Undrafted to Pro: Scott Howes on Resilience, Rejection & Reality

SPEAKER_03 1:35

Hello, hockey friends and families around the world, and welcome back to another edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. I'm Leah Laia is joined by Mike Benelli and Christy Cassiano Burns. And today's guest is someone whose hockey story doesn't follow the typical script. Imagine that. We say it every episode there is no path. And that's exactly why we're excited to have him today. He was not drafted into the OHL, but he did carve his own path through junior hockey. He signed pro, he played in the AHL and the ECHL. He won championships, he earned a playoff MVP, and somewhere along the way, he scored what many still call one of the greatest highlight reel of goals ever. A play that made national sports news. I promise you, listening, if you're a hockey fan, you've seen this goal along the way. We'll tap on that a little bit today. But what makes his story powerful isn't just what he did as a player, it's what he's doing now. He's dedicated to mentoring and developing young athletes, helping them build confidence, character, and perspective in a sport that can often feel overwhelming. That's like our byline for the show. Perfect guest today. Scott, welcome to Our Kids Play Hockey. Thank you so much for having me, guys. No, it's great to have you here, man. And I just want to lead off with that thing that I said. You were not drafted in the OHL, uh, which is for a lot of young players, especially in Canada, that could feel like the end, right? So, what was that time like? How did you process it? And for the players listening, how important is it to understand that there's not one path? You can do this on your own if you want.

SPEAKER_04 2:58

Yeah, there's so many leaders, there's so many different pathways. Um, I think now, you know, this time and air, like everybody just looks at one way. It's the the OHL, the Western Hockey League, your uh NCAA being maybe more so your American side. Um for me, I actually I played really young. I was I was doing really well uh younger, playing triple A at home here just outside or in Toronto. And uh I bounced, like I didn't want to play anymore. I was playing actually in a non-profit or not-for-profit uh free house league in downtown Toronto. Um, I took off there, skating there at about three years old. My dad grew up in the area, my mom grew up in the area. Um, it's still one of the only free house leagues going on at Moss Park there, uh, that's in North America. I don't think there's any other programs that are actually completely free, uh community-based. So yeah, so I went on, I played AAA again, really young. Um, didn't want to play, kind of lost a try for it. Money wasn't uh, so it wasn't a lot of it in the household. And I just said, you know what, I don't really at a young age, I just didn't care for it. There was a lot of politics and a lot of things going on. Even at a young age, I remember certain phone calls my mom was taking and and that kind of thing. And uh I went down, I actually tried out for a single A team from triple A down to single A. I was on the ice with my bro, my younger brother, and uh I wore a track suit and a you know helmet and gloves. And uh I actually became, I guess, part of that that team going from AAA down to single A. Uh team I think won like three games the year before. We won a, you know, a lot more the next year, and then we actually won a championship together and then slowly moved to double A. Um, but along those lines, uh again, I think that we we can probably get more into it. It's the the relationships. So, like one of those, the the coach there that I actually end up playing for, um, he was a a huge, huge role model and just a person that was that was close to to myself, became really good friends with his his son. And uh still to this day, like he was in my wedding. And um, I remember being about 11 or 12 years old, the man had a Cosmo had a construction company. He said, at 18 years old, you can come and work for me. So at 18 years old, I called him and I said, Hey, I, you know, that job that you said, I can said, okay, no problem. So I ended up staying, I stayed a month at his house and lived there and worked as like a little gopher uh for a little bit of money. And um, I actually retired uh when I did stop playing professionally. I went back and I worked for him for a couple months to see if that was something I wanted to get into or um to cover price. So again, I I go all on this this topic based on its relationships. So you never know through the game of hockey and what you're going to get out of it and who you're gonna meet and who you're gonna become close to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Yeah, those relationships. Yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 5:26

No, no, no, no, go for it.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

Yeah, so those relationships, super important. But back to Lee's question about not making it in the OHL. Uh, that would have been the end of the dream for a lot of kids your age. So what was it that majors say, okay, this path isn't typical, but I'm gonna find another way to make it. Tell us about that journey.

SPEAKER_04 5:50

I think personally I was just more naive to even knowing I can play at that high of a level. I I didn't have anybody. I people around you, you're usually playing your triple A, your, your, your bantam here, uh, going into draft year. Draft year for me wasn't even a thing. Like I was playing double A at 16, uh, 16 years old. Uh drafted wasn't again, it was I was happy to play junior A that was free. Uh, that was my my goal at the time. Um, and then again, getting into different camps and different skates and things around the area, I said I had some people around me like maybe you should take this a little bit more serious, maybe you should turn this into something. And so yeah, I I was I always tell people I was on the way kind of up, and there were some guys that were unfortunately that hadn't gone through their adversity quite yet at 1617. Things were kind of just there. Um, they worked hard at you know 12, 13 years old. They had a little bit of a different path, obviously, where they got to 1617 not drafted, and that's what we're talking about. Where hey, it was uh now this is the end. What happened to me? Or I was just I was playing on on borrowed time essentially. It was it was house money. I was just hey, let's do this. I see all see where this goes at 1718. I was just starting to kind of get into a rhythm and and a bit more of a peak.

SPEAKER_03 7:07

Literally, house money. That's funny. Right, you know, you you mentioned I want to pull the threat on this that you're playing a house league for free. We talked a lot on this show, especially Mike, about the importance of just kind of rec league and house league in youth hockey. And it it kind of sounds like, Scott, you rediscovered a little bit there a passion and a love for the game. I also want to note to the audience too, like Scott, you obviously had the talent, right? Um, and we say all the time, like, that's just not enough. Like, talent is just not enough to accomplish what you want to accomplish in this game. There has to be character, there has to be belief. Um, and I love that you said there has to be a little you know naivete in terms of of you know just youth, right? Of of that that I can conquer the mountain on my own. But I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you just about the house league and the fun and the freedom that's involved in that in competit in sorry, not competition, in contrast to like you said, I was triple A at a young age and it was overwhelming, right? I think there's a lot of families that get that FOMO of if I don't play triple A now, what's the point? And I'm I'm sitting here telling you, Mike and Christy are as well, Scott. I'm sure you will too. That is not the only path in the game. Not to mention, I'm not sure if you should be thinking about the path at that age.

SPEAKER_04 8:23

No, it's uh it's actually it's like so. I have a younger, a younger guy now who's a 20, 20, he's he's five years old. I was talking to a friend or he's six, talking to a friend on the phone just I guess earlier today after drop off at school. And exactly that. They're so what's like what's your your little guy? How's everything going? I said he's he's five and six. The parents right now, there is no real FOMO. They're they're the the joy like they they through the glass, you can see their you can still see their facial expressions, and they're just having fun. They just want to play. And if you look at the guys that are, if you want to call them superstars or elite players, uh, or you know, whether it's female or male, you see those same smiles. You see them, you see the reaction, you see it's not it's not a job at at 10 years old, 11 years old, 12 years old. And I think we lose sight of that as sometimes as as families, where you know, like your kid he goes to school, they have uh a bad day, you know, they carry that to the rink, and you expect them to go out and perform. These athletes that are being paid lots of money to do so at a very high level, they don't have any of those distractions. They're paid to do this. You know, what they put in their body. Like, I just the the innocence of the the youth. I get excited talking about it because again, they're they're just playing a game, and I don't care whether it's house league, rec, the NHL, the hockey game itself is an unbelievable game at any level when they're having fun doing so because the creativity, the speed, the the everything is just so fun to watch and be part of.

SPEAKER_03 9:47

You know, I'm gonna say this too, and then Mike, I will throw it to you. I promise I'm not trying to hide the microphone. Uh you know, Scott, something I tell parents a lot is that your kids are present because they're kids, they're present in the moment, they live in the moment. It's only the adults that actually take them away from that place, right? When a kid gets on the ice, you know, for the most part, they are present and they are there, and that's their world in that moment. It's only when we say, Well, if you got to do this, you gotta do that. And if you don't do this, this is gonna happen. If you don't do that, this is gonna happen. It's only when those things happen do we pull them from the moment, and then they start thinking about, right? So, can we let's talk about that for a second as well. That the the fact and the idea of that, like the kids are actually present, and then we can actually learn from them in this environment. Like, oh another thing I I talk about, you know, I like I'm very fortunate to be able to coach my daughter right now. Okay, and I coached my son for years, the audience knows that. But I'm not thinking about her, she's she's uh nine. I'm not thinking of her 12 or 16. I'm I just love coaching her at nine, 10 years old. That's where I'm at, that's all I'm focused on. And if she's happy on the ice, I'm happy on the ice, right? We take that, we're the the adults take that away from the kids. It's not really the kids who take that away from the game.

SPEAKER_04 11:01

Oh, 100%. You're it's again the the innocence is that's the fun part. Like, that's the I tell I I tell kids is similar to this, where the coaching aspect, even like because they're so innocent, because they're trying so hard, and this is something they enjoy. We've done our job if we become a cheerleader. The coaching aspect is done in practice and the games. This is where they get to be themselves and try and work and and see the little, you know, what did they get from who's learned what and where's what. And again, if they're if we've done a good enough job, it's it's packs on the back, it's high fives, smiles. So yelling, there's no discipline. There's you know, there you just let them play, and that's their at any level as a youth, they need to be able to get out there in a safe environment, you know, positive environment, practice. You can you can teach and instruct games. This is their like this is their their everything, right?

SPEAKER_03 11:53

The game provides the pressure. Oh yeah, the game the game will provide plenty of pressure, yeah. And they learn from it.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

You know, Scott, I mean, one of the things, and you as you're as you're speaking, right? And you're you're talking passionately about as a hockey parent, Christy and Lee, and we all we all put our kids in sport for whatever reason. Um, and I think, you know, one of the I we would hope that it's because they just just to play the sport, right? Just to be in a great organized environment and and learn accountability and and learn what it means to be a teammate and and compete and strive to get better. But can you talk? I think what some parents don't, especially new hockey parents, right? What they don't see is, you know, as you as you personally progress through the levels of hockey, um, I think a lot of people just see early success and the and their and their child being really good. That that's that is the path. Like that's the way they're gonna get to the big leagues. That's the way they're gonna get to play junior hockey. Can you just talk a little bit about the misunderstanding of how hard it really is to go from youth hockey to junior hockey? And that's like it's almost like if you can get out of junior hockey, it's a relief. Like if you can get it's almost harder to get to the, you know, once you get to the pros, like, oh, that's much easier than what I went through for the last you know couple of years. Can you just talk about that little piece of the journey?

SPEAKER_04 13:13

Yeah, I I think it it does. It's because it's you know, there's professional leagues and there's there's there's junior leagues all over the place that we get so caught up and focused in on this is our goal, where again we lose sight of everything else. It's it's so difficult, but because it's spoken about so much that it just seems like it just happens. It's it's for years it was Canadians going to school in the US. Oh, just get a scholarship. No, it's you don't just sign up and get a scholarship. Like this is like these are some really, really talented players from all over the world, let alone just Canada and the US. So yeah, the the early success, it does not guarantee a pathway. Being drafted in the OHL or the major junior loop does not guarantee that you're gonna play in the OHL. Um, being drafted in the NHL does not mean that you're guaranteed an NHL role or gig. Um, what it what it means is is you have an opportunity, maybe a little bit of a step ahead. But again, with that being said, there are guys that have chips on their shoulders, such as myself, that weren't drafted, that are are so into the sport and so into it and realize what is at their fingertips, um, whether they're a late draft pick or whether they're not drafted at all, they're going to be coming. And there is no thinking of, you know, he's a first rounder, let's leave him alone. It's they're coming. They want to compete with the best. Um again, the early success, there's no guarantee. It's let your let your child enjoy the journey, enjoy it as a parent as much as possible. Again, I'm going through it, I'm still somewhat new at it. Uh, it's hard to sit back at certain times, but again, the innocence there, they will get there however and whenever they're supposed to get there, if they're supposed to.

SPEAKER_03 14:48

I want to dive in real quick here, just to prove your point, Scott. All right. Um, how hard it is. All right. I I just did some research real quick while we were talking. This is the percentage of draft picks who play one game by sport. Okay, 40 to 50 percent of NHL draft picks play one game, right? Check this out NBA, if you're in the first round, you got a pretty high chance. After that, tails off dramatically. NFL is about 50 percent. Major league baseball, 15 to 25 percent. So even if you get drafted to a pro league, unless you're an NBA star, which means you are seven foot five. Okay, all right, like you're still not in a in a really great percentage, right? So it's like not that you need to know that stat for your nine-year-old, don't get me wrong. But like, this is why you like you can't focus on that. It's like you just gotta do the work.

SPEAKER_04 15:47

Like, I think you said it already, right? Like, I think that it's the the the journey of it, the the sense of it's not, it's it's not going to get you're not fast tracking, you're not going into a an end goal. People sign their children up for different reasons on the sport. The sport offers so much, and for whatever reason, like there's different people that have different views on what they want. If their end goal, I always tell people, and it's a joke inside our household, where if we are literally betting on our kids to make it, and that's the way that we're gonna accomplish ourselves and make it, it's a terrible outlook in my opinion. And it's also you have a better chance of winning the lottery. So go play that instead and let your kid be a kid. Um, I just I don't know, I get very, very passionate and excited about the the youth that come up and I say underdog um that knock some of the other ones out because it's again as much as sports are they're supposed to offer adversity. So if you're 15, 16 years old, you haven't had to go through it because you're just really good, maybe you're bigger at the same time, it's okay. Like kids develop and and learn at different paces. You don't have to be the best. You you just have fun doing so. And like anything in life, if you enjoy it, you're going to get better at it because you want to do it, you want to figure it out, right?

SPEAKER_01 17:02

Just to stick to the sticking to the the the realities of hockey, right? And and the pro hockey grind, as we call it. And I think like like I loved my youth hockey experience and and my junior hockey experience and going into college and stuff like that. And I was terrible. Like, like, like I think I look at I look at how you know how bad I really sells himself, folks. I look at how bad I went to American. Well, you know, when you in the theme of things, when you look at some of these and you say, like, my God, like how did anybody play against these guys? Like they are they are just superhuman, they're monsters. And but we all it's so funny how parents want their kids to go through this process. And I think for you, like, can you because you've lived it right a long lee too, right? Is like talk about like like most parents just have their kids go to high school, they go to college, they work a crazy, you know, maybe a couple of internships and slug it out a little bit and trying to figure out where they want to go. I mean, think talk about the like that that piece of the journey that's the horrible hotel rooms, the terrible food, the bus trips, the call-ups, the call downs, the the making the team that get cut from the team. A kid comes in the locker room, you don't even know who he is, you're like, oh my God, this kid's like my position, and they're bringing him in for practice. Like, what does that do? Can you just talk about all those? I mean, you talk about adversity and and you know, playing pro hockey, but can you talk about and not not the ugly side so much, but the reality side, like the the side of like we when we sign our kids up, we're not signing our kids up for the head games and the injuries and the playing through broken things that that you just have to do in order to continue to play and make this dream a reality.

SPEAKER_04 18:45

Yeah, the the the amount of sacrifice, and again, you uh you mentioned head games, it's I don't even think that coaches or or general managers, I don't think all of them meant to play with you know the mind games. I really don't. I think there's some really good people that I've crossed paths with that just it's the way that they came up or whatever. But uh one that sticks out for sure is again, you you go through your minor hockey, there is no there is no healthy scratches. Like you sign up, you pay your fee, everybody plays. Now you may not play a lot depending on the the style of the coach or whatever, but you you sign up and you play. So no matter how good we are, this is you know, you're you're I always say like you're you're not that good until you know you're kind of on the same playing field of of maybe not paying anymore. Then you're you've established something. As a youth, you're you're paying to play. Um, but getting into the AHL, it was I I made I made uh Manitoba Moose out of out of uh out of junior. My first few games in in professional hockey was was there. And I remember doing warm-up. I had a groin injury or something. I I hip flexor during camp, so I missed the first couple games and I was finally in the lineup. And we got on this four-game road trip and got in the room and I'm in warm-up and get my stuff on. And I we go out, we do our all-nice stuff and come in. And coach kind of just one of these, like, I don't know what that means. I I like I've so I had to like little in my my gear like running out like a you know 21 years old. I hey coach, what do you what do you mean? Like, what's going on? He goes, Oh, you're not gonna play. I say, oh I literally like conversation. I I just warmed up. What do you like? I don't understand. Like, what do you? I have my gear on like there, and it was a healthy scratch. So not even going into the game, I've never prepared. I've never like I was you know junior for the first year. I saw my number on the board or guys' numbers on the board, and that was the first time I've ever actually guys were in a lineup, but to be scratched after a warm-up that you took place in with your gear on and getting unchanged while your teammates are getting ready to go out and battle and compete, and you're kind of getting ready to get unchanged to get on a bike. It was a that was an eye-opener for me for sure. That was one that would stand out. Um, but yeah, the the the hotel rooms, the the the the sacrifice, the east coast league. Like we I think we did a three-week road trip when I played in Alaska. Uh yeah, we started off in started off in Alaska to like Idaho, Boise, Boise, Idaho there. Then we ended up on the East Coast, which we never crossed over. So we ended up in Trenton and uh in Almyra. Oh a couple games there, and then the road trip back out to to Utah and then Utah.

SPEAKER_03 21:07

You were on a bus for all that?

SPEAKER_04 21:09

No, we we flew fortunately from Alaska and Victoria and East Coast. Like I got we flew. Steelheads, but we yeah, but we yeah, yeah. And then we we fly to wherever we're going, and then you'd bus around uh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:20

I'm just glad you had a plane because that that would have been a bit much here.

SPEAKER_04 21:24

Yeah, no, no, we we were forced to fly enough, but again, three weeks and it sounds great. Like again, I remember thinking, like, oh, what do you mean you get to stay in a hotel and you get to eat whatever you want, and you know, money's limited. Uh you're you're on a bus or a plane, you're you're you're sitting there in a hotel room with another buddy that you're just getting tired of by the end of the road trip. And and this is a close-knit group. So I could only imagine when teams don't have that same chemistry bond, it's a lot of time to be with uh with another teammate in a group.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

Well, yeah, that sounds like some really rough days, but I bet I bet you wouldn't trade a second of it because it got you to where you are today. And the lessons of accountability, responsibility have got to be a pretty long list there.

SPEAKER_04 22:10

Oh, yeah. It's uh I I still I I would never trade any part of the journey at all. Um, the journey on the the professional side of the playing side has allowed me to open my eyes up a bit more and realize again, like these kids are innocent, and this is like I I absolutely love where I am now. Um, but it is, it's it's the sacrifice that I made as a player to to allow me. Like people, I give up my week my evenings and weekends, as you guys know, that coach. Um, I don't coach my kids right now. I'm actually I coach outside of my the family, so I I miss some games and practices there, which is is tough at times, but it's evenings and weekends. My my wife has seen us, or we've been together for you know, playing days where evenings and weekends didn't exist. You know, you were lucky to have a Monday or a Tuesday midweek that was kind of your weekend. Um, so to dive into that, yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't change any of it. I absolutely love what we're doing now.

SPEAKER_03 23:02

Yeah, I you know, I've been writing a few notes here throughout the show, Scott. And you know, uh I'll start with this one. You know, one of the things I want to mention to the audience, and I'd love your take on this too. I always try and think about things like I wish I had known that when I was 18, 21. Uh, because I think that that parents, you can you can instill this into your kids when they're a young age. And I I gotta preface this. I w I was I I love my teammates when I played. I I was You know, all about my team, but when you're trying to make it right, it's a weird place to be in because there's a struggle you want to be there every day. And like you talked about not playing, there are massive moments of adversity that if you're not mentally strong, they can be beyond devastating. So the tip that I wrote down is I I wish I knew that in those moments of extreme adversity, uh, how important just being a great teammate is, right? And I'm gonna say it again, I was a good teammate, I wasn't a jerk to my teammates, but I wish I knew when I didn't make the lineup, hey, I have to be the best possible teammate today. Or sometimes this one's worse when you're you're on the bench and not playing. That can be hard too, right? Be the best teammate. And you know what's funny is the things that spawn from that tend to be very positive, right? Because people do notice that, right? And and you know, we all know this too. Look, if you're a fourth liner in the NHL, you're embracing that role. You know, you're just you're just embracing it because you're in the NHL. Um, I'm sure that's true in the A and the E as well in a lot of ways, Scott. But but I'd love for your take on that. Because look, you were a leader when you played, you know, you you've won championships, you you've won awards at those levels. How important is just being the best possible teammate?

SPEAKER_04 24:47

Oh, it's so important. I I like it's I think you hit it on the head where you it's one thing again to not be in the lineup. You can kind of avoid certain things, you can do different things, and you kind of kind of exclude yourself from from different situations. The bench thing is the hard one. Like I played with some really, really, really great people um that that actually made quite a good career out of it that maybe weren't the most skilled, but they were unbelievable guys in the locker room, they were unbelievable guys on the bench. You know, they stood up for one another. Again, it's it's a tough role, like you said, the third, fourth line. And I'm I'm going back when I was playing, like we're going back 10 to 12 years ago. It's a little bit of a different game now, but you had guys that that fought. Like that was just what they that was what they did. They, you know, they they they weren't scored against a little bit of energy, but they they fought and they'd only play five, six shifts. I honestly like my my hat goes off to those guys. I was playing, you know, me not playing a lot was uh five, six shifts a period, right? Them not, it's five, six shifts a game. It's a it's a mindset. So watching them, and I had some again some older guys, younger guys that just unbelievable team guys, but it's so important. Again, I I tell people you what's the difference? Like the the the margin is so small. Yeah, like if you're a jerk and this is what you do and you're a really good hockey player, the chances of you being really, really good and being a jerk and being better or that much better than a guy from Canada being in the US or a person in Switzerland or wherever that is, the margin's so small. So if if you're the jerk, you're probably out. If you're a nice person and you are a good teammate and you are, you know, even on point with caliber, yeah, you're gonna be okay. You're gonna you're you'll prolong your career by, you know, if you're talking pro, you're gonna prolong your career just by being a good person. Like forget about hockey.

SPEAKER_03 26:29

We we we should quickly, I think everyone's gonna get a laugh out of this. We should talk about that jerk for a second because I think there's a lot of kids who mistake being a jerk like on the ice and off the ice. They're they're very different things. Like some of the nicest people I have ever played with are the meanest, most competitive people I have ever been on the ice with. That I'm usually happy they're on my team, right? But that's like that alter ego. So, what I would say to kids is I want you to be a competitor out there, like compete is a skill, like belief is a skill. And when you're out there, you know, obviously following the rules and with high character, go compete, go do what you gotta do. But but being a jerk off the ice does not translate the way you think it does off the ice. And and I'll be honest with the kids out there, you're being a big jerk off the ice. Typically, that tells me you're a little more worried about something than the kids you're teasing, right? We don't have to go too deep into that, but yeah, Scott, right? Like, I'm sure you play with guys like that, you know.

SPEAKER_04 27:30

Yeah, like it's it yeah, I I think of guys off the hop that are again, like they were super, super mean, and they were, but when you got off that ice, they were the first ones to give you a hug, a handshake, a you know, they they the jokers of the room and the like you wonder why. And and then people that maybe don't know the game aren't as close to the game and they're going through it, that wonder why how does this person just keep getting contracts? Why does this person keep getting signed? Or what's the there's two, in my opinion, that are big ones that stand out. One, it's it's the glue guy, we call them in the locker room, and what are they like in the room and what are they like on the bench? And two, how versatile are they? Right? There's guys that are that play again in the American League or NHL now, or even the the women's side that can play forward in defense. Well, how do you take them out of lineup? Why would you not give them the contract? You can play anywhere you want, right? So the I I go back on the you side where I'm I'm told that at 10 years old, 11 years old, my kids are center. Well, I you know, I don't know if that's the case yet. We don't we don't even have positions anymore. I don't think that's but that's my point is I I think those are the two that you're always trying to form a team around, or how versatile and how good of a person are they on and off the ice. It's that's your character, that's your your culture, and that's again what's essentially what's win championships. It's never the and I'll dive kind of into this part where I don't think it's anything to do with the the sport itself. Like if we look at the professional side, like there's upsets. Yeah, I can almost guarantee that if we go down the the table on on why the upset happened, it's never to really do with the on ice sport or or talk hockey, obviously, it's but it's wives, girlfriends, teammates, and that's what it comes down to. Where for the youth side, it's parents, teammates, how are they interacting? What's the if there's a divide and a breakup and unfortunately tryouts and all that stuff happens early and it ruins at least here, it's it's a joke and it ruins your team. And we we call it silly season, yeah. Silly season, yeah. Yeah, it's which is awful coaches and parents, but if you go down the there's upsets, and I can again it's it's not because the team is worse, or that it's are they willing to do the extra little bit? Are they willing to block the shot for their buddy because they're that close? Did something seep into the dressing room? And again, I talk at the professional level where I was on some really good teams that didn't win, and you look back at it again, you don't realize in the time, but what was it? Well, like, was it a check that you avoided just because you you you were close, but you weren't that close? And I go back to championships where you know, guys playing with broken feet and broken hands, and you know, there's stitches all over the faces, and they smile, they'd be at the rink, and they're they're the exact same personality. The the closer I get goosebumps thinking about where that's your difference, and it's what seeps into the dressing room.

SPEAKER_03 30:08

I I I always I always like to say that we say it on the show. I I don't mind reminding people gang winning is really hard. It's really really hard, and I I don't think lots of people understand how hard I know people go, oh yeah, it's hard. No, the margin for for this is razor thin, and it's got to love it. It's like, was it the hit I didn't make? Or at the pro level, was it the puck I didn't dive in front of? Yeah, right. It's those little things that build, all right. And and it's no different at the youth level. Actually, the gap is probably bigger, right? Of of what you don't know, right? But winning is hard, the odds are never in your favor. I don't care how many weekend tournaments you play, I don't care how many teams, it's not easy to win. No, and and when I see people chasing that, like, oh, I gotta go to this organization because they win. I'm like, what are you doing? Yeah, like that is the odds are still not in your favor. We're gonna go nationals. Great, it's great for you. Like, yeah, you know, just go play.

SPEAKER_04 31:09

Yeah, it's the the the super teams, right? Like they're there are starting to become both in Canada and the US and and I'm sure everywhere else. It's it is you're you there, there's no guarantee. And it's one of my my favorite. I'm sure the players I've had for a couple years now are tired of hearing it, but it's just something I you can't just put your uniform on and think that you get your two points. Like you you still do have to compete because those players also want it. Like they do want to knock you off. I don't like no matter how good you are. That's the the beauty of sport. Like, that's the if it was, you know, if there was no maybe, we wouldn't play. Like the competitive part is what makes it.

SPEAKER_03 31:42

I will say it again. I have never worked with the team that has told me, man, we want to come in fifth this year. I've never worked with a team that has said that. Sorry, Christy. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

No, it's yeah, and you see it at playoffs now too. The teams that are so hungry that just let like we just saw it with the Buffalo Stavers, right? Super hungry, they were down, and then they score, you know, seven. There were four goals, right? In seven minutes. Right, so you never know. You never know, never assume that you built this.

SPEAKER_03 32:20

Shout out for my flyers here if you're gonna be able to do it. A collective groan from all of Canada right now. Just uh Canada, we love you.

SPEAKER_04 32:29

Don't don't be, I gotta be honest here. I also jumping on the Buffalo bandwagon here, Christy. So yeah, it's hard enough to regularly go. I'm like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

So there's a prime example, you know. You say you okay, you build these super teams, but you'd never know. And you'd especially see it now where every shift in playoffs, the team is hungry. It's just such an exciting time to watch. But speaking of speaking of highlights, we need to get to that crazy highlight goal that we would be remiss not to have you relive that moment for us. The goal that became known as one of the greatest highlight real goals ever. Take us back to that moment, relive it for us. What was that like? And what was it like after that goal was scored?

SPEAKER_03 33:15

It's not before you begin for the listening audience. If you go to YouTube, because we can't we we legally cannot share it here. If you go to YouTube and look Scott Howe's goal, it will pop up. Yeah, that's H-O-W-E-S, by the way. I didn't say his name in the open fully. Go watch the pause, just go watch this real quick. It's the ultimate tick-tateau. And then come back. Yeah, probably great though. All right, Scott, we'll finish.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

And if you're and if you're a defending coach, it's almost like though, if you're describing it and you're watching a football game and you're watching the tackles, it's the basically the same, it's the equivalent to what the hell were you doing?

SPEAKER_02 33:56

Okay, you've got to either way.

SPEAKER_04 34:00

It's uh it's one of those things that just like everything clicks, right? Like it's you're playing at a high level, it's it's a high level. Like guys are the East Coast League back then was it was three lines. Like you're you didn't dress unless you were playing. It was a development league uh through and through. So like, yeah, everything went went just right. Um, the the defense are not sure. Like it's you know, that same player we played all season long the last couple years, and they they never stick checked, they went for stick checks and uh turning and spinning instead of body on body, like everything just kind of clicked. Um, the joke that most don't know because we talk about the goal is our line combined in the first period because that was a first period goal. And and again, back then, very rarely was there like a news station that was actually recording any sort. So they were probably there to do weather or something, let's be honest. And they caught the goal and it and it really worked out. Um, but again, like our line combined for like 12 points in the first period. Wow. I don't know if we touched the point the the puck again in the second or third. Like our game was that was it. Like we're we're done. We're um, but yeah, we everything again, everything clicked. Um, our our the guy that scored was Adam Taylor. Uh Taylor he he walked around with a cell phone. Guys were again back then you in the dressing room the the the the batter back and forth and chirping and everything else, and he walked around with a cell phone and it was hitting like it was close to a million a million views on YouTube. Oh my gosh. Where so you'd pull it out and the guys would say something to him, and you know, all you had to do was tap it in and you kind of pull his phone. Oh, sorry, I didn't see you get a million views, and he kind of um, but yeah, though we it was it was definitely it was a really cool experience. The the city got behind it, the the teammates like again, we still it still comes up. I still have buddies that kind of send it to me every once in a while, and um it's but we're we're we're almost I don't know yeah, almost 15 years, I think, from what happened, or maybe yeah, close to it, probably.

SPEAKER_03 35:49

Yeah, I gotta tell the audience, Scott. First, that was a fair description, but you're still being a little humble because the the little dipsy doos you did on that play were pretty like it. It is gonna be my goal here. Uh we can't share it on the episode, but I am gonna share that as a mini clip. I'm gonna try and get that to go viral again for you. Uh, but I also gotta tell the kids we we do have to say this because we talk about how it's all highlights nowadays, right? I I love that you brought up, you know, there was a whole game after this that had to be played. Like, by the way, on the highlight clip, it doesn't even say if you want to lost the game. I mean I know, right?

SPEAKER_02 36:22

Yeah, it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_03 36:25

It doesn't matter. But I do want to tell the kids that that uh look, we are gonna share this because it's it's one of the best goals ever, right? Like team team goals. There's so much skill, so much training, so much things that went into that, though. It's never just the highlight, right? And and Scott, I I you're a coach, and again, we're getting into coaching in a minute after we finish about talking about your career, but I do want to open this up for a minute because we are seeing it across the board. Hockey IQ is way, way down. Hockey skill has never been higher. The amount of 10-year-olds that can do a Michigan and do things with their stick that I couldn't do at 10, never been higher. But but not understanding basic concepts of finding open ice, understanding defensive positioning, gap control. We said earlier, understanding that your position on the face-off after the face-off pretty much does not matter anymore. Okay, like like in the game, maybe a little bit, right? Can you talk for a minute as a coach about how again, someone who was part of a massive highlight, how that there's more to the game than just these these highlights?

SPEAKER_04 37:29

No, there's there's again, I'm I'm glad you touched on it. Like the the amount of things or times I tell kids and and parents they so what do we need to organize? Do you watch hockey? Like, yeah, you know, I saw the highlight, and it's it's you know, eating cereal before school or something, and be like, no, even just a period, watch a period, find a player, watch that, and see what they do because you're watching a a snippet of what they're actually doing throughout the whole game. Some guys won't touch a puck. I've had games where like I I was up there in record in the East Coast League on 14 shots in a game. I walked away. Guys were scoring behind the goal line. I didn't walk away with a point. I the puck was with me the entire time. I just I couldn't, nothing would work. My point to it is it's never just the the the side of the highlights. There is more to a game. Uh the the fact of the the hockey IQ, um, it's a tough one. Like that one, I I joke. I never played D. I never played center, I played wing. And the ongoing joke there when I was playing was I wasn't I wasn't smart enough to play D. I wasn't a hard enough worker to play center. Oh damn. So I played wing. Okay, and that was the ongoing throat or whatever, and which is completely obviously false, but it's that's just the the ongoing way of doing it. And I I I broke up drills, I would, I was a I wasn't a great practice player. That all said, the hockey IQ piece, I always thought it was more of a thing that you worked on or more natural, or what it's not, it's it's it's watching the game, it's it's just stop with the the fancy and the the give me sin again. I we run training back home and we do we put things on the ice and it's we flip things over and I try to make it as game-like as possible. But unless you're actually watching a hockey, and that's why I talked earlier about the house league and the any any level you're it's the same thing like house league, you're taught don't put the puck in the middle of the ice, go you have the boards. Well, yeah. And you know, when when things get dangerous or whatever, you know, in tight games in the NHL, you typically you don't put it up the middle, you go the boards, uh urgency to get to the net. Well, you watch a goalie get pulled in the NHL on how many shots just keep going and going and going towards net. Well, that's your your whole hockey is just everything just simplifies and it's not the fancy over the back, and it's not uh so yeah. I sorry, I kind of rambled it, but it's no, it was I don't perfect. Yeah, like I the the the side of the skill set is is stuff like you talked about. I I was I was known for my stick, my hands were were good, but it wasn't anything based on outside of the hockey game. You took advantage of what was given to you. This the the player there that we made the move against open legs, a big long stick, you picked your triangle. Now it's you're you're trying to expose triangles that aren't there, or you're trying to like you're just the cones were in one place, so we're just gonna try to make this move, and there's no dissecting what's actually coming at you. It's just it's become a different game, faster.

SPEAKER_03 40:12

Yeah, I want to say this to you. I love it. We had Pavel Barber on not too long ago. Okay, the old highlight guy, yeah, right. And even he said, like, really to the camera, he's like, You should not watch this stuff. He said, I have another channel where I actually teach this other stuff. And he goes, Look, let's be honest, it's just not as sexy as a Michigan. He goes, But if you're serious, you want to know this. And and this is this is where I want to take this too, Scott. And that you gave a great explanation, all right. I remember you're talking about being on the road before, and it's like, you know, here's here's a side of the road I don't think people know. Like when you're obsessed with this game, which is not a bad thing, by the way. Like, we're all everyone here is obsessed, yeah. All right, we're fine. We're all in the game, we're all working in the game, all right. But you can be in an amazing destination, and I'm not saying you shouldn't get out every once in a while and look at what I'm focused on the game, I'm focused on watching film. I'm I'm and I want I want to be doing it right. So when it comes to hockey IQ, and and parents, I I'm gonna say this, you hear me say this all the time. This is not something you can necessarily put in your kid. You can encourage them, you can cultivate this. But when I see a kid watching film, I mean really watching it, not not just their goals, or sitting down with a coach and saying, Hey, what can I have done here? And seeing the full ice and seeing how the play develops. Invaluable stuff. All right, I've said this too on the show. It was uh my my my first year of bantam, second year of bantam, um had a coach volunteer to sit down with me with a whiteboard before every practice and really taught me the game, and to this date is one of the most important things I have ever done. He taught me the game outside of the flashy stuff, and I I became a really good player after that because I was gifted that, and he was just volunteering time on a whiteboard. I didn't have YouTube back then. Yeah, that's funny.

SPEAKER_01 42:06

It's funny though, it's funny too, too, when you talk about this. And Scott, maybe you can you can talk a little bit about, you know, some especially the higher level kids you work with, is how important it is because the kids um you know our players today, and he and and even at the NHL, right? They're watching videos so much and they can do so much more self-assessment. Like it doesn't always have to be the coach pointing anything out, it's just letting the kids watch themselves and saying, You tell me what you were doing there. Like, and and again, sometimes you'll you'll hear great things like, Oh, well, I thought this and I was gonna do that. I'm like, Oh, well, that like me as a coach, I'm like, Well, I love the fact he even thought that. Like, that was unbelievable. Like, it was the wrong play, but the right thought. Like, and I under so I think there's there's so much ways for our kids today to learn the game by self-assessment, and all the tools are there. I mean, shit, you got YouTube video from 15 years ago, still, right? So I think these kids, and that's so that's I think that's a that's a that's a a great thing, and it's a and it's a a really big problem, right? There's there's two aspects of this game because like there's there's three guys on that video, right? That have that, I'm sure they're getting those clips every now and then too. Like, how the hell do you let this guy do this? Like, like, so it's it's oh it goes both ways. The the the power of video and the power of self-explanation of of saying, well, where where is my skill set? What am I am I yes? I can do the Michigan, but I can't even chip the puck over the blue line. Like, like these are the kind of things that we look for. Um, you know, Pablo Barber mentioned it, you just mentioned it, we've had countless pros mention, you know, what the the pieces that go into a game that yes, it's always great to have those little those little snippets of things, but you know, fix fix your fix your fix the simple parts of your game first.

SPEAKER_04 43:48

Yeah, it's funny the the video is such a I I always I go back like I again money hockey's expensive, we know that it it's in and it's video with your your cell phone or a parent or whatever, not to show your your child that they scored and they they highlight real goal, it's just show them their shifts. You don't even have to say anything. You there's no questioning the coach, there's no questioning anything. There's no you're not timing ice time, it's not we're not using it for that. It's what do you see? I was told I I love I love video, you know. I'll give a shout-out in a second here, but I love video. I was told you're never as good and you're never as bad as you think you are. So you go watch video, and you're you kind of you know, the sure you guys have seen it, and you you kind of don't know if I really want to see this, and you're kind of starting to like, oh, that's not so bad. Or the games where you just you feel like you're on fire and you're untouchable, and you go back and it's like I've turned 15 pucks over and I missed checks and it, but somehow the puck. So again, you're never as good and never as bad. And again, I go back to the video part side. Uh it's actually so Tay Thompson is his dad, Brent Thompson is now coaching Hershey. So shout out to him. He was actually phenomenal. He sat down, it was to a point where I don't know how he managed to do it with no sleep but on the road in the East Coast League. He had me in Alaska, and every single game before the next game or whatever, he'd go in and I'd sit there, he'd have six or seven clips. And again, not all good, not all bad. It was he'd end it with certain things and just certain points, but it helped so much to understand what I was capable of, what I needed to work on. And he didn't have to say a whole lot. Like it was just it was just us there, and it was just a but we go back Lee where it was just his time, you know. He'd go home, we're we're on the road, he's doing the same same traffic. As we are, and you know, breakdown video for one player was my best, my best, I guess, professional year was there. So you start to go back down the line and on where and what, and you know, it lasted from when I was traded there to winning again the the championship in Alaska based on him wanting to do time, and um, you know, it's it's just one of those things that that something connected to watch it and to see uh still stands out to this day.

SPEAKER_03 45:53

You know what we should say too? Um, you're bringing up a great point, Scott. You're making me think about this, especially to the parents. And and this is not a shot, parents, it's just something you probably don't realize when you're on the ice, it is such a different view than what you're seeing on whatever TV or or or live barn or whatever you're watching on, right? And I've had parents say, like, how did they not see that? How do they not see that gap? Well, you know, because there's a kid six inches taller skating right next to them, which you can hear, and they panic a little, you know, like the the vision on the ice and the speed, especially when you get to the higher levels. Uh, if if you've never played, and I do not mean this is a bad thing, you do not understand how fast this thing is moving, and the gap that you might see, the player honestly might see that actually, this is one of those big separators of the greatest players see all this stuff, right? Or they anticipate all this stuff. So that's that's another reason why just letting them watch and discover can be a huge thing. Now, I was laughing a little bit, Scott, when you were when you were talking, Mike and Christian like this too. Uh, you know, I stopped playing a few years ago, but I was playing, you know, we're all hockey ends in adult league, and and these guys on my team keep sending clips in our team chat. I was like, I don't want to watch myself play at all. I'm like, especially probably because I because look, when I'm out there, I think I'm flying. It's like I thought I watched one of my adult league clips once, and I'm like, oh man, that is not as fast as I used to be. So I said, unless there's something you really want to teach me in this clip, I don't need to see it. And by the way, the clips are always just goals. Uh they're they're 80% great goals, 20% the penalty the ref didn't call. Yeah, none of it's good for me to watch, right? But um, I will say this too that uh coaches, not parents, coaches, there are a lot of tools now where you can watch video even at the youth level, will not take you a lot of time that you can put together some really great feedback, positive and negative, as Scott said. Don't ever just do negative uh for the kids you coach. Where with the access to video um and and the ability to kind of just record right on top of it, voiceovers. I mean, if you want to put the time in, like some of you don't have the time, and I completely appreciate that too. Uh, it has never been easier to do that. And I can say this too at the high levels, it is absolutely necessary to do this. Uh, at the younger levels, I encourage it if you can, because the room for growth below 12, I mean it's it's really big for everybody, but you can really teach these kids the game at that age, and they're sponges, they want to learn.

SPEAKER_00 48:30

Right. And it's just a great opportunity for coaches listening, Scott, to get some advice from you because you are coaching now. Um, are there some techniques you think that are really working with kids now? I mean, how do they skate, for example, without the puck? And you just let them be more creative. What kinds of things are you doing to help advance hockey IQ at a young age and to get kids really creative out there on the ice?

SPEAKER_04 48:58

You're yeah, I I think I think we try to allow them just to be themselves. Again, I think we go back to that, their their youth. Like they see something on TV and they want to try to relive that, right? And I I unfortunately part of that is they don't see the whole game. So instead of them chipping a puck out, they're seeing the highlight real goal. So I think it goes hand in hand where allow them to make mistakes. And this is where things get mixed up, at least in my my my opinion, is we're so quick to say no or to tell them that this is the way to do it, and then little robots. And if they don't make the mistakes, so like a gap control on the defensive side, gap control is is so hard to teach, and we're constantly trying to, you gotta do this, you gotta in order for them to actually work on it, is they have to be beat. And you as a coach have to be okay where it's not a shot to your ego. Like, my kid is the child is going to be fine. Let them get beat so that you can now they understand where and how to to maneuver instead of just hey, this is the way to do it. This is it's not the same. And I go back, sorry, Lee Lee. I want to go back real quickly, if it's okay, Christy, on the the speed factor. The parents on the video when they watch, and I try to encourage parents to go stand at the glass because the ones that are usually making this stuff up, and even at 10 and 12 years old, it's the same parents to say, Well, I don't know, there's my kid is so fast. Well, now picture the other 10 and 12 year olds that they're playing against at that glass level. You also now are seeing a little bit more of the realisticness of, oh wow, like you know, me, I I didn't see that player. You know, I watched a kid make a pass yesterday. I'm like, oh it's actually a really good pass. I didn't I didn't see it. But yeah, you know, everybody that that knows the game can go sit up in a press box and dissect an HL game, right? It looks pretty slow. It's we're adults, we've been around the game, you kind of notice where things are going. Go watch a youth game at the class level. I can almost guarantee that you're not gonna pick up what these kids are. Like they're still so gifted and so talented. Um, but yeah, I I the other piece, sorry, I'm jumping back again, Christy. I would say uh positive encouragement. I'd say just the confidence, allow them like as much as I know it's not a hockey IQ thing or uh we're again. I I try to instill just go have fun, like just we're there to teach again. I went back to that the whole cheerleader thing. Yeah, they're going to figure it out. If you're patting them on the back and not screaming and yelling, they're going to they they want to please you. No kid is out there that I'm gonna do what I want to do, and at least not for very long, like they're gonna eventually figure out because you're on a team sport, yeah. Right. So the pat on the back and the encouragement that there in itself will push them into areas on what they can and can't do and their their comfort and their you know just their overall skill set, right?

SPEAKER_00 51:26

So simple, and so many parents lose sight of that, right?

SPEAKER_04 51:29

Yeah, just again, like the there's certain rules out there. Like, I'm trying to learn. I I my my oldest plays soccer, and fortunately I have I know nothing about soccer. Hey, did you listen to the coach? Yeah, did you work hard? Yeah, like it's popsy's the same way, like you fist pump your kid because the coach might have blasted them, might not have. They they might have pat them on the back, they might not have. They don't need us to go in as a parent to you know, why didn't you do this or you should have done this? And again, as an adult, we know it. We the the the kid doesn't, yeah, right?

SPEAKER_03 51:58

Like they're they're 12, you know, 13. Scott, that is such a huge point. Like it's easy as an adult, I know all this stuff. Well, you might go to your kid and be like, the gap. And the kid goes, What's a gap? Like, they don't know what a gap that means, no, right? So, so you know, for for the especially uh the younger coaches, right? I guess it's for everybody, but like part of the teaching of coaching is is taking what you know, looking at who you're coaching and saying, Okay, where are they at with the understanding of this concept? All right, like again, I I I don't like to pick on this one, but like Wayne Gretzky did not succeed as a coach. And the greatest comment I ever heard is how is he supposed to teach people to see the game like he did? How is it how is he supposed to do that? It's like not possible.

SPEAKER_01 52:43

Well, yeah, and and and again, if anything, he should be coaching a bunch of six and seven-year-olds to say, hey, listen, this is this is because by the time you're you're you're 24 years old, it's like, well, I'm not there's nothing I can instill into you of this of all because you're now you're baked in. That's the person, right? I mean, but you could that that's why, like me and Scott, I love the fact that you're working with these younger kids at at the lower at the beginner levels, because that's where we need our best coaches. Yeah, our best people in the game need to be working with the players at five and six and seven years old. Because this is that that that muscle memory, that brain you know, IQ piece formulates there. It's so hard to take a 17-year-old and say, Well, I'm gonna teach this kid some hockey IQ. I'm like, it's too late. It's it's I mean, I think I mean there is there is ways to to tweak it and change it and fix, you know, fix as much as you can, but really where your investment has to happen is when the kid is five and six years old and forget about the stats and think about the game and say, like, hey, wow, that was that was the right play. Oh, that was the right decision. Oh, that was a great um you know, uh decision to to make in a in a you know in a tight spot. Like this is where we need to um you know tone down the wins and losses, tone down the scheduling and and upgrade, you know, who is working with our kids at that age.

SPEAKER_04 54:03

So Mike, that's that's it, so again, we go back, it's you have to get a buy-in from the parents, right? And the coach has to be willing to I say sacrifice, maybe not the right word, to sacrifice their own wins and losses. Like, don't go off of the actual win and loss column. Go off of your development, go off of what you're teaching these kids because again, like these kids are they are they're sponges and they want to learn. So if you're going in there and again, your team is okay to start the season and they've closed the gap, they may not win every game still by the end of the season. But if you go back on where they they're going to be good and great moving forward, they have a good experience, they've seen the development, they see the progress, you know, they're they're gonna be just fine. But the buy-in also has to come from the coach or sorry, the parents, where parents again, like you know, power play and penalty kill, and they're they're 10, they're 11, like they don't need that, they need to understand everything else, they gotta go through the process in order to get better. But it's you got to get the buy-in.

SPEAKER_03 54:56

But you're yeah, yeah, I I love what you're saying. I remember a few years ago I was coaching a 10 UAA team, and the kids were great, they worked so hard. But here's the deal we just did not have the scoring to really compete at the level we wanted to compete at. Now, these kids uh they overperformed, they made the higher level playoffs, um, you know, didn't didn't win anything. But I remember the parents were frustrated at one point, and so was the coaching staff a little bit. And I remember saying, like, we're doing a great job. We're doing fine because the the squirts that we're coaching today are gonna be great Pee-wees tomorrow. Yeah, and that is exactly what happened when they kind of graduated. That team, those kids on that team are succeeding now where they're at, and they've they've had winning seasons. Truth is, not every season you coach is gonna be winning. Most of them are not gonna be a winning season. Talked about this earlier, all right. But I love that thought for them of like we're we're the kids we're coaching today are gonna be pee-wee's tomorrow, and those peewees tomorrow are gonna be banned if we still use that language. But that you're you're you're coaching them now, and I'm all about being present, but you're also coaching who they're going to be. That's the that's development, that's the whole definition of it.

SPEAKER_04 56:07

But that's in our industry right now, and like maybe you guys all can kind of speak on it. We use the word development a lot, yeah. And we have the super teams, as we touched earlier, where they're really, really good hockey players, but you have the best of the best. The development is hard to come by because you're the best of the best. They may be bigger and stronger, they may just be faster, they whatever the case is. And I I get excited, and I can tell Lee, obviously yourself, where when you see these kids that have, again, I used adversity, they've gone, they've gone through competing with players that may have been a little bit just had a little bit of an edge, but they competed and tried and worked. So you've instilled something in there where when they go into their PB level from squirt, they're there. Like they're they're they're everything they've learned, they've they've developed, they've actually gotten better, they've actually learned, they've they've gotten things again. I I go back where we use it so often the development piece where they we we have to actually get rid of our I say ego, and again, maybe it's not the right word on the coaching side, especially where wins and losses don't matter. Develop the players because realistically, you can't take your team, no matter how good your team is, you can't take them all and progress into the NHL as a as a full team. It's gonna be individuals and it's gonna be so why not give every single player on your team the best chance possible to be that individual, right? You're only as good as your weakest link. So if your weakest link is getting better, you've done a great job. It is if you're sitting your weakest link just because of the city, we need an extra win, or when we're talking, you know, game 22 rather than the finals, then what do we do as a coach? Like, that's a whole other like let's let's be real and actually develop everybody, close the gap, and give every single player the best opportunity as possible.

SPEAKER_03 57:41

Scott, I I always say this to coach. When I coach coaches, I say there's a lot of different ways to win, and you got to redefine winning, like winning the game or winning the championship, that's one form of winning, but there's a lot of ways to win as a coach. All right, there's a lot of ways to win as a team, and I think if you're only going in, and I'll speak to those like super teams and high-level teams, uh, you know, quote unquote high-level teams. Uh, if your only goal is to win the championship, I just think we're failing. Even if even if you're a great team, like like the wins for me, and and this is as I've gotten older, I don't care what level I'm coaching. I don't like I I that part of my ego is gone, right? Like, I don't need to be coaching in the NHL anymore or anything like that. I will coach the kids in front of me, and the win for me is they're getting better. And I take a lot of pride in that. All right, and I think that that's how we all have to approach it as parents. All right, I'm not saying don't be competitive, I'm not saying don't get on the absolute best team you can be on. That's not that's that's not what I'm talking about. There's a lot of different ways to win, and I and look, look, not to get magical here, but when you see a kid get it, whatever you're teaching, that's the greatest thing in the that's the greatest thing in the world.

SPEAKER_01 58:54

Well, this this is what this is what makes me laugh when I watch, you know, all the all these skills guys, like all the skills people that work with all these kids. And nobody ever shows like that they're working with anybody that has to learn how to play hockey. It's all players that all are really, really good at hockey already. Like it's like it's all these players that can do all these things. I'm like, okay, yes, okay, great. Fine-tune the kids that are good. Show me you could teach somebody how to play the game that doesn't know right now. Like, you know, it's like all these like quote unquote super teams. Yes, great. You can manage a bunch of people. But but the fact is you didn't really develop those kids. You didn't really, you know, just you're a great recruiter. Like being a great recruiter and a great coach are completely two different things. And the and you know, and I think that's what we all get clouded with, is like the NHL, you have to win. The all the end of the day, the second place team in the NHL, the coaches get fired. It's a job. Like you can develop players all you want, you could develop the the relationships all you want. At the end of the day, you have to win. At 10 years old, you don't have to win. You shouldn't have to win. Like you should you should the win, like your to your point, Scott, Lee, Christy, right? Is the win is I just developed another kid that's gonna play for another year. And I think that's and it we and again, I don't think that's all coaches' fault, by the way.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:12

No, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:13

I don't think that's parents' faults. I think it's I think it's I think it's the world we're living in now. But if you can find the right people to help you manage that piece, then you then you then you you know you've captured you know lightning in a bottle. If you could find those parents that the Scott talked about, the buy-in people, the people that say, Hey, I'm gonna take this guy, he's gonna work with my daughter, he's gonna work with the other 12 daughters, and guess what? They're all gonna get this great experience. That's that is like the unicorn of Utah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:41

I'm I'm laughing. You know, it was a mother on my son's team last year. I think we'll all get a good laugh out of this. And I remember she said, Um, great per great, wonderful person. And I'll tell you this too. Her son is the bet was the best player on the team. I I want to actually set this up. I remember she came up to me because I love talking, or she knows what I do, and she goes, Yeah, I don't get it. I mean, it's like why everybody's so in like it's just a hobby, and people are like, Oh, but I'm like, I mean, she's not wrong. It is it is at this point, like, yes, we're intense, yes, we are dedicated, yes, yes, it's a little more than just a side thing. But at the end of the day, I'm like, you're she's not wrong completely.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:25

And it really is people that it really sucks, though. The people that think that way have the best kids. I hate those people. Like, that's like the thing, you get the best.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:35

Her son put up a hundred points this year, and she's walking around going, it's just a hobby. What do you do? The thing is, is look, look, I again, look, I will be the first to say, yes, it's a little, it's a little more than that. I'm not I'm not gonna say it's not, okay. There's a lot of stuff that goes into hockey, but at the end of the day, what she's saying is this is not life, this is not the be-all end all of life. They're in school, they're growing up, you know. This is it's it's something that they do, extracurricular. Like that's great. I love that. Yeah, right. And and here's the other thing, too. Like we said it throughout the episode. Look, I love I am in love with hockey. The only thing I love more than hockey is my family and and my podcast crew because we're here right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:17

Right. And let's let's not forget, too, you know, and I see this with my own kids. Hockey, okay, they developed their skills, they ended up being really good hockey players, but they also learned so many great life lessons that they use to this day in their jobs. My daughter's now in law school, and I see it all the time. The discipline, the time management, the persistence, the never getting up, all those skills. And Scott, I bet you you still use whatever hockey taught you to this very day.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:52

Oh, 100%. We like again, I the the the values, the way that you handle yourself throughout the game is is essentially how you are as a person. If you're if you're a good person and you're doing things the right way and you surround yourself by good people, which there's there are tons of good people in the hockey world and community. It's such a small community. Um it does. It it evolves into your personal life after hockey, after the game is done. Whether it be a men's league or a beer league or whatever you uh women's league. Um, again, my my favorite are still talking to kids that I coached. I think one of the first years I coached, they're all now in university or about to graduate university, where these kids, my my win was they took their hockey bag and didn't leave it at home. They took their hockey bag to play, pick up hockey at at school, right? The dropout rate from hockey, as we know, is is awful when they get older, and whether it's timing, whatever. So, yeah, my my way of of living is definitely because of because of the upbringing through the sport itself, 100%. And again, that's something that I'm very proud of and passionate about. And um the the the left the lessons you get from it without even realizing I didn't know as a kid walking through, and I'm sure you guys are the same. Like, we didn't know what we were learning. Hey, be on time, be there an hour before, and you know, I'd hate to be late for for a meeting now. I I I just it it I don't know if there's something like it gives me hitters, you know. Exactly. Yeah, you're gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:10

And I think parents don't lose sight of that, you know. Even if you're in a losing season, your kids are winning. Well, trust us.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:19

I'm gonna shout your kids out, Christy. Both both your kids are very successful. But like I love that you brought up so yeah, because it's like, oh, you thought playing D1 NCAA was hard. Why don't you go try and become a lawyer? It says a lot about you, and and again, your family never lost sight of that. But again, Christy, actually, I'm gonna ask you a question real quick, right? As a mother, right? Your kids are are not playing hockey, like in terms of just for fun, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:47

Like Joey does it bear once once in a while, and yeah, Sophia'll pick up a stick just to keep her skills up, but you know, law school's tough 24-7. That's my point.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:56

Your daughter's in law school at school, your son has a very, very great job in in New England, right? Tell me, as a mother who has gone through the journey and spent all that money and all that time, who your kids didn't make it, quote unquote. Like, how proud are you of your kids for what they're doing now?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:14

So proud. And we're still hockey, still very much a part of our lives, you know, obviously, through what I do, and we talk about it all the time. And uh, you know, we're on the uh FaceTime meeting each other during the playoffs, of course. And um, yeah, I am I don't have one regret that they're not technically hockey players anymore. It's not who they are, it's what they did, but it helped them become who they are, right? Which is just you have so much amazing, yeah. Yeah, so parents, just remember this is going to pay in dividends down the road, what your kids are learning now.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:56

Yeah, and I I have been I will always say thank you to Mike and you, Christy, because I've been a great beneficiary of this discussion for six years. Yeah, Scott, we this conversation's flying by. I do have one more question for you because we're getting to overtime here. Um, I did want to mention, you know, look, we didn't talk about it. You're a champion, you're a playoff MVP. Uh, you've done a lot in the game, but today you're you're coaching girls' youth hockey, right? Tell us about that experience. Tell us about maybe a little bit about what's different, kind of culminating the whole episode about coaching now versus when you grew up. Uh, and you know, what what are the things that you you find are the struggles, but also the the wonderful side of coaching today?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:36

I'll start with the the yeah, it's uh loaded. I laugh. Uh the coaching again, I I absolutely love it. I I joke, I I say if I would have coached kids and was able to dissect and break things down for them, because again, you have to break them down for the the skill level, I wouldn't be that much of a better player. You know, I I just the way you're able to think, the way you're able to do things, if you can kind of post in on that. Um the the girl side, I absolutely love it. Um, I coached boys for a few years there. That's what right when I stopped playing, I kind of jumped right into it. Um, the boys were good. They're they're I just I felt like it was at least here and maybe up until the last couple years, it's it's getting a lot better. I felt the girls is an underserved market. Um, I felt that they like again. I have I have two daughters myself. One is just starting to play. And even with the amount of work I do with the girls, she kind of looked at she didn't want to play hockey, and she realized that oh. Like there's there's girls that only do this. Like sure I'll try and fall in love with the game. So again, I just the the girl side, the girl piece. I again I I absolutely love it. Um it's come such a long way on the way that it's evolved. And um I'm actually again, again, something I'm I'm proud about. Like it's it's something to be part of that they just continuously to break barriers and to continue continuously, sorry, just to to do the I guess something that nobody really thought they'd be able to do. Like it's you know, the the long gone is is the the boys get ice, the the boys get this, and the you know, they're quite like it's the girls are right on par. And to be part of that is something that is is so cool to see them get what they're supposed to get, like get what they deserve. And um the hockey IQ there, the hockey skill set, they're hockey players. You know, you take the girl and boy piece apart, and there are some really, really, really good hockey players that are playing on the female side, and you know, it's something to watch out for for sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:25

I I love it, man. And and you know, one of the things we always say is again, especially with Haley, our co-host on uh our girls play hockey, is you know, one of the fun parts of girls hockey is every time they take the ice, they're they're trailblazing, and it's so fun to be a part of that, right? To help grow the game. And like you said, we're we're definitely every day heading towards that. These are just hockey players, isn't it? These are athletes, right? Um, and that's that's better for the game, period, right? No matter no matter how you look at. So that's been good, guys. Again, we're up on time, but Mike and Christy, I definitely want to say anything before we close this out. This could go for another hour.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:00

Oh, it easily could go for another hour. Um, Scott, thank you so much for joining us tonight and and sharing so much. Uh, what an incredible story you have. And it's so comforting knowing that you're still involved in hockey and shifting it the right direction.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:17

Well, thank you guys very much. This was this was super, super cool. So, thank you again very much for for having me on and just having conversations. It's things that I I don't normally get a chance to talk to too much about out loud and to be out there and and be able to have some like-minded views is is mine for sure. Refreshing this is not refreshing.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:39

I mean, like at least we said at the beginning, sometimes the you know, the the the people that really, really need to hear these messages and and and have uh you know the ability to listen to people like you are really the people who just can't get on you know these type of shows and and listen to this type of platform. Uh, but we're hoping by you know the audience we have that they go out there and just little like, hey, could if I could take this one little clip of Scott talking about this and share it with that that mom that's down at the end of the bench on the other side screaming over the glass, like maybe, maybe I can make one person's life a little different, and then uh, you know, we're all happier people in the rank.

unknown 1:10:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:18

Yeah, I just wrote down uh share this with your toxic hockey parents. You might be in a fight if you do, but uh no, you know, Mike, on that point too, and Christy, one of the coolest parts of this show, uh, and Scott, we were talking about this in the pre-show a little bit, is we have a global audience of hockey people that love these messages. And that was the goal from the start was to find that audience. And actually, that audience found us. Um, and it's one of the reasons we're so successful. The other reason is by having fantastic guests like you, Scott. So thank you. Thank you so much for joining us today.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:51

No, thank you guys very much. This was awesome. It was.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:54

And for the audience, you do have a life, you have to get back to real life now. A lot of different ways to contact the show. Team at our kidsplayhockey.com if you want to email us. Again, we do not have to read it on the air if you just want to contact us there. Also, accompanying every episode, there's a link in the description. If you click on that, you can text us, you can leave us a voice message, uh, we can contact you back. But obviously, audience, uh, your your thoughts, what you want us to talk about, what you want to discuss, uh, we love that. That's what helps to drive the show, in addition to amazing guests like Scott Howley. So that's gonna do it for this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. We'll see you next time. Enjoy your hockey, enjoy your day. Take care, everybody. We hope you enjoyed this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or our website, our kidsplayhockey.com. Also, make sure to check out our children's book, When Hockey Stops, at When Hockey Stops.com. It's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much for listening to this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey, and we'll see you on the next episode.