How to Make Youth Hockey Tryouts Fairer with Gabe Malinski of Team Genius

SPEAKER_01 1:15

This episode is powered by NHL Sensorina. Hello, hockey friends and families around the world, and welcome back to our kids play hockey. Another great episode for you today. I'm Leah Lias, and I'm joined by Christy Cashiano Burns. Mike Benelli is on assignment in Norway today. He's on his way to Stavanger, Norway. I'm gonna guess it's five hours ahead, so it's probably like way past lunchtime over there. Anyway, it's Christy and I here today, and we've got an episode today that's centered around one of the hottest topics in youth hockey. But because we've talked about it before, we're gonna approach it from a very different angle. Because depending on when you're listening, your tryouts may be over, they may be right around the corner, or you may be waiting to hear where your kid landed, right? No matter where you're at on that process, if you've been around youth hockey long enough, you've probably heard things like the teams were already picked, or my kid never had a chance, or the evaluations weren't fair. We've heard all of those. The reality is tryouts can be one of the most emotional times of the year for the players, for the parents, for the coaches too, for the organizations. Temperatures go up, they go down. So today's guest spends his days helping youth hockey associations build smarter, more objective evaluation processes and more transparent communication with the families. Just saying that out loud almost makes you go, about time. He's part of a group called Team Genius. It's a platform used by hockey organizations across North America to improve tryouts, player evals, and long-term player development. Something we all want, right? But today's conversation, again, it's not about the technology, it's about creating a youth hockey experience that players, coaches, and parents and organizations can trust. So please join me in welcoming Gabe Malinsky to our show today. Gabe, welcome to our kids play hockey.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Yeah, thanks for having me. Like you said, it's a polarizing topic, and some call me crazy for being a part of it every day. But uh really happy to be just having this conversation. Hopefully, people can get some good stuff from our kids.

SPEAKER_04 3:22

Oh, no, no. No one on this show is crazy. Gabe, thank you so much. I'm so excited that you're here with what a wealth of knowledge. Because, you know, Lee talked about it. Well, everybody listening knows tryouts can be such a trying time for parents. Your kid's stomachs and knots, you're pacing, wait for waiting for the list to come out. Did my kid make this team that he wants more than anything to make? And you, now lucky for us, you've watched countless hockey tryouts and evaluations. So you're a wealth of knowledge. So, our first question as we get into it, what do you think is the biggest mistake that USC associations making when it comes to tryouts?

SPEAKER_00 4:05

Oh, what a great first question.

SPEAKER_03 4:07

You know, we're gonna hardly here we go.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

That's why people listen. Yeah. Well, I think one of the biggest things that things that we've seen across the last 10 years of helping associations with just tryouts, in-season evaluations, they try to find one system that works and not adjust it year after year. They think they have the magic recipe to do an evaluation. And many times that first year that a trial coordinator comes in, is put in charge of trials, they try to gather too much information and they forget the purpose that they're running those trials. The purpose of triouts is to form teams. Ideally, you can justify uh team placements afterwards. You can give some feedback if parents are asking that, uh asking for that feedback. But simplifying the process is your way to make sure that you don't overdo it, you don't overwhelm the coaches, you don't lose track of the important part of triouts, forming teams. So just simplify the process. That that's I think one of the biggest things that we've seen for sure is trying to capture five, ten pieces of criteria, like that's not realistic in an hour-long trial. All right, okay.

SPEAKER_04 5:13

Let's break that down. What should be the top five? And what's the simple way to process all of this?

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Well, it it varies by age group. I'm not gonna pretend like there's one set of criteria that's best. At the younger age groups, sometimes it's just one or two criteria that you want to capture. Skating, obviously, that's gonna be number one for those younger kids. If you can skate well, you're gonna be able to skate circles around the other kids. You're gonna be able to get up the ice with the puck, and you're gonna be able to do some good things for your team. So skating is for sure that top criteria across any of the 31 million scores that we've captured in the app. Uh, I would say at the older age groups, you maybe want to break down skating into speed, into backward skating, so you can ensure that your defenders can keep up with some of those top forwards. Uh, and one thing that we always tell organizations when we're working with them too is when you are looking at setting up a trial process, you need to look at the numbers that you have. If you're a smaller organization, you don't need as many criteria because you don't need as much differentiation. But if you do have 100 or 200 kids that are gonna be showing up to that tryout, you're gonna have more overlapping scores if you have fewer criteria or fewer days. So deciding how many criteria often depends on the amount of players that you have trying out.

SPEAKER_04 6:31

All right. So that's really good formula to follow. So base your tryouts on your numbers, how big is your tryout, how many kids are showing up, and keep it simple, you know, especially at the younger ages. Skating is key. Very helpful.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

You know, I think too, Gabe, when we we did an episode not that long ago where we broke down benchmarks for each age group, right? And and they were somewhat broad, but the idea is okay, by the end of 10U, by the end of 12U, uh, or coming into 10U and 12U, this is what you should be able to do, maybe not be able to do. Um, and from a coaching standpoint, this is what should be taught and not be taught. And I think what happens a lot of times is everyone's coming into tryout thinking, I gotta make the top team. And I think that uh if I may add to this, that's one of the mistakes that people make in a tryout is if I don't make that top team, my life is over.

SPEAKER_03 7:25

Right.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

And when I when because I get we get asked about this all the time, I always say, well, who's coaching what team? Who's the coaches? What what what coach does your kid get along with the best? Not just get along, but like who teaches your kid the best, right? Where are your kids? Where is your kid at with these benchmarks? Right, and I've seen it before where again we'll use the younger ages, like 12 year or 10 years. Kid comes in, unbelievable shot, just got a heavy, awesome, super shot. Kid can't skate. And it's like kid needs to work on their skating. That that is really what, and you know what? Our our second team has a great skating coach. Well, I need to be on the top team, and it's like, man, we are missing the point. And I I remember I remember saying, if you can't get to the puck, you're not gonna have that big shot. So it doesn't matter. That's true. So the perspective on tryouts and the FOMO that is created by not getting to the top. I'm not gonna tell the parents listening, look, you shouldn't be disappointed, or your kids shouldn't be disappointed if they don't make the top team. I think that's part of the process and part of the growth as a human being is making and not making the team you want to. But I also think part of that process has to be, you know, you got a really great coach this year. You got a coach that's really gonna teach you, you're gonna be a top player on this team, you're gonna get the ice time. We need to look at things like that as well when we do a tryout. So, with that train of thought, that's just my thoughts. Gabe, what is something that you've noticed when somebody walks away and goes, man, that was a great tryout, right? What goes right? It's the opposite question. We talked about the things we miss. What makes a fantastic tryout that a parent's gonna walk away going, that was a great eval?

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Yeah, well, when we're talking with these board members, that's typically who we're working with to set up the tryout process for an organization. We try to remind them of their responsibility. And their biggest responsibility, number one, is to form the teams. But if they want to give an exceptional process to their coaches, to their players, to their parents, you need to remember each of the different stakeholders and what you're trying to do for them. For those evaluators, you want to give them a process that is simple, that is efficient for them, that allows them to keep their eyes up on the ice as they're doing the evaluations and not have them concerned about missing a player or potentially just not scoring very accurately. So making sure you have an efficient process for your coaches. For the players, you're trying to give them a fair chance at making that team. Right. So making sure it's fair, having whether it's third-party evaluators or trying to take the bias out of the evaluations. Uh, and for the parents, be transparent about what you're doing. Like tell them that you're using an app or that you are gonna be giving feedback to those that request it or that you're not. And no matter what your process entails, just keeping those in mind, those people in mind, and afterwards asking for feedback and taking that feedback and making it actionable, doing something about it the following year to make it even better.

SPEAKER_01 10:19

Yeah, I'll I'll say real quick too. Just I love that you bring up bias and things like that. Sorry, Christy. I want to say this that I think the key that you just said there is that communication. And I don't think enough organizations have open communication. The truth is this, and it's actually a guarantee. Someone's gonna be upset after an eval. Someone's gonna be upset. And I think that that that is actually less people than people that are content or will accept the results. And a lot of decisions are made on the two or three parents that are gonna lose their mind if that kid doesn't make the trial. And we can't base our communication on, oh, I don't want to deal with that. I think the more you communicate with parents, the more transparent you are with certain aspects, doesn't have to be everything, the easier you're gonna have with the fallout after an eval. Like, no, we told you how we were evaluating. All right. And and and I do believe, this is me personally, that explanations are a good thing. I think it's okay for evaluators and coaches to have uncomfortable conversations with kids and parents about why they did or did not make a team. And I think that that conversation, and Christy, I I know you'll have thoughts on this too. The conversation, the uncomfortable, uncomfortable conversation of listen, you didn't make the team. I think you need to work on your skating. This is what I saw that made me think that. That conversation sets that kid on a path, even if they're irate of you know what, coach, the coach said I need to work on this. Now they're focused on what they need to work on. This is assuming the evaluator knows what they're talking about, too. I should say that.

SPEAKER_02 11:50

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

They're not making an excuse here. But man, I'd rather a kid be a little angry at me and say, I need to work on my skating than the whole season, I should have been on the double A team. You know, that's why that communication piece is invaluable.

SPEAKER_04 12:04

Right. And, you know, I think there's a way they can also let a kid down easy. Okay, you didn't make this team because you not need to work on your skating. If you get a little faster, you know, it's gonna and explain to them in detail what it is that they can do better rather than okay, you didn't make the team move on. That is that is tough. And I think here's an opportunity where kids can really learn and grow and not have that better feeling that but just kind of relay that to them in a positive way can be so helpful. It can be a really important growth experience for kids rather than just say, okay, you didn't make the team move on. We're done with you. But I think that that explanation is, oh, don't you think so? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

Yeah, I mean, I think it would be naive to sit here and pretend like every organization should be giving feedback or have the data on their players. Some organizations they they don't need to because they they're just looking for those top 20 players to fill a roster. And uh, so I think there's a time and place for each. But for the average, and I I come from Minnesota, the Minnesota Hockey System, you know, it's a community-based organization. I played for Lakeville Hockey Association growing up. And when we would not make that, I was kind of an A B bubble player. And those times that I didn't make the team, I asked for the feedback and they didn't have it. They didn't have the data. Yeah, we weren't we weren't pushing back to be rude. We just wanted to know what I should be working on in the summer. Yeah because I wanted to make that team the following year. So now to be able to help organizations give that feedback, I think is super awesome and helps me feel like I'm giving back. But even when you go out to a club program, right? East Coast, West Coast, wherever it is, if it's not city-based, yeah, you maybe don't have that responsibility to your community. But if you want to help your players get better and you want to add and provide more value to the players and attract the talent, you want to have the data to give feedback, even to those kids that made the team. Like, great, you made this team, but I still want you to work on these two or three things. That's the last piece I want to say there too is as I mentioned earlier, people try to collect all this data at a tryout. But I think the better place to get that data is actually throughout the season from the coaches. Give them a way to do the in-season evaluations, have a template, have those benchmarks that you mentioned, Lee, and have the coaches check in with those players once or twice a year to make sure they're progressing as they should be.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Yeah, I love that you're bringing this up because in in other tryout episodes we've had, we talk about how you know, look, the whole regular season, not necessarily a tryout, but like you know, we're watching the we're watching you the whole season. Like, we know where your ability is at. Like it is insanely rare. I'm gonna say, and it really is that a kid that has been at one level the whole year is gonna show up to a tryout and be a completely different, elevated player. I'm not saying impossible, but rare. Right? A lot of that depends when the tryouts are, right? So that process throughout the season, it is, in my opinion, and it's work, but it's the responsibility of the coaching staff to give that feedback. Like one of the things I want to do with the youth team, I'm gonna be coaching this year, is I'm not gonna call it a report card process, but but some sort of, hey, here's where you were, here's where you're at, here's where I'd like you to be, right? For those players. I always say this too in business, not much less hockey. If you don't know where you're going, how are you going to get there? Right? It it's very powerful for a young kid, and and there's a responsibility, by the way, to be very honest with the kids' coaches. Just I have to say that because you can't just throw stuff out at them, but just say, hey, I'd like to see your skating get to this point in a few weeks, right? And what you got to be careful with is people, I'll get more ice time if I do that. Whoa, whoa, whoa. That that's not what I'm talking about. We're trying to develop you as a hockey player, right? First off, in youth hockey, you should be getting ice time no matter what, right? Talking the younger ages. But I love that you brought that up. Look, I I just did a uh a high-level training camp for a national team, all right. And we did a uh an evaluation process that dealt with more basics than people would think, you know, skating, passing, hockey IQ. And we base these evaluations on the time that we see, and we really look at each player. The key though, and and this is the positive, is after the the two-day training camp, um, we did four hours straight of one-on-one sit-down uh evaluations with players. Like, here's what we saw, here's what we like, do you have any questions? Uh, we showed them ways they could improve on the aspects that we wanted to improve on. And not all the feedback, obviously, was positive, right? Like I'd say most players got here's what I'd like you to work on. The the result of that meeting was incredibly positive. All right, and again, not every player heard what they wanted to hear. Sure. All right, but I've got nothing but, hey, I really appreciate this. No one's ever told me this. And I'm gonna really take it upon myself this season to work on these things because I want to make your team in the future, right? They're not comfortable conversation. It's never easy to look somebody in the eye and say, hey, listen, I think your compete level is too low. You've got some great skating ability. I'm giving you a different example, but I didn't think you hunted the puck down when you needed to. We got to find ways to work on that. You know what they did? They said, Well, how do I work on that? That's a phenomenal question. Let's talk about that. That's the growth mindset.

SPEAKER_04 17:29

Right. That's the growth mindset. Um, and it is a tough conversation. Let's be honest here.

SPEAKER_03 17:34

It's not, it's not easy to hear, especially when you're thinking that you're skinny level and is in a in a dynamite position, and then you're an evaluator objectively tells you.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

Christy, I've never walked into one of those conversations going, oh, I can't wait to tell this kid they stuck in the fucking. Like it's never happened in my life where I'm not sure. It's hard to hear. It's hard to, you know, share. That's my job. That's my job is to help them get better. If if you're not feeling that, you're not going to get better. Adversely, if you're telling a kid how great they are all the time. Yeah. We had we had kids at training camp that were phenomenal. And I said, look, you got really high scores across the board. And then I might say, What do you think you need to work on? Right. And and yeah, anyway, those conversations are key.

SPEAKER_04 18:16

And I think that's important for parents too, to jump in there too, to help support the idea of this is honest feedback. You need this. If you're serious about this, if you want to get better, you need to absorb it, think about it, and figure out ways that you could improve. That's why that parent support is so critical.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

I'll tell you both.

SPEAKER_04 18:39

Instead of like bashing the oh, they don't know what they're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

They're the fast. On that note, Christy, so when I'm dealing with youth athletes um specifically, I don't mind their parents sitting in on that feedback because I'll tell you why. Because what I'm looking for is, and I'll say it positively 90% of parents, I'll see them looking at their kid, nodding. Oh, you know, it's just good feedback, right? Yeah. But there's always that minute the like, well, you obviously didn't see them skate because that's not my kid. And I just go, yeah, noted. Okay. This parent does not take feedback alone. Yeah. All right.

SPEAKER_03 19:11

Duly note it.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

It's tripping over the cones out there, but they're a great skater. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:17

Right. Gabe, I wanted to go back to something that you said a few minutes ago about evaluators. Um, you said it's really important to make it easy for them. Are teams messing up there? Are they making it too complicated for the evaluator?

SPEAKER_00 19:33

Yeah. I mean, sometimes it's too many criteria. Sometimes it's just not being on the same page on even something as simple as like we're scaling on a score, uh, we're scoring on a scale of zero to five. Is five the best or is one the best? Like, even there's some miscommunication like that that then causes a kid to make the wrong team or at least cause confusion internally. So we've seen a lot of different nightmare scenarios and communication with those evaluators is just like.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

I got ones across the board. I got ones across the board. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 20:05

Isn't that something? So even just the simple this is what one means, this is what five means.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

They got messed up there, really. Yeah, something else I'll bring up.

SPEAKER_03 20:15

That would be disastrous.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

Yeah. It's it's tough to hear about because we know how important it is for the programs, whether it's just growth of a sport, we all love the sport of hockey. We want to see it grow. Sure. And that's not gonna help participation if we're not having efficient tryout processes. The tryout is like the that's the first impression from a lot of these kids, a lot of these parents. So you want to give them a good experience. And the thing I was gonna mention is here in Minnesota, at least, and I know this is up in Canada, some of the East Coast programs too, after the first day of tryouts, usually it's a skill day, they will then split up into like group one, group two, with the top kids being in that group one, lower kids being in group two. Some organizations that are big enough have group three, four, five, you name it. Uh, we've seen it in in the systems, but uh they will forget to tell the evaluators whether or not they are scoring that kid based on how they are compared to the whole age group or just that specific group. So all of a sudden, a kid in that last group, let's say the weaker group, they are getting a five, and then they put that into an Excel spreadsheet, and that then makes that kid look better than a kid who got a three in the top group. So you need to have you need to do a lot of planning, and it's not easy to make all these decisions, but pre preparation, just like the players need to be doing, is just as important for the board members.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

These are fantastic points. Good lesson. Yeah, like when I do uh if I'm running an eval, I always put a rubric on everything of not just hey, five is good and one is not, you know, one needs improvement, but I actually will describe like this, these are the characteristics of a five. It's not just five top level, it's proficient mastery, you know. And I by the way, we don't give out a lot of fives, right? But like, but like I if you're giving this kid a five, this is what that means, right? Um, and I love that you brought up the groups because we do that sometimes as well, and you've got to be specific of top player in group B.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

And then, and then maybe maybe even gave like a recommendation, like looking to move to group A next year, right? Like that that gives you kind of a clear understanding of like not in group A, right? Um, and and aspects like that. I think also, too, when it comes to evaluators, good communication from the uh coaches watching to the the evaluators on the ice, also, right? The coaches on the ice, I meant to say coaches on the ice because they're watching too. One of the the pieces of communication kind of continuing to round this episode out, is I don't just let my coaches go on the ice in an evaluation and do whatever they want. I have a meeting before, and I say, look, these are the skill sets that we're gonna be essentially grading on. And I need to create drills that are gonna allow us to see that uh happen on the ice. Uh and again, just going back to the eval I just did, believe it or not, Mike Benelli, our other co host, was one of the coaches that I had on the ice. And we had that conversation of hey, look, these are the things that I'm looking for. And he came up with a fantastic plan, communicated the plan to me. And I know within each drill, okay, when they do this at this action, that's when I'm going to be grading this on my sheet. Okay. Um, or or this result or this uh lack of a result in a drill will help me see that. That has to happen. I don't know how a coach can be in the gantry watching an evaluation, not knowing what drills are about to happen, and just going, okay, well, I'm gonna evaluate skating on this drill when it's a passing drill. It's like I've seen this happen. Right? That that that communication has to be there adversely, goaltending, right? I had a really great goaltending coach come out to this eval, one of the top in the area. What are you looking for? I'm evaluating these five things. He goes, Gotcha, say no more. He goes, I'll keep an eye on them, too. There's only there's only five goaltenders, and we had a great conversation and evaluated them together. That's how these things should run. It's a little extra work from a volunteer level, okay? But it's it's essential. And I think a lot of times people show up to these evals and it's all right, they're gonna be watching up there. Got this coach doing the drills. Uh, you guys just write out who you want.

SPEAKER_02 24:25

Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

Right? It's like we're failing the kids if we do that. You said it perfectly. Perfectly. It's a first impression for your organization.

SPEAKER_02 24:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

Right. And you know how we always say you only get one chance to make a first impression in hockey. You actually get to do it every single year. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Important to remember that.

SPEAKER_04 24:41

I've got another big question for you. So every parent wants tryouts to be objective, no bias. Is it really possible to think that we can remove bias from tryouts? Is that even a reality?

SPEAKER_00 24:58

You know, uh, one of the trends we're actually seeing in hockey, hockey tends to follow somewhere between five and ten years behind football, for example, some of the bigger sports with trends. But one of the big trends lately is combined data. And so at tryouts, we're seeing organizations start to capture timed drills with timing gates, no stopwatches because nobody trusts stopwatches, especially not parents. Uh yeah, I mean, Lee, you mentioned like in those post-tryout meetings, if you have them, having not just a scale of zero to five, how good is this kid on at skating, but this kid did a blue line to blue line time of this and it ranked this in their age group. That's a quantitative objective metric that you can show them. There's no bias here. There's no bias. No, no, that's a great point. It's like that's their score. That's their score. It is. That's their score. You can do the same thing for shot speed or some other things like shooting accuracy with the shooter tutors and all that fun stuff. But at the end of the day, the hard part about hockey is it's such a skill-based sport. I mean, you can't even you can be the fastest player in the league. You can be have the best shot, but if you can't execute in the game, you can't get that right angle to get that shot off, or you can't take that puck and move it in the right ways to get it up ice or find your teammate that's open. Hockey IQ is one of those that are so underestimated. And and you can't, that's not uh an objective metric. There's almost no way to some organizations are trying to do that, right? Some of the AI systems out there, uh, in stat and whatever else it might be, you can look and lean on some of that data, but at the end of the day, you need those expert evaluators. And the only way to truly take out the bias, in my opinion, is to find either third-party evaluators who are have nothing to do with your organization, don't know any of the kids, or us growing up in Lakeville Hockey Association, we had the neighboring organization. Their coaches would trade with our organization, and we would our coaches would score their kids, their coaches would score our kids, and that's one way that we see people do it without actually needing to financially invest in in that process.

SPEAKER_04 27:13

Yeah, that seems a lot more feasible.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

Yes, it's it's feasible, and it's like depending on who you are listening to this, that idea terrifies you or excites you. Yeah. But the the truth is this if you we I we've talked about this too, Gabe. You wanted a real unbiased evaluation. Not only would you have independent evaluators who are not involved with the organization, every kid would be in the same color jersey or similar color jersey with a different number, no name, like you wouldn't know who they are. No stickers on the helmets, yeah, yeah, yeah. And again, people would lose their mind in that scenario. But that like for the audience listening, and this is why I'm bringing it up. That's what an unbiased tryout would look like. Right, right. So, so when you say at home, I wish these were less biased, yeah. I want you to understand that like there's also an opposite to that, right? I do think they need to lean that way, all right, because there are also intangibles and e-valves. You know a kid, you know the family. You know, I just wrote a note down here for the parents listening, right? One of the things I know I talk a lot about with my coaching and my coaching and staff is the difference between a hockey player and a kid who's playing hockey. All right, those are different things, all right. And and there's no skating drill at tryout that's gonna show me that, right? And by the way, I also say this too neither one of those things is a right or wrong thing. These are kids we're talking about, right? If a kid's playing hockey for just enjoyment, again, a kid who plays hockey, there's nothing wrong with that. All right, adversely, if there's a kid who's a hockey player and that means that they are dying, get in the corner, they're obsessed. There's nothing wrong with that, right? But I've I've got to see that on the ice somehow, right? Or maybe you don't see it on the ice, Gabe, right? Maybe that's that you said, that's what I'm seeing throughout the season. That kid's a gamer. Also, as a coach, the transformation of a kid from someone who plays hockey into a hockey player, right? I can think about uh especially when I do the high-level hockey, you know, when I get a we'll say like a teenager come into the mix with uh uh 20-year-olds, which which happens in national team training camp, right? There's a lot of this. Like there's the there's the youth hockey mentality that comes in when it can't be there, or the idea that, you know, oh, I'm a hockey player, but you're not hungry enough yet. I also ask myself, do you have the potential to grow into this version of yourself? Now, to me, Gabe, that's real coaching, right? Is can I help you find your potential? Because I'm driven to do that with every athlete I coach. And I think that some coaches are dismissive and it blows my mind, especially in youth hockey. Well, that kid, that kid's just lazy, doesn't care. Well, maybe true. Don't get me wrong, that may be true. There are kids out there like that. I look at a kid like that going, but is there more there that we can get out of that kid? Because that's that's what I want, right? So I'm bringing this back to evaluations. You know, we've talked a lot about what coaches should be looking for, what evaluators should be looking for. What should the coach's mindset be? And I'm not talking about the evaluators so much. I'm talking about the coach's mindset be when they're looking at a player saying, that kid didn't score that great, but I can get them from a two to a three, right? Or three to a four, whatever, whatever the scale is, right? Um, how do you do that? Well, what's your thoughts on that? I should say.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

Well, I I think this goes back to a little bit what we talked about earlier, the coach evaluations throughout a season. Yeah. If you can lean on the evaluations from last year's coaching staff, you can say this kid in his technical skills, he was pretty good. And he was pretty similar to the rest of his team, kind of a bubble player. But the the intangibles that that coach scored, that player on work, work ethic, compete, attitude, uh, leadership, coachability, all of those intangibles that you're not going to see at an hour-long tryout. If you can look at that, that's how you can then help your help to make sure you have the right kids on those teams. Right. And that coach, then, if you can provide that data from the tryout or from last year's uh coach feedback, he can then he or she can take that data and know exactly where that player needs to develop. Like this kid has an attitude problem. Let's address this up front with them. Let's make sure that they're sorry.

SPEAKER_01 31:33

I'm sorry to cut you off. I'm just thinking out loud here because you're making me think, right? You know, I think another part of this too, Gabe, is like having the right coach in the right place, right? So uh there's we don't talk about this enough on the show. There's different types of coaches, right? There's coaches that are much more win-oriented, which is not again, it's obviously hockey is about the life skills. We've we've talked about that over 500 episodes. You all know that. But like, yeah, sometimes you want a coach who's a little more win-focused, right? There's also coaches that are more people focused, more development focused. Um, you know, that again can take a kid uh that that maybe has a little bit of a harder time learning and help that kid, right? So I'm I'm just thinking here too out loud about how picking the right coach for the right team is also pretty important. And we always come into the season knowing who the coaches are already, which I'm I'm wondering now if is that is that the right way to do it, right? Of well, we know who the double-A coach is already. Well, that guy's not great at developing players, he's great at at tactical stuff. That again, that's a topic for another episode. But I think about that too, right? We're evaluating the kids. What about evaluating the coaching to make sure we have the right coach in the right spot?

SPEAKER_00 32:36

Yeah, we we see that across all sports. The yeah, some people call it coach mentorship programs, where there's a coaching director who will give feedback to the coaches throughout their season and make sure that they're doing the right things, showing up on time, communicating with the parents and players, uh, and making sure that they're they're developing too. That coach shouldn't be stagnant. They need to be getting better in every facet of the game because that's what makes the players better. And that goes all the way up to the AHL level, right? Like even the AHL is a development league. Like those coaches should know how to develop players for the NHL. Not until you get to the NHL or the Olympics do you really have all that matters is winning for those leagues. But those are the two or three, yeah, that really are at that level.

SPEAKER_04 33:21

All right. I really like to get into the topic of helping players be their very best at tryouts because nerves can get the best of you, right? So a player's walking into tryouts, help them prepare physically, mentally. How can they put on the best show possible at tryouts? How can they be performing at their best when nerves come into play?

SPEAKER_00 33:48

I one of the things that I love to look back on, uh I have two brothers who still play. One of them's with uh the Avalanche, other one out in Vermont playing Division I. And so I I wasn't the best hockey player growing up, but I saw everything that they did that got them to that next level. And the biggest thing for them was they were always prepared for tryouts. They put in the work throughout the season or the offseason to make sure they had that stack of proof that they are a player who should be on the top team. Their work ethic was second to none. So that for sure is I think number one. Number two, that week of tryouts, like make sure you're feeling properly. Make sure you're not overworked going into tryouts. Make sure that you have mentally prepared. I wouldn't be on a screen for you know a few hours at least before your tryouts, night before, get a good night's sleep, electrolytes, uh, carbs. I mean, people know this, they just don't always put it in. Yeah, true. So do everything you can to prepare for that moment, and you're gonna be so much more confident going into it, knowing that you are a player who should be on that top team. So that's I always like to lead with that when I'm talking to athletes or coaches who are trying to prepare their players for tryouts. But once you get to that check-in desk, just making sure you're there on time, uh, making sure that your skates are sharpened, that your your uh stick is taped beforehand. Don't switch anything up either. Like, don't treat that tryout any differently than you would have treated a game in the summer, the offseason.

SPEAKER_01 35:19

Right.

SPEAKER_00 35:19

And uh then just do your thing. When you're when you're out there, don't be nervous. You're you're a hockey player, you know what to do. And uh it's just at that point executing. The nerves are gonna be there, of course, at any tryout, but that's uh just deep breaths and and do your thing.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

Gabe, I always say nerves are there because you care. You you're nervous because you care. If you were if you were not nervous, look, I I don't care who you are, I don't care if you're the best player in your organization. When you show up to an eval, you're gonna feel something.

SPEAKER_04 35:48

If you didn't, you shouldn't be there, right?

SPEAKER_01 35:51

Right. If if it's yeah, you should be at a different level if you're not feeling something. Um actually, I would make the I would make the case that the kids who show up not feeling something do not have a good eval. All right. And I've I've seen top players show up going, I'm gonna make the top team and not make the top team. The other thing you said too is this, and I really want to, parents, I want you to share this with your kids, right? It's it's not gonna happen where the mindset is, well, I'm gonna show up and I'm just gonna work harder than I've ever worked in my life and make this team. That's an all the time thing. And that's where I think people miss the mark, right? You don't show up to a tryout and just all of a sudden you're a different player. I said that early in the episode. This comes from continued mindset, physical ability. You're showing up to the games, the practices, the same way, consistently, as often as you can, right? You're not always gonna have a great day. I'm not saying this is like all the time a million percent, but I'm saying if you do that consistency every time you're on the ice or try to, when the eval rolls around, it's gonna be there. You'll be able to tap into it. Tom Brady always talks about he didn't care if it was a rapid practice in the middle of the regular season or the Super Bowl, it was always the Super Bowl in his mind. And gang, I believe him when he says that. When you watch his practice footage, right? And again, Tom Brady's a high standard, obviously, but when you watch that guy play, it didn't matter what he was doing. He was at the level all the time. Kids probably will not reach that level at 10, but we can encourage them to do that by saying things like, hey, how you approach practice is how you're gonna approach a game, how you approach your games is how you're gonna approach big moments, how you approach big moments is how you're gonna succeed. Kids will take that stuff in, and it will take just one disclaimer, parents, it's gonna take you 477 times to say it before it clicks, but that's our job. It will click. It will click. 477.

SPEAKER_02 37:48

Yeah, it will click.

SPEAKER_04 37:50

Um, I love what you said about showing up on time that is so important because I've, you know, I've seen some of these trials where kids come in at the last minute, they're disorganized, and they have a terrible email because they're rugged, they're not thinking clearly. But just some of those simple things about being on time, being polite, making sure you're carried in your own bag, not happy mom and dad carrying it.

SPEAKER_01 38:18

That one bugs me.

SPEAKER_04 38:19

Yeah, all those little things that a coach sees at is gonna say, Well, this kid's on the ball. Um, I can really, I think we're our team would benefit with someone like that on our team.

unknown 38:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:31

Yeah. I so my dad actually coached us kids growing up, and he had three rules that he taught to hundreds of kids over the years, and it still sticks with many of us. That first rule, you gotta listen to the coach, right? In a tryout scenario, listen to the coach. Because if you do that first drill wrong, you're the first guy up or gal up and you're you're doing that wrong, that's gonna look really bad to the evaluators. So make sure you listen to the coaches. Second one, always work your hardest. And that third rule is have fun at a tryout. It's still hockey, right? Like, don't be goofing around too much, but make sure you're having fun out there because most likely throughout the season, at a game, hopefully you're having fun then too. So that's I think three rules that that apply to practice, games, tryouts, you name it. It's three great rules you can follow.

SPEAKER_01 39:17

Yeah, it's funny, Gabe. You know, what I tell my kids for tryouts, again, they're on the younger well, not so much anymore, right? Christy, like my son's uh almost 13 now. But early on, what I did, uh, and I do like to share this advice, it it's not for everybody, but when we were going to evals, I didn't paint it up that big in their minds. I wasn't like, listen, this is the evaluation that's going to choose your future. Like, I didn't do things like that. I just said things like, yeah, hey, listen, uh, like you know, you're gonna skate around with your friends, uh, you gotta work hard. Same things you said, you gotta work hard. You know, people are gonna be watching you, they're gonna be evaluating you just to see where you're at, right? And and it's gonna involve picking teams for next year. But no, it's no big deal. Go out there and just do your best. You have to do your best. And they my they match that energy of oh, I'm gonna go out there and do my best. And if if if they didn't, I would tell them, but I didn't paint it up bigger than it was because I don't want them to be a ball of anxiety for the eval. And the reason I do that, parents, is because by the time the evals actually matter, later down the line, they don't matter as much as you think when they're younger. I don't know how to say that enough. Yeah, but down the line, when they do matter, they know that sure. 15, you know exactly where you're going, right? Like it's but I've built up the you know what we don't approach uh trials or evals with this level of anxiety. You will show up prepared, I will help you be prepared, and you will do what you do, and what happens will happen. Right. I think I think that's how you got to prepare your kids at a younger age, okay? They will put enough pressure on themselves when they're old enough.

SPEAKER_04 40:50

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:51

Yeah. And speaking to the parents, too, I I think there's some of those responsibilities that we laid out for the players that are your responsibilities as a parent. You're the one that's driving them to the trial. You're the you're responsible for getting them there on time. You can help them prepare with the right foods, with electrolytes, with different hydration tactics. That's a lot of that is on you to teach them. And unfortunately, hockey, it's difficult. We all I had plenty of uh experiences of this growing up, but a few parents kind of overstep their boundaries, right? And how so? Yeah, so he's beset. Everybody knows what I'm talking about, but I'll say it. Uh, yes, so what I've seen is the parent will be the loudest one in the room after tryouts. They'll be angry at the board, they'll uh maybe wonder, even if it's their kid might have made the top team, but they're upset about some other kid who made the team. Sure. Like that is not your responsibility. Your responsibility is to get your kid there and trust the coach is gonna do a good job. And when that kid gets home, be nothing but positive for that player because you have the opportunity to either burn that kid out or to help them develop and be a support system that they need at home. That the work is gonna be done in the locker room and on the ice, and that's not your responsibility. Your responsibility is to make sure the kid has the resources that that they need to be a better player. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:19

Well, you know, if my kid didn't make the team, it's because the team was already picked.

SPEAKER_00 42:22

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You've heard that a few times, I'm sure. Oh, many times. Yeah, and that's where having the data after a trial for a board or a coach is so important because you can justify those player placement decisions. Right.

SPEAKER_01 42:37

Yeah. I was just gonna add to that too, that you know, I don't know how to say this nicely, so I'm just gonna kind of say it like goes back to the communication piece. Sure. Parents, I don't care how how long you played, I don't care what level you played. If you don't know what they're evaluating on, you do not know what's going on. Right. And you can sit in the stands as a ball of anxiety, watching and guessing everything that they're doing. Or look, I've seen parents like, well, he's looking at that kid, not looking at my kid. You have no idea what's going on because because you don't know what's going on. I don't know what's going on when I'm at an eval. I mean, I can guess, yeah, but I try not to do that. So, again, kind of rounding things out a little bit. That's why it's important that coaches and organizations do explain to parents here's what we're looking for. And look, that can also be done in an email. All right. I I think it's better to be done in person. So it can be done in an email or a handout when you walk in. Like these are the things we're looking for.

SPEAKER_04 43:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:24

Right. And then the parents can have that kind of I'll I'll say this if if I hand out a note before an eval, these are the five things we're gonna be looking at today, all right? Or these are how we're gonna be evaluating your players. I find that parents actually flip and become a little more in a positive way critical of their kids' performance than our performance as evaluators. So if we tell them, hey, we're gonna be looking at edge work today and how your kid does edges, well, the parents are gonna be watching their kid thinking, all right, well, they're looking at edge work. If your kid's having a hard time with edges, that kind of eliminates the well, the team was picked already mentality because now you know that's going on. And again, coaches and and organizers, I know it's a little scary to hand information like that out, all right, because I can understand like keeping it close to the chest. I I don't have a problem, I just don't have a problem sharing if someone wants to know, yeah, this is what we're looking at. And when I when I sat down, Christy Gabe, when I sat down for my meetings, those four hours of meetings, I started every conversation of we rated everybody on a one to five scale, five being mastery, one meaning needs massive improvement on these aspects skating, passing, hockey IQ, compete, and and I forget what the fifth one was, right? Uh shot ability. That's what we graded you on. These are your scores. This is my feedback. Can I show you how to improve on this? No one said, Well, I just didn't, yeah, team was picked already. No one said that to me because I'm giving you the information. So I just think I'm talking a lot here. I'm just saying that that parents, I'm gonna be blunt with you. You have no idea what's going on to wear an eval. I'm trying to ease your anxiety because you need to know that and stop reading into everything. I how about this one, Gabe? Right? Well, they split the teams up, they split them into three groups, and my kid's with the bad kids, and that kid's with the good. You have no idea why they've done that. Right. No idea.

unknown 45:15

It could be

SPEAKER_01 45:15

They could be looking for they might be seeing how good of a leader your kid is with the kids who aren't as talented. You have no idea why they're doing what they're doing.

SPEAKER_04 45:23

Right.

SPEAKER_01 45:23

Calm down. I'm getting ideas.

SPEAKER_04 45:25

Look at me again. It's easy to get all worked up about stuff that you don't really have the inside perspective of.

SPEAKER_01 45:34

I just think at the end of the day, I majority. I'm not going to say this is 100%. All right. But I think a majority of organizations and coaches are really trying to do a good job. Sure. All right. I disbelieve that. I don't I don't think coaches are out to get kids. It does happen. I'm not, but it's it's it's more rare than I think we we make it sound. Right? Like, and how about this, Gabe? How about this for a question, right? I'll say, can evaluators and coaches make a mistake at an eval. You touched on that before. Can a kid get a horrible eval and it's not fair? Does that happen?

SPEAKER_00 46:09

I mean, it's an hour. A lot of those trials are an hour long, and maybe you only have two or three sessions at the most in some of these cases. So absolutely. And a kid can have a bad day too. Here in Minnesota, a lot of associations don't allow the parents into the rink to watch. They'll actually blow they'll put tape up or paper up, yeah, over the doors because otherwise parents will be peeking in. Yeah. Yeah. And so you don't know what that coach is looking for, like you said. But even coaches make mistakes. And unfortunately, even if your kid is placed on the wrong team, uh, it's just it's your responsibility to make sure that kid seizes that opportunity to take a leadership role, to get more ice time and to become a better player and improve on what they need to improve on for the following year. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:53

And it can be poor evaluators too. Like I gotta say, some evaluators are better than other evaluators. And look, that's life, guys. That's gonna happen in life. It's I I I would say I'm not gonna give the life's not fair speech. Right. Right, but that happens.

SPEAKER_04 47:06

Yeah. And your kids may have tender hearts, and it could be just so it feels like it's the end of the world to them, right? If they don't make a certain team, but you have to really prop them up and tell them, well, maybe there's another opportunity for you with another team. And this happened with my daughter's near heart was set on making this triple A team. She didn't make it. We found another team for her. And honestly, she probably would have sat on the bench with that AAA team for a good part of the season. This other team that we found that actually welcomed her with open arms. She ended up being the captain. She had a lot of incredible amount of mice and time and developed her creativity. She became a strong creative hockey player with leadership developing um abilities, which launched her onto the next track. She made the AAA team. But that year of development was so important for her. She didn't see it at the time when she was told you didn't make the team. It was just crushing. It's your role as a parent to say, well, there's another opportunity for you. Let's find it. And this could be a really good opportunity for you to become an even stronger hockey player. So all is not lost if you get cut from a team. There might be another opportunity for your kid that will help develop them into this just fantastic player. And then Sophia went on to play college hockey, which um, yeah, so you can turn things around.

SPEAKER_01 48:49

I'll say it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:51

So, you know, all is not lost if you don't make a team and it's not the end of the world. And it's really important for parents to step in and make sure their kids know that.

SPEAKER_00 49:01

There's a lot of great stories out there like that. I I talk to whenever I hear parents frustrated about the team their kids on this year, or they didn't make a team. I I like to tell the story about my brother, uh Sam, who's now with the Avalanche. But Sam Sam made the he made the B team in squirts, which is like U10 or something, right? So nothing crazy there. But he made that B team. He kind of started to become a leader on that team. Sophomore year of high school. He was starting on the varsity team, but he had zero points the whole season. He he always says he couldn't do that again if he tried because he'd pick up a secondary assist somewhere. But uh went on to juniors, played in the got cut by a few USHL teams during tryouts, made a team, and got cut by that team at Christmas and went to the NHL playing in Bismarck. Right. Yeah, mid-season. Uh, really, really kind of we were all just distraught by it, thinking, all right, that's that's the end of the line.

SPEAKER_04 49:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:59

And he took that opportunity, he adjusted, he set his goals for that year. I actually met with him that that week and said, let's set some goals. Like, what are you gonna do in Bismarck to try to achieve what you want to achieve in this sport? So he set specific goals and he hit those. And he didn't just become a better player there, he actually expanded into not just becoming a defensive defenseman, but becoming an offensive defenseman, scoring some goals and finding a new part of his game that he had never needed beforehand on those top teams. Went on to Cornell and eventually worked his way into the AHL and now the NHL undrafted, and just a really cool story. But he's one of those examples of kids who, if you have the right mindset, if you work hard and you just stay motivated and have that right support system, which parents, that's your role, right? Your role is to be the support system. Uh, you can you can go on to whatever level you want to, and and it's not always gonna happen. Timing is important for sure, but that's that's sports.

SPEAKER_04 51:00

What a great story with your brother. And my son is a huge avalanche fan, so I can't wait to share that with him.

SPEAKER_01 51:07

I I love about this story too, is that I think one of the misnomers about this is not even just hockey, just sports in general, is it's so important to have goals and understand that those goals are going to change and just to go from youth to pro really quick, right? In youth, it's like you could be a different height every year, you could be a different strength level every year. Like aspects of your body change so rapidly in youth hockey that it can absolutely change the type of player you're gonna be on the ice. I grew five inches in one year once and went from like being a winger to a power center, like it was like a complete change, but it helped me grow this uh uh a learning mindset. And then on the other end of it, and this is this is the end that kids you never think about, which you don't need to think about. When you start getting up into your 30s, if you're still playing, your body's going to change again. All right, and you're your things change, you slow down, things happen, and you have to alter your game to match where you're at. Obviously, you want to maintain a peak level of uh fitness, but 25 and 35 are different players, so that evaluate. I'm sorry, that that uh of evolution is what I'm trying to say of being better, learning, putting more tools in your toolbox is important. And I think bringing this back to the episode, you can learn some of these things in an eval because in an eval you can see what other people are providing, right? And I I I remember any time I was on the ice, Gabe, and there were players better than me, which was which was you know a lot. I I I try to see, well, what are they better at and how do I get that skill? It wasn't uh they're better than me. Oh no, it was I wanted to get better, right? So I I want to merge this into this for the final question here. Like talk about a lot of interesting things today, but I want to talk about uh technology as a tool as well, because every everybody's trying to get better, right? And there's never been as many ways to get better. Uh, you know, tech has become a part of every aspect of sports now, right? And I'm I'm I'm wondering, you know, with tools like Team Genius, how do they fit in the eval process? And like what should technology help coaches do better, right? And because there's human decisions, and now there's we'll use the word AI, which not everybody loves, but there's human decisions and then there's non-human decisions, right? How's Team Genius doing that? And what is your thoughts on that? Like, what decisions should humans be making versus uh you know technology?

SPEAKER_00 53:23

Well, we've always steered away from making a decision for an organization. Like we could have built in an AI tool that forms your teams for you, but we're not gonna take that responsibility because at the end of the day, there are certain roles that each player needs to play on a team. You need to fill on each team. So I don't think that it's it's our responsibility to do that. Now, what we've done with Team Genius is over the last 10 years, we've worked with thousands of organizations and we've gathered feedback from every single one of them. As soon as a tryout ends, we ask them, what did you like about the tool? What could we improve on? And what we've created now, and what I think others should be doing, whether it's with Team Genius or just in your Excel spreadsheets or whatever systems you're using, don't just stop after tryouts. Do the coach evaluations to gather additional metrics on your players, communicate that to them. We just actually launched a tool now where you can have the players assess themselves, player self-assessments. Uh, that's something that I think hockey associations could take from soccer clubs out there who are really big into player self-assessments. That way you can make sure the coaches and the players are on the same page, and you might be able to identify some of those players who maybe think they're a little bit better than they are, or think that they're totally unflawed and just the best player on the team. So you can get ahead of some of those things if you are asking for the feedback from the players, from the coaches during tryouts, and bringing all those together to create an overall picture on each of your players, tracking their development year after year, doing some sort of camper combine in the offseason to help them see the improvement that they're actually getting from playing with your programs. So I I think evaluations go so far beyond just tryouts, and more people need to start to adopt that. And and really that's what's gonna lead them to supporting their players in in better ways. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 55:20

It's a great way of looking at it because that side of things is not gonna stop evolving, right?

SPEAKER_04 55:25

And yeah, where do you see it going, Gabe?

SPEAKER_00 55:28

Oh, I I think we're gonna see more and more quantitative metrics with trends. Actually, so we were acquired two years ago by a company called Human Powered Health who does athlete testing and longevity testing in three of uh three labs across the country. We've got a location in Edina, Minnesota, Boston, and Scottsdale. And uh, so we're seeing a lot of athletes show up to our labs for think like NHL Combine type of testing. And they say, I want to get to the next level, I want to go D1, or I want to go to the pros, or I'm in this pro league and I want to get to the next level. Uh, whatever it is, they show up and they want the data on their body because we're starting to understand how to use that data in order to help the players develop and show normative metrics because there's more of this data being collected. So you can tell them based on your VO2 max or your wing gate test, rather, you could this is how you compare to division one players. So you need to improve your cardio or you need to get stronger. Your first three strides are so important. So force plate testing is one of those that we do for these athletes. And I think that's probably where we're headed is more quantitative metrics being captured on even players probably 14, age 14, and up. And that's sort of what we're starting to prepare for. So I do feel confident that's probably the direction that that this stuff is going.

SPEAKER_02 56:52

Yeah, I'll say this.

SPEAKER_01 56:56

I always like to give this when when I think that's fantastic information. And I think with the parents listening specifically, I know parents that will hear that and be like, Well, I gotta get my kid into max. And the thing is this like it's data, it's information, all right. Follow me, parents. You want as much information as you can get to help your kids improve. The key though is the kid has to want that too. Yes, all right. So if you're dragging your 14-year-old to a testing site and the kid's like, Dad, I just want to I want to watch the game. Yeah, you know, like that's you gotta be careful. That parents, that's an ego thing. That means it's your dream, right? And now, if a kid, my kid comes up to me and goes, Dad, listen, there's this training facility that's got all this tech, it's gonna tell me all these things about myself. I really want to do it. Well, that will pique my interest as a parent, yeah, right? But the kids gotta want it, gang. They gotta want it. You gotta, you gotta just because this is exciting information for me as a coach, like, oh wow, I could really use this. Kids gotta want it. I just want to make sure we say that, right? But it's amazing stuff, amazing technology. I'm gonna say it again. This is only going to evolve. So the other thing we got to talk about is don't parents, don't ignore it, right? Don't, don't. The most dangerous phrase in the English language is this is the way we've always done it. Right. You hear an organization say that, run. Right? You don't want to hear that. The stuff that Gabe is doing in the gang over at Team Genius is not just the future, it's where we're at now. Like the top teams are doing this. So, Gabe, just fantastic stuff. I really appreciate you joining us today. I think this is a really engaging conversation, not just about the technology, but how parents, coaches, and players should be looking at evals, how a good Eval looks, how a bad Eval looks. Just fantastic job today.

SPEAKER_00 58:39

Yeah, no, I appreciate you both shining light on this topic. I think it's really important. This is how we keep kids engaged and parents engaged in hockey. And uh, I'll steal a phrase from one of my good friends, James Murray from Everything College Hockey. He says, This is the best game in the world. This is the most exciting game. This should be the biggest game in the world. The only way we continue to grow it is by supporting the kids however we can. And um, I appreciate you both being a part of that. Well, we appreciate you too.

SPEAKER_04 59:09

Dave, thank you so much. What a great conversation. We really, really shared some important information, and the timing is perfect as we headed to tryouts now for so many kids.

SPEAKER_01 59:19

Yep. Yeah. All right, gang, we're gonna put the Team Genius info in the show notes. If uh if you're not well, if you're here still, you probably want to get that. So go ahead to the show notes and uh you can learn more about Team Genius. But that's gonna do it for this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Remember, you can email us team at our kidsplayhockey.com. You can text us via the uh link in the description for this episode as well. We love hearing from you. We get a lot of messages on the back end now. I do want to let all of you know that we only get a short amount of characters to respond. So if you want to email us, make sure that's how I can give you a full response. Otherwise, you're gonna get a very short text back from us. So uh that's where we're at today. But for Gabe, for Christie, I'm Lee. We'll see you on the next episode of Our Kids Play Hockey. Take care, everybody, and have fun playing the best game in the world. Take care. We hope you enjoyed this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or our website, our kidsplayhockey.com. Also, make sure to check out our children's book, When Hockey Stops, at When Hockey Stops.com. It's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much for listening to this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey, and we'll see you on the next episode.