And

it's, you're going to have less time with your family. Look, we're not the show totalk about like

marriages and relationships, but it's going to strain those a lot. All right.

If you start, if you're not in the house for four, six hours a week, I mean, I'm sorry,

a day for these practices, that's going to put a strain on your relationships. No, it

might help.

Depends on where you're at. But I think it's just, there's, but I think,

you know, Hallie is the, I think really the best person to kind of hear from this only

because

she's in the room with all these other women that all experience the exact same

thing. Like they

all have to make choices at some point to leave. Like there's very,

very few. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I mean, is there really anybody on

the Olympic team

currently that even started out just playing girls hockey? Probably not. No.

So this phenomenon of of only girls hockey at eight and nine years old is really

new.

Like it's and I think with this organization, like he like they're mentioning in the

letter, the

fact that they're combining all these teams, whether they're trying to make a super

team or they're

just trying to stay alive. and keep a program together for girls like says that's a

that's almost

another that's a whole other conversation like why isn't this region able to feel the

full girls

team anyway like so that's a whole other thing but the fact that you're playing girls

up and you're

now you're combining groups and now you're like all these other things there

might be a whole other

uh you know uh view looking at this whole this region and say well why is the

region not able to

sustain girls, you know, a 15 person girls roster at nine, 10 years old.

That's a whole nother situation. But I think, you know, but for Haley, right? I mean,

these girls

that you're working with now and playing with now and competing with now, they

didn't have, they

didn't have the choice just to play girls hockey. So like, it's a hard argument to say,

like,

if there was elite girls hockey, when you were eight, you probably would have done

that. I mean,

I don't know. It is crazy to think about. I think I would say majority of the girls

played boys

first. I think the only ones I can think of were maybe some of the Minnesota girls

that said they

had girls hockey growing up. And I was like, that is a wild concept. Like, I don'teven think that

was an option until 12U for myself. So it was always co-ed teams or basically boys

teams with one

or two girls at most. So it's obviously. I love that there's decisions to make in that

sense.

I think that is like a huge, obviously, like accomplishment and like a testament to

the growth of

women's hockey and all of those fun things. So I'm kind of glad you have this

decision and choice

to make in a way. I was going to say, Haley, you're part of the paradox here.

Because if you guys

keep winning gold medals, women's hockey is going to keep expanding. And we'll

have to keep having

these conversations, which is the greatest thing ever. I do want to have a keep

talking here about.

the situation really dissect this, right? So obviously one of the options is about

playing up.

So I, you know, to a higher age group, I mentioned that in the open. So I do want to

have a quick

discussion. This is more generic. It's not so much about the letter about, you

know, playing up

versus staying put. I'm going to say it again in, in girls hockey, it's a little more

commonplace

to have girls play up to a higher age group. Sometimes it's based on the

availability. Sometimes

it's based on talent, but you know, I want to talk about. Should there or should

there not be

pressure on young kids to play up if they can? And if so, what age does that really

matter?

Haley, I want to ask you, obviously confidence plays into this. you know again does

the player want

the challenge you always got to ask the player um that might be the positive side

of it but it can

hurt too if if you get overwhelmed or you're not confident right like have you had

experience with

this in your in your journey i actually don't think so for myself personally i'm trying

to remember

i don't really remember what age groups i played for when i started girls hockey i

want to say they

were age appropriate i don't think i ever went up in age group i really don't think i

did uh

because by that time i played in canada where it was like junior hockey if you will

and so it was

just any high school age so i guess technically that could have been tech jumpingup just because

there would have been 18 year old girls in that league and things like that um so

it's that's like

a really interesting kind of point i think a huge i mean a big factor i think depends

on the age

and when you're jumping up like obviously if you're like in middle school and the

girls are in high

school that's totally different social-wise that I think should definitely be a factor

that you

would consider. So it's not just playing up like, yeah, they're going to be a little bit

bigger and

stronger, but it's like, they're like socially, that's completely different levels, I think.

Yeah.

And might not be as comfortable. Like 9 to 12? That's a big jump. That's a big

jump for young

girls, you know? You know, I'll say this, too, just to give perspective, like in

Philadelphia, how

it works. And again, everybody knows, or full disclosure, I guess, I coach a 10U

girls team.

And we're allowed to roster two 8U players on the team.

We're allowed to. We don't have to. All right. But what's crazy about that, and

again,

this is not directed at any families. It's just the mentality is I had a lot of 8U kids

trying out

for the team. under the assumption of, well, he can take her, so we should do it.

And,

you know, I was very – I talked to each one of those – I am proud of this. I talked to

each 8U

parent individually because I did not take most of them to have a conversation of,

we don't need to

rush your daughter to this level. The players that I'm choosing to take are very

ready for this.

They're showing me the acumen for it, the hockey IQ for it, the skill sets for it.

More

importantly, they want to do this. I know the kid wants this, and they're ready for it.

I think

your daughter needs to work on her skating a little bit more. The worst thing I can

do is put her

at this level where she's not going to be able to keep up. That's going to stunt her

growth. I'm

amazed I'm having a conversation, not that it's unfair, but I actually should not

have to convince

you that you should stay at the appropriate age level for your daughter. That's

exactly where sheshould be right now. It's so funny because hockey is more... It does a lot more of

this in hockey.

It really is. You don't see it in other sports that have deeper benches, like deeper

opportunity to

play because like, that's all, you know, Haley, you mentioned it. Like when you go

to high school

outside of hockey, you go play football or lacrosse or volleyball. You probably don't

play as a

freshman in the sophomore. Like, like if you're a freshman playing high school

sports, it's like,

like you're in the paper every day. Like, this is crazy. Like, this is, this is not like, it's

not,

it's not a no, it's not natural not to. Again, there are kids that can play as 14-year-

olds on

high school teams and 15-year-olds with 18-year-olds. But for the bigger majority,

like you see a football team, a high school football team, it's just, you're like, okay,

yeah,

juniors and seniors make the varsity team and the other guys play JV. Like it's just,

it's more of

a natural progression. But in hockey, I think it's because, you know, maybe we just

don't have

enough kids yet, is that all of a sudden it's like, well, we'll take everyone. Like, and

even still

today, like there'll be a time very quickly, very soon that women's hockey will even

start to break

up by year of birth teams as far as, you know, instead of 14U and 12U,

it'll be, you know, it'll be 13U and 12U and 11U and 10U. It just doesn't exist right

now because

there just aren't enough girls in those age groups. And even because at the boys,

that's really

where, you know, now they have 13U. It's just 13U. The only kids in that group can

be 13U.

For the other audience, I've also seen like 13-0 only. Or only. Yeah,

it's probably not even using the right terminology. No, it's okay. I'm here for you,

Mike. You'd

think I would know that. But you're just in these situations where, you know, if

you're getting,

like to me, like some of the red flags for me is, okay, we've got to combine teams.

We've got to

play players up. That's an unhealthy organization. In my eyes, like I'm thinking

going,

oh, well, it's like I call me up. I want to see where that organization is. I want to dig

in a

little bit deeper as why you're having these issues, because it's really not a healthyplace.

And then on top of it, I mean, just to go back to the playing up piece and the

benefits and not

like so you're really just kicking the can down the road for your player. Right. If you

play up

this year. Next year, you've got to go through the whole idea of playing up is to

stay with the

coach, stay with your friends, stay in the comfort zone. Next year, you're still not

playing up

because those people are leaving. Like the kids that are on the up team, they're

moving up. And you

can't just keep moving. I mean, you could, I guess. But most of the time, you're not

going to keep

moving up. So at some point, you are going to get a new coach. You are going to

get new teammates.

You are going to be in a different environment. So just learn to work with that

within your age

category. And I think I mean, I think any development person would agree that,

you know, first be the best person in your age group. Right. Be the best person in

your age group.

And then let's talk about how do you become the best person in somebody else's

age group? Yeah,

I want to say this, too, like in two parts of this second half is going to be a question

for you,

Haley. But like, Mike, you brought up kind of how the organizations grow in girls

hockey. Like

another thing I had to keep in mind when I was picking my team is if I take too

many AAU players. I

might seriously actually hurt our 8U program. Yeah. Because I'm taking two of the

probably better

players from our 8U program. Right. Right. And like that could distract the team.

They might not do

well. Then more people don't come in. Like I have a responsibility as a coach in

this organization

to have a healthy might program. Right. And it's like I want the parents to

understand that.

Like we're hurting the game if we rush anybody up. No matter what you think,

whether you think

they're ready or not, it's like, that's my decision. Well, parents, parents job is not

to think

like, that's your job. Like, like to me, like when I coached, I coached prep school

hockey and I

had kids that were, that were eighth, ninth graders that were better than some of

my seniors. Yeah.But we kept them at the JV level for, for other reasons, other than their skill. Like

that kid has

to go in the locker room and, and, and be subject to the kids that aren't that good.

Yeah. Just ripping this kid apart and not letting him succeed, not letting him be the

leader of the

team, not, you know, almost being jealous. And to your point, diminishing the other

team that he

could be a big part of helping grow. And that's the job of the director. That's the

job of the

program person. That's the job of the person who's trying to grow the youth

program is to say,

like, I'm I'm we want your kids to succeed. But guess what? Your kids are going to

succeed and

we're going to make it better for them. And we're going to help develop the

program for them to be

a part of. I also, on that line of thought, I don't want these families thinking that,

oh, I always should be playing up. And that's what happens. I played up last year. I

should play

again next year. Play up next year. It's like, that's not the way it works. I know a

whole team.

Look, I'm not going to call this crazy. I'll say we have to see how this plays out. I

know a whole

10U team that is still 10U age move the whole team up to 12U. The whole team.

Because they won their championship last year. And I'm sitting here like, what are

you doing?

And guess what? The organization has no 10U team now. And I'm like, this is not

going to be good

for the development of your organization. that's going to eat itself alive. And what

is the appeal

of going up a whole age group? What is it better? Oh, I'm going to have better

competition.

Harness the competition at the appropriate age group. Like, I don't know. That

kind of stuff really

freaks me out. I will say again, we will see how that goes. It's not my team. It's

another team in

my area. I will see how it goes. Maybe they will have a fantastic season and that

was going to be

the right decision for that. for that group and that, that, those kids. Okay. Haley,

this is where

I want to bring it back to you. All right. I know you said you didn't really play up,

but you are,

you are the expert here. What are some of the questions maybe at, it's so hard to

do like at nine,

10, 11, 12, what are some of the questions you think, not nine year old Haley, butwhat are the

questions you think the kids maybe should be asking themselves about the

opportunity of playing up

versus playing co-head versus playing at the appropriate age level?

like what questions you would ask like the child at nine years old like if they

wanted to go up or

stay with their age group i think we want to look at it from like the parent

perspective like you

just said yeah and then also like what should the maybe what should the kid be

thinking like the

kids look up to you right like what should they be looking at hey i for the kids i

think nine years

old i think the biggest one is like where are you gonna have the most fun right like

maybe like

who's like your age group where your friends are like I just think that has to be

prioritized at

that age. I really do. I think focusing too much on like the development and like, oh,

it's like

the best coach in the area. Like, okay, like, let's calm down. Like they're nine years

old. Like, I

think, you know, and like, let's say they're not the greatest coach in the world.

They're still

going to have fun. Most likely. They're going to be with people that are their age

and be able to

like do sleepovers and hang out like if you're doing that drive and going to play up

with the girls

like are you having those kind of like big social moments that are key at that age

that are like

core memories for those kids um so i just feel like that has to be the number one

question is like

where are they gonna have the most fun now so you're glad we asked her that

mike because you and i

have been saying that for years but i'm gonna be honest with you coming from you

it actually is way

more cool to hear Go ahead, Mike. Sorry. I'm just wondering, like, if you're thinking

about a nine

-year-old development, right? And you're talking about, like, having fun. But you

can have,

like, that is the fun part, like, developing, right? The fun part is, like, having little

goals and

reaching them. And I think. You know, and maybe you could talk about this a little

bit about, like,

what are some strategies then if I'm a parent that wants to keep my kid in a place

that maybe isnot the highest level and doesn't have the Olympic coach coaching my nine-year-

old team, which I

don't know what they're going to be able to do. Like, what are they going to do

that makes me see

better? Like, to your point, just, you know, they're having fun and they love coming

to the rink

and they enjoy it. And it's kind of a really good atmosphere. But what other things,

like, would

you want to see in a nine-year-old? That's not being driven by the parent, but

driven by a driven

athlete at that age. What are they doing?

I mean, I think, you know, in the practices themselves, like I think competition can

obviously be

fostered. I think teamwork can be fostered, communication with your teammates,

different things

like that being put into focus that'll allow them to grow as a person, as a player. as

they grow

older in the programs and i think doing that in the appropriate age group is

probably the best way

to do it because you're with kids who are of similar age and mindset and things

like that and you

can really learn from each other and grow and uh yeah learn how to communicate

with your teammates

i think that's like one of the great things about hockey is that it's a team sport and

you need

everyone and you have to learn how to work with people It is fun,

too, to see when you talk about that. We get that question a lot. Is my child going

to be held back

because they're so much better than everyone else? And the fact is, no. Actually,

you can expand

what they're learning. All of a sudden, they can be doing things that they normally

wouldn't ever

get to do. Literally, I was having this conversation with a player two days ago that

was just so

much better than everyone else on the ice and could go down and score at will,

basically. And I'm

like, you know what's really hard? go down, delay, find a lane, hit somebody back

door,

try to feed somebody that would never ever get the puck, learn to put the pass on

their stick at a

speed that they can handle. Like these are all unbelievable things that you can't

learn in a

practice because it's not real competition. But when you're so much better at that

age,you can now layer in all these other challenges that the player can grow from.

And honestly, What is five, six months of your life really going to do? I mean, really,

how much is

it going to change the trajectory of your life if, in fact, you just worked on a

different skill

set outside of the pure, I've got to play with the best kids and win a bunch of

games? You're

bringing up such a good point, Mike. And, Haley, I'll use you as an example here,

not just because

you're here, but we know you a bit now. Like Haley's game, I mean, you kind of just

described it

here about time and space and understanding how time and space work. And

we're talking at an

Olympic and professional level now. And the thing is that kind of summating here

everything we've

talked about, it's like, guys, the kid that's doing the work off the ice when they're

away from the

rink is typically the kid that's going to really succeed, right? I'm not saying the

competition

doesn't matter. It does. But I don't think it really matters that much until you're

over 14.

And then even then, I don't know if it matters as much as we think it does. Give me

the kid that is

shooting pucks in their garage and puck handling outside and doing it on their own

because they

love to do it or they're pushing themselves to be the best version of themselves.

That's typically

the kid that's going to succeed later on. Mike makes a fantastic point. There is

such.

a hockey culture issue with what is real talent. If a kid can go up and down the ice

and score it

well, there is talent there. If that kid can help their teammates score,

now we're talking about talent. If they can see the ice and find the ice and

understand that that

other kid I play with really has no shot, like hockey shot, but I'm going to get them

the puck

because I want them to get better at their shot. Now we're talking about a skill set

that we don't

talk about enough, being a great teammate, finding that open ice. All right? The

amount of players

that I see that make really bad hockey decisions because they have the quote-

unquote skill blows

my mind. So, Haley, I'm going to throw this to you because, again, you've talked

about this on theshow. Away from the rink, you were doing a lot when you were a kid,

a lot to work on your game. At the rink now, again, I know I'm gushing a bit.

I think cognitively you're one of the most brilliant players in the league. I really

mean that. The

efficiency – and I want the kids listening to hear me. The efficiency that you have

on the ice with

your decision-making should be studied. Every decision you make is efficient as

hell.

You didn't just get that overnight. So talk to me about – how your youth journey

played into this

how how you spent time away from the rink and how that really helped a lot more

than just the two

-hour drives to do it yeah i mean at home like when i was younger we were

shooting pucks outside we

had our backyard rink where we were shooting pucks we were playing games um i

mean when it was

summer we were doing street hockey I was also doing other sports, which I think I

have.

That's a huge testament for me as to why I have the hockey IQ that I do. Like

soccer, I saw the

same patterns. Tennis, I worked on my hand-eye coordination. So I... will die on

those hills.

Like those are huge to have other sports added in there. And then,

you know, growing up in terms of the efficiency that you're talking about, I would

say that's been

learned for sure because my effort was always there 100% all the time. But

sometimes in hockey,

that's not really the most efficient thing to do. And then you're just wasting energy

when you

didn't really need to waste that energy. So I think it's like knowing when to go

100% and when to

not. Because that'll also, you know, help you create more turnovers or help you

create time and

space for your teammates and open up plays and things like that. Because

otherwise, like at times I

was going 100% on the four check and then I had nothing else to give. Right. And

I'm just chasing

people around. It's like, that's not very efficient. So I think, again, that was like

stuff I

learned from like coaches doing video. They're like, hey, why did you chase this

person here? You

could have cut them off this way. Things like that. So it's been a lot of like

feedback and

constructive criticism and me watching my own games and seeing like, hey, whatcould I have done

differently there? I think it's a lot of self-reflection too. But again, it's all stuff I've

kind

of gradually learned probably from like college on, I would say. Well, that's

important note too.

You weren't doing that part of it at nine. Yes. Your efficiency has paid off,

not just with Team USA, but you can see the role in Montreal growing and growing

and growing,

and you're being trusted in some very important situations, which has been fun to

watch as not just

a friend, but as a fan. Thank you. I think my players used to get very – I think the

parents would

get confused at that concept that you've got to think quick, but you don't always

have to do fast.

You don't have to rush to get somewhere to do nothing. Thinking about why you're

getting somewhere.

And I think we're enamored by that in tryouts a lot with little kids. We're like, my

God, look at

how fast they are. And they get to the puck. And I go, yeah, but they literally

skated into the

corner and got nowhere. But they didn't really, you know. And the one thing I did

want to mention,

too, just about, you know, projection and where players go and how players

proceed. I mean,

the one thing I think we have to admit is. Like people do have to look at their

children. I'm sure,

Haley, when you played soccer and tennis, you were probably the best player on

your team. I got to

imagine you're one of the best. Like you had to be one of the better athletes. And I

think people

that's just at the end of the day, you just sometimes it just is what it is. You just

see there's a

young girl who's just better than everyone else. But then, like you were talking

about,

when you get to 18, 19, everyone's better. When you get to that top of the

pyramid, now you have to

be a different player. You can't just be better than everyone else. Because mere

mortals, the rest

of the people around you, are just regular people playing soccer, playing hockey,

playing tennis.

But then you have your really, you know, again, it is what it is.

Then you have your elite athletes. You have your players that, no matter. How

many privates the kid

down the street goes to, how many power skating classes, how many shootingprograms they go, how

much street hockey they play with you, they're never going to be you. They're just

not going to get

better. They just aren't. So I think sometimes parents have to be willing to look at

that and say,

what is then more important, driving and driving and driving for something that's

unattainable or

creating this other great person? that if, in fact, they can continue to play,

they can find ways to play at the next level, but ultimately they're just a great

human being. So I

think that's a really hard thing to struggle with, though, when you're trying to

crystal ball who

your kid's going to be when you're nine years old. I was going to say, I'm just going

to throw the

caveat in, and no one will know this at nine. You will not know this at nine years

old. I have seen

a lot of amazing nine-year-old athletes. that by 13 are not doing anything. All right.

And there's a lot of different reasons. Right. But I've rarely seen, I've rarely seen

like

horrendous kids that can't catch a ball and skip and jump become an Olympian.

Yeah. It's just like, so, I mean, there's plenty of players that were great,

young and fizzled out, but there's even less of those people that were horrendous

athletes and made

it to the Olympics. It's just, you know, so just. at some point you got to evaluate

and say,

okay, who is my kid? And how does genetics play into this? No matter how many

private lessons are

on the world or how many car trips I want to take for two hours. So there's a big

piece of that

that you have to have a discussion about in reality. But I know nobody will listen to

that and

they'll put their kid in two hours. They are listening, Mike. They are listening. And

they don't

listen to the show anyway. But if you're going to do that, what are you doing to

make sure that

your daughter or son or whoever, is like in the healthiest place they can be to have

that dream and

go for it. Well, before we close this out, I do want to have a discussion because I

promised it in

the open and we're getting up on our time here, just about the coach factor and

the importance of

coaches. I'm going to start this by saying this. In youth hockey, you will have some

amazing,

really fantastic coaches. They're going to teach you everything. You're also goingto have some.

really horrible coaches that maybe aren't great. You won't have as many of those

as you think. And

you're also going to have some very mediocre coaches that are kind of just there

to coach and

they're just there volunteering their time and they're doing the best they can. And I

want everyone

listening to understand this. You will learn from every one of those coaches.

Sometimes you're

going to learn because they're teaching you good things. Sometimes you're going

to learn by how bad

they are. But it's your responsibility to be accountable to learn.

from what you like and you don't like all right so you know it's funny when i think

about my own

coaching philosophies a lot of it i even wrote this in a dedication in one of my

books a lot of my

coaching philosophy was built from what i didn't like i what i saw when i was a kid i

didn't like

the way i was coached and i'm at a place now where i'm actually thankful that i

experienced that

because now i have an awareness of why i don't want to do it that way all right And

yes,

it will be unfair at times. You will not get the ice time that you want. You will not get

the

positions that you want. You will not get the things that you want. That is part of

life. So when

it comes to coaches, you can learn from every single coach that you encounter

from that experience.

Now, with that said, if you do find a coach that you really love and it's really great,

that's fantastic. Do you want to follow that coach around the country if they're

going to different

places? To me, that seems a little bit extreme, all right? Because the truth is this,

and Haley, this is where I'm going to throw it to you, right? When you look at

coaching at a high

level, and I think this can apply to the young levels, you don't want just one coach

forever

because that's just going to be one perspective and one attitude. You want it from

a lot of

different places, right? I imagine when you train, not just the regular season, not

just the

Olympics, but you're looking for people that have something to give you, right?

Like you're looking

for value. Absolutely. And I think I've learned a lot from having different coaches.

And like you said, it's like you learn what you don't like, what you do like. And likesome of even

your favorite coaches might have little things you wish you could tweak a little bit,

right? Like

it's not always like the perfect coach. Like there's always something and every

player is different

in what they need. and what they can get out of certain coaches. So I think it's a

lot about that

kind of relationship as well. But I know I always enjoy having different coaches,

especially in the

summer too. I like to have a fresh perspective as well and be like, hey, what do you

see here? And

what can I incorporate into my game? Maybe stuff that is being overlooked by

coaches you're with

every single day. Maybe there's something that they notice that they're just

watching film and they

go like, hey, I just noticed this. And maybe your coach with your team is really

focused on the

team as a whole and maybe not looking at you as much as an individual. So I think

having different

perspectives. perspectives is good um and i do think you can learn from any coach

that you have

like you were saying yeah and here's another funny thing about it right uh who may

be the best

coach in the world for you might be the worst coach in the world for somebody

else mike michael

laugh at this i have been told on teams you are the best coach my kids ever had

which is the most

wonderful thing to hear but i've also on the same exact team been told i don't

really like the way

you coach my kid all right so like that's what we deal with as coaches right

because the truth is

not everybody's cup of tea it's just the truth all right and it's my job to try and

motivate

everybody a little differently but uh i'm not everyone's favorite coach i'm okay with

that like

that's that's okay so i'm saying this because the perspective on coaching is just

you gotta

remember like of all the registered players in the world They all like a different

version of a

different coach all the time. It's not relative. Right, Mike? I'm sure that's happened

to you a few

times. This morning.

Listen, you're going to get – even the coaches I work with now and the guys we

mentor, it's justlike, listen, if you have a 20-man, 20-player roster and there's three or four people

that don't

like you and don't like what you do, count that as a victory. Just chalk it up as –

you know, wow, that's great. Like, like it just, you know, again, and there's a big

difference

between not liking somebody and not respecting them or, or not, you know, or, you

know, and coaches

look at players differently. They look like one coach can see a player and, and see

a kid that can

help them win hockey games. Another coach, he's a player. It's like, ah, like this

player just

doesn't do it for me. Cause they don't, they don't want to play the way I need them

to play. That's

all fine. I think that's, but at nine, I think ultimately you just want to find the person

that's

the best person that wants to be out there and have the most fun. I mean, there's

nothing at nine

years old, there's no system, there's no secret play, there's no thing you're going

to be able to

teach somebody that's going to make them change the game of hockey for the

rest of their life.

It's just not going to happen. I can tell you right now, at nine years old, if your kid's

nine,

this is what you want to hear your coach say when you ask, hey, what are you

going to be working on

this year? Skating. That's basically the answer. What are you going to be working

on this year?

Skating. anything else mostly skating that's the answer okay yeah of course you're

going to work on

other things all right but at nine years old you are still in an extreme fundamental

uh phase like

i hope they understand offsides at that age right yeah we've had parents like hey

tell me about the

power play you're getting on what

What league are you in? Does it really matter? The same crappy nine-year-olds

that live here in

town are the same ones you can play down in Philly. I said, they're all the same. I

said, so what

is, you know, there's no, like, and again, find a coach that knows how to be

creative with the

group they have and can find ways to develop them in any environment. Like if you

have somebody

that, listen, if you have, again, this person, whether they could be a coach that has

a thousandbanners, but if they show up at the rink at 759, and leave at 901,

it's probably not the best coach for you. Find somebody that wants to be involved

with your kid,

that wants to love being on the ice and doesn't bring baggage with them, and just

find a way to get

them what? To be 10-year-old hockey players. And how about, I think we need to

say this too. This

is true at every age, but especially at the younger ages. We have to remember,

parents,

you've got to remember, coaches are teachers. We call them coach, right? But,

like, when I look at myself, I am a teacher of the game. That is very much how I

view it. And

that's at every level. I love teaching the national team I coach hockey. Now,

it's extremely advanced. We're not teaching them, you know, basic fundamentals. I

should say most

of the time. We do get into them sometimes. All right. But, like, I love teaching. I

love exploring

that with the kids I coach of let's teach you something. That's something I would

actually look

for. Ask that question. Is this coach a teacher? Because if they're just tactical and

they're

playing chess and they're just caring about winning, they're not really teaching.

They're managing.

Look, I'm not saying those are bad coaches at some levels as well. Hopefully it's a

good mix across

the board. But look for someone who's excited to teach your kid and not frustrated

that your nine

-year-old doesn't know how to take a slap shot. Why would you need that at nine?

That's a whole

other episode.

But yeah, look. Having multiple coaches is part of the process. That's what you

want to do. Haley,

you said it perfectly, right? It's like you seek it out. You seek out the knowledge,

and you're

willing to absorb from good and bad experiences to know what's best for you. I

think that's really

important. I think at the end of the day here, folks, look, we always say it. There's

no path.

There's no perfect path in hockey, right? I think we talk about FOMO a lot.

I also think there's a fear of making the wrong decision. Right. And what I always

tell the people

is that I say this to my players to live with your decision, make a decision, live with

it and

learn from it. Not every decision is going to be right. OK, and that's OK. I can alsosay that it's

highly, extremely unlikely that any decision you make is going to be the be all end

all decision of

your hockey life. Right. Because like the truth is, is if your kid is talented enough,

wants it enough. And they, you know, that's the, that's their path. They'll find a

way to make it

work. Haley, you've talked about it before. I'm sure there were points in your

career. I know you

were driven to make it, but I'm sure there's points. You're like, I don't know if I'm

going to make

it. Right. Yep. Absolutely.

Every Olympic camp. I'm sure you have to deal with that. Right. Like, am I going to

make the team?

Right. So those are things to think about too. All right. Development's going to

happen in multiple

environments, my friends. It's not, it's not limited to one. And again, just to go

back to the

letter. I think, I said it before, I would not travel two hours at that age. I think you've

got two

great options at home. I don't think there's anything wrong with your daughter

playing co-ed, by

the way. I think that could be of a huge value and asset. The fear was, will she be

evaluated

correctly? That's very much outside of your control. I mean, just go do it and see

what happens,

right? I think that it's pretty well documented that playing co-ed, and at least in my

area, you

can do both. You can play on two different teams with that scenario. Play co-ed.

Play girls.

Do both. All right? And above all, please ask your kid what they want to do.

All right, parents? It sounds funny saying it. They really should have a say in the

decision about

their life and where they're playing. Right? Anybody have any final thoughts before

I close this

up? No, I think you're hitting on all these points that I think whether you're co-ed

or boys,

girls, whatever, nine is nine. and and just find a great environment to be in and and

even if

you're on if you're not evaluated properly at nine and you get you know put on the

second team or

whatever it is just then then reevaluate where you're at and make the best of that

situation and

get through that you know that that eight month period and then look and say okay

what is it thatand ask those real tough questions don't be shy to ask okay i got put on the

second team i wasn't

evaluated probably was it because she's a girl i really doubted i think it's probably

just based

off of somebody said okay well this is the time this is the team and the makeup we

want and and

here's what we're going to be looking for in the future and then you could say then

you could say

oh next year you know maybe being on a girl maybe my maybe my skill set and the

attributes i bring

are better for just the girls team i don't know it's just you need just you but again

it's not the

The one evaluation and the one placement is certainly not going to determine the

rest of your

career. Haley, I wanted to ask you this too, and I guess I'll end it, is that I imagine in

your

experience, and you worked hard. You talked to us on many episodes about how

hard you worked, but

you always wanted to go back to the rink. even when it was hard. I'm not talking

about the time I

was sick and I didn't feel like going. I'm saying at the end of the day, you still want

to be at

the rink every day, right? And that's kind of the thing that parents have to learn to

cultivate.

And Haley, I'd be interested to know about your father. You told us how your father

would push you

to shoot in the garage and your father would push you to kind of find ways to

practice the game

away from the rink. I'm interested in your thoughts on how that experience with

your dad.

and that experience with your family still kept you wanting to come back to the rink

yeah it's

funny i always kind of attributed to the balance i had between the two because my

dad was always

super intense like on me making sure i was like working out or playing a sport or

doing something

active like at home and then i had like my mom who didn't really know much about

sports it was just

kind of like you're amazing good job keep going you know like my little cheerleader

so i had those

two to kind of balance me out at times because i think it did get overwhelming at

times i think i

would get you know i had like i wanted to be perfect out there and feeling like if i

wasn't perfecti wasn't trying hard and things like that when obviously i was trying very hard um

but i think what

always kept me back was just like the bonds that i made with my teammates you

know the trips that

you took the hotel sleepovers the um you know at our house we had people come

over to play on our

backyard rink and you know all of those relationships those are all the memories

that i keep and i

know that kind of kept me in the game that kept me excited to continue to play

hockey even when it

was maybe difficult or uh or just hard in any way shape or form so that's what i

always went back

to and so that's why i'm just a huge advocate in terms of like the social aspect of it

it's amazing

i'm glad i asked the question because your answer is amazing it's like even when

we interview

anyone It's the people, it's the environment, it's the community, right? It's the

game too.

It's part of it, but it's part of an equation, right? So to the parent who wrote this

letter, like,

yeah, I think that's got to weigh in. Like, where is she going to enjoy the game the

most, right?

I mean, look, maybe it is two hours away. Like, that's a decision you have to make

as a family.

Please don't do that.

I don't recommend. Yeah, yeah. Highly, highly, highly say no to that. Zero to ten.

I just want to say this in closing again. Listen, remember when you have to make

what feels like a

major decision in hockey really for the most part, 99% of these decisions,

you're not choosing someone's future. You're choosing an experience, right?

It'll impact your future, but it's not the be all end all decision of a hockey life.

All right. You're going to be faced with a thousand of those decisions. Okay. And

really,

it's the culmination of how you navigate them all that gets you where you are. It's

not just one.

So this has been a really great discussion. And I do love, folks, how we can get this

letter about

a nine-year-old, but we can kind of explore the entire age group. Because a lot of

these

questions we get about really young players do apply at other ages in different

ways, right?

So it's cool that we can explain that. Haley, thanks so much for your perspective,

as always. We

love having you here. Mike, you're here, too.Thanks for being here, Mike. All right. That's going to do it. I'm glad I could

contribute. You

did, Mike. You did contribute today. That's going to do it for this edition of Our

Girls Play

Hockey. I'm Lee Elias with Mike Bonelli and Haley Scamurra. And remember, if you

have questions or

you want to write us a letter, you can email us at teamandourkidsplayhockey.com.

Or as we're

always evolving now, you can, as always, text us using the link accompanying

description. But you

can also now send a voice message and the good people over at Buzzsprout who

host our podcast, we

can actually text you back. So we've got a lot more going on here, but we love

hearing from you. If

you've got a question about girls hockey, youth hockey, anything, got a question

for Haley, send it

over because we love putting these up. on the air, but that's going to do it. Thank

you so much for

listening. We'll see you on the next episode of our girls play hockey. Take care,

everybody. Have

fun. We hope you enjoyed this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like

and subscribe

right now if you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast

network, a social

media network, or our website, ourkidsplayhockey.com. Also, make sure to check

out our children's

book, When Hockey Stops, at whenhockeystops.com. It's a book that helps

children deal with

adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much for

listening to this

edition of Our Kids Play Hockey, and we'll see you on the next episode.